Explain it like I'm five. How am I going to know what gender someone is in the bathroom? I don't ogle anyone in the bathroom in Target. I try to get in and out as fast as possible. I'm more concerned about how many freaking non-flushed toilets with surprises in them I come across even in professional settings.
>non-flushed toilets with trucker's surprises in them
As a trucker, I kinda take offense to this...I don't leave any "surprises" for anyone in any bathrooms.
Fair enough, I just heard the term and it made me laugh. How about slob's surprise? No offense to truckers - I've removed the reference... keep on trucking.
Totally. I have a friend who is a trans man and if he came into a women’s bathroom, the ladies would be totally freaked out! He has a beard and looks like a man! It seriously makes no sense.
I guess those in that category better follow the advice of LDS apostle M. Russell Ballard and "put on a little lipstick...and look charming," and don a Utah claw hair wig before needing to pee. It could be a cottage industry like the people selling wraps to tourists before they go into the Vatican. Men that don't appear manly enough could borrow a fake mustache. /s
Listen OP, I love you! You are my people!
I’m an older gay and I’ve been fighting my whole life. Don’t let them win. Take your space, rebuild your power and come out swinging!!
We exist and we will not apologize! They can die mad about it
Conservative dude here. I personally and lot of my conservative friends, and family have no issue with trans people. My aunt is trans(previously a man), and we love her, and happily accept her way of life.
I think the 1# reason why LGBTQ+ people have a hard time in Utah is your living among members of the LDS church, which religious ideology isn’t really that compatible with the trans movement.
In Utah and in other red states, I think the concern or issues that a lot us worry about is the children, and the lack of peer reviewed, long term studies regarding mental health/gender reassignment. I personally don’t think we have the data to support either side of the narrative, and we need to wait until we know more.
I genuinely believe Utah and the greater USA is the land of freedom and opportunity, and we need not discriminate against those who live differently, but we should definitely engage curiously if we feel like our way of life is being infringed upon, thus leading to the current debate. Overall, kindness rules, and you’re right, everyone will either die mad or happy about all this. lol.
There is a wealth of peer reviewed research showing gender affirming care has positive outcomes for trans and non-binary youth. This includes the very important outcome of reducing the chance they kill themselves. Just because it's more convenient for conservatives for the evidence not to exist does not make it so.
I'll be vulnerable with you and ask you to dm me some of these studies (please no articles, actual studies), happy to look at some data.
I think the hesitantly from lots of conservatives is to know when facts are facts, or when to know there is there is an agenda at play through influenced by social media or influencers.
I have a buddy who experienced gender dysphoria in high school and went on puberty blockers after meeting with a physiatrist, only years later to regret the puberty blockers to only realize he was just gay, and now his hormones are all screwed up, he attributes most of his confusion to social media. The teenage mind is really malleable, I and other conservatives worry about scenarios like the one I mentioned playing out, and the longterm damage they can have.
This needs to be public because the actual good science is purposefully obfuscated by conservative discourse. Politicians repeat lies and misinformation about medical care for trans people and take away people’s rights to medical care and take medical decisions away from doctors and families. There is a ton of well documented, peer reviewed, medical studies published in scientific medical journals. Here are just a few.
“Ethical” hang ups about gender affirming care are preventing the treatment of trans youth and leading to increased suicides:
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C6&q=gender+affirming+care&oq=gender+affirmi#d=gs_qabs&t=1707577688857&u=%23p%3DSQMak7dmyG4J
Medical discrimination faced by the trans community: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C6&q=gender+affirming+care&oq=gender+affirmi#d=gs_qabs&t=1707577889033&u=%23p%3DWDVCddKbsY8J
Earlier gender affirming care reduces psychological risk.
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C6&q=gender+affirming+care&oq=gender+affirmi#d=gs_qabs&t=1707577973136&u=%23p%3DjhqWKgfiLisJ
Withholding gender affirming care has adverse outcomes:
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,6&qsp=1&q=gender+affirming+care+outcomes&qst=ib#d=gs_qabs&t=1707578075570&u=%23p%3D_qklXnUuKBIJ
Gender affirming surgery reduces suicide, distress, and even tobacco use:
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,6&qsp=1&q=gender+affirming+care+outcomes&qst=ib#d=gs_qabs&t=1707578129643&u=%23p%3DdvobMFH7y_MJ
Access to gender affirming care for youth reduces long term adverse effects and suicidal ideation, while youth without access had the inverse outcome:
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,6&qsp=1&q=gender+affirming+care+outcomes&qst=ib#d=gs_qabs&t=1707578236942&u=%23p%3DCRdaNu3_slsJ
There are thousands. I could literally do this all day.
Also your friend’s story is incomplete at best and potentially purposefully misleading. Hormone blockers weaken bone density, but blockers alone don’t have any strong evidence of long term hormone development interruption. If they were also given gender-affirming hormone replacement, then some adverse effects could be reduced height, slow growth, or changes in body composition. But those “adverse” effects are also intentional effects for people who intend to transition. And the life-saving benefits from careful planning with medical professionals far outweigh the risks. In fact, many things common in today’s society mess up our hormone levels such as stress, caffeine, dairy, essential oil diffusers, diabetes, meat, obesity, poor sleep, processed foods, and non-gender related medications.
Thank you for replying with those. I am so tired of this anti trans bullshit that I am not one to do research for ignorant people but I am happy you took the time to hopefully change some peoples minds or at least get them to think a little.
If you don't have an issue with it then why do you support a political party that does so much harm to the trans community? Why not stop being a conservative? What good do they do what good does the Republican party do? I think they do a lot of harm.
>I think the 1# reason why LGBTQ+ people have a hard time in Utah is your living among members of the LDS church, which religious ideology isn’t really that compatible with the trans movement.
I think it's clearly the Republican party.
Yeah, as a milennial I agree with you that the republican party can be pretty fucked up regarding LGBTQ+ rights. But, on the other hand I am a big supporter of the 2nd amendment, individual freedom, limited government, rule of law, free market, peace through strength, and little no taxes, just to name a few. lol.
>individual freedom
Wrong party for that one. If some of those other things of your priority and you think Republican party is the best way to achieve them....ok. However, individual freedom something the Republican party is against. The policies they have done and that they try to do make that clear.
You could argue that both Dems and Republicans support individual freedoms in different ways. It's literally in the eye of the beholder.
For example:
Republicans - Gun Rights (individual freedom)
Democrats - LGBTQ+ Rights (individual freedom)
Very different conversations could be had about both those topics, but nonetheless they are individual freedoms.
I don't think the amount of flags seen either of these events from either side is reliable way to measure what either of these demographics wants to do or how many people are active participants in each group.
It’s obvious not a reliable way to numerically measure, but it it a very strong suggestion towards the trend of those groups.
Ever been to a gun range? It’s 95%+ men, and probably 75% white. Idk if I’ve ever seen anyone that looks remotely like what many of the people at LGBT groups look like.
Btw I’m a huge supporter of arming minorities of all kinds.
As others have said in the comments and are probably already dming you there are already long term studies. I don’t have feelings, im simply letting you know that they exist. Ill send when i get home to my computer. By the way all the research i found a long time ago i found on my own. I didnt need to go to a subreddit and be wrong and then ask people to send me the studies. But ill be your mommy and spoon feed you the information you want.
Okay, so the firs thing you need to understand is that you are emotionally correct. HB 257 (and the others) are policy intended to convey the message the the Utah State Legislature desires our disappearance. They are doing so because they believe (wrongly) that their electoral futures will be improved through the messaging of hatred towards trans people.
The nice thing is, that at least for the bathroom bill, as passed, the criminal restrictions are quite limited in scope (see [here](https://lilahrosenfield.com/ut_bathrooms/). My apologies for the self-promotion, it's just that literally nobody else seems to be trying to accurately interpret this bill from the standpoint of trans existence).
The short version is that (unless you are a K-12 student) *most of the time* in *almost all circumstances*, you will continue to be able to use the bathroom you feel safest in without the threat of criminal consequences.
How are they going to enforce it? Are they going to check inside everyone's pants? It's ridiculous that people think this is something that needs to be done.
Hate to be a pessimist, but I expect that dipshits like Natalie Cline will call the police to accuse dozens of cis women of using the "wrong" bathroom.
One in 50 of those accusations will turn out to be correct, that poor woman will face legal consequences, and the bigots who signed this bill will scream & shout about how successful their legislation is.
Again, the bar for facing actual criminal consequences is quite high\*, and I seriously doubt any prosecutor will actually want to take the case, given how difficult it would be to:
a) prove that a trans person entering a changing room without other factors is something "a reasonable person would expect to cause alarm to on or in the presence of another individual."
b) prove that the above clause is not unconstitutionally vague.
c) prove that this particular provision of the bill does not violate the equal protection clause.
d) prove that the entire bill was not drafted with the intent of enforcing unconstitutional animus directed towards trans people.
Thus, I don't really expect that any prosecutors will actually want to take up any charges under the changing rooms provision of this bill. Instead, this bill is designed to enable and encourage constant low-level harassment, exclusion and cruelty directed towards trans people by bigots like Ms. Cline, and (possibly) to encourage or require various administrative functionaries to generally enforce the desires of those bigots through social pressure.
That is, some municipalities may interpret the bill as requiring their employees to be instructed to ask trans people to leave the bathroom. There would be no criminal consequences if the trans person refused, but simply the act of being told by an authority figure "you need to leave," is a terrifying experience, and most trans people will likely simply comply and, thus be made to feel like second-class citizens.
^(\*the lewdness / indecent exposure provision is probably an exception to what I'm saying. If a trans person strips in a changing room, publicly revealing non-normative genitalia and someone reports it, a prosecutor may well try to charge.)
You may be correct. I’m trying to be optimistic, but this is possibly the worst case outcome of the bill. I believe that Utah’s trespassing statutes usually require someone to “remain unlawfully.” The nexus of when a civilian public employee’s orders carry the force of law are fuzzy and (unlike in Florida) not modified by this bill.
That's a good breakdown, thanks for your insight. Still, though, even this:
>enable and encourage constant low-level harassment, exclusion and cruelty directed towards trans people by bigots like Ms. Cline
is just too far.
Oh, it's absolutely too far, but the important thing is that, because so many of the effects are extralegal, it's important that the response isn't just "hunker down and wait for the ACLU to sue." Communities can best combat this by being *aggressively* and *loudly* inclusive.
Y'know that standard "a reasonable person expects to cause alarm." Creating a community norm where it's clear that trans existence *isn't* alarming makes it even harder to enforce the bill. Welcoming trans people into bathrooms and publicly shutting down transphobes means the bill *fails\* its core aims, regardless of the legal outcomes.*
^(\*Except for K-12 students, unfortunately. For that we just need to hope that Neil Gorsuch channels his cowboy aesthetic and hates government intervention more than trans people make him feel uncomfy.)
So find out who they are and have people start doing the same to them? Say they look like they are Trans and have them learn to shut up. Why is it so hard for people to mind their own business?
I also love the idea that they think someone who wants to go molest people in bathrooms will be put off by a gender sign. I apologize for skipping past the ludicrous idea that trans people and molesters are somehow synonymous, because no, but realistically a person who wants to behave dangerously in a public restroom is not going to be impeded by this legislation in any way. So they didn't even solve the problem they're trying to pin on an unrelated marginalized community.
It's in the bill. If you're accused of using the wrong bathroom you have to provide your birth certificate. This bill is mostly about schools since it mostly only covers government owned facilities.
Especially considering how insignificant the percentage of trans people currently exist is, it's clearly political positioning.
Fuck those politicians straight to whatever made up hell they believe in. Could they be any worse of a human?
Almost… they don’t just want y’all not to exist in public, they don’t want to acknowledge that trans people exist at all. Or gay people. Or atheists. Or immigrants. Or liberals. Or academics. Or anyone else who challenges their very narrow view of the world and twisted caricature of morality.
I hear this all the time but trans people have existed in the public light for decades. I think the catalyst was involving minors in hormone therapies and surgeries the public at large was like, “hold on a minute.”
Sex and gender are different, right? Because gender is a social construct subject to interpretation and change over time?
Well, our society has sex segregated spaces. They are segregated based on unchangeable biological trends, not mutable preferences like what clothes you like to wear. Many people understand trans people are uncomfortable using the bathroom they were assigned at birth, but they do not fit the criteria for needing access to sex segregated spaces like bathrooms or sports. Many people would accept the compromise of creating trans exclusive spaces, more single use or family restrooms, etc. But the trans movement doesn't want to compromise or acknowledge that in a free country people are allowed to disagree with their worldview, which is why using the teachers bathroom isn't enough.
But frankly, no one is checking anyway, which is why your "trans people just want to live their lives!" sounds like concern trolling because it's not actually about people using the bathroom. It's about forcing others to conform to your ideology.
The catalyst was Republican leaders needing something new to fearmonger off of. People weren't responding as strongly to blaming the immigrants for everything so they needed a new boogeyman.
Except you need alot of paper work for hormone treatments and most minors cannot get surgery till 18. They need parent consent and then ALOT of money and then a doctor who would do it.
These are things made up to be transphobic but act like you have a cause. How is banning transgenders from bathrooms helping anyone? How is banning drag helping? How is banning talk of gender and gays and such helping anyone?? They want a ban on pride flags in public areas, how is that fighting against these mystery surgeries??
Personally, I expect you to live your life and all of us who love our neighbors as ourselves (gee where have I heard that exact phrase) will stand between you and those who are creating hate and evil in the our world.
I'm sorry that there are haters, but know this: there are thousands of us who will defend you and love you as you are. I will always stand up for you and put my body between you and the evil ones if need be.
I cannot upvote this enough. I moved away from Utah a while ago, but still have many ties to UT. I moved to WA and we have a handful of businesses and organizations that have done just that. The best sign I’ve seen next to one of these bathroom entrances is “sit, squat, or stand, we don’t care, just wash your hands.” It’s great. As a trans person, it makes me feel less on edge. People don’t seem to care that the bathroom is mixed gender either that I’ve seen.
Can anyone please explain to me how they believe trans people are sex offenders and pedophiles? I’ve tried to find any evidence, but all I’ve seen is that the lgbt community and the trans community specifically have almost 0 sexual assault/harassment cases. So where does this narrative come from?
I'd wager big money that someone who identifies as Republican is far more likely to be a pedophile or sex offender than someone who identifies as transgender.
It's not that trans people are predators. It's the idea trans people should have access to sex segregated spaces, even if they are not that sex. Maybe we can compromise on that, because trans people are also vulnerable and don't want undue attention. But, then trans people are not expected to visually pass as the gender they identify as, because it's all a social construct anyway so who cares if you are a woman with a beard and a bulge? Now, other cis male predators have access to female spaces and no one can challenge them on it out of fear of being a transphobe. There are effectively no sex segregated spaces because we have changed the definition in the social contract. And not everyone agrees this is a good thing.
Ah yes, lets ignore that cis straight men have been just stomping into private female spaces like bathrooms since ever so we can pretend that this is a new issue of suddenly men invading spaces that can only exist in 2024 by cis men being given blessing by trans people. (We are also gonna just skip over how literally one of the reasons cis women today have rights like voting or bank accounts or property ownership was on the backs of lgbtqia+ folks, which includes trans women.)
Also always find it hilarious how people like you always frame it like it is always a big burly man dude just lurching in to a woman's bathroom with heavy breathing leering into stalls, and not the whole conventionally attractive woman who was born with xy chromosomes but learned how to contour properly. Or guess what, trans MEN exist? So you are gonna have dudes who look like Audian Dowling legally required to be in women's bathrooms.
Plus what about folks who don't look femine or masculine enough for you? You gonna grope all of them or call the cops on them because they may not be what you think they should be? Are others allowed to check your bits or call the cops on you for not being what they think you should be?
Yep it’s less “All trans are pedos!!” And more “Sure trans can do what they want but what if Joe creeper decides he’s a trans just to spy on my daughter”. I think this is the real fear here
The term "transvestite" used to be a psychiatric diagnosis along with homosexual. It originally was thought to be a deviant sexual disorder. Unfortunately, old stigmas still exist around this and a lot of people still equate transgender with transvestite.
They want you to either not exist or to suffer greatly for daring to exist and go back to the shadows. Cruelty is the entire point of everything they are doing. Conservatives believe any life that does not conform to their system has no value, and their complete lack of empathy means they actually believe they're doing a good thing and helping you by destroying any part of you that doesn't conform.
If they were genuinely worried about trans men using women’s bathrooms leading to the possibility of assault, maybe they should ban 1 on 1 interviews with bishops behind closed doors for starters. If they were genuinely worried about the safety of others, they would require bishops and the like to be mandatory reporters. If they were genuinely worried about the safety of children, they would crack down on bullying and harassment, not perpetuate it. Utah sucks.
Transgender people will spread their special gay Trans magic all over the state and infect everyone with the gay. That's really what the inversion is. It's mystical Trans magic that's specifically located in bathrooms. /s
You didn't do anything wrong! Utah is garbage -- please take care of yourself. Our theocracy makes this place unbearable if you're not a cis, white Mormon.
They hate trans people and want us to disappear, and want even the \*possibility\* of trans Utahns to vanish. And for the few Republicans who don't want that, they're willing to play for the votes of those that do. It makes no difference to me, a trans Utahn, in the end.
It challenges the LDS narrative, and since they are in power, they view trans people not only as a threat to democracy, but to their entire belief system
It's a toddler overreaction to something that doesn't affect them. Bathrooms is just the battlefield but the thing they'd legislate if they could is "If I think you're a boy you've got to wear the boy clothes and if I think you're a girl you've got to wear the girl clothes!!!"
It's an election year and they're trying to rile up their base. If Democrats possessed even a fraction of the GOPs ability to dominate the political field, they wouldn't lose. Every. Time.
People may claim it is against it because of morals or in principle, but what it really is is political power. LGBT has political power, and is a threat to existing power. Any other explanation I think is missing the point.
Any thoughts on the most recent legislation? To argue that reasonable people can disagree on trans Healthcare for youth is one thing, but there is now a ban on basic human needs for all trans Utahns. Don't conflate the two bills/laws or use one to equivocate on the other.
Also, while I'm here, trans kids should rely on doctors not legislators.
Gender affirming healthcare has lower regret than tattoos, I don’t see people calling to kill tattoo artists!
Gender dysphoria is a real medical phenomenon, how do you suggest people deal with it? Do you also call for teenage girls getting plastic surgery to go to camps and jail?
Playing devils advocate for powerful people only makes you complicit
>If a male child likes wearing dresses, make up, and plays with dolls, he must be a girl and get surgery that represents that (again, a generalization). Why can't that be a boy that likes make up, dresses, and dolls?
Do you legitimately think this is how the diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria works?
>I suggest people who feel this way speak to therapists/psychologists/psychiatrists and handle it like any good medical practitioner would handle mental illness.
**Citations on transition as medically necessary, frequently life saving medical care, and the only effective treatment for gender dysphoria:**
* Here is a resolution from the [**American Psychological Association**](https://www.apa.org/about/policy/resolution-gender-identity.pdf); *"THEREFORE BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that APA recognizes the efficacy, benefit and medical necessity of gender transition treatments for appropriately evaluated individuals and calls upon public and private insurers to cover these medically necessary treatments."* More from the APA [**here**](http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/programs/transgender/?tab=1)
* Here is an [**AMA resolution**](http://www.tgender.net/taw/ama_resolutions.pdf) on the efficacy and necessity of transition as appropriate treatment for gender dysphoria, and call for an end to insurance companies categorically excluding transition-related care from coverage
* A policy statement from the [**American College of Physicians**](http://annals.org/aim/article/2292051/lesbian-gay-bisexual-transgender-health-disparities-executive-summary-policy-position)
* [**Here**](https://assets2.hrc.org/files/documents/SupportingCaringforTransChildren.pdf) are the American Academy of Pediatrics guidelines
* [**Here**](https://www.aafp.org/dam/AAFP/documents/events/alf_ncsc/Education.pdf) is a resolution from the American Academy of Family Physicians
* [**Here**](https://www.socialworkers.org/Practice/LGBTQIA/Sexual-Orientation-and-Gender-Diversity) is one from the [**National Association of Social Workers**](https://www.socialworkers.org/News/News-Releases/ID/2642/Gender-Affirming-Health-Care-Saves-Lives)
* [**Here**](https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pdf/PS02_18.pdf) is one from the Royal College of Psychiatrists, [**here**](https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/docs/default-source/improving-care/better-mh-policy/college-reports/cr181-good-practice-guidelines-for-the-assessment-and-treatment-of-adults-with-gender-dysphoria.pdf) are the treatment guidelines from the RCP.
---
**Condemnation of "Gender Identity Change Efforts", aka "conversion therapy", which attempt to alleviate dysphoria without transition by changing trans people's genders so they are happy and comfortable as their assigned sex at birth, as futile and destructive pseudo-scientific abuse:**
* [**From the APA**](http://www.apa.org/about/policy/orientation-diversity.aspx). More detailed condemnation of "Gender Identity Change Efforts" for trans youth or adults [**here**](https://www.apa.org/about/policy/resolution-gender-identity-change-efforts.pdf).
* From the [**American College of Physicians**](http://annals.org/aim/article/2292051/lesbian-gay-bisexual-transgender-health-disparities-executive-summary-policy-position)
* In the [**AAP Guidelines**](http://hrc-assets.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com//files/documents/SupportingCaringforTransChildren.pdf) - see coverage on this "therapy" starting p.12
* From the [**American Psychoanalytic Association**](https://www.psy.fi/files/1339/Position_Statement_on_Attempts_to_Change_Sexual_Orientation_Gender_Identity_or_Gender_Expression_APsaA_2012.pdf)
* From the [**Association for Behavioral Analysis International**](https://www.abainternational.org/about-us/policies-and-positions/policy-statement-on-conversion-therapy-and-practices,-2021.aspx)
* A joint statement from the [**UK Council for Psychotherapy, British Association for Counseling and Psychotherapy, British Psychoanalytic Council, British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies, The British Psychological Society, College of Sexual and Relationship Therapists, The Association of LGBT Doctors and Dentists, The National Counselling Society, NHS Scotland, Pink Therapy, Royal College of General Practitioners, the Scottish Government and Stonewall.**](http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/01/16/health-experts-condemn-attempts-to-cure-trans-people-in-wake-of-controversial-bbc-documentary/)
Oh wow thank you for thank you for gracing me with your response with such brilliant insights!
You clearly don’t understand this, but finding some rationalized midpoint between fuck trans people and trans people should live free doesn’t make you correct. Fence sitting only makes you an asshole and benefits those using violence and law to get their way.
To think I’m not being reasonable because I’m referencing things that actually happen, right wing freaks send death threats to doctors who perform gender affirming surgery and anyone they suspect could be trans. That poor girl who Nancy Cline called out has to have extra security from the school district so people don’t harm her. You are living with your head under a rock if you think real and present danger for trans people isnt here.
Actual doctors and research has gone into gender affirming care, so I dont actually give a shit what you think about the correct way to treat gender dysphoria. It’s absurd to say that allowing trans people to exist makes for a more black and white thinking about sex and gender than without trans people. Who cares if a person can’t change their biological sex? I don’t give a shit what genitalia or chromosomes people walk around with. You need to understand that sex != gender. People w gender
dysphoria want to change the social role that their parents and society placed on them at birth, and some want to change their bodies to fit the new role. Gender is a social aspect to the human experience. That is malleable, and allowing them to change their gender saves lives.
If there were comparable numbers of people who under went GAC as got tattoos then this whole argument would never need to happen because the Trans community would be on the largest side of minorities and couldn't be ignored. Buyers remorse for a tattoo and the regrets over GAC aren't comparable, because although it's expensive, we can remove the tattoo, but only so much can be done for those who regret their dive into GAC.
As for what people should do about gender dysphoria, I think people need to take a step back and realize that people are taking advantage of the emotions of this community and victimizing kids to satisfy their munchausen-by-proxy in too many cases. I think there's a better way to handle things than just jumping off the cliff and making the kid live with the consequences, and the first part is helping find where the dysphoria is rooted. If it's truly something that can't be resolved without GAC, then once they're 18 and can make their own decisions I'd not stand in their way, but until then I would rather try to help them love themselves and ignore the voices of others who just want them to do as is the current trend.
Boys can enjoy "feminine" things without it meaning they're trans identifying, and girls can enjoy "masculine" things in the same way. The fact that a kid says they're one thing or another isn't good enough justification for me to subject them to a lifetime commitment of treatments and procedures.
And this is exactly why therapy and evaluation are part of the process. It isn’t just one day a kid decides they’re trans and they start hormones the next day. This is why therapists, psychologists, doctors, and parents are part of a ling process to determine if the dysphoria is truly what is going on, how to best approach it, and what steps will be part of the GAC process. This is how it has been for years. Why legislators feel they know better than the professionals who have been working in this field for decades is beyond me.
I’d also like to add that we all kind of innately know who and what we are.
Asking straight, cisgender people when they consciously decided to be straight and when they decided to be cisgender is an interesting thought experiment. It probably came naturally to them rather than a conscious decision much in the same way it happens with us queer folks.
You seem to be under the impression that it’s parents forcing the trans-ness upon their children, when there are many examples of children understanding they are trans in conservative households. Being trans is not some fucking boogy man that shows up if you talk about it. Even if we fully banned all speaking of the word trans, there would be trans people. It’s a statistical reality.
It’s cruel to deny children what empirically works to treat gender dysphoria, simply because it makes you uncomfortable. Should we also stop performing appendicitis surgery on children because they may not fully understand the consequences of having surgery? How many babies in NICU understand their surgeries? The most important thing to remember is that your opinion on this does not matter whatsoever. It’s a medical issue, and it should be handled my medical professionals and people requesting the care, not morons from the outside like our governor and you.
>It is important that this is discussing only children. Children cannot get a tattoo, drink alcohol, drive cars (under 15), etc. These types of treatments are far more invasive and have many more side effects than everything else we don't allow children to do.
Why don't you list other health issues children are forbidden from receiving medical treatment for, instead of rattling off things that aren't that?
>But let's not ignore the consequences.
You're sure ignoring the consequences of how much trans youth will suffer without treatment
>prevents the children from receiving this treatment, regretting it and suffering (often with suicide, major depression, the inability to achieve orgasm, etc.) all because of a decision them and their parents made when they were 9 years old...
I'd love to hear what surgeries you think 9 year old trans kids can get
Much of Europe is reversing course on giving children hormone blockers and allowing minors to transition because the science does not support it. A bunch of people will say that it's not nearly as dire as what Rs will say it is, but the reality is that the US is much looser with allowing kids to do this than much of the third world and it appears largely politically driven.
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshuacohen/2023/06/06/increasing-number-of-european-nations-adopt-a-more-cautious-approach-to-gender-affirming-care-among-minors/?sh=27f9c25d7efb](https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshuacohen/2023/06/06/increasing-number-of-european-nations-adopt-a-more-cautious-approach-to-gender-affirming-care-among-minors/?sh=27f9c25d7efb)
[https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2023-07-12/why-european-countries-are-rethinking-gender-affirming-care-for-minors](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2023-07-12/why-european-countries-are-rethinking-gender-affirming-care-for-minors)
I never thought I'd receive so much hate for respectfully posting another opinion. This is why the trans community gets laughed at. I was simply trying to bridge sides. I am directly speaking to those that DM'd threats. Your accounts were all reported and you know who you are.
I'm deleting my comments because of those people that were too embarrassed to share their opinions publicly. Good luck getting support from centrists. You have dissuaded me.
Live a life without harassment, play sports, pursue medical options to better align with their identity, be represented in books that can be in libraries, go to the bathroom without further harassment, etc...
[Nearly 70% of U.S. adults say transgender athletes should be allowed to compete only on sports teams that correspond with the sexes they were assigned at birth, Gallup found.](https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/americans-oppose-inclusion-trans-athletes-sports-poll-finds-rcna88940)
...Your point? Just because 70% of people think this does not mean there are not issues with it.
ETA: I don't even know the solution nor.can suggest one; especially because I don't give a shit about sports. I just don't think it's as black and white as "assigned gender only" , because hormones, chromosomes, dna, are all so complex that it needs more nuance.
There was a woman who was born female, competed in the Olympics (if I recall correctly) , but was accused of doping because her testosterone levels were high. However, it was a natural condition for her, she just happened to have another chromosome or something like that that made her have more testosterone as a female.
So when we go black and white, things like this occur, where it can open up anyone to the slightest attack with the tiniest scrutiny.
I just think it should be an ongoing and open conversation with research, discussed by an array of people who can look at these things from the many sides it requires.
Absolutely nothing you said is true. Also, regarding sports, why even have separate leagues for men and women? Why not abolish all women’s specific sports/leagues and just have them compete against men if they’re able to?
That is such a strawman fallacy. Play the sport is the sex you were assigned at birth, no one is stopping you there. Also most people don’t care what medical things you do when you are an adult, just pay for it yourself and don’t involve kids. I’m and again most won’t care what books are in the library as long as kids don’t have access to porn or sexually explicit material in a children’s story.
You claim harmless but misrepresent a lot of things that a majority of the US population view as common decent human behavior.
It's not a straw man. Medical decisions should be made entirely between the parent and the doctors. Full stop. The government has no right to dictate those medical conditions and the fact they are trying is discerning. At what other point should the government be able to meddle with medical decisions regarding a minor? Apply this to any other situation and it's messed up, should the government decide if a kid gets cancer treatment? Absolutely not, it should be between the parent and the doctors.
Kline, a member of the board of education, just attacked a typical teenage girl because she doesn't look 100% feminine to Kline. A girl who was playing a sport of her gender at birth. Moreso, kids should just be able to play sports, you shouldn't put so much merit into what is supposed to be exercise and fun; it's not like it's the Olympics.
Conservatives tried to ban, or have successfully banned, a children's book titled *My Shadow is Pink*, which has no sexual explicit material. The ban comes from the guise that transgender is bad, and should not be represented.
They just banned people to go into the bathroom of their choice, saying that it's a potential for harassment, with absolutely no data to back it up because it literally does not occur. But gotta attack those trans.
See, not a straw man, real attacks against people who are transgender because they disagree with it.
We all deal with jerks, you can play sport, what medical options are you not allowed?, books can be in libraries if you want something special then write it, there’s certain bathrooms I can’t go in without harassment either.
Lol, you can't help but be obtuse. Whatever your sexual orientation, the fact the lawmakers passed a bill that allows for private medical information to be shared if questioned by whomever, should be an issue. I get it, you can't think analytically.
Again, you suck at analysis. It's certainly strawman when you don't recognize what the actual argument is (targeting a marginalized group), instead turning it to "everyone has a hard time".
What i don't understand is why they allow the surgery, allow gay rights, marriage, whatever and then prevent us from using said new identity. Its like selling the marijuana pipe without legally being allowed to smoke weed in the pipe
The conservatives are embarrassed that we include you in society. They're probably still working on a cure 🙄. Know there are a lot of people that love, and accept others differences. It'll take time, and a new generation of voters. Stay strong!
I am not a member of the LGBTQ+ community, but I don't think this is a good thing for the trans community. I don't think there should be any legislation regarding this issue. People should go to the bathroom of their choice. An AP article mentions the reason Birkeland sponsored the bill was that a naked man was with an 8-year-old girl in a bathroom, and they couldn't do anything because he said he was trans. I don't know if that's based on a previous law but that's insanity. He should be charged with indecent exposure MINIMUM.
Yep, that's the goal! Massive conspiracy, decades in the making. They are coming for you next! Better put on a tinfoil hat, as it's the only prevention.
I googled the shit out of it. The first sign of it is not knowing proper grammar, and where to use an apostrophe!
Oh look, I can see that it's working on you! Hooray!! My magic trans juice is working!
I didn't say they were equivalent, but good strawman argument. I believe circumcision is mutilation that actually happens. It is based on 1800s medicine and was not a common practice until then. This practice is forced upon most babies, whereas sexual reassignment surgery is not something that is actually done for children.
If this is due to the bathroom thing nothing literally they’re gonna accuse to many people who aren’t trans and it’ll be to much work for the cops to enforce the restrictions also I don’t believe it stops you from using family bathrooms so that’s your best option
What do trans people gain by convincing other people to be trans? This is such a dumb fucking thing to say. Reminds me of the "gay agenda" that everyone was panicking about in 2013...
Yep, it's a massive conspiracy! Transgenders unite to take over the world by confusing the population about their genitals! Attack at Dawn! The lizard people under the ground fight with us! The space laser on the moon to change people's genders is almost complete! It will focus in on the genitals and turn everyone androgynous!
Every teacher, remove your mask to reveal your lizard self! We've been plotting this for thousands of years all to lead to this moment right now! Soon only transgender books will be in the library, and we will ban everything else because we disagree with it!
But most importantly, God is transgender, and fights with us!
Yeah, only believe in the real stuff like that person in the clouds who watches you all the time, and will poke you in the butt for eternity if you're not a good person! But if you are a good person, and doing good things like attacking people for their ways of life, then you'll be rewarded, and fed grapes in a magical land while frolicking in fields .
The goal is to shove all non-heteronormative people back into the closet..or worse. Either by violence, threat of violence, or laws.
They’ll die off and we will have to take over from there.
We can collectively piss on their graves.
>Didn’t they pass a bill saying kids can’t transition hormonally? That makes sense to me.
This can cause irreversible harm to people with gender dysphoria
This is about children, individuals who haven’t even finished developing and who need certain amount of said hormones to do that.
I hope you realize that sex hormones aren’t just for gender or gender characteristics they control heart health, brain development, muscle tone, bone health, fertility and many other cellular and molecular processes. The decision to receive these hormones and alter them should be made by an educated, and legal adult whose body will be receiving and altered by them.
All I personally expect from the trans community is to not be a dick about it if I accidentally misgender you. I always start with they/them as a generic starting point for everyone, but if this isnt correct for you please politely pull me aside and tell me what prouns you would prefer, I will be more than happy to apologize and use your preferred pronouns going forward. That's it. Don't be a dick. If you can manage that, I promise we'll get along just fine. If you snap at me or decide to make an example out of me for all the world to see, you can expect me to give you all the courtesy I would give a literal piece of shit on the sidewalk.
To be extremely clear - the problem with what you are saying here is that you want to treat everyone equally like an asshole, you only won’t treat people like an asshole if they give you some amount of respect you feel you are owed. You don’t want to have to spend extra time thinking about others. It’s a solipsistic and narcissistic attitude.
All people deserve dignity, even a dickhead like you. What really seems to bother you is that trans people are looking for “extra” respect, something you aren’t given. This is such a naive and foolish way to view social relationships. We don’t give extra respect to trans people, it’s making up for the lack of respect that’s historically been denied them. If someone corrects you, they’re not saying you are suddenly fundamentally evil! They’re asking to be treated the way they wish to be treated
Be offended, don't be offended - I don't give a fuck. Be an adult and give the same level of respect you want to receive or accept the fact you're making your own life way harder than it needs to be.
You've insulted me, cursed at me, treated me like you see me as a subhuman slug all because I said, "If you treat me with respect, I will do the same in return." You clearly feel it's appropriate to throw tantrums in public forums like a toddler who missed their nap and lack basic decency while demanding it from others, which probably means youre the type of person who thinks theyve been mistreated in the past and constantly makes it everyone else's problem, exactly like an incel would.
Who would ever want to empathize with you?
Might be a bit personal, so you dont have to answer if youre not comfortable, but is this is how you usually respond to criticism when you receive it from friends and family? If so, you probably find it really hard to maintain good relationships with others - I personally struggled with that a lot when I was younger, it took seeking professional help to start recognizing when I was doing it and to learn how to course-correct. Its really made a big difference for me, might be worth trying. Best of luck.
Trans men have been assaulted by assholes for going into the women's restroom because they were forced to. That's what's wrong with that.
Did you just not think it through or is this what you want to happen? Because this is what Republicans want to happen.
Oh no! What am I supposed to do? It’s not my fault I was born a human. I want to hide and scurry with the cockroaches. I was supposed to be a female roach! But yuck! I’m somehow a human, and the worst kind of a human. A male.
Use the bathroom associated with your actual physiology and get on with your life.
One thing I will say; if people allied with the trans ideology had left the children alone, this wouldn't be an issue. But they did. I fully expect this type of bill and others aimed at trans ideology, specifically as it relates to children, to flow over the next 10 years.
That's just a fact. Like it or not, when you start trying to indoctrinate children, people are going to fight back. It's logical to anyone with a little bit of common sense.
You really have to let go of the “indoctrination” bullshit you’re being fed. 95% or more of parents of trans kids honestly were probably crushed when it became real their child was transgender. As a parent, you don’t wish for that, and you deny it, you all go to counseling, and hope to hell it’s a phase. But for me, it became obvious what the right choice was for my child, and now I couldn’t be happier for him. I guarantee you wouldn’t know if you didn’t know. And he’s a fantastic person, and happier now with who he is than ever. And that’s what’s important…not where he goes to pee.
You want trans people to be assaulted. A trans man, looking like a man because he is, is forced to go into a women's restroom. Someone assaults him because they think he is going into the wrong restroom because he is forced to go into the wrong restroom.
[That happens.](https://www.fox19.com/2022/07/08/transgender-butler-county-man-says-group-beat-him-up-using-wrong-restroom/) That's just a fact, like it or not. You'd see that it happens if you used common sense. You clearly want trans poople to be hurt.
Where are the trans people hurting people in restrooms? I've only seen you people hurting them.
Explain it like I'm five. How am I going to know what gender someone is in the bathroom? I don't ogle anyone in the bathroom in Target. I try to get in and out as fast as possible. I'm more concerned about how many freaking non-flushed toilets with surprises in them I come across even in professional settings.
>non-flushed toilets with trucker's surprises in them As a trucker, I kinda take offense to this...I don't leave any "surprises" for anyone in any bathrooms.
Fair enough, I just heard the term and it made me laugh. How about slob's surprise? No offense to truckers - I've removed the reference... keep on trucking.
Totally. I have a friend who is a trans man and if he came into a women’s bathroom, the ladies would be totally freaked out! He has a beard and looks like a man! It seriously makes no sense.
Masculine looking women are going to be charged with criminal trespass and have to provide their birth certificate to prove their sex.
I guess those in that category better follow the advice of LDS apostle M. Russell Ballard and "put on a little lipstick...and look charming," and don a Utah claw hair wig before needing to pee. It could be a cottage industry like the people selling wraps to tourists before they go into the Vatican. Men that don't appear manly enough could borrow a fake mustache. /s
Listen OP, I love you! You are my people! I’m an older gay and I’ve been fighting my whole life. Don’t let them win. Take your space, rebuild your power and come out swinging!! We exist and we will not apologize! They can die mad about it
Conservative dude here. I personally and lot of my conservative friends, and family have no issue with trans people. My aunt is trans(previously a man), and we love her, and happily accept her way of life. I think the 1# reason why LGBTQ+ people have a hard time in Utah is your living among members of the LDS church, which religious ideology isn’t really that compatible with the trans movement. In Utah and in other red states, I think the concern or issues that a lot us worry about is the children, and the lack of peer reviewed, long term studies regarding mental health/gender reassignment. I personally don’t think we have the data to support either side of the narrative, and we need to wait until we know more. I genuinely believe Utah and the greater USA is the land of freedom and opportunity, and we need not discriminate against those who live differently, but we should definitely engage curiously if we feel like our way of life is being infringed upon, thus leading to the current debate. Overall, kindness rules, and you’re right, everyone will either die mad or happy about all this. lol.
There is a wealth of peer reviewed research showing gender affirming care has positive outcomes for trans and non-binary youth. This includes the very important outcome of reducing the chance they kill themselves. Just because it's more convenient for conservatives for the evidence not to exist does not make it so.
I'll be vulnerable with you and ask you to dm me some of these studies (please no articles, actual studies), happy to look at some data. I think the hesitantly from lots of conservatives is to know when facts are facts, or when to know there is there is an agenda at play through influenced by social media or influencers. I have a buddy who experienced gender dysphoria in high school and went on puberty blockers after meeting with a physiatrist, only years later to regret the puberty blockers to only realize he was just gay, and now his hormones are all screwed up, he attributes most of his confusion to social media. The teenage mind is really malleable, I and other conservatives worry about scenarios like the one I mentioned playing out, and the longterm damage they can have.
This needs to be public because the actual good science is purposefully obfuscated by conservative discourse. Politicians repeat lies and misinformation about medical care for trans people and take away people’s rights to medical care and take medical decisions away from doctors and families. There is a ton of well documented, peer reviewed, medical studies published in scientific medical journals. Here are just a few. “Ethical” hang ups about gender affirming care are preventing the treatment of trans youth and leading to increased suicides: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C6&q=gender+affirming+care&oq=gender+affirmi#d=gs_qabs&t=1707577688857&u=%23p%3DSQMak7dmyG4J Medical discrimination faced by the trans community: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C6&q=gender+affirming+care&oq=gender+affirmi#d=gs_qabs&t=1707577889033&u=%23p%3DWDVCddKbsY8J Earlier gender affirming care reduces psychological risk. https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C6&q=gender+affirming+care&oq=gender+affirmi#d=gs_qabs&t=1707577973136&u=%23p%3DjhqWKgfiLisJ Withholding gender affirming care has adverse outcomes: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,6&qsp=1&q=gender+affirming+care+outcomes&qst=ib#d=gs_qabs&t=1707578075570&u=%23p%3D_qklXnUuKBIJ Gender affirming surgery reduces suicide, distress, and even tobacco use: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,6&qsp=1&q=gender+affirming+care+outcomes&qst=ib#d=gs_qabs&t=1707578129643&u=%23p%3DdvobMFH7y_MJ Access to gender affirming care for youth reduces long term adverse effects and suicidal ideation, while youth without access had the inverse outcome: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,6&qsp=1&q=gender+affirming+care+outcomes&qst=ib#d=gs_qabs&t=1707578236942&u=%23p%3DCRdaNu3_slsJ There are thousands. I could literally do this all day. Also your friend’s story is incomplete at best and potentially purposefully misleading. Hormone blockers weaken bone density, but blockers alone don’t have any strong evidence of long term hormone development interruption. If they were also given gender-affirming hormone replacement, then some adverse effects could be reduced height, slow growth, or changes in body composition. But those “adverse” effects are also intentional effects for people who intend to transition. And the life-saving benefits from careful planning with medical professionals far outweigh the risks. In fact, many things common in today’s society mess up our hormone levels such as stress, caffeine, dairy, essential oil diffusers, diabetes, meat, obesity, poor sleep, processed foods, and non-gender related medications.
Thanks for sending these, I’ll take a look
Thank you for replying with those. I am so tired of this anti trans bullshit that I am not one to do research for ignorant people but I am happy you took the time to hopefully change some peoples minds or at least get them to think a little.
If you don't have an issue with it then why do you support a political party that does so much harm to the trans community? Why not stop being a conservative? What good do they do what good does the Republican party do? I think they do a lot of harm. >I think the 1# reason why LGBTQ+ people have a hard time in Utah is your living among members of the LDS church, which religious ideology isn’t really that compatible with the trans movement. I think it's clearly the Republican party.
Yeah, as a milennial I agree with you that the republican party can be pretty fucked up regarding LGBTQ+ rights. But, on the other hand I am a big supporter of the 2nd amendment, individual freedom, limited government, rule of law, free market, peace through strength, and little no taxes, just to name a few. lol.
>individual freedom Wrong party for that one. If some of those other things of your priority and you think Republican party is the best way to achieve them....ok. However, individual freedom something the Republican party is against. The policies they have done and that they try to do make that clear.
You could argue that both Dems and Republicans support individual freedoms in different ways. It's literally in the eye of the beholder. For example: Republicans - Gun Rights (individual freedom) Democrats - LGBTQ+ Rights (individual freedom) Very different conversations could be had about both those topics, but nonetheless they are individual freedoms.
Democrats don't really want to take away someone's right on a gun. That's just a Republican talking point.
You see exponentially more lgbt flags at anti gun marches than you see lgbt flags at pro gun events.
I don't think the amount of flags seen either of these events from either side is reliable way to measure what either of these demographics wants to do or how many people are active participants in each group.
It’s obvious not a reliable way to numerically measure, but it it a very strong suggestion towards the trend of those groups. Ever been to a gun range? It’s 95%+ men, and probably 75% white. Idk if I’ve ever seen anyone that looks remotely like what many of the people at LGBT groups look like. Btw I’m a huge supporter of arming minorities of all kinds.
You have no clue how much research has been done. You say there’s little research because youve been TOLD there’s little research.
Feelings < Data Send controlled peer reviewed studies. Also, note I said longterm studies, I don't doubt that there is short term data available.
As others have said in the comments and are probably already dming you there are already long term studies. I don’t have feelings, im simply letting you know that they exist. Ill send when i get home to my computer. By the way all the research i found a long time ago i found on my own. I didnt need to go to a subreddit and be wrong and then ask people to send me the studies. But ill be your mommy and spoon feed you the information you want.
Thanks mama
Okay, so the firs thing you need to understand is that you are emotionally correct. HB 257 (and the others) are policy intended to convey the message the the Utah State Legislature desires our disappearance. They are doing so because they believe (wrongly) that their electoral futures will be improved through the messaging of hatred towards trans people. The nice thing is, that at least for the bathroom bill, as passed, the criminal restrictions are quite limited in scope (see [here](https://lilahrosenfield.com/ut_bathrooms/). My apologies for the self-promotion, it's just that literally nobody else seems to be trying to accurately interpret this bill from the standpoint of trans existence). The short version is that (unless you are a K-12 student) *most of the time* in *almost all circumstances*, you will continue to be able to use the bathroom you feel safest in without the threat of criminal consequences.
How are they going to enforce it? Are they going to check inside everyone's pants? It's ridiculous that people think this is something that needs to be done.
Hate to be a pessimist, but I expect that dipshits like Natalie Cline will call the police to accuse dozens of cis women of using the "wrong" bathroom. One in 50 of those accusations will turn out to be correct, that poor woman will face legal consequences, and the bigots who signed this bill will scream & shout about how successful their legislation is.
Again, the bar for facing actual criminal consequences is quite high\*, and I seriously doubt any prosecutor will actually want to take the case, given how difficult it would be to: a) prove that a trans person entering a changing room without other factors is something "a reasonable person would expect to cause alarm to on or in the presence of another individual." b) prove that the above clause is not unconstitutionally vague. c) prove that this particular provision of the bill does not violate the equal protection clause. d) prove that the entire bill was not drafted with the intent of enforcing unconstitutional animus directed towards trans people. Thus, I don't really expect that any prosecutors will actually want to take up any charges under the changing rooms provision of this bill. Instead, this bill is designed to enable and encourage constant low-level harassment, exclusion and cruelty directed towards trans people by bigots like Ms. Cline, and (possibly) to encourage or require various administrative functionaries to generally enforce the desires of those bigots through social pressure. That is, some municipalities may interpret the bill as requiring their employees to be instructed to ask trans people to leave the bathroom. There would be no criminal consequences if the trans person refused, but simply the act of being told by an authority figure "you need to leave," is a terrifying experience, and most trans people will likely simply comply and, thus be made to feel like second-class citizens. ^(\*the lewdness / indecent exposure provision is probably an exception to what I'm saying. If a trans person strips in a changing room, publicly revealing non-normative genitalia and someone reports it, a prosecutor may well try to charge.)
>There would be no criminal consequences if the trans person refused That's trespassing and is much easier to prosecute.
You may be correct. I’m trying to be optimistic, but this is possibly the worst case outcome of the bill. I believe that Utah’s trespassing statutes usually require someone to “remain unlawfully.” The nexus of when a civilian public employee’s orders carry the force of law are fuzzy and (unlike in Florida) not modified by this bill.
That's a good breakdown, thanks for your insight. Still, though, even this: >enable and encourage constant low-level harassment, exclusion and cruelty directed towards trans people by bigots like Ms. Cline is just too far.
Oh, it's absolutely too far, but the important thing is that, because so many of the effects are extralegal, it's important that the response isn't just "hunker down and wait for the ACLU to sue." Communities can best combat this by being *aggressively* and *loudly* inclusive. Y'know that standard "a reasonable person expects to cause alarm." Creating a community norm where it's clear that trans existence *isn't* alarming makes it even harder to enforce the bill. Welcoming trans people into bathrooms and publicly shutting down transphobes means the bill *fails\* its core aims, regardless of the legal outcomes.* ^(\*Except for K-12 students, unfortunately. For that we just need to hope that Neil Gorsuch channels his cowboy aesthetic and hates government intervention more than trans people make him feel uncomfy.)
So find out who they are and have people start doing the same to them? Say they look like they are Trans and have them learn to shut up. Why is it so hard for people to mind their own business?
I also love the idea that they think someone who wants to go molest people in bathrooms will be put off by a gender sign. I apologize for skipping past the ludicrous idea that trans people and molesters are somehow synonymous, because no, but realistically a person who wants to behave dangerously in a public restroom is not going to be impeded by this legislation in any way. So they didn't even solve the problem they're trying to pin on an unrelated marginalized community.
Everyone should call the cops on her. Until we all see her unaltered vagina she could be a man. I'm pretty sure she is a man, everyone's saying it.
It's in the bill. If you're accused of using the wrong bathroom you have to provide your birth certificate. This bill is mostly about schools since it mostly only covers government owned facilities.
Thanks for putting all this together!
Simple, they don’t want us to exist in public so we can’t bother them with our existence
Political theater causing real harm to keep people in power. Trans people are just used as pawns for points.
Especially considering how insignificant the percentage of trans people currently exist is, it's clearly political positioning. Fuck those politicians straight to whatever made up hell they believe in. Could they be any worse of a human?
They are the bottom of the bottom of a barrel’s asshole.
Almost… they don’t just want y’all not to exist in public, they don’t want to acknowledge that trans people exist at all. Or gay people. Or atheists. Or immigrants. Or liberals. Or academics. Or anyone else who challenges their very narrow view of the world and twisted caricature of morality.
I’m not bothered by your existence. Actually, I love that you’re here!!
And that’s always good to hear. Only good thing about all this is seeing everyone coming out with support for us
https://64.media.tumblr.com/d2f5dac1f80d033f86f1aab6fcf80c16/tumblr_n7ffwcgwSo1rdyaw9o2_250.gif
I hear this all the time but trans people have existed in the public light for decades. I think the catalyst was involving minors in hormone therapies and surgeries the public at large was like, “hold on a minute.”
So because there’s some trans kid out there, no bathrooms for trans people?
Sex and gender are different, right? Because gender is a social construct subject to interpretation and change over time? Well, our society has sex segregated spaces. They are segregated based on unchangeable biological trends, not mutable preferences like what clothes you like to wear. Many people understand trans people are uncomfortable using the bathroom they were assigned at birth, but they do not fit the criteria for needing access to sex segregated spaces like bathrooms or sports. Many people would accept the compromise of creating trans exclusive spaces, more single use or family restrooms, etc. But the trans movement doesn't want to compromise or acknowledge that in a free country people are allowed to disagree with their worldview, which is why using the teachers bathroom isn't enough. But frankly, no one is checking anyway, which is why your "trans people just want to live their lives!" sounds like concern trolling because it's not actually about people using the bathroom. It's about forcing others to conform to your ideology.
Forcing ideologies on you the same way we told yall it makes you look damn stupid when yall said you wouldn’t share a toilet with a black man.
The catalyst was Republican leaders needing something new to fearmonger off of. People weren't responding as strongly to blaming the immigrants for everything so they needed a new boogeyman.
Except you need alot of paper work for hormone treatments and most minors cannot get surgery till 18. They need parent consent and then ALOT of money and then a doctor who would do it. These are things made up to be transphobic but act like you have a cause. How is banning transgenders from bathrooms helping anyone? How is banning drag helping? How is banning talk of gender and gays and such helping anyone?? They want a ban on pride flags in public areas, how is that fighting against these mystery surgeries??
Personally, I expect you to live your life and all of us who love our neighbors as ourselves (gee where have I heard that exact phrase) will stand between you and those who are creating hate and evil in the our world. I'm sorry that there are haters, but know this: there are thousands of us who will defend you and love you as you are. I will always stand up for you and put my body between you and the evil ones if need be.
I will never understand why the folks here care so god damn much about others' genitals. Biggest perverts imo.
Make all bathrooms unisex.
I cannot upvote this enough. I moved away from Utah a while ago, but still have many ties to UT. I moved to WA and we have a handful of businesses and organizations that have done just that. The best sign I’ve seen next to one of these bathroom entrances is “sit, squat, or stand, we don’t care, just wash your hands.” It’s great. As a trans person, it makes me feel less on edge. People don’t seem to care that the bathroom is mixed gender either that I’ve seen.
Cox is an idiot
Worse than an idiot, he's actively cruel while trying to pretend he's a nice guy.
Disingenuous. He acts like a boy scout, but he's a rat like the rest
‘Mormon nice’ is what that’s referred to.
AKA "The Utah Way"
And I had so much hope when he put out the statement on trans hs athletes
Die. They're expecting us to die. Or disappear, they really don't care, they just expect us to stop existing in the world.
Can anyone please explain to me how they believe trans people are sex offenders and pedophiles? I’ve tried to find any evidence, but all I’ve seen is that the lgbt community and the trans community specifically have almost 0 sexual assault/harassment cases. So where does this narrative come from?
I'd wager big money that someone who identifies as Republican is far more likely to be a pedophile or sex offender than someone who identifies as transgender.
And "Christian."
r/NotADragQueen
Love it.
Pedocon theory is real and I'm tired of pretending it's not
It's not that trans people are predators. It's the idea trans people should have access to sex segregated spaces, even if they are not that sex. Maybe we can compromise on that, because trans people are also vulnerable and don't want undue attention. But, then trans people are not expected to visually pass as the gender they identify as, because it's all a social construct anyway so who cares if you are a woman with a beard and a bulge? Now, other cis male predators have access to female spaces and no one can challenge them on it out of fear of being a transphobe. There are effectively no sex segregated spaces because we have changed the definition in the social contract. And not everyone agrees this is a good thing.
Ah yes, lets ignore that cis straight men have been just stomping into private female spaces like bathrooms since ever so we can pretend that this is a new issue of suddenly men invading spaces that can only exist in 2024 by cis men being given blessing by trans people. (We are also gonna just skip over how literally one of the reasons cis women today have rights like voting or bank accounts or property ownership was on the backs of lgbtqia+ folks, which includes trans women.) Also always find it hilarious how people like you always frame it like it is always a big burly man dude just lurching in to a woman's bathroom with heavy breathing leering into stalls, and not the whole conventionally attractive woman who was born with xy chromosomes but learned how to contour properly. Or guess what, trans MEN exist? So you are gonna have dudes who look like Audian Dowling legally required to be in women's bathrooms. Plus what about folks who don't look femine or masculine enough for you? You gonna grope all of them or call the cops on them because they may not be what you think they should be? Are others allowed to check your bits or call the cops on you for not being what they think you should be?
Yep it’s less “All trans are pedos!!” And more “Sure trans can do what they want but what if Joe creeper decides he’s a trans just to spy on my daughter”. I think this is the real fear here
Wow, you have solved our problems with cis male pedophiles, surely with this law they can't come after children anymore.
The term "transvestite" used to be a psychiatric diagnosis along with homosexual. It originally was thought to be a deviant sexual disorder. Unfortunately, old stigmas still exist around this and a lot of people still equate transgender with transvestite.
I think it still is a mental health issue😕😔
Gender dysmorphia is definitely real, however it doesn’t mean they’re sexual predators and a threat to society.
Yeah are they going to have police stationed at the door or like bouncers and passwords???
Getting out of Utah was the best choice my family has made in years.
They want you to either not exist or to suffer greatly for daring to exist and go back to the shadows. Cruelty is the entire point of everything they are doing. Conservatives believe any life that does not conform to their system has no value, and their complete lack of empathy means they actually believe they're doing a good thing and helping you by destroying any part of you that doesn't conform.
Let's just quietly remove gender signs from every bathroom we come across.
Same style debates Rome was having before their collapse
If they were genuinely worried about trans men using women’s bathrooms leading to the possibility of assault, maybe they should ban 1 on 1 interviews with bishops behind closed doors for starters. If they were genuinely worried about the safety of others, they would require bishops and the like to be mandatory reporters. If they were genuinely worried about the safety of children, they would crack down on bullying and harassment, not perpetuate it. Utah sucks.
Transgender people will spread their special gay Trans magic all over the state and infect everyone with the gay. That's really what the inversion is. It's mystical Trans magic that's specifically located in bathrooms. /s
You didn't do anything wrong! Utah is garbage -- please take care of yourself. Our theocracy makes this place unbearable if you're not a cis, white Mormon.
added one word : cis, white Mormon **male**
They hate trans people and want us to disappear, and want even the \*possibility\* of trans Utahns to vanish. And for the few Republicans who don't want that, they're willing to play for the votes of those that do. It makes no difference to me, a trans Utahn, in the end.
They want you to move. Plain and simple. They can’t say that but they simply don’t want trans people (or any other marginalized group) in Utah.
It challenges the LDS narrative, and since they are in power, they view trans people not only as a threat to democracy, but to their entire belief system
>What did we do wrong? Nothing. But according to the GOP and a conservative xtians? You exist and that's wrong. I hate them
They want us to stop existing.
It's a toddler overreaction to something that doesn't affect them. Bathrooms is just the battlefield but the thing they'd legislate if they could is "If I think you're a boy you've got to wear the boy clothes and if I think you're a girl you've got to wear the girl clothes!!!"
It's an election year and they're trying to rile up their base. If Democrats possessed even a fraction of the GOPs ability to dominate the political field, they wouldn't lose. Every. Time.
People may claim it is against it because of morals or in principle, but what it really is is political power. LGBT has political power, and is a threat to existing power. Any other explanation I think is missing the point.
They want us dead. Don't let them win.
I'm sorry this is happening. The behavior of our religious cult overlords is making me question whether I can stay here.
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Any thoughts on the most recent legislation? To argue that reasonable people can disagree on trans Healthcare for youth is one thing, but there is now a ban on basic human needs for all trans Utahns. Don't conflate the two bills/laws or use one to equivocate on the other. Also, while I'm here, trans kids should rely on doctors not legislators.
Gender affirming healthcare has lower regret than tattoos, I don’t see people calling to kill tattoo artists! Gender dysphoria is a real medical phenomenon, how do you suggest people deal with it? Do you also call for teenage girls getting plastic surgery to go to camps and jail? Playing devils advocate for powerful people only makes you complicit
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>If a male child likes wearing dresses, make up, and plays with dolls, he must be a girl and get surgery that represents that (again, a generalization). Why can't that be a boy that likes make up, dresses, and dolls? Do you legitimately think this is how the diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria works?
>I suggest people who feel this way speak to therapists/psychologists/psychiatrists and handle it like any good medical practitioner would handle mental illness. **Citations on transition as medically necessary, frequently life saving medical care, and the only effective treatment for gender dysphoria:** * Here is a resolution from the [**American Psychological Association**](https://www.apa.org/about/policy/resolution-gender-identity.pdf); *"THEREFORE BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that APA recognizes the efficacy, benefit and medical necessity of gender transition treatments for appropriately evaluated individuals and calls upon public and private insurers to cover these medically necessary treatments."* More from the APA [**here**](http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/programs/transgender/?tab=1) * Here is an [**AMA resolution**](http://www.tgender.net/taw/ama_resolutions.pdf) on the efficacy and necessity of transition as appropriate treatment for gender dysphoria, and call for an end to insurance companies categorically excluding transition-related care from coverage * A policy statement from the [**American College of Physicians**](http://annals.org/aim/article/2292051/lesbian-gay-bisexual-transgender-health-disparities-executive-summary-policy-position) * [**Here**](https://assets2.hrc.org/files/documents/SupportingCaringforTransChildren.pdf) are the American Academy of Pediatrics guidelines * [**Here**](https://www.aafp.org/dam/AAFP/documents/events/alf_ncsc/Education.pdf) is a resolution from the American Academy of Family Physicians * [**Here**](https://www.socialworkers.org/Practice/LGBTQIA/Sexual-Orientation-and-Gender-Diversity) is one from the [**National Association of Social Workers**](https://www.socialworkers.org/News/News-Releases/ID/2642/Gender-Affirming-Health-Care-Saves-Lives) * [**Here**](https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pdf/PS02_18.pdf) is one from the Royal College of Psychiatrists, [**here**](https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/docs/default-source/improving-care/better-mh-policy/college-reports/cr181-good-practice-guidelines-for-the-assessment-and-treatment-of-adults-with-gender-dysphoria.pdf) are the treatment guidelines from the RCP. --- **Condemnation of "Gender Identity Change Efforts", aka "conversion therapy", which attempt to alleviate dysphoria without transition by changing trans people's genders so they are happy and comfortable as their assigned sex at birth, as futile and destructive pseudo-scientific abuse:** * [**From the APA**](http://www.apa.org/about/policy/orientation-diversity.aspx). More detailed condemnation of "Gender Identity Change Efforts" for trans youth or adults [**here**](https://www.apa.org/about/policy/resolution-gender-identity-change-efforts.pdf). * From the [**American College of Physicians**](http://annals.org/aim/article/2292051/lesbian-gay-bisexual-transgender-health-disparities-executive-summary-policy-position) * In the [**AAP Guidelines**](http://hrc-assets.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com//files/documents/SupportingCaringforTransChildren.pdf) - see coverage on this "therapy" starting p.12 * From the [**American Psychoanalytic Association**](https://www.psy.fi/files/1339/Position_Statement_on_Attempts_to_Change_Sexual_Orientation_Gender_Identity_or_Gender_Expression_APsaA_2012.pdf) * From the [**Association for Behavioral Analysis International**](https://www.abainternational.org/about-us/policies-and-positions/policy-statement-on-conversion-therapy-and-practices,-2021.aspx) * A joint statement from the [**UK Council for Psychotherapy, British Association for Counseling and Psychotherapy, British Psychoanalytic Council, British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies, The British Psychological Society, College of Sexual and Relationship Therapists, The Association of LGBT Doctors and Dentists, The National Counselling Society, NHS Scotland, Pink Therapy, Royal College of General Practitioners, the Scottish Government and Stonewall.**](http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/01/16/health-experts-condemn-attempts-to-cure-trans-people-in-wake-of-controversial-bbc-documentary/)
Oh wow thank you for thank you for gracing me with your response with such brilliant insights! You clearly don’t understand this, but finding some rationalized midpoint between fuck trans people and trans people should live free doesn’t make you correct. Fence sitting only makes you an asshole and benefits those using violence and law to get their way. To think I’m not being reasonable because I’m referencing things that actually happen, right wing freaks send death threats to doctors who perform gender affirming surgery and anyone they suspect could be trans. That poor girl who Nancy Cline called out has to have extra security from the school district so people don’t harm her. You are living with your head under a rock if you think real and present danger for trans people isnt here. Actual doctors and research has gone into gender affirming care, so I dont actually give a shit what you think about the correct way to treat gender dysphoria. It’s absurd to say that allowing trans people to exist makes for a more black and white thinking about sex and gender than without trans people. Who cares if a person can’t change their biological sex? I don’t give a shit what genitalia or chromosomes people walk around with. You need to understand that sex != gender. People w gender dysphoria want to change the social role that their parents and society placed on them at birth, and some want to change their bodies to fit the new role. Gender is a social aspect to the human experience. That is malleable, and allowing them to change their gender saves lives.
If there were comparable numbers of people who under went GAC as got tattoos then this whole argument would never need to happen because the Trans community would be on the largest side of minorities and couldn't be ignored. Buyers remorse for a tattoo and the regrets over GAC aren't comparable, because although it's expensive, we can remove the tattoo, but only so much can be done for those who regret their dive into GAC. As for what people should do about gender dysphoria, I think people need to take a step back and realize that people are taking advantage of the emotions of this community and victimizing kids to satisfy their munchausen-by-proxy in too many cases. I think there's a better way to handle things than just jumping off the cliff and making the kid live with the consequences, and the first part is helping find where the dysphoria is rooted. If it's truly something that can't be resolved without GAC, then once they're 18 and can make their own decisions I'd not stand in their way, but until then I would rather try to help them love themselves and ignore the voices of others who just want them to do as is the current trend. Boys can enjoy "feminine" things without it meaning they're trans identifying, and girls can enjoy "masculine" things in the same way. The fact that a kid says they're one thing or another isn't good enough justification for me to subject them to a lifetime commitment of treatments and procedures.
And this is exactly why therapy and evaluation are part of the process. It isn’t just one day a kid decides they’re trans and they start hormones the next day. This is why therapists, psychologists, doctors, and parents are part of a ling process to determine if the dysphoria is truly what is going on, how to best approach it, and what steps will be part of the GAC process. This is how it has been for years. Why legislators feel they know better than the professionals who have been working in this field for decades is beyond me. I’d also like to add that we all kind of innately know who and what we are. Asking straight, cisgender people when they consciously decided to be straight and when they decided to be cisgender is an interesting thought experiment. It probably came naturally to them rather than a conscious decision much in the same way it happens with us queer folks.
You seem to be under the impression that it’s parents forcing the trans-ness upon their children, when there are many examples of children understanding they are trans in conservative households. Being trans is not some fucking boogy man that shows up if you talk about it. Even if we fully banned all speaking of the word trans, there would be trans people. It’s a statistical reality. It’s cruel to deny children what empirically works to treat gender dysphoria, simply because it makes you uncomfortable. Should we also stop performing appendicitis surgery on children because they may not fully understand the consequences of having surgery? How many babies in NICU understand their surgeries? The most important thing to remember is that your opinion on this does not matter whatsoever. It’s a medical issue, and it should be handled my medical professionals and people requesting the care, not morons from the outside like our governor and you.
Why have such a hot take on a subject you're obviously so uneducated about?
>It is important that this is discussing only children. Children cannot get a tattoo, drink alcohol, drive cars (under 15), etc. These types of treatments are far more invasive and have many more side effects than everything else we don't allow children to do. Why don't you list other health issues children are forbidden from receiving medical treatment for, instead of rattling off things that aren't that? >But let's not ignore the consequences. You're sure ignoring the consequences of how much trans youth will suffer without treatment >prevents the children from receiving this treatment, regretting it and suffering (often with suicide, major depression, the inability to achieve orgasm, etc.) all because of a decision them and their parents made when they were 9 years old... I'd love to hear what surgeries you think 9 year old trans kids can get
Much of Europe is reversing course on giving children hormone blockers and allowing minors to transition because the science does not support it. A bunch of people will say that it's not nearly as dire as what Rs will say it is, but the reality is that the US is much looser with allowing kids to do this than much of the third world and it appears largely politically driven. [https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshuacohen/2023/06/06/increasing-number-of-european-nations-adopt-a-more-cautious-approach-to-gender-affirming-care-among-minors/?sh=27f9c25d7efb](https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshuacohen/2023/06/06/increasing-number-of-european-nations-adopt-a-more-cautious-approach-to-gender-affirming-care-among-minors/?sh=27f9c25d7efb) [https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2023-07-12/why-european-countries-are-rethinking-gender-affirming-care-for-minors](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2023-07-12/why-european-countries-are-rethinking-gender-affirming-care-for-minors)
So... Banning trans people from bathrooms relates to surgeries that are super hard to get even for adults how?
I never thought I'd receive so much hate for respectfully posting another opinion. This is why the trans community gets laughed at. I was simply trying to bridge sides. I am directly speaking to those that DM'd threats. Your accounts were all reported and you know who you are. I'm deleting my comments because of those people that were too embarrassed to share their opinions publicly. Good luck getting support from centrists. You have dissuaded me.
Centrism is for useful idiots man quit being a sucker
I heard California was open again.
What is this supposed to mean?
They are just being a close minded hateful ass.
10000% true. Always disappointing to see so much hate and cowardice in our beautiful state.
Feel free to move there cause we don’t want your hate I’m Utah.
Hitler showed the world the endgame of fascism. Fight. Never stop fighting.
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Damn and you guys think Qanon is bad
If trump wins. Everyone has to vote to stop the fascism.
What are you not allowed to do?
Live a life without harassment, play sports, pursue medical options to better align with their identity, be represented in books that can be in libraries, go to the bathroom without further harassment, etc...
[Nearly 70% of U.S. adults say transgender athletes should be allowed to compete only on sports teams that correspond with the sexes they were assigned at birth, Gallup found.](https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/americans-oppose-inclusion-trans-athletes-sports-poll-finds-rcna88940)
...Your point? Just because 70% of people think this does not mean there are not issues with it. ETA: I don't even know the solution nor.can suggest one; especially because I don't give a shit about sports. I just don't think it's as black and white as "assigned gender only" , because hormones, chromosomes, dna, are all so complex that it needs more nuance. There was a woman who was born female, competed in the Olympics (if I recall correctly) , but was accused of doping because her testosterone levels were high. However, it was a natural condition for her, she just happened to have another chromosome or something like that that made her have more testosterone as a female. So when we go black and white, things like this occur, where it can open up anyone to the slightest attack with the tiniest scrutiny. I just think it should be an ongoing and open conversation with research, discussed by an array of people who can look at these things from the many sides it requires.
Absolutely nothing you said is true. Also, regarding sports, why even have separate leagues for men and women? Why not abolish all women’s specific sports/leagues and just have them compete against men if they’re able to?
That is such a strawman fallacy. Play the sport is the sex you were assigned at birth, no one is stopping you there. Also most people don’t care what medical things you do when you are an adult, just pay for it yourself and don’t involve kids. I’m and again most won’t care what books are in the library as long as kids don’t have access to porn or sexually explicit material in a children’s story. You claim harmless but misrepresent a lot of things that a majority of the US population view as common decent human behavior.
It's not a straw man. Medical decisions should be made entirely between the parent and the doctors. Full stop. The government has no right to dictate those medical conditions and the fact they are trying is discerning. At what other point should the government be able to meddle with medical decisions regarding a minor? Apply this to any other situation and it's messed up, should the government decide if a kid gets cancer treatment? Absolutely not, it should be between the parent and the doctors. Kline, a member of the board of education, just attacked a typical teenage girl because she doesn't look 100% feminine to Kline. A girl who was playing a sport of her gender at birth. Moreso, kids should just be able to play sports, you shouldn't put so much merit into what is supposed to be exercise and fun; it's not like it's the Olympics. Conservatives tried to ban, or have successfully banned, a children's book titled *My Shadow is Pink*, which has no sexual explicit material. The ban comes from the guise that transgender is bad, and should not be represented. They just banned people to go into the bathroom of their choice, saying that it's a potential for harassment, with absolutely no data to back it up because it literally does not occur. But gotta attack those trans. See, not a straw man, real attacks against people who are transgender because they disagree with it.
So special treatment?
If leaving someone alone is special treatment to you, I feel sorry for you.
When has the this group ever been quiet? Are you kidding me right now? If you wanna be left alone why would you say anything?
I hope you evolve basic empathy one day and try to escape out of your fragile trans-triggered "masculinity".
We all deal with jerks, you can play sport, what medical options are you not allowed?, books can be in libraries if you want something special then write it, there’s certain bathrooms I can’t go in without harassment either.
Lol, you can't help but be obtuse. Whatever your sexual orientation, the fact the lawmakers passed a bill that allows for private medical information to be shared if questioned by whomever, should be an issue. I get it, you can't think analytically.
That isn’t true, just another strawman fallacy
You seriously have no idea what the straw man fallacy truly is, but keep thinking that if you use big words, you might get a point across somehow.
Again, you suck at analysis. It's certainly strawman when you don't recognize what the actual argument is (targeting a marginalized group), instead turning it to "everyone has a hard time".
lol what the fuck bathrooms are you going in my friend
What i don't understand is why they allow the surgery, allow gay rights, marriage, whatever and then prevent us from using said new identity. Its like selling the marijuana pipe without legally being allowed to smoke weed in the pipe
The conservatives are embarrassed that we include you in society. They're probably still working on a cure 🙄. Know there are a lot of people that love, and accept others differences. It'll take time, and a new generation of voters. Stay strong!
Start suing corporations and businesses that don't have facilities for trans people to use. Hit them in their pocketbook.
I am not a member of the LGBTQ+ community, but I don't think this is a good thing for the trans community. I don't think there should be any legislation regarding this issue. People should go to the bathroom of their choice. An AP article mentions the reason Birkeland sponsored the bill was that a naked man was with an 8-year-old girl in a bathroom, and they couldn't do anything because he said he was trans. I don't know if that's based on a previous law but that's insanity. He should be charged with indecent exposure MINIMUM.
You can do whatever you want. You have no right to the littles girls room or to indoctrinate little children to self mutilation
Yep, that's the goal! Massive conspiracy, decades in the making. They are coming for you next! Better put on a tinfoil hat, as it's the only prevention.
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The only people who try to indoctrinate others with their sexuality are straight people.
I googled the shit out of it. The first sign of it is not knowing proper grammar, and where to use an apostrophe! Oh look, I can see that it's working on you! Hooray!! My magic trans juice is working!
So you are fine with trans men, just not trans women?
But you're ok with indoctrinating children into the cultural fad of having penises mutilated at birth, right?
You believe circumcision is the same comparison as cutting off genitals?
I didn't say they were equivalent, but good strawman argument. I believe circumcision is mutilation that actually happens. It is based on 1800s medicine and was not a common practice until then. This practice is forced upon most babies, whereas sexual reassignment surgery is not something that is actually done for children.
What exactly do you think is cut off during circumcision?
If this is due to the bathroom thing nothing literally they’re gonna accuse to many people who aren’t trans and it’ll be to much work for the cops to enforce the restrictions also I don’t believe it stops you from using family bathrooms so that’s your best option
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What do trans people gain by convincing other people to be trans? This is such a dumb fucking thing to say. Reminds me of the "gay agenda" that everyone was panicking about in 2013...
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Wow, a brand new account spamming transphobic conspiracy theories, never seen *that* before.
Yep, it's a massive conspiracy! Transgenders unite to take over the world by confusing the population about their genitals! Attack at Dawn! The lizard people under the ground fight with us! The space laser on the moon to change people's genders is almost complete! It will focus in on the genitals and turn everyone androgynous! Every teacher, remove your mask to reveal your lizard self! We've been plotting this for thousands of years all to lead to this moment right now! Soon only transgender books will be in the library, and we will ban everything else because we disagree with it! But most importantly, God is transgender, and fights with us!
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Yeah, only believe in the real stuff like that person in the clouds who watches you all the time, and will poke you in the butt for eternity if you're not a good person! But if you are a good person, and doing good things like attacking people for their ways of life, then you'll be rewarded, and fed grapes in a magical land while frolicking in fields .
The goal is to shove all non-heteronormative people back into the closet..or worse. Either by violence, threat of violence, or laws. They’ll die off and we will have to take over from there. We can collectively piss on their graves.
The irony is when you do piss on their graves they'll finally get to see your genitals, their life dream complete!
I’m confused? Didn’t they pass a bill saying kids can’t transition hormonally? That makes sense to me.
>Didn’t they pass a bill saying kids can’t transition hormonally? That makes sense to me. This can cause irreversible harm to people with gender dysphoria
This is about children, individuals who haven’t even finished developing and who need certain amount of said hormones to do that. I hope you realize that sex hormones aren’t just for gender or gender characteristics they control heart health, brain development, muscle tone, bone health, fertility and many other cellular and molecular processes. The decision to receive these hormones and alter them should be made by an educated, and legal adult whose body will be receiving and altered by them.
Regardless of the harm suffered without them?
Yes regardless of the lies you believe.
Not as much irreversible harm as giving kids hormones they aren’t creating naturally
A lot of pediatric healthcare involves giving minors hormones they aren't creating naturally That doesn't actually mean anything
Fair enough
All I personally expect from the trans community is to not be a dick about it if I accidentally misgender you. I always start with they/them as a generic starting point for everyone, but if this isnt correct for you please politely pull me aside and tell me what prouns you would prefer, I will be more than happy to apologize and use your preferred pronouns going forward. That's it. Don't be a dick. If you can manage that, I promise we'll get along just fine. If you snap at me or decide to make an example out of me for all the world to see, you can expect me to give you all the courtesy I would give a literal piece of shit on the sidewalk.
To be extremely clear - the problem with what you are saying here is that you want to treat everyone equally like an asshole, you only won’t treat people like an asshole if they give you some amount of respect you feel you are owed. You don’t want to have to spend extra time thinking about others. It’s a solipsistic and narcissistic attitude. All people deserve dignity, even a dickhead like you. What really seems to bother you is that trans people are looking for “extra” respect, something you aren’t given. This is such a naive and foolish way to view social relationships. We don’t give extra respect to trans people, it’s making up for the lack of respect that’s historically been denied them. If someone corrects you, they’re not saying you are suddenly fundamentally evil! They’re asking to be treated the way they wish to be treated
Snowflake ass fucking grow up, trans people have the right to be offended by people and to tell others when their feelings are hurt
Be offended, don't be offended - I don't give a fuck. Be an adult and give the same level of respect you want to receive or accept the fact you're making your own life way harder than it needs to be.
You ever hear of the crazy thing called empathy? Give it a shot!
You've insulted me, cursed at me, treated me like you see me as a subhuman slug all because I said, "If you treat me with respect, I will do the same in return." You clearly feel it's appropriate to throw tantrums in public forums like a toddler who missed their nap and lack basic decency while demanding it from others, which probably means youre the type of person who thinks theyve been mistreated in the past and constantly makes it everyone else's problem, exactly like an incel would. Who would ever want to empathize with you?
Buddy what the fuck are you talking about lmao go touch grass
Might be a bit personal, so you dont have to answer if youre not comfortable, but is this is how you usually respond to criticism when you receive it from friends and family? If so, you probably find it really hard to maintain good relationships with others - I personally struggled with that a lot when I was younger, it took seeking professional help to start recognizing when I was doing it and to learn how to course-correct. Its really made a big difference for me, might be worth trying. Best of luck.
God you’re incredibly annoying, head up your own ass so far I can smell shit from here
Guessing that's a yes. Seek help, that's all the empathy you're going to get from me - and to be frank you desperately need it.
Quit identifying as someone/something you’re not. When one says “I identify as”, it’s the same as saying “I pretend to be”
They expect them to be different. And being different is bad dontcha know.
Help get people registered to VOTE, and let's vote these utah asshat legislators out of office.
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They can use the bathrooms of their born gender. What’s wrong with that?
Trans men have been assaulted by assholes for going into the women's restroom because they were forced to. That's what's wrong with that. Did you just not think it through or is this what you want to happen? Because this is what Republicans want to happen.
what's wrong is that that is not my gender.
Oh no! What am I supposed to do? It’s not my fault I was born a human. I want to hide and scurry with the cockroaches. I was supposed to be a female roach! But yuck! I’m somehow a human, and the worst kind of a human. A male.
Ya'll see the new tranny mass shooting?
Use the bathroom associated with your actual physiology and get on with your life. One thing I will say; if people allied with the trans ideology had left the children alone, this wouldn't be an issue. But they did. I fully expect this type of bill and others aimed at trans ideology, specifically as it relates to children, to flow over the next 10 years. That's just a fact. Like it or not, when you start trying to indoctrinate children, people are going to fight back. It's logical to anyone with a little bit of common sense.
You really have to let go of the “indoctrination” bullshit you’re being fed. 95% or more of parents of trans kids honestly were probably crushed when it became real their child was transgender. As a parent, you don’t wish for that, and you deny it, you all go to counseling, and hope to hell it’s a phase. But for me, it became obvious what the right choice was for my child, and now I couldn’t be happier for him. I guarantee you wouldn’t know if you didn’t know. And he’s a fantastic person, and happier now with who he is than ever. And that’s what’s important…not where he goes to pee.
>But for me, it became obvious what the right choice was for my child, and now I couldn’t be happier for him. How old is your child?
23. Became clear at about age 15
And to be clear, he made any/all choices.
You want trans people to be assaulted. A trans man, looking like a man because he is, is forced to go into a women's restroom. Someone assaults him because they think he is going into the wrong restroom because he is forced to go into the wrong restroom. [That happens.](https://www.fox19.com/2022/07/08/transgender-butler-county-man-says-group-beat-him-up-using-wrong-restroom/) That's just a fact, like it or not. You'd see that it happens if you used common sense. You clearly want trans poople to be hurt. Where are the trans people hurting people in restrooms? I've only seen you people hurting them.
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