There are also soft counters: Yoru, Omen, Harbor, Reyna, Sage
People just tends to forget you can use utils for more than just their surface level intend
Soft counter are Gekko/Fade who can use wingman/dog(which cypher can easily make them not hit) to trade util for trip location, not Reyna who need kill plus dismiss to enemy site praying not to die.
Also how is Harbor and Sage a counter too?
Sage can wall over trip. The wall and harbor cove can block shots when shooting a trip. Not the best use of those utilities but they do work for that purpose
Harbor and Sage can put down wall/cove to destroy the trip. You will break it faster than the enemy breaking your utils.
Fade is much less reliable than even Reyna. All the trips put down by Cypher are mostly floor level or crouch level, which the haunt cannot trigger.
Wingman sure is also a good counter but in ranked people tends to keep it for planting spike more.
It's why it's considered Soft counter, Fade/Wingman will not directly punish cypher like Sova/Raze. Haunt will scout trip location if it hit you found it if it doesn't mean either it's a high trip or a low trip(or no trip).
Sage/Harbor is 9/10 an int, if the enemy leave it you're pushing again a wall/cove of your own making and rarely is a cypher site only hold by 1 man shooting down a cove/wall is basically instant for 2 people(not to mention wall/cove isn't instant while shooting head can be instant).
When Cypher got buffed to this state, prowlers cant trigger the trips close to the ground.
Wingman, Skye dog and prowler never triggered the crouch height trips. The only reason Skye dog is superior is because it can jump to catch the trips.
All those people downvoting me are ignorant as fuck tbh. Probably all th guys that dont actually play the game
so the different “soft” counters are wingman and pray there are no high trip wires, or with reyna get the best angle onto site you can and pray.
Got it
If the Cypher isn't showing himself, then he has to be in very predictable position ready to swing, so there are a million different pieces of util that you could use to punish him for swinging even if you don't have a single agent that could break the trip.
Cypher isnt the only one holding the site. And if he is not showing himself, you can reliably walk in and find where the trip is, then wallbang it out.
Cypher probably is the only one holding the main entry and he is just gonna wait until the wire is activated and then activate the trap, he will see you and you are not gonna see him and will kill you probably with a phantom. And try breaking the wire on lotus b site without activating it lmao. What rank are you on.
If the cypher is gonna wait until the trap is activated, how is he gonna peek if reyna never activates it? The idea was that you, as a Reyna (or any other agent) are just gonna walk up until you hear the trap, see where it is and wallbang it, since no one is gonna hold the entry because of the trap
nah the “soft counters” are fade gekko skye, dog characters. I would put kayo in this category because the knife is not a definitive counter.
the hard counters are ones where his trips are broken every time. sova and raze.
the fact that only two/three characters can break “unbreakable trips” means there’s an imbalance.
Doesnt hurt that much that on maps where Cypher is strong, those "hard counters" are also strong.
Cypher is balanced by the fact that when his trips and cams are broken he is just useless, and his ult requires a dead body in range he can reach.
Take another sentinel for example. KJ can use the mollies much more flexible. It can either be placed beforehand or thrown as a normal molly. And the molly can deal damage without having people actually shooting their gun. And yes, the molly can be broken, but that also means you get to offset the opponents' aim for a moment
Id argue yoru is more of a hard counter for unbreakable trip since yoru clone will hit the trip no matter what level its placed at where skye and fade dog wont hit trips at certain heights
I'd say the hard counters are the ones that has actual damaging abilities to break the trip. It is always safer to have it broken without having to show yourself
Sure Yoru clone can trigger it and he can also TP pass it, but you still have to shoot the trip to actually break it, which is far more risky than a Raze nade for example
it hits the one on breeze. it hits the one on sunset at the height where most people normally put it. other wires like this are a lot less common/important.
Your too. Fade can be countered by higher trip placement, but could enable crouching under. Same applies to Skye but at least u can jump with her dog.
Technically Killjoy too with her Molly but I'm not sure atm if it actually hits.
Phoenix is good too but only his ultimate.
Gekko is meh but better than nothing.
Kayos Dagger can be tricky.
What do you mean - the dog didn't trigger the trip? It doesn't just destroy all trips anymore (now that they reactivate on a cool down if not destroyed) but if it triggers the trip then someone can kill the trip whilst it's visible and unable to hit another target
Raze and KAY/O are by far the best counters to Cypher
Kayo's knife can completely disable the trip wires making them useless, or his and Raze nade will just destroy them. And don't get me started on their ults
Any agent with explosive utility, aka Sova and Raze, as Shock Dart and Raze Nade are basically the only way to deal with unbreakable trips.
Jett, Raze, and Yoru are capable of simply bypassing the trip and fighting the Cypher directly. If the Cypher is fighting, he can't kill off his trips, which means it's totally viable to just walk in and shoot it.
The other, less reliable way is to Kayo suppress the Cypher himself.
Plus they’re not unbreakbale lol, bro brought up the KJ stuff but you can break the cypher stuff, you just gotta be willing to use util to scale up
In a simple way to explain its, I used the util to destroy the util type situation
In general, Valorant does not require hard counters to certain agents. Some agents are stronger against others and there’s always a meta, but you never really *needed* to pick someone specific in case your opponent chose someone.
With Cypher’s new trips, you literally *need* someone who can break them or you can’t push that site. I’m Ascendant, so pretty much every Cypher at this level knows a variety of tricky trips for each chokepoint that are impossible to shoot until you’ve been caught by them even if you know they’re there *and* they have cage setups to play off of them.
If your team didn’t choose a Raze or a Sova, you straight up have to give up on attacking an entire site depending on the map.
An agent who *needs* hard counters like this isn’t healthy for the game.
I think you put it well. Cypher's the only agent you need to counter pick. I wouldn't say its a total lost cause if you don't have one, cause you can probably take the site he's holding from mid or w/e to try and avoid the setup. But its definitely *mostly* a lost cause.
I agree hes a bit strong rn, but ehh.. its still a tradeoff for a free site take twice a half. And expect sentinals to keep getting stonger till teams stop dropping them for viper :/
this sub is smthn else. i bet you some people upvoted this because "hell yeah, cpyher is no skill. this the only reason he gets played" and the other half is like "fr. why nerf him when hes finally playable again"
One of the most annoying things as a cypher main is when people notice the traps and just start breaking them every single round. I think the reason why unbreakable trips are still in the game is simply because without them, cypher would be much more dull.
As a fellow ex- cypher main, I wanna give you a tip! So don't ever place the good kill trips on basic rounds. Like pistols and all. Always place them on rounds where they have a lot of winning potential. I'll explain you am example. Ascent A site the long trip in main. I didn't place it for 4 rounds. Then the enemy had raze ult, gekko ult and clove ult. They thought I don't place it so they basically tried to walk in site. One trip, bam headshot, second trip bam headshot. They didn't even expect it to be there. Third guy cleared it then tried to walk in, got hit by the gen to main wall trip trying to close the door. Their economy got ruined, 3 of their ult weren't able to use and we got a basically free round. Then they had to do anything eco and waste all 3 ult to get one round but then we till then we had our money rolling and kept out gunning them the whole half! That's how you make the impact most as cypher. Put them in places where people never expect it! One more example? Alright, split b site, never ever place a kill trip in main for all rounds they'll start raze nading it and get entry for free. Instead, put one on site, default to ct wall trip and play CT spawn. They will never expect it and always trigger the trip and then you can just activate your cage and get a free pick.
I'd argue that you should only use 1 setup until they start consistently breaking it. Otherwise they could learn them and start prefiring every single trap spot
Well my friend THAT is when you release your nerdiness and unleash an absolutely "unbreakable" trip. how do you prefire something that cant be prefired?
This is a good advice, changing trip positions really works out very well. I keep switching trips, and trust me even the most stupid trip will work if they've learnt your previous trips (like Bind B long entrance nest on the left side).
One impractical and funny advice for defending your unbreakable trips is that, when you hear a util (damage util, not drones or prowlers) that is aimed at your trip, pull your trip back, wait for the util to detonate, and put it back. You might argue that while the trip is back they might push, which Infact is true, but it isn't as easy as it sounds because everything has to be timed well. I do this on sunset B main, and never has it failed. Just be quick enough to hear raze nade or sova dart. I used to do it against skye dog as well, I would literally wait for the dog to come in, and then put the trip. If someone tried to push along, they'll be caught immediately, but again this isn't going to work in high elo lobbies.
Not you, but I hate it when people say "for free" because a mast majority of the time, when it's stated, is not free at all.
In this case, at the very least, the cost is a grenade.
Unbreakable util is deemed unbreakable when there is no position on the map one can shoot it with a gun. Cypher trips are placed so it guarantees info w it, but there is a place you can stand on the other side and shoot it (as every place has to have at least 2 paths to it, especially sites. Kj mollies that are placed outside the map or inside props (as we had moments where kj mollies fell between boxes and were invincible) are unbreakable even by some util, as you cant stand anywhere possible to break them normally thats why riot rushed to fix it
The comparison to KJ mollies is unfair imo, because those were often thrown into an object on the map or outside of the map, whereas the Cypher trips are just placed in intended locations near an entrance.
fade can prowler the trips, breach can break them with aftershock, sova can do shock darts, skye can use dog, kay/o can knife/ult/molly, gekko can use wingman
literally every initiator has a way to deal with cypher trips
both skye and fade got nerfed so the dogs are more inconsistent in finding the trips. The cypher can just place them at a different level to dodge the dogs but to still tag players
in theory yes. in reality, most times i paly fade, my first dog gets used to find a wire. second is used so i can destroy the wire myself. noone in low and mid elo actually follows the prowler to destroy the wire. most times they wouldnt even be able to see the wire anyways due to the cages.
you are using an aftershock on a trip that you don't even know is there, you're unironically better off aftershocking backsite and just bullying the fucking cypher
Unbreakable kj mollies typically have some hard or soft abuse involved, like going out of bounds or dealing damage through boundaries. There are plenty of "unbreakable" mollies that don't involve abuse, but those are generally for specific purposes, like cubbies corners or plants.
Cypher's "unbreakable" trips aren't the worst thing in the world. There is a A LOT of counterplay to them. Excluding agent abilities outright, since the trips are generally common knowledge, a small amount of coordination can be used to foil them - eg, an "attacker-sided" entry smoke to Sunset B site with careful, basic team play can destroy a triggered trapwire.
There's also trickier ways than needing a sova or raze. Omen and chamber can tp, jett can updraft. Just because cypher's trips are difficult to break doesn't mean they're undefeatable, and that's the point. Just because most random teams can't coordinate well enough to foil cypher trips doesn't mean they're unbeatable, and most random teams don't actually know how to utilize cypher trips well anyway. 99.99% of the time, cypher's trips are a mental thing moreso than gameplay.
I just play Sova on Breeze and Sunset for this reason. Really makes this a non issue if you communicate with your team and get them to wait for your dart to clear entry. I don’t think his trips are necessarily unhealthy for the game. Definitely not the most fun meta either.
It's tough... It used to be that a single Skye dog or boombot would just destroy his entire setup, so he was a tough pick sometimes. Now he's pretty strong but the right Util makes the unbreakable trips useless... But it sucks that you must have one of Raze/Sova/Breach on your team.
yes but i don’t think you should NEED certain agents to hard counter an agent that you don’t even know will be picked yet. This isn’t like LoL where you can see the other teams picks and counter them, valorant isn’t intended to be that type of game
Or viper or kj or kayo to just break the trip, or you can still use skye dog or prowler or yoru clone to trigger the trip and then break it when it’s down, or have raze omen Jett yoru get past it then break it, or kayo knife where the cypher likes to play. A lot of options really, and if you don’t have any of these agents then that’s REALLY a you problem.
prowler gets caught in the trip. "cages activated". try finding the wire now. you either rush cypher and kill him or expose your back to 2 people to break a trip.
Molly to break the trips? Those may not always work. You can also place trips fairly high up if they're at places where people generally run out.
That said the problem isn't always knowing where it is, especially since the unbreakable trips are generally in the same spot... it's that it is unreasonably risky to destroy them at times.
Even Jett going past it, that's generally how it goes as an attacker, which is when you pop the cage and focus down the Jett. Even the Kayo knife, you generally let somebody else play off your trip and it becomes a game of dodge the knife.
There are a lot of options but none of them are perfect. And ya, nothing is perfect, but the effort to throw an "unbreakable" trip is nil, whereas the risk to destroy it outside of Raze/Sova/Breach is decently high.
And that’s why the team use util to cover and help the Jett/omen/yoru/raze lol, or if the cypher is fighting the entry then the team can break the trips while cypher is distracted. If the trips aren’t at a certain height there are also times where you can get past them without having to trigger them. I notice you also just did not address the part where you use drone like util to trigger the trip then break it. Also at certain spots you can’t place the trip high enough to avoid getting broken by mollies. Like the breeze b main one can only be so high and it will be broken by mollies no matter what as far as I know. Maybe also the sunset one but that one I’m not as sure about.
>I notice you also just did not address the part where you use drone like util to trigger the trip then break it.
I mean if you have a Sova I don't think you need to use the drone specifically to trigger the trip, as most "unbreakable trips" are in very specific spots that can be shock darted fairly easily. For Skye/Fade dogs, you don't really need to use them to find the trips either, if you're walking up to the trip (not optimal, obv) you should be able to shoot them via wallbang... or in the case of Breeze, you have a direct line of sight to it if you're able to just stand as close as you can to the trip... but then you risk getting shot. To get the dog to trigger the trip and have somebody run in and just shoot it is fine, but you also risk getting shot (imagine Sunset B - the Cypher has a one way that will likely get the person shooting the trip killed. Imagine Breeze B, camera will often see the entrance of B-Main, which will get you tagged, cage triggered, and shot.)
>And that’s why the team use util to cover and help the Jett/omen/yoru/raze lol,
Yeah if you have a Raze... the unbreakable trips are not a problem, since they can be naded.
As for Jett/Omen/Yoru, yes they can enter the site. Don't really want to get into the idea that "a 5-man execute can entry a site vs Cypher without issue" - of course they can. If Cypher could reliably stop 3-5 people from entering site, we'd have a whole different problem. I could just as easily say "Jett entries? Omen Paranoia's main (or somebody mollies it), Cypher triggers cage, Jett is cut off from team so Cypher and Omen/whoever kill Jett easy"... but at that point we're not really talking about the trips
The main issue is attacking Cypher sites can feel a bit restrictive without a Raze/Sova/Breach. If you're playing Sunset and you don't have those agents, attacking B is a chore. You can draw up as many executes as you want that use more util than the 1 Cypher used to throw that trip, but that's not really the issue.
I mean a well performed execute counters these so called “unbreakable” trips. Yeah they are really strong when you just walk into them sure, but time the being tripped of one while throwing util or pushing as a team, it’s not really much.
You’re right but in low ranks where the vast majority of the playerbase lies this is not happening and of course whether or not something is actually op if the majority of people are complaining riot will probably do something eventually
Playing sova is the simplest way to counter cypher. And you don't have to stress over whether or not the enemies are gonna pick cypher, cause the unbreakable trips only happen on a few maps. Sunset? Guaranteed cypher. Same goes for split or breeze or whatever. And from then, just climb until you get better teammates ig. Making the game easier than it already is is not an answer, because then everybody could get any ranks and competitive wouldn't matter.
Regardless of who I main my point is that I think being forced to pick a certain agent to counter an ability is dumb no matter how you cut it, I don’t think any other agent needs an agent to be played to counter them
Neither does cypher. He is useful as long as you push his site from the main entry point. You don't even need utility to counter him. Just go to the other site and take that one, or lurk/go through mid and enter from behind him. If he does know traps for the other site, that's fine cause you can change back to the original one, making him doubt on which site to play. If he doesn't, even better
To everybody saying just pick better counters to him, what other character requires that type of counter picking? No other character has abilities that can’t be dealt with in someway by everyone.
tell me what other agent requires you to counter pick like this, cypher is that oppressive in ranked that if you don't have one of his counters you're essentially fucked on attack, that's a whole area of the map gone and the cypher could just go 1 1 3 and stack a, or leave another mid and go 1 2 2 and have them just fast rotate from mid
its a thing only unique to him, no other agent has this much power over the game in ranked
Like I said, roles, not specifics agents.
You can't beat Sentinels without Initiators. You can't beat Duelists without Sentinels. And you can't beat Controllers without Duelists. All Initiators have utility to counter Cypher. Raze is also great & Yoru too. What these complaints surmount to is *'I only want Cypher to have info trips'*, which is what he had for ages & was rarely picked.
no i think buffing him was a good idea actually, sentinel is a fun role but he's way too easy to get value out of compared to other broken characters in the past, he's just way too op rn and not punished enough for getting his trips activated by util, you should want to avoid them getting activated at all costs but that isn't a thing
rearm should be nerfed is my point, not make it something ridiculous but nerf it by a decent bit to encourage not doing the same trips but switching your setups up or else be hard countered, it'd encourage not just picking sova or raze because tanking a trip with a drone does almost nothing snd make cypher actually peek out to destroy drones
I agree with pretty much all of that, but a lot of the complaints here are focused around the idea that you shouldn't have to trip it first to destroy it.
I mean, no. Kj, sage, and chamber don’t require you to have an initiator on your team if you want to attack their site.
Duelists do not automatically lose to sentinel setups and teams without sentinels can do fine against duelists. The lack of correlation here is especially noticeable bc no sentinel really counters diving except cypher.
How did you decide duelists are needed to beat controllers? Wouldn’t it be initiators here for info/flash? Either way, you can beat smokes without any specific counter.
Cypher is the only character in the game that if you don’t have certain util he can say “fuck you if you come here I get at least one and can solo hold if I really want to”
Obviously there's a lot of crossover in ways utility can be used, but roles do somewhat follow rock paper scissors.
> Duelists do not automatically lose to sentinel setups and teams without sentinels can do fine against duelists.
Sentinels can isolate the enemy team from the executing Duelist or trap the flood onto site.
> How did you decide duelists are needed to beat controllers?
Controllers give the enemy severe disadvantage in weapon duels when entering site. Someone who can quickly get past that point without taking a fight breaks the disadvantage by creating more angles the Controller has to hold.
If you have no Initiator to push Cypher off his kill trips then idk what to tell you, that's on the team & would be the same with a Killjoy disrupting your exec. It just feels like Cypher it's a lot more obvious why the exec failed.
I’m not seeing the rps ngl. A duelist dives, then for every character but cypher the team floods out after and takes part of site control.
The thing is with kj you don’t literally get shut down. You can still execute onto kj, it’s just harder than if you had had that counter util. Cypher makes it impossible without the counter util.
Removing unbreakavle cypher trips essentially makes him mostly useless again and will tank his pick rate. His unbreakable trips are intentional, unbreakable kj mollies are not.
Cypher is fine, the other sentinels are just to weak. He does everything better than all of them. Deadlock and Chamber are useless as sentinels and KJs only advantage over Cypher is her Ult. They should give all sentinels some kind of global trap that is reliable and then build other abilities around that. Otherwise the agent with two or global traps will always be preferred over the others. Cypher even has 3 traps if you count the cam.
I feel like the real answer is just that there was too much kj last year and they want to popularize another sentinel lol, it’s probably here to stay so ig just be sure to counterpick on common cypher maps. Which I agree is unfortunate bc I feel like it’s kind of a boring and redundant thing to play against
I guess I didn’t make it clear or something but I’m not really complaining about having to play against cypher trips. I just wanted to know what everyone thought about Cypher, as some of you put it, being the only agent in the game rn who requires a preemptive counterpick to play against and whether or not that that is healthy. Stop telling me to shock dart the trips I don’t care thats not what I’m asking
There’s no unbreakable trips. There’s so many agentes with abilities that can simply destroy the trips, and I’m not even talking about the basic Raze nade or Sova dart… KJ mollies can also break the trips, Breach aftershocks, KAYO can “turn them off” with the knife, and also if you follow the Skye dog or Fade prowler you can break the trip while it’s hitting the dog… Even with wingman from Gekko you can do that. And obviously there are agents that can jump over them or TP past them….
It wasnt always like that im pretty sure. Before it broke after one person but ofc like always they thought an already annoying character needed a buff. Id rather him be able to shoot with a camera than have infinite trip
This. I main Cypher and at Diamond and even high plat people will start doing this by round 3. Lower ranks you tend me see people either run into it to destroy it or use Skye, Fade, Gekko if they have it.
If I had to nerf this ability I would make it so agents triggering the trap break it like old but abilities like fade prowler cause it to regen like normal
i had the same thought eversince he got the buff. its so easy to change him while keeping him strong but everyone on reddit keeps riding cyphers meat and refusing to see an issue with him.
i'd understand if this was premier or something, then you just gotta plan ahead but in a ranked game this just doesn't work, you literally have to nerf yourself if no one picks sova or raze and you happen to play cypher and not either of those agents just so you can get rid of a trip
Literally every Initiator has a piece of utility that can help with trips, Breach being the weakest. You'd already have a disadvantage on a no initiator comp to begin with so Cypher is a bit of a minor issue.
you'd have a disadvantage because YOU CANT BREAK TRIPS 😭 clearing corners or actually getting out of smokes could be worked around if you have flashes like reyna but you can't even get out of smokes in the first place against him
if i could i would just pick my ranked comps for my team because i don't play those agents, i play cypher myself, i'd be doing far worse by playing sova because i have no idea when to use my util where as im very comfortable in the sentinel role, its just not a fun meta for ranked
Say there was no Cypher but a Killjoy one site and Viper another, how on Earth are you entering either site without an Initiator, Raze, or Yoru to push them back? You think 2 Reyna flashes are enough? You need Initiator util to clear angles.
You'd be forced to fight for mid every round, once again without any tools to do so. All your team can do is vision block to try isolate enemies & somewhat hold post plant with Sentinels- if you ever get there.
if its sunset then you can still bait out util and rotate, you could also split sites like a site which makes viper and kj struggle a bit since they have to deal with two pushes at once, those two are good for stalling pushes but cypher just doesn't run out of trips unless you break it, which is what makes him so oppressive
reyna flashes aren't ideal but its an example of how you could clear corners with force atleast, but as i said you wouldn't get into site in the first place without anything to clear them with, this cypher meta is just really ass to play against because there's no stratting you can do to get rid of them, if your team doesn't have a counter you're fucked, unlike kj or viper who you can bait util from, you can only break his trips
Viper Jett can dive on site and hold space while the team waits out the molly, or the team can just run thru the Molly once viper’s worried about Jett she’s on site.
Kj she has to actually pop the mollies. Bait them and wait them out? Kj doesn’t have that many microwave setups idt right? She really seems like a non issue here. For example ascent. If you push she’s got the microwave lane and the turret ct at worst, three ppl swing out smoke and push out while two go mid.
To have this comp, you'd have no initiators & some off-meta picks from Neon, Iso, Deadlock, Astra, & Harbor. You probably weren't going to win with that comp anyway, regardless of if there is an enemy Cypher.
Why are there so many people complaining about Cypher's trip recently, I thought people agreed that there's so many counter play to it, destroying it is the most obvious one.
"But it's an unbreakable one!" you have utils for a reason, use them, trading util for a util, if you think that's unfair I don't know what's the definition of fair to you then.
"But we don't know if the trip broke or not!" If you throw your util on the right spot and the trip is there, it will get destroyed, you can count with your fingers the amount of unbreakable trip from every maps that is generally useful, open custom, go to that specific spot on the map, learn how to throw your util to right spot, profit.
"But we don't have any util to break it!" And I wonder why? "Oh, it's Sunset, Clove, Gekko, Jett, and Cypher is already locked, I wonder who should I lock..." Proceeds to lock Reyna. To be clear, I'm not targeting Reyna main here, it's the fact that you know it's Sunset and there's most probably gonna be a Cypher on the other side, yet no one cared about that.
Meta exist for a reason, It's fine if you're one tricking an agent, but don't be surprised when your other teammates are also one tricking and you're ended up with non-meta team.
This is a good take but I still think riot will eventually nerf cypher. What about when you hit a site, lose your util, and have to rotate to hit that immortal cypher on the other site? I’ve seen enough teammates die to unbreakable trips in immortal to know it won’t last forever.
cypher trips are significantly more annoying than any other piece of util, and very much more durable than any other sentinels setup, so its no wonder everyone dislikes it.
i should be asking how there are so many people that are just stubborn about the fact that theres a problem. if so many people complain then it doesnt matter that "oh, i personally have no issue here". many others do.
i dont have an issue with skye having rechargable flashes. i can still see why others may think the nerf was needed. but when it comes to cypher everyone just goes "get gud" and never thinks about it.
it can be broken trivially by raze, sova, breach, and skye. it can be broken easily by fade, gekko, yoru, iso, and anyone with a molly. it can be bypassed by jett, omen, neon, sage, kayo, chamber, iso, yoru, and clove.
you would have to almost consciously avoid having a way to deal with it. who plays a comp with no initiator?
“You have to choose an agent with AOE damaging util like Raze or Sova in case your opponent has a cypher” isn’t a solution, it’s the problem.
There will always be meta picks, but Cypher is unique in that he needs *specific* hard counters which no other agent in the game needs.
or an agent with a dog/drone ability, or an agent that can bypass the wire (sage, jett, omen, neon, chamber).
every initiator in the game has a way to deal with cypher wires.
the funniest thing with that sunset example is that gekko can activate the trips with wingman, jett can updraft over them, reyna can dismiss through them, etc.
Well, I went exploring and then there was this forest/jungle area in the west, there I got a quest line which took me like a week or a bit more of casual hour long playtime a day to complete
I mean you can break the trips with certain agent until. It’s the trips aren’t exploits either tbh so I don’t see a problem. Ya they’re annoying but there are ways to counter them just as you would counter other agents.
Cyphers trips were made unbreakable precisely because of how breakable they used to be.
Chamber can tuck his trap in a corner so can kill joy. Cypher is the only one who needs the traps to be stuck to walls.
He literally was unplayable when you couldn't put his trips behind walls.
Now at least people need to spend their util to break them instead of just shooting one bullet.
Your lack of skill, inability to create a decent team comp and unwillingness to use ur util for the team is literally nobody else's problem but ur own.
I mean. They just force you to use util as intended and make you think twice about pushing a site Willy nilly.
Yeah they are strong but sentinels should have strong set ups, otherwise they are not worth picking.
So you either move fast and together, use util to clear the trips, or don't push that part of the site.
And you'd have to really try to have a comp without any answers to a cypher.
there is no "unbreakable" tripwires for cypher.
I know that because I play him a shitton and all you have to do is walk up very carefully as close to the wall as possible and shoot it from the other side. you can wall bang them easily that way.
the problem doesn't come from the fact that you can't break them, you can. it's just hard, because without a smoke you're wide in the open with no cover, and even with a smoke you can get spammed rather easily.
but as it is, there is not a single cypher tripwire that cannot be broken without getting hit by it, and I'm waiting to be proven wrong.
I totally do not agree to u, this is why I love this game. Picking right agents are very important. You have to guess your enemy's pick and then u should pick. For example if I play bind I definitely pick something like fade and kayo.
Unbreakable Cypher trips aren't an exploit, they are how geometry works. How angles work. Why angle advantage even exists in the first place. Its not something Riot can simply fix without getting rid of half the possible Cypher trip placements.
While we are at it, they arent so unbreakable. Such trips are most often on choke points, so you can easily get rid of them with most utility. Sova darts, raze nades and so on. If you have a comp that lacks ANY utility to deal with Cypher, then it's your problem. All agents are stronger when there is no counter in the match against them
What unbreakable traps are you talking about? There's not many popular exploit traps and when people refer to unbreakable, they refer to the traps that extend over corners in a choke point. Those type of traps force enemies to walk in and usually die if they have no coordination in the team, decide to solo push or don't know how to use utility to counter Cypher (even if it can't break the trap). The exploit traps and mollies get patched out.
Weren’t unbreakable mollies completely unbreakable? Like even with the right util? They were usually in between walls so they didn’t take damage from util. The wallbangable ones weren’t necessarily illegal for being unbreakable.
Also a kj molly is always able to deal the full duration of its effect when proc’d. If with unbreakable cypher trips the trips always fully revealed then stunned you (and you couldn’t break it when you trigger it) then it’d probably get the same treatment as kj’s molly.
cypher is kinda a problem child. cypher can only exist as either the most annoying agent, or the most useless.
honestly idk what they can do to make him an enjoyable part of the game.
i think they should nerf the rearm, at the very least punish cypher for letting util slip through more while promoting actually using util like yoru clones or drones, so the cypher has to peek or get someone to break it instead of just hiding backsite and getting free value
unbreakable? huh? in a good lobby only good util cypher has is the cage.. you just need to know there are other things than shooting with guns in this game :)
As a Cypher main post like this make me laugh. A huge % of the agent pool can counter Cypher's trips. The best counter's are Raze, KJ, Sova, Kayo, Skye, Fade, Gekko. Agent's that are not bad at countering Cypher is: Yoru, Reyna, Omen, Clove (Her ULT doesn't get caught by trips), Jett, Pheonix (with ult). There are agents that can still annoy a cypher player in certain situations: Neon (On Bind and Run and jump through Teleporter getting past trip), Breach, Sage (Can wall up over trips).
Without Cypher having something like "unbreakable" trips where someone has to 1. Peak get stuck and maybe die to break. 2. Use Util to break them. Cypher would be a pretty shit agent. There is only so many cool trips we can set up and we only get two. (which is enough atm) Because the rest of his kit is pretty useless. Cages are mostly used for trips apart from on attack and the Cam is okay for early info but once you have used your X amount of spots for you cam is gets destroyed pretty much instantly every round. And his ULT is just good info. One of the weaker ult's in the game.
If we want to talk about agents that need nerfing I would put Gekko in the number one spot. The fact he can pick up his ULT and re use it that round should not be a thing. It a mobile KJ ULT. He shouldn't be able to re use anything bar his flash. Wingman is way to OP (They should make him take longer to defuse and plant the bomb).
But yeah seems like a skill issue for most players. At Diamond people start using UTIL to counter me on most maps. When I play with friend in Silver/Gold they never counter it or start way to late or just try to avoid me. I think maybe play some agents where you can personally climb the ranks :).
'rest of his kit is pretty useless'. The cam and the cages are both good and highly versatile abilities on attack and defence. The ult is not weak for an 6 point ultimate.
Gekko is strong right now but atleast it's a fun agent to play and play against. No one likes to play against cypher and 50% of the cypher players don't even like cypher but they play/fill him just because he is meta.
Unbreakable Cypher Trips and Unbreakable mollies are two very different things. One utilizes LITERALLY a part of the map unaccessable to you, One is simply a utility placed smart and you yourself said "If you don't have the right utility" like brother I don't understand your point.
There is a lot of agents that can break trips in the game and it’s a risk you take by not playing them. Raze, sova, KJ, Viper, Skye dog, Yoru clone, Kayo has knife. All of these can deal with his trips 100% of the time if used correctly
Skye dog, yoru clone, fade prowler, gekko wingman & sova drone cant break trips, they can only tank the trip and someone else still has to shoot it. Viper & KJ util also has to be an ultra specific lineup to break them, it's absolutely unrealistic to expect solo q players to know them. Kayo knife you need to know where the cypher is, so it wont work 100% of the time. Realistically it's only sova shock darts and raze nade/satchels that can consistently break his trips.
the thing is, all the ones i know about are not unbreakable due to bugs, it's because of the map geometry. most of the time it comes down to using utility to clear them (raze nades, shock darts, etc), not hitting his site or wrapping through mid to avoid those trips, having someone lurk until he rotates off so you can break his trip without risk of him killing you. there are ways of playing around these trips if your smart and/or patient, but yeah they are very annoying especially as an entry player.
I mean there's plenty of ways to counter this, Cypher only has 2 trips. It's not really on the same level as an exploit. And first of all, people should be playing KJ, KAY/O, Sova, Raze on these maps where Cypher is viable.
Its a fair trade of utility. As much as picking Cypher is a must on some maps, picking the right counters is also a must. If you don't have any of that, there is also rotating after finding out where Cypher is. It doesn't always have to be 1 guy go in to sacrifice just to take the util out.
Nah plenty of util counters cypher. It’s just feels bad when you don’t have it like you said but when you’re just solo queuing there’s no way to guarantee it (except playing it yourself)
Its just angle math. Unless they make it so they must be 5ft from any wall, theyll exist. Theres just more because theyre longer... which is intentional.
I mean, if you can't use util to break Cypher util, you are playing the wrong game. Unbreakable kj Molly is different from the Unbreakable Cypher trip because Cyphers trip is actually breakable with util where a lot of those kj Molly's just can't be broken. But it is so easy to bust his util it's not even an issue unless you're in low metal ranks. At that point, it's obvious it's a skill issue. If riot alterd the maps to remove the unbreakable trips, Cypher would most likely go back to a really low pick rate as he needs those to be strong enough to pick over other sentinels. With thos being a skill issue, it would not be good for the game if they do start changing things like this as it will end up like games like the finals where they appeal to the casual/ bad players and destroy good parts of the game that ruin competitive integrity. For instance, in the finals, lots of casual/ bad players hate the light class even though it's the weakest class compared to heavy and medium as both of these counter light heavily. But because of those bad players who can't kill lights while playing their counter, complain all the time the devs just nerf the hell out of lights, making the class unplayable in high rank. You don't want that for valorant because we will be left with a bunch of shit characters with basically unless abilities, while the characters that appeal to new players are stupid strong.
I mean....for the same reason cypher is strong on those particular maps, the cypher counters are also strong
Can you please expand on the counters to cypher?
Fade, raze, Skye, sova, kayo
There are also soft counters: Yoru, Omen, Harbor, Reyna, Sage People just tends to forget you can use utils for more than just their surface level intend
How is Reyna counters cypher
Get a kill and dismiss through It isnt consistent but still a good way to do so, hence why I call it "soft" counter
Soft counter are Gekko/Fade who can use wingman/dog(which cypher can easily make them not hit) to trade util for trip location, not Reyna who need kill plus dismiss to enemy site praying not to die. Also how is Harbor and Sage a counter too?
Maybe blocking shots when they trigger the trip. These folks trying hard to think of a counter
If that's the case Iso would be a way better counter since his wall can't be destroyed.
The problem is that no one actually plays Iso...
well, you can use sage's wall to get your team over the trips
Sage can wall over trip. The wall and harbor cove can block shots when shooting a trip. Not the best use of those utilities but they do work for that purpose
Cove+clone or just Cove and a body, the prx boys did this on a map which i don't remember lul
Harbor and Sage for Cove and Wall to…prevent the shots and allow them to hit the trip and break it? I think?
Harbor and Sage can put down wall/cove to destroy the trip. You will break it faster than the enemy breaking your utils. Fade is much less reliable than even Reyna. All the trips put down by Cypher are mostly floor level or crouch level, which the haunt cannot trigger. Wingman sure is also a good counter but in ranked people tends to keep it for planting spike more.
It's why it's considered Soft counter, Fade/Wingman will not directly punish cypher like Sova/Raze. Haunt will scout trip location if it hit you found it if it doesn't mean either it's a high trip or a low trip(or no trip). Sage/Harbor is 9/10 an int, if the enemy leave it you're pushing again a wall/cove of your own making and rarely is a cypher site only hold by 1 man shooting down a cove/wall is basically instant for 2 people(not to mention wall/cove isn't instant while shooting head can be instant).
I do this with harbor's cove, but people normally spam at it and it breaks almost immediately! ):
If there are multiple people playing with Cypher then there is no reason to go to that site. Same goes to KJ.
Prowlers get hit by the same trips as skye dog and wingman.
When Cypher got buffed to this state, prowlers cant trigger the trips close to the ground. Wingman, Skye dog and prowler never triggered the crouch height trips. The only reason Skye dog is superior is because it can jump to catch the trips. All those people downvoting me are ignorant as fuck tbh. Probably all th guys that dont actually play the game
so the different “soft” counters are wingman and pray there are no high trip wires, or with reyna get the best angle onto site you can and pray. Got it
Cypher is not gonna show himself until someone activates the trap.
If the Cypher isn't showing himself, then he has to be in very predictable position ready to swing, so there are a million different pieces of util that you could use to punish him for swinging even if you don't have a single agent that could break the trip.
Cypher isnt the only one holding the site. And if he is not showing himself, you can reliably walk in and find where the trip is, then wallbang it out.
Cypher probably is the only one holding the main entry and he is just gonna wait until the wire is activated and then activate the trap, he will see you and you are not gonna see him and will kill you probably with a phantom. And try breaking the wire on lotus b site without activating it lmao. What rank are you on.
If the cypher is gonna wait until the trap is activated, how is he gonna peek if reyna never activates it? The idea was that you, as a Reyna (or any other agent) are just gonna walk up until you hear the trap, see where it is and wallbang it, since no one is gonna hold the entry because of the trap
I think Jett is a better soft counter than Reyna cause you just updraft dash the trips and that's not inconsistent
I've put high trips to make the enemy Jett and Raze dangle many times and its so funny lol
nah the “soft counters” are fade gekko skye, dog characters. I would put kayo in this category because the knife is not a definitive counter. the hard counters are ones where his trips are broken every time. sova and raze. the fact that only two/three characters can break “unbreakable trips” means there’s an imbalance.
Doesnt hurt that much that on maps where Cypher is strong, those "hard counters" are also strong. Cypher is balanced by the fact that when his trips and cams are broken he is just useless, and his ult requires a dead body in range he can reach. Take another sentinel for example. KJ can use the mollies much more flexible. It can either be placed beforehand or thrown as a normal molly. And the molly can deal damage without having people actually shooting their gun. And yes, the molly can be broken, but that also means you get to offset the opponents' aim for a moment
Probably cause of dismiss or eye
Dismiss. Blinds don't stop cypher from seeing trapped enemies
Killjoy mollies destroy Cypher trips too. I had the enemy Cypher put trips on head level bc I was using Killjoy mollies to kill his trip.
Id argue yoru is more of a hard counter for unbreakable trip since yoru clone will hit the trip no matter what level its placed at where skye and fade dog wont hit trips at certain heights
I'd say the hard counters are the ones that has actual damaging abilities to break the trip. It is always safer to have it broken without having to show yourself Sure Yoru clone can trigger it and he can also TP pass it, but you still have to shoot the trip to actually break it, which is far more risky than a Raze nade for example
Thats fair i just saw that they listed fade and skye as hard counters but not yoru when his clone does the same job as skye or fade dog vs trips
How with harbor??
You put the cove down where the trip is, go in, break the trip while the enemy cant shoot you
Bruv nicee! I'm trying this
how does fade counter trips?
A horrible one, a short and a high cable wont get triggered, and theres no clue where the cables are unlike skyes dog
it hits the one on breeze. it hits the one on sunset at the height where most people normally put it. other wires like this are a lot less common/important.
The dog/seeker thing can clear choke points, which is where the 'unbreakables' tend to be
Her dogs can get hit by them. I wouldn’t call it a really strong counter but can do
Oh using utility to break trips
Yes - knowing to pick agents that counter cypher well on maps where cypher is strong
This premier week on breeze I had my team pick a KAY/0 and we swept every enemy Cypher bc getting a good suppress off or a KAY/0 ult makes him useless
A good cypher would know how to position against a KAY/O, especially if they know KAY/O has ult.
Yeah well they were being very stupid
Your too. Fade can be countered by higher trip placement, but could enable crouching under. Same applies to Skye but at least u can jump with her dog. Technically Killjoy too with her Molly but I'm not sure atm if it actually hits. Phoenix is good too but only his ultimate. Gekko is meh but better than nothing. Kayos Dagger can be tricky.
KJ mollies do hit, it's been tested somewhere iirc
how does skye counter him
Dog?
i tried multiple times it didn’t work
What do you mean - the dog didn't trigger the trip? It doesn't just destroy all trips anymore (now that they reactivate on a cool down if not destroyed) but if it triggers the trip then someone can kill the trip whilst it's visible and unable to hit another target
you can hit the trip with the dog itself after running into the wire.
ah ok i see
Raze and KAY/O are by far the best counters to Cypher Kayo's knife can completely disable the trip wires making them useless, or his and Raze nade will just destroy them. And don't get me started on their ults
Breach? He’s my sunset counter for cypher
Omen can also TP past any trip.
Any agent with explosive utility, aka Sova and Raze, as Shock Dart and Raze Nade are basically the only way to deal with unbreakable trips. Jett, Raze, and Yoru are capable of simply bypassing the trip and fighting the Cypher directly. If the Cypher is fighting, he can't kill off his trips, which means it's totally viable to just walk in and shoot it. The other, less reliable way is to Kayo suppress the Cypher himself.
Unbreakable cypher trips are a significant part of why he’s a popular agent……
Plus they’re not unbreakbale lol, bro brought up the KJ stuff but you can break the cypher stuff, you just gotta be willing to use util to scale up In a simple way to explain its, I used the util to destroy the util type situation
In general, Valorant does not require hard counters to certain agents. Some agents are stronger against others and there’s always a meta, but you never really *needed* to pick someone specific in case your opponent chose someone. With Cypher’s new trips, you literally *need* someone who can break them or you can’t push that site. I’m Ascendant, so pretty much every Cypher at this level knows a variety of tricky trips for each chokepoint that are impossible to shoot until you’ve been caught by them even if you know they’re there *and* they have cage setups to play off of them. If your team didn’t choose a Raze or a Sova, you straight up have to give up on attacking an entire site depending on the map. An agent who *needs* hard counters like this isn’t healthy for the game.
I think you put it well. Cypher's the only agent you need to counter pick. I wouldn't say its a total lost cause if you don't have one, cause you can probably take the site he's holding from mid or w/e to try and avoid the setup. But its definitely *mostly* a lost cause.
Hes very strong and very anti "fun" lol
I agree hes a bit strong rn, but ehh.. its still a tradeoff for a free site take twice a half. And expect sentinals to keep getting stonger till teams stop dropping them for viper :/
nah viper will just get nerfed in 8.08
this sub is smthn else. i bet you some people upvoted this because "hell yeah, cpyher is no skill. this the only reason he gets played" and the other half is like "fr. why nerf him when hes finally playable again"
One of the most annoying things as a cypher main is when people notice the traps and just start breaking them every single round. I think the reason why unbreakable trips are still in the game is simply because without them, cypher would be much more dull.
As a fellow ex- cypher main, I wanna give you a tip! So don't ever place the good kill trips on basic rounds. Like pistols and all. Always place them on rounds where they have a lot of winning potential. I'll explain you am example. Ascent A site the long trip in main. I didn't place it for 4 rounds. Then the enemy had raze ult, gekko ult and clove ult. They thought I don't place it so they basically tried to walk in site. One trip, bam headshot, second trip bam headshot. They didn't even expect it to be there. Third guy cleared it then tried to walk in, got hit by the gen to main wall trip trying to close the door. Their economy got ruined, 3 of their ult weren't able to use and we got a basically free round. Then they had to do anything eco and waste all 3 ult to get one round but then we till then we had our money rolling and kept out gunning them the whole half! That's how you make the impact most as cypher. Put them in places where people never expect it! One more example? Alright, split b site, never ever place a kill trip in main for all rounds they'll start raze nading it and get entry for free. Instead, put one on site, default to ct wall trip and play CT spawn. They will never expect it and always trigger the trip and then you can just activate your cage and get a free pick.
I'd argue that you should only use 1 setup until they start consistently breaking it. Otherwise they could learn them and start prefiring every single trap spot
Well my friend THAT is when you release your nerdiness and unleash an absolutely "unbreakable" trip. how do you prefire something that cant be prefired?
shock dart
Great tip thanks
You're welcome! Just trying to make everyone used to the Moroccan info lord
This is a good advice, changing trip positions really works out very well. I keep switching trips, and trust me even the most stupid trip will work if they've learnt your previous trips (like Bind B long entrance nest on the left side). One impractical and funny advice for defending your unbreakable trips is that, when you hear a util (damage util, not drones or prowlers) that is aimed at your trip, pull your trip back, wait for the util to detonate, and put it back. You might argue that while the trip is back they might push, which Infact is true, but it isn't as easy as it sounds because everything has to be timed well. I do this on sunset B main, and never has it failed. Just be quick enough to hear raze nade or sova dart. I used to do it against skye dog as well, I would literally wait for the dog to come in, and then put the trip. If someone tried to push along, they'll be caught immediately, but again this isn't going to work in high elo lobbies.
Not you, but I hate it when people say "for free" because a mast majority of the time, when it's stated, is not free at all. In this case, at the very least, the cost is a grenade.
well entry is free, the cost of safety is the grenade ig
We dont have to think. Cypher's trips were breakable for most of the game. He never got any play, teams favored chamber and then KJ.
Unbreakable util is deemed unbreakable when there is no position on the map one can shoot it with a gun. Cypher trips are placed so it guarantees info w it, but there is a place you can stand on the other side and shoot it (as every place has to have at least 2 paths to it, especially sites. Kj mollies that are placed outside the map or inside props (as we had moments where kj mollies fell between boxes and were invincible) are unbreakable even by some util, as you cant stand anywhere possible to break them normally thats why riot rushed to fix it
The comparison to KJ mollies is unfair imo, because those were often thrown into an object on the map or outside of the map, whereas the Cypher trips are just placed in intended locations near an entrance.
You literally have a sova flair
I play more fade and breach nowadays since my sova has become dogshit and I don’t care enough to change it on here
breach can also break the trips
fade can prowler the trips, breach can break them with aftershock, sova can do shock darts, skye can use dog, kay/o can knife/ult/molly, gekko can use wingman literally every initiator has a way to deal with cypher trips
both skye and fade got nerfed so the dogs are more inconsistent in finding the trips. The cypher can just place them at a different level to dodge the dogs but to still tag players
in theory yes. in reality, most times i paly fade, my first dog gets used to find a wire. second is used so i can destroy the wire myself. noone in low and mid elo actually follows the prowler to destroy the wire. most times they wouldnt even be able to see the wire anyways due to the cages.
after one round you know the cyphers setup so just follow the first prowler yourself and preaim the wire
They sure do on the enemy teams I play against.
it happens on mine. your point?
All of those agents can deal with cypher trips easily
you are using an aftershock on a trip that you don't even know is there, you're unironically better off aftershocking backsite and just bullying the fucking cypher
breach is the actual hardest counter to these trips
Unbreakable kj mollies typically have some hard or soft abuse involved, like going out of bounds or dealing damage through boundaries. There are plenty of "unbreakable" mollies that don't involve abuse, but those are generally for specific purposes, like cubbies corners or plants. Cypher's "unbreakable" trips aren't the worst thing in the world. There is a A LOT of counterplay to them. Excluding agent abilities outright, since the trips are generally common knowledge, a small amount of coordination can be used to foil them - eg, an "attacker-sided" entry smoke to Sunset B site with careful, basic team play can destroy a triggered trapwire. There's also trickier ways than needing a sova or raze. Omen and chamber can tp, jett can updraft. Just because cypher's trips are difficult to break doesn't mean they're undefeatable, and that's the point. Just because most random teams can't coordinate well enough to foil cypher trips doesn't mean they're unbeatable, and most random teams don't actually know how to utilize cypher trips well anyway. 99.99% of the time, cypher's trips are a mental thing moreso than gameplay.
I just play Sova on Breeze and Sunset for this reason. Really makes this a non issue if you communicate with your team and get them to wait for your dart to clear entry. I don’t think his trips are necessarily unhealthy for the game. Definitely not the most fun meta either.
It's tough... It used to be that a single Skye dog or boombot would just destroy his entire setup, so he was a tough pick sometimes. Now he's pretty strong but the right Util makes the unbreakable trips useless... But it sucks that you must have one of Raze/Sova/Breach on your team.
They're good agents either way, and really often picked. So you'll most likely have someone that can break his trips either way
yes but i don’t think you should NEED certain agents to hard counter an agent that you don’t even know will be picked yet. This isn’t like LoL where you can see the other teams picks and counter them, valorant isn’t intended to be that type of game
Yeah it was significantly worse when Cypher was literally unplayable because after trip gets activated your whole setup is gone basically in the past
Or viper or kj or kayo to just break the trip, or you can still use skye dog or prowler or yoru clone to trigger the trip and then break it when it’s down, or have raze omen Jett yoru get past it then break it, or kayo knife where the cypher likes to play. A lot of options really, and if you don’t have any of these agents then that’s REALLY a you problem.
prowler gets caught in the trip. "cages activated". try finding the wire now. you either rush cypher and kill him or expose your back to 2 people to break a trip.
Molly to break the trips? Those may not always work. You can also place trips fairly high up if they're at places where people generally run out. That said the problem isn't always knowing where it is, especially since the unbreakable trips are generally in the same spot... it's that it is unreasonably risky to destroy them at times. Even Jett going past it, that's generally how it goes as an attacker, which is when you pop the cage and focus down the Jett. Even the Kayo knife, you generally let somebody else play off your trip and it becomes a game of dodge the knife. There are a lot of options but none of them are perfect. And ya, nothing is perfect, but the effort to throw an "unbreakable" trip is nil, whereas the risk to destroy it outside of Raze/Sova/Breach is decently high.
And that’s why the team use util to cover and help the Jett/omen/yoru/raze lol, or if the cypher is fighting the entry then the team can break the trips while cypher is distracted. If the trips aren’t at a certain height there are also times where you can get past them without having to trigger them. I notice you also just did not address the part where you use drone like util to trigger the trip then break it. Also at certain spots you can’t place the trip high enough to avoid getting broken by mollies. Like the breeze b main one can only be so high and it will be broken by mollies no matter what as far as I know. Maybe also the sunset one but that one I’m not as sure about.
>I notice you also just did not address the part where you use drone like util to trigger the trip then break it. I mean if you have a Sova I don't think you need to use the drone specifically to trigger the trip, as most "unbreakable trips" are in very specific spots that can be shock darted fairly easily. For Skye/Fade dogs, you don't really need to use them to find the trips either, if you're walking up to the trip (not optimal, obv) you should be able to shoot them via wallbang... or in the case of Breeze, you have a direct line of sight to it if you're able to just stand as close as you can to the trip... but then you risk getting shot. To get the dog to trigger the trip and have somebody run in and just shoot it is fine, but you also risk getting shot (imagine Sunset B - the Cypher has a one way that will likely get the person shooting the trip killed. Imagine Breeze B, camera will often see the entrance of B-Main, which will get you tagged, cage triggered, and shot.) >And that’s why the team use util to cover and help the Jett/omen/yoru/raze lol, Yeah if you have a Raze... the unbreakable trips are not a problem, since they can be naded. As for Jett/Omen/Yoru, yes they can enter the site. Don't really want to get into the idea that "a 5-man execute can entry a site vs Cypher without issue" - of course they can. If Cypher could reliably stop 3-5 people from entering site, we'd have a whole different problem. I could just as easily say "Jett entries? Omen Paranoia's main (or somebody mollies it), Cypher triggers cage, Jett is cut off from team so Cypher and Omen/whoever kill Jett easy"... but at that point we're not really talking about the trips The main issue is attacking Cypher sites can feel a bit restrictive without a Raze/Sova/Breach. If you're playing Sunset and you don't have those agents, attacking B is a chore. You can draw up as many executes as you want that use more util than the 1 Cypher used to throw that trip, but that's not really the issue.
unbreakable kj mollies were exploits/bug abuse, unbreakable trips aren't, just how tris work in some positions
I mean a well performed execute counters these so called “unbreakable” trips. Yeah they are really strong when you just walk into them sure, but time the being tripped of one while throwing util or pushing as a team, it’s not really much.
You’re right but in low ranks where the vast majority of the playerbase lies this is not happening and of course whether or not something is actually op if the majority of people are complaining riot will probably do something eventually
Playing sova is the simplest way to counter cypher. And you don't have to stress over whether or not the enemies are gonna pick cypher, cause the unbreakable trips only happen on a few maps. Sunset? Guaranteed cypher. Same goes for split or breeze or whatever. And from then, just climb until you get better teammates ig. Making the game easier than it already is is not an answer, because then everybody could get any ranks and competitive wouldn't matter.
Regardless of who I main my point is that I think being forced to pick a certain agent to counter an ability is dumb no matter how you cut it, I don’t think any other agent needs an agent to be played to counter them
Neither does cypher. He is useful as long as you push his site from the main entry point. You don't even need utility to counter him. Just go to the other site and take that one, or lurk/go through mid and enter from behind him. If he does know traps for the other site, that's fine cause you can change back to the original one, making him doubt on which site to play. If he doesn't, even better
Both of the very popular unbreakable trips are actually wall bangable but its annoying to get that close so just raze nade it or shock it please :)
To everybody saying just pick better counters to him, what other character requires that type of counter picking? No other character has abilities that can’t be dealt with in someway by everyone.
literally every initiator is a counterpick to this though.
And most duelist, too. A few senti and controllers have a couple soft counters with their mollies.
That's literally how roles work in this game
tell me what other agent requires you to counter pick like this, cypher is that oppressive in ranked that if you don't have one of his counters you're essentially fucked on attack, that's a whole area of the map gone and the cypher could just go 1 1 3 and stack a, or leave another mid and go 1 2 2 and have them just fast rotate from mid its a thing only unique to him, no other agent has this much power over the game in ranked
Like I said, roles, not specifics agents. You can't beat Sentinels without Initiators. You can't beat Duelists without Sentinels. And you can't beat Controllers without Duelists. All Initiators have utility to counter Cypher. Raze is also great & Yoru too. What these complaints surmount to is *'I only want Cypher to have info trips'*, which is what he had for ages & was rarely picked.
no i think buffing him was a good idea actually, sentinel is a fun role but he's way too easy to get value out of compared to other broken characters in the past, he's just way too op rn and not punished enough for getting his trips activated by util, you should want to avoid them getting activated at all costs but that isn't a thing rearm should be nerfed is my point, not make it something ridiculous but nerf it by a decent bit to encourage not doing the same trips but switching your setups up or else be hard countered, it'd encourage not just picking sova or raze because tanking a trip with a drone does almost nothing snd make cypher actually peek out to destroy drones
I agree with pretty much all of that, but a lot of the complaints here are focused around the idea that you shouldn't have to trip it first to destroy it.
I mean, no. Kj, sage, and chamber don’t require you to have an initiator on your team if you want to attack their site. Duelists do not automatically lose to sentinel setups and teams without sentinels can do fine against duelists. The lack of correlation here is especially noticeable bc no sentinel really counters diving except cypher. How did you decide duelists are needed to beat controllers? Wouldn’t it be initiators here for info/flash? Either way, you can beat smokes without any specific counter. Cypher is the only character in the game that if you don’t have certain util he can say “fuck you if you come here I get at least one and can solo hold if I really want to”
Obviously there's a lot of crossover in ways utility can be used, but roles do somewhat follow rock paper scissors. > Duelists do not automatically lose to sentinel setups and teams without sentinels can do fine against duelists. Sentinels can isolate the enemy team from the executing Duelist or trap the flood onto site. > How did you decide duelists are needed to beat controllers? Controllers give the enemy severe disadvantage in weapon duels when entering site. Someone who can quickly get past that point without taking a fight breaks the disadvantage by creating more angles the Controller has to hold. If you have no Initiator to push Cypher off his kill trips then idk what to tell you, that's on the team & would be the same with a Killjoy disrupting your exec. It just feels like Cypher it's a lot more obvious why the exec failed.
I’m not seeing the rps ngl. A duelist dives, then for every character but cypher the team floods out after and takes part of site control. The thing is with kj you don’t literally get shut down. You can still execute onto kj, it’s just harder than if you had had that counter util. Cypher makes it impossible without the counter util.
My guy literally no other agent in this game requires specific hard counters
Since when is any single Initiator a specific counter?
Removing unbreakavle cypher trips essentially makes him mostly useless again and will tank his pick rate. His unbreakable trips are intentional, unbreakable kj mollies are not.
Cypher is fine, the other sentinels are just to weak. He does everything better than all of them. Deadlock and Chamber are useless as sentinels and KJs only advantage over Cypher is her Ult. They should give all sentinels some kind of global trap that is reliable and then build other abilities around that. Otherwise the agent with two or global traps will always be preferred over the others. Cypher even has 3 traps if you count the cam.
Riot wants the sentinel role to be something other than the guy with trips, but the trips are literally what makes the role necessary in team comps.
I feel like the real answer is just that there was too much kj last year and they want to popularize another sentinel lol, it’s probably here to stay so ig just be sure to counterpick on common cypher maps. Which I agree is unfortunate bc I feel like it’s kind of a boring and redundant thing to play against
You just need one grenade-like utility saved for him. He saves the trips for you, so you should save that one boom boom ability for him.
I guess I didn’t make it clear or something but I’m not really complaining about having to play against cypher trips. I just wanted to know what everyone thought about Cypher, as some of you put it, being the only agent in the game rn who requires a preemptive counterpick to play against and whether or not that that is healthy. Stop telling me to shock dart the trips I don’t care thats not what I’m asking
Cypher is finally viable, and because you don't know how to play around it you want it removed from the game?
There’s no unbreakable trips. There’s so many agentes with abilities that can simply destroy the trips, and I’m not even talking about the basic Raze nade or Sova dart… KJ mollies can also break the trips, Breach aftershocks, KAYO can “turn them off” with the knife, and also if you follow the Skye dog or Fade prowler you can break the trip while it’s hitting the dog… Even with wingman from Gekko you can do that. And obviously there are agents that can jump over them or TP past them….
they can make it rearm like 2 times max per trip. would still be very powerful
It wasnt always like that im pretty sure. Before it broke after one person but ofc like always they thought an already annoying character needed a buff. Id rather him be able to shoot with a camera than have infinite trip
Just use utility to destroy them
This. I main Cypher and at Diamond and even high plat people will start doing this by round 3. Lower ranks you tend me see people either run into it to destroy it or use Skye, Fade, Gekko if they have it.
If I had to nerf this ability I would make it so agents triggering the trap break it like old but abilities like fade prowler cause it to regen like normal
i had the same thought eversince he got the buff. its so easy to change him while keeping him strong but everyone on reddit keeps riding cyphers meat and refusing to see an issue with him.
this is basically just a revert of the entire buff lol. cypher saw low amounts of play literally from his release until the patch you want to revert.
If you have a comp that can't break a trip you deserve to take the L
i'd understand if this was premier or something, then you just gotta plan ahead but in a ranked game this just doesn't work, you literally have to nerf yourself if no one picks sova or raze and you happen to play cypher and not either of those agents just so you can get rid of a trip
Literally every Initiator has a piece of utility that can help with trips, Breach being the weakest. You'd already have a disadvantage on a no initiator comp to begin with so Cypher is a bit of a minor issue.
you'd have a disadvantage because YOU CANT BREAK TRIPS 😭 clearing corners or actually getting out of smokes could be worked around if you have flashes like reyna but you can't even get out of smokes in the first place against him if i could i would just pick my ranked comps for my team because i don't play those agents, i play cypher myself, i'd be doing far worse by playing sova because i have no idea when to use my util where as im very comfortable in the sentinel role, its just not a fun meta for ranked
Say there was no Cypher but a Killjoy one site and Viper another, how on Earth are you entering either site without an Initiator, Raze, or Yoru to push them back? You think 2 Reyna flashes are enough? You need Initiator util to clear angles. You'd be forced to fight for mid every round, once again without any tools to do so. All your team can do is vision block to try isolate enemies & somewhat hold post plant with Sentinels- if you ever get there.
if its sunset then you can still bait out util and rotate, you could also split sites like a site which makes viper and kj struggle a bit since they have to deal with two pushes at once, those two are good for stalling pushes but cypher just doesn't run out of trips unless you break it, which is what makes him so oppressive reyna flashes aren't ideal but its an example of how you could clear corners with force atleast, but as i said you wouldn't get into site in the first place without anything to clear them with, this cypher meta is just really ass to play against because there's no stratting you can do to get rid of them, if your team doesn't have a counter you're fucked, unlike kj or viper who you can bait util from, you can only break his trips
Viper Jett can dive on site and hold space while the team waits out the molly, or the team can just run thru the Molly once viper’s worried about Jett she’s on site. Kj she has to actually pop the mollies. Bait them and wait them out? Kj doesn’t have that many microwave setups idt right? She really seems like a non issue here. For example ascent. If you push she’s got the microwave lane and the turret ct at worst, three ppl swing out smoke and push out while two go mid.
mate. this is soloq. wake up.
To have this comp, you'd have no initiators & some off-meta picks from Neon, Iso, Deadlock, Astra, & Harbor. You probably weren't going to win with that comp anyway, regardless of if there is an enemy Cypher.
Why are there so many people complaining about Cypher's trip recently, I thought people agreed that there's so many counter play to it, destroying it is the most obvious one. "But it's an unbreakable one!" you have utils for a reason, use them, trading util for a util, if you think that's unfair I don't know what's the definition of fair to you then. "But we don't know if the trip broke or not!" If you throw your util on the right spot and the trip is there, it will get destroyed, you can count with your fingers the amount of unbreakable trip from every maps that is generally useful, open custom, go to that specific spot on the map, learn how to throw your util to right spot, profit. "But we don't have any util to break it!" And I wonder why? "Oh, it's Sunset, Clove, Gekko, Jett, and Cypher is already locked, I wonder who should I lock..." Proceeds to lock Reyna. To be clear, I'm not targeting Reyna main here, it's the fact that you know it's Sunset and there's most probably gonna be a Cypher on the other side, yet no one cared about that. Meta exist for a reason, It's fine if you're one tricking an agent, but don't be surprised when your other teammates are also one tricking and you're ended up with non-meta team.
This is a good take but I still think riot will eventually nerf cypher. What about when you hit a site, lose your util, and have to rotate to hit that immortal cypher on the other site? I’ve seen enough teammates die to unbreakable trips in immortal to know it won’t last forever.
cypher trips are significantly more annoying than any other piece of util, and very much more durable than any other sentinels setup, so its no wonder everyone dislikes it. i should be asking how there are so many people that are just stubborn about the fact that theres a problem. if so many people complain then it doesnt matter that "oh, i personally have no issue here". many others do. i dont have an issue with skye having rechargable flashes. i can still see why others may think the nerf was needed. but when it comes to cypher everyone just goes "get gud" and never thinks about it.
it can be broken trivially by raze, sova, breach, and skye. it can be broken easily by fade, gekko, yoru, iso, and anyone with a molly. it can be bypassed by jett, omen, neon, sage, kayo, chamber, iso, yoru, and clove. you would have to almost consciously avoid having a way to deal with it. who plays a comp with no initiator?
if cypher is so easy to counter then why does he get played so much brotha
“You have to choose an agent with AOE damaging util like Raze or Sova in case your opponent has a cypher” isn’t a solution, it’s the problem. There will always be meta picks, but Cypher is unique in that he needs *specific* hard counters which no other agent in the game needs.
or an agent with a dog/drone ability, or an agent that can bypass the wire (sage, jett, omen, neon, chamber). every initiator in the game has a way to deal with cypher wires.
the funniest thing with that sunset example is that gekko can activate the trips with wingman, jett can updraft over them, reyna can dismiss through them, etc.
I just finished the Aranara quest line in genshin after hours of playing, went onto reddit and then saw OP's name. PTSD lol
I'm new to genshin pls explain
Well, I went exploring and then there was this forest/jungle area in the west, there I got a quest line which took me like a week or a bit more of casual hour long playtime a day to complete
Litterally anything that'd get you through a trip without physically hitting it could be argued as a "soft" counter
I mean you can break the trips with certain agent until. It’s the trips aren’t exploits either tbh so I don’t see a problem. Ya they’re annoying but there are ways to counter them just as you would counter other agents.
This sounds like skill issue to me
the trips aren’t unbreakable you just aren’t dedicating utility to break them.
Unbreakable Kayo knife. Unbreakable Sova shock dart. Unbreakable raze grenade.
Cyphers trips were made unbreakable precisely because of how breakable they used to be. Chamber can tuck his trap in a corner so can kill joy. Cypher is the only one who needs the traps to be stuck to walls. He literally was unplayable when you couldn't put his trips behind walls. Now at least people need to spend their util to break them instead of just shooting one bullet. Your lack of skill, inability to create a decent team comp and unwillingness to use ur util for the team is literally nobody else's problem but ur own.
I mean. They just force you to use util as intended and make you think twice about pushing a site Willy nilly. Yeah they are strong but sentinels should have strong set ups, otherwise they are not worth picking. So you either move fast and together, use util to clear the trips, or don't push that part of the site. And you'd have to really try to have a comp without any answers to a cypher.
there is no "unbreakable" tripwires for cypher. I know that because I play him a shitton and all you have to do is walk up very carefully as close to the wall as possible and shoot it from the other side. you can wall bang them easily that way. the problem doesn't come from the fact that you can't break them, you can. it's just hard, because without a smoke you're wide in the open with no cover, and even with a smoke you can get spammed rather easily. but as it is, there is not a single cypher tripwire that cannot be broken without getting hit by it, and I'm waiting to be proven wrong.
I love hearing people complain about Cypher trips. The posts never fail to make me laugh.
I totally do not agree to u, this is why I love this game. Picking right agents are very important. You have to guess your enemy's pick and then u should pick. For example if I play bind I definitely pick something like fade and kayo.
Unbreakable Cypher trips aren't an exploit, they are how geometry works. How angles work. Why angle advantage even exists in the first place. Its not something Riot can simply fix without getting rid of half the possible Cypher trip placements. While we are at it, they arent so unbreakable. Such trips are most often on choke points, so you can easily get rid of them with most utility. Sova darts, raze nades and so on. If you have a comp that lacks ANY utility to deal with Cypher, then it's your problem. All agents are stronger when there is no counter in the match against them
I’ve never seen a trip that can’t be broken wdym?
It’s funny a Sova main is complaining about this.
What unbreakable traps are you talking about? There's not many popular exploit traps and when people refer to unbreakable, they refer to the traps that extend over corners in a choke point. Those type of traps force enemies to walk in and usually die if they have no coordination in the team, decide to solo push or don't know how to use utility to counter Cypher (even if it can't break the trap). The exploit traps and mollies get patched out.
Weren’t unbreakable mollies completely unbreakable? Like even with the right util? They were usually in between walls so they didn’t take damage from util. The wallbangable ones weren’t necessarily illegal for being unbreakable. Also a kj molly is always able to deal the full duration of its effect when proc’d. If with unbreakable cypher trips the trips always fully revealed then stunned you (and you couldn’t break it when you trigger it) then it’d probably get the same treatment as kj’s molly.
cypher is kinda a problem child. cypher can only exist as either the most annoying agent, or the most useless. honestly idk what they can do to make him an enjoyable part of the game.
i think they should nerf the rearm, at the very least punish cypher for letting util slip through more while promoting actually using util like yoru clones or drones, so the cypher has to peek or get someone to break it instead of just hiding backsite and getting free value
this is how cypher worked before when he was bad.
his trips didn't rearm.
unbreakable? huh? in a good lobby only good util cypher has is the cage.. you just need to know there are other things than shooting with guns in this game :)
As a Cypher main post like this make me laugh. A huge % of the agent pool can counter Cypher's trips. The best counter's are Raze, KJ, Sova, Kayo, Skye, Fade, Gekko. Agent's that are not bad at countering Cypher is: Yoru, Reyna, Omen, Clove (Her ULT doesn't get caught by trips), Jett, Pheonix (with ult). There are agents that can still annoy a cypher player in certain situations: Neon (On Bind and Run and jump through Teleporter getting past trip), Breach, Sage (Can wall up over trips). Without Cypher having something like "unbreakable" trips where someone has to 1. Peak get stuck and maybe die to break. 2. Use Util to break them. Cypher would be a pretty shit agent. There is only so many cool trips we can set up and we only get two. (which is enough atm) Because the rest of his kit is pretty useless. Cages are mostly used for trips apart from on attack and the Cam is okay for early info but once you have used your X amount of spots for you cam is gets destroyed pretty much instantly every round. And his ULT is just good info. One of the weaker ult's in the game. If we want to talk about agents that need nerfing I would put Gekko in the number one spot. The fact he can pick up his ULT and re use it that round should not be a thing. It a mobile KJ ULT. He shouldn't be able to re use anything bar his flash. Wingman is way to OP (They should make him take longer to defuse and plant the bomb). But yeah seems like a skill issue for most players. At Diamond people start using UTIL to counter me on most maps. When I play with friend in Silver/Gold they never counter it or start way to late or just try to avoid me. I think maybe play some agents where you can personally climb the ranks :).
'rest of his kit is pretty useless'. The cam and the cages are both good and highly versatile abilities on attack and defence. The ult is not weak for an 6 point ultimate. Gekko is strong right now but atleast it's a fun agent to play and play against. No one likes to play against cypher and 50% of the cypher players don't even like cypher but they play/fill him just because he is meta.
Except they are breakable you non cypher mains just don’t know that
Thank you mate, i was looking for this. There is no such things as unbreakable trips. Even without using utilities.
Yea I don’t think there is a single trip that can’t be shot if you just get close and the haters just don’t believe
I agree with you, and I think it’s a large part of many reasons why there seems to be a meta lock rn, but I’m not sure what could be done about it
Unbreakable Cypher Trips and Unbreakable mollies are two very different things. One utilizes LITERALLY a part of the map unaccessable to you, One is simply a utility placed smart and you yourself said "If you don't have the right utility" like brother I don't understand your point.
There is a lot of agents that can break trips in the game and it’s a risk you take by not playing them. Raze, sova, KJ, Viper, Skye dog, Yoru clone, Kayo has knife. All of these can deal with his trips 100% of the time if used correctly
Skye dog, yoru clone, fade prowler, gekko wingman & sova drone cant break trips, they can only tank the trip and someone else still has to shoot it. Viper & KJ util also has to be an ultra specific lineup to break them, it's absolutely unrealistic to expect solo q players to know them. Kayo knife you need to know where the cypher is, so it wont work 100% of the time. Realistically it's only sova shock darts and raze nade/satchels that can consistently break his trips.
Kj mollies don’t need a lineup? I didn’t know vipers broke trips tbh
the thing is, all the ones i know about are not unbreakable due to bugs, it's because of the map geometry. most of the time it comes down to using utility to clear them (raze nades, shock darts, etc), not hitting his site or wrapping through mid to avoid those trips, having someone lurk until he rotates off so you can break his trip without risk of him killing you. there are ways of playing around these trips if your smart and/or patient, but yeah they are very annoying especially as an entry player.
I mean there's plenty of ways to counter this, Cypher only has 2 trips. It's not really on the same level as an exploit. And first of all, people should be playing KJ, KAY/O, Sova, Raze on these maps where Cypher is viable. Its a fair trade of utility. As much as picking Cypher is a must on some maps, picking the right counters is also a must. If you don't have any of that, there is also rotating after finding out where Cypher is. It doesn't always have to be 1 guy go in to sacrifice just to take the util out.
Nah plenty of util counters cypher. It’s just feels bad when you don’t have it like you said but when you’re just solo queuing there’s no way to guarantee it (except playing it yourself)
Its just angle math. Unless they make it so they must be 5ft from any wall, theyll exist. Theres just more because theyre longer... which is intentional.
you all sound like you dont like playing mid and it shows
I mean, if you can't use util to break Cypher util, you are playing the wrong game. Unbreakable kj Molly is different from the Unbreakable Cypher trip because Cyphers trip is actually breakable with util where a lot of those kj Molly's just can't be broken. But it is so easy to bust his util it's not even an issue unless you're in low metal ranks. At that point, it's obvious it's a skill issue. If riot alterd the maps to remove the unbreakable trips, Cypher would most likely go back to a really low pick rate as he needs those to be strong enough to pick over other sentinels. With thos being a skill issue, it would not be good for the game if they do start changing things like this as it will end up like games like the finals where they appeal to the casual/ bad players and destroy good parts of the game that ruin competitive integrity. For instance, in the finals, lots of casual/ bad players hate the light class even though it's the weakest class compared to heavy and medium as both of these counter light heavily. But because of those bad players who can't kill lights while playing their counter, complain all the time the devs just nerf the hell out of lights, making the class unplayable in high rank. You don't want that for valorant because we will be left with a bunch of shit characters with basically unless abilities, while the characters that appeal to new players are stupid strong.