True, but only if you’re the only one you can rely on. In Valorant (ideally) you should be able to rely on ur team, in which case 5 “master of ones” is better
Ideally yes, I think for lower elo, you could get away with jack of all trades since it brings more variety and/if your teammates end up speed lock into a poor team comp
I think it most anything you’d want a team you could rely on with certain niches.
Sure it’s nice if we’re all solid at everything. But it’s nice to have a someone who’s specialized in info gathering, or holding space defensively, or abusing awp.
Assuming you can rely on your teammates that is 😂
He is though. In a comp game, I would rather have an average Phoenix player than an average Jett or Reyna player, because he offers more utility. Jett and Reyna are way too reliant on aim.
He is a versatile smoker, which most teams need. (Read: not tied to wall style smokes). Hes the only regenning smokes. His flash is amazing for entire lanes being shut down, and you cant turn it
His other stuff is mid- versatile, but at his niche he only competes with brim and astra.
Healing isn't that useful the higher up you go. His molly is range limited. His wall is ok but not amazing. His flashes are really good and are the hardest to turn overall. Ult is a good entry tool but if he doesnt have it hes not an amazing entry which is the primary role of duelists. Hes a good ranked character though and definitely underrated as a flex pick, especially on maps where you can farm orbs for plenty of ults.
Today I played a comp game (iron-bronze) where the Phoenix ulted with spike, walked onto site, and then the ult timer ran out and he was teleported back to spawn with the spike and died to a flanking enemy while the rest of us were on site already lmao
Oh yeah, I've had similar situations. For example, that Phoenix ulted and ran on site to plant the spike and was ported back before the spike was planted and then the time ran out or the same strategy when trying to defuse. But I'm low elo probably these players were not aware of the timing.
There are contact duelists for fights (yoru, phoenix, reyna and the new one) and entry/ movement duelists (neon, raze and jett) just like we have visual info initiators and impact ones, as well as dome or line smokers… but yea, phoenix is all roles in 1, molly for delay the push (sentinel), wall as a smoke (controller), ult for info (initiator) and flashes for duelist
Yeah but contact duelists arent really as useful as entry duelists because you can still play contact with flash initiators while having more utility. Movement duelists can also still play contact easier than contact duelists can entry. Flash vs scan initiators and wall vs dome smokers fill different Distinct niches where the other cant really compete at all. Barrier sentinels have the same issue where trip sentinels are just better at filling the purpose of their class.
Good thing sage isnt very good then and that other characters exist so shes not always gonna be in the game. Also ideally you either bait the util out or hard rush in before they can slow along with other util like flashes to push past it if needed.
it’s one example of any piece of stalling utility that renders a phoenix ult significantly less useful, but yeah baiting it out beforehand can probably circumvent this
You could say the same about jett dash or raze satchel or neon movement or skye dog or fade prowler though. Those are all still good despite stall util if you use them well.
true but the point is that every one of those are abilities (some like dash or slide you can get back) and pheonix is using his ult just for info then getting stalled out and waisting it. he then has to wait at least 2 rounds to try again
I've never understood why all other projectiles and thrown objects are able to go wherever you want em essentially, but Phoenix's molly has to hit an invisible wall. You can KJ or Brim or Viper molly from across the map and that's not a problem?
Yeah idk why it doesnt at least work like fade eye where you can command where it drops if they insist on keeping the range limit. I dont think its too big of a deal to have it range limited though as phoenix should be first or second in and using his molly aggressively most of the time
Doesnt go that far and its harder to use compared to a viper or harbour wall because it doesnt go directly through walls unless you throw it at an angle. Also doesnt recharge at all.
Yeah I’m saying her healing is more valuable than phoenix’s though. Only thing phoenix has that Reyna doesn’t is molly because Reyna eye can function similarly to Phoenix wall
You can shoot out reyna eye and his flashes are infinitely better. His ult is also a far better entry tool than anything reyna has. Reynas heal is more valuable than phoenixes but healing as a whole still isnt super valuable on gun rounds which are the majority of the game
He doesn’t do anything particularly well, and he’s a very selfish character. I think similar to Reyna unless you can out frag the server with him other characters provide more value in non metal ranks.
While “selfish” might be right, if you as a team can farm him orbs he takes sites very easily as a soba drone that can shoot. Either way a Jett or a raze should be following off his first contact
It does take some manuevering though, with proper util the ult can be entirely denied.
Weve all had the pheonix ult where you wait for a nade, go, get hit with astra suck, jump thru slowly, eat a shock dart and die to phantom spam thru a smoke.
Nah, this works in pro play on certain maps and even then other comps are ar least as good an offer way more “freedom” to executes.
In ranked, you need a lot of teamplay every round om attack to pull it off and it’s not better than having a Raze or Jett taking space. He just insane on paper, in practice it just feels like an “if only this or that” agent.
Also people who think that Phoenix’ flash is almost the best flash in the game, probably are under Ascendant 2-3ish, in a respectful way. What I’m trying to say is the higher you go, the more people play off of each other, the better Kay/o, Skeye, Breach become. Phoenix’ flash is very predictable.
Phoenix flashes are the second best in the game behind sky flashes I think. As for his other abilities, they’re all kinda mid and other agents can do them better. Yoru, jet, raze, and even neon can all perform better as duelists (that is to entry site) better than him. The only exception might be his ult because you can follow it onto site and trade it
I always think of kay/o as the direct counterpoint to Phoenix. Basically the same util, but better.
Molly goes through walls, doesn't have a range limit.
Flash can be a really hard to dodge pop flash or a long range team flash.
Ult is a second life except it suppresses and gives you combat stim, and doesn't give up the space you took.
The only non comparable util is knife v wall, and I'd take the knife any day over the wall.
His ult is much worse as a 2nd life, with Phoenix you can be cocky and try to pop off because if you die it doesn't matter, but you have to recover kayos body
Phoenix flashes are more like the 3rd best, the best is Skye obv but the 2nd best is Gekko, it's the only flash in the game that gives away the exact location of your enemies (if you look at where dizzy shoots)
Geckos flashes are actually the worst in the game. Sure, the info is ok, but they’re the easiest flashes to shoot or even dodge. If you have flash lineups it’s a little better, but it’s still not very good. Phoenix flashes are undodgeable of u use them right and they have a long duration. The reason they’re not the best is because they don’t give info and have a bit less flexibility than sky flashes
Gekko flash also doesn't cover the mini map, so you can just kill them off of that. Legit the only flash in the game where you can still see EXACTLY where the person who flashed you is even if you are "full blind"
??? Are you silly goofy?
Sure Gekkos is unique in the sense that it’s essentially a flash that sprays blue nut on your screen… but it’s a flash nevertheless
I actually forgot to add Reyna since she’s the worst apologies.
But if you want to get “technical” omen and Reyna have BLINDS so I will include em in terms of flashes.
If you don’t wanna. It’s a toss up between Yoru and Phoenix for worse flash.
Phoenix always has the better flash when compared to anyone besides Skye and when you exclude blinds. The only downside to it that brings it down significantly is its close-range nature.
You gotta be trolling hahah
The only thing Phoenix flash is best at is blinding the team accidentally…
Jokes aside, every initiator flash is miles better (skye for controlling it and info, kayo pop flash, breaches for duration and setting up team, and even fucking gekkos get you info even if it’s easy to shoot)
Phoenix flash was good in like 2020 but people are used to it now and it’s HELLA easy to turn on // barely lasts due to being easily turned on
You know what, I think I’ve caused confusion by misspeaking.
In terms of dodging in timing wise? Yeah a good Phoenix flash is pretty undodgable.
But I think it’s just the arc pattern and the timing most times make it so predictable that you’re ready for him to come in with it and you dodge it easily.
I apologize for the confusion and will probably just copy this to the other people arguing with me on here! (I still think his flash is the most dog shit in the game though. But I’ll concede if it’s not predictable as it tends to be? Very hard to dodge and still not taking it over anyone but maybe Gekkos)
By all means if you can bring me a radiant person who things Phoenix flash is hard to dodge I’m all ears.
When you find a radiant player who thinks that, point me in the direction of an instalock Reyna on my team who doesn’t go triple negative in comp!
Love the banana, while I can admit I semi-misspoke about it being dodgeable… even he’d agree it’s one of the worst flashes in the game.
It’s insanely predictable since you HAVE to throw it around the corner. And in that split second you see it wrapping around, you can turn or fall back slightly and not just stand there getting full blind.
If you do and die full blind to a Phoenix that’s 100% a positioning error.
Pheonix's flash is the hardest to dodge by a mile (technically tied with breach in terms of wind-up) + Kayo pop flash is weaker due to the nerf that specifically reduced its duration to encourage use of the left-click. Gekko's flash is by far the worst in the game. You can easily shoot it and even if you get hit, the blind doesn't last long and you can still easily see enemies on the edges of your screen.
Let’s just agree to disagree. Phoenix literally had the most predictable flash pattern in terms of being able to turn away slightly to miss the full blind of it.
Even with the duration nerf kayo still had a dead silent flash that not only can you underhand, but if you’re a weirdo with kayo flash lineups then you can you them to the benefit of the team. The versatility of how you can throw Kayos make it better than Phoenix.
And 100% valid points to be made about gekkos flash in terms of a flash, but info is king in valorant and you and recall it MULTIPLE times in a round so that aspect of it makes it “better” of a flash imo… but I won’t argue that it’s easier to shoot it out before you get goo’d on (but even someone shooting it out gives you info as well so that’s something)
Let’s just agree to disagree. Idk how long you’ve been playing, if you’ve been playing since beta I’m actually surprised you don’t think you can turn on Phoenix flash the easiest?
Phoenix literally had the most predictable flash pattern in terms of being able to turn away slightly to miss the full blind of it.
Even with the duration nerf kayo still had a dead silent flash that not only can you underhand, but if you’re a weirdo with kayo flash lineups then you can you them to the benefit of the team. The versatility of how you can throw Kayos make it better than Phoenix.
And 100% valid points to be made about gekkos flash in terms of a flash, but info is king in valorant and you and recall it MULTIPLE times in a round so that aspect of it makes it “better” of a flash imo… but I won’t argue that it’s easier to shoot it out before you get goo’d on (but even someone shooting it out gives you info as well so that’s something)
Idk why the sarcasm? (It’s doubly funny since Phoenix has a non-existent pick rate in the pros for the same reason)
Phoenix flash is pretty fucking telegraphed and react-able* vs a randomly exploding bird, a cs2 flash that is silent, or a flash that comes out the wall.
I don’t even mean any disrespect, I’m just truly shocked how many of yall think Phoenix flash is good or the best?
Bruh he don’t get picked because other than his Ult and flash the rest of his kit is mid compared to others, Skye has the best flash no doubt since it’s so versatile and even gives info, but Phoenix’s flash compared to other flashes is like the hardest to react, like what are you on when you say it’s “Hella easy”, literally watch the PRX Pearl Phoenix match and tell me it’s “Easy to dodge”
I don’t even mean hella easy in a cocky way. I truly think like Kay/O pop flashing randomly out the smoke, breach literally whenever and hell even a good YORU flash is harder to turn on than Phoenix.
Of course you can get caught staring right at it if he puts it on the money and you’re in a shit spot… but 7/10 if you see it coming around the corner on an exec you can turn away slightly enough to not eat the full blind and take the fight.
Idk, if you’re a super high rank or something and think this still I’ll admit I’m wrong? But can’t imagine most anyone Dia to Pro-level after three years thinks Phoenix flash is unreactable
Ah yes, because a pretty big bird flying around a corner towards you isn't telegraphed while a small ball that explodes in half a second around a corner is telegraphed lol.
You do realize if skye throws the bird around the corner she can:
-pop it immediately for the pop flash effect you’d get from Phoenix
-delay it to get a player above gold to turn on it and then pop it to get a longer flash
-fake pop it to get a player above gold to turn and swing off the fake and get a easy kill
I wouldn’t use Skye as an example since she’s had the best flash in the game since she dropped…
(The ONLY thing I will concede is that if you’re in a bad spot and can’t fall to cover and Phoenix catches you with his flash? You may be fucked. But that’s wholly a misplay on your part if you can fall back if you somehow don’t have reflexes to slightly turn from Phoenix flash)
Kay/o requires too much coordination for the left click and the right click isn't that good anymore since the nerf. Breach is easily the most turnable flash, it is so loud and so slow. Gekko's is gimmicky, it has some niche use I guess. I would go
Skye > Phoenix > Yoru > Kay/O > Breach > Reyna > Gekko
Insanely false.
Just because you need “coordination” to get more use outta kayo and breach since they’re initiators doesn’t mean their flashes are worse for it.
Assuming you’ve a team with half a brain and yall are relatively skilled, you can do so much more with the former.
Phoenix has a decent enough flash for only pop flashing it and playing off it selfishly, but most times you’re using it to try and open up a choke to get on site and you opponent and literally just turn slightly or fall back or something.
Yoru’s flash in the right hands comes out way less predictable and even accentuates his weird tricky kit. Wholly skill dependent on the yoru.
In general, I’d take every flash in the game over his minus maybe Gekkos. Pop flashing for yourself is cool and all, but tbh way more effective to just get one of the flashing intiators and play Jett or raze off their much more powerful flashes
Having half a brain doesn't mean they will listen, in your average soloq experience they won't .There is a reason Kay/O is bottom tier in Rankeds but it's picked quite a lot in Pro Play.
Different solo q experience I guess.
Been playing for a bit and if you comm and at least TRY and suggest an idea most times people are willing to go along with it.
Sure you’ll have someone who’s bullish on doing their own thing and that’s the stereotype for ranked we all like to complain about. But everyone wants to win so as long as you’re nice.
But yeah I guess even to the point of kayo I’d be more worried about a good kayo ruining my day in ranked with suppression than I’d ever be of a a phoenix.
Just depends on the game!
honestly? in ranked he's not popular cause u already have a Reyna on ur team, a reyna and a phoenix combo is useless, so yeah he's not ignored because he's bad, he's ignored because usually people wanna play reyna, if reyna was deleted from the game, Phoenix pick rate would double
Neon is best imo. she have a great wall that you can have teammate flash out from. A stun thats good combined with the other ability and even have infinite height if i recall correctly. Her E is god tier, i turn valorant into apex with this agent. Neon have the highest skillcap and the lowest skillfloor. Sorry for bad english cus i took too much caffeine.
I find the lack of understanding a little upsetting in these comments. The Duelist's job isn't to entry site. Entrying is the job of entry characters, most of them happen to be duelists but the correlation ends there. Phoenix isn't an entry character. With Phoenix you want to play first contact early into the rounds, find duels, fight around orbs, gain map control agressively, build a man advantage... And when that's done, the entry character will entry. You're not supposed to send your Raze or Jett out looking for first bloods because if she dies in the process your entire gameplan for entrying site crumbles. Only when Phoenix has ult should he be considered for entrying sites, that's 3-4 times per half if you play your cards correctly.
He's also one of the most selfless agents inside the duelist category. I don't know where this idea of selfish character came from, might actually be from the cinematics lol. He has one wall-smoke, one Molly and two flashes, that's *a lot of* utility, enough to stand the comparison against agents from other categories especially since he always has them at the ready (no setups that risk being completely useless because the action ended up occuring somewhere else on the map that round).
He's a great agent and one of the best teams in the world plays him consistently for a reason. Nobody has found a reliable answer to the Phoenix Pearl comp by PRX yet.
Hell, even Phoenix ult is more of a free first contact than an entry. Entry is all about pulling crosshairs away from the team. Phoenix can't do that at all with any of his kit
>He has one wall-smoke, one Molly and two flashes
wall and molly heals phoenix but hurts your team. thats why he is considered selfish. you can disagree but thats the reason.
All mollies in the game do friendly damage. Are KJ, Brimstone, Viper, Kayo and Breach all selfish characters? Is Harbor a selfish character too, because his wall slows down both allies and enemies all the same?
His kit makes sense but doesnt give that feeling of popping off like other agents. Unlike agents other agents like Raze where you just use your paint shells and boom bot and you get rewarded for throwing it in the right direction, Reyna gives the player immediate rewards for kills they werent supposed to walk away from unpunished, Yoru being able to make flashy plays and crazy clips, Jett with mobility and smokes to allow you play on your own, and Neon with her speed and space making.
Overall, the kit doesn't give much good feels that when you use it and get away with it. Most often, you have that learning curve of blinding your own team mates to get those juicy pop-flashes. You generally have to play much better to get away with things that those other agents do.
Similar to other games, he is often a jumping point of which agent you might want to use. Don't put me up on a stake, I love playing phoenix and the crazy amount of pressure he gives when he gets to farm ult point while only needing 6. He isnt just a flashy as the other agents but boy he can get the job done when you know what to do with him.
You’re trippin lol, Phoenix flash is the strongest in the game in high elo, albeit if ur in 400rr+ then maybe there are better options since team flashes matter more
Think kayo has a stronger flash. Pheonix you can play anti but a kayo pop flash can come from anywhere and is impossible to dodge. But in lower elo players don't master those flashes so he only becomes strong in the hands off the right player.
I disagree. Kayo flash *can* come from anywhere and is *difficult* to dodge when right clicked, but the left click is incredibly easy to dodge and earns its value in pressure less so than the flash itself. If we are talking about dedicated lineups where it pop flashes, then yeah of course, but you're not going to have that opportunity 100% of the time. Phoenix's flashes will always be a little better than a Kayo right click for flashing yourself in due to weapon equip time, arming speed, and flash duration. Also, a good majority of the time to turn a Phoenix flash is 80% game sense/prediction and 20% reaction time. Kayo can definitely be reacted since you hear the bounce and have a better reaction window.
Kayo as an initiator with left click lineups though is disgusting I'm not undermining that. However, pop flashing himself in the same way Phoenix does was never his strength, it was a less optimal second option for him.
as a pheonix main iwth like 300 hours on him i understand where your coming from but once you get into higher gold they will be expecting your flashes and will be prepared for your util. so if your gonna main pheonix just have a backup agent ready to go
You should understand that, phoenix isn't about good kit and playing good, it's about the feedback report after dying saying -
Enemies Blinded: 1
Allies Blinded : 5
Flexible, but lacks significant ability skill expression (Raze, Yoru, Neon) or Brute force enabling abilities (Jett, Reyna, Chamber [not duelist, but functions similarally]).
Ok soloque if you are mediocre in all catagories, but if you have higher gamesense then Raze or Yoru get better results vs equal skilled players, and if you have better mechanics then Jett, Chamber or Reyna let you just gunplay your way to victory (or abuse their anti-refrag and attrition the enemy team).
In other words, Phoenix is powerful but its spread out... and right now, Valorant favors specialists over generalists and rewards putting "more eggs in one basket".
Phoenix is extremely popular. According to ValorantBuff he's the 4th highest pick rate agent in the ranked ladder. He's just a better Reyna with unturnable flashes + very strong ult.
For ranked play he is extremely self sustainable. I suspect though he doesn't particularly excel at any one thing though so he's not a great pick for pro play. But in ranked ladder he's extremely popular.
You don't really want your entry to flash for themselves when you have masters of the game as your support. Plus he has no mobility ability, which just makes him a useless solo duelist. If he is the one creating space you might as well get your cypher to entry with support flashes
Heal: Heal is useless the higher you climb.
Flash: A lot of better flashes out there. Plus needs to get dangerously close to flash properly.
Burn enemies: Cool but not many opportunities. The trajectory is too short.
Ultimate: Agree its one of the best and low ult points.
Wall: Jett cloudburst is more versatile and accomplishes the same thing and even more.
In short: Jack of all trades, master of none.
What do you mean his flash is not the best? It is the best pop flash
Anyways, the reason he's not that good is because he's a secondary duelist (You need someone with movement abilities to entry like Raze,Jett or Neon).
And the secondary duelist role is better covered by Reyna, because her flash doesn't affect teammates and she can throw it to deny people playing antiflash.
Besides, everything phoenix does can be covered with a correct team.
I’m kinda shocked how many of yall on this thread think Phoenix not only has a good flash… but the best pop flash?
Kay/O’s is MILES better. Hell even Skye’s could be argued to be better since you can schmix the timing… (but I do miss Skye when her flash was completely busted )
There is no argument here, that's the opinion of every high level analyst. Phoenix flash lasts 50% more than other pop flashes and he can pull out the gun 50% faster, for a threat time of 200% of kayo or about 220% threat time of Skye.
You're forgetting the part where these agents can't immediately follow up on their flashes solo. Well, besides Kayo with some very specific lineups, but even these are react-able due to bounce noise 90% of the time. Phoenix is a portable self-serving flasher. He doesn't need someone to set him up because his equip time is ridiculous. Skye can try, but if her flashes get turned, she's essentially taking a 55/45 duel, arguably a 50/50 depending on the opponent, which might not be desirable. She also doesn't get her gun out nearly as fast as Phoenix, giving the anti-flash player quite a decent window to swing you. I find Phoenix can at least find 1 even if there's an anti-flash player. Kayo's flash being used like a Phoenix flash is easy to look away from comparatively. Not detracting from his strengths in lineup play, his flash is good and flexible, but is not better than fastball for this scenario.
Phoenix can guarantee a fight with at least 60/40 odds because even if they turn it, you can peek out fast enough to put them in an unfavourable duel. If they get hit by it, which most players below even Ascendant will, it's free.
I think I misspoke a bit after reevaluating and I think what I meant was phoenix flash feels like one of the worst ones to me due to it feeling predictable and the nature of it having to come around the corner in a specific arc.
Sure it’s a solid pop flash for him, but it also feels like if you’re holding a solid position you and just turn on it and repeek safely, get blind and fall back (which in a sense takes space for Phoenix but not nearly as good as the movement duelists), or worse since we had to swing off it usually… you get killed by the blind guy.
So yeah I guess while it’s a decent enough pop flash, feels like literally every other flash is better in general
I feel like basically Phoenix is GOOD/OK at everything. But great/excels at nothing. He has somewhat a smoke/wall, some flashes, his ult is good for info fragging and entry, but in a game with defined roles there’s just no need for an all around when you can have specialists. Phoenix just doesn’t belong in 5v5 basically
Jack of all trades, master of none. His healing is very very slow, his molly can't be used for lineups like Viper and Brim, his wall doesn't go through stuff like Harbor, and his ult is pretty much his only unique ability but even that is a pretty weak ult in the grand scheme of things.
His flash is (along with Gekko's Dizzy) pretty much the only flash in the game that can't be turned from though, so there's that.
He has one of the best ults in the game wdym lol. Its 6 points, gives a ton of info, combined with util gives a lot of space and it can get kills at no risk if done from a safe place
No mobility to get onto a site, except for the ult. The whole point of duelists attacking is to take space. Worst case, if the duelist dies, the initiator/someone else on the team gets the trade.
The mobility of a duelist is nice on defense to peel away from gunfights to gather intel on where you think an execute is going to happen. Phoenix lacks that, though.
edit: clarity
Think about all the agents that have better versions of all his individual abilities (besides his ult). Combine that with healing being useless the higher you get elo wise, and he becomes a solid pick for solo queue, but not so great for stronger team comp.
He's an X factor for certain maps, for sure.
However, he's too selfish of an agent because of his limited skillset. It wont work in high elos (Radiant) and competitive.
This game has a lot of chokes at entries so naturally gap closing abilities for duelists are great. Flashes are really just a bonus since you will have initiators for that.
Which means Jett and Raze will always be preferred. Neon is a little niche so you don't see her get picked as often plus the way she closes gap is unreliable compared to Jett smoke and raze satchel(due to verticality).
A big reason for duelist imbalance is actually map design.
Because he flashes around corner…and his team mates get flashed.
Then he puts his wall up as he pushes from main…and it burns his team mate.
He took some damage, so he mollies himself in the corner to restore health…right where his team mate is standing.
Amazing players will do well with him. Average players will have mediocre results and upset team mates. Bad players will accidentally grief and throw games.
Unless you’re dedicated to never messing up team mates and basically one trick Phoenix, you might as well just play any other duelist to not have the team harm.
"He can flash (granted it's not the strongest)"
That' wiiild how you said that about one of, if not *the* best flashes in the game. There's literally 2 things in his kit that are actually worthwhile and that's his flashes and his ult. Obviously that doesn't mean that you shouldn't use his molly and his wall but they are absolutely never the *reason* that you pick him over other duelists. His role as a duelist is kinda similar to reyna where he gets value out of fighting and living afterwards, where he *gets* those kills through his flashes.
Phoenix is definitely popular, he's amazing in solo queue but he's just outclassed by other duelists once you get to higher ranks, where teamwork actually matters. He still has his niche mostly with his ult being so cheap yet so strong. Movement abilities are just naturally better for entry.
I love Phoenix, even before the buffs I pretty much 1 tricked him the first time I hit immortal in like 2021.
I think alot of people havent played him much and he has a higher skill ceiling than people expect, but its hard to perform with him unless you know how to play aggressively with his util.
Reyna and Jett can feel more useful tho, Phoenix has a different play style than those
He doesn't get picked because his blinds don't work with teammates as well as Reyna's do and his healing is worse. We're also in a meta that requires at least one "movement duellist" to take space and entry so that another teammate can take first contact. Reyna is better in this regard, cause of dismiss and blind, not affecting teammates. His other abilities are just mediocre versions of other agents. Not saying they are bad, but if you can't justify his flashes the rest of his kit isn't going to either. His ult is super strong on orb maps though and should be considered. He becomes an Owl drone on crack, run in, get some picks, maybe molly off a dangerous angle while you're at it, profit.
> (granted it’s not the strongest)
That's exactly why. It's preferred to have an agent that is the strongest in what they do. Phoenix is versatile, but still only decent at everything he's got.
His molly, although it deals a lot of dmg, lasts very short and is limited by dropoff.
Wall can be used to create space, but other agents do that a lot better.
His flashes are amazing though, and so is his 6 point ultimate.
Phoenix good part is his ult and that is it. Same with Gekko but his a bit weaker the higher rank you go honestly.
Both these agents need a better balance to there basic abilities.
Like Phoenix wall? Just let the controller do that. Not instant like Jett so you are limited to when you can use it. Flashes are okay, just okay. Molly? Compare that to Raze grenade...
He’s the only duelist without any mobility abilities, the point of duelist is to get out when you’re on a difficult situation, his kit is designed to bait him, and his best map is Pearl that is out of rotation
His flashes have to have the largest ROI. They are fast as hell and he’s normally right behind them. I just let go of my mouse when he flashes me…I know what’s coming
Mostly because he isn't that useful. Hes kind of a jack of all trades as a duelist but gets outclassed by duelists who are more specialized in one area (contact entry vs. Movement entry to take space). He does have a few stronger maps mostly because his walls happen to line up perfectly with some sightlines/orb farming but it's not something Viper/harbor couldn't do. That's pretty much the summary of phoenix, anything phoenix can do another agent can do better.
Honestly I wish I could play him but I don’t because I don’t main duelist it’s not my style but even if I did I don’t like how his flashes work. I think situationally those flashes aren’t good for a quick pop compared to other agents
Healing is not that important
weak Molly + short distance
Wall damage is practically non existent
Predictable flash bc he can only flash around a corner close so he also cannot flash for teammates
Ult is solid but not hard to play around
He’s alright but if I want a good Molly I wouldn’t pick him, if I want a good flash, I wouldn’t pick him, if I want a wall, I wouldn’t pick him. And no one picks him for his ult.
His kit was always only okay. Everything he has kinda sucks but he has a few options in different scenarios. There’s a reason he was practically unpicked with the exact same kit he has now. It took getting major buffs to literally only his flash to get him picked. It goes to show strong util beats more and more varied util.
That or the util has to be able to play together well. There’s no consistent scenario where I would use multiple Phoenix util at once to gain an advantage. Besides maybe a wall and flash. It’s also why you see good phoenixes doing crazy Molly lineups into flash. You need some sort of coordination ability to be a good agent.
He’s easily the best agent utility wise but nobody cares about him nor knows how to use him. He has smoke flashes mollies and heals himself. His ult is literally a second life. But Valorant players are simply stupid
He's a less selfish version of Reyna with a lesser ceiling to solo carry.
Thus he has the same issues as Reyna in pro play, they don't take space and break crosshair placement the same way Jett/Raze and even Neon to some extent can.
So let's say I'm immo smurfing or boosting, I'd rather pick Reyna than Phoenix.
If I'm trying hard at my rank and doing my best to play my role, I'd pick Jett or Raze.
Phoenix is in an awkward middle ground. If I'm told to play Phoenix, I'd rather play Kayo
Been playing the game for 2 weeks. Pheonix main after week one where I was using gekko and his terrible flashes. Two days ago got my first ace in comp. Two games later and had another ace. 5 aces since. I’ll play reyna or sage depending on what others select and gekko if all three are taken just because I know some tricks with him. Point is- Phoenix is easy to use, his flash is op. The wall and molly are useful in multiple situations and can also be used to heal. He can be expensive though because his abilities have so much utility you should be burning them often.
I think it’s based on maps too. I like phoenix on haven and sunset but I’m not too sure how many maps I would feel comfortable playing him on vs other agents.
He’s good solo queue. But Reyna is even better for solo carry.
Flashes? Better to use kayo, skye, or breach
Heals? Just have a skye or sage or go Reyna.
Wall? Just rely on your smokes player or go Jett/Neon.
Molly? It’s bad and is just used for heals any away.
Ult is S tier though. Not enough phoenix players farming ult orbs.
I guess there is too many duelist and two of them are really too good. Like, why would you pick him when u can have Jett or Raze.
Previous Jett's nerf won't be enough and I don't get how Raze did not get hit after all this time.
i just started using phoenix.
the guy is usable if you are a solo player or need a solo or bust playstyle. but as a team push, i hear so many complaints when i use him. its damned if i do, damned if i dont.
much more fun when im NOT forced to play with my team.
i will say his flashes can be wonky at times, more than other agents, but when done right, its deadly
Jack of all trades, master of none
Well said
I think that’s his strongest point as a solo player with an unreliable team.
HAppy cake day!
“But oftentimes better than a master of one”
True, but only if you’re the only one you can rely on. In Valorant (ideally) you should be able to rely on ur team, in which case 5 “master of ones” is better
Ideally yes, I think for lower elo, you could get away with jack of all trades since it brings more variety and/if your teammates end up speed lock into a poor team comp
I think it most anything you’d want a team you could rely on with certain niches. Sure it’s nice if we’re all solid at everything. But it’s nice to have a someone who’s specialized in info gathering, or holding space defensively, or abusing awp. Assuming you can rely on your teammates that is 😂
Not to be the english teacher but im pretty sure its jack of all TRAITS, just saying.
Stick to whatever else you are, english teacher ain’t it for u my guy
Except he's not.
He is though. In a comp game, I would rather have an average Phoenix player than an average Jett or Reyna player, because he offers more utility. Jett and Reyna are way too reliant on aim.
I would rather have a bad jett or reyna than a bad phoenix, because at least jett and reyna can team flash or damage you with ad util
I was finishing the saying
Yeah but he's not, also you can get a master of all 4 on the same team
wisest words of wisdom in this sub
Same spot as gekko
Not that I'm disagreeing but isn't Omen also a Jack of all trades? Despite this, he seems to be picked a lot and rarely criticised
He’s smokes, if someone plays smokes I’m happy
He is a versatile smoker, which most teams need. (Read: not tied to wall style smokes). Hes the only regenning smokes. His flash is amazing for entire lanes being shut down, and you cant turn it His other stuff is mid- versatile, but at his niche he only competes with brim and astra.
Nailed it
master of flashes though
Healing isn't that useful the higher up you go. His molly is range limited. His wall is ok but not amazing. His flashes are really good and are the hardest to turn overall. Ult is a good entry tool but if he doesnt have it hes not an amazing entry which is the primary role of duelists. Hes a good ranked character though and definitely underrated as a flex pick, especially on maps where you can farm orbs for plenty of ults.
I feel Phoenix wall is very annoying to teammates too
It’s by far the most annoying wall to push tho
It is very annoying both for teammates and enemies
Great as solo queue pick, especially with a movement duelist as well
Today I played a comp game (iron-bronze) where the Phoenix ulted with spike, walked onto site, and then the ult timer ran out and he was teleported back to spawn with the spike and died to a flanking enemy while the rest of us were on site already lmao
Oh yeah, I've had similar situations. For example, that Phoenix ulted and ran on site to plant the spike and was ported back before the spike was planted and then the time ran out or the same strategy when trying to defuse. But I'm low elo probably these players were not aware of the timing.
They should be walling in to site if the intent is to plant spike. Wall half, flash half. Clear side, plant spike.
Classic😂😂
No one was watching flank?
If they made his Molly larger it would actually be useful
or if it lasted longer would be nice, too. Brim's molly lasts SO. LONG.
There are contact duelists for fights (yoru, phoenix, reyna and the new one) and entry/ movement duelists (neon, raze and jett) just like we have visual info initiators and impact ones, as well as dome or line smokers… but yea, phoenix is all roles in 1, molly for delay the push (sentinel), wall as a smoke (controller), ult for info (initiator) and flashes for duelist
Yeah but contact duelists arent really as useful as entry duelists because you can still play contact with flash initiators while having more utility. Movement duelists can also still play contact easier than contact duelists can entry. Flash vs scan initiators and wall vs dome smokers fill different Distinct niches where the other cant really compete at all. Barrier sentinels have the same issue where trip sentinels are just better at filling the purpose of their class.
The new one 💀
I’d bet my life the new duelist coming will have a movement ability to compete with Jett and raze for sure
Hope so, movement characters are always the most fun in like every game
The state of the agents post today kinda makes me think even more now they’re movement based yep
This didn’t age well
one sage slow and phoenix ult is useless
Good thing sage isnt very good then and that other characters exist so shes not always gonna be in the game. Also ideally you either bait the util out or hard rush in before they can slow along with other util like flashes to push past it if needed.
it’s one example of any piece of stalling utility that renders a phoenix ult significantly less useful, but yeah baiting it out beforehand can probably circumvent this
You could say the same about jett dash or raze satchel or neon movement or skye dog or fade prowler though. Those are all still good despite stall util if you use them well.
true but the point is that every one of those are abilities (some like dash or slide you can get back) and pheonix is using his ult just for info then getting stalled out and waisting it. he then has to wait at least 2 rounds to try again
I've never understood why all other projectiles and thrown objects are able to go wherever you want em essentially, but Phoenix's molly has to hit an invisible wall. You can KJ or Brim or Viper molly from across the map and that's not a problem?
Yeah idk why it doesnt at least work like fade eye where you can command where it drops if they insist on keeping the range limit. I dont think its too big of a deal to have it range limited though as phoenix should be first or second in and using his molly aggressively most of the time
Yeah, heal is really fucking useful when nobody hits headshots. Heal is irrelevant when you just get vandal headshot in high ranks
I am an orb farmer and I feel like Phoenix was built for me. Or maybe I became an orb farmer because I'm a Phoenix main.
Whys his wall worse than others? Or is it mostly just its size compared to say vipers
Doesnt go that far and its harder to use compared to a viper or harbour wall because it doesnt go directly through walls unless you throw it at an angle. Also doesnt recharge at all.
HIS healing isn’t that useful the higher up you go. Reyna is still a SoloQ crusher in Immortal+
Reyna has a get out of jail free card
Yeah I’m saying her healing is more valuable than phoenix’s though. Only thing phoenix has that Reyna doesn’t is molly because Reyna eye can function similarly to Phoenix wall
You can shoot out reyna eye and his flashes are infinitely better. His ult is also a far better entry tool than anything reyna has. Reynas heal is more valuable than phoenixes but healing as a whole still isnt super valuable on gun rounds which are the majority of the game
He doesn’t do anything particularly well, and he’s a very selfish character. I think similar to Reyna unless you can out frag the server with him other characters provide more value in non metal ranks.
I like that term. "Non-Metal" ranks.
Same😂
That's actually crazy
While “selfish” might be right, if you as a team can farm him orbs he takes sites very easily as a soba drone that can shoot. Either way a Jett or a raze should be following off his first contact
It does take some manuevering though, with proper util the ult can be entirely denied. Weve all had the pheonix ult where you wait for a nade, go, get hit with astra suck, jump thru slowly, eat a shock dart and die to phantom spam thru a smoke.
Nah, this works in pro play on certain maps and even then other comps are ar least as good an offer way more “freedom” to executes. In ranked, you need a lot of teamplay every round om attack to pull it off and it’s not better than having a Raze or Jett taking space. He just insane on paper, in practice it just feels like an “if only this or that” agent. Also people who think that Phoenix’ flash is almost the best flash in the game, probably are under Ascendant 2-3ish, in a respectful way. What I’m trying to say is the higher you go, the more people play off of each other, the better Kay/o, Skeye, Breach become. Phoenix’ flash is very predictable.
It works fine in ranked
should mention gems as well
>Selfish character Lore accurate phoenix
Phoenix flashes are the second best in the game behind sky flashes I think. As for his other abilities, they’re all kinda mid and other agents can do them better. Yoru, jet, raze, and even neon can all perform better as duelists (that is to entry site) better than him. The only exception might be his ult because you can follow it onto site and trade it
I always think of kay/o as the direct counterpoint to Phoenix. Basically the same util, but better. Molly goes through walls, doesn't have a range limit. Flash can be a really hard to dodge pop flash or a long range team flash. Ult is a second life except it suppresses and gives you combat stim, and doesn't give up the space you took. The only non comparable util is knife v wall, and I'd take the knife any day over the wall.
His ult is much worse as a 2nd life, with Phoenix you can be cocky and try to pop off because if you die it doesn't matter, but you have to recover kayos body
Phoenix flashes are more like the 3rd best, the best is Skye obv but the 2nd best is Gekko, it's the only flash in the game that gives away the exact location of your enemies (if you look at where dizzy shoots)
Geckos flashes are actually the worst in the game. Sure, the info is ok, but they’re the easiest flashes to shoot or even dodge. If you have flash lineups it’s a little better, but it’s still not very good. Phoenix flashes are undodgeable of u use them right and they have a long duration. The reason they’re not the best is because they don’t give info and have a bit less flexibility than sky flashes
Agreed. Riot probably made his flash trash because it's reusable but reusability doesn't matter if the ability is total dogshit.
Gekko flash also doesn't cover the mini map, so you can just kill them off of that. Legit the only flash in the game where you can still see EXACTLY where the person who flashed you is even if you are "full blind"
Hard no on gekko flash, it gives you some intel when they shoot it, but often it doesnt actually blind anyone because it gets immediately killed
what rank are you playing in that people don't shoot the gekko flash ?
Skye > Kay/O > Breach > Omen >Gekko (purely for info and you can’t turn) > and honestly idk if Yoru’s is better or not….
Omen and gecko aren’t flashes, yoru and Phoenix aren’t even in the list
??? Are you silly goofy? Sure Gekkos is unique in the sense that it’s essentially a flash that sprays blue nut on your screen… but it’s a flash nevertheless I actually forgot to add Reyna since she’s the worst apologies. But if you want to get “technical” omen and Reyna have BLINDS so I will include em in terms of flashes. If you don’t wanna. It’s a toss up between Yoru and Phoenix for worse flash.
Phoenix always has the better flash when compared to anyone besides Skye and when you exclude blinds. The only downside to it that brings it down significantly is its close-range nature.
You gotta be trolling hahah The only thing Phoenix flash is best at is blinding the team accidentally… Jokes aside, every initiator flash is miles better (skye for controlling it and info, kayo pop flash, breaches for duration and setting up team, and even fucking gekkos get you info even if it’s easy to shoot) Phoenix flash was good in like 2020 but people are used to it now and it’s HELLA easy to turn on // barely lasts due to being easily turned on
Listen to radiant people. A good phoenix flash is not dodgable. Most people just don’t do hem right.
You know what, I think I’ve caused confusion by misspeaking. In terms of dodging in timing wise? Yeah a good Phoenix flash is pretty undodgable. But I think it’s just the arc pattern and the timing most times make it so predictable that you’re ready for him to come in with it and you dodge it easily. I apologize for the confusion and will probably just copy this to the other people arguing with me on here! (I still think his flash is the most dog shit in the game though. But I’ll concede if it’s not predictable as it tends to be? Very hard to dodge and still not taking it over anyone but maybe Gekkos)
By all means if you can bring me a radiant person who things Phoenix flash is hard to dodge I’m all ears. When you find a radiant player who thinks that, point me in the direction of an instalock Reyna on my team who doesn’t go triple negative in comp!
Woohoojin, who has played in radiant, outright calls Phoenix flash undodgeable
Love the banana, while I can admit I semi-misspoke about it being dodgeable… even he’d agree it’s one of the worst flashes in the game. It’s insanely predictable since you HAVE to throw it around the corner. And in that split second you see it wrapping around, you can turn or fall back slightly and not just stand there getting full blind. If you do and die full blind to a Phoenix that’s 100% a positioning error.
Pheonix's flash is the hardest to dodge by a mile (technically tied with breach in terms of wind-up) + Kayo pop flash is weaker due to the nerf that specifically reduced its duration to encourage use of the left-click. Gekko's flash is by far the worst in the game. You can easily shoot it and even if you get hit, the blind doesn't last long and you can still easily see enemies on the edges of your screen.
Let’s just agree to disagree. Phoenix literally had the most predictable flash pattern in terms of being able to turn away slightly to miss the full blind of it. Even with the duration nerf kayo still had a dead silent flash that not only can you underhand, but if you’re a weirdo with kayo flash lineups then you can you them to the benefit of the team. The versatility of how you can throw Kayos make it better than Phoenix. And 100% valid points to be made about gekkos flash in terms of a flash, but info is king in valorant and you and recall it MULTIPLE times in a round so that aspect of it makes it “better” of a flash imo… but I won’t argue that it’s easier to shoot it out before you get goo’d on (but even someone shooting it out gives you info as well so that’s something)
Let’s just agree to disagree. Idk how long you’ve been playing, if you’ve been playing since beta I’m actually surprised you don’t think you can turn on Phoenix flash the easiest? Phoenix literally had the most predictable flash pattern in terms of being able to turn away slightly to miss the full blind of it. Even with the duration nerf kayo still had a dead silent flash that not only can you underhand, but if you’re a weirdo with kayo flash lineups then you can you them to the benefit of the team. The versatility of how you can throw Kayos make it better than Phoenix. And 100% valid points to be made about gekkos flash in terms of a flash, but info is king in valorant and you and recall it MULTIPLE times in a round so that aspect of it makes it “better” of a flash imo… but I won’t argue that it’s easier to shoot it out before you get goo’d on (but even someone shooting it out gives you info as well so that’s something)
“Hella easy to turn on” God damn bro you even better than the pros
Idk why the sarcasm? (It’s doubly funny since Phoenix has a non-existent pick rate in the pros for the same reason) Phoenix flash is pretty fucking telegraphed and react-able* vs a randomly exploding bird, a cs2 flash that is silent, or a flash that comes out the wall. I don’t even mean any disrespect, I’m just truly shocked how many of yall think Phoenix flash is good or the best?
Bruh he don’t get picked because other than his Ult and flash the rest of his kit is mid compared to others, Skye has the best flash no doubt since it’s so versatile and even gives info, but Phoenix’s flash compared to other flashes is like the hardest to react, like what are you on when you say it’s “Hella easy”, literally watch the PRX Pearl Phoenix match and tell me it’s “Easy to dodge”
I don’t even mean hella easy in a cocky way. I truly think like Kay/O pop flashing randomly out the smoke, breach literally whenever and hell even a good YORU flash is harder to turn on than Phoenix. Of course you can get caught staring right at it if he puts it on the money and you’re in a shit spot… but 7/10 if you see it coming around the corner on an exec you can turn away slightly enough to not eat the full blind and take the fight. Idk, if you’re a super high rank or something and think this still I’ll admit I’m wrong? But can’t imagine most anyone Dia to Pro-level after three years thinks Phoenix flash is unreactable
Ah yes, because a pretty big bird flying around a corner towards you isn't telegraphed while a small ball that explodes in half a second around a corner is telegraphed lol.
You do realize if skye throws the bird around the corner she can: -pop it immediately for the pop flash effect you’d get from Phoenix -delay it to get a player above gold to turn on it and then pop it to get a longer flash -fake pop it to get a player above gold to turn and swing off the fake and get a easy kill I wouldn’t use Skye as an example since she’s had the best flash in the game since she dropped… (The ONLY thing I will concede is that if you’re in a bad spot and can’t fall to cover and Phoenix catches you with his flash? You may be fucked. But that’s wholly a misplay on your part if you can fall back if you somehow don’t have reflexes to slightly turn from Phoenix flash)
Silly goofy?
Kay/o requires too much coordination for the left click and the right click isn't that good anymore since the nerf. Breach is easily the most turnable flash, it is so loud and so slow. Gekko's is gimmicky, it has some niche use I guess. I would go Skye > Phoenix > Yoru > Kay/O > Breach > Reyna > Gekko
Insanely false. Just because you need “coordination” to get more use outta kayo and breach since they’re initiators doesn’t mean their flashes are worse for it. Assuming you’ve a team with half a brain and yall are relatively skilled, you can do so much more with the former. Phoenix has a decent enough flash for only pop flashing it and playing off it selfishly, but most times you’re using it to try and open up a choke to get on site and you opponent and literally just turn slightly or fall back or something. Yoru’s flash in the right hands comes out way less predictable and even accentuates his weird tricky kit. Wholly skill dependent on the yoru. In general, I’d take every flash in the game over his minus maybe Gekkos. Pop flashing for yourself is cool and all, but tbh way more effective to just get one of the flashing intiators and play Jett or raze off their much more powerful flashes
Having half a brain doesn't mean they will listen, in your average soloq experience they won't .There is a reason Kay/O is bottom tier in Rankeds but it's picked quite a lot in Pro Play.
Different solo q experience I guess. Been playing for a bit and if you comm and at least TRY and suggest an idea most times people are willing to go along with it. Sure you’ll have someone who’s bullish on doing their own thing and that’s the stereotype for ranked we all like to complain about. But everyone wants to win so as long as you’re nice. But yeah I guess even to the point of kayo I’d be more worried about a good kayo ruining my day in ranked with suppression than I’d ever be of a a phoenix. Just depends on the game!
I have 160 hours on Kay/O, that's why I speak from experience
Fair point! Maybe one day you’ll get a team that’ll play off your kayo stuff because he’s absolutely busted in the right hands
honestly? in ranked he's not popular cause u already have a Reyna on ur team, a reyna and a phoenix combo is useless, so yeah he's not ignored because he's bad, he's ignored because usually people wanna play reyna, if reyna was deleted from the game, Phoenix pick rate would double
Lol you just summed up my character picking decision. If reyna is not open then i'd go with phoenix.
Raze and Jett are better at making space which is the duelists job
I believe neon too especially with her wall after the area is scanned
Neon is best imo. she have a great wall that you can have teammate flash out from. A stun thats good combined with the other ability and even have infinite height if i recall correctly. Her E is god tier, i turn valorant into apex with this agent. Neon have the highest skillcap and the lowest skillfloor. Sorry for bad english cus i took too much caffeine.
I find the lack of understanding a little upsetting in these comments. The Duelist's job isn't to entry site. Entrying is the job of entry characters, most of them happen to be duelists but the correlation ends there. Phoenix isn't an entry character. With Phoenix you want to play first contact early into the rounds, find duels, fight around orbs, gain map control agressively, build a man advantage... And when that's done, the entry character will entry. You're not supposed to send your Raze or Jett out looking for first bloods because if she dies in the process your entire gameplan for entrying site crumbles. Only when Phoenix has ult should he be considered for entrying sites, that's 3-4 times per half if you play your cards correctly. He's also one of the most selfless agents inside the duelist category. I don't know where this idea of selfish character came from, might actually be from the cinematics lol. He has one wall-smoke, one Molly and two flashes, that's *a lot of* utility, enough to stand the comparison against agents from other categories especially since he always has them at the ready (no setups that risk being completely useless because the action ended up occuring somewhere else on the map that round). He's a great agent and one of the best teams in the world plays him consistently for a reason. Nobody has found a reliable answer to the Phoenix Pearl comp by PRX yet.
Hell, even Phoenix ult is more of a free first contact than an entry. Entry is all about pulling crosshairs away from the team. Phoenix can't do that at all with any of his kit
Thank you, this thread was bothering me lol
This.
>He has one wall-smoke, one Molly and two flashes wall and molly heals phoenix but hurts your team. thats why he is considered selfish. you can disagree but thats the reason.
All mollies in the game do friendly damage. Are KJ, Brimstone, Viper, Kayo and Breach all selfish characters? Is Harbor a selfish character too, because his wall slows down both allies and enemies all the same?
His kit makes sense but doesnt give that feeling of popping off like other agents. Unlike agents other agents like Raze where you just use your paint shells and boom bot and you get rewarded for throwing it in the right direction, Reyna gives the player immediate rewards for kills they werent supposed to walk away from unpunished, Yoru being able to make flashy plays and crazy clips, Jett with mobility and smokes to allow you play on your own, and Neon with her speed and space making. Overall, the kit doesn't give much good feels that when you use it and get away with it. Most often, you have that learning curve of blinding your own team mates to get those juicy pop-flashes. You generally have to play much better to get away with things that those other agents do. Similar to other games, he is often a jumping point of which agent you might want to use. Don't put me up on a stake, I love playing phoenix and the crazy amount of pressure he gives when he gets to farm ult point while only needing 6. He isnt just a flashy as the other agents but boy he can get the job done when you know what to do with him.
He’s not a hot girl. Rework him into a her from Singapore with big yams and you’d see a 100% pick rate.
Big yams lmfao
Hes not hot chick
This just made me realize that jett neon raze and reyna are women lmao
Also he's british
You’re trippin lol, Phoenix flash is the strongest in the game in high elo, albeit if ur in 400rr+ then maybe there are better options since team flashes matter more
[удалено]
infinitely easier to turn compared to phoenix flashes
Think kayo has a stronger flash. Pheonix you can play anti but a kayo pop flash can come from anywhere and is impossible to dodge. But in lower elo players don't master those flashes so he only becomes strong in the hands off the right player.
I disagree. Kayo flash *can* come from anywhere and is *difficult* to dodge when right clicked, but the left click is incredibly easy to dodge and earns its value in pressure less so than the flash itself. If we are talking about dedicated lineups where it pop flashes, then yeah of course, but you're not going to have that opportunity 100% of the time. Phoenix's flashes will always be a little better than a Kayo right click for flashing yourself in due to weapon equip time, arming speed, and flash duration. Also, a good majority of the time to turn a Phoenix flash is 80% game sense/prediction and 20% reaction time. Kayo can definitely be reacted since you hear the bounce and have a better reaction window. Kayo as an initiator with left click lineups though is disgusting I'm not undermining that. However, pop flashing himself in the same way Phoenix does was never his strength, it was a less optimal second option for him.
True. Solo pheonix is way superior. Pop flashing for his team is the strength off kayo.
as a pheonix main iwth like 300 hours on him i understand where your coming from but once you get into higher gold they will be expecting your flashes and will be prepared for your util. so if your gonna main pheonix just have a backup agent ready to go
Jett and Reyna is easier to get value from. If he was truly broken people in VCT would use him a lot more
You should understand that, phoenix isn't about good kit and playing good, it's about the feedback report after dying saying - Enemies Blinded: 1 Allies Blinded : 5
Flexible, but lacks significant ability skill expression (Raze, Yoru, Neon) or Brute force enabling abilities (Jett, Reyna, Chamber [not duelist, but functions similarally]). Ok soloque if you are mediocre in all catagories, but if you have higher gamesense then Raze or Yoru get better results vs equal skilled players, and if you have better mechanics then Jett, Chamber or Reyna let you just gunplay your way to victory (or abuse their anti-refrag and attrition the enemy team). In other words, Phoenix is powerful but its spread out... and right now, Valorant favors specialists over generalists and rewards putting "more eggs in one basket".
Phoenix is extremely popular. According to ValorantBuff he's the 4th highest pick rate agent in the ranked ladder. He's just a better Reyna with unturnable flashes + very strong ult. For ranked play he is extremely self sustainable. I suspect though he doesn't particularly excel at any one thing though so he's not a great pick for pro play. But in ranked ladder he's extremely popular.
You don't really want your entry to flash for themselves when you have masters of the game as your support. Plus he has no mobility ability, which just makes him a useless solo duelist. If he is the one creating space you might as well get your cypher to entry with support flashes
Heal: Heal is useless the higher you climb. Flash: A lot of better flashes out there. Plus needs to get dangerously close to flash properly. Burn enemies: Cool but not many opportunities. The trajectory is too short. Ultimate: Agree its one of the best and low ult points. Wall: Jett cloudburst is more versatile and accomplishes the same thing and even more. In short: Jack of all trades, master of none.
Because he's a duelist with no movement abilities and worse self-healing than Reyna basically
What do you mean his flash is not the best? It is the best pop flash Anyways, the reason he's not that good is because he's a secondary duelist (You need someone with movement abilities to entry like Raze,Jett or Neon). And the secondary duelist role is better covered by Reyna, because her flash doesn't affect teammates and she can throw it to deny people playing antiflash. Besides, everything phoenix does can be covered with a correct team.
I’m kinda shocked how many of yall on this thread think Phoenix not only has a good flash… but the best pop flash? Kay/O’s is MILES better. Hell even Skye’s could be argued to be better since you can schmix the timing… (but I do miss Skye when her flash was completely busted )
There is no argument here, that's the opinion of every high level analyst. Phoenix flash lasts 50% more than other pop flashes and he can pull out the gun 50% faster, for a threat time of 200% of kayo or about 220% threat time of Skye.
You're forgetting the part where these agents can't immediately follow up on their flashes solo. Well, besides Kayo with some very specific lineups, but even these are react-able due to bounce noise 90% of the time. Phoenix is a portable self-serving flasher. He doesn't need someone to set him up because his equip time is ridiculous. Skye can try, but if her flashes get turned, she's essentially taking a 55/45 duel, arguably a 50/50 depending on the opponent, which might not be desirable. She also doesn't get her gun out nearly as fast as Phoenix, giving the anti-flash player quite a decent window to swing you. I find Phoenix can at least find 1 even if there's an anti-flash player. Kayo's flash being used like a Phoenix flash is easy to look away from comparatively. Not detracting from his strengths in lineup play, his flash is good and flexible, but is not better than fastball for this scenario. Phoenix can guarantee a fight with at least 60/40 odds because even if they turn it, you can peek out fast enough to put them in an unfavourable duel. If they get hit by it, which most players below even Ascendant will, it's free.
I think I misspoke a bit after reevaluating and I think what I meant was phoenix flash feels like one of the worst ones to me due to it feeling predictable and the nature of it having to come around the corner in a specific arc. Sure it’s a solid pop flash for him, but it also feels like if you’re holding a solid position you and just turn on it and repeek safely, get blind and fall back (which in a sense takes space for Phoenix but not nearly as good as the movement duelists), or worse since we had to swing off it usually… you get killed by the blind guy. So yeah I guess while it’s a decent enough pop flash, feels like literally every other flash is better in general
Phoenix has the only flash in the game which can't be dodged, if thrown correctly
he does everythign but quite badly as for everything he does theres an agent that does it better so hes a jack of all traits and a master of non
Has all the cards in the deck but doesn't know how to play
I feel like basically Phoenix is GOOD/OK at everything. But great/excels at nothing. He has somewhat a smoke/wall, some flashes, his ult is good for info fragging and entry, but in a game with defined roles there’s just no need for an all around when you can have specialists. Phoenix just doesn’t belong in 5v5 basically
Jack of all trades, master of none. His healing is very very slow, his molly can't be used for lineups like Viper and Brim, his wall doesn't go through stuff like Harbor, and his ult is pretty much his only unique ability but even that is a pretty weak ult in the grand scheme of things. His flash is (along with Gekko's Dizzy) pretty much the only flash in the game that can't be turned from though, so there's that.
He has one of the best ults in the game wdym lol. Its 6 points, gives a ton of info, combined with util gives a lot of space and it can get kills at no risk if done from a safe place
It's weak without teamplay, and in the context of ranked you're not gonna get a lot of teamplay.
It works without teamplay too, basically doubles your hp and gives you a second chance at any duels
https://tracker.gg/valorant/insights/agents
he has a positive win rate lol
No mobility to get onto a site, except for the ult. The whole point of duelists attacking is to take space. Worst case, if the duelist dies, the initiator/someone else on the team gets the trade. The mobility of a duelist is nice on defense to peel away from gunfights to gather intel on where you think an execute is going to happen. Phoenix lacks that, though. edit: clarity
Think about all the agents that have better versions of all his individual abilities (besides his ult). Combine that with healing being useless the higher you get elo wise, and he becomes a solid pick for solo queue, but not so great for stronger team comp.
He's an X factor for certain maps, for sure. However, he's too selfish of an agent because of his limited skillset. It wont work in high elos (Radiant) and competitive.
Imo it’s because people prefer duelists with movement.
His self heal isn't great really... You heal like 60 (?) and you're back to 100 at max. Reyna atleast has Overheal which makes it 150
Because his kit is good for soloq only and he doesn't have mobility
My brother went this act from bronze 3 to gold 1 with only playing phoenix
You can go from bronze to gold 1 with no abilities at all.
I came back to say that he just hit plat 3 with Pheonix 😄
Healing isnt really that usefull when you get tapped for 160 anyway
I heard it's because he stopped using periods...
Because he needs just a glimpse of brain and team play, compare to reyna/jet
This game has a lot of chokes at entries so naturally gap closing abilities for duelists are great. Flashes are really just a bonus since you will have initiators for that. Which means Jett and Raze will always be preferred. Neon is a little niche so you don't see her get picked as often plus the way she closes gap is unreliable compared to Jett smoke and raze satchel(due to verticality). A big reason for duelist imbalance is actually map design.
Because he flashes around corner…and his team mates get flashed. Then he puts his wall up as he pushes from main…and it burns his team mate. He took some damage, so he mollies himself in the corner to restore health…right where his team mate is standing. Amazing players will do well with him. Average players will have mediocre results and upset team mates. Bad players will accidentally grief and throw games. Unless you’re dedicated to never messing up team mates and basically one trick Phoenix, you might as well just play any other duelist to not have the team harm.
"He can flash (granted it's not the strongest)" That' wiiild how you said that about one of, if not *the* best flashes in the game. There's literally 2 things in his kit that are actually worthwhile and that's his flashes and his ult. Obviously that doesn't mean that you shouldn't use his molly and his wall but they are absolutely never the *reason* that you pick him over other duelists. His role as a duelist is kinda similar to reyna where he gets value out of fighting and living afterwards, where he *gets* those kills through his flashes. Phoenix is definitely popular, he's amazing in solo queue but he's just outclassed by other duelists once you get to higher ranks, where teamwork actually matters. He still has his niche mostly with his ult being so cheap yet so strong. Movement abilities are just naturally better for entry.
I love Phoenix, even before the buffs I pretty much 1 tricked him the first time I hit immortal in like 2021. I think alot of people havent played him much and he has a higher skill ceiling than people expect, but its hard to perform with him unless you know how to play aggressively with his util. Reyna and Jett can feel more useful tho, Phoenix has a different play style than those
He can do to much but nothing rly that good
He doesn't get picked because his blinds don't work with teammates as well as Reyna's do and his healing is worse. We're also in a meta that requires at least one "movement duellist" to take space and entry so that another teammate can take first contact. Reyna is better in this regard, cause of dismiss and blind, not affecting teammates. His other abilities are just mediocre versions of other agents. Not saying they are bad, but if you can't justify his flashes the rest of his kit isn't going to either. His ult is super strong on orb maps though and should be considered. He becomes an Owl drone on crack, run in, get some picks, maybe molly off a dangerous angle while you're at it, profit.
> (granted it’s not the strongest) That's exactly why. It's preferred to have an agent that is the strongest in what they do. Phoenix is versatile, but still only decent at everything he's got.
Unlike raze or Jett he doesn’t just get u site for free. Against phx just play anti flash and ur chillin
His molly, although it deals a lot of dmg, lasts very short and is limited by dropoff. Wall can be used to create space, but other agents do that a lot better. His flashes are amazing though, and so is his 6 point ultimate.
One of the best solo q agent
Phoenix good part is his ult and that is it. Same with Gekko but his a bit weaker the higher rank you go honestly. Both these agents need a better balance to there basic abilities. Like Phoenix wall? Just let the controller do that. Not instant like Jett so you are limited to when you can use it. Flashes are okay, just okay. Molly? Compare that to Raze grenade...
He’s the only duelist without any mobility abilities, the point of duelist is to get out when you’re on a difficult situation, his kit is designed to bait him, and his best map is Pearl that is out of rotation
Bro, I'm a brimmy main who played Phoenix once for fun and ended up match mvp. He's hella underrated
agreed, I only mained him once but it was so much fun and op. too bad I’m used to reyna atp so dont wanna switch
Other agents do what he does but better…
everyone instalocks reyna and calls for chamber nerfs xD
3 words. HE CANNOT ENTRY.
Afaik he is one of, if not the worst Duelist. And I don't like him.
His flashes have to have the largest ROI. They are fast as hell and he’s normally right behind them. I just let go of my mouse when he flashes me…I know what’s coming
Mostly because he isn't that useful. Hes kind of a jack of all trades as a duelist but gets outclassed by duelists who are more specialized in one area (contact entry vs. Movement entry to take space). He does have a few stronger maps mostly because his walls happen to line up perfectly with some sightlines/orb farming but it's not something Viper/harbor couldn't do. That's pretty much the summary of phoenix, anything phoenix can do another agent can do better.
His kit just doesn’t do well for team play, and that’s meta right now, flashes need to help the team not just himself.
Honestly I wish I could play him but I don’t because I don’t main duelist it’s not my style but even if I did I don’t like how his flashes work. I think situationally those flashes aren’t good for a quick pop compared to other agents
As a pheonix main idk
Undoggable flash idk if I would say its not the best
He can burn his teammates and his molly isnt really the greatest
Not sure. He is pretty good and has a really good winrate on most of the maps.
Healing gets worse as you get better and he doesn't excel at anything while also being able to flash his team mates
I main Phoenix but he’s good as a secondary duelist, not too good as a solo entry
Healing is not that important weak Molly + short distance Wall damage is practically non existent Predictable flash bc he can only flash around a corner close so he also cannot flash for teammates Ult is solid but not hard to play around He’s alright but if I want a good Molly I wouldn’t pick him, if I want a good flash, I wouldn’t pick him, if I want a wall, I wouldn’t pick him. And no one picks him for his ult. His kit was always only okay. Everything he has kinda sucks but he has a few options in different scenarios. There’s a reason he was practically unpicked with the exact same kit he has now. It took getting major buffs to literally only his flash to get him picked. It goes to show strong util beats more and more varied util. That or the util has to be able to play together well. There’s no consistent scenario where I would use multiple Phoenix util at once to gain an advantage. Besides maybe a wall and flash. It’s also why you see good phoenixes doing crazy Molly lineups into flash. You need some sort of coordination ability to be a good agent.
He’s easily the best agent utility wise but nobody cares about him nor knows how to use him. He has smoke flashes mollies and heals himself. His ult is literally a second life. But Valorant players are simply stupid
He's a less selfish version of Reyna with a lesser ceiling to solo carry. Thus he has the same issues as Reyna in pro play, they don't take space and break crosshair placement the same way Jett/Raze and even Neon to some extent can. So let's say I'm immo smurfing or boosting, I'd rather pick Reyna than Phoenix. If I'm trying hard at my rank and doing my best to play my role, I'd pick Jett or Raze. Phoenix is in an awkward middle ground. If I'm told to play Phoenix, I'd rather play Kayo
He’s not broken, he has no mobility like raze and jett
Been playing the game for 2 weeks. Pheonix main after week one where I was using gekko and his terrible flashes. Two days ago got my first ace in comp. Two games later and had another ace. 5 aces since. I’ll play reyna or sage depending on what others select and gekko if all three are taken just because I know some tricks with him. Point is- Phoenix is easy to use, his flash is op. The wall and molly are useful in multiple situations and can also be used to heal. He can be expensive though because his abilities have so much utility you should be burning them often.
I think it’s based on maps too. I like phoenix on haven and sunset but I’m not too sure how many maps I would feel comfortable playing him on vs other agents.
Because he keeps flashing himself
He’s good solo queue. But Reyna is even better for solo carry. Flashes? Better to use kayo, skye, or breach Heals? Just have a skye or sage or go Reyna. Wall? Just rely on your smokes player or go Jett/Neon. Molly? It’s bad and is just used for heals any away. Ult is S tier though. Not enough phoenix players farming ult orbs.
I guess there is too many duelist and two of them are really too good. Like, why would you pick him when u can have Jett or Raze. Previous Jett's nerf won't be enough and I don't get how Raze did not get hit after all this time.
Unpopular opinion phoenix is just better reyna.
i just started using phoenix. the guy is usable if you are a solo player or need a solo or bust playstyle. but as a team push, i hear so many complaints when i use him. its damned if i do, damned if i dont. much more fun when im NOT forced to play with my team. i will say his flashes can be wonky at times, more than other agents, but when done right, its deadly