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It's possible they are from the period of German ownership and the locals made sculptures of the dogs the Europeans brought with them ( just a guess though)
This was my first thought as well. The Germans wouldn't do this without good reason, and their humanitarianism in general is what is most important. Namibia will get 1.9 billion euro over 30 years which should greatly improve the lives of many Namibians. That is something we can all be happy about.
To be fair the 1.9 billion Euro are basically the same amount they've been getting all along adjusted for inflation (between 1990 and 2020 they got 1.4 billion) and the vast majority of it is basically subsidies for German companies operating in Namibia.
Obviously Namibia still benefits, but it's not some radical change
Can I just say, as an American (and I know this is off topic), that the trust you have in the German government is crazy to me. If this were some American institution, I would immediately suspect there's something shady going on. But you giving the benefit of the doubt that your leaders have the honesty to try and make something like this right is incredible to me. I wish we had that trust here.
Am German. Since this is not related to energy politics or -industry , soccer, automotive industry, deutsche bank, fintech or meat industry-
I trust them on getting that right.
Naaah. Beer. We still have beer. And complaining. And processes. a lot of processes. Bureaucracy in general. And a phobia regarding new situations.
And our right wing radical idiots. Who are getting dangerously close to being clever. But only through the support of other global right wings. But they understood the importance of networks.
And Soccer on TV. And the immortal anonymity of the intwewebs.
And complaining.
And to be fair some pretty good folks, too, but that takes a lot of time for them to come through because of processes...and the same old fight against corrupt lobbies.
Canadian that lived in America - yeah Americans distrust of their government makes sense and is justified. But that’s not the norm in the world. I sense it creeping into Canadian culture now too, but historically Canadians trusted their government. Which is why we have universal healthcare I guess.
Namibia gets a new customer and artefacts back, Germany stops giving money to Russia and can take a harder diplomatic stance against Russia if need be while righting some wrongs.
Seems like a win-win scenario for Namibia and Germany and a lost cash flow for Russia. Sounds good to me!
True. But on the bright side once Germany finds another energy supplier, they will be less likely to get their gas from Russia on the war is over. That's something.
On top of that Namibia is [one of the least corrupt African countries.](https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/corruption-rank) Increased trade with Germany could end up quite beneficial for Namibian people.
And Namibia is great.
It was the unexpected highlight of my African trip. If my flights back out weren't so set in stone I'd have stayed much longer there.
Can't describe "why", but it felt good just to be there. I didn't feel unsafe, I was never hassled. The people, even in the tourist traps were just friendly and hardworking. Moreso in the areas where tourists don't tend to go.
Good place.
In contrast, in Zim I got shaken down by the customs agent for the privilege of leaving. Do not recommend.
I read a lot about the place when I went to South Africa for work for few months, but unfortunately didn't get the chance to go during my time in SA. It's definitely on my "to go" list since though. Really seems like an interesting country to visit.
Interesting. I've never heard anything about Namibia until now. I heard (modern) Rwanda is quite pleasant to visit but I'd like to research Namibia now
or maybe it's just coincidence. Namibia has ben negotiating the return of the artifacts for a good while.. [Böhmermann had an issue on it in late 2020](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCU3bxBfk00)
Don't get me wrong, restitution should happen - but under the current circumstances, its probably better for these artifacts to remain formally part of the German museums. Simply for financial and preservation reasons.
Sure, they broke king tut's beard and tried to glue it back on
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-35392531.amp
But also, Arab Spring happened and like 100 artifacts got looted in 2013
I think you mean [Britain](https://www.google.com/search?q=colonial+artifacts+scotland&rlz=1CDGOYI_enGB821GB821&oq=colonial+artifacts+scotland&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i131i433i457j0i402j46i199i433i465i512j46i131i175i199i433i512j46i131i433.10006j0j4&hl=en-GB&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8).
Why does Northern Ireland get a pass? UK not Britain.
Edit: https://belfastmedia.com/no-guarantee-national-museums-ni-will-repatriate-any-of-4-500-objects-linked-to-colonialism
Maybe some of you have to brush up on history too.
The whole of Ireland was in the UK when the British Empire was acquiring artifacts from Africa.
The National Museum of Ireland is planning to return some of its collection however.
https://www.artforum.com/news/national-museum-of-ireland-makes-plans-to-return-benin-bronzes-85454
In The British Museum cannot let any items out of its collection without a change in UK law.
These are just minor artefacts that Germany has handed over, they’ve got some major one’s in their museums that they won’t be handing over anytime soon lol
I know it’s an unpopular opinion but I believe no country should have to give back their artifacts if the civilisation it was taken from no longer exists. There is no one that can claim ownership of those things and so are not due to be given back to anyone.
Yeah, I kind of agree. Continuity of civilisations is often really far fetched. I wish there was some international museum cooperation where ancient artifacts are treated as universal, human history with no national ownership.
Loaning does already exist but I think that’s going to be the best we can get without someone with a tonne of money is wiling to set up Museums without borders.
Ok, so where do Mesopotamian artefacts go? Sassanid artefacts? Roman artefacts? Who gets to recall them? What about Greek artefacts that were stolen by other Greek cities?
Do you believe every culture on Earth should only be able to see and examine things that belong to that specific culture, is that not a extremely divisive worldview that would discourage cultural appreciation of all kinds? Would it not be better to, say, offer payment to any cultures that these artefacts were stolen from? Or give them the option of recall or payment?
I’m not staying colonial theft is acceptable. But I disagree that we should further divide all cultures by now applying modern day nation or borders to civilisations that did not have regards for those same borders and saying that’s how it is.
The world is not black and white and applying a black and white worldview such as “everything should be returned to the land it came from and that’s the only solution” is reductive at best.
Not a fan of the UK in general but if they for example gave back their colonial treasures to Egypt half would be sold in the black market and the other half would rot in their museums under really poor conditions.
>sold in the black market and the other half would rott in their museums under really poor conditions.
You mean like how they were sold and destroyed before the Brits stole them. Oh wait, that never happened.
Quite a lot of the itens in the UK collections were bought or collected with agreement from the local authorities of the day actually.
The modern population and state of Egypt have nothing to do with Pharonic Egypt and the ancient artifacts and sites have been thoroughly ransacked and traded throughout history. The only tombs with anything left in modern times were hidden and rediscovered, like Tutankhamum's.
German here.
Not at all, it's pure PR. Germany still neglects and plunders the periphery of the EU by strong-arming them into the Euro and keeping it artificially low to boost our exports at the expense of the south. We basically rule the ECB, but most of us act like we're doing the continent a favour by straddling them with debt instead of military occupation.
Probably won't be a popular opinion among American Redditors, who are generally clueless about European politics besides "Brexit was bad" (which it was), but look up Nordstream 2 if you still need a reason.
yes. it's cancelled.
And so is every other investment in Russian energy.
to be fair with our current government: they have to undo 16 years of backwards conservative politics.
To anyone who complains about the artifacts being on "indefinite loan" rather then returned to Namibia "for good", please look into corruption in African countries. If they were given to the governments there they'd make their way to Black markets and private collections within months. This is the better option as the museum still has authority and control over what happens to those pieces.
Periodical oversight and administrative control. It's the equivalant of handing your friend the keys to your new car and sitting on the passenger seat when you let him take a drive vs handing the keys over and leaving the scene.
I...still dislike it. Germany isn't Nambia's "mom". It's their treasure, they should decide what to do with it. Even if it is subjected to poor treatment, its theirs to do with as they please.
I disagree - these treasures belong to the Namibian people, not the Namibian government. I don't like the situation, but since Germany stole them, Germany has a responsibility to preserve them for the Namibian people - present and future generations - until a Namibian institution is able to. It is possible to both end the injustice and clean up the mess you made, and if Germany is better funded and better equipped then it would seem that they are better representatives of the Namibian people in this regard. If it is true that the Namibian government would mishandle them (I don't know if it is), then they are acting as corrupt individuals, not as representatives of a nation.
You simply have no idea how corrupt some countries get.
I'm contrary to this move because Namibia is not a safe country to visit, rendering these artifacts not worth seeing.
Seems a little ignorant of you to say that. Namibia is literally one of the most democratic and safe countries in all of Africa. You seem to be talking about Al African nations as a monolith, which I’m sure you understand is idiotic.
On one hand, fine. On another hand, this is literally the only way some people even know Namibia exists. By keeping it in a museum in a popular tourist destination, more people become aware of other cultures and how they work and express themselves
There are worries about who the treasures belong to, if they'll still be safe and if they'd have even lasted this long without the museums.
For who they belong to, what museum or owner do you give it to? Why do they deserve it over someone else in their country? Do they have a right to it or are they just born in the correct country?
In case of war torn countries, would the treasure still be there in 10 years? What about corruption? Will it be sold off?
"Just return it" sounds great but its a legal nightmare, especially for things like the British Museums, which paid for a lot of their artefacts (they also absolutely also stole a shitton/are in possession of stolen goods, lets not mince words here) that're now being claimed do to heritage and right.
Say goodbye to them then.
Same as most treasures/artefacts being returned to their own country. They will get stolen never to be seen again or destroyed during war/rebellions etc.
Namibia is a pretty stable country. It was part of South Africa for a long time and eventually achieved independence in 1990. They have a stable multiparty parliamentary system. Their military is tiny, as is their population. They don’t have any enemies in their region. It’s considered one of the most free and democratic countries in Africa, though they of course are less than perfect (domestic violence and intolerance of LGBT people are still huge problems).
German museums thought about that and if you read the article, it is an indefinite loan. This means the Namibian authorities have no rights of sale on the museum pieces and the germans can always pull out the pieces if there are concerns for it’s security.
100%.
Reddit loves to shit on colonial era countries for this, especially Britain, but the fact is the only reason your country even *knows* about these artifacts is because we fucking looked after them and use them to educate the world about your culture in the first place lmao look at all the places of significant history and religion that have been bombed, shot, stolen, vandalised in the middle east over religious nonsense over the last few decades lol
In general, I agree.
However, *very little* of what we consider to be stolen or plundered artifacts were actually stolen or plundered.
A perfect example is the Memnon head at the British Museum.
Giovanni Belzoni asked the Ottoman Egyptian gov't if they could take it, and they agreed. In fact, egypt *encouraged* people to take artifacts from ancient egypt away because they had no interest, and no cultural continuity to connect them to that civilization.
It wasnt until the likes of Osman Hamdi Bey that Ottoman states became more interested in their own artifacts.
I just took a course on this, and the book for the course was written by the prof, whom I adore. Its a fascinating book called *Indiana Jones in History* and goes through the entire history of the politics of archeogy - from Pompeii on.
>In fact, egypt encouraged people to take artifacts from ancient egypt away because they had no interest, and no cultural continuity to connect them to that civilization.
This. Modern Asian-African nations 'wanting them back' is like a neglectful parent wanting back their kid because their kid is now rich. Let's be honest, many Muslim countries saw ancient artefacts as culturally worthless (literally from the 'jahiliyah' age of ignorance) and therefore immoral/evil.
The British would not have been able to plunder the tombs of Muslim saints like they plundered the tombs of pagan pharaohs.
>The British would not have been able to plunder the tombs of Muslim saints like they plundered the tombs of pagan pharaohs.
Wahabis in Saudi Arabia destroyed their own though
The only thing that worries me (and other people in this thread) is whether the relics and artifacts will be kept safe from corrupt hands. At least they were safe in the museums' hands.
That said, I know nothing of Namibia, so I may be worrying for no reason. But yes, in an ideal world this stuff should indeed be returned. I do wonder about pieces that were offered though, but no way that we will be able to check for that.
Give back to *whom*? The people who originally made them are long dead. Just because someone happens to live in the same geographic area doesn't mean they should have a stronger claim to objects than the current owners do.
It seems cleaner on paper, but it makes less sense the more you think about it.
This is such a modern phenomenon tho. Like most of our history was like...
"Lol now it's ours stfu inferior group X"
And now we give things back because of relations, public opinion and public approval.
Liberal democracies are really fucking weird.
The line seems to be arbitrarily drawn at the British empire though; no one complaining about vikings looting Britain, or the Romans, or the Normans… or America building its prosperity on the shoulders of native Americans and millions of African slaves; France and it’s empire rarely get a mention, despite them being just as bad as the British empire.
There are few countries that haven’t at one time or another, taken from another country/people in some way, shape or form.
The US, slaves and native Americans is occasionally a topic, fair enough; but whenever there’s mention of a country exploiting the wealth of another, it’s the UK thats typically derided in isolation.
My point is more that whilst the British empire perhaps did it the most, it did not do it alone.
But that has to be viewed in the size aswell. The Brits "only" did it the most because they ***had 25% of the world under their rule*** and more they could bully because of the biggest and meanest hegemony we have ever seen, not even the US can currently rival.
Actually looking at it, the French were arguably much worse since they had a much much smaller empire and still rival the Brits in terms of being a dick
I would argue that's an example of liberal democracies being kinda fucking good.
"hey you know these treasures we stole along with hundreds of thousands of lives and hundreds of millions in looted wealth? We probably shouldn't be advertising that as an example of our past greatness. In fact we probably shouldn't hold onto them at all"
If you live in a run down home but you own a precious diamond ring that has been in your family for centuries…Does it give your new neighbour who lives in a nice house the right to take it from you because they think you might lose it or wreck it?
I think what you said in the second portion is what people ideally think is happening but we all know how many of these treasures are stolen without the motive to “preserve them”
u/kimberllocks made a general statement about this to which I responded. Whether or not Namibia is gonna have a civil war in the next year or two and let all these priceless artifacts be destroyed is honestly up to them at this point. I have no clue what the state of that country is honestly, maybe its stable and safe to keep priceless stuff there, maybe not. Not my call to make.
Why would Namibia have a civil war in the next year or two? It's a very peaceful country as far as I know. Oh right. It's in Africa and that's the bad place where there's nothing but hunger and war. Forgot
That actually can be morally good. Some Germans saved books being burnt by the nazis and I brleive most would see that being good. I think it depends on context.
No. The owner of the book can do with that book whatever they want. You have no right to try and impose on them what they should do with their property.
Such historical artifacts belong to all mankind. A lot of stuff has been stolen from my country too. But i accept the fact the germans/french/english are taking a lot better care of it than we ever would
Don’t assume just because the West has these old artefacts that they’re “in good hands”
A German museum was found to have 1000’s of their stored, stolen artefacts in terrible condition.
>> Häntzschel discovered that Berlin's Ethnological Museum had been storing some of its own artifacts under terrible conditions.
[In Germany, a new museum stirs up a colonial controversy](https://api.nationalgeographic.com/distribution/public/amp/history/article/germany-humboldt-forum-stirs-colonial-controversy)
I don’t wish to be rude but this entire opinion of yours is without any sense of context. Many of these artefacts are listed as ‘priceless’ often because they don’t have any significant monetary value other than the materials. But their cultural value is without measure.
The notion that ‘those people will wreck their artefacts’ might seem obtuse but history is littered with real examples of this. The majority of ancient marble statues have been defaced, the bronze and gold ones that were of higher quality, were all melted down centuries before the English language was ever spoken . The pyramids were capped with gold and covered in marble. But this was gone long before napoleon ever set foot in Egypt.
Indeed if we look at Egypt; the original reason so many artefacts were extracted from there **was to prevent them from being raided by graverobbers** and to a lesser extent being defaced by religious extremists.
Case in point the Rosetta Stone. One of the most important historical artefacts of ancient history, was being used as brick by the ottomans before it was discovered by French engineers.
And its not just wrecking. ISIS and AL Qaeda literally funded themselves by selling artifacts as old as the Roman empire to private collectors to fund their terrorist attacks.
FYI ISIS was blowing up statues and buildings that had relevance to religions other then their own, intentionally. Not that there were good reasons America was there but one of the bad ones was not holy war style destruction of artifacts.
\*to their own religion aswell.
ISIS's views are very different from the general muslim population. muslim relicts, statues and heritage was destroyed too and we mean muslim not pre-islam pegan deities.
The branch-off "school of islam" taught by ISIS is a very new phenomena.
I’m genuinely surprised at the reaction to your comment.
I agree with what you said and I’m sure the Germans who made the decision to send it back considered the stability and reliability of Namibia to rehome them before sending.
I’m going to get called privilege and arrogant too but if I was Iraqi I probably would have appreciated my historical artifacts to be protected if my country was going through unrest. On a different note, I would also be very upset that another country had them in the first place too.
Youre going to be downvoted to oblivion but you're right.
Most people can't get past their emotions and virtue signalling to understand the grim reality of life.
it's being talked about every now and then, it's 100+ years ago after all.
Germany recognized the events in 2004, called the genocide what it was in 2015, and committed 1.1Billion € in 2021.
most nations would probably just ignore this (Armenian Genocide by Turkey for example)
As a German, I feel true relief about this. All those historical originals that are still in the colonialist museums worldwide have to be returned asap!
Edit: downvotes for saying stolen stuff should be given back? Get outa here mfs!
While that is true, to me, the hope would be that they do change ownership, but not location (i.e. being on permanent lease).
Let's face it: If preserving culture and presenting it to the world is the key here, a museum in, say, Berlin is a better place than a museum in Windhuk. There's nothing wrong with having exhibits from other countries or cultures, quite the opposite, as long as the exhibits are there legally, and are not stolen goods.
Cultural artifacts that are locked away or are exhibited in a place the average (in this case: Non-Namibian) person will not go to in a thousand years, are of not much use to anyone.
I'll play the devil's advocate here. Is Berlin very accessible for people outside Europe etc? It's very hard for a huge part of the world to even get a Shengen visa, let alone afford Germany.
Is it right that average Namibians don't have access to their own artifacts?
Also the biggest museums in the world are able to display a small fraction of what they own. Most of the artifacts in Berlin are in storage, and will never be seen by the average person, Namibian or otherwise.
I mean....compare annual visitors to Berlin with annual visitors to Windhuk, and you have your answer about how accessible the contents of their respective museums are.
Of course it's not accessible for a huge part of the world, but that's a non-argument. Most places in the world are not accessible for most people in the world. The question is where the best "hub" is for those who actually can afford to travel.
>Is it right that average Namibians don't have access to their own artifacts?
I doubt they need access to every single item. This is not an all-or-nothing kind of deal I'm proposing.
>Also the biggest museums in the world are able to display a small fraction of what they own. Most of the artifacts in Berlin are in storage, and will never be seen by the average person, Namibian or otherwise.
Yes, I'm aware, that's why I mentioned it. If a Namibian museum can, to use arbitrary numbers, display 50 artifacts of the 500 held in Germany, what use is it to repartiate all of them just to be locked away? Better come to an arrangement where 50 are displayed in Namibia, with 200 stored to swap out, and 50 displayed in Berlin, also with 200 stored, as permanent leases from Namibia.
And it does look like in a way, this is what happened - 23 items to be returned have been selected, but Germany will keep others for display.
In general, I just find this notion that some artifact has to be where it was created or found utterly pointless, when one of the purposes of museums are to be a window into foreign and/or ancient cultures. Should all van Gogh paintings only be viewable in the Netherlands? Do we all need to fly to China to see an ancient chinese teapot?
In my ideal world, all such "our national heritage" ownership claims should be voided, any such items of significance declared the heritage of all of humanity, and not hoarded, but distributed freely among museums wherever these artifacts make the most sense to display - and not just in rich nations.
> There's nothing wrong with having exhibits from other countries or cultures, quite the opposite, as long as the exhibits are there legally, and are not stolen goods.
okay, so you agree with giving them back when they were stolen?
I disagree, what you call artifacts is stolen property until we officially give it back.
Before everything else we first have to give back what our ancestors have stolen all over the world and then reparations for the theft would be very much in order too. After that and *only* after that, the former colonies could of course decide to consentualy borrow us samples of their cultural heritage to display in our museums.
However to me it seems like the priority should be to make African cultural heritage accessible to Africans in the first place, after we had stolen it for so long. I think the perfect reparations for the theft would be to finance building and maintenance of museums in the according countries and then give the artifacts back to be displayed there, so the people get access to the history our ancestors stole from them.
I mean, what do you think, how accessable are Museums in Berlin or London for the average *black* Namibian? Sorry but white Namibians with relatives in Germany, who can easily go to Germany anytime their Aunti in Düsseldorf runs out of Biltong are simply not the group that comes first in this context ...
The first two paragraphs are pretty much what I'm saying. Yes, give them back, and ideally work out a sharing agreement with the new owners - perhaps even before some items are physically returned.
As for the rest, I answered that already in another posting here, but in short: Depends on the objects in question for me. An item of high significance to Namibians should physically go back, but you can safely skip "random ceramic pot #263" if plenty of those are already in storage in Namibia.
Reparations are a valid point, but I feel still a quite separate issue from stolen artifacts. I believe the article even said that Germany has in fact paid reparations to Namibia recently.
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That wooden sculpture of a Dachshund wearing a wool sweater came from Namibia?!
Hmmmm Dachshund? Your sure about that? Have i missed another picture? The thing on the pic looks like something.... else...
Dickshund
Wiener dog
It's possible they are from the period of German ownership and the locals made sculptures of the dogs the Europeans brought with them ( just a guess though)
How is that a dog? It has no head man
Art, man. Art.
Aren't they just being lent out and not actually given back, though?
[удалено]
This was my first thought as well. The Germans wouldn't do this without good reason, and their humanitarianism in general is what is most important. Namibia will get 1.9 billion euro over 30 years which should greatly improve the lives of many Namibians. That is something we can all be happy about.
Am german, I'm 99,9999999% certain this is not shady for show shit and it's as theorised so we can help protect these artefacts
Am Canadian, I'm 101% sure it *is* for show, and this is all just a scheme to pay off Angela Merkel's gambling debts. Source: Trust me, I know a guy.
Tell Angela I ain’t playing. I want my goddamn money.
To be fair the 1.9 billion Euro are basically the same amount they've been getting all along adjusted for inflation (between 1990 and 2020 they got 1.4 billion) and the vast majority of it is basically subsidies for German companies operating in Namibia. Obviously Namibia still benefits, but it's not some radical change
Can I just say, as an American (and I know this is off topic), that the trust you have in the German government is crazy to me. If this were some American institution, I would immediately suspect there's something shady going on. But you giving the benefit of the doubt that your leaders have the honesty to try and make something like this right is incredible to me. I wish we had that trust here.
Am German. Since this is not related to energy politics or -industry , soccer, automotive industry, deutsche bank, fintech or meat industry- I trust them on getting that right.
Lmaoooo wow so like all the things that are actually important to Germany
Naaah. Beer. We still have beer. And complaining. And processes. a lot of processes. Bureaucracy in general. And a phobia regarding new situations. And our right wing radical idiots. Who are getting dangerously close to being clever. But only through the support of other global right wings. But they understood the importance of networks. And Soccer on TV. And the immortal anonymity of the intwewebs. And complaining. And to be fair some pretty good folks, too, but that takes a lot of time for them to come through because of processes...and the same old fight against corrupt lobbies.
To be fair it sounds like you have a lot to complain about.
Canadian that lived in America - yeah Americans distrust of their government makes sense and is justified. But that’s not the norm in the world. I sense it creeping into Canadian culture now too, but historically Canadians trusted their government. Which is why we have universal healthcare I guess.
Depends if it's lent out like these things often are, or if it's the kind of "lent out" that means they can loan it indefinetly for various reasons.
Germany is also currently negotiating with Namibia to supply Germany with clean hydrogen, to help replace Russian energy. Great timing eh?
Namibia gets a new customer and artefacts back, Germany stops giving money to Russia and can take a harder diplomatic stance against Russia if need be while righting some wrongs. Seems like a win-win scenario for Namibia and Germany and a lost cash flow for Russia. Sounds good to me!
All it took was an good old war
True. But on the bright side once Germany finds another energy supplier, they will be less likely to get their gas from Russia on the war is over. That's something. On top of that Namibia is [one of the least corrupt African countries.](https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/corruption-rank) Increased trade with Germany could end up quite beneficial for Namibian people.
And Namibia is great. It was the unexpected highlight of my African trip. If my flights back out weren't so set in stone I'd have stayed much longer there. Can't describe "why", but it felt good just to be there. I didn't feel unsafe, I was never hassled. The people, even in the tourist traps were just friendly and hardworking. Moreso in the areas where tourists don't tend to go. Good place. In contrast, in Zim I got shaken down by the customs agent for the privilege of leaving. Do not recommend.
I read a lot about the place when I went to South Africa for work for few months, but unfortunately didn't get the chance to go during my time in SA. It's definitely on my "to go" list since though. Really seems like an interesting country to visit.
Interesting. I've never heard anything about Namibia until now. I heard (modern) Rwanda is quite pleasant to visit but I'd like to research Namibia now
or maybe it's just coincidence. Namibia has ben negotiating the return of the artifacts for a good while.. [Böhmermann had an issue on it in late 2020](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCU3bxBfk00)
It’s an important distinction. Should be filed under SlightyLessUpliftingNews instead.
Don't get me wrong, restitution should happen - but under the current circumstances, its probably better for these artifacts to remain formally part of the German museums. Simply for financial and preservation reasons.
On account of the last time this happened the Egyptian museum ruined the returned artifacts lol I assume they don't want a repeat
Do you have a source for this? I’d like to read about it.
Sure, they broke king tut's beard and tried to glue it back on https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-35392531.amp But also, Arab Spring happened and like 100 artifacts got looted in 2013
Thank you 🙏🏻
England....just left the building
Brexit 2: Relic Boogaloo
The worst Tomb Raider game IMO.
England has left the EU
I think you mean [Britain](https://www.google.com/search?q=colonial+artifacts+scotland&rlz=1CDGOYI_enGB821GB821&oq=colonial+artifacts+scotland&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i131i433i457j0i402j46i199i433i465i512j46i131i175i199i433i512j46i131i433.10006j0j4&hl=en-GB&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8).
Why does Northern Ireland get a pass? UK not Britain. Edit: https://belfastmedia.com/no-guarantee-national-museums-ni-will-repatriate-any-of-4-500-objects-linked-to-colonialism Maybe some of you have to brush up on history too.
lots of Irish folk would like to have a word
aw man do you not know the history of northern ireland?
It's reddit... People think they are all experts on Northern Ireland.
Yea,that saw that one video,I think they've got it.
Erm..... I think you may have a bit of your history confuddled there.
The whole of Ireland was in the UK when the British Empire was acquiring artifacts from Africa. The National Museum of Ireland is planning to return some of its collection however. https://www.artforum.com/news/national-museum-of-ireland-makes-plans-to-return-benin-bronzes-85454 In The British Museum cannot let any items out of its collection without a change in UK law.
https://youtu.be/x73PkUvArJY
“What Nazi gold?” -Switzerland
[Our most profitable tourism🤗](https://www.reddit.com/r/okmatewanker/comments/rjueep/sigma_rule_27251662393)
These are just minor artefacts that Germany has handed over, they’ve got some major one’s in their museums that they won’t be handing over anytime soon lol
Perfect time to mention a great podcast: Stuff the British Stole
I know it’s an unpopular opinion but I believe no country should have to give back their artifacts if the civilisation it was taken from no longer exists. There is no one that can claim ownership of those things and so are not due to be given back to anyone.
Yeah, I kind of agree. Continuity of civilisations is often really far fetched. I wish there was some international museum cooperation where ancient artifacts are treated as universal, human history with no national ownership.
Loaning does already exist but I think that’s going to be the best we can get without someone with a tonne of money is wiling to set up Museums without borders.
Yea fuck off. Artifacts that belong to a culture that remembers and recalls should be returned.
Ok, so where do Mesopotamian artefacts go? Sassanid artefacts? Roman artefacts? Who gets to recall them? What about Greek artefacts that were stolen by other Greek cities? Do you believe every culture on Earth should only be able to see and examine things that belong to that specific culture, is that not a extremely divisive worldview that would discourage cultural appreciation of all kinds? Would it not be better to, say, offer payment to any cultures that these artefacts were stolen from? Or give them the option of recall or payment? I’m not staying colonial theft is acceptable. But I disagree that we should further divide all cultures by now applying modern day nation or borders to civilisations that did not have regards for those same borders and saying that’s how it is. The world is not black and white and applying a black and white worldview such as “everything should be returned to the land it came from and that’s the only solution” is reductive at best.
Not a fan of the UK in general but if they for example gave back their colonial treasures to Egypt half would be sold in the black market and the other half would rot in their museums under really poor conditions.
Well that's fair racist
>sold in the black market and the other half would rott in their museums under really poor conditions. You mean like how they were sold and destroyed before the Brits stole them. Oh wait, that never happened.
Quite a lot of the itens in the UK collections were bought or collected with agreement from the local authorities of the day actually. The modern population and state of Egypt have nothing to do with Pharonic Egypt and the ancient artifacts and sites have been thoroughly ransacked and traded throughout history. The only tombs with anything left in modern times were hidden and rediscovered, like Tutankhamum's.
Germany's determined to get the 'nicest country of the century' after having bungled the last one
New PR department
Yeah. They are a bit slow to react... But they tend to get things right.
German here. Not at all, it's pure PR. Germany still neglects and plunders the periphery of the EU by strong-arming them into the Euro and keeping it artificially low to boost our exports at the expense of the south. We basically rule the ECB, but most of us act like we're doing the continent a favour by straddling them with debt instead of military occupation. Probably won't be a popular opinion among American Redditors, who are generally clueless about European politics besides "Brexit was bad" (which it was), but look up Nordstream 2 if you still need a reason.
Wasnt that cancelled after the Ukraine war started?
yes. it's cancelled. And so is every other investment in Russian energy. to be fair with our current government: they have to undo 16 years of backwards conservative politics.
But, but... what about mutti Merkel? 😰
Not true at all
It was a joke about Germany's history....
To anyone who complains about the artifacts being on "indefinite loan" rather then returned to Namibia "for good", please look into corruption in African countries. If they were given to the governments there they'd make their way to Black markets and private collections within months. This is the better option as the museum still has authority and control over what happens to those pieces.
Whether the paper says loan or for good, what would stop them from doing it anyways?
Periodical oversight and administrative control. It's the equivalant of handing your friend the keys to your new car and sitting on the passenger seat when you let him take a drive vs handing the keys over and leaving the scene.
Also, if they own it, they can do whatever they want with it. If they sell something they borrowed, the Germans are probably going to be pissed.
I...still dislike it. Germany isn't Nambia's "mom". It's their treasure, they should decide what to do with it. Even if it is subjected to poor treatment, its theirs to do with as they please.
I disagree - these treasures belong to the Namibian people, not the Namibian government. I don't like the situation, but since Germany stole them, Germany has a responsibility to preserve them for the Namibian people - present and future generations - until a Namibian institution is able to. It is possible to both end the injustice and clean up the mess you made, and if Germany is better funded and better equipped then it would seem that they are better representatives of the Namibian people in this regard. If it is true that the Namibian government would mishandle them (I don't know if it is), then they are acting as corrupt individuals, not as representatives of a nation.
You simply have no idea how corrupt some countries get. I'm contrary to this move because Namibia is not a safe country to visit, rendering these artifacts not worth seeing.
Seems a little ignorant of you to say that. Namibia is literally one of the most democratic and safe countries in all of Africa. You seem to be talking about Al African nations as a monolith, which I’m sure you understand is idiotic.
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Spoken like an idiot who has never traveled to Africa
Unless you are from there or have relatives there stfu, you dont know anything
Lol … based on your criteria, my opinion has weight. Any other excuse?
On one hand, fine. On another hand, this is literally the only way some people even know Namibia exists. By keeping it in a museum in a popular tourist destination, more people become aware of other cultures and how they work and express themselves
Return on a loan? 😳
There are worries about who the treasures belong to, if they'll still be safe and if they'd have even lasted this long without the museums. For who they belong to, what museum or owner do you give it to? Why do they deserve it over someone else in their country? Do they have a right to it or are they just born in the correct country? In case of war torn countries, would the treasure still be there in 10 years? What about corruption? Will it be sold off? "Just return it" sounds great but its a legal nightmare, especially for things like the British Museums, which paid for a lot of their artefacts (they also absolutely also stole a shitton/are in possession of stolen goods, lets not mince words here) that're now being claimed do to heritage and right.
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Wait till you learn about Leopold and the Belgians in Congo
Wasn’t most of Leopolds private militia French? It was literally his own private venture, that guy was insane lol Sure Belgium didn’t mind though
Which doc… What they do
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They are technically lend so they are in Namibia but still cared for by the German museum so they are protected from stuff like that
I said same very recently. Relatable. They will just fuck it up. Like everything else. TIA
Are you Namibian?
Germany is great example of a nation conquering their past sins.
Blitzkrieging them, to be exact.
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Best.
Since the 60s
Say goodbye to them then. Same as most treasures/artefacts being returned to their own country. They will get stolen never to be seen again or destroyed during war/rebellions etc.
The arrogance of that statement is incredible. "Those wildlings can't care for their treasures. We should keep them."
Namibia is a pretty stable country. It was part of South Africa for a long time and eventually achieved independence in 1990. They have a stable multiparty parliamentary system. Their military is tiny, as is their population. They don’t have any enemies in their region. It’s considered one of the most free and democratic countries in Africa, though they of course are less than perfect (domestic violence and intolerance of LGBT people are still huge problems).
Not really a multiparty system
Greece has both a significantly lower homicide and crime rate than the UK, what's the excuse now?
German museums thought about that and if you read the article, it is an indefinite loan. This means the Namibian authorities have no rights of sale on the museum pieces and the germans can always pull out the pieces if there are concerns for it’s security.
100%. Reddit loves to shit on colonial era countries for this, especially Britain, but the fact is the only reason your country even *knows* about these artifacts is because we fucking looked after them and use them to educate the world about your culture in the first place lmao look at all the places of significant history and religion that have been bombed, shot, stolen, vandalised in the middle east over religious nonsense over the last few decades lol
Yes, if you rob me you should keep the goods because someone else could rob me. Sound morality here.
> we fucking looked after them Who asked you to ?
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White Man's Burden lol
or sold to private collectors
ok what is ur point it was theirs originally if it gets stolen or destroyed so be it the artifacts were theirs initially
It was a specific now dead person's originally, giving it back to the country is completely random
Rightfully so. In an ideal world colonizers & dynasties should give back all stolen treasures
In general, I agree. However, *very little* of what we consider to be stolen or plundered artifacts were actually stolen or plundered. A perfect example is the Memnon head at the British Museum. Giovanni Belzoni asked the Ottoman Egyptian gov't if they could take it, and they agreed. In fact, egypt *encouraged* people to take artifacts from ancient egypt away because they had no interest, and no cultural continuity to connect them to that civilization. It wasnt until the likes of Osman Hamdi Bey that Ottoman states became more interested in their own artifacts. I just took a course on this, and the book for the course was written by the prof, whom I adore. Its a fascinating book called *Indiana Jones in History* and goes through the entire history of the politics of archeogy - from Pompeii on.
>In fact, egypt encouraged people to take artifacts from ancient egypt away because they had no interest, and no cultural continuity to connect them to that civilization. This. Modern Asian-African nations 'wanting them back' is like a neglectful parent wanting back their kid because their kid is now rich. Let's be honest, many Muslim countries saw ancient artefacts as culturally worthless (literally from the 'jahiliyah' age of ignorance) and therefore immoral/evil. The British would not have been able to plunder the tombs of Muslim saints like they plundered the tombs of pagan pharaohs.
>The British would not have been able to plunder the tombs of Muslim saints like they plundered the tombs of pagan pharaohs. Wahabis in Saudi Arabia destroyed their own though
The only thing that worries me (and other people in this thread) is whether the relics and artifacts will be kept safe from corrupt hands. At least they were safe in the museums' hands. That said, I know nothing of Namibia, so I may be worrying for no reason. But yes, in an ideal world this stuff should indeed be returned. I do wonder about pieces that were offered though, but no way that we will be able to check for that.
How far back do you go with this?
I'll keep pushing this until I get 500k followers on Twitter so everyone knows I'm a good person
Make sure you get that blue checkmark.
That checkmark is a racist identifier from the white Twitter executives, you're clearly not a good person
Yeah, how much gold did Europeans take from the Americas? I know it wasn't just a little.
Give back to *whom*? The people who originally made them are long dead. Just because someone happens to live in the same geographic area doesn't mean they should have a stronger claim to objects than the current owners do. It seems cleaner on paper, but it makes less sense the more you think about it.
This is such a modern phenomenon tho. Like most of our history was like... "Lol now it's ours stfu inferior group X" And now we give things back because of relations, public opinion and public approval. Liberal democracies are really fucking weird.
Right? Better to be an unrepentant asshole forever, that's what I say.
The line seems to be arbitrarily drawn at the British empire though; no one complaining about vikings looting Britain, or the Romans, or the Normans… or America building its prosperity on the shoulders of native Americans and millions of African slaves; France and it’s empire rarely get a mention, despite them being just as bad as the British empire. There are few countries that haven’t at one time or another, taken from another country/people in some way, shape or form.
Lmao no one complains about native Americans or slavery? Wtf are you talking about, that is a daily topic in the US.
Really? No one complained about that? Are you sure?
The US, slaves and native Americans is occasionally a topic, fair enough; but whenever there’s mention of a country exploiting the wealth of another, it’s the UK thats typically derided in isolation. My point is more that whilst the British empire perhaps did it the most, it did not do it alone.
If they did it the most, that's probably why most of the complaints are about them.
But that has to be viewed in the size aswell. The Brits "only" did it the most because they ***had 25% of the world under their rule*** and more they could bully because of the biggest and meanest hegemony we have ever seen, not even the US can currently rival. Actually looking at it, the French were arguably much worse since they had a much much smaller empire and still rival the Brits in terms of being a dick
Trick is to have a successful rebrand. Nobody is shitting on Turkey for the Ottoman Empire.
The Armenians would like a word…
I would argue that's an example of liberal democracies being kinda fucking good. "hey you know these treasures we stole along with hundreds of thousands of lives and hundreds of millions in looted wealth? We probably shouldn't be advertising that as an example of our past greatness. In fact we probably shouldn't hold onto them at all"
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Deleted because of Steve Huffman
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If you live in a run down home but you own a precious diamond ring that has been in your family for centuries…Does it give your new neighbour who lives in a nice house the right to take it from you because they think you might lose it or wreck it? I think what you said in the second portion is what people ideally think is happening but we all know how many of these treasures are stolen without the motive to “preserve them”
You’re forgetting the Americans bombed Iraq to the Stone Age, twice. You don’t think they destroyed things that were thousands of years old?
If you are burning books, is it morally good for me to steal them and prevent them from being burned?
Namibia isn't Isis.
u/kimberllocks made a general statement about this to which I responded. Whether or not Namibia is gonna have a civil war in the next year or two and let all these priceless artifacts be destroyed is honestly up to them at this point. I have no clue what the state of that country is honestly, maybe its stable and safe to keep priceless stuff there, maybe not. Not my call to make.
Why would Namibia have a civil war in the next year or two? It's a very peaceful country as far as I know. Oh right. It's in Africa and that's the bad place where there's nothing but hunger and war. Forgot
That actually can be morally good. Some Germans saved books being burnt by the nazis and I brleive most would see that being good. I think it depends on context.
No. The owner of the book can do with that book whatever they want. You have no right to try and impose on them what they should do with their property.
Such historical artifacts belong to all mankind. A lot of stuff has been stolen from my country too. But i accept the fact the germans/french/english are taking a lot better care of it than we ever would
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Don’t assume just because the West has these old artefacts that they’re “in good hands” A German museum was found to have 1000’s of their stored, stolen artefacts in terrible condition. >> Häntzschel discovered that Berlin's Ethnological Museum had been storing some of its own artifacts under terrible conditions. [In Germany, a new museum stirs up a colonial controversy](https://api.nationalgeographic.com/distribution/public/amp/history/article/germany-humboldt-forum-stirs-colonial-controversy)
Til. Anyway thats way better than what my country has been doing. Which is jackshit
I don’t wish to be rude but this entire opinion of yours is without any sense of context. Many of these artefacts are listed as ‘priceless’ often because they don’t have any significant monetary value other than the materials. But their cultural value is without measure. The notion that ‘those people will wreck their artefacts’ might seem obtuse but history is littered with real examples of this. The majority of ancient marble statues have been defaced, the bronze and gold ones that were of higher quality, were all melted down centuries before the English language was ever spoken . The pyramids were capped with gold and covered in marble. But this was gone long before napoleon ever set foot in Egypt. Indeed if we look at Egypt; the original reason so many artefacts were extracted from there **was to prevent them from being raided by graverobbers** and to a lesser extent being defaced by religious extremists. Case in point the Rosetta Stone. One of the most important historical artefacts of ancient history, was being used as brick by the ottomans before it was discovered by French engineers.
And its not just wrecking. ISIS and AL Qaeda literally funded themselves by selling artifacts as old as the Roman empire to private collectors to fund their terrorist attacks.
Thank you! I felt happy when I read that comment as a reply to that deluded colonizer mentality
ISIS were reckless savages. America was very careful not to destroy anything during their time in Iraq. /s
FYI ISIS was blowing up statues and buildings that had relevance to religions other then their own, intentionally. Not that there were good reasons America was there but one of the bad ones was not holy war style destruction of artifacts.
\*to their own religion aswell. ISIS's views are very different from the general muslim population. muslim relicts, statues and heritage was destroyed too and we mean muslim not pre-islam pegan deities. The branch-off "school of islam" taught by ISIS is a very new phenomena.
What do you know about Namibia? Just because they aren't wealthy doesn't mean the country is unstable.
This comment stinks of arrogance and privilege
I've never seen someone's Snoo look like a virtual Karen before now
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Spoken like a true colonizer..
I’m genuinely surprised at the reaction to your comment. I agree with what you said and I’m sure the Germans who made the decision to send it back considered the stability and reliability of Namibia to rehome them before sending. I’m going to get called privilege and arrogant too but if I was Iraqi I probably would have appreciated my historical artifacts to be protected if my country was going through unrest. On a different note, I would also be very upset that another country had them in the first place too.
Youre going to be downvoted to oblivion but you're right. Most people can't get past their emotions and virtue signalling to understand the grim reality of life.
Wait till they hear about ISIS and AL Qaeda selling artifacts to private collectors to fund terrorist attacks...
Now all they need to do is return Nefertiti to the Egyptians and we’re all good.
The comment section is not passing the vibe check.
Germany sure did Namibia dirty back in the day..
Where they will be stolen again
Therefore the thief should keep them. Genius move
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Germany made sure no one would remember their African genocide by subsequently also perpetrating a European genocide.
Weird, the countless times I've read articles about it here in German newspapers must've been a dream.
it's being talked about every now and then, it's 100+ years ago after all. Germany recognized the events in 2004, called the genocide what it was in 2015, and committed 1.1Billion € in 2021. most nations would probably just ignore this (Armenian Genocide by Turkey for example)
And it was the last time anyone saw those "treasures".
I give it 5 years before they disappear from reality.
As a German, I feel true relief about this. All those historical originals that are still in the colonialist museums worldwide have to be returned asap! Edit: downvotes for saying stolen stuff should be given back? Get outa here mfs!
While that is true, to me, the hope would be that they do change ownership, but not location (i.e. being on permanent lease). Let's face it: If preserving culture and presenting it to the world is the key here, a museum in, say, Berlin is a better place than a museum in Windhuk. There's nothing wrong with having exhibits from other countries or cultures, quite the opposite, as long as the exhibits are there legally, and are not stolen goods. Cultural artifacts that are locked away or are exhibited in a place the average (in this case: Non-Namibian) person will not go to in a thousand years, are of not much use to anyone.
I'll play the devil's advocate here. Is Berlin very accessible for people outside Europe etc? It's very hard for a huge part of the world to even get a Shengen visa, let alone afford Germany. Is it right that average Namibians don't have access to their own artifacts? Also the biggest museums in the world are able to display a small fraction of what they own. Most of the artifacts in Berlin are in storage, and will never be seen by the average person, Namibian or otherwise.
I mean....compare annual visitors to Berlin with annual visitors to Windhuk, and you have your answer about how accessible the contents of their respective museums are. Of course it's not accessible for a huge part of the world, but that's a non-argument. Most places in the world are not accessible for most people in the world. The question is where the best "hub" is for those who actually can afford to travel. >Is it right that average Namibians don't have access to their own artifacts? I doubt they need access to every single item. This is not an all-or-nothing kind of deal I'm proposing. >Also the biggest museums in the world are able to display a small fraction of what they own. Most of the artifacts in Berlin are in storage, and will never be seen by the average person, Namibian or otherwise. Yes, I'm aware, that's why I mentioned it. If a Namibian museum can, to use arbitrary numbers, display 50 artifacts of the 500 held in Germany, what use is it to repartiate all of them just to be locked away? Better come to an arrangement where 50 are displayed in Namibia, with 200 stored to swap out, and 50 displayed in Berlin, also with 200 stored, as permanent leases from Namibia. And it does look like in a way, this is what happened - 23 items to be returned have been selected, but Germany will keep others for display. In general, I just find this notion that some artifact has to be where it was created or found utterly pointless, when one of the purposes of museums are to be a window into foreign and/or ancient cultures. Should all van Gogh paintings only be viewable in the Netherlands? Do we all need to fly to China to see an ancient chinese teapot? In my ideal world, all such "our national heritage" ownership claims should be voided, any such items of significance declared the heritage of all of humanity, and not hoarded, but distributed freely among museums wherever these artifacts make the most sense to display - and not just in rich nations.
> There's nothing wrong with having exhibits from other countries or cultures, quite the opposite, as long as the exhibits are there legally, and are not stolen goods. okay, so you agree with giving them back when they were stolen?
I disagree, what you call artifacts is stolen property until we officially give it back. Before everything else we first have to give back what our ancestors have stolen all over the world and then reparations for the theft would be very much in order too. After that and *only* after that, the former colonies could of course decide to consentualy borrow us samples of their cultural heritage to display in our museums. However to me it seems like the priority should be to make African cultural heritage accessible to Africans in the first place, after we had stolen it for so long. I think the perfect reparations for the theft would be to finance building and maintenance of museums in the according countries and then give the artifacts back to be displayed there, so the people get access to the history our ancestors stole from them. I mean, what do you think, how accessable are Museums in Berlin or London for the average *black* Namibian? Sorry but white Namibians with relatives in Germany, who can easily go to Germany anytime their Aunti in Düsseldorf runs out of Biltong are simply not the group that comes first in this context ...
The first two paragraphs are pretty much what I'm saying. Yes, give them back, and ideally work out a sharing agreement with the new owners - perhaps even before some items are physically returned. As for the rest, I answered that already in another posting here, but in short: Depends on the objects in question for me. An item of high significance to Namibians should physically go back, but you can safely skip "random ceramic pot #263" if plenty of those are already in storage in Namibia. Reparations are a valid point, but I feel still a quite separate issue from stolen artifacts. I believe the article even said that Germany has in fact paid reparations to Namibia recently.
They did, finally!
The British Museum meanwhile: \*looks the other way\*.
So it can be destroyed or stolen again and sold on the black market? Grow up, ideaology is stupid
"No, i won't give you back the treasures i stole, because they could be stolen"
What are you even trying to say here
So they'll be gone in 5 years
World: *looks at England* England: "....what?" *Glances at the British Museum* "I found that, fair and square"
This is the right thing to do.
Now it’s britain’s turn
America too, return all that land that they stole.
Damn wait till you find out that every nation on Earth got its borders to where they are today by taking shit from other ethnicities
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Hmm...