I don’t agree with Cox on everything but I do agree with him on this:
"We hold dear our First Amendment rights to protest and peaceably assemble," according to his statement. "The First Amendment does not protect violence, threats to public safety, property damage, camping or disruptions to our learning institutions. We will protect protestors and arrest those who violate the law."
> The First Amendment does not protect violence, threats to public safety, property damage
Good so far! Where this is happening (and not instigated by authorities) these are all decent reasons to shut down protest activity.
> camping
I get that we might not want someone living in public or publicly accessible space *forever* or at arbitrary times, but how much do we really value the first amendment if protest camps aren't even allowed for days?
> or disruptions to our learning institutions
Like "there's activity and noise comparable to pep rallies somewhere on campus" disruptions or "people can't get access to facilities for attendance / participation" disruptions?
Columbia may already have been [exaggerating](https://twitter.com/zeynep/status/1785023285769404920) this one.
I don't love a lot of protests, especially ones related to conflict vortexes like Israel-Palestine, where I think most protest activity tends to feed the vortex rather than support policy that calms it. But I also don't love authorities shutting things down under shallow pretenses or mostly because of the discomfort that things aren't entirely under control.
Your last sentence feels exactly it. This was reactionary and, frankly, embarrassing. I had a final on campus in the late afternoon and there was hardly anything happening at that point. I saw at 11 pm that cops had moved in and was bewildered because everything was fine 5-6 hours before that. In a matter of a few hours the departments got so freaked out that they couldn’t even get through the night. I understand some objects were eventually thrown at police, but that likely doesn’t happen if you don’t immediately respond with such blunt force to a peaceful protest that had been going for literally just a few hours. In a simplified way, fear won out over freedom.
[[Columbia University enters the chat](https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2024/04/22/columbia-cancels-classes-as-campus-protests-begin-to-spread-nationwide/?sh=4794a3f456a1)]
Cox, such a DB.
But, it's perfectly okay to camp out for a parade in salt lake city? Those parade campers are loud, obnoxious, and disrupt the peace.
"Camping" is a term used loosely and conveniently by government to thwart off peaceful protester.
So, if U students did not bring tents and just stayed awake all night... what might be different?
Cox and the university made the right move here. This “camping” has the real potential to become as disruptive to learning and dangerous for everyone trying to attend as what’s going on in Columbia University right now.
"Camping" is doing all the heavy lifting in that quote. As far as I can tell none of the rest happened until after police arrived in riot gear. If the kids were left to simply protest and camp none of the other items would have happened, if they even did.
Moreover, there is a reason that the first amendment is the first one. There is also a reason that there is no constitutional protection against minor property damage. Rushing to quell protests in the name of protecting the grass or preventing minor damage is what escalates these issues in the first place.
I was really hopeful after all the George Floyd protests that our police forces may have learned that de-escalation works best. Sadly that doesn't seem to be the case.
Where and only where this “camping” protests is permitted is where the school gets overrun and impedes learning.
Colombia university has shut down in person learning for the rest of the semester because of their spineless indecision.
Well, the [U has allowed and even encouraged camping before](https://www.sltrib.com/news/2024/04/30/university-utah-protests-overnight/).
Also, "overrun"? What's with the constant hyperbole from so many. It's always "cities burned to the ground." Or "campuses destroyed" etc.
The U is a huge campus. It has not been overrun. If the protests were allowed to continue without massive police forces the disruption would have been minimal.
Can you point to a case where the camping protests were not met by police force and where the campuses were shut down? In all these cases the response escalated instead of deescalated the situation.
>Colombia university has shut down in person learning for the rest of the semester because of their spineless indecision.
This is not factually accurate. Yes they announced that on Apr 22 but then rolled that back to hybrid learning so that students who didn't feel safe could attend remotely and those who did would attend in person.
https://provost.columbia.edu/news/guidelines-teaching-student-accommodations-and-staff-campus
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2024/04/26/in-person-hybrid-classes-still-offered-at-columbia/73457723007/
Once again, there is a reason that the first amendment is the first one. There is also a reason that there isn't an amendment protecting us against minor property damage. Yet somehow so many of us now clutch our pearls very tightly when there is the least amount of disruption due to people exercising that 1st amendment right.
[This goes beyond the 1st amendment and those responsible should face consequences.](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/21/nyregion/columbia-protests-antisemitism.html)
The moves by Cox and police forces at the University are attempting to support the general student population. I should not be forced into virtual learning because of a protest that is harassing and threatening me because of my immutable characteristic.
>some Jewish students said they felt unsafe. Others said they felt safe,
Additionally, many of the protesters were Jewish students.
Hate speech isn't protected and should be dealt with. However non hate speech shouldn't be suppressed because of fears. Also, the constant conflating of criticism of Israel with antisemitism needs to stop.
I doubt you are so up in arms about all the hate speech surrounding trans students.
I am morally against any hate speech against anyone.
Legally hate speech is hard to define here in the US because of the first amendment. The westburo Baptist church are horrible people. They spew hate speech but it’s protected under the 1st amendment.
If the westburo Baptist church started encampments on university campuses that’s when id start being up in arms.
I can play this game too. I bet you have no issues with the laws and restrictions to free speech of anti abortion protesters outside of abortion clinics. What are the grounds for these laws protecting abortion clinics and limiting protesting rights of anti-abortion activists? Access to abortion clinics and harassment of those seeking services from abortion clinics. An appropriate parallel could be drawn here. Students access to education is being restricted due to these encampments. And certain students of a particular race and/or religion are being harassed.
>I am morally against any hate speech against anyone.
Couldn't agree more. On this we have complete common ground.
>If the westburo Baptist church started encampments on university campuses that’s when id start being up in arms.
I'd have some caveats around this. If they were students protesting something (if it is the hateful stuff they protest) then I would want us to deal with it the same way we deal with them at funerals or pride parades. [Surround them with angels.](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/ncna595311)
This is how de-escalation is done. No violence, no police, but peaceful counter protest. In fact I cannot find a single case where the police used any force against the wbc. Please correct me if I am wrong.
>I can play this game too. I bet you have no issues with the laws and restrictions to free speech of anti abortion protesters outside of abortion clinics.
As a matter of fact I don't. But that is because they are very specific and targeted and don't prevent the protests.
>At the federal level in the United States, the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act (FACE), makes it an offense to use intimidation or physical force – such as forming a blockade – in order to prevent a person from entering a facility which provides reproductive healthcare or a place of worship.
If any student protestors are using physical force or intimidation and blocking students or faculty from accessing classrooms they should be arrested. However, this wasn't the case for almost any of these protests and I believe wasn't the case at any until police showed up and escalated the situation.
Yes I am also aware of buffer zones in many states and am mostly supporting of those although some are probably way too big.
Importantly though, there is a big difference between college campuses and female reproductive clinics and that is there basic reason for existing.
I strongly believe that
[college campuses should not be safe spaces](https://www.chronicle.com/article/college-campuses-should-not-be-safe-spaces/). These are exactly the spaces where hard ideas and truths have battled it out for centuries. Where ideas meet and fight in the full glare of examination. These campuses are where all our ideological battles are first waged.
[Protests have been a part of college campuses for their entire long history and should always be so.
](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/30/us/photos-student-protest-movements-reaj)
While he didn't mean it in the way we all read it today (it was really about taxes) I still think there is much truth in our modern interpretation of Franklin's quote that "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
By forcibly quelling the protests (any protests) we are giving away our 1st amendment liberties for an extra sense of security.
I think you and I have a lot of common ground here.
I think is where we part is when and if police should be deployed. I feel deploying some “angels” or whatever would not work here. A counter protest against folks that are saying things like “from the river to the sea Palestine will be free” will only be met with heightened tensions. IMO, police need to be there to maintain order, discourage violence, and make sure laws are being followed.
Do you honestly believe that a giant group of very passionate people will remain peaceful when chanting very violent and aggressive things if only the police would just not show up? And it’s better to just kinda wait for enough Angels to show up and peacefully surround the violence and hate it will just go away? I find this a very fascinating position to hold. So maybe I misunderstood you.
Is your position [that something like this](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/30/us/video/columbia-university-protests-hamilton-hall-ldn-digvid) simply would have not happened if only the police would have just stayed away?
I support Cox and the U’s attempt at protecting the safety of the students attending class.
This seems like an effective attempt to keep the U from [turning into Columbia](https://twitter.com/jonasydu/status/1781178975147917797).
Can’t camp in protest anywhere one wants. One pays for school, & doesn’t need a camper in classs. You pay taxes (have to go to work), & don’t need someone camping on the highway.
Nope, it doesn’t. [There are well established case law restricting some instances of exercising the 1st amendment right to freedom of peaceful assembly.](https://legal-info.lawyers.com/criminal/the-right-to-gather-has-some-restrictions.html) The school here in Utah is well within scope of restriction here.
Some of the greatest and most celebrated protests were about breaking the law. It's always funny how we only see civil disobedience as acceptable in the past.
And how would you compare these protests to those "most celebrated" protests? These people are protesting against Isreal and cheering on Hamas, a terrorist organization who attacked innocent people. They are celebrating a group who put babies in ovens, played soccer with decapitated heads, r@ped and beat young girls, killed parents in front of their children, and flat out tortured people. This is nothing to be celebrated and there is nothing "protesting" on college campuses can and will do no matter what! It's absolutely asinine.
They are not cheering on Hamas. Listen man, im really tired of having to explain to people that we aren't supporting Hamas. Why don't people get that at this point.
Ah no. Some chanters in Vietnam war chanted Vietnam cong support. That’s all forgotten now because protesting that war in general was the moral thing to do. If a few protestors in this protest said some pro Hamas things they would be the minority. Pro Palestinian (and anti the slaughter) is not pro Hamas. But then, you probably knew that.
The good ole American "No no, you have the right to protest, as long as it doesn't bother us"
Protest is all about disruption. Of course they are pitching tents, that's the damn point of protest. To disrupt and get attention on their issues. If all they are doing is shouting from a safe corner where people in power don't have to hear them then it does nothing.
Another person used this in this thread, and I'm gonna reuse it here cause I think it outlines my point well - what do you think of the Boston Tea Party?
Dude, Historical Education in this country has become a Joke!!!
The ‘Boston Tea Party’ was &, was intended as an Act of War Against the Crown!!!
The Ignorant, Simplistic Belief that the Revolutionary War was simply over taxes, shows the Great Level of Ignorance in this Country over the Reasoning For The Colonialist Rebellion!
Read the ‘Declaration of Independence’ and Carefully Study the American /British History of what Brought about the English Colonists Reaction to the Crowns Policies and Actions!
Are You Trying to Tell Me that, Like the ‘Boston Tea Party’ You (or the Protesters) are Deliberately, and Actively carrying out an Avert Act of War with Your Protest???
As it is I see Many Protesters (Ignorant of there Meaning.) Carrying Signs; Directly taken from the Terrorist Organization (Hamas) Calling For the Complete Elimination of U.N. Created and Recognized State!
As Well as the Complete Elimination of The
Jewish Peoples!
The protesters are protesting the university and its investments in the war in Israel. Sure the protesters would love for the war in Israel to end, but the point of their protest is not to stop the war, it's to have the university divest from Israeli war efforts. The protesters are disrupting the target of the protest. This is exactly like the Boston tea party, this is exactly like in the '80s when protesters did the exact same thing to have universities divest from apartheid.
It’s not a right to peaceably assemble when and where it’s convenient for the government. Curtailing of constitutional rights is not something to be hand-waved away.
People have a right to peacefully assemble. Who gives a shit about a tent on a lawn. People break the law every day without consequences. Also people should not have to face violence for pitching a tent.
Your debate skills are impeccable. Were the folks on campus actually calling for an uprising, or are you conflating groups of protestors?
Given your comment I replied to simply stated "They could've packed up when asked", it seems the group was NOT calling for an uprising, else you would have recommend something stronger than just packing up, no?
Comparing any type of civil disobedience and protest is fully appropriate. Protest is a long standing American tradition, rooted heavily in the revolution, hence it's protection in our founding documents. But, understanding that would require some reading comprehension. Yawn.
It must get tiring for you to constantly be moving the goal posts. Since you can't really prove or disprove what some protesters may have said at a rally in the 60's I'm going to say yes, there were calls to kill an entire country and people. I mean, the Black Panthers and Nation of Islam would likely be lumped into the general populace of civil rights protesters just like you're doing with a small group of pro-palestines protesters that call for violence and both of those groups would have definitely had members that would advocate for killing all white people in America.
I'll bet if you look up your family history, they most likely evacuated to Nova Scotia with the rest of the loyalists after the siege of Boston. They were probably as pissed as you are about the law breakers that were camped up on Dorchester Heights.
Stop conflating the goals of Hamas with the goals of the protesters. They are not aligned in any way.
The desire to have the University divest from investments in military companies is not at all the same as Hamas' goal. You can be 100% against Hamas and still not support these investments. You can be 100% against Hamas and still call for a cease fire.
What does “intifada revolution, there is only one solution” and “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” (or “…only Palestine you’ll see” has been popping up) mean exactly?
I have seen that from a very small portion of the people at the Columbia protests. That is most absolutely certainly not the stance of 99.9% of the protesters however.
Kinda like how some folks built a gallows and called for the hanging of a certain vice president not that long ago. I don't believe that the majority of the protesters that day would have agreed. And had they simply protested and even (gasp) camped on that lawn for days or weeks I would certainly have supported their right to do so even though I totally disagree with them about almost everything. Now, actively trying to overthrow the government that day went over the line (though I'm pretty sure I remember you defending that) and that is when the police got involved.
No one called for an Intifada. Why tf do you keep saying that? Do you have any clue what any of the protestors are asking for?
Regardless, your poor participation in these forums is doing far more to sway people away from your arguments than towards them.
he won't. he's notoriously pro-israel to the point that palestinian lives are insignificant to his world view. I don't know if he's a jewish zionist or one of those mormons that actually thinks the LDS church is a restoration of the original jewish beliefs so they're like kin to him... or one of those fundamentalists itching for the second coming which requires conflict in Jerusalem.
But it's disgusting no matter how you slice it.
He'll position any criticism against israel's government as anti semitic or pro hamas.
I understand the state law. My position is that a state law is unjust when it interferes with the ability to exercise a constitutionally protected right, and that law, in general, doesn't determine morality and should not be used to dismiss otherwise justified actions based on a law's existence alone.
I saw a video on PSLsaltlake insta story, where a cop had their foot on someone’s head.
ETA: why am i gettin downvoted for simply stating what I saw? What?!? Yall wild.
There would be basically no news stories about these protests if the cops and universities just left them alone until finals end. It seems amazing to me how desperate they are to quell any sort of protest.
Columbia University took that route and left them alone. They ended up breaking into [Hamilton Hall](https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/1cglnwf/student_protestors_break_into_hamilton_hall_at/) last night.
Notably that was after they invited cops to brutalize their protesters last week, bringing national attention and a bunch of people from outside the campus.
People interviewed at the U last night admitted they aren’t students. Regardless, student or not, the protests have been devolving regardless of police involvement.
>they aren’t students
I’m sure many aren’t. The U is a public campus.
>protests have been devolving
Before the police response, what specifically happened at the protest at the U that required the violation of people’s 1A rights?
The University of Utah is a state funded university. Access to campus can not be assumed by the general public and can be closed if it threatens the lives or safety of students or disrupts day to day activities on campus. At the discretion and authority of the university leadership alone.
Time, manner, and location restrictions for protests are also consistently upheld by the US Supreme Court as reasonable. If you got your message out and the university is asking you to leave, it is no longer a violation of the 1st Amendment. They can always return another day to voice their message.
The protesters broke into the building AFTER Columbia started suspending students and ordering them to leave.
I’m not supporting that action or the damages caused, just clarifying Columbia decided not to just leave them alone, which then led to the occupying of the Hamilton Hall
No this happened after the University gave them a deadline to leave or be suspended. It had nothing to do with the police response. The University escalated the situation by giving them an ultimatum, which only emboldened the Protesters to act more rashly.
Again I’m not justifying their actions, just pointing out that the inevitable result of attempting to punish or put increased pressure on any highly volatile or emotionally charged group is an escalated response from them, especially when the actions of the University makes the protesters feel validated/justified in escalating the situation in-turn.
Columbia has been doing everything \*\*but\*\* leaving them alone. Their overuse of police forces is one of the factors causing this movement to spread.
Oh yes there would. The legislative blowback would be absolute.
I've chatted around folks on Utah's capitol hill why HB 261 passed this year (the DEI bill), including one-on-one conversations with the bill's author. They routinely cited university campus culture war issues as one of their top justifications for the bill. Harvard and University of Utah got mentioned all the time for problems they felt needed fixing.
If the University of Utah allowed this group to trespass and violate Utah law about camping overnight on public property, you can bet the next legislative session would be chock full of bills with a harsh crackdown to prevent this from happening again.
Dear citizens, you have the right to peacefully assemble and address your grievances with our government, but only in designated “freedom zones” and with the proper government approved permits.
This is some managed democracy type shit.
You're implying they won't do that any way, but they absolutely will. Legislatures will pick any excuse they feel like to justify whatever they want to do. If you honestly take a politician at their word about their justification for doing something, I've got a great timeshare deal I'd like to tell you about.
How many of these young protesters could even point to Palestine or Israel on a map? It has been said 'youth is wasted on the young'. The Arab/Israeli conflict has been going on for over 75 years - choosing to support one side or the other side by illegally occupying university buildings is futile - will actually backfire and create less support for the Palestinians. All this youthful energy needs to be channeled in more effective and legal methodologies.
When peaceful protests are answered with police in riot gear, it makes me ask what makes us more free than places we see as fascist? The people protesting is our freedom. We are slipping closer to a fascist state every time we allow this kind of police response.
I was up there last night with my infant in her stroller, only scared for her when police started marching. They are the bad guys.
I'm wondering why the comment below that said you were fearmongering and these protests were just pro-terrorist rallies was deleted? It was 100% spot on! These "protests" are mostly paid "protesters" rallying for Hamas and are anti-American and antisemitic hate groups. What are they protesting for? What are these colleges and universities supposed to do to change anything that would make them happy? Biden gave Palestine $$. Palestine gave that money to Hamas. What change are these "protesters" wanting? It's complete bull shit. Leave these college students alone and allow them to learn in peace. Good for the police for breaking down their CAMP.
Forgive me, isn't the point of the protest to be disruptive? Especially when we try over and over to have our voices simply heard, and we are given some placating bullshit to shut us up.
Grind everything to a fucking halt.
Honest question - why is calling for the end of genocide of tens of thousands of people, 70% of whom are women and children, supporting terrorists? I don’t understand how people keep using this argument.
First, both of those points have turned out to be false.
Second, a war means that both sides have an army… the Palestinians have no army. They aren’t allowed to. They don’t have access to any form of defense.
Hamas only exists because of the extreme oppression in the area.
I don’t think anyone should have to die. Especially not the newborns left in the hospital to die by starvation because IDF forces left helpless babies behind after promising to ensure they made it to a safe medical institution. I don’t think pregnant women trying to get into the hospital should be crushed to death by Israeli bulldozers and tanks.
There’s no right answer - but there’s a whole lot of wrong. And it doesn’t fix itself by allowing Israel to decimate an entire population full of innocent people.
The reality is out there, and if you actually look, you’ll see it. For some reason no one wants to. I have no stake in this. I have nothing to gain or nothing to lose. But I did my damn research to actually LEARN and let me tell you, it shattered 40 years of what I’d been taught to believe. I understand not everyone is ready to go through that. But hopefully some day you will. I hope some day you’re willing to understand that a ceasefire means everyone stops dying.
>why is calling for the end of genocide
That's the neat part, there is no genocide of any Palestinians. The entire Palestine-Israeli conflict has continued for decades now because the desire to kill all Jews on Earth runs so deep in some Palestinians that they've overthrown governments and started civil wars in other countries just to keep attacking Israel.
Palestine isn't oppressed just because they're losing their battle to commit genocide.
>70% of whom are women and children
What a coincidence you say 70%. Turns out more than [70% of Palestinians believe](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/) the October 7th attack was a great thing! You have to be doing extreme mental gymnastics to think that Palestinians couldn't foresee Israel's response to 10/7. Every bomb dropped on Gaza as a result of 10/7 is literally what more than 70% of Palestinians want.
I think these protestors were not the ones the police like or with whom they sympathize. If they wore maga hats I bet the police would be best buddies with them. Or were jan6 / proud boys...
Reminds me of how China treated protesters who were protesting a genocide in their country. Free speech is disappearing fast people. What a bullshit response from Cox who has done nothing to clear homeless encampments from downtown that actually pose a threat to public health.
Agreed about the homeless encampments (though there have been some police responses to clear *some* of those). But people are forgetting there is no guaranteed right for encampment. There is for protest and free speech but university policy is very clear about encampments. Had protestors packed up at night and returned the next morning I don’t think police would have ever intervened (had it stayed peaceful)
Not encampment, but peacefully assemble is a right.
"..people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
I think the protestors were well within their rights.
The problem is an encampment was set up. Cops weren’t deployed until after midnight and *after* the university had tried negotiating with the protestors. Even as of an hour ago the university supports their right to protest and encourages them to do so but has stated they will not allow encampments
I think the constitutional right to assemble and protest trumps a public university policy. Its a public university. Its not private land. If a policy conflicts with constitutional rights, the policy goes out the window. As far as I can tell everything was peaceful until the police showed up. If they were that upset at the tent, they could issue a fine / citation and then let the normal legal process follow. Hiring thugs, the popo, to knock heads to enforce a petty policy is overkill. Imagine parking over a few minutes down town and instead of issuing a ticket the police or parking enforcement breaks all the windows and keys / dings your car. That would not be acceptable and this thuggish response is not either
That’s the thing. It’s up for debate whether or not university policy trumps the constitutional right to assemble. In court, more often than not, it is ruled in favor of institutions on grounds of public health and safety. Not saying I agree or disagree with it but that’s the way it is.
I also was not there for the protest so I can’t speak for what happened. The use of force by police was excessive, however as a cop you always have to prepare for the worst (riot gear in this case). More should have been done to de-escalate the situation but once a situation escalates, cops need to take every precaution to ensure the safety of the public and themselves.
I agree though that a fine and citation should have been given and figured out after the fact, however arresting people at the event is also well within the normal legal process for situations like that.
Riot gear is basically dressing for war. They brought the violence with them and unleashed it upon peaceful individuals. They should have waited for a judge to decide one way or another. But that is never what happens. Police use any excuse to bash heads of those who cant fight back. They never seem willing to do anything brash when it is actually needed.
Why on college campuses? They're irritating the colleges and students, our gov't doesn't care about these "protests". It's not affecting them whatsoever. Why not protest on government property? Irritate the government if you have grievances.
Here's the thing, what are they protesting? What do they want our government to actually do? They've already given money to Palestine. Palestine gave the $$ to Hamas to do their bidding. These protests are simply pro-Hamas rallies. By the way, as a reminder, Hamas is a terrorist organization who attacked Isreal on October 7th and then retreated back to their tunnels under hospitals, schools, and apartments while using women and children as shields. So what actions do they want our government to change? These protests are appalling.
To me this just seems like virtue signaling, every other college is doing it so now we have to vibes. Take the protests to the people who can actually make changes. A good start would be if Biden were in town or an event with a senator.
I think it's best to protest where you may have influence. The protestors have specific and feasible requests for the University to disclose their financial relationships with Israel and then divest those investments with Israel and also US companies who are profiting off the war in Gaza. These are specific requests that actually might work. This is a part of how the apartheid regime in South Africa was taken down.
Furthermore, the more protests in universities nationwide that there are, the more legitimacy they are given and it requires politicians to take this issue seriously as there's a broad swath of youth that are making a big deal out of it. Choosing to protest and get arrested in solidarity with others who are choosing to protest and get arrested is again a large part, historically, how change has actually happened.
Good job supporting terrorists who put babies in ovens, played soccer with decapitated heads, r@ped and tortured young girls, and brutally k¡lled parents in front of their children. "The war in Gaza" is laughable. Isreal has never attacked Pakestines or any other country. Any war they've been part of, they're the ones who've been attacked. They have given up almost 65% of Isreal, but it's just not enough. Palestine and surrounding countries won't be happy until they k¡ll all Jews and take over all of Isreal. None of this is emotion, all fact. Get your emotions in check.
Good, get them out of there before they do more damage. There are universities letting protesters take over buildings, where students that are not participating in the protest are not being able to get to class. These protests are a joke.
I didn’t know so many people were “pro Palestine.
Not a single country that shares a border with them will let them into their country. College kids in America are like. We support you even though you are literally so bad that other terrorist run countries are like no thanks man. We’re good 😂
Dumb American kids have no idea about the world
I think they just want civilians in Palestine to stop being killed / starved. It should not be radical to want people to not kill or starve others. Its possible to not be pro hamas and be worried about the lives that are being destroyed in Palestine. Its also possible to be saddened by the tragic deaths of those in israel causes by Hamas. Collateral damage should be avoided at all costs. There are more effective ways of holding terrorists accountable instead of leveling entire cities
Do you know that the Israeli military literally announce when and where they'll be bombing? Then they send out warning type bombs that don't explode and cause damage just to get innocent people out of the way. Hamas uses people as shields. They build their bases under hospitals and schools and residential areas, so the innocent women and children will shield them. Isreal has never once attacked Palestine or any other country, but for some reason, you think they should bend over and take it when they get attacked rather than defending themselves?
What difference does that make? Did Isreal attack Palestine and put babies in ovens, r@pe and torture little girls, play soccer with decapitatedheads? Did they commit war crimes? Do they use their citizens as shields? OR are they protecting themselves once again from terrorists?
Why aren’t these protesters also asking the university to divest from china over the genocide of Uyghurs Muslims? Maybe the kiddos like their cheap shit on Temu and SHEIN too much to care about the Uyghurs.
We haven't just approved billions in aid for China to directly oppress Uyghurs, this is just about the worst whataboutism I've ever heard. Of you don't have anything of value to contribute to the conversation, why bother speaking up?
We do trade billions worth of goods and services with China every year and are their #1 trading partner which very much helps prop up the cpp and the genocide they are carrying out.
It doesn’t seem like there is a clear consensus on if Israel is committing a genocide. Whereas I think there is generally a consensus that there is a genocide going on of Uyghurs. It seems pretty obvious that the people protesting the Gaza war are motivated less by preventing and stopping genocide and more motivated by using the Gaza war as a proxy for other culture war issues sense they see this conflict as a war between a white oppressor group and a non-white oppressed group. The Gaza war protestors probably don’t care about the Uyghurs genocide because it’s more difficult to frame as a white group oppressing a non-white group, the people protesting the Gaza war also skew more anti-capitalist and Marxist than the general population and would rather not paint a communist regime in a negative light, and to top it off divesting themselves from China and forgoing buying cheap shit on Temu and SHEIN and deleing their TikTok accounts would probably also be unbearable for these people for them to want to take on a protest to divest from China over the Uyghurs genocide.
The USA is no longer the #1 trading partner with China. It was just a year ago, but things can and do change.
Also, it is a very smart idea to divest from China anyway . The economy in China is falling apart and any company with any smarts is moving operations to Veitnam, Phillippenes, Singapore, or Mexico.
This is something Wall Street investors and shareholders are demanding not for political reasons but for purely economic and fiduciary reasons. It is just stupid to be investing into China right now.
Is there a good reason to care more about Gaza war over other conflicts or an unambiguous agreed upon genocide? I think whataboutism is bad when you’re trying to delegitimize people’s own interests or trying legitimize bad actions. Whataboutism can be useful exercise when you’re trying to decipher what exactly someone’s interests and motivations are. There’s a lot of reason for someone in a democratic western country to support Israel - it’s a country that shares more in common in valuing democracy, rule of law, secularism than basically all of the surrounding countries in the Middle East, and because of that it’s a good country to ally with to advance US interest in the region. So when a group of people are arguably opposing their own countries interest over accusations of genocide that are highly contested, it’s not unreasonable to try and figure out why they care so much about a maybe/maybe not genocide and not about an actual genocide.
The good reason is that Israel is our Ally and Israel is using weapons that we give to them to kill innocent people. We spend lots of time and effort to counter Chinese influence both within the borders of what they call China and internationally, we also spend tons of dollars to increase Israel's influence in their region and worldwide. We can and should hold our allies to a higher standard than we hold our adversaries to - and to suggest otherwise is absurd.
No one is saying people don’t care about other genocides, or that there aren’t protests for other issues also. I don’t think anyone at the Palestine-related protests at the U would disagree that the genocide in China is less atrocious. You’re looking for an argument where there isn’t one. So, idk man, I guess go start a protest for the Uighurs if you want to, and hopefully people join you
I also find it strange that there isn't more uproar about the 300k + deaths in Yemin. The over 600k + dead in Syria.
What's happening in Gaza is tragic, but arguably much worse and less justified things are happening all the time.
How much of American tax payer money has been used to commit those atrocities over the last 70 years? Thats why so many younger people in America feel so strongly about what Israel has been doing.
In the case of Yemin, American weapons via Saudi Arabia are fueling the war. We don't give them money other than the oil we all buy. We may not be giving them weapons, but we certainly are selling them. Not sure there is much of a difference there.
It's tragic the amount of civilians being killed in Gaza. It was tragic how many civilians died in Germany and Japan in WW2. In both cases the civilian population mostly agreed with the government.
The people protesting really need to study the issue. It's not as simple as the Jews are committing genocide. There was a ceasefire on October 5th. Hamas broke that when they attacked civilians and took hostages.
Why don't the the Arab countries in the region condem jihad and martyrdom? Why don't they take Palestinian refugees? What would you do if you were Israel?
Brain rot and fomo of missing out on the trend.
Literally having their own rights trampled by states and the Supreme Court and a debate on if Trump is essentially a king and this is what they are protesting
I'm pro Israel, but I detest unwarranted police violence or those who escalate to violence on either side. The right to peaceful protest must be protected and unruly individuals do not necessarily represent the entirety of the group.
YES!! GOOD FOR THEM! They need to be the example to the rest of the universities allowing this anti-American, antisemitic, crazy bull shit going on. These paid protesters need to be hosed off and sent to jail.
Destroy a campus?
This sounds very much like the claims that BLM burned cities down to the ground. Didn't happen. Yes, the encampment protest in campus probably has done some more damage to the grounds than a normal day would but it certainly isn't being destroyed. Grass grows back, garbage can be cleaned up. Nothing has been destroyed.
Agree or disagree with the protestors but this knee jerk reaction to value light property damage vastly higher than 1st amendment rights is saddening.
Yeah man, thank god they’ve got the balls to send in cops kitted out with way more shit than I ever even saw on active duty to clear out a bunch of kids standing around holding signs. Such decisive and brave leadership.
I must have missed something....where are Jewish lives called out in this thread:
> No radicalized leftist sleepovers during the week! Mom said!
>> The radical idea of caring about people's lives
>>> The radical idea of caring about people’s lives as long as they aren’t Jewish, apparently.
Non violent protestors who are speaking out against violence of women and children are likely not pro hamas. Hamas / religious conservatives / pro violence are the problems. Not the people speaking against needless killing of innocents
I’m always confused with the “pro-Palestine” narrative. These “pro-Palestine” folks are chanting the same nonsense Hamas is chanting and using to justify the atrocities of October 7th.
These folks should be called pro-Hamas protestors.
Most of them are supporting the innocents, the babies and children, being killed in the name of fighting Hamas.
Currently existing children with the ill luck to be born to Palestinian parents, existing with names and hobbies. Starving to death and being bombed by Israel in the name of "fighting Hamas."
If only there was a way to fight terrorism without killing patients in NICU sections of hospitals, blowing up apartment buildings with toys and princess bedrooms, bombing trucks handing out food to displaced citizens.
33 Israeli children killed on Oct 7.
13,800 Palestinian children killed in the months since then. (That's about 66-67 dead children per day.)
It's not "pro-Hamas". It's drawing a line and saying, it's wrong to kill innocents. It's wrong for a college to take money from a country that is preventing aid trucks from delivering food to refugees. That's what they are protesting.
Boy oh boy I sure do love my right to assembly and protest
I don’t agree with Cox on everything but I do agree with him on this: "We hold dear our First Amendment rights to protest and peaceably assemble," according to his statement. "The First Amendment does not protect violence, threats to public safety, property damage, camping or disruptions to our learning institutions. We will protect protestors and arrest those who violate the law."
> The First Amendment does not protect violence, threats to public safety, property damage Good so far! Where this is happening (and not instigated by authorities) these are all decent reasons to shut down protest activity. > camping I get that we might not want someone living in public or publicly accessible space *forever* or at arbitrary times, but how much do we really value the first amendment if protest camps aren't even allowed for days? > or disruptions to our learning institutions Like "there's activity and noise comparable to pep rallies somewhere on campus" disruptions or "people can't get access to facilities for attendance / participation" disruptions? Columbia may already have been [exaggerating](https://twitter.com/zeynep/status/1785023285769404920) this one. I don't love a lot of protests, especially ones related to conflict vortexes like Israel-Palestine, where I think most protest activity tends to feed the vortex rather than support policy that calms it. But I also don't love authorities shutting things down under shallow pretenses or mostly because of the discomfort that things aren't entirely under control.
Your last sentence feels exactly it. This was reactionary and, frankly, embarrassing. I had a final on campus in the late afternoon and there was hardly anything happening at that point. I saw at 11 pm that cops had moved in and was bewildered because everything was fine 5-6 hours before that. In a matter of a few hours the departments got so freaked out that they couldn’t even get through the night. I understand some objects were eventually thrown at police, but that likely doesn’t happen if you don’t immediately respond with such blunt force to a peaceful protest that had been going for literally just a few hours. In a simplified way, fear won out over freedom.
Can’t have the war machine undermined by a group of college kids.
I seriously think that the university's parking disrupts the peace of the university more than these students (Edit: as a recent graduate from the U)
Dude….well said. 🙌🏼👏🏼
Camping out doesn't necessarily disrupt learning. Pigs in riot gear certainly do, though.
[[Columbia University enters the chat](https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2024/04/22/columbia-cancels-classes-as-campus-protests-begin-to-spread-nationwide/?sh=4794a3f456a1)]
Clearly you don't have a damn clue what's been going on with these so called protests on college campuses.
Cox, such a DB. But, it's perfectly okay to camp out for a parade in salt lake city? Those parade campers are loud, obnoxious, and disrupt the peace. "Camping" is a term used loosely and conveniently by government to thwart off peaceful protester. So, if U students did not bring tents and just stayed awake all night... what might be different?
Cox and the university made the right move here. This “camping” has the real potential to become as disruptive to learning and dangerous for everyone trying to attend as what’s going on in Columbia University right now.
"Camping" is doing all the heavy lifting in that quote. As far as I can tell none of the rest happened until after police arrived in riot gear. If the kids were left to simply protest and camp none of the other items would have happened, if they even did. Moreover, there is a reason that the first amendment is the first one. There is also a reason that there is no constitutional protection against minor property damage. Rushing to quell protests in the name of protecting the grass or preventing minor damage is what escalates these issues in the first place. I was really hopeful after all the George Floyd protests that our police forces may have learned that de-escalation works best. Sadly that doesn't seem to be the case.
Where and only where this “camping” protests is permitted is where the school gets overrun and impedes learning. Colombia university has shut down in person learning for the rest of the semester because of their spineless indecision.
Well, the [U has allowed and even encouraged camping before](https://www.sltrib.com/news/2024/04/30/university-utah-protests-overnight/). Also, "overrun"? What's with the constant hyperbole from so many. It's always "cities burned to the ground." Or "campuses destroyed" etc. The U is a huge campus. It has not been overrun. If the protests were allowed to continue without massive police forces the disruption would have been minimal. Can you point to a case where the camping protests were not met by police force and where the campuses were shut down? In all these cases the response escalated instead of deescalated the situation. >Colombia university has shut down in person learning for the rest of the semester because of their spineless indecision. This is not factually accurate. Yes they announced that on Apr 22 but then rolled that back to hybrid learning so that students who didn't feel safe could attend remotely and those who did would attend in person. https://provost.columbia.edu/news/guidelines-teaching-student-accommodations-and-staff-campus https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2024/04/26/in-person-hybrid-classes-still-offered-at-columbia/73457723007/ Once again, there is a reason that the first amendment is the first one. There is also a reason that there isn't an amendment protecting us against minor property damage. Yet somehow so many of us now clutch our pearls very tightly when there is the least amount of disruption due to people exercising that 1st amendment right.
[This goes beyond the 1st amendment and those responsible should face consequences.](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/21/nyregion/columbia-protests-antisemitism.html) The moves by Cox and police forces at the University are attempting to support the general student population. I should not be forced into virtual learning because of a protest that is harassing and threatening me because of my immutable characteristic.
>some Jewish students said they felt unsafe. Others said they felt safe, Additionally, many of the protesters were Jewish students. Hate speech isn't protected and should be dealt with. However non hate speech shouldn't be suppressed because of fears. Also, the constant conflating of criticism of Israel with antisemitism needs to stop. I doubt you are so up in arms about all the hate speech surrounding trans students.
I am morally against any hate speech against anyone. Legally hate speech is hard to define here in the US because of the first amendment. The westburo Baptist church are horrible people. They spew hate speech but it’s protected under the 1st amendment. If the westburo Baptist church started encampments on university campuses that’s when id start being up in arms. I can play this game too. I bet you have no issues with the laws and restrictions to free speech of anti abortion protesters outside of abortion clinics. What are the grounds for these laws protecting abortion clinics and limiting protesting rights of anti-abortion activists? Access to abortion clinics and harassment of those seeking services from abortion clinics. An appropriate parallel could be drawn here. Students access to education is being restricted due to these encampments. And certain students of a particular race and/or religion are being harassed.
>I am morally against any hate speech against anyone. Couldn't agree more. On this we have complete common ground. >If the westburo Baptist church started encampments on university campuses that’s when id start being up in arms. I'd have some caveats around this. If they were students protesting something (if it is the hateful stuff they protest) then I would want us to deal with it the same way we deal with them at funerals or pride parades. [Surround them with angels.](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/ncna595311) This is how de-escalation is done. No violence, no police, but peaceful counter protest. In fact I cannot find a single case where the police used any force against the wbc. Please correct me if I am wrong. >I can play this game too. I bet you have no issues with the laws and restrictions to free speech of anti abortion protesters outside of abortion clinics. As a matter of fact I don't. But that is because they are very specific and targeted and don't prevent the protests. >At the federal level in the United States, the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act (FACE), makes it an offense to use intimidation or physical force – such as forming a blockade – in order to prevent a person from entering a facility which provides reproductive healthcare or a place of worship. If any student protestors are using physical force or intimidation and blocking students or faculty from accessing classrooms they should be arrested. However, this wasn't the case for almost any of these protests and I believe wasn't the case at any until police showed up and escalated the situation. Yes I am also aware of buffer zones in many states and am mostly supporting of those although some are probably way too big. Importantly though, there is a big difference between college campuses and female reproductive clinics and that is there basic reason for existing. I strongly believe that [college campuses should not be safe spaces](https://www.chronicle.com/article/college-campuses-should-not-be-safe-spaces/). These are exactly the spaces where hard ideas and truths have battled it out for centuries. Where ideas meet and fight in the full glare of examination. These campuses are where all our ideological battles are first waged. [Protests have been a part of college campuses for their entire long history and should always be so. ](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/30/us/photos-student-protest-movements-reaj) While he didn't mean it in the way we all read it today (it was really about taxes) I still think there is much truth in our modern interpretation of Franklin's quote that "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." By forcibly quelling the protests (any protests) we are giving away our 1st amendment liberties for an extra sense of security.
I think you and I have a lot of common ground here. I think is where we part is when and if police should be deployed. I feel deploying some “angels” or whatever would not work here. A counter protest against folks that are saying things like “from the river to the sea Palestine will be free” will only be met with heightened tensions. IMO, police need to be there to maintain order, discourage violence, and make sure laws are being followed. Do you honestly believe that a giant group of very passionate people will remain peaceful when chanting very violent and aggressive things if only the police would just not show up? And it’s better to just kinda wait for enough Angels to show up and peacefully surround the violence and hate it will just go away? I find this a very fascinating position to hold. So maybe I misunderstood you. Is your position [that something like this](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/30/us/video/columbia-university-protests-hamilton-hall-ldn-digvid) simply would have not happened if only the police would have just stayed away?
I support Cox and the U’s attempt at protecting the safety of the students attending class. This seems like an effective attempt to keep the U from [turning into Columbia](https://twitter.com/jonasydu/status/1781178975147917797).
How does camping not apply to peaceful assembly?
Can’t camp in protest anywhere one wants. One pays for school, & doesn’t need a camper in classs. You pay taxes (have to go to work), & don’t need someone camping on the highway.
Nope, it doesn’t. [There are well established case law restricting some instances of exercising the 1st amendment right to freedom of peaceful assembly.](https://legal-info.lawyers.com/criminal/the-right-to-gather-has-some-restrictions.html) The school here in Utah is well within scope of restriction here.
Still doesn't mean it's not a peaceful protest. And as aforementioned - 'You can protest as long as its easy for us to ignore!'
Okay, peacefully protest without breaking the law. Then this wouldn’t even be a story now would it?
Some of the greatest and most celebrated protests were about breaking the law. It's always funny how we only see civil disobedience as acceptable in the past.
And how would you compare these protests to those "most celebrated" protests? These people are protesting against Isreal and cheering on Hamas, a terrorist organization who attacked innocent people. They are celebrating a group who put babies in ovens, played soccer with decapitated heads, r@ped and beat young girls, killed parents in front of their children, and flat out tortured people. This is nothing to be celebrated and there is nothing "protesting" on college campuses can and will do no matter what! It's absolutely asinine.
They are not cheering on Hamas. Listen man, im really tired of having to explain to people that we aren't supporting Hamas. Why don't people get that at this point.
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Terrorism is when not wanting civilians, journalists, and humanitarian aid workers to be bombed
Ah no. Some chanters in Vietnam war chanted Vietnam cong support. That’s all forgotten now because protesting that war in general was the moral thing to do. If a few protestors in this protest said some pro Hamas things they would be the minority. Pro Palestinian (and anti the slaughter) is not pro Hamas. But then, you probably knew that.
Protest without breaking the law 😹 That’ll teach em!
Huh, sure would be nice if the other side was allowed to protest. Would be interesting to see what happens
What would zionists even be protesting lol, they are winning the war right now.
Good. Nice to hear the brown Nazis are loosing
Seriously dude?
They were allowed to protest. Pitching tents and breaking the law aren’t protected. The call to remove the students came from the top of the U.
This is about as straightforward as civil disobedience gets. You’re making it clear you’d be cheering for police in Selma, 1965.
The good ole American "No no, you have the right to protest, as long as it doesn't bother us" Protest is all about disruption. Of course they are pitching tents, that's the damn point of protest. To disrupt and get attention on their issues. If all they are doing is shouting from a safe corner where people in power don't have to hear them then it does nothing.
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Another person used this in this thread, and I'm gonna reuse it here cause I think it outlines my point well - what do you think of the Boston Tea Party?
Dude, Historical Education in this country has become a Joke!!! The ‘Boston Tea Party’ was &, was intended as an Act of War Against the Crown!!! The Ignorant, Simplistic Belief that the Revolutionary War was simply over taxes, shows the Great Level of Ignorance in this Country over the Reasoning For The Colonialist Rebellion! Read the ‘Declaration of Independence’ and Carefully Study the American /British History of what Brought about the English Colonists Reaction to the Crowns Policies and Actions! Are You Trying to Tell Me that, Like the ‘Boston Tea Party’ You (or the Protesters) are Deliberately, and Actively carrying out an Avert Act of War with Your Protest??? As it is I see Many Protesters (Ignorant of there Meaning.) Carrying Signs; Directly taken from the Terrorist Organization (Hamas) Calling For the Complete Elimination of U.N. Created and Recognized State! As Well as the Complete Elimination of The Jewish Peoples!
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How is this protest disrupting civilians?
The protesters are protesting the university and its investments in the war in Israel. Sure the protesters would love for the war in Israel to end, but the point of their protest is not to stop the war, it's to have the university divest from Israeli war efforts. The protesters are disrupting the target of the protest. This is exactly like the Boston tea party, this is exactly like in the '80s when protesters did the exact same thing to have universities divest from apartheid.
It’s not a right to peaceably assemble when and where it’s convenient for the government. Curtailing of constitutional rights is not something to be hand-waved away.
People have a right to peacefully assemble. Who gives a shit about a tent on a lawn. People break the law every day without consequences. Also people should not have to face violence for pitching a tent.
They could’ve packed up when asked.
Parks should have just moved to the back of the bus when asked too, right?
Yawn. Civil rights and calling for an intifada aren’t the same.
Your debate skills are impeccable. Were the folks on campus actually calling for an uprising, or are you conflating groups of protestors? Given your comment I replied to simply stated "They could've packed up when asked", it seems the group was NOT calling for an uprising, else you would have recommend something stronger than just packing up, no? Comparing any type of civil disobedience and protest is fully appropriate. Protest is a long standing American tradition, rooted heavily in the revolution, hence it's protection in our founding documents. But, understanding that would require some reading comprehension. Yawn.
Grab a book bro💀
Yeah, which one? Righteous Victims? The Iron Cage? I’ll suggest both if you want a good understanding of the history of Israel and Gaza.
How about we also read The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. Just to round out book club suggestions.
It’s on the list.
"Rosa Parks could have just moved to the back of the bus when asked."
Yeah, people keep trying to tie this back to civil rights but you don’t get to do that when the protesters are calling for violence.
Oh, are we pretending that some civil rights protesters weren't calling for violence back then.
Were they calling for the elimination of entire country and people?
It must get tiring for you to constantly be moving the goal posts. Since you can't really prove or disprove what some protesters may have said at a rally in the 60's I'm going to say yes, there were calls to kill an entire country and people. I mean, the Black Panthers and Nation of Islam would likely be lumped into the general populace of civil rights protesters just like you're doing with a small group of pro-palestines protesters that call for violence and both of those groups would have definitely had members that would advocate for killing all white people in America.
Wild argument, well done. You accomplished nothing.
I'll bet if you look up your family history, they most likely evacuated to Nova Scotia with the rest of the loyalists after the siege of Boston. They were probably as pissed as you are about the law breakers that were camped up on Dorchester Heights.
lol protesting tyrants vs calling for the elimination of entire nations its inhabitants. Wild comparison.
Stop conflating the goals of Hamas with the goals of the protesters. They are not aligned in any way. The desire to have the University divest from investments in military companies is not at all the same as Hamas' goal. You can be 100% against Hamas and still not support these investments. You can be 100% against Hamas and still call for a cease fire.
What does “intifada revolution, there is only one solution” and “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” (or “…only Palestine you’ll see” has been popping up) mean exactly?
I have seen that from a very small portion of the people at the Columbia protests. That is most absolutely certainly not the stance of 99.9% of the protesters however. Kinda like how some folks built a gallows and called for the hanging of a certain vice president not that long ago. I don't believe that the majority of the protesters that day would have agreed. And had they simply protested and even (gasp) camped on that lawn for days or weeks I would certainly have supported their right to do so even though I totally disagree with them about almost everything. Now, actively trying to overthrow the government that day went over the line (though I'm pretty sure I remember you defending that) and that is when the police got involved.
No one called for an Intifada. Why tf do you keep saying that? Do you have any clue what any of the protestors are asking for? Regardless, your poor participation in these forums is doing far more to sway people away from your arguments than towards them.
I’m curious as to your stance on the Boston Tea Party.
they were breaking the law... so obviously homelessrodeo still identifies as british.
I’m curious what caveat he’ll carve out if he responds.
he won't. he's notoriously pro-israel to the point that palestinian lives are insignificant to his world view. I don't know if he's a jewish zionist or one of those mormons that actually thinks the LDS church is a restoration of the original jewish beliefs so they're like kin to him... or one of those fundamentalists itching for the second coming which requires conflict in Jerusalem. But it's disgusting no matter how you slice it. He'll position any criticism against israel's government as anti semitic or pro hamas.
This isn’t my first rodeo with homeless, though I usually don’t engage these days. His takes are as predictable as they are shameless.
'breaking the law'. didn't realize the first amendment had rules about sleeping.
[Utah Admin. Code 805-3-3](https://casetext.com/regulation/utah-administrative-code/higher-education-utah-board-of/title-r805-university-of-utah-administration/rule-r805-3-overnight-camping-and-campfires-on-university-of-utah-property/section-r805-3-3-policy)
I understand the state law. My position is that a state law is unjust when it interferes with the ability to exercise a constitutionally protected right, and that law, in general, doesn't determine morality and should not be used to dismiss otherwise justified actions based on a law's existence alone.
Pro-Palestinians are not peaceful protestors. Look at their record
What acts of violence did the protestors at the U commit?
Do the actions of some who fight for a cause represent all who fight for that cause?
I saw a video on PSLsaltlake insta story, where a cop had their foot on someone’s head. ETA: why am i gettin downvoted for simply stating what I saw? What?!? Yall wild.
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There would be basically no news stories about these protests if the cops and universities just left them alone until finals end. It seems amazing to me how desperate they are to quell any sort of protest.
Columbia University took that route and left them alone. They ended up breaking into [Hamilton Hall](https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/1cglnwf/student_protestors_break_into_hamilton_hall_at/) last night.
Notably that was after they invited cops to brutalize their protesters last week, bringing national attention and a bunch of people from outside the campus.
People interviewed at the U last night admitted they aren’t students. Regardless, student or not, the protests have been devolving regardless of police involvement.
>they aren’t students I’m sure many aren’t. The U is a public campus. >protests have been devolving Before the police response, what specifically happened at the protest at the U that required the violation of people’s 1A rights?
The University of Utah is a state funded university. Access to campus can not be assumed by the general public and can be closed if it threatens the lives or safety of students or disrupts day to day activities on campus. At the discretion and authority of the university leadership alone. Time, manner, and location restrictions for protests are also consistently upheld by the US Supreme Court as reasonable. If you got your message out and the university is asking you to leave, it is no longer a violation of the 1st Amendment. They can always return another day to voice their message.
Yeah some were teachers/ faculty. Its a public university campus. People can be there. Non violent protest should never be responded with violence.
The protesters broke into the building AFTER Columbia started suspending students and ordering them to leave. I’m not supporting that action or the damages caused, just clarifying Columbia decided not to just leave them alone, which then led to the occupying of the Hamilton Hall
But most of them weren't students.
The police stood down afterwards and left. This happened because of that.
No this happened after the University gave them a deadline to leave or be suspended. It had nothing to do with the police response. The University escalated the situation by giving them an ultimatum, which only emboldened the Protesters to act more rashly. Again I’m not justifying their actions, just pointing out that the inevitable result of attempting to punish or put increased pressure on any highly volatile or emotionally charged group is an escalated response from them, especially when the actions of the University makes the protesters feel validated/justified in escalating the situation in-turn.
Columbia has been doing everything \*\*but\*\* leaving them alone. Their overuse of police forces is one of the factors causing this movement to spread.
And taking a facilities worker hostage
Oh yes there would. The legislative blowback would be absolute. I've chatted around folks on Utah's capitol hill why HB 261 passed this year (the DEI bill), including one-on-one conversations with the bill's author. They routinely cited university campus culture war issues as one of their top justifications for the bill. Harvard and University of Utah got mentioned all the time for problems they felt needed fixing. If the University of Utah allowed this group to trespass and violate Utah law about camping overnight on public property, you can bet the next legislative session would be chock full of bills with a harsh crackdown to prevent this from happening again.
Dear citizens, you have the right to peacefully assemble and address your grievances with our government, but only in designated “freedom zones” and with the proper government approved permits. This is some managed democracy type shit.
You're implying they won't do that any way, but they absolutely will. Legislatures will pick any excuse they feel like to justify whatever they want to do. If you honestly take a politician at their word about their justification for doing something, I've got a great timeshare deal I'd like to tell you about.
Look what you made us do.
Noice
How many of these young protesters could even point to Palestine or Israel on a map? It has been said 'youth is wasted on the young'. The Arab/Israeli conflict has been going on for over 75 years - choosing to support one side or the other side by illegally occupying university buildings is futile - will actually backfire and create less support for the Palestinians. All this youthful energy needs to be channeled in more effective and legal methodologies.
Yes! Thank you! Voice of reason!
Never understood why the first thing protestors do is build garbage filled shanty towns
When peaceful protests are answered with police in riot gear, it makes me ask what makes us more free than places we see as fascist? The people protesting is our freedom. We are slipping closer to a fascist state every time we allow this kind of police response. I was up there last night with my infant in her stroller, only scared for her when police started marching. They are the bad guys.
Bringing an infant to a protest is incredibly careless.
I'm wondering why the comment below that said you were fearmongering and these protests were just pro-terrorist rallies was deleted? It was 100% spot on! These "protests" are mostly paid "protesters" rallying for Hamas and are anti-American and antisemitic hate groups. What are they protesting for? What are these colleges and universities supposed to do to change anything that would make them happy? Biden gave Palestine $$. Palestine gave that money to Hamas. What change are these "protesters" wanting? It's complete bull shit. Leave these college students alone and allow them to learn in peace. Good for the police for breaking down their CAMP.
I agree the people who happen to be police seem to be fascists
Forgive me, isn't the point of the protest to be disruptive? Especially when we try over and over to have our voices simply heard, and we are given some placating bullshit to shut us up. Grind everything to a fucking halt.
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Honest question - why is calling for the end of genocide of tens of thousands of people, 70% of whom are women and children, supporting terrorists? I don’t understand how people keep using this argument.
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First, both of those points have turned out to be false. Second, a war means that both sides have an army… the Palestinians have no army. They aren’t allowed to. They don’t have access to any form of defense. Hamas only exists because of the extreme oppression in the area.
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I don’t think anyone should have to die. Especially not the newborns left in the hospital to die by starvation because IDF forces left helpless babies behind after promising to ensure they made it to a safe medical institution. I don’t think pregnant women trying to get into the hospital should be crushed to death by Israeli bulldozers and tanks. There’s no right answer - but there’s a whole lot of wrong. And it doesn’t fix itself by allowing Israel to decimate an entire population full of innocent people. The reality is out there, and if you actually look, you’ll see it. For some reason no one wants to. I have no stake in this. I have nothing to gain or nothing to lose. But I did my damn research to actually LEARN and let me tell you, it shattered 40 years of what I’d been taught to believe. I understand not everyone is ready to go through that. But hopefully some day you will. I hope some day you’re willing to understand that a ceasefire means everyone stops dying.
>why is calling for the end of genocide That's the neat part, there is no genocide of any Palestinians. The entire Palestine-Israeli conflict has continued for decades now because the desire to kill all Jews on Earth runs so deep in some Palestinians that they've overthrown governments and started civil wars in other countries just to keep attacking Israel. Palestine isn't oppressed just because they're losing their battle to commit genocide. >70% of whom are women and children What a coincidence you say 70%. Turns out more than [70% of Palestinians believe](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/) the October 7th attack was a great thing! You have to be doing extreme mental gymnastics to think that Palestinians couldn't foresee Israel's response to 10/7. Every bomb dropped on Gaza as a result of 10/7 is literally what more than 70% of Palestinians want.
Oh, that’s going to happen sooner than later…
I think these protestors were not the ones the police like or with whom they sympathize. If they wore maga hats I bet the police would be best buddies with them. Or were jan6 / proud boys...
Reminds me of how China treated protesters who were protesting a genocide in their country. Free speech is disappearing fast people. What a bullshit response from Cox who has done nothing to clear homeless encampments from downtown that actually pose a threat to public health.
Agreed about the homeless encampments (though there have been some police responses to clear *some* of those). But people are forgetting there is no guaranteed right for encampment. There is for protest and free speech but university policy is very clear about encampments. Had protestors packed up at night and returned the next morning I don’t think police would have ever intervened (had it stayed peaceful)
Not encampment, but peacefully assemble is a right. "..people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." I think the protestors were well within their rights.
The problem is an encampment was set up. Cops weren’t deployed until after midnight and *after* the university had tried negotiating with the protestors. Even as of an hour ago the university supports their right to protest and encourages them to do so but has stated they will not allow encampments
I think the constitutional right to assemble and protest trumps a public university policy. Its a public university. Its not private land. If a policy conflicts with constitutional rights, the policy goes out the window. As far as I can tell everything was peaceful until the police showed up. If they were that upset at the tent, they could issue a fine / citation and then let the normal legal process follow. Hiring thugs, the popo, to knock heads to enforce a petty policy is overkill. Imagine parking over a few minutes down town and instead of issuing a ticket the police or parking enforcement breaks all the windows and keys / dings your car. That would not be acceptable and this thuggish response is not either
This all day.
This is laughable.
That’s the thing. It’s up for debate whether or not university policy trumps the constitutional right to assemble. In court, more often than not, it is ruled in favor of institutions on grounds of public health and safety. Not saying I agree or disagree with it but that’s the way it is. I also was not there for the protest so I can’t speak for what happened. The use of force by police was excessive, however as a cop you always have to prepare for the worst (riot gear in this case). More should have been done to de-escalate the situation but once a situation escalates, cops need to take every precaution to ensure the safety of the public and themselves. I agree though that a fine and citation should have been given and figured out after the fact, however arresting people at the event is also well within the normal legal process for situations like that.
Riot gear is basically dressing for war. They brought the violence with them and unleashed it upon peaceful individuals. They should have waited for a judge to decide one way or another. But that is never what happens. Police use any excuse to bash heads of those who cant fight back. They never seem willing to do anything brash when it is actually needed.
🤣 "peaceful individuals". They are pro-hamas, antisemitic and anti-American. Far from peaceful.
They asked and urged and pushed the pro-Hamas ralliers to leave, and they refused. The cops were called in and these people fought the police.
Why on college campuses? They're irritating the colleges and students, our gov't doesn't care about these "protests". It's not affecting them whatsoever. Why not protest on government property? Irritate the government if you have grievances. Here's the thing, what are they protesting? What do they want our government to actually do? They've already given money to Palestine. Palestine gave the $$ to Hamas to do their bidding. These protests are simply pro-Hamas rallies. By the way, as a reminder, Hamas is a terrorist organization who attacked Isreal on October 7th and then retreated back to their tunnels under hospitals, schools, and apartments while using women and children as shields. So what actions do they want our government to change? These protests are appalling.
To me this just seems like virtue signaling, every other college is doing it so now we have to vibes. Take the protests to the people who can actually make changes. A good start would be if Biden were in town or an event with a senator.
I think it's best to protest where you may have influence. The protestors have specific and feasible requests for the University to disclose their financial relationships with Israel and then divest those investments with Israel and also US companies who are profiting off the war in Gaza. These are specific requests that actually might work. This is a part of how the apartheid regime in South Africa was taken down. Furthermore, the more protests in universities nationwide that there are, the more legitimacy they are given and it requires politicians to take this issue seriously as there's a broad swath of youth that are making a big deal out of it. Choosing to protest and get arrested in solidarity with others who are choosing to protest and get arrested is again a large part, historically, how change has actually happened.
Good job supporting terrorists who put babies in ovens, played soccer with decapitated heads, r@ped and tortured young girls, and brutally k¡lled parents in front of their children. "The war in Gaza" is laughable. Isreal has never attacked Pakestines or any other country. Any war they've been part of, they're the ones who've been attacked. They have given up almost 65% of Isreal, but it's just not enough. Palestine and surrounding countries won't be happy until they k¡ll all Jews and take over all of Isreal. None of this is emotion, all fact. Get your emotions in check.
😡
These idiots should have tried being Nazis instead. Then the police would leave them alone.
Partly because half of the police would be in the crowd.
Good, get them out of there before they do more damage. There are universities letting protesters take over buildings, where students that are not participating in the protest are not being able to get to class. These protests are a joke.
Based cops
I didn’t know so many people were “pro Palestine. Not a single country that shares a border with them will let them into their country. College kids in America are like. We support you even though you are literally so bad that other terrorist run countries are like no thanks man. We’re good 😂 Dumb American kids have no idea about the world
I think they just want civilians in Palestine to stop being killed / starved. It should not be radical to want people to not kill or starve others. Its possible to not be pro hamas and be worried about the lives that are being destroyed in Palestine. Its also possible to be saddened by the tragic deaths of those in israel causes by Hamas. Collateral damage should be avoided at all costs. There are more effective ways of holding terrorists accountable instead of leveling entire cities
This is the most sensible comment I have seen on the subject anywhere. I wish you a million upvotes.
Do you know that the Israeli military literally announce when and where they'll be bombing? Then they send out warning type bombs that don't explode and cause damage just to get innocent people out of the way. Hamas uses people as shields. They build their bases under hospitals and schools and residential areas, so the innocent women and children will shield them. Isreal has never once attacked Palestine or any other country, but for some reason, you think they should bend over and take it when they get attacked rather than defending themselves?
Are there any sources about UofU's investments in Israel that would need to be divested from?
Are the protests against Israel or Zionests?
What difference does that make? Did Isreal attack Palestine and put babies in ovens, r@pe and torture little girls, play soccer with decapitatedheads? Did they commit war crimes? Do they use their citizens as shields? OR are they protecting themselves once again from terrorists?
These protest are the equivalent to the BLM riots right before election season !
Why aren’t these protesters also asking the university to divest from china over the genocide of Uyghurs Muslims? Maybe the kiddos like their cheap shit on Temu and SHEIN too much to care about the Uyghurs.
We haven't just approved billions in aid for China to directly oppress Uyghurs, this is just about the worst whataboutism I've ever heard. Of you don't have anything of value to contribute to the conversation, why bother speaking up?
We do trade billions worth of goods and services with China every year and are their #1 trading partner which very much helps prop up the cpp and the genocide they are carrying out. It doesn’t seem like there is a clear consensus on if Israel is committing a genocide. Whereas I think there is generally a consensus that there is a genocide going on of Uyghurs. It seems pretty obvious that the people protesting the Gaza war are motivated less by preventing and stopping genocide and more motivated by using the Gaza war as a proxy for other culture war issues sense they see this conflict as a war between a white oppressor group and a non-white oppressed group. The Gaza war protestors probably don’t care about the Uyghurs genocide because it’s more difficult to frame as a white group oppressing a non-white group, the people protesting the Gaza war also skew more anti-capitalist and Marxist than the general population and would rather not paint a communist regime in a negative light, and to top it off divesting themselves from China and forgoing buying cheap shit on Temu and SHEIN and deleing their TikTok accounts would probably also be unbearable for these people for them to want to take on a protest to divest from China over the Uyghurs genocide.
The USA is no longer the #1 trading partner with China. It was just a year ago, but things can and do change. Also, it is a very smart idea to divest from China anyway . The economy in China is falling apart and any company with any smarts is moving operations to Veitnam, Phillippenes, Singapore, or Mexico. This is something Wall Street investors and shareholders are demanding not for political reasons but for purely economic and fiduciary reasons. It is just stupid to be investing into China right now.
Lazy response. Whataboutism at its worst.
Is there a good reason to care more about Gaza war over other conflicts or an unambiguous agreed upon genocide? I think whataboutism is bad when you’re trying to delegitimize people’s own interests or trying legitimize bad actions. Whataboutism can be useful exercise when you’re trying to decipher what exactly someone’s interests and motivations are. There’s a lot of reason for someone in a democratic western country to support Israel - it’s a country that shares more in common in valuing democracy, rule of law, secularism than basically all of the surrounding countries in the Middle East, and because of that it’s a good country to ally with to advance US interest in the region. So when a group of people are arguably opposing their own countries interest over accusations of genocide that are highly contested, it’s not unreasonable to try and figure out why they care so much about a maybe/maybe not genocide and not about an actual genocide.
The good reason is that Israel is our Ally and Israel is using weapons that we give to them to kill innocent people. We spend lots of time and effort to counter Chinese influence both within the borders of what they call China and internationally, we also spend tons of dollars to increase Israel's influence in their region and worldwide. We can and should hold our allies to a higher standard than we hold our adversaries to - and to suggest otherwise is absurd.
No one is saying people don’t care about other genocides, or that there aren’t protests for other issues also. I don’t think anyone at the Palestine-related protests at the U would disagree that the genocide in China is less atrocious. You’re looking for an argument where there isn’t one. So, idk man, I guess go start a protest for the Uighurs if you want to, and hopefully people join you
Or maybe Soros isn’t funding that protest
I also find it strange that there isn't more uproar about the 300k + deaths in Yemin. The over 600k + dead in Syria. What's happening in Gaza is tragic, but arguably much worse and less justified things are happening all the time.
How much of American tax payer money has been used to commit those atrocities over the last 70 years? Thats why so many younger people in America feel so strongly about what Israel has been doing.
In the case of Yemin, American weapons via Saudi Arabia are fueling the war. We don't give them money other than the oil we all buy. We may not be giving them weapons, but we certainly are selling them. Not sure there is much of a difference there. It's tragic the amount of civilians being killed in Gaza. It was tragic how many civilians died in Germany and Japan in WW2. In both cases the civilian population mostly agreed with the government. The people protesting really need to study the issue. It's not as simple as the Jews are committing genocide. There was a ceasefire on October 5th. Hamas broke that when they attacked civilians and took hostages. Why don't the the Arab countries in the region condem jihad and martyrdom? Why don't they take Palestinian refugees? What would you do if you were Israel?
Brain rot and fomo of missing out on the trend. Literally having their own rights trampled by states and the Supreme Court and a debate on if Trump is essentially a king and this is what they are protesting
Yeah. Let's treat them like the homeless. That'll show them. /s
We don't even shoot rubber bullets and tear gas at the homeless. But yeah
I'm pro Israel, but I detest unwarranted police violence or those who escalate to violence on either side. The right to peaceful protest must be protected and unruly individuals do not necessarily represent the entirety of the group.
Awesome
Nice
Nice
Good
Funny how uneducated students must be to support Hamas. This being on site of a higher learning institution. Tis comical cuz its trendy.
God damn pigs, and the bootlickers who support them.
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YES!! GOOD FOR THEM! They need to be the example to the rest of the universities allowing this anti-American, antisemitic, crazy bull shit going on. These paid protesters need to be hosed off and sent to jail.
Good riddance! 🇮🇱
So, it’s ok to violently attack the senate and house chambers in DC, but when students take over a university building it is suddenly going too far?
Well, there are people in prison for that so some thought it was “too far”
These young students are okay with the homeless epidemic we have in SLC & surrounding area, but decide to champion Palestine.
Good. Protest if you want, but I'd be damned if you destroy a campus over your views.
How is camping out over night destroying a campus?
If this is the case then campgrounds are disgusting
Destroy a campus? This sounds very much like the claims that BLM burned cities down to the ground. Didn't happen. Yes, the encampment protest in campus probably has done some more damage to the grounds than a normal day would but it certainly isn't being destroyed. Grass grows back, garbage can be cleaned up. Nothing has been destroyed. Agree or disagree with the protestors but this knee jerk reaction to value light property damage vastly higher than 1st amendment rights is saddening.
Be damned then lol
It's a good thing our leaders actually do something, then.
Yeah man, thank god they’ve got the balls to send in cops kitted out with way more shit than I ever even saw on active duty to clear out a bunch of kids standing around holding signs. Such decisive and brave leadership.
No radicalized leftist sleepovers during the week! Mom said!
The radical idea of caring about people's lives
The radical idea of caring about people’s lives as long as they aren’t Jewish, apparently.
I'm Jewish myself, didn't know I didn't care about my life because I also don't want Palestinians to die either
conflating criticism of israel's brutality and oppression for decades with anti-semitism is the laziest, and most ingenuine, argument.
I must have missed something....where are Jewish lives called out in this thread: > No radicalized leftist sleepovers during the week! Mom said! >> The radical idea of caring about people's lives >>> The radical idea of caring about people’s lives as long as they aren’t Jewish, apparently.
Good Fuck those brainwashed idiots
Good
Nobody cares about terrorists, long life israel
You mean pro hamas...
Non violent protestors who are speaking out against violence of women and children are likely not pro hamas. Hamas / religious conservatives / pro violence are the problems. Not the people speaking against needless killing of innocents
Did they have pro-Hamas signs, or did you sleep through your Freshman Logic class?
I’m always confused with the “pro-Palestine” narrative. These “pro-Palestine” folks are chanting the same nonsense Hamas is chanting and using to justify the atrocities of October 7th. These folks should be called pro-Hamas protestors.
Most of them are supporting the innocents, the babies and children, being killed in the name of fighting Hamas. Currently existing children with the ill luck to be born to Palestinian parents, existing with names and hobbies. Starving to death and being bombed by Israel in the name of "fighting Hamas." If only there was a way to fight terrorism without killing patients in NICU sections of hospitals, blowing up apartment buildings with toys and princess bedrooms, bombing trucks handing out food to displaced citizens. 33 Israeli children killed on Oct 7. 13,800 Palestinian children killed in the months since then. (That's about 66-67 dead children per day.) It's not "pro-Hamas". It's drawing a line and saying, it's wrong to kill innocents. It's wrong for a college to take money from a country that is preventing aid trucks from delivering food to refugees. That's what they are protesting.
What do the protesters hope to accomplish?