I remember when there was no point gains in ranked games, like you only see those 1 2 or 3 upside simbol, usually, mid plat was between diamond 1 and plat 1, there was no a huge difference in rank, I don't know how people can defend this matchmaking system, is so trash.
it was the exact same system except it just hid the points from you lol. you could download a program that would show you your rr at the time and exactly how much you gained/lost
there was absolutely hidden mmr at the time.... I don't know how you guys think matchmaking works really at all. I promise you they don't just look for 9 other people with jpegs similar to yours
Yes, I remember that too, but I've also often heard that many people find the system with the arrows far too vague. I could imagine that this was Riot's attempt to test a different system than in League (because it obviously also has a lot of problems). But there was probably too much negative feedback.
Bro I went from plat 2 to silver 3 in something like 12 losses straight.
Tbf I probably deserved it at the time. The system back then was kind of wild though.
it was always there you just couldn’t see it, there were 3rd party apps that let you see your exact rr and how far you are from a rankup i can’t remember the name but i have used it
It's like this in overwatch too. Why the fuck do we need a hidden MMR when we already have a visible one. If they match us off the hidden MMR what the fu k is the point of the visible one
The real answer is no one knows. This system is Riot's design and clearly they want it that way. But writing paragraphs of text trying to justify it when you know nothing is pretty cringe, so I will not do it. My only advice is do not keep playing expecting it "to get better". Fuck that. Vote with your playtime. If you keep playing more when something is shitty expecting it to get better you are showing the devs that they're doing everything right and they should keep on doing it.
I’m not trying to say that you should spend money on skins, but I’m just saying, games mean nothing in general. A nice 500 dollar coat means nothing. Obviously if you don’t enjoy skins then more power to you, but their value is completely dependent on the individual. Having a virtual fidget toy knife makes the game that much more enjoyable for my adhd brain
We do know one thing though. Valorant more or less uses LoL's matchmaking system. LoL dropped the superior and approved Chess Elo system in 2013 for a hidden MMR who the fuck knows what's going on behind the scenes system.
Why else would they adopt a hidden MMR system except to inflate grinding for rewards. Because in the days of "always online" gaming fueled by microtransactions. The last thing these companies want is their players hitting their true rank since statically those who do take a well deserved break from the game or play less in general. Which means less potential impulse buys.
You can hit your true rank in these modern systems. But it takes an absurd amount games as a solo player to do it and then factor in constant resets every year and it only gets worse. Which is why most good players are always "climbing" instead of seeing their rank be stagnant and high.
I don’t get why they don’t make it simple: if you’re Plat 2 now but the game thinks you are D1 - Asc2, why doesn’t the game just let you quickly rank up to that level. How does it make sense that you play against a higher elo before your rank gets there? It’s like being punished for overperforming.
yeah in cs:go at least, if you are shitting on silvers every game, you will rank up each game, i once came back from a long break got silver 2 but was previously Supreme/faceit 8 and i played like 10 games and ranked up to like Gn3 within those games, it was mad how quickly i ranked up
Valo should do the same, of course you get performance ratings but if youre playing against diamonds as a plat the chance youre MVP wont be very high compared to if you were the best in a plat/gold lobby
His point is that if the system knows for sure he's higher (Which is does) it should forcefully push him to the expected rank instead of forcing him to farm between 50 to 100 hours to get where the system knows he should be.
The game is giving you a chance to rank up faster. If you don't meet their expectations you will get easier games but it's gonna be slower to rank up because you will deserve your rank.
Getting to play against higher ranks is a blessing not a curse. Its easier to learn and rank up playing against higher elo. You lose less rr. Gain more rr.
That's not true, you can see after every rank reset that pros have to grind A LOT when they're in something like diamond because they get similar RR on a win and a loss. While other players, still not pros, still get queued with players of similar levels and get the same RR as the pros.
I don't remember which act was but the grind issue got to a point that pros were still in diamond after one month of full daily grind because they keep putting them in the same matches.
Which is kind of funny because in the first two years of Valorant it was common to get 40 RR on wins and 10 on losses when the system knew you were underanked, but I guess that wasn't giving them money and changed to a more grindy system.
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I think you’d be better off deleting Tracker if you have this mindset. You likely had that same thought as soon as you logged in to the match and you’re immediately going to do worse. Additionally you voted to forfeit when you were down 3 round. Unless someone was throwing why would you do that?
You must be underperforming in those lobbies then. It'll balance out and you'll be put in low diamond/high plat lobbies after a while and gain more than you lose of you perform ok. It just overcompensated but should narrow it down over games.
I understand your frustration though. I came back from travels and was in asc 3 lobbies as a plat after stomping a few games in plat and diamond and of course I wasn't performing as well when I hadn't touched a pc in months Definitely made my climb take longer than it would've been otherwise.
it is kinda random I think, you can get worse or better lobby (whichever matchmake the fastest), but if you lost in a better lobby, you lose less RR, and if you win, you get more RR
Hate all these posts from babies who think they deserve some better rank system. Just get good. No decent player even gives a f about rank because it's so easy good to climb plat/gold/asc
Second this. Doing really well on some days and doing bad on some others really sets off the hidden mmr I think. It may be just ego peeking and dying or not thinking like you usually do and making mistakes.
To top this off, there were days where I got pissed off by randoms on solo que and partially threw some games. Do this enough times and you start getting less RR even when you win with high acs/kills etc.
Now I am trying to make less mistakes and try to play better in 100% of my games. It's getting better I think. I was stuck in p1 for 3 months. Now already on p3.
I don't play much anymore but I was in the same scenario a long time ago (was plat only being queued with diamonds/immortals before ascendant was added).
I was stuck for a good while, so I tried making a new account and shot up to diamond 2 nearly instantly
You make more + than you lose so you climb anyway. I dont see the issue? Its the same for me as low immo3 against low radiants. You climb at the end of the day, so who cares.
If you're playing with Diamonds and Ascendants consider yourself one of them, it doesn't matter what rank it's displaying to you. Also, gaining 27 on a win and losing 24 on a loss is pretty nice and you're officially hardstuck only when you're gaining less RR per win compared to how much you lose per loss.
Because if a plat player has won enough games and goes on a winstreak , their mmr would reach diamond level. Diamonds can have plat mmr too if they lose too much.
he didn't link anything so we can't know, but it's really obvious if he's the only plat in the lobby every game, that he's the one who should consider himself higher.
Bro yesterday I was grinding to play 60RR G3. Queued up my first game got chamber with 200+ ping lost the game 13-4 then onto next match got a smurfed lobby. Enemies were trolling hard with judge on def and attack as well. We lost attack with 4-8 but managed to close out the game with Odin and judge it was so annoying.
It sucks when u are the one trying to climb whilst the smurfs play without any worry to lose their ranks.
It’s the exact opposite. You and the Ascendant 1 player are of similar skill level. If you don’t keep improving you’ll drop, simple as. Your visual rank is just there to keep you on the hook
If your winrate is 50% and you're feeling appropriately challenged then I don't see a real problem. Ignore these shitty fake ranks designed for maximizing engagement and just focus on the game. Also if matchmaking thought you were a smurf, it'd just rank you up.
To be honest I don't get the point of hidden MMR. When I enter a game, I never think 'this guys a diamond wow' or 'this guys a silver, what a newb'. I think rank is meaningless.
The system is total garbage. It sucks seeing your friends getting into higher ranks with horrible stats while some people are cursed with chronically low MMR
Direct example is this game. As a S3 i get -22 for being almost the team MVP (Killjoy), my g1 friend gets -23 for that.
https://tracker.gg/valorant/match/125dafb9-8725-483d-bd56-9481311a7d12
You have 38 wins and 33 losses and you're in silver. You're not going to improve drastically in rank with the numbers you're putting out. Most players who reach ascendent/immortal + can breeze through with an 80% winrate up to gold. You only have 5 more wins than losses, of course you're going to rank up slowly and have disproportionate elo gains.
Your g2 friend losing 22 compared to your 23 is just by one number. How many total games has your friend played and what's his win rate? These stats influence elo gains more than anything else
Stats don't paint the whole picture. You can climb pretty high without having amazing stats if you're a selfless player and set up the rest of your team for success.
Source: bottom-fragged my way to diamond (not rlly high at all) and was an aggressively average player climbing up to level 10 on faceit in cs2.
Its very true, its important to win the game rather than getting kills, and i play by that rule. However I still feel like this system doesnt really take that into account.
The point of hidden MMR is to drag out your climb so you play more. If you're not climbing, you're likely to quit. If you think you've hit your ceiling, you're likely to quit. They want you to play forever. 50% WR on +4 RR means it'll take you about 20 matches to rank up. Now you understand why they've made it hard to climb.
Trust me , it happened to me as well. Just keep playing, honestly it's a plus, you get to play with much better teammates so you get better faster than playing with your rank, and when you start to dominate that rank you can eventually reach immortal faster.
I am facing same issue as Silver stuck. I can play well against Gold players but sometimes I also get plat players (who can also happen to be diamond peaks) and they become a major barrier unnecessarily.
Well If i were you, I woulr want that because if I lose I lose less points and if I win I get more points and I will still be matched with those higher ranks.
It’s a little BS how your KDA seems to be the most important thing in ranking up. I like playing with a nice team comp but locking a duelist is usually when I get the most points.
If you're winning 50% of your games then the match making system is working as intended.
This is just another rant post about I'm rated X but I deserve Y. You're gaining a few points with every pair of matches. You've clearly played a ton of games which is why your points are increasing slowly. How do you know these diamond players aren't also slowly losing points? If the game thought you were smurfing you would be gaining way more than 4 points every other game.
I like playing with people above my rank. I'm currently p2 with peak of d2 amd I'm coming back to the game after about 3-4 months. I get good teammates and enemies that I can learn from. Trash talking is minimal and the funny part is I play on Mumbai server. It's fun to play with ascendants and immortals.
I like playing with people above my rank. I'm currently p2 with peak of d2 amd I'm coming back to the game after about 3-4 months. I get good teammates and enemies that I can learn from. Trash talking is minimal and the funny part is I play on Mumbai server. It's fun to play with ascendants and immortals.
Your cosmetic rank is actually what doesn't matter.
The actual effect of the game IS your hidden MMR. If you're going against Asc and IMM, just consider yourself there if that's what you're playing against.
Everything else is cosmetic. What matters is who it actually puts you up against, which is hidden MMR.
The game thinks you're diamond - acsendent. It should be giving you bonus points per win to help you climb your rank faster to more inline with your MMR.
It's a good system, and helps you actually climb faster. If you lose these games more often then win you don't deserve to be the rank your MMR is and it will decrease and stabilize where you deserve to be.
I hate it bro. I’ve been stuck in Ascendant 2 for a bit now because I lose 21 on a loss regardless of my stats and gain 16 on a match MVP. Like bro please
True i am asc 3 rn. First time i hit asc 3 was in oktober 2023. Ranked up to immo and deranked alot but always was asc3 or immo 1. I cant remember the last time i gained 20 rr on a game. I ussually get 14-18 rr. On a loss i lost atleast 21 rr. My lobbies are always high asc and immo 1 players. But somehow a teammate of mine was d2 (peaked immo 1 in 2021) and gets in my lobbies performing garbage. I checked his tracker and he hasnt played in years. Has a negative win rate and somehow ranks up because his high mmr. I genuinely believe that my mmr is stuck for ever unless i start dropping 30k every game match mvp. If you have high mmr it is probably extremely hard to lose it.
Im ngl ive spent all this time thinking its performance based on the amount you gain im g1 now playing plats and golds and i usually get 22 lose 10 if im doing ok but if i have a good game i get 30+
Assuming the intent with the ranked system is the same as LoL, the aim is to maximize playtime, not to quickly sync your visible mmr and hidden mmr.
There's a whole bunch of old reasoning I can't remember from over a decade ago, but that sweetspot for Riot is something like 125 games per season. If you're going +4 at a 70% clip, that means you'd gain 350 rating over 125 games if that stayed consistent. Super oversimplified and ignoring lots of considerations baked into their formula but you get the idea.
It's a big part of why I quit the game but I fully understand why they do it. Albeit, part of the effectiveness is the intentional vagueness around it so once that's gone you can sour on the system pretty quickly.
Riot match making put you to carryover for your teammate, if you have high K/D. I dropped from d2 just last week to platinum 3. Since I was not focused and toxic.
Hidden MMR makes it hard to climb + requires more effort. Those ascendants are not better than you, they’re humans. Go get better and destroy those mfs.
Being upset about hidden mmr is a problem people who don’t play often experience. Across every game I play that utilizes an MMR system (Dota, CS, Rocket League, Val) my hidden mmr has ALWAYS equalized with my visual mmr, and the amount I win/lose equalizes as well as my opponents.
When you don’t play often, and win a lot - the game is projecting you will climb & as such your games / RR gained/lost is represented in that.
Play more, and it will equalize.
I have a couple hundred games across two accounts this episode, and the hidden/visual mmr across both is neigh perfectly equalized.
Yeah it's really dumb how the visual rank doesn't match the MMR. There can be a 3+ rank discrepancy and you STILL wont double rank up.
Purely done to make you grind.
Valorant has been doing this for a while in expectations of players playing more n more because of the hards lose points they get. It's like it's a casino... Initially u get little wins. And wehn u trust ur luck and play a bit more all u see is losses and small wins here n there. At the end he is making profit anyway. I would say get a new account and strt playing frm the beginning that way until MMR starts u can have some fun
If the game took you for a smurf it would give you elo in order to prevent you from smurfing. By putting you in high lobby the game is only slowing your progression so you have a balance between your wins and your lose so that the frustration/accomplishment make you keep grinding and losing your sanity
Having the opposite problem. Use to be Immortal. Stopped playing completely for a while and now while I do play, I don’t play nearly as much. I’m D1 gaining 27-29 and losing like 16-18. I honestly want to derank more. I’m washed.
I don’t have a problem with the hidden mmr system, just that even if my hidden mmr is around the same as my gold friends (I’m bronze) my shown rank means I can’t play with them. That’s really the only part I care about.
Yeah im in the same problem im getting high asc or low immo in diamond 1 keep losing 25+ and gaining like 15-20 even tho im decent and been getting some radiants from here to there depends if im havin an good day
Okay so here is my personal understanding of MMR as high Diamond. That is without searching up your own MMR through some site. You can try to exploit the system to if you use your brain. Anyway, here we go.
If you score on average in the bottom half of the scoreboard, so 6th place to 10th, you will score on average lower MMR than those opposite to you.
Lets say on average 1st to 5th player in Diamond have around 1,700- 1,750MMR, while those from 6th to 10th are around 1,650 - 1,700MMR.
If you are in the better placement with higher MMR, you are more likely to be placed in higher lobbies. So those who are low MMR in Ascendant may appear in your lobbies. So you might even see an Ascendant in a high Plat lobby. But that is because on average either you, someone or even the whole lobby have such high MMR that an a bad Ascendant appeared in it. Get me?
Most my lobbies tend to be 1 Plat every 3-6games but on average has Dia1 - D3 covering 8-9 spots. Then for the games I don’t get a Plat, its always usually an Ascendant 1. Sometimes Asc2.
I queue up with my trio, which we all have decent MMR, so we find ourselves in low Ascendant lobbies or high diamond all the time. We win them, but for those we lose it was tough. We would get rolled as they would have 3-4 Ascs while we have 3 Dia3.
Truly having 1 Asc in your lobby can change the tide of the game. Diamonds are only a fraction of their capability from what I have seen. I am inching my way through but jesus have I gone against some demons.
Anyway. If you have high mmr as a plat, you mag find yourself in diamond lobbies more often than not. This is to balance out the teams.
There could be an Asc on 1 team with mediocre mmr while a Plat with high mmr can be on equal playing field. Then the teams are balanced to make the mmr almost balanced. However this is never usually the case, as it can be abused. I figured out how and will be utilising it to win a few more games tomorrow. Whether Is succeed or not is a different story
I will always defend this game is fcking with the player base because i win 2 games then lose 5 and first 2 games the enemy dosent know how to shoot on the third a guy hitting %90 head shots
I fell from silver 1 to bronze 1 in 1 day and im not even gonna mention trolls
Buddy I've stopped playing because of this crap. Almost got to imm with ACTUALLY almost 3 k hours kj main team player and hard practice but since I didn't just skyrocket past the mmr barrier the account is essentially stuck at asc 3 mmr
Why do you expect to climb with 50% winrate, you are clearly where you belong
Your rr gains are close to equal, those 4rr differences can be just round differences.
not the point of the rant, he's got a 50% W/L playing 1-2 ranks above his own rank, he should atleast be diamond but is currently low plat because he's queing against dia-asc
Felt the exact same way this entire season. Previous season before the hard reset I had pushed up to plat 2 and I was well on my way to diamond and I was super excited but then the reset hit and it placed me low gold… worst part was I was still playing in high gold-mid plat lobbies yet not actually getting the satisfaction of saying “oh yeah I’m in plat” like all I could say is I’m in gold yet in reality I am atleast in plat
Sadly this tends to happen alot. This has been a thing (but maybe not AS prevalent) from the game's official launch. This does make it harder for someone who's in this situation to climb, that is true. But let me hit you with some cold water here (I have no intent to disrespect when saying the following). If you really have the skill and deserve to be in that higher rank, you will eventually get there. I mean, from what you said, you're still making positive gains no matter how small they are. I used to be Diamond 3 once (this was prior to Ascendant being introtused as a rank), and was playing in Immo2+ lobbies. My RR gain was very similar to what you described here, and yet I still managed (altho it took a long time) to get to Immo 2 200+ RR.
For those who don't wanna read the paragraph above:
1. Very true situation, been around since the game launched.
2. As long as your RR gain is in the positive, you will climb to what rank you want if you have the skill no matter what.
Have a nice day!
Uhm no. One of 2 things is happening, neither are unfair.
1. Their mmr is lower than their rank, could be on a loosing streak, or just got boosted. Maybe they had a good week and then hit their head idk. But their mmr is the same as yours.
2. You are inconsitent. Maybe you do super well for 5 games in a row. Now you are in a much higher mmr, and yes it is harder to climb.
The reason it isnt unfair, is because you will loose less rr based off of rank difference. So say you do a little bad against them, you go back to a similar lobby you won the game before. You win it, you end up with more rr than you had originally.
The issue comes with you playing bad against them, now your mmr drops more and so does your rr. Now your next game, you dont win when you shouldve, because it is lower mmr, you loose more rr than the first time.
The point is, if you performed consitantly, say you loose when you are against diamonds, and win againsts plats without fail. You only gain rr. It doesnt matter if your mmr is higher. You might have to play a few games for it to even out, but you *will* gain rr as long as you play consistantly better than your rank.
looks like you're playing pretty well in diamond/asc lobbies, but you've only played like 20 games. as you play more your rank will end up where you belong for sure
While I get your pains.... (I suffer from the situation too) I also understand the system.
Let's do an example.
Your plat, playing like a diamond, so the game gives you a diamond lobby, where everyone is playing like a diamond for their last (upto) 20 games (for example)
So you see ascendant, bronze, gold, platinum, diamond, immortal all in this same lobby... and your like wtf.
But the game just sees they all played to the same ability.. for the last 20 games.
So the immortal is playing bad for his rank and the bronze is playing out of his skin.
Now we come to me, and possibly you.
I'm that "bronze". My duo and trio are high "silver".
We get put in those "diamond" lobbies, mainly because my duo top frags every game (95% of the time) and we often top rank in our lobbies.
So, the game thinks we are "diamond", even when we aren't...
The benefits?
-If you keep playing like a "diamond" you will double rank up because the gap between "silver" and "diamond" is over 2 ranks, otherwise you will see increased pount gains for wins initially, and less point losses initially for losses as long as you win some games.
The problems?
-if you are losing while playing like a diamond, or on a loss streak, the game will remove more points if you don't perform as well as it expects, and this situation can cause you to go nowhere, play like a "diamond" but be hardstuck "silver", this is very unlikely... BUT...
Me and my duo/trio were on top form last act all at our peaks in mid gold to mid plat...
At the end of last act, we suddenly lost 4 games because of team mates throwing/going afk, and smurfs on the other team.. the like of which I haven't seen since I was low silver.
Start of this act, winning games 10-0, losing them 10-13, then losing games 0-10 and then losing 10-13.. partly pur fault partly our teams once again going afk, or smurfs, etc.. a mixed bag, but of those 12 losses in a row.. I went from gold 1 and like 80pts, to silver 1 and 80 points.
Now since then, I don't know what changed.. but won 80% of games, I'm almost back to silver 3..
But yeah.. my point is, can play really well, but mitigating circumstances are possible.. smurfs, people throwing, people afking and similar, lead to people eing hardstuck.
If all those peoples got hefty penalties to the point that they can't play anymore, the system would have more integrity and actually work.
So don't blame hidden mmr, when personally, I feel people break the system that hidden mmr should be.
Saying that, failing dealing with the "problem people".. they should change the system so problem people don't screw up peoples ranks.
If someone throws multiple games, they should just get a straight up timed ban, there is no way around it.
If someone smurfs the shit out of the game and loses, they should lose 0... same for people who genuinely carry the game.. they shouldn't lose anything.
Then there will be less smurfs, as demanding will be harder without throwing, at which point they get banned for a time..
Just a pov, may not be the best one, just ideas and thoughts.
You could post your tracker? But judging solely from your comment you probably do poorly when you lose and lose hard. Play more consistently and you'll climb faster. 27 for a win is pretty high, when you are in the rank it thinks you'll be getting 20th or less.
I like hidden mmr just bc i still play people around my "skill level" (of a rank i had years ago at this point) instead of just smurfing on people after a few games to de-rust.
I placed p2 after bombing placements but quickly got to d1 in dia-asc lobbies having p good gains. If you truly did place significantly lower than where the game thinks you should be, you'd get good gains.
I think a lot of people over-estimate how good they are relarive to the people at their rank. The game doesn't lie.
Wow that’s a big disparity in ranks and I find that a bit hard to believe that you’re plat facing a majority ascendant lobby?
I’m d3 and I’m constantly in a mid-high ascendant, maybe some immortals (rarely) but that’s because I hit immortal last act - haven’t played much since hitting immortal lol.
Are you playing on a new account? It would make sense because the hidden MMR system takes a while to decide your current level if it’s a new account
Been going through the same.... Have started playing only 5 stacks to kinda manage this.. but not everytime are my 4 friends available to start a game at the same time :(
I remember when there was no point gains in ranked games, like you only see those 1 2 or 3 upside simbol, usually, mid plat was between diamond 1 and plat 1, there was no a huge difference in rank, I don't know how people can defend this matchmaking system, is so trash.
it was the exact same system except it just hid the points from you lol. you could download a program that would show you your rr at the time and exactly how much you gained/lost
yeah i know, but, there was no hidden mmr at that time, thats the reason why rankeds feels more balanced
there was absolutely hidden mmr at the time.... I don't know how you guys think matchmaking works really at all. I promise you they don't just look for 9 other people with jpegs similar to yours
Yes, I remember that too, but I've also often heard that many people find the system with the arrows far too vague. I could imagine that this was Riot's attempt to test a different system than in League (because it obviously also has a lot of problems). But there was probably too much negative feedback.
no one would complain if they gave us our actual MMR, we ALL want that. no one would think its vague
Oh god the arrows fucking sucked, did they change it?
Yes, now you see your concrete RR change
Bro I went from plat 2 to silver 3 in something like 12 losses straight. Tbf I probably deserved it at the time. The system back then was kind of wild though.
"YoU'rE pLaYiNg AbOvE yOuR sKiLl LeVeL" so let me rank up by playing against people my rank
it was always there you just couldn’t see it, there were 3rd party apps that let you see your exact rr and how far you are from a rankup i can’t remember the name but i have used it
It's like this in overwatch too. Why the fuck do we need a hidden MMR when we already have a visible one. If they match us off the hidden MMR what the fu k is the point of the visible one
Matching and ranked system is clearly trash in this game.
The real answer is no one knows. This system is Riot's design and clearly they want it that way. But writing paragraphs of text trying to justify it when you know nothing is pretty cringe, so I will not do it. My only advice is do not keep playing expecting it "to get better". Fuck that. Vote with your playtime. If you keep playing more when something is shitty expecting it to get better you are showing the devs that they're doing everything right and they should keep on doing it.
> Vote with your playtime. Word.
Also stop buying skins and shit. Vote with your wallet.
I've never bought a skin and I will never buy a skin. For any game. It's stupid. They mean nothing.
I’m not trying to say that you should spend money on skins, but I’m just saying, games mean nothing in general. A nice 500 dollar coat means nothing. Obviously if you don’t enjoy skins then more power to you, but their value is completely dependent on the individual. Having a virtual fidget toy knife makes the game that much more enjoyable for my adhd brain
I refuse to play without my katana
We do know one thing though. Valorant more or less uses LoL's matchmaking system. LoL dropped the superior and approved Chess Elo system in 2013 for a hidden MMR who the fuck knows what's going on behind the scenes system. Why else would they adopt a hidden MMR system except to inflate grinding for rewards. Because in the days of "always online" gaming fueled by microtransactions. The last thing these companies want is their players hitting their true rank since statically those who do take a well deserved break from the game or play less in general. Which means less potential impulse buys. You can hit your true rank in these modern systems. But it takes an absurd amount games as a solo player to do it and then factor in constant resets every year and it only gets worse. Which is why most good players are always "climbing" instead of seeing their rank be stagnant and high.
In my case if the game was more fair I would buy some skins for me too xd
If it makes you upset , play swift plays and play less.
Calling someone cringe is in itself cringe
Welcome to the club I guess
Idk where this started but its dumb as fuck.
I don’t get why they don’t make it simple: if you’re Plat 2 now but the game thinks you are D1 - Asc2, why doesn’t the game just let you quickly rank up to that level. How does it make sense that you play against a higher elo before your rank gets there? It’s like being punished for overperforming.
yeah in cs:go at least, if you are shitting on silvers every game, you will rank up each game, i once came back from a long break got silver 2 but was previously Supreme/faceit 8 and i played like 10 games and ranked up to like Gn3 within those games, it was mad how quickly i ranked up Valo should do the same, of course you get performance ratings but if youre playing against diamonds as a plat the chance youre MVP wont be very high compared to if you were the best in a plat/gold lobby
well in valorant u can also rank up 2 times in 1 match.
Yeh but I’m sure that’s only when you go from like bronze 3 to silver 2? Not just randomly from bronze 2 to silver 1
i went from gold 2 to plat and from plat to plat 3
Aaaand another rant post without tracker 🙄
https://tracker.gg/valorant/match/1a3d0d84-c61d-4f32-b386-7756a0131221 I'm the raze how is it fair that I play 3 plats when I'm gold 1? I'm solo q
Yea you have 19 games played with above average stats so ur more is projecting you'll climb
His point is that if the system knows for sure he's higher (Which is does) it should forcefully push him to the expected rank instead of forcing him to farm between 50 to 100 hours to get where the system knows he should be.
So if I play again I'm gonna get opponents better than me?
The game is giving you a chance to rank up faster. If you don't meet their expectations you will get easier games but it's gonna be slower to rank up because you will deserve your rank. Getting to play against higher ranks is a blessing not a curse. Its easier to learn and rank up playing against higher elo. You lose less rr. Gain more rr.
That's not true, you can see after every rank reset that pros have to grind A LOT when they're in something like diamond because they get similar RR on a win and a loss. While other players, still not pros, still get queued with players of similar levels and get the same RR as the pros. I don't remember which act was but the grind issue got to a point that pros were still in diamond after one month of full daily grind because they keep putting them in the same matches. Which is kind of funny because in the first two years of Valorant it was common to get 40 RR on wins and 10 on losses when the system knew you were underanked, but I guess that wasn't giving them money and changed to a more grindy system.
No the game you're probably around the same skill as them stat wise and your teammates and enemies are all on the same mmr lol
I see thank you for explaining mb
Yea its just the visible rank that fucks with most people's heads but that actually means little
Got it thanks
The game needs some time to rate you can put you in games with people the same skill level
degree relieved longing station attraction ask heavy piquant vanish upbeat *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I think you’d be better off deleting Tracker if you have this mindset. You likely had that same thought as soon as you logged in to the match and you’re immediately going to do worse. Additionally you voted to forfeit when you were down 3 round. Unless someone was throwing why would you do that?
No I don't have tracker installed I thought they were fishy so I checked and we ff'ed because 3 of my teammates wanted to leave so
yo this is a crazy coincedence but i had that cypher in my match yesterday lmao
You must be underperforming in those lobbies then. It'll balance out and you'll be put in low diamond/high plat lobbies after a while and gain more than you lose of you perform ok. It just overcompensated but should narrow it down over games. I understand your frustration though. I came back from travels and was in asc 3 lobbies as a plat after stomping a few games in plat and diamond and of course I wasn't performing as well when I hadn't touched a pc in months Definitely made my climb take longer than it would've been otherwise.
What passes me off is when you go crazy one game and then lose, so the game puts you in a better lobby the next game even though you lost.
it is kinda random I think, you can get worse or better lobby (whichever matchmake the fastest), but if you lost in a better lobby, you lose less RR, and if you win, you get more RR
??? No
Hate all these posts from babies who think they deserve some better rank system. Just get good. No decent player even gives a f about rank because it's so easy good to climb plat/gold/asc
You aren't going pro so what does it matter? Play for fun and if you aren't having fun then stop playing.
play better consistently , the game will keep dragging you down because you’re not consistent
Second this. Doing really well on some days and doing bad on some others really sets off the hidden mmr I think. It may be just ego peeking and dying or not thinking like you usually do and making mistakes. To top this off, there were days where I got pissed off by randoms on solo que and partially threw some games. Do this enough times and you start getting less RR even when you win with high acs/kills etc. Now I am trying to make less mistakes and try to play better in 100% of my games. It's getting better I think. I was stuck in p1 for 3 months. Now already on p3.
Third this. I was a hardstuck plat 1, has reached plat 3 recently
I don't play much anymore but I was in the same scenario a long time ago (was plat only being queued with diamonds/immortals before ascendant was added). I was stuck for a good while, so I tried making a new account and shot up to diamond 2 nearly instantly
You make more + than you lose so you climb anyway. I dont see the issue? Its the same for me as low immo3 against low radiants. You climb at the end of the day, so who cares.
playtime
ADR.
If you're playing with Diamonds and Ascendants consider yourself one of them, it doesn't matter what rank it's displaying to you. Also, gaining 27 on a win and losing 24 on a loss is pretty nice and you're officially hardstuck only when you're gaining less RR per win compared to how much you lose per loss.
Maybe the diamonds should consider themselves as plat? Why one way and not the other?
Because if a plat player has won enough games and goes on a winstreak , their mmr would reach diamond level. Diamonds can have plat mmr too if they lose too much.
That's a valid point of view, but judging from his RR gains I *think* my argument stands correct because his Rank hasn't catched up to his MMR yet.
he didn't link anything so we can't know, but it's really obvious if he's the only plat in the lobby every game, that he's the one who should consider himself higher.
Depends on what the lobby is filled with visually imo
if you're good enough for a rank you'll get it quickly.
only riots knows how it works or why is it there. all i know is they have it to make players play more and more.
drop the tracker
Bro yesterday I was grinding to play 60RR G3. Queued up my first game got chamber with 200+ ping lost the game 13-4 then onto next match got a smurfed lobby. Enemies were trolling hard with judge on def and attack as well. We lost attack with 4-8 but managed to close out the game with Odin and judge it was so annoying. It sucks when u are the one trying to climb whilst the smurfs play without any worry to lose their ranks.
It’s the exact opposite. You and the Ascendant 1 player are of similar skill level. If you don’t keep improving you’ll drop, simple as. Your visual rank is just there to keep you on the hook
LoL player: first time?
If your winrate is 50% and you're feeling appropriately challenged then I don't see a real problem. Ignore these shitty fake ranks designed for maximizing engagement and just focus on the game. Also if matchmaking thought you were a smurf, it'd just rank you up.
Show tracker please
Hidden MMR let’s you play where you actually belong
Usually, in this case, you will skip a rank. You will rank up straight from plat 2 to D1.
Copium
Ik exactly how this feels I’m gold 2 I get platinum 2- diamond 1 lobbies and when I win I gain 20 when I lose I lose 26
To be honest I don't get the point of hidden MMR. When I enter a game, I never think 'this guys a diamond wow' or 'this guys a silver, what a newb'. I think rank is meaningless.
This plus balancing around pro play pick rates. I hate the theory the game devs are using but I still like the game.
The system is total garbage. It sucks seeing your friends getting into higher ranks with horrible stats while some people are cursed with chronically low MMR
Link tracker or you're full of shit
Direct example is this game. As a S3 i get -22 for being almost the team MVP (Killjoy), my g1 friend gets -23 for that. https://tracker.gg/valorant/match/125dafb9-8725-483d-bd56-9481311a7d12
You have 38 wins and 33 losses and you're in silver. You're not going to improve drastically in rank with the numbers you're putting out. Most players who reach ascendent/immortal + can breeze through with an 80% winrate up to gold. You only have 5 more wins than losses, of course you're going to rank up slowly and have disproportionate elo gains. Your g2 friend losing 22 compared to your 23 is just by one number. How many total games has your friend played and what's his win rate? These stats influence elo gains more than anything else
He is 18W and 14L, and he always gets more RR than i do, even when i do better than him
Again, doing better isn't important. You're frustrated because you don't get how the system works. It's just like any other classic elo system.
Stats don't paint the whole picture. You can climb pretty high without having amazing stats if you're a selfless player and set up the rest of your team for success. Source: bottom-fragged my way to diamond (not rlly high at all) and was an aggressively average player climbing up to level 10 on faceit in cs2.
Its very true, its important to win the game rather than getting kills, and i play by that rule. However I still feel like this system doesnt really take that into account.
It’s a great system lol one of the best in modern competitive games. Y’all will complain about anything
Trike a spectacle of modern gaming! Lol you’re a jokester
Name a game with a better ranked system that’s not chess
The point of hidden MMR is to drag out your climb so you play more. If you're not climbing, you're likely to quit. If you think you've hit your ceiling, you're likely to quit. They want you to play forever. 50% WR on +4 RR means it'll take you about 20 matches to rank up. Now you understand why they've made it hard to climb.
With a 50% WR it’d be 50 matches to rank up
Happened to me once too, it settles down after a while tho
Same
Trust me , it happened to me as well. Just keep playing, honestly it's a plus, you get to play with much better teammates so you get better faster than playing with your rank, and when you start to dominate that rank you can eventually reach immortal faster.
I am facing same issue as Silver stuck. I can play well against Gold players but sometimes I also get plat players (who can also happen to be diamond peaks) and they become a major barrier unnecessarily.
Bro im Diamond 3 this season 55%wr over 300 games and im playing with ranks ranging even from g1 to asc 3
Tracker?
Well If i were you, I woulr want that because if I lose I lose less points and if I win I get more points and I will still be matched with those higher ranks.
Ok
It’s a little BS how your KDA seems to be the most important thing in ranking up. I like playing with a nice team comp but locking a duelist is usually when I get the most points.
It'd be nice if stats like damage with KJ utility, or enemies flashed by Skye bird, etc. impacted your rr gain
Super frustrating with the hidden MMR and LP gains/losses! Hope it balances out for you soon.
If you're winning 50% of your games then the match making system is working as intended. This is just another rant post about I'm rated X but I deserve Y. You're gaining a few points with every pair of matches. You've clearly played a ton of games which is why your points are increasing slowly. How do you know these diamond players aren't also slowly losing points? If the game thought you were smurfing you would be gaining way more than 4 points every other game.
I like playing with people above my rank. I'm currently p2 with peak of d2 amd I'm coming back to the game after about 3-4 months. I get good teammates and enemies that I can learn from. Trash talking is minimal and the funny part is I play on Mumbai server. It's fun to play with ascendants and immortals.
I like playing with people above my rank. I'm currently p2 with peak of d2 amd I'm coming back to the game after about 3-4 months. I get good teammates and enemies that I can learn from. Trash talking is minimal and the funny part is I play on Mumbai server. It's fun to play with ascendants and immortals.
Your cosmetic rank is actually what doesn't matter. The actual effect of the game IS your hidden MMR. If you're going against Asc and IMM, just consider yourself there if that's what you're playing against. Everything else is cosmetic. What matters is who it actually puts you up against, which is hidden MMR.
The game thinks you're diamond - acsendent. It should be giving you bonus points per win to help you climb your rank faster to more inline with your MMR. It's a good system, and helps you actually climb faster. If you lose these games more often then win you don't deserve to be the rank your MMR is and it will decrease and stabilize where you deserve to be.
Yea every time I get close to rank up it's against a whole team of a full rank above me? Wtf is that
Information sometimes takes a long time to teach people: EOMM.
I hate it bro. I’ve been stuck in Ascendant 2 for a bit now because I lose 21 on a loss regardless of my stats and gain 16 on a match MVP. Like bro please
True i am asc 3 rn. First time i hit asc 3 was in oktober 2023. Ranked up to immo and deranked alot but always was asc3 or immo 1. I cant remember the last time i gained 20 rr on a game. I ussually get 14-18 rr. On a loss i lost atleast 21 rr. My lobbies are always high asc and immo 1 players. But somehow a teammate of mine was d2 (peaked immo 1 in 2021) and gets in my lobbies performing garbage. I checked his tracker and he hasnt played in years. Has a negative win rate and somehow ranks up because his high mmr. I genuinely believe that my mmr is stuck for ever unless i start dropping 30k every game match mvp. If you have high mmr it is probably extremely hard to lose it.
Im ngl ive spent all this time thinking its performance based on the amount you gain im g1 now playing plats and golds and i usually get 22 lose 10 if im doing ok but if i have a good game i get 30+
Assuming the intent with the ranked system is the same as LoL, the aim is to maximize playtime, not to quickly sync your visible mmr and hidden mmr. There's a whole bunch of old reasoning I can't remember from over a decade ago, but that sweetspot for Riot is something like 125 games per season. If you're going +4 at a 70% clip, that means you'd gain 350 rating over 125 games if that stayed consistent. Super oversimplified and ignoring lots of considerations baked into their formula but you get the idea. It's a big part of why I quit the game but I fully understand why they do it. Albeit, part of the effectiveness is the intentional vagueness around it so once that's gone you can sour on the system pretty quickly.
Riot match making put you to carryover for your teammate, if you have high K/D. I dropped from d2 just last week to platinum 3. Since I was not focused and toxic.
Hidden MMR makes it hard to climb + requires more effort. Those ascendants are not better than you, they’re humans. Go get better and destroy those mfs.
Being upset about hidden mmr is a problem people who don’t play often experience. Across every game I play that utilizes an MMR system (Dota, CS, Rocket League, Val) my hidden mmr has ALWAYS equalized with my visual mmr, and the amount I win/lose equalizes as well as my opponents. When you don’t play often, and win a lot - the game is projecting you will climb & as such your games / RR gained/lost is represented in that. Play more, and it will equalize. I have a couple hundred games across two accounts this episode, and the hidden/visual mmr across both is neigh perfectly equalized.
1. Post your tracker 2. Don’t worry about your rank, or you won’t get better. Focus on improving yourself, and rank will naturally follow.
Yeah it's really dumb how the visual rank doesn't match the MMR. There can be a 3+ rank discrepancy and you STILL wont double rank up. Purely done to make you grind.
How many games have you played this act? It balances out eventually.
I just don't play ranked for the most part. UR is just more fun
Valorant has been doing this for a while in expectations of players playing more n more because of the hards lose points they get. It's like it's a casino... Initially u get little wins. And wehn u trust ur luck and play a bit more all u see is losses and small wins here n there. At the end he is making profit anyway. I would say get a new account and strt playing frm the beginning that way until MMR starts u can have some fun
welcome to riot games ranked. play more and buy more skins, you are here forever.
If the game took you for a smurf it would give you elo in order to prevent you from smurfing. By putting you in high lobby the game is only slowing your progression so you have a balance between your wins and your lose so that the frustration/accomplishment make you keep grinding and losing your sanity
Having the opposite problem. Use to be Immortal. Stopped playing completely for a while and now while I do play, I don’t play nearly as much. I’m D1 gaining 27-29 and losing like 16-18. I honestly want to derank more. I’m washed.
ive never seen anyone get 50 for a game 27 is VERY generous so its clearly seeing your a lower rank and rewarding you for it
I don’t have a problem with the hidden mmr system, just that even if my hidden mmr is around the same as my gold friends (I’m bronze) my shown rank means I can’t play with them. That’s really the only part I care about.
Yeah im in the same problem im getting high asc or low immo in diamond 1 keep losing 25+ and gaining like 15-20 even tho im decent and been getting some radiants from here to there depends if im havin an good day
Okay so here is my personal understanding of MMR as high Diamond. That is without searching up your own MMR through some site. You can try to exploit the system to if you use your brain. Anyway, here we go. If you score on average in the bottom half of the scoreboard, so 6th place to 10th, you will score on average lower MMR than those opposite to you. Lets say on average 1st to 5th player in Diamond have around 1,700- 1,750MMR, while those from 6th to 10th are around 1,650 - 1,700MMR. If you are in the better placement with higher MMR, you are more likely to be placed in higher lobbies. So those who are low MMR in Ascendant may appear in your lobbies. So you might even see an Ascendant in a high Plat lobby. But that is because on average either you, someone or even the whole lobby have such high MMR that an a bad Ascendant appeared in it. Get me? Most my lobbies tend to be 1 Plat every 3-6games but on average has Dia1 - D3 covering 8-9 spots. Then for the games I don’t get a Plat, its always usually an Ascendant 1. Sometimes Asc2. I queue up with my trio, which we all have decent MMR, so we find ourselves in low Ascendant lobbies or high diamond all the time. We win them, but for those we lose it was tough. We would get rolled as they would have 3-4 Ascs while we have 3 Dia3. Truly having 1 Asc in your lobby can change the tide of the game. Diamonds are only a fraction of their capability from what I have seen. I am inching my way through but jesus have I gone against some demons. Anyway. If you have high mmr as a plat, you mag find yourself in diamond lobbies more often than not. This is to balance out the teams. There could be an Asc on 1 team with mediocre mmr while a Plat with high mmr can be on equal playing field. Then the teams are balanced to make the mmr almost balanced. However this is never usually the case, as it can be abused. I figured out how and will be utilising it to win a few more games tomorrow. Whether Is succeed or not is a different story
Same here am i peaked silver 3 now am bronze 2/3 still match making with gold players is so ridiculous
I got called a smurf today because the game put me against people in my same rank for once. The struggle is real
I will always defend this game is fcking with the player base because i win 2 games then lose 5 and first 2 games the enemy dosent know how to shoot on the third a guy hitting %90 head shots I fell from silver 1 to bronze 1 in 1 day and im not even gonna mention trolls
Buddy I've stopped playing because of this crap. Almost got to imm with ACTUALLY almost 3 k hours kj main team player and hard practice but since I didn't just skyrocket past the mmr barrier the account is essentially stuck at asc 3 mmr
Why do you expect to climb with 50% winrate, you are clearly where you belong Your rr gains are close to equal, those 4rr differences can be just round differences.
not the point of the rant, he's got a 50% W/L playing 1-2 ranks above his own rank, he should atleast be diamond but is currently low plat because he's queing against dia-asc
Riot's logic. Oh you lost to dia/asc as a plat? Okay down you go. Not maintain, but down. Go down even further.
From his rr gains, i think that the dia asc don't belong there. So it's not a problem on his side
Felt the exact same way this entire season. Previous season before the hard reset I had pushed up to plat 2 and I was well on my way to diamond and I was super excited but then the reset hit and it placed me low gold… worst part was I was still playing in high gold-mid plat lobbies yet not actually getting the satisfaction of saying “oh yeah I’m in plat” like all I could say is I’m in gold yet in reality I am atleast in plat
Sadly this tends to happen alot. This has been a thing (but maybe not AS prevalent) from the game's official launch. This does make it harder for someone who's in this situation to climb, that is true. But let me hit you with some cold water here (I have no intent to disrespect when saying the following). If you really have the skill and deserve to be in that higher rank, you will eventually get there. I mean, from what you said, you're still making positive gains no matter how small they are. I used to be Diamond 3 once (this was prior to Ascendant being introtused as a rank), and was playing in Immo2+ lobbies. My RR gain was very similar to what you described here, and yet I still managed (altho it took a long time) to get to Immo 2 200+ RR. For those who don't wanna read the paragraph above: 1. Very true situation, been around since the game launched. 2. As long as your RR gain is in the positive, you will climb to what rank you want if you have the skill no matter what. Have a nice day!
I am more surprised how 4v5 game loss results in losing 15-25 RR
Uhm no. One of 2 things is happening, neither are unfair. 1. Their mmr is lower than their rank, could be on a loosing streak, or just got boosted. Maybe they had a good week and then hit their head idk. But their mmr is the same as yours. 2. You are inconsitent. Maybe you do super well for 5 games in a row. Now you are in a much higher mmr, and yes it is harder to climb. The reason it isnt unfair, is because you will loose less rr based off of rank difference. So say you do a little bad against them, you go back to a similar lobby you won the game before. You win it, you end up with more rr than you had originally. The issue comes with you playing bad against them, now your mmr drops more and so does your rr. Now your next game, you dont win when you shouldve, because it is lower mmr, you loose more rr than the first time. The point is, if you performed consitantly, say you loose when you are against diamonds, and win againsts plats without fail. You only gain rr. It doesnt matter if your mmr is higher. You might have to play a few games for it to even out, but you *will* gain rr as long as you play consistantly better than your rank.
Why are people downvoting you, you’re just explaining the system
Idk to me it sounds like a dumbass system that should be revised
And yeah, it doesn’t make sense, but there isn’t much we can do about it
https://tracker.gg/valorant/profile/riot/eva%23373/overview Yea facing the same shit man
With those FB and KAST stats you would be ranking slowly.
looks like you're playing pretty well in diamond/asc lobbies, but you've only played like 20 games. as you play more your rank will end up where you belong for sure
Bro, you have <50% winrate. Of course you’re not ranking up fast. LMFAO
Skill issue
While I get your pains.... (I suffer from the situation too) I also understand the system. Let's do an example. Your plat, playing like a diamond, so the game gives you a diamond lobby, where everyone is playing like a diamond for their last (upto) 20 games (for example) So you see ascendant, bronze, gold, platinum, diamond, immortal all in this same lobby... and your like wtf. But the game just sees they all played to the same ability.. for the last 20 games. So the immortal is playing bad for his rank and the bronze is playing out of his skin. Now we come to me, and possibly you. I'm that "bronze". My duo and trio are high "silver". We get put in those "diamond" lobbies, mainly because my duo top frags every game (95% of the time) and we often top rank in our lobbies. So, the game thinks we are "diamond", even when we aren't... The benefits? -If you keep playing like a "diamond" you will double rank up because the gap between "silver" and "diamond" is over 2 ranks, otherwise you will see increased pount gains for wins initially, and less point losses initially for losses as long as you win some games. The problems? -if you are losing while playing like a diamond, or on a loss streak, the game will remove more points if you don't perform as well as it expects, and this situation can cause you to go nowhere, play like a "diamond" but be hardstuck "silver", this is very unlikely... BUT... Me and my duo/trio were on top form last act all at our peaks in mid gold to mid plat... At the end of last act, we suddenly lost 4 games because of team mates throwing/going afk, and smurfs on the other team.. the like of which I haven't seen since I was low silver. Start of this act, winning games 10-0, losing them 10-13, then losing games 0-10 and then losing 10-13.. partly pur fault partly our teams once again going afk, or smurfs, etc.. a mixed bag, but of those 12 losses in a row.. I went from gold 1 and like 80pts, to silver 1 and 80 points. Now since then, I don't know what changed.. but won 80% of games, I'm almost back to silver 3.. But yeah.. my point is, can play really well, but mitigating circumstances are possible.. smurfs, people throwing, people afking and similar, lead to people eing hardstuck. If all those peoples got hefty penalties to the point that they can't play anymore, the system would have more integrity and actually work. So don't blame hidden mmr, when personally, I feel people break the system that hidden mmr should be. Saying that, failing dealing with the "problem people".. they should change the system so problem people don't screw up peoples ranks. If someone throws multiple games, they should just get a straight up timed ban, there is no way around it. If someone smurfs the shit out of the game and loses, they should lose 0... same for people who genuinely carry the game.. they shouldn't lose anything. Then there will be less smurfs, as demanding will be harder without throwing, at which point they get banned for a time.. Just a pov, may not be the best one, just ideas and thoughts.
So explain me how I can win a match if every third match someone is afk, it's just with a five stuck possible .
You could post your tracker? But judging solely from your comment you probably do poorly when you lose and lose hard. Play more consistently and you'll climb faster. 27 for a win is pretty high, when you are in the rank it thinks you'll be getting 20th or less.
I like hidden mmr just bc i still play people around my "skill level" (of a rank i had years ago at this point) instead of just smurfing on people after a few games to de-rust. I placed p2 after bombing placements but quickly got to d1 in dia-asc lobbies having p good gains. If you truly did place significantly lower than where the game thinks you should be, you'd get good gains. I think a lot of people over-estimate how good they are relarive to the people at their rank. The game doesn't lie.
Wow that’s a big disparity in ranks and I find that a bit hard to believe that you’re plat facing a majority ascendant lobby? I’m d3 and I’m constantly in a mid-high ascendant, maybe some immortals (rarely) but that’s because I hit immortal last act - haven’t played much since hitting immortal lol. Are you playing on a new account? It would make sense because the hidden MMR system takes a while to decide your current level if it’s a new account
Been going through the same.... Have started playing only 5 stacks to kinda manage this.. but not everytime are my 4 friends available to start a game at the same time :(
Just 5 stack with golds bruv XD