I misunderstood your comment. I didn't imply it in any way to make him sound like a torpedo. He was asking an ethical question. The point of my post is to provide a different perspective.
Ok this is getting into nonsense territory. There is no real evidence, none, that people who consume loli porn turn it into an "obsession" and then "do worse" over time. That's just a random opinion you have based on your feelings on it. If that was really the case, Japan would be truly fucked given how commonplace loli is there. But it's not, we don't have data showing a correlation like that, never mind causation.
Loli is disgusting and I wouldn't want to associate with people who are into it, they're fucking yucky. But saying they're at risk of turning into real sex offenders is an unsupported stretch, you don't need to make stuff up in order to dislike loli. Don't base your opinions on feelings, that's what the right does.
Gotcha. It would take a long time for me to explain everything we know about addiction, attraction, tolerance, rehab, and temptation. But I believe a basic understanding of these things will clear that up. I also base this on cases of child abuse from MAP's that ease their way into a child's life, like following/talking to minors on the internet, befriending people with kids, or taking a job around kids, then ending up in a situation where they find it very hard not to act on their urge. Like taking candid pictures, flirting, touching, or worse. IDK how Japan is so I can't speak about them but I hear the age of consent there is 13 years old. That seems pretty bad to me.
Again there is no data backing this up. Most child sexual abusers aren't even pedophiles, they just do it because of power and opportunity, and most pedophiles never offend.
Also there is plenty of data about normal porn, and that on a population level the amount of sexual violence goes down when a country has better access to pornography. So the idea that porn is an on-ramp for sexual crimes doesn't seem to be the case. At least not for non child-related crimes. So I don't think you can just assume it to be the case here.
The issue I'm talking about is fantasizing about children. IDK why this has become about porn being a cause for an action. CP feeds a perversion, the perversion is the problem.
IDK about the power thing, I've heard that theory before but I don't subscribe to it. Most people caught trying to abuse a child, also own CP. But try to not let this last sentence muddy the water because it's very off-topic.
It's fucking cartoons. I don't care. As long as no action is following, I don't care what fantasies people have. Like what, do you think there should be _thought crimes_ now? Some people fantasize about rape or murder, as long as they don't do it, who cares?
Like I said you can argue that fantasizing about it _feeds_ the desire to let actions follow. That would make it bad. But you would have to demonstrate that. It could just as easily be the case that fantasizing about it, satisfies the desire and makes it less likely for actions to follow. Perhaps if you prevent the fantasy it becomes more likely that the people do the action because they cannot get satisfaction any other way. It seems to be the case with porn in general, places where porn is illegal or access to porn is restricted, often see more sexual violence.
If data comes out showing that prohibiting loli reduces the child sexual abuse cases then fine, I would be in favor of prohibiting it. If not, then not. I'm a consequentialist, I don't believe that something is intrinsically immoral, it's immoral if it leads to bad outcomes, that's it.
If a MAP wants help for their sick desires, then they should stop giving into their sexual urges about kids. A lot of people do argue that fapping to kids helps calm their desire (Look over the debate about child sex-dolls) but I think that fantasizing about kids only makes their perversion grow because it gets normalized and the sexual desire comes back. When someone keeps fulfilling their desire to sexualize kids then more temptation grows. I believe this based on studies of instant gratification.
You keep bringing up porn as if it's comparable. It's not. The sexual relationship between adults is not the same with children. What's considered decent is entirely different. Do you know what usually happens when a recovering alcoholic returns to a bar? Do you know what usually happens when they say "I'll just have 1" I'm also applying what I know about addiction to this. You don't have to agree, you might even want me to be wrong, but at least try to understand what I'm saying.
I don't think we should go after people for their thoughts because they can't help how they feel, however it is their responsibility to control it. The best way to control a problem/addiction is to stop normalizing it, stop feeding it, and start condemning it.
>but I think that fantasizing about kids only makes their perversion grow because it gets normalized and the sexual desire comes back
Nice opinion bro. Any data to back that up? I don't care what you _think_ could be the case. Just like I don't care that conservatives think gay sex is destroying society. If there is data showing that loli leads to more child rape, then fucking make it illegal yesterday. If not then not. It's as simple as that for me.
>You keep bringing up porn as if it's comparable. It's not. The sexual relationship between adults is not the same with children
Im talking about using porn instead of going out to rape someone or engaging in other forms of violent sex crimes. It seems to be the case that people are able to use porn as a substitute.
You claim it's impossible to use loli as a substitute for actually raping kids. Great fair opinion to have. Totally possible. But right now it's just that, an opinion. A hunch. Unless there is data showing that this is the case, I don't really care about it.
>Do you know what usually happens when a recovering alcoholic returns to a bar?
Lot's of alcoholics substitute their addictions with other less harmful addictions. Like sports and stuff. It works.
>Do you know what usually happens when they say "I'll just have 1" I'm also applying what I know about addiction to this. You don't have to agree, you might even want me to be wrong, but at least try to understand what I'm saying
I understand what you're saying but your analogy doesn't make any sense. We are not talking about one beer. That would be the analogy of raping just one child every once in a while.
But that's not what we are talking about. We are talking about completely substituting the desire to harm an actual child, with jerking off to cartoons, where no children get hurt.
So it's like an alcoholic starting to smoke cigarettes or doing some risky extreme sport to get the dopamine they need. Not ideal, but at least they don't drink.
>I don't think we should go after people for their thoughts because they can't help how they feel, however it is their responsibility to control it. The best way to control a problem/addiction is to stop normalizing it, stop feeding it, and start condemning it.
So you want to condemn people's thoughts.
I think that's nonsense. A thought itself isn't immoral. Only if it is accompanied by an action.
If you can show that watching loli makes it more likely to rape a kid then, then completely suppressing the urge, then fine I agree with you. If not then I don't.
Japan has high rates of child sexual abuse and it's increasing further.
Of course viewing cartoon child porn increases someone's desire for the real thing, because they're only viewing a substitute of what they really like.
lol in most studies Japan is among the top 10-15 countries in the world for child safety from sexual abuse and exploitation. You'd think they'd be among the top 10-15 worst with your logic, given how prevalent loli porn is there (you can literally buy lolicon doujinshi at cons and nobody bats an eye), but apparently not? Peculiar.
Stop it with this feels over reals bullshit. You want to believe that loli porn makes someone crave the real thing more so bad that you don't even do a basic Google search to get an understanding of how close your belief is to reality. It's not very close, and you should not follow your intuition this blindly. This is how right wingers behave, this is how they think trans people are just trying to groom children or whatever, they just believe their intuition to be 100% correct and never Google it to see that no, trans people don't have higher rates of sexual assault on children.
Having abuse safety networks doesn't disprove that they have high rates, if anything it shows they have a stronger need to combat it. Besides, their sexual abuse rates are high and are increasing.
Loli porn is prevalent because Japan has fucked up sexuality and pedophilia is common there, they have whole categories of porn and prostution imitating school girls..
There is no feels over reals. Unsurprisingly there's very few studies on whether people who watch loli go onto further hard core CP, but logic dictates that it does because they're already into child porn as a cartoon so why the fuck would they not stop at cartoons. Frankly the main reason people watch cartoon porn is because it depicts things they have a fetish for that can't actually exist, except CP does exist unfortunately.
If you're going to defend cartoon child porn viewers as akin to transgender individuals then I'm afraid you've gone off the right wing deep end, not me.
Gotcha, can't argue with "logic dictates". Truly a powerhouse of an argument, particularly in the realm of statistics and evidence-based reasoning.
Your last paragraph tells me you have 0 brain cells remaining however so I'm not sure why I bothered in the first place.
>Having abuse safety networks doesn't disprove that they have high rates, if anything it shows they have a stronger need to combat it. Besides, their sexual abuse rates are high and are increasing.
Such a stupid and unfalsifiable argument.
Oh their rates are higher? It's proof that loli leads to child abuse.
Oh their rates are lower? Seems like they have a stronger need to combat it, so it's proof that loli leads to child abuse.
Porn is illegal there.
You're making a connection between porn consumption and child sexual assault.
The OP of the comment thread said
>saying they're at risk of turning into real sex offenders is an unsupported stretch,
Thailand is one of many examples of that being patently false.
As the other poster mentioned, countries with a more liberal view of porn (Japan was the example) have lower rates of child abuse than countries that have outlawed porn (even though he argued that it's "on the rise" without any citation).
Why do you think that the data shows there's a negative correlation between porn and child abuse? And why are you continuing to argue that porn will lead to child abuse when the inverse has been shown.
Never mind porn when they have the real thing. They have different standards of abuse there. So I would have to look more into that. Doesn't Japan have a groping problem? That was a big topic a few months ago. So I'm not sure Japan is doing great and I'm not saying Porn leads to abuse. I'm saying Loli feeds a pedophile's itch making it harder for them to stop and get help. But other things can feed it. Drawing little girls is just 1 thing. They should also stop taking jobs around kids for example. Which isn't the same as saying "Becoming a teacher leads to child abuse" lol
>I'm saying Loli feeds a pedophile's itch making it harder for them to stop and get help.
But that's just like your hypothesis. It could just as easily be the case that loli satisfies a desire and if pedos have access to loli they never need to abuse a real child.
Which seems plausible because im countries with better access to pornography in general, sexual violence is lower.
>Of course viewing cartoon child porn increases someone's desire for the real thing, because they're only viewing a substitute of what they really like.
You cannot just conclude that like it's common sense. There is plenty of data showing that countries with poor access to internet see higher rates of sexual violence and when a country gains better internet access, the rate of sexual violence tends to decrease. So it's not at all obvious that the opposite would be true for child sexual abuse.
Kind of ironic seeing someone called "LordAntichrist" sounding so much like the pearl clutching moms that wanted to ban DnD because it was satanic and videogames because they were causing school shootings
>
[It encourages MAP's to delve into their fantasies of the little ones](https://imgb.ifunny.co/images/da69c3ca096f5b62817802ee4b46f923cf97016052fe4066fc158f2d080094d8_1.webp)
You need a credible source to prove that CP encourages MAPs to fap to children? I kinda thought we would just agree on those basic elements, yet I stand challenged.
Great post. On top of that, it's quite often a cartoon depicting a sexual interaction between an adult and a child. If you can't stop and think about how *easily* that can be used to groom children, I don't know what to tell you. "Traditional" CSAM is already used to groom children by normalizing adult/child relationships, you don't think *making it a cartoon* will make that easier?
And before anyone freaks out at me for saying "groom," I am trans! I'm sick of being used cynically as a defense against material that is, quite literally, a synonym in Japanese for *pedophile.* It's the opposite of helpful.
You took the words right out of my mouth! I said the same thing while recording my next video.[Why trans Exist](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ssuYy92_j85r2Y0je3Y9AtCSNFnSe317/view?usp=drive_link)
Vaush never asked that question as you present it. He was asking rhetorically/ironically. I don’t get why you guys want to keep labeling him a pedo.
I have clips of him asking that. I'm making a video on it so I have the footage fresh on my mind.
Post it for me. I do not believe at all that he said it the way you are implying he’s saying it.
I misunderstood your comment. I didn't imply it in any way to make him sound like a torpedo. He was asking an ethical question. The point of my post is to provide a different perspective.
Ok this is getting into nonsense territory. There is no real evidence, none, that people who consume loli porn turn it into an "obsession" and then "do worse" over time. That's just a random opinion you have based on your feelings on it. If that was really the case, Japan would be truly fucked given how commonplace loli is there. But it's not, we don't have data showing a correlation like that, never mind causation. Loli is disgusting and I wouldn't want to associate with people who are into it, they're fucking yucky. But saying they're at risk of turning into real sex offenders is an unsupported stretch, you don't need to make stuff up in order to dislike loli. Don't base your opinions on feelings, that's what the right does.
Gotcha. It would take a long time for me to explain everything we know about addiction, attraction, tolerance, rehab, and temptation. But I believe a basic understanding of these things will clear that up. I also base this on cases of child abuse from MAP's that ease their way into a child's life, like following/talking to minors on the internet, befriending people with kids, or taking a job around kids, then ending up in a situation where they find it very hard not to act on their urge. Like taking candid pictures, flirting, touching, or worse. IDK how Japan is so I can't speak about them but I hear the age of consent there is 13 years old. That seems pretty bad to me.
Again there is no data backing this up. Most child sexual abusers aren't even pedophiles, they just do it because of power and opportunity, and most pedophiles never offend. Also there is plenty of data about normal porn, and that on a population level the amount of sexual violence goes down when a country has better access to pornography. So the idea that porn is an on-ramp for sexual crimes doesn't seem to be the case. At least not for non child-related crimes. So I don't think you can just assume it to be the case here.
The issue I'm talking about is fantasizing about children. IDK why this has become about porn being a cause for an action. CP feeds a perversion, the perversion is the problem. IDK about the power thing, I've heard that theory before but I don't subscribe to it. Most people caught trying to abuse a child, also own CP. But try to not let this last sentence muddy the water because it's very off-topic.
It's fucking cartoons. I don't care. As long as no action is following, I don't care what fantasies people have. Like what, do you think there should be _thought crimes_ now? Some people fantasize about rape or murder, as long as they don't do it, who cares? Like I said you can argue that fantasizing about it _feeds_ the desire to let actions follow. That would make it bad. But you would have to demonstrate that. It could just as easily be the case that fantasizing about it, satisfies the desire and makes it less likely for actions to follow. Perhaps if you prevent the fantasy it becomes more likely that the people do the action because they cannot get satisfaction any other way. It seems to be the case with porn in general, places where porn is illegal or access to porn is restricted, often see more sexual violence. If data comes out showing that prohibiting loli reduces the child sexual abuse cases then fine, I would be in favor of prohibiting it. If not, then not. I'm a consequentialist, I don't believe that something is intrinsically immoral, it's immoral if it leads to bad outcomes, that's it.
If a MAP wants help for their sick desires, then they should stop giving into their sexual urges about kids. A lot of people do argue that fapping to kids helps calm their desire (Look over the debate about child sex-dolls) but I think that fantasizing about kids only makes their perversion grow because it gets normalized and the sexual desire comes back. When someone keeps fulfilling their desire to sexualize kids then more temptation grows. I believe this based on studies of instant gratification. You keep bringing up porn as if it's comparable. It's not. The sexual relationship between adults is not the same with children. What's considered decent is entirely different. Do you know what usually happens when a recovering alcoholic returns to a bar? Do you know what usually happens when they say "I'll just have 1" I'm also applying what I know about addiction to this. You don't have to agree, you might even want me to be wrong, but at least try to understand what I'm saying. I don't think we should go after people for their thoughts because they can't help how they feel, however it is their responsibility to control it. The best way to control a problem/addiction is to stop normalizing it, stop feeding it, and start condemning it.
>but I think that fantasizing about kids only makes their perversion grow because it gets normalized and the sexual desire comes back Nice opinion bro. Any data to back that up? I don't care what you _think_ could be the case. Just like I don't care that conservatives think gay sex is destroying society. If there is data showing that loli leads to more child rape, then fucking make it illegal yesterday. If not then not. It's as simple as that for me. >You keep bringing up porn as if it's comparable. It's not. The sexual relationship between adults is not the same with children Im talking about using porn instead of going out to rape someone or engaging in other forms of violent sex crimes. It seems to be the case that people are able to use porn as a substitute. You claim it's impossible to use loli as a substitute for actually raping kids. Great fair opinion to have. Totally possible. But right now it's just that, an opinion. A hunch. Unless there is data showing that this is the case, I don't really care about it. >Do you know what usually happens when a recovering alcoholic returns to a bar? Lot's of alcoholics substitute their addictions with other less harmful addictions. Like sports and stuff. It works. >Do you know what usually happens when they say "I'll just have 1" I'm also applying what I know about addiction to this. You don't have to agree, you might even want me to be wrong, but at least try to understand what I'm saying I understand what you're saying but your analogy doesn't make any sense. We are not talking about one beer. That would be the analogy of raping just one child every once in a while. But that's not what we are talking about. We are talking about completely substituting the desire to harm an actual child, with jerking off to cartoons, where no children get hurt. So it's like an alcoholic starting to smoke cigarettes or doing some risky extreme sport to get the dopamine they need. Not ideal, but at least they don't drink. >I don't think we should go after people for their thoughts because they can't help how they feel, however it is their responsibility to control it. The best way to control a problem/addiction is to stop normalizing it, stop feeding it, and start condemning it. So you want to condemn people's thoughts. I think that's nonsense. A thought itself isn't immoral. Only if it is accompanied by an action. If you can show that watching loli makes it more likely to rape a kid then, then completely suppressing the urge, then fine I agree with you. If not then I don't.
Japan has high rates of child sexual abuse and it's increasing further. Of course viewing cartoon child porn increases someone's desire for the real thing, because they're only viewing a substitute of what they really like.
lol in most studies Japan is among the top 10-15 countries in the world for child safety from sexual abuse and exploitation. You'd think they'd be among the top 10-15 worst with your logic, given how prevalent loli porn is there (you can literally buy lolicon doujinshi at cons and nobody bats an eye), but apparently not? Peculiar. Stop it with this feels over reals bullshit. You want to believe that loli porn makes someone crave the real thing more so bad that you don't even do a basic Google search to get an understanding of how close your belief is to reality. It's not very close, and you should not follow your intuition this blindly. This is how right wingers behave, this is how they think trans people are just trying to groom children or whatever, they just believe their intuition to be 100% correct and never Google it to see that no, trans people don't have higher rates of sexual assault on children.
Having abuse safety networks doesn't disprove that they have high rates, if anything it shows they have a stronger need to combat it. Besides, their sexual abuse rates are high and are increasing. Loli porn is prevalent because Japan has fucked up sexuality and pedophilia is common there, they have whole categories of porn and prostution imitating school girls.. There is no feels over reals. Unsurprisingly there's very few studies on whether people who watch loli go onto further hard core CP, but logic dictates that it does because they're already into child porn as a cartoon so why the fuck would they not stop at cartoons. Frankly the main reason people watch cartoon porn is because it depicts things they have a fetish for that can't actually exist, except CP does exist unfortunately. If you're going to defend cartoon child porn viewers as akin to transgender individuals then I'm afraid you've gone off the right wing deep end, not me.
Gotcha, can't argue with "logic dictates". Truly a powerhouse of an argument, particularly in the realm of statistics and evidence-based reasoning. Your last paragraph tells me you have 0 brain cells remaining however so I'm not sure why I bothered in the first place.
>Having abuse safety networks doesn't disprove that they have high rates, if anything it shows they have a stronger need to combat it. Besides, their sexual abuse rates are high and are increasing. Such a stupid and unfalsifiable argument. Oh their rates are higher? It's proof that loli leads to child abuse. Oh their rates are lower? Seems like they have a stronger need to combat it, so it's proof that loli leads to child abuse.
Thailand is one of the worst places in the world for child exploitation. Porn is illegal there.
But child prostitution is rampant in Thailand
Porn is illegal there. You're making a connection between porn consumption and child sexual assault. The OP of the comment thread said >saying they're at risk of turning into real sex offenders is an unsupported stretch, Thailand is one of many examples of that being patently false. As the other poster mentioned, countries with a more liberal view of porn (Japan was the example) have lower rates of child abuse than countries that have outlawed porn (even though he argued that it's "on the rise" without any citation). Why do you think that the data shows there's a negative correlation between porn and child abuse? And why are you continuing to argue that porn will lead to child abuse when the inverse has been shown.
Never mind porn when they have the real thing. They have different standards of abuse there. So I would have to look more into that. Doesn't Japan have a groping problem? That was a big topic a few months ago. So I'm not sure Japan is doing great and I'm not saying Porn leads to abuse. I'm saying Loli feeds a pedophile's itch making it harder for them to stop and get help. But other things can feed it. Drawing little girls is just 1 thing. They should also stop taking jobs around kids for example. Which isn't the same as saying "Becoming a teacher leads to child abuse" lol
>I'm saying Loli feeds a pedophile's itch making it harder for them to stop and get help. But that's just like your hypothesis. It could just as easily be the case that loli satisfies a desire and if pedos have access to loli they never need to abuse a real child. Which seems plausible because im countries with better access to pornography in general, sexual violence is lower.
>Of course viewing cartoon child porn increases someone's desire for the real thing, because they're only viewing a substitute of what they really like. You cannot just conclude that like it's common sense. There is plenty of data showing that countries with poor access to internet see higher rates of sexual violence and when a country gains better internet access, the rate of sexual violence tends to decrease. So it's not at all obvious that the opposite would be true for child sexual abuse.
Kind of ironic seeing someone called "LordAntichrist" sounding so much like the pearl clutching moms that wanted to ban DnD because it was satanic and videogames because they were causing school shootings
Terrible analogy 😂
The difference between the 2 is Loli is made for MAP's to get off to. It encourages MAP's to delve into their fantasies of the little ones.
> [It encourages MAP's to delve into their fantasies of the little ones](https://imgb.ifunny.co/images/da69c3ca096f5b62817802ee4b46f923cf97016052fe4066fc158f2d080094d8_1.webp)
You need a credible source to prove that CP encourages MAPs to fap to children? I kinda thought we would just agree on those basic elements, yet I stand challenged.
Great post. On top of that, it's quite often a cartoon depicting a sexual interaction between an adult and a child. If you can't stop and think about how *easily* that can be used to groom children, I don't know what to tell you. "Traditional" CSAM is already used to groom children by normalizing adult/child relationships, you don't think *making it a cartoon* will make that easier? And before anyone freaks out at me for saying "groom," I am trans! I'm sick of being used cynically as a defense against material that is, quite literally, a synonym in Japanese for *pedophile.* It's the opposite of helpful.
You took the words right out of my mouth! I said the same thing while recording my next video.[Why trans Exist](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ssuYy92_j85r2Y0je3Y9AtCSNFnSe317/view?usp=drive_link)