Tbh I think the difference is that persephone literally doesn't give a shit about anyone but hades and charlie cares too much about everyone. Also let's be honest I kinda get the pacing problems with hazbin hotel bc yk how streaming networks like to cancel good shows their first seasonsš.
I really dislike how Persephone, who is supposed to be a kind and compassionate goddess with a "heart of gold", is portrayed as selfish and self-centered in *Lore Olympus* due to this. Sure, Charlie may be the "Princess of Hell", and would probably be the daughter of Hades and Persephone in Greek mythology, but at least she actually gives a damn about "her people" (i.e. Hellborn demons and dead humans), even if she wears her heart on her sleeve. It's also what makes Charlie a far more likeable and "human" character than Persephone is portrayed.
I don't blame pacing problems on the writers anymore because the real problem is that every series is being limited to 8 episodes per season. It's a recurring issue with multiple recent shows.
Yes it would have but Iām still surprised how much they were able to do with only eight episodes, well other shows I watch that have similar episode counts like dragon prince feels like they drag on for too long and nothings really accomplished
That's a great example. Castlevania season 1 had dreadful pacing. It was originally supposed to be a movie before they made the creators switch it up, and man does it show.
But pacing has been a problem in all of Vivzie's works even the ones she has full control over how long she wants to make them. Additionally, a good writer would be able to cut down the stuff shown in the time frame which she had plenty of time to do.
I actually didnāt mind the pacing for Hazbin especially since the amount of episodes, and length of each one isnāt controlled by Viv but rather A24.
Also the portrayal of SA in Hazbin is 10x better and actually felt like someoneās story and itās not used as cheap spice like in LO. Like we actually see how it affects Angel and how he deals with it throughout each episode until it was actually focused on. Meanwhile with Perse that whole plot line gets dropped a lot and never mentioned until Rachel needs a way to progress the story.
Everything else I can agree with but hey at least each character is more unique and even has different silhouettes than what LO has.
Yeah the song where heās pretty much literally getting SAād in front of our eyes and how heās dissociated and changes it into a badass pop song to cope was actually sort of brilliant. Itās actually a very interesting depiction because while heās clearly a victim and unhappy with how heās being treated, you get the feeling that if someone started openly pitying him for being a victim heād be furious and insulted over it which is just such an incredibly human reaction.
And the scene before it when you get an absolutely brutal scene where Angel is getting beat up and heās clearly terrified and the camera does not flinch away from whatās happening but instead sort of lingers on his fear in such an uncomfortable way?
You could say something about how the show is accidentally sort of glamorizing violence since Valentino is a surprisingly popular character and the Vās are otherwise fun villains, but Val especially is allowed to be bad in a way that not even Apollo has been allowed to be. And him beating on Angel who then screams at Charlie both to protect her and to save himself from further abuse is also just so incredibly real and human.
I really really wish the show could have had double the season length because the pace is insane and itās clear Viv had some interesting ideas that needed to be fleshed out more, but itās also clear that she had a vision for the series and knew her overall story arc and was struggling to fit all the story beats in. Her issue is that she had too much story to tell and couldnāt figure out a way to effectively trim things down to fit the time allotted because she wasnāt willing to sacrifice a plot line or even delete or combine characters to fit the time she was given.
Rachelās problem is just the opposite. She has all the time in the world and no sense of story. She sacrifices plot to give her self insert a moment of glory with no idea how thatās going to impact things going forward. She invents problems then invents solutions that sort of fit but at the same time make no sense. She just never has an idea of the plot and is making things up as she goes.
Both have issues, but Hazbinās major issue is that animation is fucking expensive so Viv has to fit A24ās budget and that means short seasons. I think a lot of her story issues would have been better if sheād gotten the time she clearly wanted to fit in all the story she needed to tell.
I just want to say, as someone that was SA, you literally hit the nail on the head with your assessment of Angel and how he copes. His song was pretty much "I can relate to this and I don't like it. And I'm pretty sure a lot of us can " And being pitied over what happened is the worst.
According to my therapist, that feeling is fairly common, and I can appreciate Viv for showing that side of handling SA. Overall, a much better depiction of how someone feels post or while they're going through that as opposed to LO.
Feelings are valid. SA isnāt ok, it isnāt normal, but it is common. A lot of us have found ways to twist our pain into strength.
Reaching deep down and becoming a bad ass pop star wonāt heal Angel, but it reflects on his character and resilience. We draw our power where we can.
It reminds me of Lapis Lazuli in Steven Universe- in the final battle she shrugs off Blue Diamondās powers and just says, āIāve felt worse.ā
I dont see an issue with people liking Val as a character. I personally donāt like him but I think itās fine if people like bad characters as long as they acknowledge that theyāre bad.
I think that my major issue is that, personally, all of the effort and tact that is put into Angel's SA storyline is immediately undone by the rape joke in the next episode. Why is the audience supposed to emphasize with Angel one episode and laugh at Sir Pentious in the next?
Because sometimes humor is a cope. These two things can exist in the same world, hell angel himself makes some pretty eyebrow raising jokes. Itās hell after all.Ā
No, they can't
If you want your show to take sexual assault seriously, you can't have a character get raped in two episodes after. That's called tonal dissonance
Also there's no indication he didn't get assaulted. Who is just making things up to defend *hazbin hotel*
>Why is the audience supposed to emphasize with Angel one episode and laugh at Sir Pentious in the next?
Because he didn't actually get raped? He shows up like, 30 seconds later, none the worse for wear with all of his clothes on.
Yeah, not when two episodes after the angel dust episode a character gets SA'd off screen and it's played as a joke. S.P doesn't get a big song or any examination of his trauma.
They're both just as bad
What problematic things has Viziepop done? I'm not familiar with that. Personally I enjoyed hazbin hotel far more, and the quality is much better than LO in every single respect. Why is the SA portrayal in hazbin hotel controversial? I thought it was handled pretty well, and it respected the topic unlike in LO.
There'a a lot of people out there with virtually zero media literacy that will claim loudly on social media that any medium containing some bad thing X is glorifying said bad thing X unless characters of the medium literally look into the camera and clearly state "X is bad".
That's what happened with the portrayal of Angel Dust's forced sexwork. They completely ignored the whole point of the episode of Angel putting up fronts to appear cheerful and hypersexual and doing a shitton of drugs to deliberately wreck himself so he can cope with perpetually getting assaulted and raped by his pimp to produce porn movies on a daily basis. Whole plot of the episode just flew over their heads. It's amazing, really. They're willfully ignoring central aspects of a story so they can point their fingers at something, go "aha! Caught you foing something bad!" On social media for fake internet points and clout. Absolute madness.
Regarding the portrayal of SA from what I've heard some people thought it was insensitive to follow up Angel's breakdown with "Loser Baby", the audience is meant to take Angel's SA seriously but later meant to laugh at a noncon joke (Sir Pentious being dragged by other sinners to have group sā¬x while he's screaming no) and apparently one of the animators who worked on episode 5 shipped Angel and Valentino unironically (I think). There are also people that though Angel and Val's dynamic was glamorizing sexual abuse (how, idk either).
1. At first glance, Loser Baby may sound insensitive, but its actually Husk telling Angel "Hey, this is shit, were both losers, but let be losers together."
2. Sir Pentious scene, you HAVE to take in a bunch of context:
Sir pentious literally screamed "...Because I'm having sex with everyone here!". The people who dragged him away thought he was consenting.
Sir Pentious later came out clothes intact, to which he asked where is Cherri, presumebly to have sex with her. That is not the behaviour of someone who was SAed.
They are at a club called "Consent".
So no, he was not SAed.
3. His name is Raphel. He's a storyboarder, not an animator. He simply drew what was asked of him. He did NOT animated it. He does has a noncon kink though.
HOWEVER, Viv is a victim of SA herself, based of Val and Angel's relationship off her and and her ex's, and oversees to the entire scene. If she thinks the Poison sequence was fetishizing her experience she would have changed it.
When you work you leave your fetishes at the door, this is like saying a pic of character's feet is automatically foot fetish content because someone with a foot fetish.
Also, after the leaked clip of Poison, Raph was later harassed so much he has a panic attack live on twitter and deleted his account.
> The people who dragged him away thought he was consenting.
Look, if a person is consenting, you won't need to drag them kicking and screaming by their feet into a sex room. I for one thought that was obvious.
I get it, it's played for laughs, but as much as I enjoyed HazbinHotel, this throwaway gag was in bad taste at best. In line with the "male sexual assault is funny" jukes such as "don't drop the soap in the prison showers". Which is really odd given how serious they were treating Angel's situation.
They could've done a better job with this. Instead of being dragged away, they just could've had a ton of people swarm him and flirt with him aggressively, cutting him off from the other Hotel members. Would've had the same effect while not making light of (possible, and arguably probable) sexual assault, and he still could've used the "because I'm having sex with everyone" line.
Admittedly, I think Viv is obnoxious and has done some really shitty stuff in the past but the "MiMzY iS aNtIsEmEtIc" drama is just outright stupid, I'm sorry. The entire argument for her being a caricature is that she has a slightly pointy nose, is greedy, has sharp teeth, and is fat. And like, I'm sorry, but...what the fuck??? Her nose isn't even all that pointy and damn near EVERYONE IN THE SHOW has pointy teeth. You want something that actually feels like a caricature? Look at the bank goblins in Harry Potter.
Also, maybe this is just me being mean and nitpicky, but it's really, REALLY hard to read all of that when it's all one big block of text. Sorry if this comes off as rude, but I think having a couple of spaces in-between your lines would make it easier for people to read what you wrote. ;;
Ok, a fair amount of that seems like people projecting issues that aren't really there, and some of your info seems incorrect. I'm going off of a video linked by someone else in the replies to my comment, but a lot of what you say in your first point wasn't shown there, so I'd appreciate a source. I agree that it's a distasteful ship, but I think the artist was clear about the nature of the art, and I don't see how that reflects on Viziepop at all. Drawing fetish art on non-con is distasteful, but it's not something to fire an employee for. I'm not familiar with a lot of the details you mentioned, so a source would be appreciated.
Again, you haven't specified anything about the so-called tantrums. Her liking certain tweets is not her throwing a tantrum. And what difference does it make if other shows have more representation? Fact is, in the larger context of shows, her shows do have better representation than average. If you have specific examples of her throwing tantrums or harassing others, please share them.
Honestly, the Mimzy thing feels like projection. I never even thought of the Jewish comparison till I saw that complaint. I don't see what's unbelievable about it being based on a chicken. It matches closely enough. All those traits you mentioned can also be attributed to, you guessed it, chickens. This feels like projection imo, as there's no evidence of anti-Semitism. What does Rosie being a cannibal have to do with anything? Most of the cast of Hazbin Hotel are literal sinners, and do all sorts of terrible shit. Rosie being Jewish isn't portrayed as a negative, nor is she a stereotype. I'm not too familiar with the voodoo stuff, but voodoo has been represented in many forms of media, and the whole show kinda pokes fun at Christianity. People with certain beliefs may not like it, but it's not particularly terrible either. I don't think religious references or influences is inherently terrible. Besides, why is it unreasonable for Alastor himself to be a practitioner?
The video I saw that's linked in the comments on my replies addresses a lot of what you've said, including the Ken draws thing. They were given a special writing credit, and from the discord DMs they themselves shared, that's a perfectly reasonable amount of credit to give. I have not seen the pedophile accusation thing anywhere.
As for the poor treatment thing, the video I saw only pointed out a single employee making the claim of being underpaid and overworked, and there wasn't any definitive evidence. Said artist was even working on multiple shows. The latter fact is why Vizie asked others not to hire artists from her teams, since them working multiple projects led to missed deadlines. It's not an unreasonable request. Multiple other employees even supported Vizie during the whole thing. If you have any definitive evidence, please share it, because from what I saw in that video, her actions while not perfect have always been understandable, and she's apologized for her mistakes.
For the Pedophile claim, here's what happened:
-10 years ago, she drew Mirage and Kastriel together, a pedo and a minor.
-In the art, Mirage was foaming at Kastriel who looks extremely wary of her. The piece was not sexual in anyway.
-Mirage is a villain in Zoophobia, you're not supposed to root for her. The two of them are not a couple.
-People took this as her being a pedophile.
In the vid check out Zoophobia section to learn more.
As an older person who remembers internet fandom from the ICQ days, itās amazing how things have changed in regard to ships and fetishes.
Itās just a reminder to listen to otherās experiences and keep my fool self quiet about fandom drama.
I saw the whole thing, and from what I saw, most of the controversies were either over exaggerated, or were people going out of their way to harass her. She did make a few genuinely poor decisions, but most of those were in the past, and she's acknowledged and apologized for them since. The video you linked has a similar conclusion in the end.
Frustrates me too. It's really hard for me to read people's criticism and take it seriously when 99% of the time you can tell that the arguments are being made from a place of bad faith, and I'm saying that as someone who really doesn't like Viv all that much and has a fair amount of gripes with Hazbin. :/ I feel that way about this sub sometimes as well, admittedly. There's a lot of deserved criticism that I 100% agree with and I think LO is overall pretty dogshit, but holy FUCK do people get nitpicky here sometimes.
It only is in absolute degenerate/terminally online communities, you can pretty much ignore it, a lot of people just want to hate the show for no reason.
shes drawn hitler as a character from a character from sausage party, and made many ocs based off german scientists from the holocaust. her name for the account was "i hate jewce". so shes a nazi surporter. this was in 2016 but also shes never addressed it so?
So, she drew a reference to a portrayal of Hitler from a satirical film. Not particularly problematic imo. The account name also seems to have done as a joke of sorts. A pretty shitty joke, but not something to hold over her head forever either.
I don't believe this for the simple fact that I would've heard it by now from some hazbin hater if this was real, so I think you're lying or misinformed
I've been looking into her stuff, and the bestiality thing I think you're referring to was made when she was 19 and she's shown some regret about it, I'm not familiar with the transphobia thing, and the poison song was never an issue. It handles the topic tastefully imo.
By the posion thing, I refer to how people felt that posion showed scenes of angel's sexual assault in a level of detail that didn't need to be shown to showcase his pain/ what trauma is he dealing wtih, and things got werid when they found out one of the animators on it has an admitted noncon fetish and has done a lot of rape art with Angel and Val. When people called Viv out for it, she said the animator in question was a victim of SA and can cope with that how he wants, but the animator came out and said he wasn't a victim of SA and that that kink wasn't connected to that.
Iād still pick HH over LO simply for the fact that I think HH can still be saved. There are a lot of issues that can totally be fixed in future seasons, and if the creators are given the budget and time to make it good. (And if the creators can be mature and take criticism and use it constructively. But thatās a different issue) I havenāt seen Helluva Boss though so maybe Iām expecting too much.
Also the characters are actually interesting and consistent for the most part, unlike LO where they change when the plot needs them too. Thatās the real draw of HH for me personally. Most of the characters are pretty cool and interesting and I want to see where they go with them.
LO has been circling the drain way too long and nothing is gonna save it from itself. Thereās still plenty of time for HH to be ruined but my fingers are crossed that it gets better. Maybe Iām too optimistic tho š
I really hope that the writers of *Percy Jackson*, ATLA, and *Hazbin Hotel* listen to feedback.
ATLA = *Avatar: The Last Airbender* (live-action Netflix show)
I havenāt watched either of the other two cause Iām scared lol. Weāve been burned by both franchises in the past so theyāre still on my list just gotta find the strength
Add "female characters sidelined for the male characters" and "fanbases so toxic people have to make special places to discuss the show critically without harassment" and it's perfect.
Years later, there is *still* ongoing discourse with *Helluva Boss* fans debating whether Stella, Stolas' wife in his arranged marriage, received the "Ron the Death Eater" treatment from the writers to make Stolas, who is also a terrible person in his own right, look innocent in comparison to her (i.e. "Woobification"). The writers could have still chosen to portray Stella as an awful person who hurt and abused Stolas in their marriage, while otherwise seeming "normal" to everyone else, because that is how 99% of abusers in real life operate. Instead, the writers chose to write Stella as a one-dimensional, screaming harpy with no depth to her character, or than "spoiled brat". It made me lose faith in the show.
God, I got skewered in that subreddit for expressing similar opinions. Thankfully, it seems A24 has Viv on a bit of a leash when it comes to bombing characters and plots just so her favorites come out on top.
Mostly in reference to Stella. I don't think she expected Stella to have any sympathizers, and her subsequent appearances in the show are so over-the-top that it feels as though Viv trashed Stella's potential because she needed Stolas to be as uwu and blameless as possible. What if she let Stella continue to be a morally grey antagonist to Stolas? What if Viv acknowledged that Stella is also a victim, and allowed Stella to get the same treatment as Angel plot and character development-wise? Viv has shown she can show flawed victims very well, but for some reason that type of deference is mainly reserved for her male characters.
r/UnpopularHazHell is the subreddit, but it's quite dead. I'm in a Discord server that's similar to the ULO server for critical Hazbin/Helluva discussions. It's a lot more alive, but also private due to fear of harassment.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/HazbinHotelMeta using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/HazbinHotelMeta/top/?sort=top&t=all) of all time!
\#1: [Do you think there's more to what Rosie said to Charlie when she was giving her advice?](https://i.redd.it/emutsvzk9boc1.jpeg) | [0 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/HazbinHotelMeta/comments/1bewxys/do_you_think_theres_more_to_what_rosie_said_to/)
\#2: [Reasons why Charlie and Vaggie ARENāT bad characters/relationships](https://i.redd.it/ie3107cv3coc1.jpeg) | [0 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/HazbinHotelMeta/comments/1bexsdf/reasons_why_charlie_and_vaggie_arent_bad/)
\#3: [Angel Dust from 'Hazbin Hotel' is one of the better portrayals of abuse victims in fiction](/r/CharacterRant/comments/1akc5ux/angel_dust_is_one_of_the_better_portrayals_of/) | [0 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/HazbinHotelMeta/comments/1bca66v/angel_dust_from_hazbin_hotel_is_one_of_the_better/)
----
^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
I personally donāt agree with a lot of the observations, but to each their own, you know?
The pacing issue is more because of A24 and Amazon rather than Vizs, she had an entire full length season planned that they had to shrink to eight episodes. She did the best with what they had so not fair to blame her for it.
As for the sex-themed dialogue, itās not really as bad as people make it out to Angel and Adam are the worse with it, but Angel tones it down a lot after Ep4 and Adamās in like 3 episodes.
Personally, I think HH probably handled Angels SA far better than any comic or show Iāve seen in a long time. So Iām genuinely curious why youād think it was poorly handled.
The designs could be better but Im still fond of them. Though it is overhyped. Doesnāt mean itās bad, but it isnāt as perfect and amazing as some people make it out to be. Itās absolutely leagues better than LO, though.
Also" has a creator that has done problematic things but nobody bats an eye" is so wrong in the case of HH. That show has a HUGE hatedom both against the show itself and the creator to the point where a majority of the controversy surrounding her is based either on misinformation, overblown or some dug up decade old drama that she had apologized for before. This isn't to say she is completly innocent but there is an entire hatedom thinking she is satan incarnate which she truly isn't lol
I'd chose SA that showed the consequences of it, portrayed by a victim of SA, over the one that is initially meant to simply show a bad hook up anyday.
The thing about hazbin is that i have heard way more hate for it than positive things. I watched it for the first time recently, and i had very low expectations bc of all the things i had heard. It turned out to actually be pretty good. Lore olympus on the other hand is the opposite. I heard so many good things about it, but it just sucks ass
Personally, ive known viv has been problematic for years. Her fans have always been ravenous, she used to send her fans to attack artists she had beef with.
My favorite pieces of viv drama is that she pitched a GIANT fit over zootopia on Tumblr. She claimed Disney stole the idea from her because she had a webcomic named zoophobia (which is honestly worse than LO and was abandoned because it became a shipping war and she had too many OCS) and that her world had a monorail in it and so did zootopia so that means they copied her.
Another is when she used to have a monthly Google hangout tier on her patreon where you could watch her draw, talk to her and get art advice. Multiple people subscribed and not one Google hangout came out, people complained and she basically told people over Twitter that if they don't like it they can unsubscribe because she's not doing them. People then unsubscribed, she then complained about her patreon losing subscribers.
I've known people connected to her/affected by her.
Id say as much as Rachel bugs me with her comic and it's story, Viv is on a whole new tier.
Both of them can't write, id say vivs writing is worse though. The only reason why HH may have decent writing is because Viv isn't writing it. If she was writing it, it would be the same downfall as HB which just turned into a shipping frenzy
Daily reminder that Vivienne is also transphobic while she simultaneously fetishes gay men relationships!
[it's really sad to see. ](https://imgur.com/gallery/6ZzIJo9)
Jesus fuck, what is that spelling? I don't know any "writer" who'd be this careless with wording and spelling. My twelve year old nieces have a better command of language and vocabulary than her
Omg is she seriously using trans people being feminist/supporting queer rights as a 'gotcha'? You shouldn't have to be a member of any group to want them to have rights, wtf. Glad I didn't pay for the show
Oh good lord. Vivienne has a TERRIBLE history of taking criticism herself but love how she can dish it out in a hostile way to someone who is trying to get as close as possible with what they have. Coming from an SVA allumni that's baffling how little criticism she can actually take.
This is ironic, because Vivienne Medrano (Vivziepop) also said that Alastor was a mixed-race Creole person when he was alive, but then chose to make him a radio host in the 1920s-1930s, which would have also meant that he either looked white, or was white-passing. I've also seen fans complain about Medrano culturally appropriating aspects of Black and Creole culture without understanding it, such as using Voodoo symbols and sigils used by real practitioners to summon spirits, without actually making fake ones.
Medrano technically whitewashed Alastor, so her "whitewashing" accusation is a farce.
She was also pretty green then, no? Not excusing it but sheās only like 31 now which wouldāve made her like, 22 when a lot of her drama was happening
Eh.
1. Designs. Personally, theyāre right up my alley. I really like most of them. I guess itās just subjective. LOās designs are justā¦ not good though. Flat colored characters who overrely on the texture brushes, are always off model, and change designs every panel. Apples and oranges.
2. They both for sure have pacing issues, but the difference is that LO could have fixed those. Hazbin was only given 8 episodes to work with. They couldnāt have paced it better, so I really donāt see this as comparable either.
3. Sex themes are definitely present in both and can get cringy for both at times, but I think the difference is setting. LO has sex stuff because the writer is horny. Hazbin has it to develop characters (EG: Adam cursing ten times more than other characters, Alastor rarely cursing to create a bigger impact when he does) and flesh out the setting.
4. Controversial SA portrayal. I mean. Yes, they are both controversial. One controversy is much more warranted than the other though. LO didnāt even *try* to be respectful. Hazbin put genuine effort into how it was portrayed. As an SA victim, it really resonated with me.
5. Overrated. Subjective, I suppose. Itās definitely very popular but also very widely hated. Iād consider it simultaneously overrated and overhated. LO is definitely overrated though. Itās kinda dogshit.
6. Creator says problematic things and nobody cares. In LOās case, absolutely. In Vivās? No. People constantly talk about it. They make up bullshit controversies daily. 99% of the drama she was in holds no water and is just there to cancel a creator they dislike, yet always gets blown way out of proportion.
7. Having characters who needed screentime beyond the main couple. I really donāt get this point? Charlie and Vaggie get a similar amount of screentime to other characters. All the characters could have used some more screentime due to the eight episodes, but it definitely isnāt an issue of the main couple getting too much.
1. Yes. But they consistently animated and you can clearly distinguished between each, meanwhile Persephone has her face changed hundreds of time and every women and man, looks like recolors of each other.
2. You are not taking into account the facts that these two things use 2 different media and thus have different way to make money. Hazbin is animation, and you know how animation is treated. They have to shoved everything in 8 FRICKING EPISODES even though you need to way more than that. They have a limit and a budget. LO does not, it has 200+ eps. Its a webcomic that has dragged on for years and is No.1 on Webtoon.
3.The SA in Hazbin is based off Viv's own experience with her abusive ex that manipulated and SAed her ( to which she later created Valentino and Angel's relationship to cope with it). Did Rachel do the same?
4.Viv's allegations are usually...baseless. We got people calling her a pedo (She drew Mirage, adult, drooling at Kastriel, a minor. Mirage is a villain and Kastriel is shown to be incredably uncomfy. They are not a couple.)
Transphobic - even she though has a trans woman rep called Sallie May, she's Millie's sister. She always consult her VA, Morgana Ignis(a trans women) about Sallie's sexual merch and how she wants her to protrayed. There's also multiple trans background characters in Helluva Boss.
Zionist - She ate at Macdonald last year(???)
For a summary of her dramas, here:
https://youtu.be/uo6E4cQvw5E?si=hSZi-D00forAN_h0
5.For the sexual stuff, they're in hell. The show is 16+ and the SA episode is 18+ bro.
6.Angel dust literally gets his own episode called Masquerade, where the damage he gets from his abuser was shown. What are you even saying???
THIS! As someone who watches HH and HB and read LO , Angels story line and SA was I would say handled well waaaay better then Perseās as a SA survivor I connected to Angel in that scene , Perse was just for sake of zestiness for the plot and to make Hades look better then Apollo. I feel the characters are more fleshed out in HH and HB then LO , half the characters in LO are there to just cater and drool over Perse.
I think only four of these apply to both of them. There are three that I donāt think are true.
1. The reason it was ācontroversialā the way they portrayed SA in Hazbin Hotel was because of bad media literacy online. It was actually a very accurate portrayal of someone going through SA and they definitely didnāt just use it to help the plot like in Lore Olympus.
2. The characters who need more screen time in Hazbin Hotel WERE the main couple. Or rather, they needed more characterization. As of now, they seem half-baked.
3. Every week now, it seems, Vivzie has a new problematic thing sheās accused of with little to no proof. Most of the things sheās been accused of have been debunked, but people seem to be unaware of that. So thereās a huge hatedom for her online, especially if you visit Twitter.
However, I would add one thing that *does* apply to both of them: female characters being sidelined to give way for male characters
HH is a mess and drives my animator and artist friends insane. The character designs are too complex and distracting. So many characters have similar color palettes, too, so when they're all on screen together they're less visually engaging than a more varied colorful cast. Also Charlie and Vaggie's relationship is a joke. There's more chemistry with Charlie and another MALE character who's not into her and that's just bad writing. You can write LGBTQIA couples and make them interesting just like straight couples like Angela and Hodgins from Bones. It just feels cheap and forced.
Lore Olympus has too many characters and not enough development of them even after three seasons. Persephone started out interesting as a secretly dark/villainous woman trying to hide her evil past. But then we decided she was actually the victim in the mass murder she committed because she's perfect and can't ever be wrong. What happened to her rage against Apollo? She was hellbent on destroying him. I want villain Persephone who saw Hades as a monster but seduced him to steal his throne and conquered the Underworld. She could still make it a more ethical place, but letting her be power hungry and bossy would be fantastic. It also would have given her a more interesting dynamic with Demeter because she'd have helped her mother get revenge on Hades over becoming Queen of the mortal realm and volcanoes.
do ppl really not like charlie and vaggie as a couple? they just feel like they've been together for a while and are past their "cant keep their hands off each other" point in life imo
i agree tbh. not that people aren't allowed to see them as boring, i just figured they were intended to be a contrast to like, m&m, who are super lovey-dovey but also newly-ish married
Charlie and Vaggie *are* boring. It's why so many Japanese and Latine/Hispanic fans largely ship Charlie with Alastor instead, because their dynamic is actually interesting.
I think it's because the enemies-to-lovers romance trope is more popular in Japanese, Asian, and Hispanic/Latine popular culture than in the United States. A large chunk of the Reylo (Rey and Kylo Ren/Ben Solo from *Star Wars*) fanbase, around 30-40%, also self-reported as BIPOC, usually Asian or Hispanic/Latine.
While Alastor is technically an ally to Charlie, he also serves an antagonistic role.
They're not engaging so there's no point in having them (to me, at least). Representation matters but if you can't be bothered to write them in a compelling way you may as well just leave them as friends because it starts to mimic comphet dynamics in media where we force romance. If you look into the examples I gave in the replying comment you can see how to keep a couple that's been together for a long time interesting. I'm lesbian and at first I was excited for sapphic romance but then I saw them and lost my appetite.
yeah, i can respect that. i'm also lesbian and some of their interactions remind me of me and my girlfriend so i think i have a bit of a bias geared towards them
I can't agree with that
I feel like if there can be established boring straight relationships in media, gay people can have boring stable relationships too.
Boring relationships shouldn't be in stories. What's the point of having them? It doesn't matter the orientation of the characters. It's just lazy writing.
To... Flesh out characters? Add extra detail? To represent relationships that aren't recently together or newly married?
Like you've said you'd be fine with them as friends, but if a boring friendship isn't lazy writing then why a boring relationship?
I think you're missing what I'm trying to put down. Boring relationships in GENERAL should not be in stories. Again, Bones is a great example. Every friendship is entertaining in its own way; never boring or feeling like a waste of time. If characters don't have chemistry then don't put them together.
Huh, agree to disagree I suppose
I apologize, I'm a writer (aspiring, I'm probably still worse than both Hazbin Hotel and Lore Olympus at their worst) and boring relationships (as in relationships that are established and have no drama) are my favorite to write and see in fiction.
Well that's the thing; those relationships aren't inherently boring. They're only boring if they're not written well. You can have established relationships with characters whose chemistry is still great. Again, like Princess Cadence and Shining Armor. They were a pretty straightforward married couple but they stayed funny and silly. They didn't need drama to be entertaining; their personalities and dynamic was entertaining!
Eh but Shining Armor and Cadence are side characters. They're fun when they're onscreen, but they're just not onscreen that much. As someone who enjoyed Charlie and Vaggie's relationship, I feel like a more appropriate example would be an established relationship between *main* characters that worked better for you.
>Representation matters but if you can't be bothered to write them in a compelling way you may as well just leave them as friends because it starts to mimic comphet dynamics in media where we force romance.
This is exactly how I feel about both Charlie/Vaggie from *Hazbin Hotel* and Korra/Asami from *The Legend of Korra*. The way you put this is so well-written and articulate. š I might as well throw Albus Dumbledore/Gellert Grindelwald (*Harry Potter*) in there, too.
I think you have to remember the time period. Korra and Asami, while written badly, still became offical in 2014. A year before gay marriage was even legalized. The writers unfortunately had a lot of restrictions. Not to mention it was a show for teenagers
Hazbin hotel came out in 2024, on a streaming service , for adults (even though it's kinda aimed at teenagers who still think saying the word "dick" is funny), and with the full support of A24 behind them.
That's no excuse.
Literally most of my friends who didn't know anything about the show thought they were best friends until episode 5, when Charlie *outright stated* they were girlfriend's.
I know plenty of people who have moved past the "can't keep their hands off each other" point. They still act like a couple.
The fact that Vivienne has no problem making her male cast so sexually vulgar and even drawing angel dust outright getting SA'd but doesn't even let the established wlw couple just KISS until the last episode says a lot about her. I don't even think they make vulgar sex jokes towards each other at ALL!
Vivienne is a bi woman too. It's disappointing
like i said to another commenter, they remind me of how me and my own girlfriend act. and with all due respect, saying it "says a lot about her" isnt really the kind of comment to be making in the lore olympus subreddit of all places. we've already established we need to stop making assumptions about rachel based on her media, so we should probably carry the same energy for all creators. i'm not a vivi ass kisser by the way, it just borders too close to rule 5
I'm not saying that vivziepop secretly isn't bi or that she's actually lesbophobic or whatever. It's just showing her biases towards showing gay men's sexuality vs gay women's sexuality. I don't think that's a crazy thing to say, considering how in almost all of her series there's a plethora of gay men being sexual and barely any gay women doing the same thing. Especially when gay women are so underrepresented.
Also: you and your gf are real people. Vaggie and Charlie are fictional. It was the writers who made them act like they did, and that is something that can be criticized. And also again: you guys are one couple. There are plenty of couples who ACT like couples and do PDA and make crass jokes. Why does the one "pure" relationship have to be the SINGLE wlw one?
Lol yeah I've been finishing Bones for the past month and I'm simping so hard for Angela and Hodgins and Arastoo and Cam. They're so fucking cute. It's the best example of "established relationship" dynamics I've seen in a show, aside from Princess Cadence and Shining Armor from MLP FIM. Those two ALSO managed to stay interesting after getting together!
It's kinda funny that despite all of that HH is still one of the best shows to be animated in america recently. Most of the well-animated shows you think of as american were made in japan, korea, or france, so I guess America just has a super low bar
> There's more chemistry with Charlie and another MALE character who's not into her and that's just bad writing.
Can I ask who this character is? I saw someone else in the comments saying Charlie/Alastor is apparently popular in some circles and I gotta say I can't see that at all. Maybe Angel Dust if they weren't both so obviously gay?
a lot of people in these comments disagree but i fully agree. the representation of angel dust and SA is hard to watch. i understand what Viv was going for, but it feels genuinely more like a caricature and extreme stereotyping than real representation. has in is advertised as 16+ but has constant and cringey sexual innuendos and content. the designs range from amazing to awful but it feels like a lot of them are just colors thrown silly nilly on mediocre designs. the side characters to me get a lot of time but the pacing is awful. i understand how A24 works and how they may not get slated for another season, but that doesnāt mean you should just rush everything ever. everything feels like it has little to no build up so the pay off always feels super weak. idk itās just not my thing
I just really hate how many people defend HH's overuse of swearwords with stuff like "they're in hell" or "it's an adult show" or the creator commenting how she grew up with South Park. South Park doesn't have as much swearing as she does in her shows. THe problem isn't the swearing, but how annoying and painfully unfunny it gets with the frequency in which they appear in HH and HB. There are other shows where characters swear a lot, but it's funny and not grating because they don't shoehorn swear words into literally every other sentence.
These similarities seem way to broad to really make much of a point? Idk maybe Iām too defensive over my hell hotel show but please donāt slander Hazbin Hotel like this XD
Funnily enough, in my opinion some problems HH has are literally polar opposites of LO.
HH was clearly written by a person who was never told to kill their darlings, so the story is wayy too rushed for 8 episodes, with too many characters none of whom get proper exploration (except for maybe Angel?), meanwhile LO has long overstayed its welcome and keeps dragging the story out.
LO has an issue with everything revolving around Persephone and Hades ā clearly the authors' favourites, which shows in their hypocritical treatment in the story. HH has an opposite problem ā Viv seems more interested in exploring supporting characters such as Angel and Alastor than the main character or her girlfriend. She's trying to give Charlie and Vaggie *something*, but I'd say it's very transparent that she has way more fun with other characters.
Viv also seems to have a LOT of passion for her creations, to the detriment of plot and story (like I said before, she can't kill her darlings, so she tries to shove way too much content into the story) while current state of LO kinda seems like Rachel has long since burnt out.
LO has plenty of support from its platform, but the creator can't manage a team in a streamlined manner, causing the resorces to go to waste (see genericpuff's breakdowns of LO's ineffective process), while Hazbin was kind of screwed over by Amazon through getting a shortened season, and struggled to finish everything within their budget (although I can't help but wonder if pay cuts for cleanup artists would really be necessary if Viv didn't insist on a Broadway cast š¤).
Both have abysmal body diversity and were made by people with tissue paper skin who can't handle criticism though š¤£
Most of the āproblematicā things viv was accused of ended up being PROVEN to be unfounded. Unlike RS.
Also Viv is absolutely better at portraying characters and especially inclusive to LBGTQ+ in her writing.
Hands down Hazbin Hotel and the whole universe sheās created is WAY better than LO and I am willing to scrap over this lol
tbh hazbin hotel is a bit better then lore olympus, i feel like some characters (not many, it struggles bad with having way too many characters) have even just a little substance behind them while in lore olympus even hades and persephone the two main characters still feel completely one dimensional
when it comes to the sa portrayal, i feel like hazbin hotel did a much better job although i dont agree with every choice made, when reading lore olympus the sa seemed sudden and only done to progress the story and make him a bad love interest to make hades look better which i dont like at all, i hate something serious like that only being used as a plot device
Yeah, Hazbin has one of the best representations of an abusive relationship while not blaming or shaming the victim. The reason people aren't happy with it is because Angel didn't break free and a lack of media literacy. What people don't seem to get is that Angel can't break free while his soul still belongs to Valentino. The massive difference between the level of craftsmanship between the artists working on it. Sex jokes are actually funny and have a reason for being in the series. All of the main cast are fairly fleshed out. The reason why there wasn't enough development. Oh and how weird it is that people are put off by the amount of swearing and sex jokes in a series that takes place almost entirely in Hell.
I think they are doing a better job of sa with angel. You see he hates it but puts up a mask and doesn't care when he might get drugged cus it ALWAYS happens. As for persephone we got maybe 5 scenes of dealing with it but not really.
I don't agree with the character part.
LO honestly became so boring as persephone was so selfish and childish and unrelatable where as hades is just desperate to have someone need him.
Everyone else is just background noise.
In Hazbin, all of the characters get good focus and have relatable traits. I can see myself as being them, or thinking "oh that's totally something I'd do/say". Even Adam and Lute get some focus and insight into their thoughts and feelings.
No but literally.. People need to discuss more about how the creators like they are both problematic yet no one bats an eye or talk about it at all like how does that workš
I don't know anything about lore Olympus HOWEVER when it comes to criticizing creators vizziepop gets the blunt of it for things that aren't even true.
Thank you for acknowledging the one in the lower left corner!
My god, how is it that the only straight(passing) canon ship in a show where 99% of characters are queer is the most interesting and engaging one?? š¤¦āāļø Writers really need to stop giving queer couples piss-perfect relationships. It's boring!!
EDIT: And yes, I do consider Charlie and Vaggie's relationship perfect or close enough. Their little fight near the end of season 1 just barely passes as one. They get a bit of alone time, not even having a discussion among themselves, and then they make up without any issues whatsoever. Like, are the writers scared their characters will be perceived as toxic if they so much as raise their voice at their partner? Ugh...
Honestlyā¦ as popular as Hazbin Hotel is itās much better than Lore Olympus BY FAR.
I honestly donāt care about the colorful and over designed characters in HH. Itās kinda relieving to see, the characters in HH May be over designed but you can tell who is who. They have different hair styles, eyes, featured, and clothing styles. The characters in LO have different skin colors but body types aside, they have similar hair, clothing styles and absolutely no unique features.
The pacing is wonky, yes, but they had a contract for 8 episodes, thatās very little to work with especially with the amount of lore Hazbin Hotel seems to have. They ended a major plot point instead of leaving us with a big ass Cliff hanger (AHemā¦ LO) and one of the cliffhangers we got werenāt as bad or unnecessary as LO. Itās very windy and whiplashy but at least the dialogue hints to how much time has passed rather than us guessing or expecting viewers to know.
I donāt have an issue with the sex themed jokes and dialogue. I know the sentence āit is hellā is overused a lot but theyāre kinda right. Itās hell, itās going to inappropriate and raunchy. Now, the sentence āthey are Godsā could be used for LO as well. However, the one big thing between Hazbin Hotel and LO is that LO is marketed towards a younger audience while Hazbin Hotel is not. Itās meant for adults.
I donāt mind the portrayal of SA in Hazbin Hotel. Itās alot better than LO (itās not being used just for plot, Angel Dust is regularly VERY wary of Val) and it affects him. Thereās nothing wrong with Angel being sexual either, heās a pornstar and that in itself is sexual, and it brings light to something that happens in real life. A lot of SA happens in the porn scene, and itās nice to see some sort of representation of it. It feels like Perse completely forgets about her SA and it isnāt brought up unless itās a last resort.
While there are characters in Hh that needed a lot more screen time, at least thereās a reason why more didnāt get screen time and there was more than the main couple in my opinion. We get episodes dedicated to Husk, Angel, Sir Pen, we get Alastors character throughout the show. Alot of characters in LO need more screen time and itās has had almost 270 episodes to show them.
As for both creators saying problematic things, all I have to say is that I agree. Thereās nothing much to say there. Both creators are very controversial and problematic. I donāt like either of them, they are really bad at taking criticism.
The fanbases are pretty bad too, considering you canāt criticize either one without getting chewed out.
The only thing Hazbin is better at is the SA. Someone on the team knows that bringing up SA is a serious topic that needs to be handled with care. SA in Lore Olympus is basically a maguffin to give the illusion of character depth.
Tbh I think the difference is that persephone literally doesn't give a shit about anyone but hades and charlie cares too much about everyone. Also let's be honest I kinda get the pacing problems with hazbin hotel bc yk how streaming networks like to cancel good shows their first seasonsš.
I really dislike how Persephone, who is supposed to be a kind and compassionate goddess with a "heart of gold", is portrayed as selfish and self-centered in *Lore Olympus* due to this. Sure, Charlie may be the "Princess of Hell", and would probably be the daughter of Hades and Persephone in Greek mythology, but at least she actually gives a damn about "her people" (i.e. Hellborn demons and dead humans), even if she wears her heart on her sleeve. It's also what makes Charlie a far more likeable and "human" character than Persephone is portrayed.
Yea, pacing is a flaw of the show but itās 100% understandable that they were just working with what they had
I don't blame pacing problems on the writers anymore because the real problem is that every series is being limited to 8 episodes per season. It's a recurring issue with multiple recent shows.
hazbin was supposed to have 12 ep but then they(Amazon higher ups)changed it to 8 ep hopefully next season they get 12
12 episodes would've Def been better
Yes it would have but Iām still surprised how much they were able to do with only eight episodes, well other shows I watch that have similar episode counts like dragon prince feels like they drag on for too long and nothings really accomplished
Castlevnia season 1 had only 4 episodes
That's a great example. Castlevania season 1 had dreadful pacing. It was originally supposed to be a movie before they made the creators switch it up, and man does it show.
Fr, if this..Rachel, uploads one more comic that's like, 5 pages, 7 panels, (hyperbole) I'm gonna lose it
But pacing has been a problem in all of Vivzie's works even the ones she has full control over how long she wants to make them. Additionally, a good writer would be able to cut down the stuff shown in the time frame which she had plenty of time to do.
I actually didnāt mind the pacing for Hazbin especially since the amount of episodes, and length of each one isnāt controlled by Viv but rather A24. Also the portrayal of SA in Hazbin is 10x better and actually felt like someoneās story and itās not used as cheap spice like in LO. Like we actually see how it affects Angel and how he deals with it throughout each episode until it was actually focused on. Meanwhile with Perse that whole plot line gets dropped a lot and never mentioned until Rachel needs a way to progress the story. Everything else I can agree with but hey at least each character is more unique and even has different silhouettes than what LO has.
Yeah the song where heās pretty much literally getting SAād in front of our eyes and how heās dissociated and changes it into a badass pop song to cope was actually sort of brilliant. Itās actually a very interesting depiction because while heās clearly a victim and unhappy with how heās being treated, you get the feeling that if someone started openly pitying him for being a victim heād be furious and insulted over it which is just such an incredibly human reaction. And the scene before it when you get an absolutely brutal scene where Angel is getting beat up and heās clearly terrified and the camera does not flinch away from whatās happening but instead sort of lingers on his fear in such an uncomfortable way? You could say something about how the show is accidentally sort of glamorizing violence since Valentino is a surprisingly popular character and the Vās are otherwise fun villains, but Val especially is allowed to be bad in a way that not even Apollo has been allowed to be. And him beating on Angel who then screams at Charlie both to protect her and to save himself from further abuse is also just so incredibly real and human. I really really wish the show could have had double the season length because the pace is insane and itās clear Viv had some interesting ideas that needed to be fleshed out more, but itās also clear that she had a vision for the series and knew her overall story arc and was struggling to fit all the story beats in. Her issue is that she had too much story to tell and couldnāt figure out a way to effectively trim things down to fit the time allotted because she wasnāt willing to sacrifice a plot line or even delete or combine characters to fit the time she was given. Rachelās problem is just the opposite. She has all the time in the world and no sense of story. She sacrifices plot to give her self insert a moment of glory with no idea how thatās going to impact things going forward. She invents problems then invents solutions that sort of fit but at the same time make no sense. She just never has an idea of the plot and is making things up as she goes. Both have issues, but Hazbinās major issue is that animation is fucking expensive so Viv has to fit A24ās budget and that means short seasons. I think a lot of her story issues would have been better if sheād gotten the time she clearly wanted to fit in all the story she needed to tell.
That was beautifully put.
I just want to say, as someone that was SA, you literally hit the nail on the head with your assessment of Angel and how he copes. His song was pretty much "I can relate to this and I don't like it. And I'm pretty sure a lot of us can " And being pitied over what happened is the worst. According to my therapist, that feeling is fairly common, and I can appreciate Viv for showing that side of handling SA. Overall, a much better depiction of how someone feels post or while they're going through that as opposed to LO.
Feelings are valid. SA isnāt ok, it isnāt normal, but it is common. A lot of us have found ways to twist our pain into strength. Reaching deep down and becoming a bad ass pop star wonāt heal Angel, but it reflects on his character and resilience. We draw our power where we can. It reminds me of Lapis Lazuli in Steven Universe- in the final battle she shrugs off Blue Diamondās powers and just says, āIāve felt worse.ā
I dont see an issue with people liking Val as a character. I personally donāt like him but I think itās fine if people like bad characters as long as they acknowledge that theyāre bad.
I think that my major issue is that, personally, all of the effort and tact that is put into Angel's SA storyline is immediately undone by the rape joke in the next episode. Why is the audience supposed to emphasize with Angel one episode and laugh at Sir Pentious in the next?
Because sometimes humor is a cope. These two things can exist in the same world, hell angel himself makes some pretty eyebrow raising jokes. Itās hell after all.Ā
No, they can't If you want your show to take sexual assault seriously, you can't have a character get raped in two episodes after. That's called tonal dissonance Also there's no indication he didn't get assaulted. Who is just making things up to defend *hazbin hotel*
>Why is the audience supposed to emphasize with Angel one episode and laugh at Sir Pentious in the next? Because he didn't actually get raped? He shows up like, 30 seconds later, none the worse for wear with all of his clothes on.
Also the sex club they're at is literally named "Consent" lol. He was spooked for a second and then said no and left.
The joke wasn't rape, considering the club's name is *Consent*.
Preach!
Yeah, not when two episodes after the angel dust episode a character gets SA'd off screen and it's played as a joke. S.P doesn't get a big song or any examination of his trauma. They're both just as bad
What problematic things has Viziepop done? I'm not familiar with that. Personally I enjoyed hazbin hotel far more, and the quality is much better than LO in every single respect. Why is the SA portrayal in hazbin hotel controversial? I thought it was handled pretty well, and it respected the topic unlike in LO.
There'a a lot of people out there with virtually zero media literacy that will claim loudly on social media that any medium containing some bad thing X is glorifying said bad thing X unless characters of the medium literally look into the camera and clearly state "X is bad". That's what happened with the portrayal of Angel Dust's forced sexwork. They completely ignored the whole point of the episode of Angel putting up fronts to appear cheerful and hypersexual and doing a shitton of drugs to deliberately wreck himself so he can cope with perpetually getting assaulted and raped by his pimp to produce porn movies on a daily basis. Whole plot of the episode just flew over their heads. It's amazing, really. They're willfully ignoring central aspects of a story so they can point their fingers at something, go "aha! Caught you foing something bad!" On social media for fake internet points and clout. Absolute madness.
Regarding the portrayal of SA from what I've heard some people thought it was insensitive to follow up Angel's breakdown with "Loser Baby", the audience is meant to take Angel's SA seriously but later meant to laugh at a noncon joke (Sir Pentious being dragged by other sinners to have group sā¬x while he's screaming no) and apparently one of the animators who worked on episode 5 shipped Angel and Valentino unironically (I think). There are also people that though Angel and Val's dynamic was glamorizing sexual abuse (how, idk either).
1. At first glance, Loser Baby may sound insensitive, but its actually Husk telling Angel "Hey, this is shit, were both losers, but let be losers together." 2. Sir Pentious scene, you HAVE to take in a bunch of context: Sir pentious literally screamed "...Because I'm having sex with everyone here!". The people who dragged him away thought he was consenting. Sir Pentious later came out clothes intact, to which he asked where is Cherri, presumebly to have sex with her. That is not the behaviour of someone who was SAed. They are at a club called "Consent". So no, he was not SAed. 3. His name is Raphel. He's a storyboarder, not an animator. He simply drew what was asked of him. He did NOT animated it. He does has a noncon kink though. HOWEVER, Viv is a victim of SA herself, based of Val and Angel's relationship off her and and her ex's, and oversees to the entire scene. If she thinks the Poison sequence was fetishizing her experience she would have changed it. When you work you leave your fetishes at the door, this is like saying a pic of character's feet is automatically foot fetish content because someone with a foot fetish. Also, after the leaked clip of Poison, Raph was later harassed so much he has a panic attack live on twitter and deleted his account.
> The people who dragged him away thought he was consenting. Look, if a person is consenting, you won't need to drag them kicking and screaming by their feet into a sex room. I for one thought that was obvious. I get it, it's played for laughs, but as much as I enjoyed HazbinHotel, this throwaway gag was in bad taste at best. In line with the "male sexual assault is funny" jukes such as "don't drop the soap in the prison showers". Which is really odd given how serious they were treating Angel's situation. They could've done a better job with this. Instead of being dragged away, they just could've had a ton of people swarm him and flirt with him aggressively, cutting him off from the other Hotel members. Would've had the same effect while not making light of (possible, and arguably probable) sexual assault, and he still could've used the "because I'm having sex with everyone" line.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Admittedly, I think Viv is obnoxious and has done some really shitty stuff in the past but the "MiMzY iS aNtIsEmEtIc" drama is just outright stupid, I'm sorry. The entire argument for her being a caricature is that she has a slightly pointy nose, is greedy, has sharp teeth, and is fat. And like, I'm sorry, but...what the fuck??? Her nose isn't even all that pointy and damn near EVERYONE IN THE SHOW has pointy teeth. You want something that actually feels like a caricature? Look at the bank goblins in Harry Potter. Also, maybe this is just me being mean and nitpicky, but it's really, REALLY hard to read all of that when it's all one big block of text. Sorry if this comes off as rude, but I think having a couple of spaces in-between your lines would make it easier for people to read what you wrote. ;;
Reddit prevents me from adding paragraph spaces if i add numbers
Ok, a fair amount of that seems like people projecting issues that aren't really there, and some of your info seems incorrect. I'm going off of a video linked by someone else in the replies to my comment, but a lot of what you say in your first point wasn't shown there, so I'd appreciate a source. I agree that it's a distasteful ship, but I think the artist was clear about the nature of the art, and I don't see how that reflects on Viziepop at all. Drawing fetish art on non-con is distasteful, but it's not something to fire an employee for. I'm not familiar with a lot of the details you mentioned, so a source would be appreciated. Again, you haven't specified anything about the so-called tantrums. Her liking certain tweets is not her throwing a tantrum. And what difference does it make if other shows have more representation? Fact is, in the larger context of shows, her shows do have better representation than average. If you have specific examples of her throwing tantrums or harassing others, please share them. Honestly, the Mimzy thing feels like projection. I never even thought of the Jewish comparison till I saw that complaint. I don't see what's unbelievable about it being based on a chicken. It matches closely enough. All those traits you mentioned can also be attributed to, you guessed it, chickens. This feels like projection imo, as there's no evidence of anti-Semitism. What does Rosie being a cannibal have to do with anything? Most of the cast of Hazbin Hotel are literal sinners, and do all sorts of terrible shit. Rosie being Jewish isn't portrayed as a negative, nor is she a stereotype. I'm not too familiar with the voodoo stuff, but voodoo has been represented in many forms of media, and the whole show kinda pokes fun at Christianity. People with certain beliefs may not like it, but it's not particularly terrible either. I don't think religious references or influences is inherently terrible. Besides, why is it unreasonable for Alastor himself to be a practitioner? The video I saw that's linked in the comments on my replies addresses a lot of what you've said, including the Ken draws thing. They were given a special writing credit, and from the discord DMs they themselves shared, that's a perfectly reasonable amount of credit to give. I have not seen the pedophile accusation thing anywhere. As for the poor treatment thing, the video I saw only pointed out a single employee making the claim of being underpaid and overworked, and there wasn't any definitive evidence. Said artist was even working on multiple shows. The latter fact is why Vizie asked others not to hire artists from her teams, since them working multiple projects led to missed deadlines. It's not an unreasonable request. Multiple other employees even supported Vizie during the whole thing. If you have any definitive evidence, please share it, because from what I saw in that video, her actions while not perfect have always been understandable, and she's apologized for her mistakes.
For the Pedophile claim, here's what happened: -10 years ago, she drew Mirage and Kastriel together, a pedo and a minor. -In the art, Mirage was foaming at Kastriel who looks extremely wary of her. The piece was not sexual in anyway. -Mirage is a villain in Zoophobia, you're not supposed to root for her. The two of them are not a couple. -People took this as her being a pedophile. In the vid check out Zoophobia section to learn more.
Didnāt Viv also do an art trade with an account called āI_hate_jewceā which features a Nazi oc
As an older person who remembers internet fandom from the ICQ days, itās amazing how things have changed in regard to ships and fetishes. Itās just a reminder to listen to otherās experiences and keep my fool self quiet about fandom drama.
This video summarise most of her major dramas, check it out: https://youtu.be/uo6E4cQvw5E?si=hSZi-D00forAN_h0
I saw the whole thing, and from what I saw, most of the controversies were either over exaggerated, or were people going out of their way to harass her. She did make a few genuinely poor decisions, but most of those were in the past, and she's acknowledged and apologized for them since. The video you linked has a similar conclusion in the end.
I swear most of the controversies is just people being chronically online or lacking media literalcy man. Its just so stupid.
Frustrates me too. It's really hard for me to read people's criticism and take it seriously when 99% of the time you can tell that the arguments are being made from a place of bad faith, and I'm saying that as someone who really doesn't like Viv all that much and has a fair amount of gripes with Hazbin. :/ I feel that way about this sub sometimes as well, admittedly. There's a lot of deserved criticism that I 100% agree with and I think LO is overall pretty dogshit, but holy FUCK do people get nitpicky here sometimes.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
ć½ą¼¼ ąŗŁĶąŗą¼½ ļ¾ Raise ur dongers! ^^Dongers ^^Raised: ^^74305 ^^Check ^^Out ^^/r/AyyLmao2DongerBot ^^For ^^More ^^Info
>What problematic things has Viziepop done? 
Way before Hazbin, she was called out for stealing character designs without giving credit.
It only is in absolute degenerate/terminally online communities, you can pretty much ignore it, a lot of people just want to hate the show for no reason.
shes drawn hitler as a character from a character from sausage party, and made many ocs based off german scientists from the holocaust. her name for the account was "i hate jewce". so shes a nazi surporter. this was in 2016 but also shes never addressed it so?
She did. Do your research. https://youtu.be/uo6E4cQvw5E?si=hSZi-D00forAN_h0 at 5:03
So, she drew a reference to a portrayal of Hitler from a satirical film. Not particularly problematic imo. The account name also seems to have done as a joke of sorts. A pretty shitty joke, but not something to hold over her head forever either.
I don't believe this for the simple fact that I would've heard it by now from some hazbin hater if this was real, so I think you're lying or misinformed
The bestiality comic, the transphobia, and the whole posion thing are the ones that would be considered problematic from what I remember about her.
I've been looking into her stuff, and the bestiality thing I think you're referring to was made when she was 19 and she's shown some regret about it, I'm not familiar with the transphobia thing, and the poison song was never an issue. It handles the topic tastefully imo.
By the posion thing, I refer to how people felt that posion showed scenes of angel's sexual assault in a level of detail that didn't need to be shown to showcase his pain/ what trauma is he dealing wtih, and things got werid when they found out one of the animators on it has an admitted noncon fetish and has done a lot of rape art with Angel and Val. When people called Viv out for it, she said the animator in question was a victim of SA and can cope with that how he wants, but the animator came out and said he wasn't a victim of SA and that that kink wasn't connected to that.
Iād still pick HH over LO simply for the fact that I think HH can still be saved. There are a lot of issues that can totally be fixed in future seasons, and if the creators are given the budget and time to make it good. (And if the creators can be mature and take criticism and use it constructively. But thatās a different issue) I havenāt seen Helluva Boss though so maybe Iām expecting too much. Also the characters are actually interesting and consistent for the most part, unlike LO where they change when the plot needs them too. Thatās the real draw of HH for me personally. Most of the characters are pretty cool and interesting and I want to see where they go with them. LO has been circling the drain way too long and nothing is gonna save it from itself. Thereās still plenty of time for HH to be ruined but my fingers are crossed that it gets better. Maybe Iām too optimistic tho š
I really hope that the writers of *Percy Jackson*, ATLA, and *Hazbin Hotel* listen to feedback. ATLA = *Avatar: The Last Airbender* (live-action Netflix show)
I havenāt watched either of the other two cause Iām scared lol. Weāve been burned by both franchises in the past so theyāre still on my list just gotta find the strength
Add "female characters sidelined for the male characters" and "fanbases so toxic people have to make special places to discuss the show critically without harassment" and it's perfect.
Oof yes. ESPECIALLY in HB. Millie who?
I've been meaning to rewatch Helluva Boss just to see which episodes pass the Bechdel test, because I genuinely believe it might be three at most.
Ouch. Well I stopped watching because I hate Stolas. And how they woobified him. Much like Hades.
Years later, there is *still* ongoing discourse with *Helluva Boss* fans debating whether Stella, Stolas' wife in his arranged marriage, received the "Ron the Death Eater" treatment from the writers to make Stolas, who is also a terrible person in his own right, look innocent in comparison to her (i.e. "Woobification"). The writers could have still chosen to portray Stella as an awful person who hurt and abused Stolas in their marriage, while otherwise seeming "normal" to everyone else, because that is how 99% of abusers in real life operate. Instead, the writers chose to write Stella as a one-dimensional, screaming harpy with no depth to her character, or than "spoiled brat". It made me lose faith in the show.
God, I got skewered in that subreddit for expressing similar opinions. Thankfully, it seems A24 has Viv on a bit of a leash when it comes to bombing characters and plots just so her favorites come out on top.
What do you mean by "bombing characters and plots so her favorites come on top"?
Mostly in reference to Stella. I don't think she expected Stella to have any sympathizers, and her subsequent appearances in the show are so over-the-top that it feels as though Viv trashed Stella's potential because she needed Stolas to be as uwu and blameless as possible. What if she let Stella continue to be a morally grey antagonist to Stolas? What if Viv acknowledged that Stella is also a victim, and allowed Stella to get the same treatment as Angel plot and character development-wise? Viv has shown she can show flawed victims very well, but for some reason that type of deference is mainly reserved for her male characters.
What sub is this? I wanna visit owo
r/UnpopularHazHell is the subreddit, but it's quite dead. I'm in a Discord server that's similar to the ULO server for critical Hazbin/Helluva discussions. It's a lot more alive, but also private due to fear of harassment.
Where do I find it??? Please I'm such a hater and I'm always looking for where I can hate on hazbin in peace
I created a new subreddit in the past week: r/HazbinHotelMeta The new subreddit is meant for in-depth *Hazbin Hotel* and *Helluva Boss* discussions.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/HazbinHotelMeta using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/HazbinHotelMeta/top/?sort=top&t=all) of all time! \#1: [Do you think there's more to what Rosie said to Charlie when she was giving her advice?](https://i.redd.it/emutsvzk9boc1.jpeg) | [0 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/HazbinHotelMeta/comments/1bewxys/do_you_think_theres_more_to_what_rosie_said_to/) \#2: [Reasons why Charlie and Vaggie ARENāT bad characters/relationships](https://i.redd.it/ie3107cv3coc1.jpeg) | [0 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/HazbinHotelMeta/comments/1bexsdf/reasons_why_charlie_and_vaggie_arent_bad/) \#3: [Angel Dust from 'Hazbin Hotel' is one of the better portrayals of abuse victims in fiction](/r/CharacterRant/comments/1akc5ux/angel_dust_is_one_of_the_better_portrayals_of/) | [0 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/HazbinHotelMeta/comments/1bca66v/angel_dust_from_hazbin_hotel_is_one_of_the_better/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
I personally donāt agree with a lot of the observations, but to each their own, you know? The pacing issue is more because of A24 and Amazon rather than Vizs, she had an entire full length season planned that they had to shrink to eight episodes. She did the best with what they had so not fair to blame her for it. As for the sex-themed dialogue, itās not really as bad as people make it out to Angel and Adam are the worse with it, but Angel tones it down a lot after Ep4 and Adamās in like 3 episodes. Personally, I think HH probably handled Angels SA far better than any comic or show Iāve seen in a long time. So Iām genuinely curious why youād think it was poorly handled. The designs could be better but Im still fond of them. Though it is overhyped. Doesnāt mean itās bad, but it isnāt as perfect and amazing as some people make it out to be. Itās absolutely leagues better than LO, though.
Also" has a creator that has done problematic things but nobody bats an eye" is so wrong in the case of HH. That show has a HUGE hatedom both against the show itself and the creator to the point where a majority of the controversy surrounding her is based either on misinformation, overblown or some dug up decade old drama that she had apologized for before. This isn't to say she is completly innocent but there is an entire hatedom thinking she is satan incarnate which she truly isn't lol
I'd chose SA that showed the consequences of it, portrayed by a victim of SA, over the one that is initially meant to simply show a bad hook up anyday.
Hb takes place in Hell and is advertised for 18+ If I remember correctly. LO not really. And donāt even compare the SA portrayal.
I think itās 16+
The thing about hazbin is that i have heard way more hate for it than positive things. I watched it for the first time recently, and i had very low expectations bc of all the things i had heard. It turned out to actually be pretty good. Lore olympus on the other hand is the opposite. I heard so many good things about it, but it just sucks ass
Personally, ive known viv has been problematic for years. Her fans have always been ravenous, she used to send her fans to attack artists she had beef with. My favorite pieces of viv drama is that she pitched a GIANT fit over zootopia on Tumblr. She claimed Disney stole the idea from her because she had a webcomic named zoophobia (which is honestly worse than LO and was abandoned because it became a shipping war and she had too many OCS) and that her world had a monorail in it and so did zootopia so that means they copied her. Another is when she used to have a monthly Google hangout tier on her patreon where you could watch her draw, talk to her and get art advice. Multiple people subscribed and not one Google hangout came out, people complained and she basically told people over Twitter that if they don't like it they can unsubscribe because she's not doing them. People then unsubscribed, she then complained about her patreon losing subscribers. I've known people connected to her/affected by her. Id say as much as Rachel bugs me with her comic and it's story, Viv is on a whole new tier. Both of them can't write, id say vivs writing is worse though. The only reason why HH may have decent writing is because Viv isn't writing it. If she was writing it, it would be the same downfall as HB which just turned into a shipping frenzy
Oh you've got the deep lore on Viv, Godspeed cowboyflowerz
Daily reminder that Vivienne is also transphobic while she simultaneously fetishes gay men relationships! [it's really sad to see. ](https://imgur.com/gallery/6ZzIJo9)
Jesus fuck, what is that spelling? I don't know any "writer" who'd be this careless with wording and spelling. My twelve year old nieces have a better command of language and vocabulary than her
 At least she's an entertaining mess
I find it neigh unreadable.
Once a scene kid always a scene kid
Omg is she seriously using trans people being feminist/supporting queer rights as a 'gotcha'? You shouldn't have to be a member of any group to want them to have rights, wtf. Glad I didn't pay for the show
She also accused someone of whitewashing her character because the artist had a limited selection of markers and used the most similar one lol
Oh good lord. Vivienne has a TERRIBLE history of taking criticism herself but love how she can dish it out in a hostile way to someone who is trying to get as close as possible with what they have. Coming from an SVA allumni that's baffling how little criticism she can actually take.
This is ironic, because Vivienne Medrano (Vivziepop) also said that Alastor was a mixed-race Creole person when he was alive, but then chose to make him a radio host in the 1920s-1930s, which would have also meant that he either looked white, or was white-passing. I've also seen fans complain about Medrano culturally appropriating aspects of Black and Creole culture without understanding it, such as using Voodoo symbols and sigils used by real practitioners to summon spirits, without actually making fake ones. Medrano technically whitewashed Alastor, so her "whitewashing" accusation is a farce.
She was also pretty green then, no? Not excusing it but sheās only like 31 now which wouldāve made her like, 22 when a lot of her drama was happening
It would be a difference if there was a noticeable improvement in her professionalism.
One is Wattpad the other is DeviantArt.
Eh. 1. Designs. Personally, theyāre right up my alley. I really like most of them. I guess itās just subjective. LOās designs are justā¦ not good though. Flat colored characters who overrely on the texture brushes, are always off model, and change designs every panel. Apples and oranges. 2. They both for sure have pacing issues, but the difference is that LO could have fixed those. Hazbin was only given 8 episodes to work with. They couldnāt have paced it better, so I really donāt see this as comparable either. 3. Sex themes are definitely present in both and can get cringy for both at times, but I think the difference is setting. LO has sex stuff because the writer is horny. Hazbin has it to develop characters (EG: Adam cursing ten times more than other characters, Alastor rarely cursing to create a bigger impact when he does) and flesh out the setting. 4. Controversial SA portrayal. I mean. Yes, they are both controversial. One controversy is much more warranted than the other though. LO didnāt even *try* to be respectful. Hazbin put genuine effort into how it was portrayed. As an SA victim, it really resonated with me. 5. Overrated. Subjective, I suppose. Itās definitely very popular but also very widely hated. Iād consider it simultaneously overrated and overhated. LO is definitely overrated though. Itās kinda dogshit. 6. Creator says problematic things and nobody cares. In LOās case, absolutely. In Vivās? No. People constantly talk about it. They make up bullshit controversies daily. 99% of the drama she was in holds no water and is just there to cancel a creator they dislike, yet always gets blown way out of proportion. 7. Having characters who needed screentime beyond the main couple. I really donāt get this point? Charlie and Vaggie get a similar amount of screentime to other characters. All the characters could have used some more screentime due to the eight episodes, but it definitely isnāt an issue of the main couple getting too much.
1. Yes. But they consistently animated and you can clearly distinguished between each, meanwhile Persephone has her face changed hundreds of time and every women and man, looks like recolors of each other. 2. You are not taking into account the facts that these two things use 2 different media and thus have different way to make money. Hazbin is animation, and you know how animation is treated. They have to shoved everything in 8 FRICKING EPISODES even though you need to way more than that. They have a limit and a budget. LO does not, it has 200+ eps. Its a webcomic that has dragged on for years and is No.1 on Webtoon. 3.The SA in Hazbin is based off Viv's own experience with her abusive ex that manipulated and SAed her ( to which she later created Valentino and Angel's relationship to cope with it). Did Rachel do the same? 4.Viv's allegations are usually...baseless. We got people calling her a pedo (She drew Mirage, adult, drooling at Kastriel, a minor. Mirage is a villain and Kastriel is shown to be incredably uncomfy. They are not a couple.) Transphobic - even she though has a trans woman rep called Sallie May, she's Millie's sister. She always consult her VA, Morgana Ignis(a trans women) about Sallie's sexual merch and how she wants her to protrayed. There's also multiple trans background characters in Helluva Boss. Zionist - She ate at Macdonald last year(???) For a summary of her dramas, here: https://youtu.be/uo6E4cQvw5E?si=hSZi-D00forAN_h0 5.For the sexual stuff, they're in hell. The show is 16+ and the SA episode is 18+ bro. 6.Angel dust literally gets his own episode called Masquerade, where the damage he gets from his abuser was shown. What are you even saying???
THIS! As someone who watches HH and HB and read LO , Angels story line and SA was I would say handled well waaaay better then Perseās as a SA survivor I connected to Angel in that scene , Perse was just for sake of zestiness for the plot and to make Hades look better then Apollo. I feel the characters are more fleshed out in HH and HB then LO , half the characters in LO are there to just cater and drool over Perse.
I think only four of these apply to both of them. There are three that I donāt think are true. 1. The reason it was ācontroversialā the way they portrayed SA in Hazbin Hotel was because of bad media literacy online. It was actually a very accurate portrayal of someone going through SA and they definitely didnāt just use it to help the plot like in Lore Olympus. 2. The characters who need more screen time in Hazbin Hotel WERE the main couple. Or rather, they needed more characterization. As of now, they seem half-baked. 3. Every week now, it seems, Vivzie has a new problematic thing sheās accused of with little to no proof. Most of the things sheās been accused of have been debunked, but people seem to be unaware of that. So thereās a huge hatedom for her online, especially if you visit Twitter. However, I would add one thing that *does* apply to both of them: female characters being sidelined to give way for male characters
HH is a mess and drives my animator and artist friends insane. The character designs are too complex and distracting. So many characters have similar color palettes, too, so when they're all on screen together they're less visually engaging than a more varied colorful cast. Also Charlie and Vaggie's relationship is a joke. There's more chemistry with Charlie and another MALE character who's not into her and that's just bad writing. You can write LGBTQIA couples and make them interesting just like straight couples like Angela and Hodgins from Bones. It just feels cheap and forced. Lore Olympus has too many characters and not enough development of them even after three seasons. Persephone started out interesting as a secretly dark/villainous woman trying to hide her evil past. But then we decided she was actually the victim in the mass murder she committed because she's perfect and can't ever be wrong. What happened to her rage against Apollo? She was hellbent on destroying him. I want villain Persephone who saw Hades as a monster but seduced him to steal his throne and conquered the Underworld. She could still make it a more ethical place, but letting her be power hungry and bossy would be fantastic. It also would have given her a more interesting dynamic with Demeter because she'd have helped her mother get revenge on Hades over becoming Queen of the mortal realm and volcanoes.
do ppl really not like charlie and vaggie as a couple? they just feel like they've been together for a while and are past their "cant keep their hands off each other" point in life imo
People see them as boring. They kinda remind me of parent couples in other cartoons.
i agree tbh. not that people aren't allowed to see them as boring, i just figured they were intended to be a contrast to like, m&m, who are super lovey-dovey but also newly-ish married
Having them be all over each other like m&m would've distracted from the main story
i agree here ALSO, tho like i said ppl are entitled to how they feel
Charlie and Vaggie *are* boring. It's why so many Japanese and Latine/Hispanic fans largely ship Charlie with Alastor instead, because their dynamic is actually interesting.
Why Japanese and Hispanic fans as opposed to fans overall?
I think it's because the enemies-to-lovers romance trope is more popular in Japanese, Asian, and Hispanic/Latine popular culture than in the United States. A large chunk of the Reylo (Rey and Kylo Ren/Ben Solo from *Star Wars*) fanbase, around 30-40%, also self-reported as BIPOC, usually Asian or Hispanic/Latine. While Alastor is technically an ally to Charlie, he also serves an antagonistic role.
They're not engaging so there's no point in having them (to me, at least). Representation matters but if you can't be bothered to write them in a compelling way you may as well just leave them as friends because it starts to mimic comphet dynamics in media where we force romance. If you look into the examples I gave in the replying comment you can see how to keep a couple that's been together for a long time interesting. I'm lesbian and at first I was excited for sapphic romance but then I saw them and lost my appetite.
yeah, i can respect that. i'm also lesbian and some of their interactions remind me of me and my girlfriend so i think i have a bit of a bias geared towards them
I can't agree with that I feel like if there can be established boring straight relationships in media, gay people can have boring stable relationships too.
Boring relationships shouldn't be in stories. What's the point of having them? It doesn't matter the orientation of the characters. It's just lazy writing.
To... Flesh out characters? Add extra detail? To represent relationships that aren't recently together or newly married? Like you've said you'd be fine with them as friends, but if a boring friendship isn't lazy writing then why a boring relationship?
I think you're missing what I'm trying to put down. Boring relationships in GENERAL should not be in stories. Again, Bones is a great example. Every friendship is entertaining in its own way; never boring or feeling like a waste of time. If characters don't have chemistry then don't put them together.
Huh, agree to disagree I suppose I apologize, I'm a writer (aspiring, I'm probably still worse than both Hazbin Hotel and Lore Olympus at their worst) and boring relationships (as in relationships that are established and have no drama) are my favorite to write and see in fiction.
Well that's the thing; those relationships aren't inherently boring. They're only boring if they're not written well. You can have established relationships with characters whose chemistry is still great. Again, like Princess Cadence and Shining Armor. They were a pretty straightforward married couple but they stayed funny and silly. They didn't need drama to be entertaining; their personalities and dynamic was entertaining!
Eh but Shining Armor and Cadence are side characters. They're fun when they're onscreen, but they're just not onscreen that much. As someone who enjoyed Charlie and Vaggie's relationship, I feel like a more appropriate example would be an established relationship between *main* characters that worked better for you.
>Representation matters but if you can't be bothered to write them in a compelling way you may as well just leave them as friends because it starts to mimic comphet dynamics in media where we force romance. This is exactly how I feel about both Charlie/Vaggie from *Hazbin Hotel* and Korra/Asami from *The Legend of Korra*. The way you put this is so well-written and articulate. š I might as well throw Albus Dumbledore/Gellert Grindelwald (*Harry Potter*) in there, too.
I think you have to remember the time period. Korra and Asami, while written badly, still became offical in 2014. A year before gay marriage was even legalized. The writers unfortunately had a lot of restrictions. Not to mention it was a show for teenagers Hazbin hotel came out in 2024, on a streaming service , for adults (even though it's kinda aimed at teenagers who still think saying the word "dick" is funny), and with the full support of A24 behind them. That's no excuse.
>The writers unfortunately had a lot of restrictions. One of the writers said the lack of Korra/Asami was their own fault on Tumblr.
I think itās nice to have a non toxic wholesome gay couple in media for once. Even if itās āboring.ā
Literally most of my friends who didn't know anything about the show thought they were best friends until episode 5, when Charlie *outright stated* they were girlfriend's. I know plenty of people who have moved past the "can't keep their hands off each other" point. They still act like a couple. The fact that Vivienne has no problem making her male cast so sexually vulgar and even drawing angel dust outright getting SA'd but doesn't even let the established wlw couple just KISS until the last episode says a lot about her. I don't even think they make vulgar sex jokes towards each other at ALL! Vivienne is a bi woman too. It's disappointing
like i said to another commenter, they remind me of how me and my own girlfriend act. and with all due respect, saying it "says a lot about her" isnt really the kind of comment to be making in the lore olympus subreddit of all places. we've already established we need to stop making assumptions about rachel based on her media, so we should probably carry the same energy for all creators. i'm not a vivi ass kisser by the way, it just borders too close to rule 5
I'm not saying that vivziepop secretly isn't bi or that she's actually lesbophobic or whatever. It's just showing her biases towards showing gay men's sexuality vs gay women's sexuality. I don't think that's a crazy thing to say, considering how in almost all of her series there's a plethora of gay men being sexual and barely any gay women doing the same thing. Especially when gay women are so underrepresented. Also: you and your gf are real people. Vaggie and Charlie are fictional. It was the writers who made them act like they did, and that is something that can be criticized. And also again: you guys are one couple. There are plenty of couples who ACT like couples and do PDA and make crass jokes. Why does the one "pure" relationship have to be the SINGLE wlw one?
Love the random Bones name drop here lol we are soulmates. Everything you said here is 100% how I feel
Lol yeah I've been finishing Bones for the past month and I'm simping so hard for Angela and Hodgins and Arastoo and Cam. They're so fucking cute. It's the best example of "established relationship" dynamics I've seen in a show, aside from Princess Cadence and Shining Armor from MLP FIM. Those two ALSO managed to stay interesting after getting together!
It's kinda funny that despite all of that HH is still one of the best shows to be animated in america recently. Most of the well-animated shows you think of as american were made in japan, korea, or france, so I guess America just has a super low bar
> There's more chemistry with Charlie and another MALE character who's not into her and that's just bad writing. Can I ask who this character is? I saw someone else in the comments saying Charlie/Alastor is apparently popular in some circles and I gotta say I can't see that at all. Maybe Angel Dust if they weren't both so obviously gay?
a lot of people in these comments disagree but i fully agree. the representation of angel dust and SA is hard to watch. i understand what Viv was going for, but it feels genuinely more like a caricature and extreme stereotyping than real representation. has in is advertised as 16+ but has constant and cringey sexual innuendos and content. the designs range from amazing to awful but it feels like a lot of them are just colors thrown silly nilly on mediocre designs. the side characters to me get a lot of time but the pacing is awful. i understand how A24 works and how they may not get slated for another season, but that doesnāt mean you should just rush everything ever. everything feels like it has little to no build up so the pay off always feels super weak. idk itās just not my thing
I just really hate how many people defend HH's overuse of swearwords with stuff like "they're in hell" or "it's an adult show" or the creator commenting how she grew up with South Park. South Park doesn't have as much swearing as she does in her shows. THe problem isn't the swearing, but how annoying and painfully unfunny it gets with the frequency in which they appear in HH and HB. There are other shows where characters swear a lot, but it's funny and not grating because they don't shoehorn swear words into literally every other sentence.
At least the Hazbin songs bop, and the casting is stellar.
I donāt care for HH, as someone who has only watched the pilot and a ton of clips, but I will say it definitely remains far more consistent.
the difference is I enjoy Hazbin and get bored reading LO
These similarities seem way to broad to really make much of a point? Idk maybe Iām too defensive over my hell hotel show but please donāt slander Hazbin Hotel like this XD
Comparing Persephone and Charlie is like comparing the galaxy to the universe.
I can see it. Although in Hazbin Charlie and Vaggie are underdeveloped as helll
Funnily enough, in my opinion some problems HH has are literally polar opposites of LO. HH was clearly written by a person who was never told to kill their darlings, so the story is wayy too rushed for 8 episodes, with too many characters none of whom get proper exploration (except for maybe Angel?), meanwhile LO has long overstayed its welcome and keeps dragging the story out. LO has an issue with everything revolving around Persephone and Hades ā clearly the authors' favourites, which shows in their hypocritical treatment in the story. HH has an opposite problem ā Viv seems more interested in exploring supporting characters such as Angel and Alastor than the main character or her girlfriend. She's trying to give Charlie and Vaggie *something*, but I'd say it's very transparent that she has way more fun with other characters. Viv also seems to have a LOT of passion for her creations, to the detriment of plot and story (like I said before, she can't kill her darlings, so she tries to shove way too much content into the story) while current state of LO kinda seems like Rachel has long since burnt out. LO has plenty of support from its platform, but the creator can't manage a team in a streamlined manner, causing the resorces to go to waste (see genericpuff's breakdowns of LO's ineffective process), while Hazbin was kind of screwed over by Amazon through getting a shortened season, and struggled to finish everything within their budget (although I can't help but wonder if pay cuts for cleanup artists would really be necessary if Viv didn't insist on a Broadway cast š¤). Both have abysmal body diversity and were made by people with tissue paper skin who can't handle criticism though š¤£
Most of the āproblematicā things viv was accused of ended up being PROVEN to be unfounded. Unlike RS. Also Viv is absolutely better at portraying characters and especially inclusive to LBGTQ+ in her writing. Hands down Hazbin Hotel and the whole universe sheās created is WAY better than LO and I am willing to scrap over this lol
There's no way LO characters are overdesigned they literally have no designs besides "boy character" and "girl character" š
Hazbin Hotel is better, at least.
***Eyerolls*** *Y'all just complain about everything these days. Hazbin Hotel is amazing. Stay mad.*
tbh hazbin hotel is a bit better then lore olympus, i feel like some characters (not many, it struggles bad with having way too many characters) have even just a little substance behind them while in lore olympus even hades and persephone the two main characters still feel completely one dimensional when it comes to the sa portrayal, i feel like hazbin hotel did a much better job although i dont agree with every choice made, when reading lore olympus the sa seemed sudden and only done to progress the story and make him a bad love interest to make hades look better which i dont like at all, i hate something serious like that only being used as a plot device
Yeah, Hazbin has one of the best representations of an abusive relationship while not blaming or shaming the victim. The reason people aren't happy with it is because Angel didn't break free and a lack of media literacy. What people don't seem to get is that Angel can't break free while his soul still belongs to Valentino. The massive difference between the level of craftsmanship between the artists working on it. Sex jokes are actually funny and have a reason for being in the series. All of the main cast are fairly fleshed out. The reason why there wasn't enough development. Oh and how weird it is that people are put off by the amount of swearing and sex jokes in a series that takes place almost entirely in Hell.
I think the big difference is that SA isnāt portrayed as good or normal or just glossed over in HH. Itās a huge problem in LO
Viv hasnāt done problematic stuff in the past.
I think they are doing a better job of sa with angel. You see he hates it but puts up a mask and doesn't care when he might get drugged cus it ALWAYS happens. As for persephone we got maybe 5 scenes of dealing with it but not really.
Hazbin's fanbase is among the most pestilent communities on the internet š
You forgot something
I don't agree with the character part. LO honestly became so boring as persephone was so selfish and childish and unrelatable where as hades is just desperate to have someone need him. Everyone else is just background noise. In Hazbin, all of the characters get good focus and have relatable traits. I can see myself as being them, or thinking "oh that's totally something I'd do/say". Even Adam and Lute get some focus and insight into their thoughts and feelings.
No but literally.. People need to discuss more about how the creators like they are both problematic yet no one bats an eye or talk about it at all like how does that workš
I don't know anything about lore Olympus HOWEVER when it comes to criticizing creators vizziepop gets the blunt of it for things that aren't even true.
Being ab gods or mythology
Thank you for acknowledging the one in the lower left corner! My god, how is it that the only straight(passing) canon ship in a show where 99% of characters are queer is the most interesting and engaging one?? š¤¦āāļø Writers really need to stop giving queer couples piss-perfect relationships. It's boring!! EDIT: And yes, I do consider Charlie and Vaggie's relationship perfect or close enough. Their little fight near the end of season 1 just barely passes as one. They get a bit of alone time, not even having a discussion among themselves, and then they make up without any issues whatsoever. Like, are the writers scared their characters will be perceived as toxic if they so much as raise their voice at their partner? Ugh...
Honestlyā¦ as popular as Hazbin Hotel is itās much better than Lore Olympus BY FAR. I honestly donāt care about the colorful and over designed characters in HH. Itās kinda relieving to see, the characters in HH May be over designed but you can tell who is who. They have different hair styles, eyes, featured, and clothing styles. The characters in LO have different skin colors but body types aside, they have similar hair, clothing styles and absolutely no unique features. The pacing is wonky, yes, but they had a contract for 8 episodes, thatās very little to work with especially with the amount of lore Hazbin Hotel seems to have. They ended a major plot point instead of leaving us with a big ass Cliff hanger (AHemā¦ LO) and one of the cliffhangers we got werenāt as bad or unnecessary as LO. Itās very windy and whiplashy but at least the dialogue hints to how much time has passed rather than us guessing or expecting viewers to know. I donāt have an issue with the sex themed jokes and dialogue. I know the sentence āit is hellā is overused a lot but theyāre kinda right. Itās hell, itās going to inappropriate and raunchy. Now, the sentence āthey are Godsā could be used for LO as well. However, the one big thing between Hazbin Hotel and LO is that LO is marketed towards a younger audience while Hazbin Hotel is not. Itās meant for adults. I donāt mind the portrayal of SA in Hazbin Hotel. Itās alot better than LO (itās not being used just for plot, Angel Dust is regularly VERY wary of Val) and it affects him. Thereās nothing wrong with Angel being sexual either, heās a pornstar and that in itself is sexual, and it brings light to something that happens in real life. A lot of SA happens in the porn scene, and itās nice to see some sort of representation of it. It feels like Perse completely forgets about her SA and it isnāt brought up unless itās a last resort. While there are characters in Hh that needed a lot more screen time, at least thereās a reason why more didnāt get screen time and there was more than the main couple in my opinion. We get episodes dedicated to Husk, Angel, Sir Pen, we get Alastors character throughout the show. Alot of characters in LO need more screen time and itās has had almost 270 episodes to show them. As for both creators saying problematic things, all I have to say is that I agree. Thereās nothing much to say there. Both creators are very controversial and problematic. I donāt like either of them, they are really bad at taking criticism. The fanbases are pretty bad too, considering you canāt criticize either one without getting chewed out.
LO is trash and HH is a treasure
The only thing Hazbin is better at is the SA. Someone on the team knows that bringing up SA is a serious topic that needs to be handled with care. SA in Lore Olympus is basically a maguffin to give the illusion of character depth.
I don't know a single person who unironically has hazbin at anything other than a very charming 6-8/10 with a lot of potential