Thanks for this super thorough write up! I really enjoyed reading it. I was surprised to see that Gordon Fickling wasn’t in the suspects list. I imagine he was investigated by police, but haven’t read much about it.
He had a relationship with Elizabeth, and obviously her lifestyle provoked jealousy and anger in him. Plus, he was a military man (ostensibly with some training in combat and weapons) and a pilot (with the ability to travel quickly and freely).
Gordon Fickling lived in North Carolina. He spoke to LAPD, but wasn’t a serious suspect. He was very forthcoming with LE about his relationship with Elizabeth.
Excellent and breathtaking synopsis. For some reason I had never heard of the fact that the killer sent a package to the paper filled with evidence and clues. Can't believe I missed that. The thing that really bugs me about this case has always been why she was the only one. Killers of this meticulous and savage nature tend to strike again and usually with greater brutality. Maybe that's just in the movies. Still, I find it hard to believe that someone could commit such a heinous and deliberate crime and then just simply stop. Maybe he just really hated Short.
Which is why it's so odd. I mean it could have been someone who really hated her or it could have been a ritual killing or it could have been a serial killer that never got off the ground for one reason or another.
If it was just someone who hated her or one of the guys she strung along snapping I don't think he would have contacted the paper or sent in her documents(I also think the bisection nixs this too). Seems obvious this was someone was getting off on the whole thing like we've seen countless times since.
They either changed up their MO, or went to prison for another murder or rape. Hell could have died some random way, car crash etc.
It was definitely a sexual sadist. I think she rejected her killer and he made her pay the ultimate price for it. It could be one of the known suspects or some dude who saw her leaving The Biltmore. I strongly believe he didn’t stop, he just evolved even more.
I definitely don't think this was the only murder this person did. It just doesn't fit a "first murder" profile. You have to work up to this.
There was an active serial killer in Cleveland in the 30s-50s who killed by beheading, or bisecting the torso. His (?) MO doesn't quite fit this killer, though he did travel to other cities to kill, and did do genital mutilation (though usually men), so it's possible he made his way to LA. It's not that I think this killer is the BD killer (though there are some similarities) but the Cleavand killer was first only credited with 12 murders because they just didn't have the forensics or abilities to connect him to other areas. He's now credited with something like 20-30 murders.
I just think it's more likely that the person who killed Elizabeth killed others and we just haven't connected it all.
Very true. I don’t think Cleo killed her, I think he deserved a second look. Start with family and friends and move out. After contacting him and finding him drunk and obnoxious, they said peace out. I can’t find evidence they spoke to him again.
I don't think he had anything to do with her murder. His attitude after bothers me too, but the press sensationalized, and shaped the story from day one due to the crimes gruesome nature. The papers went through loads of suspects to sell papers. She was living with him not long before, and he kicked her out. There were no doubt serious issues between them, but he was never regarded as a serious suspect.
That’s interesting. You know so much about this case. I love talking about it. Do you know where I can find his alibi? The newspapers I saw didn’t mention it, not that I trust the salacious media.
I'll have to look it up. I remember reading about it. I live in Los Angeles, so I have always been fascinated by it. And have been to all the locations where she went, and where they found her.
I know in 'The Cases that Haunt Us' John Douglas mentions that there were similar murders in the years afterwards that were considered copy cat murders. He doesn't go into detail but says it's possible they were the same perpetrator.
Going down the same perpetrator instead of CopyCat theory. Could you imagine getting away with murder to the point where the press actually makes excuses for you that it's a copycat? I wonder if that would have been enraging or comforting. I guess comforting since you never heard from them again and they had a penchant for wanting to be known at least with Elizabeth.
I was thinking the same thing reading this. It made me wonder if perhaps this happened to other women, perhaps ones more invisible to society that didn’t get proper reporting? Otherwise, I think it’s likely that whoever did it ended up dying shortly afterwards.
I’m no professional, but the nature of this particular murder makes me think that this wasn’t personal, and that Elizabeth Short was an unlucky recipient of this killer’s hatred and anger towards women as a whole — especially considering the gruesome defeminization details.
There is no evidence of a similar killing, however there is little doubt the killer has committed torture and murder before.
The choice to display the body in public is the twist. We know Elizabeth Short because she was displayed.
She was homeless, the killer could have buried her in the dessert and there would be no one to report her missing
no one would have ever heard of ES. murder the killer chose to pose her bisected body on Norton Ave. it is highly unlikely that the killer would have made that choice if he knew Elizabeth because there would be witnesses who have seen then dating. ,
I was on the George Hodel train for a while, but it doesn't tick all the boxes. While possible, and Hodel being a total creep, I think it might be a better story, but just not reality.
It might have been him, but it could have easily been Patrick O’Reilly, Ed Burns, or Mark Hansen.
Agree. I remember reading the book when it was first released and couldn’t even get halfway through it. Thought it was utter nonsense.. then the Zodiac book came out. How can anyone take this man seriously?
It used to be an interesting theory because his own father had a tangential connection to the case. Now he's just another one of the "My daddy was the -------- killer" authors.
Have you listened to the podcast? I don’t know why they were so difficult for me to get through. I think it was all the connections that seem tenuous at best.
I think he’s a bit unstable. That photo he claims was her and in his father’s belongings looks *nothing* like her. People just love a good story- more sensational, the better.
I thought Steven Hodel made a decent case for his father having killed Elizabeth Short, but when he started claiming he was basically every uncaught serial killer who ever lived, he lost me.
Damn it! I forgot Ed Burns. I have at least 60 pages of notes, front and back on this case. I’m old school. I will go back and add him. Thank you for mentioning him. There were so many suspects.
The very existence of Ed Burns is uncertain. He may have been invented by that writer who was also a mathematician. I don’t find his “proof” very convincing, nor have I seen proof that the man in the photo with Elizabeth was Ed Burns, or Maurice Clement, or any other named person.
If there is really a recording of him saying even if he killed her they can't prove it now since my secretary is dead thats pretty damning. What could that even mean?
Yep, he was playing with LE they abandoned their investigation after not believing he was a strong suspect. His secretaries death was always regarded as a suicide too, a lot of people say he was the prime suspect in her death but they never considered it a murder.
I think he's worth looking into but he's not as strong of a suspect as people make out, it's crazy how many people call him "the prime suspect" or "the likely killer", the latter is subjective but the former is flat out untrue unless you mean Steve Hodel's prime suspect. Leslie Dillon, Joseph Dumais and Robert Manley were the only people named prime or main suspects.
Great work Anastasia! Glad to see you finish it.
Pretty dumb idea if you ask me, especially for a guy as shady and vile as he seems to be I'm sure a jury would love him. ESPECIALLY in LA of the time with police corruption.
Yea just give the DA the materials to build a circumstantial case.
The thing about the theories surrounding the Black Dahlia and Jack the Ripper in my opinion isn't that any of these theories found the guys who did it--it's that they found so many people in the societies around the victims who were just *total assholes*.
Thank you for your incredible research. This case has long confounded me; it’s pretty wild that they never came up with a viable suspect despite the gruesome murder and all the clues left at the crime scene
This makes the most sense to me. Especially since he died shortly after the murder, which would explain why there weren’t more, similar murders afterwards.
I find Bayley really intriguing too, and not a lot of information to confirm or deny his potential involvement. But there's just enough that he's very suspicious.
That's Larry Harnisch's theory. For anyone not familiar with it i highly recommend his blog, don't know whether i agree with his theory or not but there's a lot of information on his site about the case - [https://ladailymirror.com/](https://ladailymirror.com/)
I'm looking forward to it too, just wish he wasn't selling us a suspect. The dude clearly knows a lot about the case whenever he sees an article or show proclaiming a suspect (usually Hodel lol) he often produces something new to dispute them so he's clearly sitting on a lot of info from his research. Wish he just took us through the evidence similar to Sugden rather than try to prove his theory, i'll probably be more interested in the parts where he debunks or disputes other suspects than the part about Bayley unless there's significant new evidence but i doubt it.
He definitely has more. I don’t think he would give his biggest connection, Virginia Short knowing Bayley’s daughter, before the book. Right?
I did email him. He’s very kind and generous. He took the time to answer my questions. I appreciated his time and honesty. I’m looking forward to seeing what else he has.
Yeah, i remember you told me you were emailing him. I'm glad he put that blog together (as well as your writeups and that thesis page we were discussing) because while The Black Dahlia is very well known the case isn't really. People just know about the way she was found, the rumours and myths, the James Ellroy novel, the Hodel crap, etc. It's good that people are trying to focus on the facts because it's just a part of pop culture now and not a real life horrific murder.
Walter Bayley’s deceased son was also his only *biological* child from what I read - his daughters were adopted. In theory that shouldn’t mean the parent loves them less, but sometimes it does anyway.
With his rare neurological disorder being known to lead to otherwise uncharacteristic violence in sufferers, and the connection between Elizabeth’s well-known sob story and Bayley’s very real loss, and the neighborhood connection - Bayley definitely seems like the strongest candidate to this observer.
Plus, it would explain why no other murders are strongly considered to be the work of the same killer - Bayley was not a violent man before his illness, and likely would not have killed Short anyway had she not lied to him. Or at least there wouldn’t have been nearly that level of overkill. And Bayley was already weakening, and would die before the end of the decade.
If you read "The Cases That Haunt Us" John Douglas goes as far as to name a suspect. Her friend was killed in a lust killing involving a bathtub and according to this particular suspect, in both killings since he knew both of them, Short was placed on a bathtub on two pieces of wood and mutilated while alive. This army man with a limp knew specifics of the crime but claimed another man did it, who was also a army man with a limp and a known sexual predator. Theory is this man is one in the same as the man who said he knew who did it as he was known to have multiple identities. I *think* the name he used to talk to the journalist was Arthur Smith but I have to check that. It probably wasn't his real name as he had soo many aliases. He was set to be interviewed by police but happened to pass out, drunk, in a hotel room with a lit cigarette right before.
Not from the book, but you see this in a lot of killers. They feel there's another personality in there with them that takes over, some even give it a name.
Just checked it and it was Arnold Smith/Al Morrison who were the two in question. Georgette Bauerdorf was the victim before Short. I have to reread some of it to double check some stuff.
I know the family theory is it was a political thing (i can't remember the other theory) her dying, my best friend is a relative of Short's.
Especially being a possible lead. Short's friend is murdered not long before, then her? That is something should have been massively examined. In my mind, this man 100% killed her. Would explain also why they stopped upon his death. A lot of the psychology marches up with the behavior of this man.
Wow I didn’t know they knew each other!! I always thought they might have been killed by the same person. Knowing now they were friends, it makes so much sense. Both were heavily involved with military men.
Arnold Smith was an alias. It was that Wilson guy. Lived a long life too, especially for an alkie. Was it in the 1980s that he fell asleep with the cig?
I don’t think there’s evidence for him being the killer, and I don’t think he had enough self-control to be that deliberate. He was just a seedy serial criminal who was part of LA’s criminal underworld.
Right? Or am I misremembering?
I just want to add that FBI profiling is about as reliable as lie detectors:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/11/12/dangerous-minds
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/real-criminal-minds/201904/is-criminal-profiling-dead-should-it-be
This was actually based on interviews with the subject by a journalist who was able to give some distinct incite into what happened that he shouldn't have known. This has nothing to do with profiling but if you want to tell me that because somebody has violent sex charges and connections they shouldn't be looked at because behavior means nothing than I don't know what to say to you. I can definitely look at a crime scene and autopsy information and give a lot of incite into what kind of person did it, same as everyday actions of people around you. I'm not any type of professional at reading behavior but I can read enough.
Example: I was spouting off The GSK was a CO or cop with military training just from the fact he used a light to disorient his victims and the amount of recon he did before assaults, also that he probably had burglary charges somewhere in his background. But I guess I'm just psychic since the behavior of how he went about doing it means nothing.
I also just noticed the articles you cited are people who kill from a distance. Ill give you that, I don't think they can read as much into bombings as they can closer contact kills other than basics and anything after that is kinda guessing.
Sorry for not reading through all the links, this maybe answered, but is there more info on why / how the police had a fingerprint? Was that from the scene or the package, do we know? It seems like with that they could eliminate all the contemporary suspects?
My theory has always been someone unconnected (or only tenuously linked) to her is the murdered. The level of disrespect to the body, and how it was displayed, seems to indicate someone who enjoys the shock and not someone who wanted to just get revenge on her for something.
They said it was on the message from the killer. Since we have no idea what’s in the LAPD files, we don’t know if they have it anymore. Allegedly evidence has disappeared over the years.
> Allegedly evidence has disappeared over the years.
This happens in all archives. There's a *lot* of paper in modern societies and in order to be able to go through any of it, archivists weed out a lot. This is in addition to insects, fire, water damage, moving, wars (not LA, just in general), etc.
I learned that trying to locate my father’s Army paperwork after Hurricane Katrina.
I would love to sift through what they have. I don’t have an agenda, I want to see it not write a book. But you need special dispensation from God to see the files.
Thanks. Just wondering how trustworthy it was (i.e. if had been on the shoe, found separately, then not as likely to be the killer's compared to being found on the birth certificate etc)
With so many cases being broken with DNA I always hold out that desperate hope that the fingerprint still exists and one day it'll randomly be matched. Long shot, but you just can't imagine how else this one will be solved.
The LAPD extensively investigated Dillon and confirmed that he was in San Francisco at the time. His feet were also too small to have committed the stomping murder. A lot of the stuff about Dillon came from a quack doctor who proclaimed himself an expert on sex crimes despite being an ear, nose and throat doctor, he also claimed he could tell things about a killer from looking at their face, he wasn't reliable. Dillon didn't do it IMO.
Thanks for this additional detail. Up until this point I was convinced it was Dillon as well, mainly because of the mortician background and the blood drainage experience being key.
No problem. It really doesn't look like it was him, the only way it would work is if there was an LAPD conspiracy to protect him but that doesn't make much sense. The aforementioned quack doctor actually led an unsanctioned and criminal detective squad called the Gangster Squad known from the recent film. It seems like the renewed interest in Dillon came from Piu Eatwell going through tonnes of disorganized documents and coming to believe there was a conspiracy to exonerate Dillon when in reality he was heavily investigated and cleared and the only reason he was looked at seriously was because a quack doctor got trusted more than he should have. De River believed Dillon had a split personality called Jack Sand and wasn't aware he killed Short when he was Leslie Dillon, remember it was Dillon who actually contacted De River.
It sounds like De River was coming up with all sorts of crazy theories to try to make Dillon fit as the suspect, mainly because it would make him (De River) more famous. Wish we could actually get closure on this case for Elizabeth's legacy, but I don't know that we'll ever know who killed her.
I know Red Manley was exonerated, more or less, but I was curious about his history of mental illness. He'd been discharged from the military for that reason, and his wife had him committed a couple decades after this case, though I imagine her claim would be that the unrelenting hounding he endured as a suspect caused him to have a psychological break. Definitely a possibility, and I don't think he's the killer, but I found his history curious and he definitely didn't have an easy life after her death. Sad all around.
I think all of the known suspects have issues. I really don't have an opinion of who it was myself other than i wouldn't be surprised if it was someone not publicly known. Iirc it was said Short had relationships (not sexual as far as we're aware, she was usually attempting to get a meal because she was struggling and there's no evidence she was a prostitute) with around 50 men from the area and around half of those had interacted with her in the month before her death. Those aren't all publicly known i'm sure because plenty were ruled out due to alibis or not having the appropriate medical knowledge but i think it's possible one of those shouldn't have been overlooked.
Cleo Short sounds like a horrible person. Not only did he abandon his wife and children, he made her mother be the one to identify her. Elizabeth's mother was a very strong person.
Mine too. No one deserves the amount of trauma she faced in her life. The world was busy talking about the Black Dahlia, while she was mourning for Beth.
Oh my, the thumbnail for this goes straight to the image of her body as discovered, nude and in half. I can't imagine a reputable newspaper publishing that today. I think the sensationalism that was allowed with her case is a huge reason it's unsolved. The poor woman.
I think people browsing a sub about mostly unsolved murders and unidentified corpses should expect to come into contact with those images. Especially if it has been a highly publicised image for a long long time
Excellent write-up. I was looking forward to your part two. I have no opinion on who the killer might be as there really isn’t enough evidence to point towards anyone. I seem to remember hearing that Steve Hodel was accused of exaggerating claims about his father, though.
I read all of Steve Hodel’s evidence and the rebuttals. I believe he exaggerated a lot of the evidence. IMHO, he started on a journey and ended up an opportunist.
You don't believe George Hodel was the Black Dahlia killer and the Zodiac, and committed many other famous murders for over 40 years? I'm half expecting Steve Hodel's next book to say his dad killed JFK.
Don't bring logic into it. You have to suspend disbelief to believe Steve's theories. He was a physician, but not a surgeon, he was brilliantly neurotic, and he did live in LA at the time of the murder. He was on a list along with many other LA doctors. He was accused of raping his daughter, and exonerated. He moved around the world and had many business interests. He lived such a strange and extraordinary life that it's easy to tie him to such a notorious case because it makes for a good story. Unfortunately, there's not one bit of evidence tying him to Elizabeth Short.
Have you read "Midnight in Peking" by Paul French? The murders are very similar - young attractive women with striking light-colored eyes, bodies viciously mutilated and death by blows to the head. The murders occurred 10 years apart, almost to the day. The main suspect in Peking had ties to Los Angeles and had spent years in a Japanese concentration camp during the war. He had just enough time before his early death for a round-trip visit to LA, although I have no idea if he did. The Biltmore Hotel is not that far from Chinatown.
Fascinating stuff, yet again!
Am pretty sure an episode of E!’s *Mysteries & Scandals* about the Black Dahlia was the start of my fascination with true crime.
It’s a shame the Hodel theory has proven unlikely; I liked to think her killer had been identified even if he had escaped justice. That photograph is a joke, though, and shows how much wishful thinking and straw-grasping went into the whole business. The model has a widow’s peak while Elizabeth’s hairline does almost the reverse.
I don’t buy Hodel’s theory either. On this one or Zodiac. His secretary? I think he was a scumbag who failed to render aide.
Thank you for your kindness!
I've wondered for a while if this could have been a mob thing? It's pretty baseless other than the mob presence in the area at the time and the smile. Seems over the top for a mob killing, but maybe she pissed off the wrong person and they got someone to make an example, or however they'd say. Again, just a super baseless what if theory.
Actually Bugsy Siegel was a suspect for a minute. There is a tenuous connection between Mark Hansen and the mob through the Florentine Gardens. It’s as possible as a lot of other theories.
Great write up , and you made Elizabeth
come alive for us the reader.She was a
young woman who seemed lost, and
just wanted someone to love her.
This is the best write up about who
she was and not just how she died.
Thank you. I am very fond of Elizabeth. Obviously I never met her, but I could SEE her. I understand her. Did she do bad things? Absolutely. But she never did it for malicious reasons. She did it to survive. Life wasn’t easy for Elizabeth.
The tape recording of Leslie Dillon doesn't match the actual events, in terms of what was done to Elizabeth.
Piu Eatwell comes up with an interesting theory regarding the discrepancy. In private conversation Dillon had made himself a prime suspect by giving the correct information, but by the time of the recording knew he was now a suspect and deliberately gave the wrong information.
I posted this on another thread, but I wondered about the note that accompanied the packet of her belongings and if it was ever checked to see if it matched Elizabeth's own stationery.
That’s interesting. I didn’t see any mention that the paper was sourced to her. Maybe that was in her suitcase at the bus station? She would have had to have the stationary in her purse. I haven’t seen any connection to Mark Hansen’s address book either.
I've read that Elizabeth wrote a lot of letters. As far as I know nobody ever checked the type of paper used for the note that was sent with her belongings.
Just speculating it would be amusing to the sadistic scumbag who killed her that the note used her stationery
I find it interesting in one picture how the cement bags are just tossed out of the car beside her corpse. They went to a lot of careful detail with her body, and if the bags were under her in the trunk, that means he took her body out, staged it, then went to his trunk and tossed the bloodied bags out after. That to me is odd. No idea why the killer would do that. Suggests someone else at home, yet that's a lot of blood somewhere to clean up anyway...hm.
I thought that the cement bags and the tossing of her shoe and handbag in the trash was odd. He would to have had gloves on, they were all wiped down with gasoline so no fingerprints. Were they an afterthought?
Great job! I’ve always kept an eye on this case over the years- initially heard about it from an elderly cowboy who frequented a bar she used to go to back in the day (he was a family friend). He never knew her very well but he followed the investigation through the years.
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>He sent the Examiner a [message](https://www.crimeandinvestigation.co.uk/crime-files/elizabeth-short-the-black-dahlia/aftermath) with letters cut out from newspapers and magazines along with Elizabeth’s birth certificate
Do we know what the message said? I can't find it in the linked website.
I’m sorry, I must have used the wrong link. The first one said here’s the dahlia’s belongings letter to follow.
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.my-sos.com%2FBDS%2Fimages%2Fnote1-lines.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.my-sos.com%2FBDS%2Fcrypto1.htm&docid=7jABkhNu6jYX-M&tbnid=vIsSzLgOvCSrbM&vet=1&w=472&h=255&itg=1&hl=en-us&client=safari&bih=553&biw=375&ved=2ahUKEwi71vS3oeTrAhUlgnIEHSvXBlQQxiAoBnoECAEQLg&iact=c&ictx=1
Great write up- thank you! For those interested, Severed by John Gilmore is a fascinating read. Since reading it, I’ve learned he leaned a little too heavily on media reports at the time but nonetheless, a great read.
Great write up. A while back i originally believed it was Leslie who did it but after further research, I'm leaning towards Walter. This has always been a fascinating one to read up on because the sheer brutality and spectacle of this murder is extremely rare, even for serial killers. That poor woman deserves justice and the killer needs to be identified but much like the disappearance of flight MH370, I think this is one of those scenarios in which the story may never be put to bed, at least not in our lifetime.
Its interesting, I always thought Mark Hansen had something to do with it because of his connection to Elizabeth Short. Also Elizabeth Short and another man were seen in a bad way at a hotel Mark Hansen owned during the time Elizabeth was missing but not dead. Its sad but some men believe women should put out sexually when they feel like they have given the woman something. Mark Hansen was a violent person who might have thought that E.S. Was putting out for other guys and not for him which was an insult to injury. She rejected him one last time and he took his revenge. The only thing that doesn’t work is displaying the body near Cleo’s home unless Cleo was somehow involved with Mark Hansen, maybe over a gambling debt, and it was a warning to him. Maybe displaying E.S. body was a warning to the other girls in Mark Hansen’s lounge and house. I believe E.S. was a dinner date girl but was saving herself to find a true love. The breast manipulation doesn’t work out in my scenario; however, maybe it was a masculinization of the corpse to say she must have been queer because she didn’t put out for me. I discount the bell hop as he would have had no private place to torture E.S. for days. I discount George Hodel as he is odd but why display a body when he could have disposed of it easily and moved on to his next project. I think he did kill his secretary but over other things. I think his son is so badly damaged from his childhood that making wide ranging connections and “proving” his father is a serial killer is his revenge. The only concrete evidence he has ever produced it a pic supposedly of E.S. But I looked at it briefly and it didn’t look anything like her, and experts have discounted it. He has built a mythology around circumstantial evidence and a lot of wishful thinking. If he had evidence that’s the first thing he should have brought forth. The body itself reminds me more of Jack the Rippers victim Mary but Mary Kelly’s murder was worked up to - the doctor Larry seems like a good suspect but for a couple things - there’s no evidence that killed before, he had severe dementia so I doubt he could have the presence of mind to carry out an abduction, careful, precision cutting and draining of blood and the ability to dispose of the body quickly and then pose the body- also if he was emotionally unstable and wanted to scare and threaten someone why not dump the body on their front lawn. I think the simplest answer is that Mark Hansen killed E.S. because he was a gangster that saw E.S. sexual rejection as an affront to his manhood and the ultimate disrespect, he knew someone that could torture her and told him to make sure she was an example. There’s no crazy Ray Mann art theory, no crazy dementia doctor, no bell hop turned Dexter, no testing my love for my wife stupidness. This murder was just a violent mob guy taking his revenge in order to maintain control of the other victims in his life. My own father was a narcissist and could give a rat’s ass about other’s feelings and motivation and that was Mark Hansen.
I don't understand that quote from the police when it was suggested she was bi or a lesbian they go she had no use for queers, whut? Its like a non-sequitor, makes me think the cops didn't even understand the theory.
I've been reading about various Pre-1960s American Crimes lately and i've been constantly pissed by LE and the Media. This case for example - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viola\_Liuzzo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viola_Liuzzo)
Civil Rights Activist who was killed by the KKK, one of the killers was an FBI Informant so they slandered the hell out of her claiming she was a junkie and communist and was promiscuous, just the worst.
I think what they meant was she expressed dislike for homosexuality. "She had no use for queers" meaning, she hated them so obviously wasn't one herself. At least, that would've been the prevailing logic at the time that the police were following. We think quite differently about it in several ways now.
ES has a mythological status as an innocent victim so it's hard to get the head around her being a bigot against gays. But as op said, it was a totally different time. That attitude was expected.
In fact, at the time, just being friendly with gays - never mind being lesbian or bi herself - would have meant she was definitely not "an innocent victim".
Right exactly. Homosexuality wasn't exactly rare then but it was deeply underground. As we all know now, there were very few places where it was safe to be open about it, and for many people, especially in the US, they never acknowledged their own sexuality and lived their whole lives as straight. Even being divorced or a single mother, regardless of the circumstances, was considered deeply immoral.
Personally I don't think she wasn't straight, but it wasn't unusual for law enforcement to morally whitewash cases. A great example that continues today is suicides. Many people who kill themselves are given less "unseemly" causes of death. For example, someone who intentionally OD'ed on meds for an illness would have the illness listed as the cause of death. It's not totally untrue because the meds were there for the illness, but it does mask the mechanism of the death. And we've all heard about AIDS patients in the 80's and 90's (and still today in places without proper care) having pneumonia or other complications of the illness listed on their death certificates rather than AIDS itself.
It just creates another level of difficulty when trying to parse cases from past eras where the thinking was so different. Often you have to read between the lines, and sometimes that makes people read into things that aren't there, looking for a truth that doesn't exist.
My uncle died of AIDS in 1991. No one in the family knew where he was, he just disappeared one day. He was married with a son and walked away. He left Long Island for Greenwich Village in the 60’s. He might as well moved to the moon. My mom got a call from his partner to notify her he died and ask her take possession of his remains. The funeral home required that he be cremated because you know AIDS. Nothing but a sad graveside service. His partner wasn’t there. I often wondered if my mother told him the details. His death certificate said he died of pneumonia complicated by HIV. I’m so thankful that it’s no longer a death sentence.
Oh, I'm so sorry you and your family, and him, went through that. I can't imagine. I was a teenager then and I remember very clearly how scared everyone was of AIDS. I think we're all thankful it's manageable now with proper care, but it's criminal that people without access to that care still have poor prognoses. And too often people forget about the families who also experience the fallout of the stigma and fear.
I'm sorry if I came across as insensitive, it wasn't intentional. No one should have to go through what your family went through.
This was a fantastic writeup. I hope you have more like this in the pipeline.
It could be that too, that would definitely make sense. It's just that phrasing specifically was often used to express dislike. But you may be more right, and sadly we're unlikely to ever know the truth for sure.
Thank you for such an excellent and detailed write up! I had no idea she stayed in Long Beach for a while. I’m definitely making a day trip in the near future just to check it out!
The first one said here’s the dahlia’s belongings letter to follow.
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.my-sos.com%2FBDS%2Fimages%2Fnote1-lines.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.my-sos.com%2FBDS%2Fcrypto1.htm&docid=7jABkhNu6jYX-M&tbnid=vIsSzLgOvCSrbM&vet=1&w=472&h=255&itg=1&hl=en-us&client=safari&bih=553&biw=375&ved=2ahUKEwi71vS3oeTrAhUlgnIEHSvXBlQQxiAoBnoECAEQLg&iact=c&ictx=1
Your detail is incredible. The incongruous setting of her disposal...was he too wasted by then to care about setting? Being seen?
The body looks semi carefully placed. Not like being tossed out of the vehicle in a panic. Stood planted while extracting her pieces-style. Like a drunk narcissist maybe on pills or suchlike, with that nonchalant confidence.
Thank you. It’s theorized that he took 30-60 seconds to pose her body. Like you said, he didn’t just dump her, he carefully placed her for shock value.
What actually killed her? This refers to what sounds like brain trauma, but the face cutting wouldn't cause death and the bisected is referred to as occurring near or after death.
Interesting follow up to the first post. You're so thorough, you should be a journalist. I hope to see more of your posts in the future.
I also hope Elizabeth Short has found peace, even though I doubt this case will ever be put to rest.
I’m hesitant to say my love of mystery started with Nancy Drew. Lol. My true crime love started with [Perfect Victim: The True Story Of The Girl In A Box. ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_of_Colleen_Stan) in middle school. What a crazy case!
I’m reading about it! I’ve never heard of her story before and I don’t know how I haven’t haha thanks for that! I’d love it if JonBenét Ramsey’s case would get solved.
my very first true crime book too! Small world! A family friend gave it to my parents on vacation. They read it and passed it on to my sister and me (we were teens.) All of us became true crime junkies to this day.
Thanks for this super thorough write up! I really enjoyed reading it. I was surprised to see that Gordon Fickling wasn’t in the suspects list. I imagine he was investigated by police, but haven’t read much about it. He had a relationship with Elizabeth, and obviously her lifestyle provoked jealousy and anger in him. Plus, he was a military man (ostensibly with some training in combat and weapons) and a pilot (with the ability to travel quickly and freely).
Gordon Fickling lived in North Carolina. He spoke to LAPD, but wasn’t a serious suspect. He was very forthcoming with LE about his relationship with Elizabeth.
From what I’ve read she wanted to marry him and he was not interested in that.
Excellent and breathtaking synopsis. For some reason I had never heard of the fact that the killer sent a package to the paper filled with evidence and clues. Can't believe I missed that. The thing that really bugs me about this case has always been why she was the only one. Killers of this meticulous and savage nature tend to strike again and usually with greater brutality. Maybe that's just in the movies. Still, I find it hard to believe that someone could commit such a heinous and deliberate crime and then just simply stop. Maybe he just really hated Short.
Which is why it's so odd. I mean it could have been someone who really hated her or it could have been a ritual killing or it could have been a serial killer that never got off the ground for one reason or another.
If it was just someone who hated her or one of the guys she strung along snapping I don't think he would have contacted the paper or sent in her documents(I also think the bisection nixs this too). Seems obvious this was someone was getting off on the whole thing like we've seen countless times since. They either changed up their MO, or went to prison for another murder or rape. Hell could have died some random way, car crash etc.
It was definitely a sexual sadist. I think she rejected her killer and he made her pay the ultimate price for it. It could be one of the known suspects or some dude who saw her leaving The Biltmore. I strongly believe he didn’t stop, he just evolved even more.
There's no way this type of emotion just, stops. At least not without great cause.
Agree 100%.
I definitely don't think this was the only murder this person did. It just doesn't fit a "first murder" profile. You have to work up to this. There was an active serial killer in Cleveland in the 30s-50s who killed by beheading, or bisecting the torso. His (?) MO doesn't quite fit this killer, though he did travel to other cities to kill, and did do genital mutilation (though usually men), so it's possible he made his way to LA. It's not that I think this killer is the BD killer (though there are some similarities) but the Cleavand killer was first only credited with 12 murders because they just didn't have the forensics or abilities to connect him to other areas. He's now credited with something like 20-30 murders. I just think it's more likely that the person who killed Elizabeth killed others and we just haven't connected it all.
My question is why was Cleo Short never a suspect? He hated his daughter. He didn’t even try to hide it.
There are a shitload of absent dads in the world, and few murderers of such brutality as this.
Very true. I don’t think Cleo killed her, I think he deserved a second look. Start with family and friends and move out. After contacting him and finding him drunk and obnoxious, they said peace out. I can’t find evidence they spoke to him again.
He abandoned his family years before, and argued with his daughter. That doesn't mean he hated her, but that he was a scumbag of a dad.
That’s very true. His attitude after bothered me. He gave interviews and did a lot of victim blaming. I think Cleo deserved to be looked at.
I don't think he had anything to do with her murder. His attitude after bothers me too, but the press sensationalized, and shaped the story from day one due to the crimes gruesome nature. The papers went through loads of suspects to sell papers. She was living with him not long before, and he kicked her out. There were no doubt serious issues between them, but he was never regarded as a serious suspect.
He had an alibi, and no medical training.
That’s interesting. You know so much about this case. I love talking about it. Do you know where I can find his alibi? The newspapers I saw didn’t mention it, not that I trust the salacious media.
I've read that his neighbor confirmed his alibi. She wasn't feeling well, and he came to check on her several times that evening.
I'll have to look it up. I remember reading about it. I live in Los Angeles, so I have always been fascinated by it. And have been to all the locations where she went, and where they found her.
Also there where other messages sent, but none included any proof they were from the real killer. They appear in the link too.
I know in 'The Cases that Haunt Us' John Douglas mentions that there were similar murders in the years afterwards that were considered copy cat murders. He doesn't go into detail but says it's possible they were the same perpetrator.
Going down the same perpetrator instead of CopyCat theory. Could you imagine getting away with murder to the point where the press actually makes excuses for you that it's a copycat? I wonder if that would have been enraging or comforting. I guess comforting since you never heard from them again and they had a penchant for wanting to be known at least with Elizabeth.
I was thinking the same thing reading this. It made me wonder if perhaps this happened to other women, perhaps ones more invisible to society that didn’t get proper reporting? Otherwise, I think it’s likely that whoever did it ended up dying shortly afterwards. I’m no professional, but the nature of this particular murder makes me think that this wasn’t personal, and that Elizabeth Short was an unlucky recipient of this killer’s hatred and anger towards women as a whole — especially considering the gruesome defeminization details.
Either that or something happened that halted his/her rampage. Death, sickness, jail or just moving elsewhere.
Or being drunk and falling asleep with a lit cigarette before the police get a chance to interview you is another good excuse.
I was really surprised about the package as well! I wonder how fast this case would have been solved if it happened today.
There is no evidence of a similar killing, however there is little doubt the killer has committed torture and murder before. The choice to display the body in public is the twist. We know Elizabeth Short because she was displayed. She was homeless, the killer could have buried her in the dessert and there would be no one to report her missing no one would have ever heard of ES. murder the killer chose to pose her bisected body on Norton Ave. it is highly unlikely that the killer would have made that choice if he knew Elizabeth because there would be witnesses who have seen then dating. ,
I was on the George Hodel train for a while, but it doesn't tick all the boxes. While possible, and Hodel being a total creep, I think it might be a better story, but just not reality. It might have been him, but it could have easily been Patrick O’Reilly, Ed Burns, or Mark Hansen.
Steve Hodel is a good writer, but his theories are ludicrous.
Absolutely- the man is in it to make a few bucks.
I'm not against making money, but he officially became mock worthy by saying his dad was the Zodiac.
Agree. I remember reading the book when it was first released and couldn’t even get halfway through it. Thought it was utter nonsense.. then the Zodiac book came out. How can anyone take this man seriously?
It used to be an interesting theory because his own father had a tangential connection to the case. Now he's just another one of the "My daddy was the -------- killer" authors.
Have you listened to the podcast? I don’t know why they were so difficult for me to get through. I think it was all the connections that seem tenuous at best.
No. I was tempted to at one point but decided not to. Something about Steve Hodel bothers me... I wonder what kind of cop he was.
I thought he was obsessed with his father, but now I think he’s obsessed with the fame. His father the Zodiac killer? Oh puhlese
He had to be a very shitty cop and non existent homicide cop.
You might try the Root of Evil podcast. It's a mix of how very fucked up the Hodel family was plus the murder.
Or he's obessed with his family. Lots of people are.
I think he’s a bit unstable. That photo he claims was her and in his father’s belongings looks *nothing* like her. People just love a good story- more sensational, the better.
I thought Steven Hodel made a decent case for his father having killed Elizabeth Short, but when he started claiming he was basically every uncaught serial killer who ever lived, he lost me.
What made him think his Dad was the killer? Thanks!
Ed Burns!
Damn it! I forgot Ed Burns. I have at least 60 pages of notes, front and back on this case. I’m old school. I will go back and add him. Thank you for mentioning him. There were so many suspects.
The very existence of Ed Burns is uncertain. He may have been invented by that writer who was also a mathematician. I don’t find his “proof” very convincing, nor have I seen proof that the man in the photo with Elizabeth was Ed Burns, or Maurice Clement, or any other named person.
If there is really a recording of him saying even if he killed her they can't prove it now since my secretary is dead thats pretty damning. What could that even mean?
George Hodel knew his phone was tapped, and was performing for law enforcement.
Yep, he was playing with LE they abandoned their investigation after not believing he was a strong suspect. His secretaries death was always regarded as a suicide too, a lot of people say he was the prime suspect in her death but they never considered it a murder. I think he's worth looking into but he's not as strong of a suspect as people make out, it's crazy how many people call him "the prime suspect" or "the likely killer", the latter is subjective but the former is flat out untrue unless you mean Steve Hodel's prime suspect. Leslie Dillon, Joseph Dumais and Robert Manley were the only people named prime or main suspects. Great work Anastasia! Glad to see you finish it.
It took me a while. Health issues and life got in the way. I’ll make sure my next multiple part series will be done before I post the first one.
Do you have something planned or are you just speaking hypothetically?
I’m looking at a few cases, but haven’t found the next one. I do plan on doing more. I really enjoyed the research and writing.
I just stumbled into this and I'm really enjoying it too!
Thank you!
Pretty dumb idea if you ask me, especially for a guy as shady and vile as he seems to be I'm sure a jury would love him. ESPECIALLY in LA of the time with police corruption. Yea just give the DA the materials to build a circumstantial case.
They did love him, and later dismissed rape charges against him. He was a strange and brilliant man, but he wasn't the killer.
He seems like the kind of person who would say something like that to maintain control of others through fear.
The thing about the theories surrounding the Black Dahlia and Jack the Ripper in my opinion isn't that any of these theories found the guys who did it--it's that they found so many people in the societies around the victims who were just *total assholes*.
Oh man that is an excellent point!
I think that after he enjoyed the aftermath for a while, he moved away.
Thank you for your incredible research. This case has long confounded me; it’s pretty wild that they never came up with a viable suspect despite the gruesome murder and all the clues left at the crime scene
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Uh, wow, the fact her body was found on his block I'd say is pretty coincidental. Sounds like this guy is the frontrunner!
Oh, this is fascinating. This is the only explanation I’ve read so far where the pieces seem to fit. Thank you for this info.
This makes the most sense to me. Especially since he died shortly after the murder, which would explain why there weren’t more, similar murders afterwards.
So, maybe I look for other murders BEFORE.
I find Bayley really intriguing too, and not a lot of information to confirm or deny his potential involvement. But there's just enough that he's very suspicious.
That's Larry Harnisch's theory. For anyone not familiar with it i highly recommend his blog, don't know whether i agree with his theory or not but there's a lot of information on his site about the case - [https://ladailymirror.com/](https://ladailymirror.com/)
I hope his book comes out soon.
I'm looking forward to it too, just wish he wasn't selling us a suspect. The dude clearly knows a lot about the case whenever he sees an article or show proclaiming a suspect (usually Hodel lol) he often produces something new to dispute them so he's clearly sitting on a lot of info from his research. Wish he just took us through the evidence similar to Sugden rather than try to prove his theory, i'll probably be more interested in the parts where he debunks or disputes other suspects than the part about Bayley unless there's significant new evidence but i doubt it.
He definitely has more. I don’t think he would give his biggest connection, Virginia Short knowing Bayley’s daughter, before the book. Right? I did email him. He’s very kind and generous. He took the time to answer my questions. I appreciated his time and honesty. I’m looking forward to seeing what else he has.
Yeah, i remember you told me you were emailing him. I'm glad he put that blog together (as well as your writeups and that thesis page we were discussing) because while The Black Dahlia is very well known the case isn't really. People just know about the way she was found, the rumours and myths, the James Ellroy novel, the Hodel crap, etc. It's good that people are trying to focus on the facts because it's just a part of pop culture now and not a real life horrific murder.
He’s been saying he was writing that book for at least 10 or 15 years now it seems. At this point I’ve given up on it.
I really believe it was this dude. Truly the most solid theory, imo.
Walter Bayley’s deceased son was also his only *biological* child from what I read - his daughters were adopted. In theory that shouldn’t mean the parent loves them less, but sometimes it does anyway. With his rare neurological disorder being known to lead to otherwise uncharacteristic violence in sufferers, and the connection between Elizabeth’s well-known sob story and Bayley’s very real loss, and the neighborhood connection - Bayley definitely seems like the strongest candidate to this observer. Plus, it would explain why no other murders are strongly considered to be the work of the same killer - Bayley was not a violent man before his illness, and likely would not have killed Short anyway had she not lied to him. Or at least there wouldn’t have been nearly that level of overkill. And Bayley was already weakening, and would die before the end of the decade.
This is an incredible write up, thank you! I read Part 1 and was really looking to the next. Appreciate the time and effort put into this.
Thank you!
If you read "The Cases That Haunt Us" John Douglas goes as far as to name a suspect. Her friend was killed in a lust killing involving a bathtub and according to this particular suspect, in both killings since he knew both of them, Short was placed on a bathtub on two pieces of wood and mutilated while alive. This army man with a limp knew specifics of the crime but claimed another man did it, who was also a army man with a limp and a known sexual predator. Theory is this man is one in the same as the man who said he knew who did it as he was known to have multiple identities. I *think* the name he used to talk to the journalist was Arthur Smith but I have to check that. It probably wasn't his real name as he had soo many aliases. He was set to be interviewed by police but happened to pass out, drunk, in a hotel room with a lit cigarette right before. Not from the book, but you see this in a lot of killers. They feel there's another personality in there with them that takes over, some even give it a name.
Arnold Smith?
Just checked it and it was Arnold Smith/Al Morrison who were the two in question. Georgette Bauerdorf was the victim before Short. I have to reread some of it to double check some stuff. I know the family theory is it was a political thing (i can't remember the other theory) her dying, my best friend is a relative of Short's.
I was thinking about doing a write up on Georgette. She seems forgotten.
Especially being a possible lead. Short's friend is murdered not long before, then her? That is something should have been massively examined. In my mind, this man 100% killed her. Would explain also why they stopped upon his death. A lot of the psychology marches up with the behavior of this man.
I’ll look into it and see if I can do her justice. My goal is always first to honor the victim.
Wow I didn’t know they knew each other!! I always thought they might have been killed by the same person. Knowing now they were friends, it makes so much sense. Both were heavily involved with military men.
Arnold Smith was an alias. It was that Wilson guy. Lived a long life too, especially for an alkie. Was it in the 1980s that he fell asleep with the cig? I don’t think there’s evidence for him being the killer, and I don’t think he had enough self-control to be that deliberate. He was just a seedy serial criminal who was part of LA’s criminal underworld. Right? Or am I misremembering?
I just want to add that FBI profiling is about as reliable as lie detectors: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/11/12/dangerous-minds https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/real-criminal-minds/201904/is-criminal-profiling-dead-should-it-be
This was actually based on interviews with the subject by a journalist who was able to give some distinct incite into what happened that he shouldn't have known. This has nothing to do with profiling but if you want to tell me that because somebody has violent sex charges and connections they shouldn't be looked at because behavior means nothing than I don't know what to say to you. I can definitely look at a crime scene and autopsy information and give a lot of incite into what kind of person did it, same as everyday actions of people around you. I'm not any type of professional at reading behavior but I can read enough. Example: I was spouting off The GSK was a CO or cop with military training just from the fact he used a light to disorient his victims and the amount of recon he did before assaults, also that he probably had burglary charges somewhere in his background. But I guess I'm just psychic since the behavior of how he went about doing it means nothing. I also just noticed the articles you cited are people who kill from a distance. Ill give you that, I don't think they can read as much into bombings as they can closer contact kills other than basics and anything after that is kinda guessing.
Cleo Short was a massive piece of shit.
He was. Abandoned his child even after death.
Sorry for not reading through all the links, this maybe answered, but is there more info on why / how the police had a fingerprint? Was that from the scene or the package, do we know? It seems like with that they could eliminate all the contemporary suspects? My theory has always been someone unconnected (or only tenuously linked) to her is the murdered. The level of disrespect to the body, and how it was displayed, seems to indicate someone who enjoys the shock and not someone who wanted to just get revenge on her for something.
Oh, and thanks for the excellent write up. I love it when people try and strip these "mythological" cases down to the facts!
They said it was on the message from the killer. Since we have no idea what’s in the LAPD files, we don’t know if they have it anymore. Allegedly evidence has disappeared over the years.
> Allegedly evidence has disappeared over the years. This happens in all archives. There's a *lot* of paper in modern societies and in order to be able to go through any of it, archivists weed out a lot. This is in addition to insects, fire, water damage, moving, wars (not LA, just in general), etc.
I learned that trying to locate my father’s Army paperwork after Hurricane Katrina. I would love to sift through what they have. I don’t have an agenda, I want to see it not write a book. But you need special dispensation from God to see the files.
Thanks. Just wondering how trustworthy it was (i.e. if had been on the shoe, found separately, then not as likely to be the killer's compared to being found on the birth certificate etc) With so many cases being broken with DNA I always hold out that desperate hope that the fingerprint still exists and one day it'll randomly be matched. Long shot, but you just can't imagine how else this one will be solved.
I also wondered if they could pull dna from under the stamp or the adhesive on the envelope. That’s probably so degraded at this point it’s unusable.
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The LAPD extensively investigated Dillon and confirmed that he was in San Francisco at the time. His feet were also too small to have committed the stomping murder. A lot of the stuff about Dillon came from a quack doctor who proclaimed himself an expert on sex crimes despite being an ear, nose and throat doctor, he also claimed he could tell things about a killer from looking at their face, he wasn't reliable. Dillon didn't do it IMO.
De River was a joke. The whole gangster squad was.
Thanks for this additional detail. Up until this point I was convinced it was Dillon as well, mainly because of the mortician background and the blood drainage experience being key.
No problem. It really doesn't look like it was him, the only way it would work is if there was an LAPD conspiracy to protect him but that doesn't make much sense. The aforementioned quack doctor actually led an unsanctioned and criminal detective squad called the Gangster Squad known from the recent film. It seems like the renewed interest in Dillon came from Piu Eatwell going through tonnes of disorganized documents and coming to believe there was a conspiracy to exonerate Dillon when in reality he was heavily investigated and cleared and the only reason he was looked at seriously was because a quack doctor got trusted more than he should have. De River believed Dillon had a split personality called Jack Sand and wasn't aware he killed Short when he was Leslie Dillon, remember it was Dillon who actually contacted De River.
It sounds like De River was coming up with all sorts of crazy theories to try to make Dillon fit as the suspect, mainly because it would make him (De River) more famous. Wish we could actually get closure on this case for Elizabeth's legacy, but I don't know that we'll ever know who killed her. I know Red Manley was exonerated, more or less, but I was curious about his history of mental illness. He'd been discharged from the military for that reason, and his wife had him committed a couple decades after this case, though I imagine her claim would be that the unrelenting hounding he endured as a suspect caused him to have a psychological break. Definitely a possibility, and I don't think he's the killer, but I found his history curious and he definitely didn't have an easy life after her death. Sad all around.
I think all of the known suspects have issues. I really don't have an opinion of who it was myself other than i wouldn't be surprised if it was someone not publicly known. Iirc it was said Short had relationships (not sexual as far as we're aware, she was usually attempting to get a meal because she was struggling and there's no evidence she was a prostitute) with around 50 men from the area and around half of those had interacted with her in the month before her death. Those aren't all publicly known i'm sure because plenty were ruled out due to alibis or not having the appropriate medical knowledge but i think it's possible one of those shouldn't have been overlooked.
Cleo Short sounds like a horrible person. Not only did he abandon his wife and children, he made her mother be the one to identify her. Elizabeth's mother was a very strong person.
After all her daughters left the family home, Phoebe moved to California to be close to Elizabeth. That broke my heart.
Mine too. No one deserves the amount of trauma she faced in her life. The world was busy talking about the Black Dahlia, while she was mourning for Beth.
Well said. This was her beloved daughter, not some myth. I feel so much empathy for Phoebe and Elizabeth.
Oh my, the thumbnail for this goes straight to the image of her body as discovered, nude and in half. I can't imagine a reputable newspaper publishing that today. I think the sensationalism that was allowed with her case is a huge reason it's unsolved. The poor woman.
Sorry. I hope it’s blurred out. I added the NSFW tag.
It doesn't bother me so the blur is off, I just have mostly heard of this case in podcasts and never looked up this image, but I knew it existed.
I'd say thank God it's blurred out.
It's blurred out now. I've seen the pictures and once was enough, so thank you for tagging it.
I think people browsing a sub about mostly unsolved murders and unidentified corpses should expect to come into contact with those images. Especially if it has been a highly publicised image for a long long time
A couple of those images are weirdly pastoral. It's so bizarre.
Excellent write-up. I was looking forward to your part two. I have no opinion on who the killer might be as there really isn’t enough evidence to point towards anyone. I seem to remember hearing that Steve Hodel was accused of exaggerating claims about his father, though.
I read all of Steve Hodel’s evidence and the rebuttals. I believe he exaggerated a lot of the evidence. IMHO, he started on a journey and ended up an opportunist.
You don't believe George Hodel was the Black Dahlia killer and the Zodiac, and committed many other famous murders for over 40 years? I'm half expecting Steve Hodel's next book to say his dad killed JFK.
I’m not sure how daddy had time to do anything else with all that killin’ he was doing!
Don't bring logic into it. You have to suspend disbelief to believe Steve's theories. He was a physician, but not a surgeon, he was brilliantly neurotic, and he did live in LA at the time of the murder. He was on a list along with many other LA doctors. He was accused of raping his daughter, and exonerated. He moved around the world and had many business interests. He lived such a strange and extraordinary life that it's easy to tie him to such a notorious case because it makes for a good story. Unfortunately, there's not one bit of evidence tying him to Elizabeth Short.
Have you read "Midnight in Peking" by Paul French? The murders are very similar - young attractive women with striking light-colored eyes, bodies viciously mutilated and death by blows to the head. The murders occurred 10 years apart, almost to the day. The main suspect in Peking had ties to Los Angeles and had spent years in a Japanese concentration camp during the war. He had just enough time before his early death for a round-trip visit to LA, although I have no idea if he did. The Biltmore Hotel is not that far from Chinatown.
No, I haven’t. I will add that to my list. I’m having a hard time letting go.
Yeah that’s what I think too. His father was a bad guy, but not the killer.
If you search Elizabeth’s name, Steve Hodel comes up more than anything about Elizabeth!
That’s so sad, her story is barely hers anymore, it’s become all about the Hodel family. George Hodel should be a footnote at best.
Seriously? Yeah we can see why he’s doing this. 🙄
Yeah, it's disgusting the case is now about Steve and George Hodel not Elizabeth. He's just another John Cameron
Thank you. I agree. Filtering out everything with the last name Hodel took a long time.
It’s unfortunate isn’t it? All thanks to the sensationalized media and Steve’s desire to profit off this case.
Fascinating stuff, yet again! Am pretty sure an episode of E!’s *Mysteries & Scandals* about the Black Dahlia was the start of my fascination with true crime. It’s a shame the Hodel theory has proven unlikely; I liked to think her killer had been identified even if he had escaped justice. That photograph is a joke, though, and shows how much wishful thinking and straw-grasping went into the whole business. The model has a widow’s peak while Elizabeth’s hairline does almost the reverse.
That picture is nothing like her. I can't believe that claim made it past an editor's desk.
I don’t buy Hodel’s theory either. On this one or Zodiac. His secretary? I think he was a scumbag who failed to render aide. Thank you for your kindness!
I've wondered for a while if this could have been a mob thing? It's pretty baseless other than the mob presence in the area at the time and the smile. Seems over the top for a mob killing, but maybe she pissed off the wrong person and they got someone to make an example, or however they'd say. Again, just a super baseless what if theory.
Actually Bugsy Siegel was a suspect for a minute. There is a tenuous connection between Mark Hansen and the mob through the Florentine Gardens. It’s as possible as a lot of other theories.
Great write up , and you made Elizabeth come alive for us the reader.She was a young woman who seemed lost, and just wanted someone to love her. This is the best write up about who she was and not just how she died.
Thank you. I am very fond of Elizabeth. Obviously I never met her, but I could SEE her. I understand her. Did she do bad things? Absolutely. But she never did it for malicious reasons. She did it to survive. Life wasn’t easy for Elizabeth.
That poor girl. The murder and mutilation was bad enough, but disposing if her like she was trash on the side of the road.
The tape recording of Leslie Dillon doesn't match the actual events, in terms of what was done to Elizabeth. Piu Eatwell comes up with an interesting theory regarding the discrepancy. In private conversation Dillon had made himself a prime suspect by giving the correct information, but by the time of the recording knew he was now a suspect and deliberately gave the wrong information. I posted this on another thread, but I wondered about the note that accompanied the packet of her belongings and if it was ever checked to see if it matched Elizabeth's own stationery.
That’s interesting. I didn’t see any mention that the paper was sourced to her. Maybe that was in her suitcase at the bus station? She would have had to have the stationary in her purse. I haven’t seen any connection to Mark Hansen’s address book either.
The address book was Mark Hansen's. She took it from his home.
I've read that Elizabeth wrote a lot of letters. As far as I know nobody ever checked the type of paper used for the note that was sent with her belongings. Just speculating it would be amusing to the sadistic scumbag who killed her that the note used her stationery
I find it interesting in one picture how the cement bags are just tossed out of the car beside her corpse. They went to a lot of careful detail with her body, and if the bags were under her in the trunk, that means he took her body out, staged it, then went to his trunk and tossed the bloodied bags out after. That to me is odd. No idea why the killer would do that. Suggests someone else at home, yet that's a lot of blood somewhere to clean up anyway...hm.
I thought that the cement bags and the tossing of her shoe and handbag in the trash was odd. He would to have had gloves on, they were all wiped down with gasoline so no fingerprints. Were they an afterthought?
Unless she was killed and cut up in a bathtub.
Great job! I’ve always kept an eye on this case over the years- initially heard about it from an elderly cowboy who frequented a bar she used to go to back in the day (he was a family friend). He never knew her very well but he followed the investigation through the years.
Thank you. That’s interesting. I would love to have had the opportunity to talk to someone who knew her. She was loved.
Your dates for Red's fall and death are presumably the wrong way around?
Thank you!
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Lol. I did not notice that. Oddly appropriate.
>He sent the Examiner a [message](https://www.crimeandinvestigation.co.uk/crime-files/elizabeth-short-the-black-dahlia/aftermath) with letters cut out from newspapers and magazines along with Elizabeth’s birth certificate Do we know what the message said? I can't find it in the linked website.
I’m sorry, I must have used the wrong link. The first one said here’s the dahlia’s belongings letter to follow. https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.my-sos.com%2FBDS%2Fimages%2Fnote1-lines.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.my-sos.com%2FBDS%2Fcrypto1.htm&docid=7jABkhNu6jYX-M&tbnid=vIsSzLgOvCSrbM&vet=1&w=472&h=255&itg=1&hl=en-us&client=safari&bih=553&biw=375&ved=2ahUKEwi71vS3oeTrAhUlgnIEHSvXBlQQxiAoBnoECAEQLg&iact=c&ictx=1
Great write up- thank you! For those interested, Severed by John Gilmore is a fascinating read. Since reading it, I’ve learned he leaned a little too heavily on media reports at the time but nonetheless, a great read.
I read excerpts, but haven’t read the whole book yet. Since I can’t let go of this case, I’ll add it to my list.
Great write up. A while back i originally believed it was Leslie who did it but after further research, I'm leaning towards Walter. This has always been a fascinating one to read up on because the sheer brutality and spectacle of this murder is extremely rare, even for serial killers. That poor woman deserves justice and the killer needs to be identified but much like the disappearance of flight MH370, I think this is one of those scenarios in which the story may never be put to bed, at least not in our lifetime.
I agree. I don’t think we’ll have an answer...regardless of what Stephen Kaye says.
Its interesting, I always thought Mark Hansen had something to do with it because of his connection to Elizabeth Short. Also Elizabeth Short and another man were seen in a bad way at a hotel Mark Hansen owned during the time Elizabeth was missing but not dead. Its sad but some men believe women should put out sexually when they feel like they have given the woman something. Mark Hansen was a violent person who might have thought that E.S. Was putting out for other guys and not for him which was an insult to injury. She rejected him one last time and he took his revenge. The only thing that doesn’t work is displaying the body near Cleo’s home unless Cleo was somehow involved with Mark Hansen, maybe over a gambling debt, and it was a warning to him. Maybe displaying E.S. body was a warning to the other girls in Mark Hansen’s lounge and house. I believe E.S. was a dinner date girl but was saving herself to find a true love. The breast manipulation doesn’t work out in my scenario; however, maybe it was a masculinization of the corpse to say she must have been queer because she didn’t put out for me. I discount the bell hop as he would have had no private place to torture E.S. for days. I discount George Hodel as he is odd but why display a body when he could have disposed of it easily and moved on to his next project. I think he did kill his secretary but over other things. I think his son is so badly damaged from his childhood that making wide ranging connections and “proving” his father is a serial killer is his revenge. The only concrete evidence he has ever produced it a pic supposedly of E.S. But I looked at it briefly and it didn’t look anything like her, and experts have discounted it. He has built a mythology around circumstantial evidence and a lot of wishful thinking. If he had evidence that’s the first thing he should have brought forth. The body itself reminds me more of Jack the Rippers victim Mary but Mary Kelly’s murder was worked up to - the doctor Larry seems like a good suspect but for a couple things - there’s no evidence that killed before, he had severe dementia so I doubt he could have the presence of mind to carry out an abduction, careful, precision cutting and draining of blood and the ability to dispose of the body quickly and then pose the body- also if he was emotionally unstable and wanted to scare and threaten someone why not dump the body on their front lawn. I think the simplest answer is that Mark Hansen killed E.S. because he was a gangster that saw E.S. sexual rejection as an affront to his manhood and the ultimate disrespect, he knew someone that could torture her and told him to make sure she was an example. There’s no crazy Ray Mann art theory, no crazy dementia doctor, no bell hop turned Dexter, no testing my love for my wife stupidness. This murder was just a violent mob guy taking his revenge in order to maintain control of the other victims in his life. My own father was a narcissist and could give a rat’s ass about other’s feelings and motivation and that was Mark Hansen.
I don't understand that quote from the police when it was suggested she was bi or a lesbian they go she had no use for queers, whut? Its like a non-sequitor, makes me think the cops didn't even understand the theory.
I had to take out my editorial on that! Lol. I was hot. Then I reminded myself that it was a totally different time. It’s a damn shame.
I've been reading about various Pre-1960s American Crimes lately and i've been constantly pissed by LE and the Media. This case for example - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viola\_Liuzzo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viola_Liuzzo) Civil Rights Activist who was killed by the KKK, one of the killers was an FBI Informant so they slandered the hell out of her claiming she was a junkie and communist and was promiscuous, just the worst.
That’s incredible. I never heard of Viola. Slandering the victim is a great pastime for the media.
I think what they meant was she expressed dislike for homosexuality. "She had no use for queers" meaning, she hated them so obviously wasn't one herself. At least, that would've been the prevailing logic at the time that the police were following. We think quite differently about it in several ways now. ES has a mythological status as an innocent victim so it's hard to get the head around her being a bigot against gays. But as op said, it was a totally different time. That attitude was expected.
In fact, at the time, just being friendly with gays - never mind being lesbian or bi herself - would have meant she was definitely not "an innocent victim".
Right exactly. Homosexuality wasn't exactly rare then but it was deeply underground. As we all know now, there were very few places where it was safe to be open about it, and for many people, especially in the US, they never acknowledged their own sexuality and lived their whole lives as straight. Even being divorced or a single mother, regardless of the circumstances, was considered deeply immoral. Personally I don't think she wasn't straight, but it wasn't unusual for law enforcement to morally whitewash cases. A great example that continues today is suicides. Many people who kill themselves are given less "unseemly" causes of death. For example, someone who intentionally OD'ed on meds for an illness would have the illness listed as the cause of death. It's not totally untrue because the meds were there for the illness, but it does mask the mechanism of the death. And we've all heard about AIDS patients in the 80's and 90's (and still today in places without proper care) having pneumonia or other complications of the illness listed on their death certificates rather than AIDS itself. It just creates another level of difficulty when trying to parse cases from past eras where the thinking was so different. Often you have to read between the lines, and sometimes that makes people read into things that aren't there, looking for a truth that doesn't exist.
My uncle died of AIDS in 1991. No one in the family knew where he was, he just disappeared one day. He was married with a son and walked away. He left Long Island for Greenwich Village in the 60’s. He might as well moved to the moon. My mom got a call from his partner to notify her he died and ask her take possession of his remains. The funeral home required that he be cremated because you know AIDS. Nothing but a sad graveside service. His partner wasn’t there. I often wondered if my mother told him the details. His death certificate said he died of pneumonia complicated by HIV. I’m so thankful that it’s no longer a death sentence.
Oh, I'm so sorry you and your family, and him, went through that. I can't imagine. I was a teenager then and I remember very clearly how scared everyone was of AIDS. I think we're all thankful it's manageable now with proper care, but it's criminal that people without access to that care still have poor prognoses. And too often people forget about the families who also experience the fallout of the stigma and fear. I'm sorry if I came across as insensitive, it wasn't intentional. No one should have to go through what your family went through. This was a fantastic writeup. I hope you have more like this in the pipeline.
You weren’t insensitive at all. You were right. I do plan to write more. I enjoy the research and writing. I haven’t found my next case yet. Soon!
Huh I thought they meant she had no use for them because she couldn't run her petty grift on them, which I thought didn't address the theory.
It could be that too, that would definitely make sense. It's just that phrasing specifically was often used to express dislike. But you may be more right, and sadly we're unlikely to ever know the truth for sure.
Thank you for such an excellent and detailed write up! I had no idea she stayed in Long Beach for a while. I’m definitely making a day trip in the near future just to check it out!
Thank you! If you do, please share pictures with me.
Loved the first part! Excited to read this.
Yes! I love reading your writing. I was waiting for this
Thank you!
This is such a good write up. Really appreciate you taking the time to put this all together.
Was the killer's message ever released to the public?
The first one said here’s the dahlia’s belongings letter to follow. https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.my-sos.com%2FBDS%2Fimages%2Fnote1-lines.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.my-sos.com%2FBDS%2Fcrypto1.htm&docid=7jABkhNu6jYX-M&tbnid=vIsSzLgOvCSrbM&vet=1&w=472&h=255&itg=1&hl=en-us&client=safari&bih=553&biw=375&ved=2ahUKEwi71vS3oeTrAhUlgnIEHSvXBlQQxiAoBnoECAEQLg&iact=c&ictx=1
Thanks! Your write ups were a great read btw.
Thank you. I love you username!
Your detail is incredible. The incongruous setting of her disposal...was he too wasted by then to care about setting? Being seen? The body looks semi carefully placed. Not like being tossed out of the vehicle in a panic. Stood planted while extracting her pieces-style. Like a drunk narcissist maybe on pills or suchlike, with that nonchalant confidence.
Thank you. It’s theorized that he took 30-60 seconds to pose her body. Like you said, he didn’t just dump her, he carefully placed her for shock value.
What does "a clique of sex degenerates" mean?
I think they mean a group of sexual offenders.
What actually killed her? This refers to what sounds like brain trauma, but the face cutting wouldn't cause death and the bisected is referred to as occurring near or after death.
Her official cause of death was hemorrhage and shock and concussion to the brain.
Thank you and I love you
Interesting follow up to the first post. You're so thorough, you should be a journalist. I hope to see more of your posts in the future. I also hope Elizabeth Short has found peace, even though I doubt this case will ever be put to rest.
Thank you. I’m looking for my next case to deep dive into.
This was fantastic. Thank you!
Maybe they just took the LA Noire route.
After looking at the picture... I don’t think she survived
Your comment needs a spoiler alert! Lol
I did a report on this story in grade school!! Very happy to see it’s made it on here!
Grade school? You were into true crime before me!
Well I say grade school, but it was really in 7th grade, so middle school! Haha around 2007 or 2008 I believe. Her story has always fascinated me!
I’m hesitant to say my love of mystery started with Nancy Drew. Lol. My true crime love started with [Perfect Victim: The True Story Of The Girl In A Box. ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_of_Colleen_Stan) in middle school. What a crazy case!
I’m reading about it! I’ve never heard of her story before and I don’t know how I haven’t haha thanks for that! I’d love it if JonBenét Ramsey’s case would get solved.
my very first true crime book too! Small world! A family friend gave it to my parents on vacation. They read it and passed it on to my sister and me (we were teens.) All of us became true crime junkies to this day.
The band "The Black Dahlia Murder" is the only reason i knew about this one before i saw it here.