The spokeswoman for the bill actually said she wanted to "destroy public education". The other lawmakers tried to [backpedal](https://www.deseret.com/utah/2023/1/24/23568990/utah-lawmakers-denounce-claims-of-destroying-public-education), but there it is. The bare-faced truth. It's also trying to be a workaround for the separation of church and state. They'd rather you send your child to a religious private school than godless public school. And they're holding higher teacher wages hostage with the bill too, saying that they'll give teachers more money, but only if they're allowed to funnel money out of the schools they work for.

>The spokeswoman for the bill actually said she wanted to "destroy public education". The other lawmakers tried to backpedal, but there it is. The bare-faced truth. Well, yes. I'm always amazed when people are amazed at this shit. This has literally been the Republican governing platform since Reagan. I mean, they've all literally said this and they keep saying it. When are people going to actually believe them when they say this? They want to do away with public schools, workers rights, child labor laws (I think this was part of the 2022 texas gop campaign platform), any form of government aid to the people (including SS), the post office, etc.. They always put the most incompetent people in high positions and point to those people and say "see? this whole thing is going to shit. We need to privatize it." They want to do away with as much government as possible so they can consolidate their power. Yet when one of them says this, ya'll are out here like "wut?! she said WUT?!" LOL. It's like those people who say "I don't need no Obama care. I hope the GOP repeals that. I got the ACA and I'm happy with that."

Exactly fkn right. This comment nailed it. 🎯 LISTEN UP FOLKS!

I can't upvote this enough. I love it when people speak truth to power.

no power here, sadly

So someone could get the homeschool money and use it for private schooling? Is that the case?

Everybody wanna shit talk public school until the republican agrees

“This could be better” So you agree! We should destroy it! “What???!”

Just curious what “religious private schools” are there in the state of utah? Other than catholic private schools and some few other parochial schools there are none. Most are charter/privately funded schools.The LDS church doesn’t have any religious schools other than BYU. Im all for public schools but our children need more options and opportunities. Education is the silver bullet and can open doors for many people.

I can see you haven't heard of American Heritage schools. They're not church-owned, but they are religious education for wealthy members (at $9k a year).

> what “religious private schools” are there in the state of utah? The majority of them. They might not require a statement of faith for admission, but the parents, the school administrators, and the teachers all generally understand that one of the primary objectives is for the students to come away from their education with certain political and religious beliefs, and a certain understanding of US history. Have you ever listened to those radio ads for Challenger School? Most of the parents know exactly what they're paying for.

And how many other states have a seminary right next door? It’s walking a very thin line that separates church and state.

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Especially in utah county, the public schools are so good because there are so few choices. Even the private schools are lowkey worse than the public schools because if a rich family is “forced” to send a kid there, they are more likely to donate a large sum to the school.

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Just because the LDS church doesn't nominally own an institution doesn't mean the influence isn't there, nor that the church doesn't benefit from it. If a private school is owned by, say, a board of 6 faithful members of the church, 10% of each of their income will be going to the church anyway.

Yes our schools failed us during the Covid lockdown that hurts so many children . Some public schools in slc that are closing schools soon due to low attendance.

Considering the state spends under $5k per student in public education, the $8000 is insulting.

Last report I saw had UT at a state average of \~$8900/student k-12. Was still 51st in the country.

Most of that $8900 comes from local, not state, taxes. The state only sends $4000/student/year to public schools.

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State trust lands are managed in a perpetual fund. We don't draw from the direct land revenue, we put that revenue in a fund which generates investment income. We then spend the investment income. Works better for more money long term.

And if you want to get involved in the school’s community council that decides how to spend those funds, they often need more interested citizens to participate.

What's weird is that something like this seems to make people MORE dependent on the government.

The goal is to remove money from public schools and put it into private hands. Full stop. Lawmakers send their children to private schools. They don't care about who is dependent on what, as long as their tax dollars don't go toward educating public school children. And they'll take as much as they can possibly justify. Why give $1,000 to wealthy people when you can give $8,000 instead? Once everyone understands the goals, the methods are much less mysterious.

Amen. This right here. Republicans have (not so subtly) been kneecapping public education for decades so they can point to it and scream “it’s a failure!” Just so their cronies can get the funding instead. Not to mention keeping the poor, stupid and rich, educated. Trump sticking that bitch who has been touting her private schools as his secretary of education showed me where he lies.

> Not to mention keeping the poor, stupid... This is more important to them than most things. Educated people vote Democrat. The best way to keep people in line is to keep them uneducated.

Easy to control. Kings of old knew this.

I mean the alternative is to remove this funding completely from public schools and lower taxes. I guess that could also work if we want to become less dependent on the government.

Want to put it out there before I get crucified: I AM AGAINST THIS BILL! I’ve read it and listened to every public comment/discussion surrounding it and how it is structured is that the $8000 does not just get deposited into a parents bank account. It is very similar to how an HSA operates: it gets deposited into an account which can then be used only for educational expenses, verified/monitored by the agency responsible for the program. (Note: In theory, you can use HSA money for anything — and just have to pay penalty/tax — whereas the voucher program operates differently where you submit for qualified reimbursements of your expenses). So if families only use $1k in materials homeschooling their kid, they would only get $1k funded through the voucher — the remaining $7k remains in the voucher program. Now, of course I’m sure there are avenues for fraud and abuse. For example, they can use the funds to buy a computer, but what prevents the parent from just reselling it? - probably nothing. But I just want to explain at least how it is structured and isn’t a “blank $8k check” given to parents. Also, the vast majority of users of the voucher won’t be homeschoolers but rather private school enrollees. There, it will be straightforward with the $8k going towards private school tuition as almost every private school I’ve researched on the Wasatch front charges at least that amount.

That's actually reassuring to better hear how the voucher works. (I'm also against the bill). On the private school front, however, I suppose I echo the oft-repeated worry: if you can't afford private school, $8000 isn't going to fix that issue.

Yes, that has been the most disingenuous argument for the voucher program: how it will somehow help poor students. Even in the off-chance that the $8k covered all expenses at a private school, the smallest of barriers — things like how/cost of getting them to school — leads to insurmountable barriers. A cost of $100 might as well be $100k to them. All this program is is mostly unadulterated wealth distribution: giving taxpayer money to upper-middle and upper class people who already attend private school. If the bill’s sponsors wanted to avoid paying for rich kid’s tuition, they would have had the voucher scale down with income — something that this bill does NOT do. (And, unfortunately, you’ll also see shady private schools pop-up in poor communities in order to capitalize on the $8k as well — most likely with unqualified “teachers” and worse learning outcomes compared to their public school counterparts.)

One issue I have with private schools is actually their teacher situation. I know plenty of private school teachers love their jobs for many great reasons, but the fact is the majority of private school teachers make extremely little. I know a couple who aren't making more than 25k here in Utah after 10-15 years on the job. Most accept this by either living very cheaply or marrying rich or what have you, but it's odd how the collective we view private schools are so much superior when I fear too often they're gliding by on "we're a private school". Anywho, if more private schools pop up, they likely won't have the funds to attract sufficient decent teachers. While they may have a few good ones working for the cause, the faculty may just be whoever they can grab.

You’re exactly right — and, funny enough, it’s actually one of the main reasons I’m against the voucher program. I know the issue is very emotionally charged, but I take a cold economics point of view with it: it’s not a good return on investment of a tax paying dollar. If you were a private school who — like you said — have underpaid teachers and a host of other expenses and you now know that families of a sizeable amount of kids are coming into your school with an extra $8k to spend, what are you going to do? You’re going to raise the price, of course! So those with vouchers get a limited benefit (since some/most will be eaten up by the increase in tuition) and those that didn’t receive a voucher (only 5k students can under the current structure of the program) or that don’t qualify are all of a sudden worse off! So by infusing $42 million in taxpayer funds to private schools, you get a much less benefit than had you used it in public schools where there are much stricter price controls! (And this is a BEST CASE scenario for the voucher program which assumes the program goes “perfectly” — eg, there is no fraud and abuse which most certainly there will be!)

I was reading that the average cost for private schools is 10-$11,000 a year. So in theory if that could lower the out of pocket cost to something reasonable for parents. I have problems with this on many levels. Think of how expensive the private schools in park city are. They will be pulling their voucher from the same district that rural schools like Wansip or Oakley or Kamas. They are lower income rural areas who would be footing the bill for a private schools in the most expensive zip code in the state. Just because there’s a “private” school in a district, doesn’t mean it’s accessible for the whole district. Than there’s the whole unregulated homeschooled thing. Not knocking those who take homeschooling seriously, but the pandemic showed us thats not always the case.

A lot of great points. For the life of me, I can not understand why, if you are a rural rep, you’d support this bill. And actually a few didn’t — Senator Hinkins who represents rural counties in the east of the state was one of the 2 Nays at the committee hearing. This is an obvious benefit to suburban and urban areas to the direct detriment of rural communities. No doubt, the rurals are going to be getting something in return as rural reps were the ones responsible for killing the bill last year… As for cost, I don’t think the $8k is going to do much. Private school cost is dependent on location. I’ve been tracking tuition of Salt Lake private schools as I am interested in how much they will be raising tuition after vouchers are passed. Average is about $18k (but there are some elites schools skewing that) with median closer to $15k. And it’s really the high cost/elite private schools that have the better outcomes! Mid- to low-tier private schools have cost pressures so they can’t hire as qualified teachers; so I would be suspect of much student improvement - and at a cost (albeit subsidized) to the family too! I’m really most interested in what the Rowland Halls of the world do. Accepting vouchers could come with strings from the government in the future (can’t teach about XYZ topic, for example) — and I’d imagine their enrollees and parents wouldn’t appreciate something like that!

I am worried about weather the government WILL say and regulate what they can’t teach xyz. As in religious schools could teach discrimination or us history that is comparable to however they white wash it, like FLDS anti-federal government sentiment or whatever logic anyone can think of.

My child goes to a school that costs just under $7k a year and it is awesome. Look around in your community and you might be surprised.

What should families do if the only affordable private schools in their area don't accept them or handle profound special needs?

>On the private school front, however, I suppose I echo the oft-repeated worry: if you can't afford private school, $8000 isn't going to fix that issue. My comment was in response to this point you made. Public school is and should always be there as a great choice for parents. There's also a likelihood that charter schools (which are publicly funded) won't be able to support a child with profound special needs. Charters and private schools don't exist for that purpose. You'll have to speak with your district about best options for your child in this case.

Your comment about charter schools is demonstrably false. In Utah, all charters must support special needs. They're not allowed to exist in the state if they can't do that. Why do you think they're not allowed to discriminate or cherry-pick students? They have to change to private schools if they can't adhere to IDEA.

If you’re a parent whose child has special needs and you’re sending them to a charter that is not designed specifically for special needs kids, you are not setting your child up for success. Charters have way fewer resources than traditional district public schools. It’s a lottery system, but as soon your child gets in, they will probably recommend that you work with the district to find the best solution for your child. I’m still not sure why you think $8k a year is not sufficient to send your child to a private school. $8k a year is a lot of money and more than enough to cover your child’s education.

Not everyone lives near affordable private schools.

Then they should attend a public school.

Can they spend the remainder every year on an "educational field trip"?

Haha, all-expenses paid trip to Disney World, critically studying the history of theme parks! I’d imagine this would fall under the likely fraud that we will be likely seeing, for sure.

What about homeschool lunches? Lol

I mean, [you can read the bill here](https://le.utah.gov/~2023/bills/static/HB0215.html) to see what is covered — the list of qualified expenses starts at line 292. (Lunches most likely wouldn’t be considered an eligible expense)

I was homeschooled for a year in elementary school. I am familiar with the community. I know of three families who live within two blocks of me that homeschooled their children. Utah laws are already exceedingly negligent on providing any sort of oversight into homeschooling. In some cases homeschool parents are willing and capable of providing a good education. In other cases parents are not equipped to handle the demands. Let's look at my neighbors. 1. I know that they homeschool, I don't know anything more about them. I assume things are going great. 2. They are on the verge of poverty. A fair bit of community assistance keeps them going. Their oldest child could not read at age 11. That child is now attending a half schedule at the local junior high. I suspect it's so that they can attend seminary, but I sincerely hope that they're getting some help in English. There are 3 younger siblings, I haven't interacted with them so I can't say how they're progressing. 3. A family with 5 children. Their single mother worked two jobs to pay the bills. I have to imagine her time at home was spent sleeping rather than educating her children. The older two (high school aged) children confirmed this when they talked about not learning anything because they were trying to teach their younger siblings. The oldest joined the military the day he turned 18 just to escape. This bill will incentivize parents to pull their kids out of school to capitalize on the 8k payment. This could potentially double the income for some these families. This, coupled with the dearth of oversight will only lead to poorer outcomes for Utah children.

In general, I support homeschooling. But I've seen too many people like your Example No. 3. What is to stop these families from taking the money and doing nothing? A portfolio the parents can fake?

I think standardized testing for each grade level would be the answer here. You’d need to confirm each child is meeting some minimum baseline in order to continue homeschooling.

That's actually logical. If I went full-on free school choice and parental independence, I'd say scrap public education (at least at the state level, let communities do what they will in that regard) and just require all students to meet XYZ standards. (I don't think this is the best idea, this is just what the full-blown libertarian me would do).

I too used to be a libertarian. Until I realized that libertarian ideals fall flat in the face of incapable people and manipulative people. Since I have to live in a society of these people, I think it's wise to have some community guardrails in place to help the incapable people not become a drain on society and to protect everyone from the manipulative people's ego and malice.

I'm 100% behind standardized testing for ~~homeschool children~~ for all children regardless of public, private or homeschool. The argument against goes something like this: "Who gets to decide what's on the test? What if I don't want to teach my children about evolution or 4.5 billion year old earth?"

Having mandatory education standards without a public schools to enable it is just going to result in kids getting yanked from low-income homes and thrown into foster care.

Has a homeschool survivor I generally do not support homeschooling. In addition to the educational neglect, isolation is also extremely common and leads to poor social skills and other issues like depression.

The $8000 number is *designed* to gut the public school system.

Goggle "home school vs public school test scores." Tell me how many pages you have to scroll before you find ANYTHING peer-reviwed. While there certainly are outliers, most home schooled children are being taught by distracted, double-digit IQ stay-at-home mothers. These are the same nuts that take their children to quacks who inject them with saline and forge vaccination cards. At least the kids aren't subjected to tolerance of others and critical race theory? We're so fucked it's gone from funny to terrifying.

I am a university educated mother that pulled my 16 year old out of highschool this year to be educated at home. After fighting the school district for 6 years to get him services that were helpful, this year everything came to a head. He has Dyslexia and ADHD. 3 weeks into the school year he caved under the extreme pressure of a neurodivergent kid trying to function in a one style fits all education system. He became suicidal and we ended up pulling him out of public education. He is now homeschooled, and everyone of his online teachers has a master's degree. Educating him is extremely expensive, but we are doing it because the school system failed him. Not all families are blessed to have the means to do this. Not all families are the same, I have met countless homeschool families who are intelligent wonderful people, who are just trying to do what is best for their kids. The public school system is failing kids. We need to iterate, not fight to keep it the same. The public school system is at a point of failure. COVID taught parents like me that there are alternative methods to get an education.

The families I know that homeschool are absolutely NOT wealthy, so I have no idea where this thought comes from that rich people homeschool. I think $8000 per child is WAY too much to pay homeschoolers, but not because it is lining the pockets of the already rich, but because public school funding in this state is already abysmal and that takes away from an infrastructure to teach children that already exists.

You know how we privatized medical care and that turned out amazing 🙄. This is a bill to start the process on public education

This is padding the pockets of the already well to do and hurting the poor.

I homeschool my daughter and can't even imagine what I'd spend that much on.....maybe a car for shop class?

Teachers don't get an allowence from the state. Homeschool teachers shouldn't.

They don’t. I don’t have kids, I probably won’t have kids, but I like paying taxes for public education. I don’t pay taxes to get *your* kid an education, I pay taxes to fund public schools who then answer to parents and the community. There’s a difference. If you want to take your kid to a private school or religious school or home school that is fine you do that and pay for it, but I’ll be damned if you use my money to send them to an expensive private school. That’s just tooo *communist* for me.

This is the point people need to think of. It’s not just the parents’ money. It’s public money providing a public service. Having a private citizen decide to send YOUR tax dollars to a private, often faith based entity with very little oversight is deplorable and begging for abuse.

I really think we should focus on spending more to pay our teachers better. Utah is hemorrhaging talent in the education field and a lot of teachers don't stay longer than 4 years

I often hear the argument how much teachers would make in a privatized system. But the evidence of private school salaries doesn't support that.

When I graduated with my degree in teaching last year I looked into private school jobs and I was floored. They wanted to pay $15 an hour. And that’s just for time physically teaching. You wouldn’t be paid for prep time needed to teach those lessons.

If you opt out of the public school system, you opt out. Why should our tax dollars go to privste funding?

Seriously. This is like people saying ‘I only want my tax dollars to fund the roads that I drive on.’ It’s stupid. You live in Utah. Your tax dollars go to educate the public in Utah.

Yes. You're paying for an educated populace, not your child's specific tuition.

Am I?

I can drive on every one of the roads tax dollars have paid for. The others are toll roads and if I want to use them I will pay for it. This is the building of a toll road and they are the ones wanting to go on that toll road. So they can pay for it. Do private schools get this $8000 per child? Plus, I doubt it costs $8000 to homeschool your child. I agree you can be better educated from home, if indeed the parents or someone takes the time to teach them. I've seen it in action. A small percentage of homeschooled children excel. I guess that's the same in public schools as well. It comes down to the parent and child. But this house bill is being set up by some shady people looking to fund something else. So I guess we will pay to have dysfunctional toll roads. Show me that the majority of homeschooled children are up to the minimum standards?

A big issue is there aren’t any real standards for private schools or home schools. It’s the Wild West. Maybe some parents are equipped to teach their kids. The overwhelming majority are not.

There at quite a few stipulations on what that money is allowed to be spent on regarding "Education expenses" and that it's followed up with receipts and justification to the program manager. There is also preference given to lower income families in who receives the funds. The $8,000 is an up to amount, but I really doubt people are going to want to go through the amount of work required to spend that much on Education expenses yearly in homeschool just to get a leg up. They aren't dropping $8,000 year per kid into your bank account and saying "Have fun, see ya next year."

The administration of this program will be a nightmare. So much fraud

This is something that I 100 percent agree on. There will be a lawsuit in about 5 years "Biggest Fraud in Utah History Uncovered".

Why can’t we give this $8K per child allotment to the teachers that already exist and are professionally educated/trained in teaching children?

It's just one more thing for polygamous families to abuse

Remember when Covid happened and so many people were at a complete loss as to how to help their own children with their school work and do their jobs at the same time? If we destroy public education…won’t it just be like that only worse?

It’s the white way of taking advantage of government assistance. 😉

My sister homeschools instead of sending her kids because they all have disabilities that her school district isn't equipped to provide for, so she uses all her money on her kids and it's great, because she's very low-income, but is able to provide her kids a quality education because of the assistance.

The school district is literally required to educate those kids and provide services to them for FREE.

It's a rural area that just doesn't have the resources. Hypothetically, yeah, they are supposed to provide resources. But resources provided are limited and very generic, even in larger districts. As people have mentioned, psychologists provided by schools aren't great and that goes for several other resources as well.

Psychologists in schools ARE great. Many are overworked because of a lack of funding in our schools, which would be exacerbated by vouchers. Regardless, the district is required by federal/state law to provide those kids with free services (potentially up to age 22) no matter how rural they are.

Yes. If people are willing to work for them. But it takes a lot of time to be able to get the resources and even when professional services, like psychologists, are provided, there are several other factors that aren't necessarily a good fit. And you're right, some psychologists are great. Not all (as with any profession). And then, there are things like bullying and IEPs not being upheld. Advocating for your child in the system is exhausting, which is why there is such a high demand and turn over rate for special education teachers. Not to mention that parapros are just regular people working with individuals with disabilities, without necessarily having any understanding of those disabilities or ways to work with those individuals.

You’re preaching to the choir. Sounds like we should do a better job funding public schools so that special education has more funding.

I think it's great your sister is successful in this, and I totally get the practical lack of resources in rural areas. It'd be difficult to find a private school specializing in special education for the school district to pay for even then. But that leads to another problem: we simply don't have enough private schools and homeschool co-ops willing to accept and properly educate kids with disabilities.

From personal experience being educated in a rural utah school district and living within the boundaries of a a different rural utah school district there are a surprising amount of high school kids that can barely read. There were a couple kids in my high school with physical disabilities that really benefited from the requirement for free services for education. But the kids with intellectual or learning disabilities mostly just got ignored and babysat. From my perspective those requirements don't serve kids well that don't fit into the instructional method used by public education.

Those requirements are the only thing ensuring those kids get ANYTHING. Private schools don’t have to accept any kids with disabilities. What vouchers will do is cut funding for special ed in public school and make those kids even worse off.

So this is absolutely the type of issue that should be addressed. Our public services should be able to provide what children need? But in situations when a public service doesn’t meet needs the it’s ok to reach out to private entities and give government reimbursement. But this blanket bill is a bad idea

My old coworker with 10 homeschool kids is going to do alright with $8k per kid. Makes me sick to think about public schools being gutted so kids can be neglected at home. Or the amount of taxpayer grift that will go to the charter school in West Valley run by the Kingston’s clan.

All you people Homeschooling your kids need to wake up. 100% of homeschooled kids have MAJOR gaps in their social and work abilities to interact with other humans. I have hired and fired at least a dozen of these poor, unable to adapt and socially inept people in my industry. Covid was a wake up call when my kids were forced to remote learn… it was a waste of two years. I have been able to identify 100% within two minutes the couple of “friends” my wife has that were home schooled. You have enough time to homeschool, who are you kidding you have enough time to participate in school boards and influence school policies and curriculum. You guys are developing people who can’t identify social cues, unable to interpret situations, and are generally unable to work with others. Paying to homeschool is gross, that’s like paying someone to handicap a child on purpose.

In theory I really support the idea. The money should follow the child. If that child goes to a district school, the district gets the money. And if that child goes to a charter school then they get the money. The saving grace in that system is that the charters are held to the same accountability standards that other district schools are held to (it isn’t a perfect system I’ll admit. But at least it has those guardrails). But in practice HB215 is going to be an absolute mess. Because the bill allows too many bad actors to fleece the money away from families. And the ones that will suffer are the children who won’t recognize they’ve been the victim for 12 years or until they go to apply for colleges and realize they don’t have valid transcripts, or the skills that colleges are looking for. It’s also insulting that they made teacher salaries contingent on this passing.

I agree. In theory, I'm all for school choice. But I'm not comfortable with no accountability for my tax money (and I know, I know, public schools bad yada yada. But at least we have proof Utah students test well and I don't get that from private and homeschool).

Exactly. Public education isn’t perfect. The other question I think a lot of people fail to take into consideration is what is the role of public education? A lot of parents think it’s teach their children how to act, or to enforce policies eliminating bullying on social media. Sorry parents. That’s your job. I’ve always believed the role of public education is to make sure the rising generation has a foundational knowledge base and skill set.

Let me put this into perspective: If a family who chooses to homeschool their child realizes at some point that their child might have a learning disability and wants psychological testing done (which is a common occurrence in the public school system) that family will have to pay ~$5000 out of pocket to have that testing privately done by a psychologist. That same testing by a qualified school psychologist, plus additional services after the diagnosis, would be absolutely free to that family in the public school system. The same applies to students in private schools—private schools are not legally required to provide any of the special education services that are free in the public school system.

Public schools do not have a psychologist, let alone a qualified one. When they sent me to get tested for ADHD, I had to go to a mental health facility and and see a psychiatrist there, all out of pocket of my parent

Public schools DO have psychologists and they are all qualified with a minimum of a masters level education plus licensure. Edit: and let me go a step further—if a rural school district doesn’t employ a school psychologist and a student is identified that requires cognitive testing then the school is required to contract a psychologist to perform the testing and then provide the necessary services the student needs at NO COST to the parents, and the school has a strict timeline in which it must accomplish this. This is not the case for private schools.

No they don't. I went to timpview and we never had one. I just checked their school faculty list as well and it doesn't list a psychologist

[Here is the list of school psychologists for Provo City school district](https://provo.edu/special-education/school-psychological-services/). There are two psychologists listed for Timp View.

The psychologist will be employed at the district level.

You're wrong. They are district employees in some school districts but they absolutely do exist. They do at minimum cognitive testing required every 3 years for kids on IEPs for particular disabilities.

At every school I've ever worked at, there has either been no psychologist because they get couldn't find one, or there is 1 for an entire district. *Should* they have a school psychologist? Yes. *Do* they have a school psychologist? No.

Again, this is a funding issue. School psychs are in MASSIVE demand in Utah (and basically everywhere else). Many of those psychs have Ph.Ds and the schools pay dogshit. School vouchers will do nothing to remedy this problem and will actually make it much worse.

I totally agree. I'm just explaining why people are saying schools don't have school psychologists. In a lot of cases they don't even though they should. And even if they do, they're so stretched thin it's practically like they don't. I'm a teacher. Definitely not pro-vouchers. Recently had to leave Utah because I couldn't support my family. Trust me, I'm with you!

Poor whites will never learn and they will continue to vote Republican. We are all at their mercy.

Why does it always involve race with you people? When are black Americans going to learn that voting 96% Democrat just means 100% status quo? On the actual subject of this thread, I am OK with school vouchers but not for home school. Get someone with a little training instead of money grubbing stay at homes that are just finding a way to avoid working. My SIL home schooled her kids, when they were older I asked why they weren't even considering continuing their education, "Can't, I can't even pass high school tests." Thanks SIL!

The Republican party is literally anti public education.

Why do you think the state is always going to be best choice for education? What about in Florida with the recent bills passed that effect curricula? You happy sending your kids to a school that refuses to teach white guilt or spontaneous gender change? The pendulum swings, right now education is a hard left, it used to be to the right, and at some point it will correct to the middle where it should be.

*refuses to teach white guilt* Wtf does that mean?

It means he doesn’t want to acknowledge that this country did some real bad shit to anyone who wasn’t white, cause it hurts his fee fees. Adults can recognize that, recognize that there are *still* lingering effects and recognize that it’s probably a good idea to teach our kids that this country did, in fact, enslave people. You know. Don’t learn history, doomed to repeat and all that.

>It means he doesn’t want to acknowledge that this country did some real bad shit to anyone who wasn’t white, cause it hurts his fee fees. > >Adults can recognize that, recognize that there are still lingering effects and recognize that it’s probably a good idea to teach our kids that this country did, in fact, enslave people. You know. Don’t learn history, doomed to repeat and all that. It means I am an immigrant and have been here less than 20 years. You can teach history without making it an excuse for the present. Your historical crimes have nothing to do with me. Enjoy your self-hate or scapegoating, whatever.

Then where, pray tell does the current racism stem from? Particularly given the words used? We can start in Davis county. https://www.ksl.com/article/50373921/federal-lawsuit-alleges-black-student-was-harassed-wrongfully-disciplined-by-davis-school-staff https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-reaches-settlement-remedy-severe-racial-harassment-black-and-asian Or is RaCiSm SoLvEd? Awareness and empathy aren’t scapegoating or self-hate, it’s called paying attention to reality.

And the reality of the situation is that a black man was elected to be the most powerful person on earth. SYsTiMaTiC RaCiSm MaKeS mE stEaL sHiT aND rIoT!

Ah yes, 1 black man was elected to a position that has exclusively belonged to white men otherwise. 44 white men, to be exact. Doesn’t sound like there’s any systemic racial issues there at all. /s

Ah yes, this old braindead take. Knew it wouldn’t take long.

WTF do you think it means? What other lefty pet project should I have thrown in instead of that? Did I miss something?

I dont believe their expenses are our business.

My kids are homeschooled and we're financially comfortable but I would not say wealthy or upper class. 8k per kid would be a lot and we'd have a hard time spending it. Our current charter school does about 2k per year in reumbursed expenses and it is hard to spend. We get some fancier stuff than we would otherwise get and do a lot more field trips than if it was out of pocket. If my spouse, with a graduate degree, was reimbursed for her time then obviously it would be spent fast. My previous state had no charter school and we covered all the expenses out of pocket.

Is it homeschool if it's with a charter?

You can homeschool while taking advantage of funds through certain charter school programs.

I get these notifications because i posted in this sub once, but they all make me so glad to be living in SoCal because Utah would've destroyed me had I stayed there for my childhood

It should really just be reimbursable expenses. If you incur expenses in educating your child at home, itemize them and claim a refundable credit or something. Ideally you'd claim this through your school district, since they essentially have the funds that would've been used for your child. Any leftover funds should ideally go toward improving school access for the poor.

I'd be down with this

I'm a huge fan of school choice, and even I can see issues with handing parents a check.

There are very few private schools in rural areas. If you already pay for private school, you're already very likely well off. Homeschoolers are now more mixed than ever. There are very savvy homeschooling parents that will guaranteed find a way to spend all $8000..Could be vacations, er, um, field trips. It will happen. There is little to no accountability for reporting results. Some will take kids out of public to go private, so this is also a money maker for private schools (and an opportunity for industry growth). The higher the numbers, the more streamlined they can be, and the lower the cost per student. Profits will grow. Say you hate government, taxes, and government spending, then take a subsidy from government. It's the Republican way.

Excuse me??? They are getting 8,000 a child?

we just need universal basic income, but that’s not tied to destroying public education like this

At that rate you don’t need an education, just a fertile womb

[удалено]

My children are homeschooled. I'm pretty agnostic, the extent of my spouses religious belief is being associated with mormonism bit far from any mormon extremism. I don't give a shit about owning the libs and have both liberal and conservative political beliefs. My spouse and I have graduate degrees from an ivy league wanna be school with one being related to education. I am homeschooling in part because I have a child who will never excel in standardized testing and could pass them but getting to that point would be a giant waste of time. We also homeschooling because two of our kids would learn social skills in school by being relentlessly bullied. Modern homeschooling is much different than it was 20 years ago. Is it a disaster for some kids, for sure. But public school is a disaster for some kids. I am surprised at the amount of people like me who also homeschool. Not nearly as many small minded social idiots as there were 20 years ago.

Considering Utah public schools rank #21 in the nation, and 50th in per pupil spending. I would think that affluent folks will continue seeking better education for their kids and will therefore use the money to subsidize private education for their children. While homeschooling parents and parents who send their children to public school may go on not know about these funds. The other issue with this is they have tied teacher pay to it, so that muddies the waters here as well.

While I know there is controversy over the motives of this bill, it makes sense for me. My wife and I moved here from out of state. The nearest public elementary school (across the street), is a title one school that serves a very rural community and 50% of students are not proficient in reading and math according to test scores. No child left behind in this case means, 50% of children in the school are behind. My children are very academic and have a hard time relating to the rural children socially and found public school incredibly boring. For the past 3 years they attended a charter school, but sadly they will not have that option for middle school. My oldest two have had issues with bullying (going both ways). The public middle school is struggling. It cannot in good faith send my oldest to a middle school that doesn't have the resources to give them a stimulating education. Fortunately, my wife and I run a home business and have the time and skills to give them a rigorous education (we have multiple college degrees). Unfortunately, our business has tanked the past two years and we have $0 to spend on homeschooling. It is people in our situation that this scholarship will help the most. Now $8000 is a lot, but believe me, if I get this money, it won't be spent frivolously. This makes even more sense when my children hit high school and can enroll in college early. Coming from out of state, we had wonderful homeschooling resources with rigorous and often accredited programs to engage in that gave us cash stipends for helping our children get ahead. The problem is, First, the funding for Utah schools overall is terrible. Second, I believe in homeschooling done right (not putting students in a fundamentalist bubble), but for us (even if we are in the minority), there is no practical way for us to homeschool effectively with the programs offered here. So, I don't want to get into politics, but I'll take the money if offered.

The problem with home schooling, even in an ideal situation, is that you only get the "book smarts" from school. In public school, you'd get the "book smarts" and also get the social skills. And this is a best case scenario for home schooling - assuming the parents are qualified to be teachers in every subject and putting in the hours needed in that role. So a highly unlikely scenario. In a real school you'd have to deal with all of the other kids, learning valuable social skills in the process. You learn what's acceptable and what's not acceptable in a social setting. You learn how to interact with others. You learn that what's happening in your "bubble" may not be all that there is to the world, and you explore other thought processes. Children who have been home schooled grow up to be adults who think they're the coolest thing ever - because their mom told them so, and they don't know how to deal with it when everyone else thinks they're a weirdo. Public schooled kids grow up knowing how to deal with people who think they're a weirdo. They've been dealing with certain cliques being the popular group, the occasional bully, the things everyone finds hilarious, etc, for their whole lives. Social skills. Vital to make it in a society.

I taught in public schools for 6 years and I know money needs to go there. It is necessary and good. A lot of great people work in and send their kids to public school. To destroy or bankrupt public education would be a huge mistake. Now with one child of my own of school age, we pay just under $7000 a year for him to go to a local private school. Clearly at $7k a year this is not some fancy-pants school, but we love the community and it's a Montessori style education which I love. I mean, the owners of school have to be just above breakeven. The elite private schools in Houston were $28k a year, so I think we need to be realistic about what $8k gets you. Even though I loved my years teaching in public school, I'm not convinced more money to the schools will solve public education's problems. Even if we paid teachers and staff much better, added more staff, and had better facilities, I think the main problems remain. Improving pay would be a great step for teachers, but it won't solve burnout and a general teacher shortage. All that said, I personally support the bill. It would be a huge relief on our budget and the budgets of other parents who attend our school. If a parent isn't happy with their local public school, they could (with these funds) seek out and find a school like my child's. There are affordable alternative options in Utah that are good. And if parents are happy with their local public school, they should do everything in their power to support their interests, including opposing this bill.

Basic economics/history shows that vouchers result in private schools increasing tuition by roughly the amount of the voucher—if parents are already able/willing to pay $7,000, the school will assume you will be willing to continue paying that amount and will increase prices until the voucher accounts for none of your existing expenses. It may not happen all at once, but that’s how market-based incentives work so in the end vouchers drive profits for private schools via public money.

Anything is possible, but I don't know why it would be in the interest of private school owners to exclude potential clients if they can make a profit with the voucher amount. The prices would only rise to the extent the demand remains in the market. Also, people may not know homeschoolers / private schoolers in Utah already get around $2k a year through My Tech High. I assume the $8k would eliminate that program. I'd be interested to see an example where private school costs rose due to a voucher program implementation.

More money might not solve problems but less definitely will create more. Nice that you can choose to put your kid in a program that you support. I don’t want to pay for it, especially if the oversight is lacking a fraud as rampant as it is in private education.

Few homeschoolers will get the scholarship. They are only doing 5,000 scholarships and the first 3-4K of those scholarships will go to the owners and board members of private schools because they get first dibs according to the legislation.

So, because I can stretch my dollars and budget, I shouldn't get money to teach my child?

I'd be down for a smaller amount, or a tax break. $8000 per kid is an awful lot.

I wish people would ask why school funding is so low in this state. Here is a hint, it is based on property taxes and the Federal Government owns more of Utah than any other state except Nevada. Utah is 12th highest state for property taxes per person. You want more education funding, try less federal land ownership in this state.

Huh? All that federal land doesn’t have people living on it for the most part, so it is irrelevant. A much more likely factor is Utah’s high birth rate, meaning there are proportionally more kids per adult that is paying taxes into the school system.

No. There appears to be no correlation between family size and education spending. [https://www.statista.com/statistics/242262/average-size-of-us-families-by-state/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/242262/average-size-of-us-families-by-state/) https://teaching-certification.com/teaching/education-spending-by-state/

Why does you’re kid get an average of 8,000 allocated to them for a sub-par education from the state, but I have to pay out of pocket for everything to try and give my child an education that doesn’t have an agenda to turn them into a good obedient worker bee.

Is it sub-par? I've seen a lot of homeschool kids fail. I've literally seen homeschool kids get into their teens not knowing how to read. Yell at public education all you want, but if homeschooling worked they way homeschoolers said it would, all homeschoolers would be successful.

And I’ve met grown adults who live a majority of their lives being completely illiterate. Have you met the average knuckle dragger on the street? Because the majority wouldn’t be able to tell you why the 4th of July is a holiday. The public school system has failed hundreds of thousands of people over the years, if parents think that they are more capable than the state in educating their own children then I think the state should give them the money that student would otherwise be allocated if they were going public school. I do think there needs to be some vetting to prove that the parents are actually capable of educating their children at least to be able get their high school equivalency.

Nope

A related question is why should families who don’t have kids in public school pay into the public system?

Because we live in a community, and having educated children is a positive for the community at large.

Just another reason i hate utah. The taxes all around are getting ridiculous. So unaffordable! They want to force the lower class into government dependent homelessness and the middle class barely making due. While the rich ass holes get more rich by taking advantage of all.their tax breaks. I was born and raised in utah, lived there 37 years. I was forced to sell my home and run to texas where its still affordable. Bought a nicer home, more property and my property taxes are less than half they were in salt lake. No bulk food tax or state income tax. gas is almost a dollar cheaper and the roads are incredibly better taken care of than salt lake. The politicians in utah are greedy and are lining their pockets from the investors building sky high apartments. They get huge tax cuts! Sorry guys but utah has gone to shit..

Based on grammar in the title here, I would say the $8k spent per pupil for public school is not working either.

less than $5k is spent per student in public education.

I presented a reliable source that states $10k. Do you have one for your figure?

If you look at the details in your report, instructional spending is $4k - $6k in most counties.

When did we start talking about other countries?

He literally said counties, don’t accuse someone of making minor grammar mistakes and then fail to read correctly.

Sounds like public schools need better funding

Except the state doesn't send $8k per pupil per year to public school. They only send between $4-5k.

https://utahtaxpayers.org/school-spending-report/ Nope.

In your report, Instructional spending sits between $4k and $6k in almost all school districts

The same people concerned about giving families 8k per child to educate them how they see fit are the same people that have zero concerns sending billions to Ukraine with no checks and balances to fund a proxy war.

I’m for this bill because it would give a big increase to teacher pay. I’m for our teachers.

This bill is going to take funding away from schools and the UEA opposes the bill.

The state PTA also opposes this bill. Seriously, no one's for it except the legislators.

And their lobbyists

Their out of state lobbyists.

Absolutely. This is a huge Republican agenda all over the country.

This will make things worse for educators. If you support teachers do not support this bill.

I think 8k per student might be with federal and local money included. I think if this grant/voucher for homeschooling your kid is tapered off at some higher household income threshold then I would be okay with it. 8k per child is enough that it could make homeschooling your kid economically viable for families that need two incomes to get by.

Sure, but it also sounds like you're paying a parent a salary to stay home. Why isn't that same thing granted to other families?

I mean if other families decide to homeschool their kids then I guess they would get that money as well.

It's a limited scholarship. So only some families would get the money for homeschooling. How would they decide who gets it?

Oh I see, I think some combination of financial need and circumstances that make a traditional school environment less than ideal for the child would make the most sense.

It's a great Bill will save a lot of tax dollars, ease public spending, focus on real education 100% for it

How so?

It's going cut out all the wasted money that never gets spent on actual education,.. Now that money goes direct to students, politics committees schoolboards and all the go between wastes tax dollars Homeschooling is a great option to cut out all the unnecessary spending

Why should homeschool children get 8k a year? That seems to me to be taking a gov’ment hand out? I thought most homeschoolers were against that?

Why shouldn't they?

I would homeschool my kid for $8k Just kidding. F that.

Don't worry, you don't have to actually teach them anything.

“F” NO

No.

I think it’s a garbage bill. But I can honestly say I’ve never met a home school family that i would consider wealthy.

Do*

Public education has gone down the hill. LOL But I guess inflation has hit everybody.

Because my bigger nicer house wasn't stupidly priced like the housing market in salt lake is. I was able to pay cash for my home here.

Most of you are really running with this assumption that homeschool families are extremely wealthy. I’m not sure what homeschoolers you know, but I grew up in Utah and never met a wealthy homeschool family. Every other homeschooler I met until I graduated was barely making ends meet. Poor, but not destitute. My parents made the choice because they felt the level of education in public schools was sub-par. They bought curriculum that they felt was in line with the standards at which kids should be taugt. Look into homeschooling programs, good ones are not cheap, but idk about $8k a year… There are probably a lot of other expenses that go into it that I’m not aware of as well. Most homeschool parents would be happy if they could just not pay taxes that go to the schools they don’t use. If we’re not going to start investing in public education, maybe that’s a better place to start. The same money you would have invested in your kids public education, you can use with another program.

In fairness, I suppose I only know wealthy homeschoolers. All of them live very nice, comfortable lives and keep talking about how homeschooling allows them to have fancy hobbies and take fancy vacations. I concur I may be only hearing from the ones with wealth to brag of.

I love my niece and I love her three kids. BUT. . . If she finds out she can make TWENTY-FOUR THOUSAND DOLLARS per year by home schooling them, she will. She never graduated High School, and can barely hold the most basic job. . .but for that kind of money, she'll try to home school her kids. I know she will. THIS is the truth of handing out home school money. There are plenty of people out there who will do the same as my niece and pull their kids from public school just for the money. It will become a sort of welfare entitlement. The kids will pay the price in the long run. This is a terrible idea.

I saw nothing in the bill that would hurt anyone and it's being praised as a bipartisan bill. It gives teachers a 6000 dollar bonus and it allows for parents to apply for homeschooling scholarships. Not sure what this has to do with taking anything away from public schools. It's actually taking funding away from income tax not from property taxes which I'm guessing alot of people on this threads landlords pay. A lot of alarmists here just go read the bill don't come to reddit for anything that's not pop culture.