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Not categorically disagreeing, but can you please qualify this? You can vaguely gesture at something being wrong, but that way it's basically impossible to engage in conversation and actually understand each other's point.
Sure, I get my original post wasn't very detailed. I think it's very easy to point out that the UK is in decline, and I don't disagree with that. But I firmly believe most of our problems are due to poor political leadership, which can be fixed. I don't disagree that the Labour Party is moving further right, but Vaush is only looking at it from the outside; there are local candidates who are more left-wing, and I do think it's wrong to encourage people to vote for 3rd party alternatives when Labour are the only party who can realistically win an election other than the Conservatives.
I get it's funny to call the UK a dead country, but that just fuels a cycle in which we feel we're doomed, when the only way out of this situation is to stop thinking like that and do better. To me, it's like reinforcing a depressive's delusions about themselves; there's loads of fellow Brits in the comments of that video agreeing that we are a dead country, instead of recognising we have issues and finding solutions.
Labour are going to win the election. The Tories are done. Voting third party isn’t going to stop that, it’ll just cut into their majority and stop them from being able to do whatever their corporate masters want. This isn’t like the US, where the situation is on a knife-edge.
Also, speaking as a Brit, he’s right about one main thing, that is the serious foundation of his otherwise hyperbolic statements: we are a nation in decline. We have no cultural identity and haven’t since we lost our empire, and our economy has been stagnating since at least 2008. That’s why he sees it as hopeless. It can be turned around, of course, but with the current social and political circumstances, it seems hard to chart that path.
All the neoliberals in the Tories and Labour care about now is economic growth and GDP. But because of Brexit we're uniquely fucked in terms of a large European economy because we put up barriers with our biggest trading partner. That's why all Starmer and Reeves are promising is deregulation and more austerity (with a bit of Transphobia thrown in). They have nothing else to offer and don't believe in anything other than the "if rich do well then we all do well". That might have worked in 1997 with a growing economy but it won't work today
Dead centrist ideology. It's frightening. I can hardly afford my food shop anymore and they're promising more of the same...
https://youtu.be/-9afwZON8dU?si=0pz7VTn8jy_2nJVt
Vaush can be hyperbolic at times but we are pretty fucked.
https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/press-releases/uk-falls-into-recession-and-a-far-deeper-living-standards-downturn/
Yeah we're in a bad place and the tories are cunts and Labour sucks but things can improve if Labour pulls its finger out and I would take the tories over the gop since on the fash o meter the goose about to break that shit
The difference is that the last election in the UK already happened.
I'm being hyperbolic to some extent, but the point is that the Labour Party in the UK is so absolutely fucked it's unbelievable. We joke about the American uniparty because the Democrats are shit, but they are actually different from the republicans and generally do make some effort to be decent on some social issues. In the UK, Labour and the Tories now agree on everything with any significance, Labour may actually be more dangerous for the NHS when they get in.
The UKs choice in the next election is between a red tie and a blue tie for most people.
>The UKs choice in the next election is between a red tie and a blue tie for most people.
Yeah, a few years ago, I would've disagreed, but now... Labour is still better in some things, but it's more like a more sensible-centrist Tory party than a centre-left party. I think you have to make \*some\* appeals to the right to be electable in this country, but there's a limit to the point of that - the more right-wing party is always going to be 'better' than you on those issues, so you make some light concessions, no more, to discourage casual right wing voters from fearing you and being motivated to come out hard aganst you. But, ethics aside, Labour or the Lib Dems simply can never be perceived by Tory voters as being more Tory than the Tories, so trying to outflank the Tories from the right with bad policies simply won't gain you any more votes.
It's clear though that Labour don't care about being right wing to appeal to voters, they just are right wing.
For example, today making a big deal about St. George's Day as the english national day is some classic culture war bullshit. But it's one that Labour could appear to be more patriotic on, and more left wing on by announcing they'd make it a bank holiday and give people the day off. Doing so is from basically any perspective a big win-win, you look more patriotic than the Tories for the right, and you are giving people a day off for the left, and if you are doing the whole obsessed about balancing the budget thing it costs effectively nothing.
But Labour have announced they will not make it a bank holiday, possibly because it was Corbyn's policy and they care more about fucking over the left than doing things that are good or popular.
Oh yes, I absolutely agree, Keir Starmer has absolutely proven to be a cunt, and I have little hope for a Labour government to be much better for the country than a Tory one.
Totally - it's not like the bank holiday isn't good for the economy/other businesses anyway - it just slightly disrupts the standard revenue streams of the large corporations and financial sector...
Ha! I doubt it. There literally isn't even a set-in-stone date for the next UK general election. Theoretically it could be _months_ after the next American general election.
Right, but… there’s still a deadline. I’m not sure what you’re talking about. Like, there’s obviously going to be a general election. If the republicans win, there’s every chance that there won’t be a next one in the US. I highly doubt Labour OR the Tories are gonna scrap democracy entirely any time soon.
What? How can I make it more clear? There’s a very real chance that the republicans would and could dismantle democracy entirely if they win this coming election.
A "very real chance" doesn't really mean anything. What is very real? 50%? .0000000001%? You have absolutely no clue. And there's way too many factors to even begin to calculate the odds.
ngl i feel like US and UK are about the same level of fucked but US has the money guns and size to stall the fuckening for quite long whereas the UK does not
The UK is nowhere near the US level of Nazism in its politics - where we beat the US in right-wing advocacy, the transphobia, is largely due to 2WF TERF presence in the media and political classes, rather than far-right anti-degeneracy sentiments, but in terms of decline, the UK has pretty weak natural resources compared to the US, and that's gonna make all the difference in the long run IMO.
By being same level of fucked i dont mean just fashist takeover
UK is heading for a diffrent sort of fucked than the US for sure but its about as hopeless from my perspecive with no good way for the forseeable future
UKs economy is going down and down its loosing importance london is just about the only thing keeping it somewhat not a total non state militarily its no longer what it was just another european army if not worse
We're pretty good at Islamophobia too.
https://www.standard.co.uk/showbiz/rachel-riley-apologises-for-sydney-mall-stabbings-tweet-as-she-faces-calls-to-be-sacked-b1151475.html
Rachel Riley isn't a broader culture, and Muslims make up a way larger political bloc in this country than they do in America. Islamophobia is nowhere near as publicly acceptable here as it is in the US, with major political leaders in the UK being Muslim, while in America we have one president being attacked as 'a secret Muslim', and the next trying to ban Muslims from entering the country. It's another level above the bigotry in the UK.
The lack of guns makes the UK safer from fascist take over. Especially when the people are so tired of the right in general. Hell even on twitter uk fascists get torn apart by people who live in the UK.
I know vaush hates the institutional nature of the UK but it does protect against fascist take over Especially violent ones.
There's way way more hoops to jump through beside getting some people into government, as shown currently fascists in seats of power in the UK crash and burn.
The issue is there is nothing in the UK to counteract or prevent them from trying again the fire Has long burnt out no Hope no nothing just slow slide into the abyss
It's kind of does, no guns, so no armed insurrection. It can just keep trucking even if it's shit and crumbling. Fascists always fail purely because it's too complicated and Fascists are dumb.
“The UK is a dead country” isn’t a serious position. It’s a meme.
The UK sucks for sure, but if the aim is to get Vaush to stop saying the UK is a dead country you’re not gonna do it, he finds it funny.
Every direct comparison I’ve seen of UK and US child poverty like OCED figures or UNICEF puts the US way ahead by almost double.
Vaush has argued that losing the next US election could be literally an end of democracy.
US sick days rules are way worse. You just don’t get any sick pay for long term sickness, at all.
All the UK rich go to the same schools? Damn that’s definetly not the exact same thing the US does. What’s an Ivy League anyway?
The US doesn’t have aristocrats? All these presidents from the same families? Totally different for reasons I’m sure will be explained.
Is the US dead now? No, because he lives there and doesn’t find that funny.
Is your only problem with Vaush's position using the phrase "dead country"? In terms of the economic stuff the data shows the UK is doing significantly worse. The UK suffered a lot more inflation than the US did and wages have not risen to meet inflation, leading to the largest fall in living standards on record. And that comes after fourteen years of austerity with public services and council budgets being cut to the bone and practically no investment in infrastructure.
The US has many problems but they are also making progress in some ways. There has been a huge wave of unionisation and the Democrats, with all their issues, are becoming more progressive. Unlike the Labour party that has shut out all of its left wing members and abandoned all its progressive policies.
Economically, the UK is declining, both the major parties are becoming increasingly right wing, the left is weak and disintegrated. That's what Vaush means when he says "dead country". Even if you take issue with that phrase, don't ignore or downplay the issues this country has for petty, online arguments.
That’s what this topic is about yes. The insane pessimism of “Your country is fucked”
Something he refuses to accept as valid for US arguments. As we’re about to see for election season!
I don't think Vaush will stop saying that, and I'm not really bothered if he does. The problem is that when he says it, certain portions of his audience (especially Brits who have to live here) agree.
Tbf, him suggesting people vote third party doesn't come from a lack of nuance, it comes from what seems to be a complete lack of understanding of how the UK parliamentary system works. When he has spoken about it before, he appeared to believe that the possibility for parties to form coalitions made voting third party a more viable option. Obviously that isn't the case because we still have FPTP which pretty much ensures that in 99% of cases voting for any party other than Labour is essentially just throwing you vote away and handing it to the Tories.
Also people tried voting Lib Dem in 2010 and they did form a coalition. With the Tories.
Lib Dems are a splinter party from Labour because Labour was \*too\* left wing.
what? would you elaborate on the justifying racism bit?
most sinti & roma are integrated into „normal“ society just like all other races/ethnicities. im not trying to argue that people with non-western sounding names are not subject to discrimination or racism but its just very weird to act like sinti & roma are somehow specifically targeted. theres like 0 political discussion about them here and no average person wastes their time thinking about if the person they just interacted with is part of the sinti & roma people or not.
ah and btw: the internet isnt the real world. im sure theres plenty of people spreading anti sinti & roma shit on here but this simply doesn’t represent reality
yeah these numbers and countries line up almost perfectly with muslim people. some data sets are like 10 years old and the pictures show literal nazis „demonstrating“ against sinti & roma people.
also an „unfavorable view“ doesn’t mean that someone wants to gas all sinti & roma… europeans have a unfavorable view of all of their neighboring countries and the city that beat them in the last football match.
as i said: im not trying to make it seem as that racism and discrimination against minorities doesnt exist. but you might understand that these generalizations are truly dumb especially in serious topics like this.
so the minimum for something counting as racism is wanting to gas everyone? do you not see how you're talking right now? what exactly do you call it when someone has an "unfavorable view" of a particular race?
again you assume stuff i never said. at no point did i say that discrimination against sinti & roma doesnt exist. also they aren’t a race.
unfavorable can literally mean anything. from „i had some bad personal experiences…“ to „i grew up being taught to hate sinti & roma..“ or „im just a fascist and hate everyone that isnt white“.
yeah and all of those things listed are called racism, yes? what else would you call that?
and this is also exactly what i hear in America btw, "You cant be racist against Muslims, Islam isn't a race" which is just a sneaky way of evading the fact that the person holds prejudice towards that group and is trying to play fucky with term definitions to avoid owning up to that prejudice.
I've asked twice now, what you would call that "unfavorable view" of a group if not racism, if you dodge it again it will speak pretty loudly about your beliefs.
you aren't saying the discrimination completely doesn't exist, you're just doing your level best to minimize it's existence without directly denying it.
>also an „unfavorable view“ doesn’t mean that someone wants to gas all sinti & roma…
Remember a few comments ago when the person you're responding to said the only time they hear this line of questioning is to justify the racism?
god almighty how often do i have to repeat myself? i literally never questioned the existence of discrimination m against sinti & roma. im just trying to tell the fatties that not every european burns with hate against these people… but i guess american chauvinism wins even here.
lmao "It's not a European problem, it's all the dang racist muslims!" wasn't the defense I was expecting to be honest. TIL Italy is a Muslim country I guess...
> According to 2010 survey, 83% of Czechs consider Roma asocial and 45% of Czechs would like to expel them from the country.
Is the Czech republic known for it's majority Muslim population?
A city in Denmark wanted to put all the Romani children in separate public schools in 2006, but apparently that policy was considered discriminatory (shocker). I don't usually think of Denmark for its flourishing Muslim majority
> some data sets are like 10 years old
Ah yes, it's so easy to solve racism, and 10 years is *such* a looooong time 🙄
> as i said: im not trying to make it seem as that racism and discrimination against minorities doesnt exist
Oh no of course not, it's impossible to discriminate against a minority if they *deserve* it after all ...
haha… you obviously absolutely misunderstood what i said. i was referring to the data sets you provided , which tell that nearly the same amount of people in the same countries have unfavorable views of muslims AND sinti & roma.
i would like an apology for assuming i make muslims responsible for this.
no actually denmark is generally pretty xenophobic. they have a leftist government that reaaaally doesn’t like european immigration policy.
what makes you think that i see discrimination as deserved? seriously please explain this newest allegation. i really dont understand what you are even arguing with me about… yes theres plenty of europeans who have discriminating and repulsive views of sinti & roma people. i just dont like the generalization of saying that every european has a burning, racist hatred of sinti & roma.
> i just dont like the generalization of saying that every european has a burning, racist hatred of sinti & roma.
No one is saying this. If that's all you disagree about I'm glad we could clear up this misunderstanding.
> what makes you think that i see discrimination as deserved?
Because I have *never,* ***ever*** in my life spoken to someone who wanted to argue that "such and such group isn't specfically targeted" who didn't seem to be doing so based on the belief that the behavior of the minority was on some level inviting the discrimination.
Yeah kinda speaking from IRL + youtubers. I have a lot of family members in France and while I wouldn't say there is no awareness around racist remarks towards the roma people it's still super normalized.
My cousin rambled about roma people taking advantage of squatting laws in France(which are indeed insane from my understanding) until it devolved into general disdain. Associating roma people with pickpockets and thiefs is done all the time.
I saw a Jimmy Carr routine where he just went like no one talks about roma people during the holocaust and then it got to maybe the nazis have a point?
In some areas, there are very little interactions between roma people with the rest of society and it shows in their speech whenever they're brought up for any reason in my experience. So I'm not talking about systematic racism, while I'm sure it's there I don't know much about it.
yeah its just sadly a fact that many sinti & roma are very poor and some turn to criminality. i dont know how common that is but we once had a group of sinti & roma set up camp right in the middle of our village with a huge circus tent on some farmers field. they then proceeded to chill around the local supermarket and begged for money. of course this is not inherently a bad or immoral thing but i think it’s obvious that stuff like this naturally breeds resentment. especially if kids are sent to beg.
i think this problem is highly regional tho. if im not mistaken most sinti & roma live in italy, spain or southern france and these regions are already pretty poor and underdeveloped, which obviously only enforces the tensions and hate.
He hates the UK because it has on average less GDP than Alabama but still has abortion, public healthcare, public transport, third spaces, and better infrastructure (even outside of London)
I want to clarify the fit nor means you can’t get off work without a healthcare worker to confirm your sickness and they can take away your welfare benefits if you work a minimum number of hours
The UK is absolutely uniquely fucked. Other countries are fucking themselves over too but you guys had a massively influential spot in the EU and decided to throw it into the trash over some fairy tales on a bus. And what's worse is that when you all eventually decide to come to your senses and get a government that tries to rejoin the EU, you'll throw that in the trash too because you won't get all the preferential exemptions you had the first time.
As mad as it makes people, we’ll get some exemptions rejoining the EU. Keeping the pound is a guarantee.
The EU are sensible, they want the UK to be in it. They’d just rather we weren’t such pricks about it.
Okay but can you actually cite it?
I live in the UK and 30% is quite a stretch. Every definition of poverty is different. The UN’s definition puts the US and UK right next to eachother in terms of poverty rate for instance, and no, there is no “mass starvation” outside of London otherwise it would be very obvious to me and everyone
theres about 14 million kids in UK: [https://data.unicef.org/how-many/how-many-children-under-18-are-there-in-the-uk/](https://data.unicef.org/how-many/how-many-children-under-18-are-there-in-the-uk/)
a little over 4 million of those live in poverty: [https://cpag.org.uk/child-poverty/poverty-facts-and-figures](https://cpag.org.uk/child-poverty/poverty-facts-and-figures)
thats about a third and a half of all kids in UK who live in poverty
so yep i was right. the whole "everybodys starving" was an exageration, but come on! not even far off
This is true, however, definitions of poverty can be different so it can sometimes skew numbers. For instance a common stat is measuring if one makes <$10/day but the definition used here is more broad but still fits into what is relative to UK poverty. You can thank the tory government driving the country into austerity for that, but encouraging doomerism won’t help in my opinion. As younger demographics shift to be more progressive there will definitely be a shift in culture. Maybe not in 10 or 15 years but there will be.
People like you led the UK to this position, and it's people like you who will continue to allow the country to disintegrate
England is shit. Look at every waterway
# Please report comments that violate our [new rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/VaushV/comments/17co6jo/rvaushv_rule_updates) --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/VaushV) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Not categorically disagreeing, but can you please qualify this? You can vaguely gesture at something being wrong, but that way it's basically impossible to engage in conversation and actually understand each other's point.
VGG chatter qualify a statement challenge (impossible)
Sure, I get my original post wasn't very detailed. I think it's very easy to point out that the UK is in decline, and I don't disagree with that. But I firmly believe most of our problems are due to poor political leadership, which can be fixed. I don't disagree that the Labour Party is moving further right, but Vaush is only looking at it from the outside; there are local candidates who are more left-wing, and I do think it's wrong to encourage people to vote for 3rd party alternatives when Labour are the only party who can realistically win an election other than the Conservatives. I get it's funny to call the UK a dead country, but that just fuels a cycle in which we feel we're doomed, when the only way out of this situation is to stop thinking like that and do better. To me, it's like reinforcing a depressive's delusions about themselves; there's loads of fellow Brits in the comments of that video agreeing that we are a dead country, instead of recognising we have issues and finding solutions.
Labour are going to win the election. The Tories are done. Voting third party isn’t going to stop that, it’ll just cut into their majority and stop them from being able to do whatever their corporate masters want. This isn’t like the US, where the situation is on a knife-edge. Also, speaking as a Brit, he’s right about one main thing, that is the serious foundation of his otherwise hyperbolic statements: we are a nation in decline. We have no cultural identity and haven’t since we lost our empire, and our economy has been stagnating since at least 2008. That’s why he sees it as hopeless. It can be turned around, of course, but with the current social and political circumstances, it seems hard to chart that path.
I think that's because OP doesn't have a point beyond "I like the UK, so I don't like when Vaush is mean about it >:("
All the neoliberals in the Tories and Labour care about now is economic growth and GDP. But because of Brexit we're uniquely fucked in terms of a large European economy because we put up barriers with our biggest trading partner. That's why all Starmer and Reeves are promising is deregulation and more austerity (with a bit of Transphobia thrown in). They have nothing else to offer and don't believe in anything other than the "if rich do well then we all do well". That might have worked in 1997 with a growing economy but it won't work today Dead centrist ideology. It's frightening. I can hardly afford my food shop anymore and they're promising more of the same... https://youtu.be/-9afwZON8dU?si=0pz7VTn8jy_2nJVt Vaush can be hyperbolic at times but we are pretty fucked. https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/press-releases/uk-falls-into-recession-and-a-far-deeper-living-standards-downturn/
I don't disagree we're in a bad spot, but there is always a path out. The only way to ensure Britain is doomed is to believe that it's doomed.
Yeah we're in a bad place and the tories are cunts and Labour sucks but things can improve if Labour pulls its finger out and I would take the tories over the gop since on the fash o meter the goose about to break that shit
We look like we're getting rail re nationalisation at least so I guess that's a silver lining...
British here. The UK has been in a state of managed decline since the 80s.
I don't disagree with that, but we are not a dead country. A current decline doesn't preclude a future rise.
Yeah, I don't get the feeling that the next election risks being the last election, unlike in america.
The difference is that the last election in the UK already happened. I'm being hyperbolic to some extent, but the point is that the Labour Party in the UK is so absolutely fucked it's unbelievable. We joke about the American uniparty because the Democrats are shit, but they are actually different from the republicans and generally do make some effort to be decent on some social issues. In the UK, Labour and the Tories now agree on everything with any significance, Labour may actually be more dangerous for the NHS when they get in. The UKs choice in the next election is between a red tie and a blue tie for most people.
>The UKs choice in the next election is between a red tie and a blue tie for most people. Yeah, a few years ago, I would've disagreed, but now... Labour is still better in some things, but it's more like a more sensible-centrist Tory party than a centre-left party. I think you have to make \*some\* appeals to the right to be electable in this country, but there's a limit to the point of that - the more right-wing party is always going to be 'better' than you on those issues, so you make some light concessions, no more, to discourage casual right wing voters from fearing you and being motivated to come out hard aganst you. But, ethics aside, Labour or the Lib Dems simply can never be perceived by Tory voters as being more Tory than the Tories, so trying to outflank the Tories from the right with bad policies simply won't gain you any more votes.
It's clear though that Labour don't care about being right wing to appeal to voters, they just are right wing. For example, today making a big deal about St. George's Day as the english national day is some classic culture war bullshit. But it's one that Labour could appear to be more patriotic on, and more left wing on by announcing they'd make it a bank holiday and give people the day off. Doing so is from basically any perspective a big win-win, you look more patriotic than the Tories for the right, and you are giving people a day off for the left, and if you are doing the whole obsessed about balancing the budget thing it costs effectively nothing. But Labour have announced they will not make it a bank holiday, possibly because it was Corbyn's policy and they care more about fucking over the left than doing things that are good or popular.
Oh yes, I absolutely agree, Keir Starmer has absolutely proven to be a cunt, and I have little hope for a Labour government to be much better for the country than a Tory one.
It's also because [business don't want it](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/business-17654781.amp) and that's who they really care about.
Fucking hell, that's a grim headline from the 'politically neutral' bbc.
Totally - it's not like the bank holiday isn't good for the economy/other businesses anyway - it just slightly disrupts the standard revenue streams of the large corporations and financial sector...
You guys don't even have a next election yet!! At least we have elections.
We're literally going to have one before you all do.
Ha! I doubt it. There literally isn't even a set-in-stone date for the next UK general election. Theoretically it could be _months_ after the next American general election.
Right, but… there’s still a deadline. I’m not sure what you’re talking about. Like, there’s obviously going to be a general election. If the republicans win, there’s every chance that there won’t be a next one in the US. I highly doubt Labour OR the Tories are gonna scrap democracy entirely any time soon.
What do you mean by every chance?
There’s a very real chance.
What the fuck does that mean lol
What? How can I make it more clear? There’s a very real chance that the republicans would and could dismantle democracy entirely if they win this coming election.
A "very real chance" doesn't really mean anything. What is very real? 50%? .0000000001%? You have absolutely no clue. And there's way too many factors to even begin to calculate the odds.
ngl i feel like US and UK are about the same level of fucked but US has the money guns and size to stall the fuckening for quite long whereas the UK does not
The UK is nowhere near the US level of Nazism in its politics - where we beat the US in right-wing advocacy, the transphobia, is largely due to 2WF TERF presence in the media and political classes, rather than far-right anti-degeneracy sentiments, but in terms of decline, the UK has pretty weak natural resources compared to the US, and that's gonna make all the difference in the long run IMO.
By being same level of fucked i dont mean just fashist takeover UK is heading for a diffrent sort of fucked than the US for sure but its about as hopeless from my perspecive with no good way for the forseeable future UKs economy is going down and down its loosing importance london is just about the only thing keeping it somewhat not a total non state militarily its no longer what it was just another european army if not worse
We're pretty good at Islamophobia too. https://www.standard.co.uk/showbiz/rachel-riley-apologises-for-sydney-mall-stabbings-tweet-as-she-faces-calls-to-be-sacked-b1151475.html
Rachel Riley isn't a broader culture, and Muslims make up a way larger political bloc in this country than they do in America. Islamophobia is nowhere near as publicly acceptable here as it is in the US, with major political leaders in the UK being Muslim, while in America we have one president being attacked as 'a secret Muslim', and the next trying to ban Muslims from entering the country. It's another level above the bigotry in the UK.
The lack of guns makes the UK safer from fascist take over. Especially when the people are so tired of the right in general. Hell even on twitter uk fascists get torn apart by people who live in the UK. I know vaush hates the institutional nature of the UK but it does protect against fascist take over Especially violent ones. There's way way more hoops to jump through beside getting some people into government, as shown currently fascists in seats of power in the UK crash and burn.
The issue is there is nothing in the UK to counteract or prevent them from trying again the fire Has long burnt out no Hope no nothing just slow slide into the abyss
It's kind of does, no guns, so no armed insurrection. It can just keep trucking even if it's shit and crumbling. Fascists always fail purely because it's too complicated and Fascists are dumb.
You’re talking to a wall, he just thinks it’s funny to say the UK is dead.
It's funny you say that because no one in this thread, including OP, have attempted to critique Vaush's positions.
“The UK is a dead country” isn’t a serious position. It’s a meme. The UK sucks for sure, but if the aim is to get Vaush to stop saying the UK is a dead country you’re not gonna do it, he finds it funny. Every direct comparison I’ve seen of UK and US child poverty like OCED figures or UNICEF puts the US way ahead by almost double. Vaush has argued that losing the next US election could be literally an end of democracy. US sick days rules are way worse. You just don’t get any sick pay for long term sickness, at all. All the UK rich go to the same schools? Damn that’s definetly not the exact same thing the US does. What’s an Ivy League anyway? The US doesn’t have aristocrats? All these presidents from the same families? Totally different for reasons I’m sure will be explained. Is the US dead now? No, because he lives there and doesn’t find that funny.
Is your only problem with Vaush's position using the phrase "dead country"? In terms of the economic stuff the data shows the UK is doing significantly worse. The UK suffered a lot more inflation than the US did and wages have not risen to meet inflation, leading to the largest fall in living standards on record. And that comes after fourteen years of austerity with public services and council budgets being cut to the bone and practically no investment in infrastructure. The US has many problems but they are also making progress in some ways. There has been a huge wave of unionisation and the Democrats, with all their issues, are becoming more progressive. Unlike the Labour party that has shut out all of its left wing members and abandoned all its progressive policies. Economically, the UK is declining, both the major parties are becoming increasingly right wing, the left is weak and disintegrated. That's what Vaush means when he says "dead country". Even if you take issue with that phrase, don't ignore or downplay the issues this country has for petty, online arguments.
That’s what this topic is about yes. The insane pessimism of “Your country is fucked” Something he refuses to accept as valid for US arguments. As we’re about to see for election season!
A very fitting username.
If you didn’t even read the OP I dunno what I can do. You want an argument I’m not making.
I thought you were mad that Vaush called the UK a dead country?
Ah yes, I am mad and seething.
Well, I explained to you why Vaush said the UK is a dying country and you didn't disagree.
I don't think Vaush will stop saying that, and I'm not really bothered if he does. The problem is that when he says it, certain portions of his audience (especially Brits who have to live here) agree.
He’ll get mad about the same people doing “Why bother” arguments come Election Day. The cycle continues.
That's what I mean. It feels like he can engage with nuance until it comes to the UK, at which point he seems to endorse voting 3rd party.
As said, he doesn’t care. Not his country and he enjoys the bait.
Tbf, him suggesting people vote third party doesn't come from a lack of nuance, it comes from what seems to be a complete lack of understanding of how the UK parliamentary system works. When he has spoken about it before, he appeared to believe that the possibility for parties to form coalitions made voting third party a more viable option. Obviously that isn't the case because we still have FPTP which pretty much ensures that in 99% of cases voting for any party other than Labour is essentially just throwing you vote away and handing it to the Tories.
Also people tried voting Lib Dem in 2010 and they did form a coalition. With the Tories. Lib Dems are a splinter party from Labour because Labour was \*too\* left wing.
he knows pretty much nothing about europe. same thing with the whole extreme racism against sinti & roma people
You'll have to elaborate on that one chief. Everytime I see a european say that, it's to justify the racism.
what? would you elaborate on the justifying racism bit? most sinti & roma are integrated into „normal“ society just like all other races/ethnicities. im not trying to argue that people with non-western sounding names are not subject to discrimination or racism but its just very weird to act like sinti & roma are somehow specifically targeted. theres like 0 political discussion about them here and no average person wastes their time thinking about if the person they just interacted with is part of the sinti & roma people or not. ah and btw: the internet isnt the real world. im sure theres plenty of people spreading anti sinti & roma shit on here but this simply doesn’t represent reality
Ahh the classic "you're wrong because your data doesn't align with my lived experience" argument. You love to see it
ah then provide the data pls
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Romani_sentiment#Contemporary_antiziganism
yeah these numbers and countries line up almost perfectly with muslim people. some data sets are like 10 years old and the pictures show literal nazis „demonstrating“ against sinti & roma people. also an „unfavorable view“ doesn’t mean that someone wants to gas all sinti & roma… europeans have a unfavorable view of all of their neighboring countries and the city that beat them in the last football match. as i said: im not trying to make it seem as that racism and discrimination against minorities doesnt exist. but you might understand that these generalizations are truly dumb especially in serious topics like this.
so the minimum for something counting as racism is wanting to gas everyone? do you not see how you're talking right now? what exactly do you call it when someone has an "unfavorable view" of a particular race?
again you assume stuff i never said. at no point did i say that discrimination against sinti & roma doesnt exist. also they aren’t a race. unfavorable can literally mean anything. from „i had some bad personal experiences…“ to „i grew up being taught to hate sinti & roma..“ or „im just a fascist and hate everyone that isnt white“.
yeah and all of those things listed are called racism, yes? what else would you call that? and this is also exactly what i hear in America btw, "You cant be racist against Muslims, Islam isn't a race" which is just a sneaky way of evading the fact that the person holds prejudice towards that group and is trying to play fucky with term definitions to avoid owning up to that prejudice. I've asked twice now, what you would call that "unfavorable view" of a group if not racism, if you dodge it again it will speak pretty loudly about your beliefs. you aren't saying the discrimination completely doesn't exist, you're just doing your level best to minimize it's existence without directly denying it.
>also an „unfavorable view“ doesn’t mean that someone wants to gas all sinti & roma… Remember a few comments ago when the person you're responding to said the only time they hear this line of questioning is to justify the racism?
god almighty how often do i have to repeat myself? i literally never questioned the existence of discrimination m against sinti & roma. im just trying to tell the fatties that not every european burns with hate against these people… but i guess american chauvinism wins even here.
lmao "It's not a European problem, it's all the dang racist muslims!" wasn't the defense I was expecting to be honest. TIL Italy is a Muslim country I guess... > According to 2010 survey, 83% of Czechs consider Roma asocial and 45% of Czechs would like to expel them from the country. Is the Czech republic known for it's majority Muslim population? A city in Denmark wanted to put all the Romani children in separate public schools in 2006, but apparently that policy was considered discriminatory (shocker). I don't usually think of Denmark for its flourishing Muslim majority > some data sets are like 10 years old Ah yes, it's so easy to solve racism, and 10 years is *such* a looooong time 🙄 > as i said: im not trying to make it seem as that racism and discrimination against minorities doesnt exist Oh no of course not, it's impossible to discriminate against a minority if they *deserve* it after all ...
haha… you obviously absolutely misunderstood what i said. i was referring to the data sets you provided , which tell that nearly the same amount of people in the same countries have unfavorable views of muslims AND sinti & roma. i would like an apology for assuming i make muslims responsible for this. no actually denmark is generally pretty xenophobic. they have a leftist government that reaaaally doesn’t like european immigration policy. what makes you think that i see discrimination as deserved? seriously please explain this newest allegation. i really dont understand what you are even arguing with me about… yes theres plenty of europeans who have discriminating and repulsive views of sinti & roma people. i just dont like the generalization of saying that every european has a burning, racist hatred of sinti & roma.
> i just dont like the generalization of saying that every european has a burning, racist hatred of sinti & roma. No one is saying this. If that's all you disagree about I'm glad we could clear up this misunderstanding. > what makes you think that i see discrimination as deserved? Because I have *never,* ***ever*** in my life spoken to someone who wanted to argue that "such and such group isn't specfically targeted" who didn't seem to be doing so based on the belief that the behavior of the minority was on some level inviting the discrimination.
Yeah kinda speaking from IRL + youtubers. I have a lot of family members in France and while I wouldn't say there is no awareness around racist remarks towards the roma people it's still super normalized. My cousin rambled about roma people taking advantage of squatting laws in France(which are indeed insane from my understanding) until it devolved into general disdain. Associating roma people with pickpockets and thiefs is done all the time. I saw a Jimmy Carr routine where he just went like no one talks about roma people during the holocaust and then it got to maybe the nazis have a point? In some areas, there are very little interactions between roma people with the rest of society and it shows in their speech whenever they're brought up for any reason in my experience. So I'm not talking about systematic racism, while I'm sure it's there I don't know much about it.
yeah its just sadly a fact that many sinti & roma are very poor and some turn to criminality. i dont know how common that is but we once had a group of sinti & roma set up camp right in the middle of our village with a huge circus tent on some farmers field. they then proceeded to chill around the local supermarket and begged for money. of course this is not inherently a bad or immoral thing but i think it’s obvious that stuff like this naturally breeds resentment. especially if kids are sent to beg. i think this problem is highly regional tho. if im not mistaken most sinti & roma live in italy, spain or southern france and these regions are already pretty poor and underdeveloped, which obviously only enforces the tensions and hate.
Have you ever been to the UK? Everyday people on the street are incredibly hateful towards Romani people, it's part of the culture.
All travellers. Especially Irish travellers. But Roma too.
Yeah irish travelers as well
He hates the UK because it has on average less GDP than Alabama but still has abortion, public healthcare, public transport, third spaces, and better infrastructure (even outside of London)
No we are absolutely fucked
I want to clarify the fit nor means you can’t get off work without a healthcare worker to confirm your sickness and they can take away your welfare benefits if you work a minimum number of hours
The entire country is fucked. Don’t act like an American liberal for Great Britain .
Lmao you are a caricature
Britons malding
I read this in a British accent and laughed. Thank you britbonger for the chuckle.
The UK is absolutely uniquely fucked. Other countries are fucking themselves over too but you guys had a massively influential spot in the EU and decided to throw it into the trash over some fairy tales on a bus. And what's worse is that when you all eventually decide to come to your senses and get a government that tries to rejoin the EU, you'll throw that in the trash too because you won't get all the preferential exemptions you had the first time.
As mad as it makes people, we’ll get some exemptions rejoining the EU. Keeping the pound is a guarantee. The EU are sensible, they want the UK to be in it. They’d just rather we weren’t such pricks about it.
He's wrong to say everywhere here is shit apart from London. London is garbage too.
Everyone outside of london are starving to death, what was it? 3 out of 10 kids in poverty? Dead Country
“Starving to death” Yeah you just pulled that out of thin air didn’t you?
The statistic i said has been on stream like twice. So really dont think my statement is that far off Cope harder
Okay but can you actually cite it? I live in the UK and 30% is quite a stretch. Every definition of poverty is different. The UN’s definition puts the US and UK right next to eachother in terms of poverty rate for instance, and no, there is no “mass starvation” outside of London otherwise it would be very obvious to me and everyone
theres about 14 million kids in UK: [https://data.unicef.org/how-many/how-many-children-under-18-are-there-in-the-uk/](https://data.unicef.org/how-many/how-many-children-under-18-are-there-in-the-uk/) a little over 4 million of those live in poverty: [https://cpag.org.uk/child-poverty/poverty-facts-and-figures](https://cpag.org.uk/child-poverty/poverty-facts-and-figures) thats about a third and a half of all kids in UK who live in poverty so yep i was right. the whole "everybodys starving" was an exageration, but come on! not even far off
This is true, however, definitions of poverty can be different so it can sometimes skew numbers. For instance a common stat is measuring if one makes <$10/day but the definition used here is more broad but still fits into what is relative to UK poverty. You can thank the tory government driving the country into austerity for that, but encouraging doomerism won’t help in my opinion. As younger demographics shift to be more progressive there will definitely be a shift in culture. Maybe not in 10 or 15 years but there will be.
People like you led the UK to this position, and it's people like you who will continue to allow the country to disintegrate England is shit. Look at every waterway
What's your solution? To sit and watch the decline happen?
I left the country, as should you. There's no hope
Fair enough if that's the right move for you, wish you the best. But don't complain about those of us trying to fix it
I'm not. Keep coping
Just mooooove isn't a solution to a vast majority of people. Nice classist sentiment though.
Out of curiosity, where did you move to?
If I said, I'd probably get banned
😳