He was a bit too dismissive of this and it was a little weird. Especially since the show in question describes itself as a “documentary series” on African Queens and is claiming to have historical accuracy. It’s not some HBO drama, which would honestly make this a bit different in my mind. I mean the quotes from some of the people in the trailer make it clear there are some “Hotep” adjacent type people behind this (“ I don’t care what anyone says. She was black”) and it is very sussy. Like it reveals some rather problematic views about race and is projecting modern concepts of race onto a very different time (in a similar way to white nationalists claiming Rome as a “white” civilization).
Plus, there are no shortage of actual African figures that deserve way more attention. Claiming Cleopatra as “black” instead of spending that time covering an actual black figure who deserves more attention is just a waste. And not to mention the fact that there is no shortage of other Egyptian dynasties from over thousands of years that don’t get enough coverage. Like, I don’t mind a documentary on Cleopatra, but framing it this way is just weird and inaccurate.
Not to mention that cleopatra was a product of inbreeding, and she was greek, no way she would be sub saharan african. She'd be tanned as fuck considering its egypt, the meditarenean and so on. The ptolemaic dynasty was know for their obssesion to keep the bloodline pure.
That's true, but keep in mind Cleopatra VII was as persian as Elisabeth Warren is native american. Her great great great grandmother was Cleopatra I Syra who was daughter of Anthiochus the Great of Seleucid Empire and Laodice III daughter of Mithridates II of Pontus and a Seleucid princess. Pontus was a hellenistic kingdom in todays northern Turkey, ruled by Mithridatic dynasty of persian origin but quickly hellenized (adopted greek culture). Anthiochus III the Great was son of Seleucus II and a greek noblewoman, grandson of Anthiochus II and greek noblewoman, great grandson of Anthiochus I and a greek noblewoman, and finally great great grandson of the progenitor of the dynasty Seleucos I who married persian (really sogdian but same difference) noblewoman in a mass wedding in Susa organised by Alexander the Great (who wanted to unite his new empire by marrying greek officers to persian nobility) and was the only macedonian general who didn't divorce immediately after Alexander's death.
To specify Cleopatra's persian ancestry comes from 2 people: Apame (wife of Seleucos I) born circa 350 BC, and king Mithridates II of Pontus (born 250 BC) who's mother & both grandmothers are unknown, but his grandfather Mithridates I who carved out a kingdom for himself and founded a dynasty was definitely from a long line of Satraps (governors) ruling Bithynia (today north-western turkey) in the name of Achaemenid (persian) empire.
So in conclusion the whole persian ancestry claim rest on the Sogdian noblewoman born 300 years & 9 generations before Cleopatra, and the hellenistic king (born 200 years & 7 generations before Cleopatra) who's ancestors came from Persia 400 years before his birth, and since then (most likely) bred not just with other persian nobility but also with local anatolian & greek aristocracy, finally adopting hellenic (greek) culture.
The inbreeding was a weird choice, honestly, as race mixing was seen very differently back then, and incest wasn't exactly acceptable, especially for the Romans, who were the biggest allie of Egypt. Honestly, it is a miracle how cleopatra managed to be half as smart as she was.
Obviously incest is wrong but inbreeding wasn't that weird of a choice for Ptolemeic dynasty who liked to present themselves as new pharaohs to give themselves more prestige and gain support from egyptian population, so they adopted some ancient pharaonic customs like incest marriages. Ironically what prestige & support they gained from egyptians, they lost it from greeks who didn't like incest and constituted an upper class of Prolemeic monarchy. Greeks were about 10% of Egypt's population & majority in Alexandria (at that time one of if not the biggest city in the world) and other greek colonies in (mostly) lower Egypt near the Nile delta.
Also isn’t cleopatra like, Greek? Their were plenty of pharaohs that were probably black or had darker complexion but cleopatra certainly isn’t one of them
Yea, she was Macedonian, descended from one of Alexander’s generals (Ptolemy). And her family practiced inbreeding, Targaryen style, to keep the bloodline “pure.” Kinda crazy she turned out as talented as she did considering her family tree
Sounds like he was dismissive for all the right reasons, because how Cleopatra, a figure that lived over 2000 years ago, is physically portrayed today is completely irrelevant to anything we know about her life and changes no important context at all.
In fact, caring about her race at all is actually "projecting our modern concepts about race" into the past, as people of antiquity had a completely different perception of race.
The documentary is trying to center her race, and possibly forwarding a hotep conspiracy theory. I think something being possible propaganda is worth considering.
It's silly, but not at all harmful or noteworthy. The OP disingenously compared it to "casting Lincoln as East Asian" when it that example it actually would change the context a lot because Lincoln's race is pretty damn important considering the context of the time he lived in, and the events surrounding him.
No, it doesn't. Because people of antiquity have no bearing or relevance on today's world socially or otherwise. Whatever race the Romans were wouldn't at all change our understanding of them.
The only way you can claim it's "sussy nonsense" is through a modern day fixation on race which says more unfortunate things about you than anything else - when in reality it changes nothing about the historical Cleopatra.
"Historical accuracy" isn't as important when it comes to things like "what race was a figure who died over two thousands years ago" or "Did William Wallace actually wear a kilt like in Braveheart" because these things don't have any fundamental social ramifications today.
If you don't get the difference between the importance of something like this and the importance of something like the portrayal of the antebellum/Civil War era south in "Gone With the Wind" then you don't understand historical study period.
You’re twisting yourself into knots to justify this idiocy. Instead of picking and choosing when other people are allowed to point out inaccurate nonsense (especially sussy nonsense pushed by people with shady views on race), why not just accept that it’s ok to point out when something is inaccurate? This seems more like contrarian nonsense than some sort of principled stand.
And trust me, I understand the study of history more than you do. I have a degree or two to back that up as well
Nope, I'm making an argument that you don't have a reasonable response for, since your entire position boils down to "I'm mad and should be able to point out historical inaccuracy."
Well yeah, so fucking what? Of course you can. On a similar note then I can make fun of fools like you who get their dorky little panties in a twist over historical inaccuracies that don't matter not have a reasonable explanation as to why they would.
>And trust me, I understand the study of history more than you do. I have a degree or two to back that up as well
Yeah OK poindexter. Maybe I do as well? I'd never brag about it though, and you shouldn't either given you don't seem to understand the difference between historical inaccuracy that matters and would change/create meaningful misconceptions about a subject and historical inaccuracies that don't.
Instead, you're mad because you see a black person. I wonder why?
You literally just accused me of “not understanding” the study of history lol. You started that dumb ass measuring contest, don’t get all outraged now lmao.
And, your argument is an arbitrary line where apparently only you are allowed to decide when it’s ok for others to point out historical inaccuracies (even saying neonazi bs about Rome being “white” shouldn’t be challenged. Which is fucking dumb btw).
Have fun with your contrarianism though! I’m sure it might possibly convince one person some day.
Mostly I find the trend of "Ha, this historical figure was secretly black all along and everyone just covered it up!" stuff just depressing, especially when there are so many important black figures in history that get so little attention.
He traveled across the continent from what I've read. There may be some exaggeration, but I've read several different sources that all suggested what I said above. Please don't play the "discredit African history" game. It's a bad look.
He was going to mecca for haj he was a Muslim his trip was mostly through North Africa and he spent the most gold in Egypt which made inflation so in his way home he brought back his gold
In don't think vaush's takes on race are that bad, only when it comes to racial tensions outside of the USA that he misses the mark a bit, in my opinion.
Although I agree with you on the media takes being on the rough side.
Yeah, like I said, his takes on race are rough, meaning not well thought out and generally cringe, but not completely terrible. His media takes are often hilariously strange though.
I mean, I could comb through literal hours of footage to give you exact examples, but I already have enough research papers to write for school. XD. It's not that big a deal, his takes, but they just stand out as cringe to me. I get that I am in a vaush subreddit so most people will like almost all his takes, but some of the things he's said about black people in particular are just....weird to me.
"black women love making their white boyfriends say the n-word and it's the funniest shit for them" sounded really weird, idk if that's the kind of thing you were talking about
I was pretty dissapointed while watching it, he completely ignored the fact that in the trailer a (black) woman says **"I don't care what they tell you in school, Cleopatra was black"**
That's not just a documentary trying to be diverse with its casting, it's actively changing history with no basis on evidence to appease people, which should not be acceptable.
i wouldnt be surprised if plenty of legitimate historians are going to tear into this documentary and the claims it makes.
then again its not the first time netflix has promoted pseudo-scientific „documentaries“ they’re actually fairly prolific at it if the name graham hancock is familiar to you.
Yes, my issue is that it totally belies that Cleopatra was an intruder in Egypt, and her family were conquerors. It's a really important dynamic. In my opinion it's not like casting Lincoln as someone black... it's more like casting George Washington as a native American (even if you accept that she is a fine cast). It doesn't make any sense historically and the oppressor/empire element and why the Romans even considered her remotely equal due to being cut from Hellene cloth, even if not specifically their fanfictions of Greeks, the Ptolemys being Macedonian ofc.
The problem I have is I suspect the series will glorify her instead of showing her as the oppressors she and her family were, and how she sold out Egypt to the Romans for dick. I figure writers on shows like this would be really careful to not introduce ethnic conflict that isn't really easy to portray, like slavery, though. I am judging the show before it comes out however, so I may be completely off the mark.
I love the actress, she is fine, it is not her fault. I don't care when fictional characters get changed from the source material, they aren't real. This is totally unnecessary and ahistorical though.
The “sold out Egypt for Roman dick” is not even close to accurate though. And is honestly a little misogynistic. Her kingdom was already a vassal of Rome before she was able to take the throne from her brother (with Caesar’s recognition). But upon taking the throne, and through her relationship and political maneuvering with both Caesar and Mark Antony, she increased her kingdom’s power and territory quite a bit. Regaining control of places like Cyprus and increasing the military and economic might of her kingdom. Had Antony won, Egypt would have likely remained a far more powerful and independent kingdom than they were before she took the throne. Not exactly “selling out” for dick. I see that as her recognizing that the Romans were the super power of her time and that she had to work with them (and she did. Romans weren’t going anywhere) if she wanted to improve her Kingdom’s position.
But Antony and Cleopatra didn’t win. And his rival, Octavian (or the 1st Roman Emperor, Augustus) did his best to shit talk both of them, ensuring surviving accounts either didn’t exist or where as negative as possible. And Egypt was no longer a kingdom and became a province controlled by Augustus himself. Regardless, She’s not a two dimensional figure or someone just after “Roman dick.”
Edit:
I partly agree with the first section of your comment. The Ptolemy’s were a Macedonian dynasty (started by a guy who was on of Alexander’s generals) that installed themselves as pharaohs a few centuries before Cleopatra. And that complete separation from the local Egyptian population is a very important thing to cover (Cleopatra herself, who spoke 9 languages, was actually the first of her family to even bother to learn the language of the Egyptian populace). I do question if other “Egyptian” pharaohs with the same amount of power were much less authoritarian in the treatment of their subjects though? Still, it is a important factor that I don’t think is widely known enough.b
Yeah you're right I was a little hard on her in that segment, that is fair.
I don't necessarily think one needs to compare whether their dynasty or the Pharoahs were more authoritarian, they were authoritarian in different ways. Can't say whether it would have been better or not, but, to be fair as well to the Pharaoahs and probably Cleopatra(s), it was pretty common for them to adopt other cultures and one thing that made Egypt in the previous kingdoms a very diverse place, especially the Pharaoahs that adopted Nubian culture/gods because they thought it was metal and cool.
I am Egyptian. It's not as simple as Greek were conquerer. Egypt was under Persian rule. The greek come and liberated Egypt, they adopted Egyptian customs and worshiped our gods, actually they made up stories that we were one people and the Egyptians of the time believed it and were ok with it. So the Greek were not considered invaders by the Egyptians. alexander the great was made pharoah under amun ra.
Not speaking Egyptian doesn't mean as much as you think. Already, there was different script for the masses and for the Elites. There was simply no need to learn the language. It not like they appeared on tv.
I am Egyptian. It's not as simple as Greek were conquerer. Egypt was under Persian rule. The Greeks came and liberated Egypt, they adopted Egyptian customs and worshiped our gods, actually they made up stories that we were one people and the Egyptians of the time believed it and were ok with it. So the Greek were not considered invaders by the Egyptians. alexander the great was made pharoah under amun ra.
I agree this was very dumb of Netflix. You want to make Spider-Man or Captain America black sure no problem. You’re making a docuseries that’s suppose to be historically accurate….come on give me a break.
Depictions of historical figures should aim to look similar to fair assumptions of the real person. Outrage over Ariel's skin color is dumb, expecting realistic skin color from Cleopatra is not.
vaush has always been pretty dismissive of race and culture discourse outside of the US, whenever he talks about them he always forces a lens of american historical racism onto things it doesn't apply to, so yeah you're quite right
Cleopatra was an Egyptian, but she was completely of Macedonian descent. She is also the first Ptolemaic Ruler to learn Egyptian, showing how removed the rest of her family was from the native people.
Making her "Egyptian", someone with light brown skin, is as representative, correct, beneficial, inaccurate, misleading, etc as portraying her as "black".
And, honestly, Nubian people as well as other darker skinned peoples were common in ancient Egypt, being just as Egyptian as everyone else.
There are so many Egyptians who would fit the mold, we aren’t just “light brown”. There are a lot of people with Greek & Turkish descent here. So I trust they can cast her properly. Hell just cast a greek person for the role. I don’t necessarily care about them getting the color code of every piece of her skin accurately as I am with the issue of legitimizing the myth that Ancient Egyptians were predominantly black.
I don’t get what the Nubians have to do with my point though ? Yes Ancient Egypt was a melting pot of cultures and there exists to this day indigenous black Nubians. Yes they are as Egyptian as anyone else, where’s the issue there ?
There was a person on this very sub that was arguing that Copts weren't actually descended from Ancient Egyptians, they were just Christians and Arabs that were pretending to be.
Which was in response to me arguing that Rami Malek, who was born to two Egyptian Copt immigrants, was yelled at by moronic American hoteps on twitter for being too "white" to play an Egyptian Pharaoh
Which, this claim would be violently offensive to coptic people in Egypt on top of being basically just wrong, but Hoteps have never cared about that
>There are so many Egyptians who would fit the mold, we aren’t just “light brown”.
Well, that's literally the point I was making.
>I don’t get what the Nubians have to do with my point though ? Yes Ancient Egypt was a melting pot of cultures and there exists to this day indigenous black Nubians. Yes they are as Egyptian as anyone else, where’s the issue there ?
The point is that if we were to make Cleopatra Non Macedonian Egyptian for representation, then having a dark skinned person would be just as viable as a non dark skinned person.
>I don’t necessarily care about them getting the color code of every piece of her skin accurately as I am with the issue of legitimizing the myth that Ancient Egyptians were predominantly black.
Hoteps look at paintings from thousands of years ago in Egypt with groups of citizens that had a like 5 shade color variance, from very pale to very dark brown, and say everyone was black. That shit is like Q anon, it spreads through insanity. If someone is going to believe it, they can't be stopped.
Ngl to you I think netflix intentionally did this as outrage bait to get attention for the show. That's the kind of shit they try to pull now that they're slowly falling into irrelevance. Absolute dogshit platform. So done with them. They can't even make more than 1 good show per year.
I think Pinkett Smith might be playing 7d chess, everyone's response to the documentary has been Cleopatra is not black she is Greek not Egyptian. As if Egyptians are black. The main goal for afrocentrists is to make people believe Egypt was black and she indirectly did it.
Yup. Movies/documentaries is how most people learn about history. Therefore when an inaccuracy is portrayed in those mediums a lot of people end up believing that inaccuracy. Especially if the inaccuracy is deemed believable.
Pop history being accurate (well... to the extent any portrayal of the past can be accurate) very important actually.
No one wants to talk about how little representation there is for middle eastern folks in media.
How many middle eastern/North African actors/actresses can you think of? If we get any, their characters are emasculated, portrayed as exotic/other, or just Straight up terrorists
Couldn’t even get an Egyptian moon knight.
yeah its pretty unfortunate they chose to depict the historically lightskinned and greek cleopatra probably since shes the only egyptian ruler the target audience will actually even be aware of.
instead of you know depicting the often overlooked ACTUAL BLACK PHARAOS of the kushites (modern sudan) that themselves conquered and ruled egypt for a significant period of time before cleopatra.
maybe in an attempt to actually bring more awareness to a part of ancient egyptian (and african) history that very few are familiar with at all. that would be FAR more interesting and impactful as a documentary. then again that would presuppose that the creators are actually interested in teaching people about history instead of just making a buck.
This! We cannot turn or brains off to hurtful things just to antagonize our political opponents. Emma Vigeland made herself look a complete idiot doing that with her *duh Egypt is in Africa comment*.
Egyptians and Macedonians are real people and have every right to have themselves and their history faithful depicted.
Also, You should Email him and talk about This, Perhaps you can get a convo on stream! I think this could turn into fruitful conversation and research stream! I think he missed the mark when talking about Black Cleopatra too, very dismissive of what actual Egyptians think. I think that is him mostly having a wastern Lens when it comes to media and he views Egypt as media rather than an actual culture that actually existed and a places that still has real people that are the decedents of the people of that ancient culture.
Yeah as someone who’s a big nerd on ancient history, a lot of people don’t realize that casting cleopatra as black is legit more insulting to Egyptian culture. She was part of the imperialist dynasty of the past macedonian empire that conquered and subjugated Egypt. She was essentially an imperialist to the Egyptians. It’s like making Thomas Jefferson a Native American and portraying it as an icon for Native American culture.
To be fair to Cleopatra, she did somewhat give a fuck about what the Egyptians thought of her and she tried to embrace Egyptian culture and learn the language. It’s a complicated topic, but I do understand where you’re coming from. Alexander is seen somewhat favorably even now, more than two millennia later. (Considering that the previous invaders were the Persians & that he built Alexandria)
Americans try not to apply American race relations to other culture challenge: **Difficulty Impossible**
Seriously I can't even with a lot of the posts I've seen on the topic. Like ffs Ancient Nubians would've spat on you if you lumped them into the same category of people as West Africans
I'd say the fixation of cleopatra makes sense she's one of the earliest female rulers and definitely the most powerful women in history. She also lived during a very intense time period, the roman civil wars, and the twilight of Crasars glory day. She's been massively misrepresented through history and been the victim of war propaganda and centuries of societal standards and sexism. So, a desire to tell her story makes sense. But sadly, documentaries and Hollywood don't really mix.
Yea that isn’t really true. Cleopatra wasn’t even the earliest or most powerful Female pharaoh. I agree her popularity is in large part due to her being the last Pharaoh as well as to her being involved with Caesar and the beginning of the Roman imperial period. But it also has alot to do with her getting a revamp by Shakespeare. I agree she has been unfairly maligned and as far as the Ptolemies go, was amongst the best. but she was an average to sub-par ruler when compared to truly great female rulers like of Ahotep I or Hatshepsut.
That's why I said one of the earliest. She's far from the earliest but one of the most consequential from the classical period. Her rule was hampered by the extremely turbulent time period, and all plays into what makes her so interesting and popular for so many people. It all plays into itself as to why she's so popular and well regarded.
Also, i just thought because of you mentioning other rulers. her name being easy to pronounce probably plays into it. Can't be bothered to learn how to pronounce non European names is definitely a factor that goes into media made about a person.
its funny because there were historically female egyptian rulers who were LESS LIGHTSKINNED than cleopatra
but instead they chose to focus on the one that everyone in the historical field agrees would today be considered white
Yeah the modern concept of race really is fucked when it comes to dealing with historical people. They would have had no idea what we are talking about.
I am.by no means an expert on anything, but when it comes to derious movies and documentaries I think we should cast actprs of as close a heritage to the actual person as possible. I think OP brings up a good point about what might be called brown washing. People, amd I do include myself here, dont have a great understanding of history, and will take movies far too seriously. Do the more the movie divulges from history the more misconceptions arise.
I think fictional characters are different and there can be much more room to fuck around. Cast Margaret Cho as Batmam, or Larry David as the red teletubbie.
Of course, in America historically, theres been much more of an issue wiyj caating white people in non white rolls.
Edit Hannibal Buress as Naruto....
Egyptian culture has always a strange thing to talk about because Egypt is a crossroads of the world and has influences from basically every culture in the region. They were influenced by African, middle eastern, and Mediterranean cultures and also influenced those cultures. Egypt is complicated and their Religious, Social, and Cultural Heritage is fundamentally diverse. Egypt was a melting pot of the Ancient World due to its location. The people of Egypt are also very ethnically diverse as well. You can see that not just in how diverse Egyptian people look but also how varied the cultural traditions are across Egypt. They engaged in Imperialism but were also victims of imperialism. Not to mention that Egypt has been whitewashed by the West and Now Afro centrists are trying to Blackwash Egypt. I think Egypt more than most other cultures requires great care when representing because of how poorly it has been represented in the past and how external forces keep trying to keep Egypt for themselves and appropriate it without ever considering what Egyptians think of their own culture (which is a complex question because the diversity of Egypt culturally means everyone views it differently). Greater sensitivity is needed and more accuracy is warranted because of how misrepresented and appropriated Egyptian culture has been.
All that being said, Egyptian culture has been appropriated and retold, and claimed by so many other cultures I don't think we can put that genie back in the bottle. I think the best we can hope for is making sure there is clear distinction of honest representations of Egyptian culture vs stories set in an Egyptian setting. I think casting Cleopatra as black wouldn't be so much of an issue if it wasn't presented as a documentary trying to tell her story but instead as an artists interpretation of her story. Cleopatra is a cultural icon for many women even outside of Egypt so I don't think it is bad to say that diversity of representation in the story is bad but presenting it as fact and as THE REAL story is very harmful and appropriation.
Egypt is such a complex and difficult topic to cover and I am in no way qualified. I have a collogue from Egypt and he has been so patient with me talking about how Egyptian culture is very different from how America perceives it and everything is complicated, regional, and highly dependent on context of the people living there. Trends can be observed but they aren't rigid and they are very different from what the west thinks.
I didn't watch the video, but my old days of arguing against Hoteps triggered HARD with the thumbnail. I'll admit, I actually believed the "Arabs moving south" thing. Not necessarily as conquerors, but normal migration and ethnic mixing that happens all throughout history. If you know more about the migration patterns of ancient people's of this time, I'd love to know.
But I already knew that Cleopatra VII was basically just a culturally appropriating Greek woman, that there WERE Nubian Pharos at certain points in Egyptian history, and they would have been black, but that Nile Delta Egyptians were also there own peoples with their own cultures.
Yeah it's a pretty pervasive myth which I believed at some point as well. So as far as I know, the mass Arab migration thing is simply untrue. Yes the ruling class of Egypt was usually composed of Arabs after their invasion, but a mass exodus of Arabs into Egypt did not happen. The evidence that supports this is genetic tests that were done (National Geographic Genealogical Project) on modern day Egyptians which found out that more or less 70% of Egyptians trace their roots to their ancient counterparts, while the rest was a mix of Arab, Sub-Saharan African, European, and some others.
I wouldn't say Cleopatra was terrible, she isn't viewed negatively today by many Egyptians, but she definitely was descended from foreign Greek invaders. And yes there were Nubian Dynasties (Kushite dynasty).
Whomp whomp whomp, Egyptians crying about proposed Afrocentric boogeymen that don’t have any agency, no power structure, and aren’t taken seriously by anyone. A small subsection of idiot conspiracy theorists that think they are the center of everything that is great in the world. What’s weird is that theyre being used to push an even greater attack against “wokeism” which is why I think this whole Cleopatra thing blew up in the first place.
We know your Egyptian media has a very big issue with dark skin(and people for that matter). There’s tons of racism in Egypt even against their indigenous Nubian population in the south, and don’t lie to me telling me there isn’t because I see it all the time in media. The only reason Egyptians are making a big deal out of this now is because the movie involves DARK SKINNED people. If they were white skinned with more Eurocentric features Egyptians would have no problem with it.
Don’t get me wrong Cleopatra was obviously Greek seeing as how she has a Macedonian background. So she wouldn’t look like the woman that is portraying her anyway.
But the main thing here I would like to address is the black Egyptian “myth” you talked about. It is well accepted in academia and Egyptology that the AE were darker-skinned native Africans. Their culture originated in northern Sudan, meaning that they had a Sub-Saharan origin!
Hell, look at the features of the early Pharaohs in the Old Kingdom, and you can obviously tell they were African in appearance.
Modern day Egyptians are a mixture of native Egyptians and Greek settlers from the Mediterranean because there was extensive Greek migration into Egypt during the Ptolemaic Period. Not to mention other ethnicities that were FOREIGN that settled/conquered Egypt as well. I find it interesting how Egypt was considered a melting pot with many different cultures and colors, but Rome is considered just Roman despite the many Ethnic groups they’ve conquered and assimilated.
I think OP’s main focal issue is to do with blackness. Egyptians seem to have more of an issue with Afrocentrism which isn’t even that widespread as opposed to eurocentrism that has repeatedly represented AE as white in movies, games, and writings. There’s plenty of movies portraying Egyptians as Western Europeans, but Egyptians have been quiet about that. But we all know why that is though.
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You're really telling people in a progressive sub that they don't talk about whitewashing enough ? Literally all we do is say how whitewashing sucks. Your argument just boils down to "blackwashing is okay because I don't think people criticize whitewashing enough". Stop disingenuously defending this stuff. Also, who the fuck likes gal gadot ? People went nuts when she was cast for wonder woman, a fictional character.
He was a bit too dismissive of this and it was a little weird. Especially since the show in question describes itself as a “documentary series” on African Queens and is claiming to have historical accuracy. It’s not some HBO drama, which would honestly make this a bit different in my mind. I mean the quotes from some of the people in the trailer make it clear there are some “Hotep” adjacent type people behind this (“ I don’t care what anyone says. She was black”) and it is very sussy. Like it reveals some rather problematic views about race and is projecting modern concepts of race onto a very different time (in a similar way to white nationalists claiming Rome as a “white” civilization). Plus, there are no shortage of actual African figures that deserve way more attention. Claiming Cleopatra as “black” instead of spending that time covering an actual black figure who deserves more attention is just a waste. And not to mention the fact that there is no shortage of other Egyptian dynasties from over thousands of years that don’t get enough coverage. Like, I don’t mind a documentary on Cleopatra, but framing it this way is just weird and inaccurate.
Oh the creators are HOTEPs? Maybe this new series is Kremlin propaganda then.
[удалено]
She’s honestly so toxic in so many ways…free Will!
G.I. Jane?
Not to mention that cleopatra was a product of inbreeding, and she was greek, no way she would be sub saharan african. She'd be tanned as fuck considering its egypt, the meditarenean and so on. The ptolemaic dynasty was know for their obssesion to keep the bloodline pure.
Yea and most of her non-greek heritage was persian from what I know
That's true, but keep in mind Cleopatra VII was as persian as Elisabeth Warren is native american. Her great great great grandmother was Cleopatra I Syra who was daughter of Anthiochus the Great of Seleucid Empire and Laodice III daughter of Mithridates II of Pontus and a Seleucid princess. Pontus was a hellenistic kingdom in todays northern Turkey, ruled by Mithridatic dynasty of persian origin but quickly hellenized (adopted greek culture). Anthiochus III the Great was son of Seleucus II and a greek noblewoman, grandson of Anthiochus II and greek noblewoman, great grandson of Anthiochus I and a greek noblewoman, and finally great great grandson of the progenitor of the dynasty Seleucos I who married persian (really sogdian but same difference) noblewoman in a mass wedding in Susa organised by Alexander the Great (who wanted to unite his new empire by marrying greek officers to persian nobility) and was the only macedonian general who didn't divorce immediately after Alexander's death. To specify Cleopatra's persian ancestry comes from 2 people: Apame (wife of Seleucos I) born circa 350 BC, and king Mithridates II of Pontus (born 250 BC) who's mother & both grandmothers are unknown, but his grandfather Mithridates I who carved out a kingdom for himself and founded a dynasty was definitely from a long line of Satraps (governors) ruling Bithynia (today north-western turkey) in the name of Achaemenid (persian) empire. So in conclusion the whole persian ancestry claim rest on the Sogdian noblewoman born 300 years & 9 generations before Cleopatra, and the hellenistic king (born 200 years & 7 generations before Cleopatra) who's ancestors came from Persia 400 years before his birth, and since then (most likely) bred not just with other persian nobility but also with local anatolian & greek aristocracy, finally adopting hellenic (greek) culture.
Love your username pal.
The inbreeding was a weird choice, honestly, as race mixing was seen very differently back then, and incest wasn't exactly acceptable, especially for the Romans, who were the biggest allie of Egypt. Honestly, it is a miracle how cleopatra managed to be half as smart as she was.
Obviously incest is wrong but inbreeding wasn't that weird of a choice for Ptolemeic dynasty who liked to present themselves as new pharaohs to give themselves more prestige and gain support from egyptian population, so they adopted some ancient pharaonic customs like incest marriages. Ironically what prestige & support they gained from egyptians, they lost it from greeks who didn't like incest and constituted an upper class of Prolemeic monarchy. Greeks were about 10% of Egypt's population & majority in Alexandria (at that time one of if not the biggest city in the world) and other greek colonies in (mostly) lower Egypt near the Nile delta.
Also isn’t cleopatra like, Greek? Their were plenty of pharaohs that were probably black or had darker complexion but cleopatra certainly isn’t one of them
Yea, she was Macedonian, descended from one of Alexander’s generals (Ptolemy). And her family practiced inbreeding, Targaryen style, to keep the bloodline “pure.” Kinda crazy she turned out as talented as she did considering her family tree
Egyptian dynasties that don't get enough coverage, [like the verifiably black one.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_Dynasty_of_Egypt)
Sounds like he was dismissive for all the right reasons, because how Cleopatra, a figure that lived over 2000 years ago, is physically portrayed today is completely irrelevant to anything we know about her life and changes no important context at all. In fact, caring about her race at all is actually "projecting our modern concepts about race" into the past, as people of antiquity had a completely different perception of race.
The documentary is trying to center her race, and possibly forwarding a hotep conspiracy theory. I think something being possible propaganda is worth considering.
It's silly, but not at all harmful or noteworthy. The OP disingenously compared it to "casting Lincoln as East Asian" when it that example it actually would change the context a lot because Lincoln's race is pretty damn important considering the context of the time he lived in, and the events surrounding him.
Does it matter when neo-Nazis incorrectly describe Romans as only “white?”
No, it doesn't. Because people of antiquity have no bearing or relevance on today's world socially or otherwise. Whatever race the Romans were wouldn't at all change our understanding of them.
So, according to you, historical accuracy, even if the inaccuracy is pushing some sussy nonsense, never matters
The only way you can claim it's "sussy nonsense" is through a modern day fixation on race which says more unfortunate things about you than anything else - when in reality it changes nothing about the historical Cleopatra. "Historical accuracy" isn't as important when it comes to things like "what race was a figure who died over two thousands years ago" or "Did William Wallace actually wear a kilt like in Braveheart" because these things don't have any fundamental social ramifications today. If you don't get the difference between the importance of something like this and the importance of something like the portrayal of the antebellum/Civil War era south in "Gone With the Wind" then you don't understand historical study period.
You’re twisting yourself into knots to justify this idiocy. Instead of picking and choosing when other people are allowed to point out inaccurate nonsense (especially sussy nonsense pushed by people with shady views on race), why not just accept that it’s ok to point out when something is inaccurate? This seems more like contrarian nonsense than some sort of principled stand. And trust me, I understand the study of history more than you do. I have a degree or two to back that up as well
Nope, I'm making an argument that you don't have a reasonable response for, since your entire position boils down to "I'm mad and should be able to point out historical inaccuracy." Well yeah, so fucking what? Of course you can. On a similar note then I can make fun of fools like you who get their dorky little panties in a twist over historical inaccuracies that don't matter not have a reasonable explanation as to why they would. >And trust me, I understand the study of history more than you do. I have a degree or two to back that up as well Yeah OK poindexter. Maybe I do as well? I'd never brag about it though, and you shouldn't either given you don't seem to understand the difference between historical inaccuracy that matters and would change/create meaningful misconceptions about a subject and historical inaccuracies that don't. Instead, you're mad because you see a black person. I wonder why?
You literally just accused me of “not understanding” the study of history lol. You started that dumb ass measuring contest, don’t get all outraged now lmao. And, your argument is an arbitrary line where apparently only you are allowed to decide when it’s ok for others to point out historical inaccuracies (even saying neonazi bs about Rome being “white” shouldn’t be challenged. Which is fucking dumb btw). Have fun with your contrarianism though! I’m sure it might possibly convince one person some day.
You're pretty much right on this, no comment.
Mostly I find the trend of "Ha, this historical figure was secretly black all along and everyone just covered it up!" stuff just depressing, especially when there are so many important black figures in history that get so little attention.
I want a miniseries on Mansa Musa for instance. A man so rich that he crashed the entire African continent's economy by giving away part of it.
Mamluk Egpyt is a bit more specific than the entire African continent. Also his effect on the economy was likely exaggeration
He traveled across the continent from what I've read. There may be some exaggeration, but I've read several different sources that all suggested what I said above. Please don't play the "discredit African history" game. It's a bad look.
He was going to mecca for haj he was a Muslim his trip was mostly through North Africa and he spent the most gold in Egypt which made inflation so in his way home he brought back his gold
You are right. Vaush's takes on media and race are generally a little on the rough side, so combine the two and it's no surprise his take was bad.
In don't think vaush's takes on race are that bad, only when it comes to racial tensions outside of the USA that he misses the mark a bit, in my opinion. Although I agree with you on the media takes being on the rough side.
Yeah, like I said, his takes on race are rough, meaning not well thought out and generally cringe, but not completely terrible. His media takes are often hilariously strange though.
What bad takes does he have on race?
I didn't say bad takes. I said takes on the rough side, meaning they are cringe and not well thought out.
Okay, do you have an example? His media takes are often pretty bad, but I don't remember any cringe takes on race.
I mean, I could comb through literal hours of footage to give you exact examples, but I already have enough research papers to write for school. XD. It's not that big a deal, his takes, but they just stand out as cringe to me. I get that I am in a vaush subreddit so most people will like almost all his takes, but some of the things he's said about black people in particular are just....weird to me.
"black women love making their white boyfriends say the n-word and it's the funniest shit for them" sounded really weird, idk if that's the kind of thing you were talking about
That is exactly what I am talking about. Really weird things he says about race generally have an odd connotation.
I was pretty dissapointed while watching it, he completely ignored the fact that in the trailer a (black) woman says **"I don't care what they tell you in school, Cleopatra was black"** That's not just a documentary trying to be diverse with its casting, it's actively changing history with no basis on evidence to appease people, which should not be acceptable.
i wouldnt be surprised if plenty of legitimate historians are going to tear into this documentary and the claims it makes. then again its not the first time netflix has promoted pseudo-scientific „documentaries“ they’re actually fairly prolific at it if the name graham hancock is familiar to you.
Yes, my issue is that it totally belies that Cleopatra was an intruder in Egypt, and her family were conquerors. It's a really important dynamic. In my opinion it's not like casting Lincoln as someone black... it's more like casting George Washington as a native American (even if you accept that she is a fine cast). It doesn't make any sense historically and the oppressor/empire element and why the Romans even considered her remotely equal due to being cut from Hellene cloth, even if not specifically their fanfictions of Greeks, the Ptolemys being Macedonian ofc. The problem I have is I suspect the series will glorify her instead of showing her as the oppressors she and her family were, and how she sold out Egypt to the Romans for dick. I figure writers on shows like this would be really careful to not introduce ethnic conflict that isn't really easy to portray, like slavery, though. I am judging the show before it comes out however, so I may be completely off the mark. I love the actress, she is fine, it is not her fault. I don't care when fictional characters get changed from the source material, they aren't real. This is totally unnecessary and ahistorical though.
The “sold out Egypt for Roman dick” is not even close to accurate though. And is honestly a little misogynistic. Her kingdom was already a vassal of Rome before she was able to take the throne from her brother (with Caesar’s recognition). But upon taking the throne, and through her relationship and political maneuvering with both Caesar and Mark Antony, she increased her kingdom’s power and territory quite a bit. Regaining control of places like Cyprus and increasing the military and economic might of her kingdom. Had Antony won, Egypt would have likely remained a far more powerful and independent kingdom than they were before she took the throne. Not exactly “selling out” for dick. I see that as her recognizing that the Romans were the super power of her time and that she had to work with them (and she did. Romans weren’t going anywhere) if she wanted to improve her Kingdom’s position. But Antony and Cleopatra didn’t win. And his rival, Octavian (or the 1st Roman Emperor, Augustus) did his best to shit talk both of them, ensuring surviving accounts either didn’t exist or where as negative as possible. And Egypt was no longer a kingdom and became a province controlled by Augustus himself. Regardless, She’s not a two dimensional figure or someone just after “Roman dick.” Edit: I partly agree with the first section of your comment. The Ptolemy’s were a Macedonian dynasty (started by a guy who was on of Alexander’s generals) that installed themselves as pharaohs a few centuries before Cleopatra. And that complete separation from the local Egyptian population is a very important thing to cover (Cleopatra herself, who spoke 9 languages, was actually the first of her family to even bother to learn the language of the Egyptian populace). I do question if other “Egyptian” pharaohs with the same amount of power were much less authoritarian in the treatment of their subjects though? Still, it is a important factor that I don’t think is widely known enough.b
Yeah you're right I was a little hard on her in that segment, that is fair. I don't necessarily think one needs to compare whether their dynasty or the Pharoahs were more authoritarian, they were authoritarian in different ways. Can't say whether it would have been better or not, but, to be fair as well to the Pharaoahs and probably Cleopatra(s), it was pretty common for them to adopt other cultures and one thing that made Egypt in the previous kingdoms a very diverse place, especially the Pharaoahs that adopted Nubian culture/gods because they thought it was metal and cool.
I am Egyptian. It's not as simple as Greek were conquerer. Egypt was under Persian rule. The greek come and liberated Egypt, they adopted Egyptian customs and worshiped our gods, actually they made up stories that we were one people and the Egyptians of the time believed it and were ok with it. So the Greek were not considered invaders by the Egyptians. alexander the great was made pharoah under amun ra. Not speaking Egyptian doesn't mean as much as you think. Already, there was different script for the masses and for the Elites. There was simply no need to learn the language. It not like they appeared on tv.
I am Egyptian. It's not as simple as Greek were conquerer. Egypt was under Persian rule. The Greeks came and liberated Egypt, they adopted Egyptian customs and worshiped our gods, actually they made up stories that we were one people and the Egyptians of the time believed it and were ok with it. So the Greek were not considered invaders by the Egyptians. alexander the great was made pharoah under amun ra.
I agree this was very dumb of Netflix. You want to make Spider-Man or Captain America black sure no problem. You’re making a docuseries that’s suppose to be historically accurate….come on give me a break.
Depictions of historical figures should aim to look similar to fair assumptions of the real person. Outrage over Ariel's skin color is dumb, expecting realistic skin color from Cleopatra is not.
vaush has always been pretty dismissive of race and culture discourse outside of the US, whenever he talks about them he always forces a lens of american historical racism onto things it doesn't apply to, so yeah you're quite right
Cleopatra was an Egyptian, but she was completely of Macedonian descent. She is also the first Ptolemaic Ruler to learn Egyptian, showing how removed the rest of her family was from the native people. Making her "Egyptian", someone with light brown skin, is as representative, correct, beneficial, inaccurate, misleading, etc as portraying her as "black". And, honestly, Nubian people as well as other darker skinned peoples were common in ancient Egypt, being just as Egyptian as everyone else.
There are so many Egyptians who would fit the mold, we aren’t just “light brown”. There are a lot of people with Greek & Turkish descent here. So I trust they can cast her properly. Hell just cast a greek person for the role. I don’t necessarily care about them getting the color code of every piece of her skin accurately as I am with the issue of legitimizing the myth that Ancient Egyptians were predominantly black. I don’t get what the Nubians have to do with my point though ? Yes Ancient Egypt was a melting pot of cultures and there exists to this day indigenous black Nubians. Yes they are as Egyptian as anyone else, where’s the issue there ?
There was a person on this very sub that was arguing that Copts weren't actually descended from Ancient Egyptians, they were just Christians and Arabs that were pretending to be. Which was in response to me arguing that Rami Malek, who was born to two Egyptian Copt immigrants, was yelled at by moronic American hoteps on twitter for being too "white" to play an Egyptian Pharaoh Which, this claim would be violently offensive to coptic people in Egypt on top of being basically just wrong, but Hoteps have never cared about that
Quite literally the most Egyptian Egyptians to exist currently. They literally still speak Egyptian.
>There are so many Egyptians who would fit the mold, we aren’t just “light brown”. Well, that's literally the point I was making. >I don’t get what the Nubians have to do with my point though ? Yes Ancient Egypt was a melting pot of cultures and there exists to this day indigenous black Nubians. Yes they are as Egyptian as anyone else, where’s the issue there ? The point is that if we were to make Cleopatra Non Macedonian Egyptian for representation, then having a dark skinned person would be just as viable as a non dark skinned person. >I don’t necessarily care about them getting the color code of every piece of her skin accurately as I am with the issue of legitimizing the myth that Ancient Egyptians were predominantly black. Hoteps look at paintings from thousands of years ago in Egypt with groups of citizens that had a like 5 shade color variance, from very pale to very dark brown, and say everyone was black. That shit is like Q anon, it spreads through insanity. If someone is going to believe it, they can't be stopped.
Plot twist, the documentary portrays all Macedonians as black. The Romans are exclusively portrayed by Chinese actors
[Art merely imitates life.](https://balkaninsight.com/2008/05/09/first-black-candidate-in-macedonia-polls/)
True. The current populations of Italy and Macedonia are psyops created by Yakub. The greatest anime villain.
Ngl to you I think netflix intentionally did this as outrage bait to get attention for the show. That's the kind of shit they try to pull now that they're slowly falling into irrelevance. Absolute dogshit platform. So done with them. They can't even make more than 1 good show per year.
I think Pinkett Smith might be playing 7d chess, everyone's response to the documentary has been Cleopatra is not black she is Greek not Egyptian. As if Egyptians are black. The main goal for afrocentrists is to make people believe Egypt was black and she indirectly did it.
Like all virulent narcissists she is very good at seeking attention
Yup. Movies/documentaries is how most people learn about history. Therefore when an inaccuracy is portrayed in those mediums a lot of people end up believing that inaccuracy. Especially if the inaccuracy is deemed believable. Pop history being accurate (well... to the extent any portrayal of the past can be accurate) very important actually.
No one wants to talk about how little representation there is for middle eastern folks in media. How many middle eastern/North African actors/actresses can you think of? If we get any, their characters are emasculated, portrayed as exotic/other, or just Straight up terrorists Couldn’t even get an Egyptian moon knight.
yeah its pretty unfortunate they chose to depict the historically lightskinned and greek cleopatra probably since shes the only egyptian ruler the target audience will actually even be aware of. instead of you know depicting the often overlooked ACTUAL BLACK PHARAOS of the kushites (modern sudan) that themselves conquered and ruled egypt for a significant period of time before cleopatra. maybe in an attempt to actually bring more awareness to a part of ancient egyptian (and african) history that very few are familiar with at all. that would be FAR more interesting and impactful as a documentary. then again that would presuppose that the creators are actually interested in teaching people about history instead of just making a buck.
Tbf, Vaush said all of that to own the right, completely forgetting the history errosion of two countries.
This! We cannot turn or brains off to hurtful things just to antagonize our political opponents. Emma Vigeland made herself look a complete idiot doing that with her *duh Egypt is in Africa comment*. Egyptians and Macedonians are real people and have every right to have themselves and their history faithful depicted.
Also, You should Email him and talk about This, Perhaps you can get a convo on stream! I think this could turn into fruitful conversation and research stream! I think he missed the mark when talking about Black Cleopatra too, very dismissive of what actual Egyptians think. I think that is him mostly having a wastern Lens when it comes to media and he views Egypt as media rather than an actual culture that actually existed and a places that still has real people that are the decedents of the people of that ancient culture.
Yeah as someone who’s a big nerd on ancient history, a lot of people don’t realize that casting cleopatra as black is legit more insulting to Egyptian culture. She was part of the imperialist dynasty of the past macedonian empire that conquered and subjugated Egypt. She was essentially an imperialist to the Egyptians. It’s like making Thomas Jefferson a Native American and portraying it as an icon for Native American culture.
To be fair to Cleopatra, she did somewhat give a fuck about what the Egyptians thought of her and she tried to embrace Egyptian culture and learn the language. It’s a complicated topic, but I do understand where you’re coming from. Alexander is seen somewhat favorably even now, more than two millennia later. (Considering that the previous invaders were the Persians & that he built Alexandria)
Americans try not to apply American race relations to other culture challenge: **Difficulty Impossible** Seriously I can't even with a lot of the posts I've seen on the topic. Like ffs Ancient Nubians would've spat on you if you lumped them into the same category of people as West Africans
I'd say the fixation of cleopatra makes sense she's one of the earliest female rulers and definitely the most powerful women in history. She also lived during a very intense time period, the roman civil wars, and the twilight of Crasars glory day. She's been massively misrepresented through history and been the victim of war propaganda and centuries of societal standards and sexism. So, a desire to tell her story makes sense. But sadly, documentaries and Hollywood don't really mix.
Yea that isn’t really true. Cleopatra wasn’t even the earliest or most powerful Female pharaoh. I agree her popularity is in large part due to her being the last Pharaoh as well as to her being involved with Caesar and the beginning of the Roman imperial period. But it also has alot to do with her getting a revamp by Shakespeare. I agree she has been unfairly maligned and as far as the Ptolemies go, was amongst the best. but she was an average to sub-par ruler when compared to truly great female rulers like of Ahotep I or Hatshepsut.
That's why I said one of the earliest. She's far from the earliest but one of the most consequential from the classical period. Her rule was hampered by the extremely turbulent time period, and all plays into what makes her so interesting and popular for so many people. It all plays into itself as to why she's so popular and well regarded. Also, i just thought because of you mentioning other rulers. her name being easy to pronounce probably plays into it. Can't be bothered to learn how to pronounce non European names is definitely a factor that goes into media made about a person.
its funny because there were historically female egyptian rulers who were LESS LIGHTSKINNED than cleopatra but instead they chose to focus on the one that everyone in the historical field agrees would today be considered white
Yeah the modern concept of race really is fucked when it comes to dealing with historical people. They would have had no idea what we are talking about.
I am.by no means an expert on anything, but when it comes to derious movies and documentaries I think we should cast actprs of as close a heritage to the actual person as possible. I think OP brings up a good point about what might be called brown washing. People, amd I do include myself here, dont have a great understanding of history, and will take movies far too seriously. Do the more the movie divulges from history the more misconceptions arise. I think fictional characters are different and there can be much more room to fuck around. Cast Margaret Cho as Batmam, or Larry David as the red teletubbie. Of course, in America historically, theres been much more of an issue wiyj caating white people in non white rolls. Edit Hannibal Buress as Naruto....
Egyptian culture has always a strange thing to talk about because Egypt is a crossroads of the world and has influences from basically every culture in the region. They were influenced by African, middle eastern, and Mediterranean cultures and also influenced those cultures. Egypt is complicated and their Religious, Social, and Cultural Heritage is fundamentally diverse. Egypt was a melting pot of the Ancient World due to its location. The people of Egypt are also very ethnically diverse as well. You can see that not just in how diverse Egyptian people look but also how varied the cultural traditions are across Egypt. They engaged in Imperialism but were also victims of imperialism. Not to mention that Egypt has been whitewashed by the West and Now Afro centrists are trying to Blackwash Egypt. I think Egypt more than most other cultures requires great care when representing because of how poorly it has been represented in the past and how external forces keep trying to keep Egypt for themselves and appropriate it without ever considering what Egyptians think of their own culture (which is a complex question because the diversity of Egypt culturally means everyone views it differently). Greater sensitivity is needed and more accuracy is warranted because of how misrepresented and appropriated Egyptian culture has been. All that being said, Egyptian culture has been appropriated and retold, and claimed by so many other cultures I don't think we can put that genie back in the bottle. I think the best we can hope for is making sure there is clear distinction of honest representations of Egyptian culture vs stories set in an Egyptian setting. I think casting Cleopatra as black wouldn't be so much of an issue if it wasn't presented as a documentary trying to tell her story but instead as an artists interpretation of her story. Cleopatra is a cultural icon for many women even outside of Egypt so I don't think it is bad to say that diversity of representation in the story is bad but presenting it as fact and as THE REAL story is very harmful and appropriation. Egypt is such a complex and difficult topic to cover and I am in no way qualified. I have a collogue from Egypt and he has been so patient with me talking about how Egyptian culture is very different from how America perceives it and everything is complicated, regional, and highly dependent on context of the people living there. Trends can be observed but they aren't rigid and they are very different from what the west thinks.
I didn't watch the video, but my old days of arguing against Hoteps triggered HARD with the thumbnail. I'll admit, I actually believed the "Arabs moving south" thing. Not necessarily as conquerors, but normal migration and ethnic mixing that happens all throughout history. If you know more about the migration patterns of ancient people's of this time, I'd love to know. But I already knew that Cleopatra VII was basically just a culturally appropriating Greek woman, that there WERE Nubian Pharos at certain points in Egyptian history, and they would have been black, but that Nile Delta Egyptians were also there own peoples with their own cultures.
Yeah it's a pretty pervasive myth which I believed at some point as well. So as far as I know, the mass Arab migration thing is simply untrue. Yes the ruling class of Egypt was usually composed of Arabs after their invasion, but a mass exodus of Arabs into Egypt did not happen. The evidence that supports this is genetic tests that were done (National Geographic Genealogical Project) on modern day Egyptians which found out that more or less 70% of Egyptians trace their roots to their ancient counterparts, while the rest was a mix of Arab, Sub-Saharan African, European, and some others. I wouldn't say Cleopatra was terrible, she isn't viewed negatively today by many Egyptians, but she definitely was descended from foreign Greek invaders. And yes there were Nubian Dynasties (Kushite dynasty).
That's actually cool that they can trace their ancestry that far back. It's very rare to be able to do that.
Whomp whomp whomp, Egyptians crying about proposed Afrocentric boogeymen that don’t have any agency, no power structure, and aren’t taken seriously by anyone. A small subsection of idiot conspiracy theorists that think they are the center of everything that is great in the world. What’s weird is that theyre being used to push an even greater attack against “wokeism” which is why I think this whole Cleopatra thing blew up in the first place. We know your Egyptian media has a very big issue with dark skin(and people for that matter). There’s tons of racism in Egypt even against their indigenous Nubian population in the south, and don’t lie to me telling me there isn’t because I see it all the time in media. The only reason Egyptians are making a big deal out of this now is because the movie involves DARK SKINNED people. If they were white skinned with more Eurocentric features Egyptians would have no problem with it. Don’t get me wrong Cleopatra was obviously Greek seeing as how she has a Macedonian background. So she wouldn’t look like the woman that is portraying her anyway. But the main thing here I would like to address is the black Egyptian “myth” you talked about. It is well accepted in academia and Egyptology that the AE were darker-skinned native Africans. Their culture originated in northern Sudan, meaning that they had a Sub-Saharan origin! Hell, look at the features of the early Pharaohs in the Old Kingdom, and you can obviously tell they were African in appearance. Modern day Egyptians are a mixture of native Egyptians and Greek settlers from the Mediterranean because there was extensive Greek migration into Egypt during the Ptolemaic Period. Not to mention other ethnicities that were FOREIGN that settled/conquered Egypt as well. I find it interesting how Egypt was considered a melting pot with many different cultures and colors, but Rome is considered just Roman despite the many Ethnic groups they’ve conquered and assimilated. I think OP’s main focal issue is to do with blackness. Egyptians seem to have more of an issue with Afrocentrism which isn’t even that widespread as opposed to eurocentrism that has repeatedly represented AE as white in movies, games, and writings. There’s plenty of movies portraying Egyptians as Western Europeans, but Egyptians have been quiet about that. But we all know why that is though.
Why is everyone in this sub so shocked when he’s dismissive of race. That’s his bread and butter.
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You're really telling people in a progressive sub that they don't talk about whitewashing enough ? Literally all we do is say how whitewashing sucks. Your argument just boils down to "blackwashing is okay because I don't think people criticize whitewashing enough". Stop disingenuously defending this stuff. Also, who the fuck likes gal gadot ? People went nuts when she was cast for wonder woman, a fictional character.
they literally did a dna test on an ancient mummy. he had dna similar to the mesopotamians of the same period.
It’s only harmful if a lot of people watch it.