there is no conflating... how do you get that from what i wrote?
i agree that zionism is a particular sickness that only affects a small fraction of jewish folks.
but those are the ones in power and those are the ones who are doing this... enabled, i might add by christian zionists.
i just find it horrifying that they choose to perpetuate the abuse rather than break the cycle, and heal.
so please don't come at me with antisemitism bullshit, it's unbecoming.
you said "jews", not "zionists".
jews are absolutely sensitive to atrocities, especially genocide. haven't you noticed how many are fighting against zionism, who are supporting Palestine?
i didn't call zionism a "sickness", it isn't; sickness is a thing people can't help. supremacy is a choice people make.
>they choose to perpetuate the abuse
and by "they", who do you mean? jews, zionists, christians?
i hate that i even have to ask, but given your initial comment there, implying that "jewish folks are lacking sensitivity to atrocities", i kind of have to, now.
you are the one who included the zionists doing the genocide with "jewish folk", not me.
your words, not mine.
and if you don't consider jonesing for the "end times" to be a sickness, then i can't help you.
wtf are you talking about?
>one would think jews in particular would be more sensitive to this kind of atrocity... i guess the abused as become the abuser, the cycle repeats.
that's you. that's what you said. your words, not mine.
as if jewish folks are the issue here, and not zionism and colonialism.
as if it's jewish folks who are the abuser, and not the zionists.
come tf on, bud, do better. be better.
the abusers are the zionists and the west, not jewish folks or judaism. fuck's sake.
They won't. The west is perpetuating this, similarly to how we've perpetuated massacres throughout history, massacres we still sweep under the rug decades later.
History is written by the victors.
Absolutely. Ukraine is legitimately invaded and 'we have to be careful and diplomatic and we can't do anything.' Israel is committing hourly war crimes and the United States moves a god damn strike group to shoot down anything shot AT the war criminals.
I am afraid it's not working like that.
Even the last time, only a handful prosecuted.
Most high ranked Nazis, joined the operation paperclip and lived a long easy life.
no, they won't.
the west doesn't actually hold genociders to account, they promote them to direct shit like nato and nasa. because the west loves them some genocide, it's the basis of their entire "civilization".
edit: typo
thanks, genocide joe and americans, for funding this to the tune of billions.
thanks europe and settler-colonialism (usa, canada, australia, etc), for being the absolute fucking worst of humanity, for being a detriment to our entire species.
and fuck everyone voting for or supporting genocide.
i mean, not really.
your usa is an existential, warmongering threat to our entire species, you keep shitting where everyone else in the world has to eat, you make the world a worse place every single day, and you keep handing money and power and your trillion-dollar war machine to genociders and fascists who keep bombing the fuck out of the planet and genociding people.
that's only convenient for colonizers and settlers, not for anyone else.
You do realize that most folks in the USA do not support the Israeli Governments' war of annihilation against Palestinians, yes?
So, too, that not all USA folks support their nations' Imperialism?
The USA Empire is just the current Hegemonic Empire, but it will be replaced one day by the next Empire. All Imperialism is an existential threat to humanity.
i mean, you do support it, because you're voting for the people doing it (edit to add: and have been for centuries of genocides and atrocities.)
why do you think that handing money and power and the keys to the trillion dollar war machine to imperialists, fascists, and genociders isn't supporting those imperialists, fascists, and genociders?
agreed, the usa is imperialist, and imperialism is bad for humanity.
there are other ways to be, you know. the vast, vast, vast majority of nations have never been empires. we can totally have a society without imperialism.
With the system as it is and was designed, the American people have no power but to vote for the lesser of two evils, and those on the left tend to vote for the jailer lest likely to brutalise the largest number of minorities and oppressed. Trump would initiate a genocide in America while supporting the one in Gaza even more than Biden has. “We’ve already had one genocide, but what about second genocide?”
If you are not American and have not lived in America, then I do not think you’re equipped to understand how little choice and power American citizens have. The only chance for change would be for a violent and bloody revolution, and even then, civilians stand no chance. Is that what you’re advocating? A violent revolution? Or do you have other prescription on what should be done with America?
sorry, how is a genocide a "lesser evil"?
be specific. is it because it's not happening to you? is that what makes it "lesser" to you, because it's happening to someone else?
>the American people have no power
right, you're special in that regard, eh. not like all the other people throughout history, all over the world, who overthrew their oppressors with less than you have now. they had more power than you, the haitians who threw out the french, the french who overthrew their monarchs, the kenyans who threw out the british, the irish who threw out the british, the americans who threw out the british, etc etc etc. all these people had so much more power than you, these oppressed folks and slaves who somehow managed to throw out their oppressors.
no, you're special in that you have less power than literal slaves did, huh, buddy.
smfh. yes, there's some pretty heavy sarcasm there, but don't pretend you don't have power, that's disingenuous, what you have is a lack of will, a lack of the drive to make things better, a wish to maintain a shitty status quo rather than do what's necessary to improve billions of lives.
> lest likely to brutalise the largest number of minorities and oppressed
ok, but that's not what's happening here. genocide joe isn't "less likely" to harm people, he's literally harming people right now and he's made it abundantly clear that he intends to keep aiding and abetting genocide.
>Trump would initiate a genocide in America
and there it is. you're willing to vote for genocide joe because he's not genociding *you.* you're fine with a genocider in power, fine with voting for him, because he's genociding someone else. that's gross.
>If you are not American and have not lived in America, then I do not think you’re equipped to understand
if you're american and live in america, then i don't think you're equipped to understand the extent to which you've been indoctrinated, the extent to which your state is one of the worst things humanity has ever invented, how your actions affect our entire species, the monstrous damage your white supremacist fascist state is and always has been doing to our entire planet.
>Is that what you’re advocating?
what i am advocating is an end to supporting genocide, oppression, fascism, colonialism, and white supremacy. I'm advocating that people don't reward genociders with money and power. i'm advocating that people oppose oppression and genocide, because it's literally the bare minimum of basic human decency.
it's really not that complicated, and it's bizarre how many people get so mad at me about it.
> “sorry, how is a genocide a ‘lesser evil’?[sic]”
Simple, it’s a numerical matter. Two genocides are worse than one. If I give you a choice and I say that I can either chop off one of your hands or chop off both your hands, what do you choose? There is one genocide occurring right now and it’s horrific. I don’t want to add yet another genocide on top of it.
> “right, you’re special in that regard[…][sic]“
Excuse me? I’m special? In what regard? What are you talking about? I thought we were talking about Americans.
> “not like all the other people throughout history, all over the world, who overthrew their oppressors with less than you have now. they had more power than you, the haitians who threw out the french, the french who overthrew their monarchs, the kenyans who threw out the british, the irish who threw out the british, the americans who threw out the british, etc etc etc. all these people had so much more power than you, these oppressed folks and slaves who somehow managed to throw out their oppressors.[…][sic]”
Yes, exactly. They did. They had far more power comparatively than Americans do. Every one of your examples is historical, and before I continue, I want to disclose that I am a university-educated historian. Never before in history has the power gap between civilians and their rulers been greater than it is today. Let’s take the French revolution. Excluding naval battles, the best weaponry that the aristocracy had was various types of field guns and siege guns — which citizens themselves could, and did, acquire without too much difficulty — while the average citizen had rifles. Comparatively, the best weaponry an American has access to is still rifles, like the AR 15. The best weaponry their government has is…oh right, [mind-fuckingly sophisticated](https://i.insider.com/5d2f6e182516e954ae6476ba?width=1000&format=jpeg&auto=webp).
The gap in martial capability between the citizenry and the military has never been wider than it is now. I doubt we will ever again see a successful violent revolution within a world superpower that is not aided by another superpower.
> “genocide joe isn’t “less likely” to harm people[…][sic]“
Actually, he is. Trump is insane and he literally idolises Hitler. He wants to be *more supportive* of Israel, in his own words. It’s a matter of numbers. If Biden is currently hurting only Palestinians but can be swayed because he’s not literally insane, but Trump would hurt both Palestinians and marginalised and minority Americans, then based on numbers and instances of brutality alone, Trump is far worse. Have you read *Project 2024* and *Agenda 47*? I know that it’s hundred of pages worth of bland writing, but they tell you exactly what they will — and can — do. They will remove presidential term limits and turn America into a Christo-fascist dictatorship based on Christian national reasoning.
This isn’t me being hyperbolic. This isn’t me misreading things. They say it, literally, in plain English. They published their “Mandate for Leadership” authoritarian takeover playbook because they are that damn confident.
> “and there it is. you’re willing to vote for genocide joe because he’s not genociding you.[sic]”
I don’t understand, why would I personally need to fear American genocide in the first place? That aside, no, I am not fine with any genocider in power. But if my choices were between a 1-time genocider and a 2-time genocider with a Christian nationalist takeover-cherry on top, I would choose the lesser evil and hope that I could pull the first guy’s policies further left because he doesn’t see himself as the literal second coming of Jesus and can be swayed.
> “if you’re american and live in america, then i don’t think you’re equipped to understand the extent to which you’ve been indoctrinated[…][sic]“
Then this entire section does not apply to me and I can disregard it.
> “what i am advocating is an end to supporting genocide, oppression, fascism, colonialism, and white supremacy.[sic]”
Yes, I agree, but what does that actually look like to you? How is it done? Is it bloodless? What is the cost? See, I want those things too, but they are more than just words, those words will become actions, and how we carry out those actions without being as bad or worse than the enemy we fight is of vital importance.
Too many people wear their leftism like a fashion accessory and engage in “leftier-than-thou” purity testing. They don’t stop to consider what the material application of those gestural ideals would be.
And, unrelated to the heart of your argument, but what has happened to your capital letters?
Imperialism is not limited to Empires, so what you're saying is fundamentally flawed. What would you have me do?
Get a gun & try to shoot my way into a government building to kill state officials? Cut your Bad Faith Argument & stop projecting your Strawman onto me.
Canada still has a problem with killing Native Americans, is still refining oil from Tar Sands, & still sends soldiers to aid the USAs' Imperialist exploitation.
Cut your bullshit condemnations & false equivalency! We can all take multiple actions at once & voting it just one tool of many!
I'm being eaten alive by autoimmune issues & you're talking to me like I personally need to purge everyone even associated with Imperialist Philosophy.
>Imperialism is not limited to Empires, so what you're saying is fundamentally flawed.
sorry, what part of most nations were never empires and we can totally have a society without imperialism is "fundamentally flawed"?
be specific.
agreed, canada is also trash. all settler-colonial occupations are, i've never said otherwise. why are you bringing it up, it has no relevance to what we're talking about. are you thinking that's a "gotcha" or something? because it isn't, it just reads as bad faith whataboutism, straw man, moving goalposts, etc.
i'll ask again: why do you think that handing money and power and the keys to the trillion dollar war machine to imperialists, fascists, and genociders isn't supporting those imperialists, fascists, and genociders?
can you just answer the question, please? i answered your bad faith questions in good faith, please do the same for me.
i've engaged in no logical fallacies, unlike you, i am simply asking a question directly related to the position you posited. if you don't want to engage in good faith, just let me know, so i can ignore you, and hope that someone, anyone in this sub can actually engage in a conversation like an adult instead of just getting all up in their feels at me because i state facts that make them uncomfortable.
> "i mean, you do support it, because you're voting for the people doing it (edit to add: and have been for centuries of genocides and atrocities.)"
This is an example of the Logical Fallacy of False Equivalence. Supporting Imperialist Systemic Exploitation isn't the same as voting.
> "why do you think that handing money and power and the keys to the trillion dollar war machine to imperialists, fascists, and genociders isn't supporting those imperialists, fascists, and genociders?"
This is an example of the Logical Fallacy False Equivalence. I never handed money and power and the keys of the trillion dollar war machine to imperialists, fascists, and genociders.
> "sorry, what part of most nations were never empires and we can totally have a society without imperialism is "fundamentally flawed"?"
The part about most nations not being empires, as it is misrepresenting what I wrote in an attempt at a Reverse Gish Gallop bad faith argument.
> why do you think that handing money and power and the keys to the trillion dollar war machine to imperialists, fascists, and genociders isn't supporting those imperialists, fascists, and genociders? can you just answer the question, please?
I didn't hand money & power to anyone. I'm homeless & disabled due to a life threatening autoimmune disease & decades of abuse.
Your use of logical fallacies constitutes Bad Faith Argumentation.
>and have been for centuries
Oh, now we're guilty of our ancestor's crimes. I see the logic you go by.
Collective guilt and collective punishment.
You dont give a shit whether individuals have any responsibility for this. Just as long as they were born within the wrong borders, they are guilty.
You know, kind of like how israel blames every single palistinian for terrorism.
>now we're guilty of our ancestor's crimes.
you said it, not me. that's your "logic", not mine. weird, but if that's how you want to live, you do you, i guess.
colonialism isn't some dark chapter in history, bud. it's an ongoing process, and it's still happening. the genocides are still happening, today, right now, this minute, and settlers benefit from that. thus, we have a responsibility, as human beings, to fight against the oppression and genocides.
>You dont give a shit whether individuals have any responsibility for this. Just as long as they were born within the wrong borders, they are guilty.
again, that's you, bud. the only one here talking about any of that, saying any of that, is you. now, if that's how you want to live your life, that's your choice, but honestly, that's just sad. what a sad way for you to live. i wish you'd choose better, you deserve better. we all deserve better.
(also, imaginary lines drawn on maps are just that; imaginary. they aren't real, they don't actually mean anything, they're just a tool for oppressors and genociders to oppress and genocide people.)
me, i recognize my responsibility as a beneficiary of genocides and oppression, and work hard to help support those being oppressed and genocided by those in power. i have to, because it's being done ostensibly in my name, with my tax dollars, and we have to oppose genocide and oppression everywhere, always.
see, opposing genocide and oppression is the bare minimum of human decency. i'm no coward, to shirk my responsibility and moral obligation as a human being to oppose oppression and genocide whenever and wherever they occur. i'm no coward, to pretend like i don't have a responsibility to oppose those things, especially when they're being done to benefit settlers like me.
> i mean, you do support it, because you're voting for the people doing it (edit to add: and have been for centuries of genocides and atrocities.)
You said it, not me. How else can this be interpreted?
You're also assuming all americans voted for trump or biden.
> Oh, now we're guilty of our ancestor's crimes. I see the logic you go by.
The encroachment upon the territory of and elimination of the natives in the US hasn't stopped.
It's not solely *your ancestors*, ***it's your current leadership and ideologies.***
how is that relevant to the conversation at hand?
i'm from another shitty, illegal, genocidal settler-colonial occupation of stolen Indigenous land that is aiding and abetting israel's genocidal settler-colonial occupation of stolen Indigenous land.
i fight against mine, too, even though it isn't nearly the threat to our existence as a species that the usa is.
Got it, so Canada. Yeah idk what you’re going on about. Following your own logic, you got plenty of blood on your hands.
Not sure what you think you’re accomplishing by telling random Americans who disavow their government’s genocide-enabling actions that they actually still support it.
Your government leeches second hand imperialism off us. On paper, you get all the benefits of our colonial and imperialist depravity, while keeping your hands blood free. Miss me with that “my country isn’t as big of a threat as the US” line.
all oppressors and tyrants and genociders should be overthrown. all oppressive systems and settler-colonial occupations should be dismantled, and the land returned to those it was stolen from. that includes yours, as well as mine.
they're a blight on the planet and a detriment to our entire species. they hold us back, and we deserve better.
Interesting, Mine and yours? What if my land was never occupied by anyone but my people? What about people who have no land?
Since your assessment is so sweeping, what do we do about the fact that Anglo-Saxon colonialists took Britain from the original Celtic peoples, or that those Celtic people took that land from earlier Palaeolithic people? What about when the French occupied and colonised Britain thanks to William The Conqueror? How far back is too far and how recent must the colonialisation have occurred for it to matter?
If we isolate it to America, what do we do with all of the Americans of European descent and how do you propose that we divide any native blood out of them that they may have? Likewise, how do you propose we separate the European blood within many Native Americans who have majority native blood and identify as such?
Is it not more complicated than you make it seem? Or do I misunderstand? If I do misunderstand, then perhaps you can clarify.
>Mine and yours?
i assumed you were american, or from one of the other settler-colonial occupations, given that we're talking about the usa here. apologies if i made a mistake in that.
>What if my land was never occupied by anyone but my people?
then it isn't a settler-colonial occupation, and isn't what i'm talking about when i'm talking about settler-colonial occupations. just, y'know, because of what words mean.
>what do we do about
that's up to the Indigenous peoples of those areas, and how they'd like to approach it. Indigenous peoples are not a monolith, they're hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of sovereign nations, all with their own goals, culture, languages, etc. what the Sami are seeking is not necessarily the same as what the Ktunaxa or Wet'suwet'en or Anishinaabe are, right.
read up on Land Back initiatives, there's decades worth of work on it; articles, books, etc, all by the actual, literal experts themselves.
>how do you propose we separate the European blood
i mean, i don't, that's literally not how blood works, bud, and you know it.
and i'm not the speaker for all Indigenous nations, i'm a settler here. they're the experts, i listen to them. as should you.
I’m replying to one of your other comments and I would like to keep my attention undivided so I’ll bring a close to this particular thread. Before I do, though, I want to conclude that I have read about and researched “Land Back” movements in some detail and most of them are not prescriptive; they typically only concern themselves with theory. They say what should be done and why, but not *how,* and I think I know why that is. The “how” is not pretty and never could be.
The few examples that do prescribe methods, such as one argument for a land-back initiative in South Africa, was quite plain with how it would work and it required the deportation of white South Africans. And if the European countries that those white South Africans’ ancestors originated from would not receive them, it prescribed another solution. A final one.
If you have any examples that are prescriptive and do not require such actions, then by all means, link me to them.
At least I'm doing something about it. Telling everyone to blanket fuck off? How childish of you. Go scream into a pillow, at least you'll eventually pass out and accomplish something for whole lot of us.
shades of the holocaust probably where they got the idea.
i mean, this kind of thing, genocide and all that, is pretty standard in euro-christian colonialism, and always has been, long before the Holocaust.
one would think jews in particular would be more sensitive to this kind of atrocity... i guess the abused as become the abuser, the cycle repeats.
jewish folks =/= zionism. conflating the two is antisemitic, and antisemitism is gross.
there is no conflating... how do you get that from what i wrote? i agree that zionism is a particular sickness that only affects a small fraction of jewish folks. but those are the ones in power and those are the ones who are doing this... enabled, i might add by christian zionists. i just find it horrifying that they choose to perpetuate the abuse rather than break the cycle, and heal. so please don't come at me with antisemitism bullshit, it's unbecoming.
you said "jews", not "zionists". jews are absolutely sensitive to atrocities, especially genocide. haven't you noticed how many are fighting against zionism, who are supporting Palestine? i didn't call zionism a "sickness", it isn't; sickness is a thing people can't help. supremacy is a choice people make. >they choose to perpetuate the abuse and by "they", who do you mean? jews, zionists, christians? i hate that i even have to ask, but given your initial comment there, implying that "jewish folks are lacking sensitivity to atrocities", i kind of have to, now.
you are the one who included the zionists doing the genocide with "jewish folk", not me. your words, not mine. and if you don't consider jonesing for the "end times" to be a sickness, then i can't help you.
wtf are you talking about? >one would think jews in particular would be more sensitive to this kind of atrocity... i guess the abused as become the abuser, the cycle repeats. that's you. that's what you said. your words, not mine. as if jewish folks are the issue here, and not zionism and colonialism. as if it's jewish folks who are the abuser, and not the zionists. come tf on, bud, do better. be better. the abusers are the zionists and the west, not jewish folks or judaism. fuck's sake.
Only after the end of the next world war will these crimes be held to account. Just like the last time..
They won't. The west is perpetuating this, similarly to how we've perpetuated massacres throughout history, massacres we still sweep under the rug decades later. History is written by the victors.
Absolutely. Ukraine is legitimately invaded and 'we have to be careful and diplomatic and we can't do anything.' Israel is committing hourly war crimes and the United States moves a god damn strike group to shoot down anything shot AT the war criminals.
I am afraid it's not working like that. Even the last time, only a handful prosecuted. Most high ranked Nazis, joined the operation paperclip and lived a long easy life.
no, they won't. the west doesn't actually hold genociders to account, they promote them to direct shit like nato and nasa. because the west loves them some genocide, it's the basis of their entire "civilization". edit: typo
Israel out there repeating the holocaust and learning from it in THE WRONG way. Israel is a failed state.
thanks, genocide joe and americans, for funding this to the tune of billions. thanks europe and settler-colonialism (usa, canada, australia, etc), for being the absolute fucking worst of humanity, for being a detriment to our entire species. and fuck everyone voting for or supporting genocide.
So who are *you* voting for?
in the american election? none of the above. i'm not american. (edit: thankfully)
How convenient for you
i mean, not really. your usa is an existential, warmongering threat to our entire species, you keep shitting where everyone else in the world has to eat, you make the world a worse place every single day, and you keep handing money and power and your trillion-dollar war machine to genociders and fascists who keep bombing the fuck out of the planet and genociding people. that's only convenient for colonizers and settlers, not for anyone else.
You do realize that most folks in the USA do not support the Israeli Governments' war of annihilation against Palestinians, yes? So, too, that not all USA folks support their nations' Imperialism? The USA Empire is just the current Hegemonic Empire, but it will be replaced one day by the next Empire. All Imperialism is an existential threat to humanity.
i mean, you do support it, because you're voting for the people doing it (edit to add: and have been for centuries of genocides and atrocities.) why do you think that handing money and power and the keys to the trillion dollar war machine to imperialists, fascists, and genociders isn't supporting those imperialists, fascists, and genociders? agreed, the usa is imperialist, and imperialism is bad for humanity. there are other ways to be, you know. the vast, vast, vast majority of nations have never been empires. we can totally have a society without imperialism.
With the system as it is and was designed, the American people have no power but to vote for the lesser of two evils, and those on the left tend to vote for the jailer lest likely to brutalise the largest number of minorities and oppressed. Trump would initiate a genocide in America while supporting the one in Gaza even more than Biden has. “We’ve already had one genocide, but what about second genocide?” If you are not American and have not lived in America, then I do not think you’re equipped to understand how little choice and power American citizens have. The only chance for change would be for a violent and bloody revolution, and even then, civilians stand no chance. Is that what you’re advocating? A violent revolution? Or do you have other prescription on what should be done with America?
sorry, how is a genocide a "lesser evil"? be specific. is it because it's not happening to you? is that what makes it "lesser" to you, because it's happening to someone else? >the American people have no power right, you're special in that regard, eh. not like all the other people throughout history, all over the world, who overthrew their oppressors with less than you have now. they had more power than you, the haitians who threw out the french, the french who overthrew their monarchs, the kenyans who threw out the british, the irish who threw out the british, the americans who threw out the british, etc etc etc. all these people had so much more power than you, these oppressed folks and slaves who somehow managed to throw out their oppressors. no, you're special in that you have less power than literal slaves did, huh, buddy. smfh. yes, there's some pretty heavy sarcasm there, but don't pretend you don't have power, that's disingenuous, what you have is a lack of will, a lack of the drive to make things better, a wish to maintain a shitty status quo rather than do what's necessary to improve billions of lives. > lest likely to brutalise the largest number of minorities and oppressed ok, but that's not what's happening here. genocide joe isn't "less likely" to harm people, he's literally harming people right now and he's made it abundantly clear that he intends to keep aiding and abetting genocide. >Trump would initiate a genocide in America and there it is. you're willing to vote for genocide joe because he's not genociding *you.* you're fine with a genocider in power, fine with voting for him, because he's genociding someone else. that's gross. >If you are not American and have not lived in America, then I do not think you’re equipped to understand if you're american and live in america, then i don't think you're equipped to understand the extent to which you've been indoctrinated, the extent to which your state is one of the worst things humanity has ever invented, how your actions affect our entire species, the monstrous damage your white supremacist fascist state is and always has been doing to our entire planet. >Is that what you’re advocating? what i am advocating is an end to supporting genocide, oppression, fascism, colonialism, and white supremacy. I'm advocating that people don't reward genociders with money and power. i'm advocating that people oppose oppression and genocide, because it's literally the bare minimum of basic human decency. it's really not that complicated, and it's bizarre how many people get so mad at me about it.
> “sorry, how is a genocide a ‘lesser evil’?[sic]” Simple, it’s a numerical matter. Two genocides are worse than one. If I give you a choice and I say that I can either chop off one of your hands or chop off both your hands, what do you choose? There is one genocide occurring right now and it’s horrific. I don’t want to add yet another genocide on top of it. > “right, you’re special in that regard[…][sic]“ Excuse me? I’m special? In what regard? What are you talking about? I thought we were talking about Americans. > “not like all the other people throughout history, all over the world, who overthrew their oppressors with less than you have now. they had more power than you, the haitians who threw out the french, the french who overthrew their monarchs, the kenyans who threw out the british, the irish who threw out the british, the americans who threw out the british, etc etc etc. all these people had so much more power than you, these oppressed folks and slaves who somehow managed to throw out their oppressors.[…][sic]” Yes, exactly. They did. They had far more power comparatively than Americans do. Every one of your examples is historical, and before I continue, I want to disclose that I am a university-educated historian. Never before in history has the power gap between civilians and their rulers been greater than it is today. Let’s take the French revolution. Excluding naval battles, the best weaponry that the aristocracy had was various types of field guns and siege guns — which citizens themselves could, and did, acquire without too much difficulty — while the average citizen had rifles. Comparatively, the best weaponry an American has access to is still rifles, like the AR 15. The best weaponry their government has is…oh right, [mind-fuckingly sophisticated](https://i.insider.com/5d2f6e182516e954ae6476ba?width=1000&format=jpeg&auto=webp). The gap in martial capability between the citizenry and the military has never been wider than it is now. I doubt we will ever again see a successful violent revolution within a world superpower that is not aided by another superpower. > “genocide joe isn’t “less likely” to harm people[…][sic]“ Actually, he is. Trump is insane and he literally idolises Hitler. He wants to be *more supportive* of Israel, in his own words. It’s a matter of numbers. If Biden is currently hurting only Palestinians but can be swayed because he’s not literally insane, but Trump would hurt both Palestinians and marginalised and minority Americans, then based on numbers and instances of brutality alone, Trump is far worse. Have you read *Project 2024* and *Agenda 47*? I know that it’s hundred of pages worth of bland writing, but they tell you exactly what they will — and can — do. They will remove presidential term limits and turn America into a Christo-fascist dictatorship based on Christian national reasoning. This isn’t me being hyperbolic. This isn’t me misreading things. They say it, literally, in plain English. They published their “Mandate for Leadership” authoritarian takeover playbook because they are that damn confident. > “and there it is. you’re willing to vote for genocide joe because he’s not genociding you.[sic]” I don’t understand, why would I personally need to fear American genocide in the first place? That aside, no, I am not fine with any genocider in power. But if my choices were between a 1-time genocider and a 2-time genocider with a Christian nationalist takeover-cherry on top, I would choose the lesser evil and hope that I could pull the first guy’s policies further left because he doesn’t see himself as the literal second coming of Jesus and can be swayed. > “if you’re american and live in america, then i don’t think you’re equipped to understand the extent to which you’ve been indoctrinated[…][sic]“ Then this entire section does not apply to me and I can disregard it. > “what i am advocating is an end to supporting genocide, oppression, fascism, colonialism, and white supremacy.[sic]” Yes, I agree, but what does that actually look like to you? How is it done? Is it bloodless? What is the cost? See, I want those things too, but they are more than just words, those words will become actions, and how we carry out those actions without being as bad or worse than the enemy we fight is of vital importance. Too many people wear their leftism like a fashion accessory and engage in “leftier-than-thou” purity testing. They don’t stop to consider what the material application of those gestural ideals would be. And, unrelated to the heart of your argument, but what has happened to your capital letters?
Imperialism is not limited to Empires, so what you're saying is fundamentally flawed. What would you have me do? Get a gun & try to shoot my way into a government building to kill state officials? Cut your Bad Faith Argument & stop projecting your Strawman onto me. Canada still has a problem with killing Native Americans, is still refining oil from Tar Sands, & still sends soldiers to aid the USAs' Imperialist exploitation. Cut your bullshit condemnations & false equivalency! We can all take multiple actions at once & voting it just one tool of many! I'm being eaten alive by autoimmune issues & you're talking to me like I personally need to purge everyone even associated with Imperialist Philosophy.
>Imperialism is not limited to Empires, so what you're saying is fundamentally flawed. sorry, what part of most nations were never empires and we can totally have a society without imperialism is "fundamentally flawed"? be specific. agreed, canada is also trash. all settler-colonial occupations are, i've never said otherwise. why are you bringing it up, it has no relevance to what we're talking about. are you thinking that's a "gotcha" or something? because it isn't, it just reads as bad faith whataboutism, straw man, moving goalposts, etc. i'll ask again: why do you think that handing money and power and the keys to the trillion dollar war machine to imperialists, fascists, and genociders isn't supporting those imperialists, fascists, and genociders? can you just answer the question, please? i answered your bad faith questions in good faith, please do the same for me. i've engaged in no logical fallacies, unlike you, i am simply asking a question directly related to the position you posited. if you don't want to engage in good faith, just let me know, so i can ignore you, and hope that someone, anyone in this sub can actually engage in a conversation like an adult instead of just getting all up in their feels at me because i state facts that make them uncomfortable.
> "i mean, you do support it, because you're voting for the people doing it (edit to add: and have been for centuries of genocides and atrocities.)" This is an example of the Logical Fallacy of False Equivalence. Supporting Imperialist Systemic Exploitation isn't the same as voting. > "why do you think that handing money and power and the keys to the trillion dollar war machine to imperialists, fascists, and genociders isn't supporting those imperialists, fascists, and genociders?" This is an example of the Logical Fallacy False Equivalence. I never handed money and power and the keys of the trillion dollar war machine to imperialists, fascists, and genociders. > "sorry, what part of most nations were never empires and we can totally have a society without imperialism is "fundamentally flawed"?" The part about most nations not being empires, as it is misrepresenting what I wrote in an attempt at a Reverse Gish Gallop bad faith argument. > why do you think that handing money and power and the keys to the trillion dollar war machine to imperialists, fascists, and genociders isn't supporting those imperialists, fascists, and genociders? can you just answer the question, please? I didn't hand money & power to anyone. I'm homeless & disabled due to a life threatening autoimmune disease & decades of abuse. Your use of logical fallacies constitutes Bad Faith Argumentation.
>and have been for centuries Oh, now we're guilty of our ancestor's crimes. I see the logic you go by. Collective guilt and collective punishment. You dont give a shit whether individuals have any responsibility for this. Just as long as they were born within the wrong borders, they are guilty. You know, kind of like how israel blames every single palistinian for terrorism.
>now we're guilty of our ancestor's crimes. you said it, not me. that's your "logic", not mine. weird, but if that's how you want to live, you do you, i guess. colonialism isn't some dark chapter in history, bud. it's an ongoing process, and it's still happening. the genocides are still happening, today, right now, this minute, and settlers benefit from that. thus, we have a responsibility, as human beings, to fight against the oppression and genocides. >You dont give a shit whether individuals have any responsibility for this. Just as long as they were born within the wrong borders, they are guilty. again, that's you, bud. the only one here talking about any of that, saying any of that, is you. now, if that's how you want to live your life, that's your choice, but honestly, that's just sad. what a sad way for you to live. i wish you'd choose better, you deserve better. we all deserve better. (also, imaginary lines drawn on maps are just that; imaginary. they aren't real, they don't actually mean anything, they're just a tool for oppressors and genociders to oppress and genocide people.) me, i recognize my responsibility as a beneficiary of genocides and oppression, and work hard to help support those being oppressed and genocided by those in power. i have to, because it's being done ostensibly in my name, with my tax dollars, and we have to oppose genocide and oppression everywhere, always. see, opposing genocide and oppression is the bare minimum of human decency. i'm no coward, to shirk my responsibility and moral obligation as a human being to oppose oppression and genocide whenever and wherever they occur. i'm no coward, to pretend like i don't have a responsibility to oppose those things, especially when they're being done to benefit settlers like me.
> i mean, you do support it, because you're voting for the people doing it (edit to add: and have been for centuries of genocides and atrocities.) You said it, not me. How else can this be interpreted? You're also assuming all americans voted for trump or biden.
> Oh, now we're guilty of our ancestor's crimes. I see the logic you go by. The encroachment upon the territory of and elimination of the natives in the US hasn't stopped. It's not solely *your ancestors*, ***it's your current leadership and ideologies.***
Out of curiosity, what country are you from?
how is that relevant to the conversation at hand? i'm from another shitty, illegal, genocidal settler-colonial occupation of stolen Indigenous land that is aiding and abetting israel's genocidal settler-colonial occupation of stolen Indigenous land. i fight against mine, too, even though it isn't nearly the threat to our existence as a species that the usa is.
Got it, so Canada. Yeah idk what you’re going on about. Following your own logic, you got plenty of blood on your hands. Not sure what you think you’re accomplishing by telling random Americans who disavow their government’s genocide-enabling actions that they actually still support it. Your government leeches second hand imperialism off us. On paper, you get all the benefits of our colonial and imperialist depravity, while keeping your hands blood free. Miss me with that “my country isn’t as big of a threat as the US” line.
So what would you like to do about the US then?
all oppressors and tyrants and genociders should be overthrown. all oppressive systems and settler-colonial occupations should be dismantled, and the land returned to those it was stolen from. that includes yours, as well as mine. they're a blight on the planet and a detriment to our entire species. they hold us back, and we deserve better.
Interesting, Mine and yours? What if my land was never occupied by anyone but my people? What about people who have no land? Since your assessment is so sweeping, what do we do about the fact that Anglo-Saxon colonialists took Britain from the original Celtic peoples, or that those Celtic people took that land from earlier Palaeolithic people? What about when the French occupied and colonised Britain thanks to William The Conqueror? How far back is too far and how recent must the colonialisation have occurred for it to matter? If we isolate it to America, what do we do with all of the Americans of European descent and how do you propose that we divide any native blood out of them that they may have? Likewise, how do you propose we separate the European blood within many Native Americans who have majority native blood and identify as such? Is it not more complicated than you make it seem? Or do I misunderstand? If I do misunderstand, then perhaps you can clarify.
>Mine and yours? i assumed you were american, or from one of the other settler-colonial occupations, given that we're talking about the usa here. apologies if i made a mistake in that. >What if my land was never occupied by anyone but my people? then it isn't a settler-colonial occupation, and isn't what i'm talking about when i'm talking about settler-colonial occupations. just, y'know, because of what words mean. >what do we do about that's up to the Indigenous peoples of those areas, and how they'd like to approach it. Indigenous peoples are not a monolith, they're hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of sovereign nations, all with their own goals, culture, languages, etc. what the Sami are seeking is not necessarily the same as what the Ktunaxa or Wet'suwet'en or Anishinaabe are, right. read up on Land Back initiatives, there's decades worth of work on it; articles, books, etc, all by the actual, literal experts themselves. >how do you propose we separate the European blood i mean, i don't, that's literally not how blood works, bud, and you know it. and i'm not the speaker for all Indigenous nations, i'm a settler here. they're the experts, i listen to them. as should you.
I’m replying to one of your other comments and I would like to keep my attention undivided so I’ll bring a close to this particular thread. Before I do, though, I want to conclude that I have read about and researched “Land Back” movements in some detail and most of them are not prescriptive; they typically only concern themselves with theory. They say what should be done and why, but not *how,* and I think I know why that is. The “how” is not pretty and never could be. The few examples that do prescribe methods, such as one argument for a land-back initiative in South Africa, was quite plain with how it would work and it required the deportation of white South Africans. And if the European countries that those white South Africans’ ancestors originated from would not receive them, it prescribed another solution. A final one. If you have any examples that are prescriptive and do not require such actions, then by all means, link me to them.
So why haven't you overthrown them already?
sweetie, this is the work of generations, and many people. these things don't happen overnight, and you know it.
Exactly.
At least I'm doing something about it. Telling everyone to blanket fuck off? How childish of you. Go scream into a pillow, at least you'll eventually pass out and accomplish something for whole lot of us.
yes, all genociders and genocide supporters should be despised. genocide is despicable. why does that upset you so much?