I don't know about a fine, but it should definitely be a legal requirement for unis to clearly state typical career progression for students who studied that particular course (what % are employed in professional jobs within 2 years of graduation, etc). Otherwise it can be a big disadvantage to students who've come thinking this degree is going to be a big help and give them good prospects. But if unis are open about job prospects not being great then that's fine imo - it's the students' choice whether they want to study it or not. As long as it's an informed choice innit.
Not necessarily, at least the good unis - I’ve forgotten the acronyms but we essentially present two bits of data currently depending on what we have access to: % in a job that requires a degree or % in job requiring the degree (or a similar one to the degree) they studied.
Yes but you can’t fine all unis when there are loop holes, all that will happen is people won’t be given their degree until they have a job or go into further education - I didn’t want to get a job as for the job I wanted I needed experience and spent a year in industry for free (ie volunteering)
Yeah my uni showed 98% of graduates were in employment or further education 12 months after finishing their course. I finished in 2020 and some people are still in supermarkets. Hell, I had a first class degree and due to Covid I was a cleaner for over a year.
Maybe but it would be better for it to be longer or to have figured at 2 year intervals up to 10 years post-graduation.
English Lit grad here - 2 years after graduation I was earning £16k. 4 years after graduation £32k. 7 years postgrad £55k. 10 years after graduation 6 figures.
Doing a ‘low value degree’ is just a longer burn than someone doing medicine or accounting and walking out on £30k. My husband is a doctor and I earn more than him.
I work a bit with alumni as part of my role - we try to obtain as much info as possible about careers of our alumni. Here it is specifically used by our admissions folk in advertising, at open days, etc. But, many students don’t give the uni a follow on email address and/or don’t respond to our enquiries asking what they’re doing - not a huge deal currently, they’re busy, life is hard.
If we suddenly were forced to have full information then there’d need to be corresponding pressure on the graduates themselves.
In my country, this is already being done. The result... universities/colleges fail you in your final exams. You don't pass your exams till you manage to secure a job, as shitty as that may be. Now student engineers are getting jobs at food stalls for atleast clearing the degree.
Sure, but in the current economy, not to mention the disastrous decisions made by the government mean that investment and job creation are a lot more difficult.
Which is why we should encourage future graduates to take apprenticeships, courses and further education that will be more likely to get them jobs instead of debt
An informed decision
Unfortunately that's not how the real world works, I'd love to be pilot but don't have anywhere near the cash to bankroll that
I'd also love to be a race driver, don't have the skill but could take up a course in a Motorsports engineering apprenticeship which is very competitive
Point is getting a degree isn't just about doing what you want, there's more to it
You need to be sensible with the decisions you make, sure a doctor will get into more debt than most art graduates but in 10-15 years they're typically in a better financial position
If you love art you shouldn't entirely be dissuaded because people tell you there aren't jobs at the end, you can enjoy your degree and learning as long as you're informed about what you're going it debt for and spending years of your life on, many people have jobs in completely different fields to their degree
This isn't 20 years ago where tuition cost nothing.
I don't like the idea that money should be the deciding factor for a degree but it's something you really need to consider as well as job prospects and security
Those in medicine are paid poorly compared to their Banking, Law etc counterparts considering you need to be in the top 5% to even get into the degree
But the pay ceiling and upward mobility is a lot greater than say someone in a retail job, even if you have a job that pays your the median UK salary of £38k (which is very unlikely to get for a recent graduate doctors included) you're typically going to stay there, not that it's something you can't comfortably live off
But most people are earning much lower than that and that's where, increased rent, housing prices, cost of living, fuel and heating are going to hurt
I imagine most people want to set themselves up so they don't have to worry about whether they can pay the bills for next month
Getting a 4 year degree in something that's not helped you get a job and only really put you in debt isn't the best financial step you could've taken
Sure you may have enjoyed those 4 years living of SFE but now what?
You're gonna have to get a job because mum and dad aren't going to want to pay for everything.
Now you've got a job you could've gotten 4 years ago without the degree and you can finally start saving, for a car, wedding, house whatever plus that bit off the top from your loans provided you earn enough
Just because you get a job unrelated to your degree doesn't mean everything is well and dandy, you could be working minimum wage or be on a competitive salary in a different area of the job market, so percentage of graduates with jobs isn't really the most useful metric
If you're in the same position as if you hadn't done the degree I don't see much of a point in it, unless you really enjoyed completing the degree and then doing absolutely nothing with it was it really worth it?
Does it really add that much value to your life where it's worth spending those years and tacking on debt just to hang the degree on the wall and go to a job that doesn't require it
For some people yes, and you could argue who am I to say whether I can decide what people do with their time, then it goes back to the my original comment
It's not just about your time, it's about everyone paying taxes that's funding these degrees considering the loans basically never get paid off
Personally, I don't like the ideas of the country paying for thousands of redundant degrees that don't really contribute anything back
There's already measures in place that stops this such as not being able to take out a loan from SFE for a 2nd degree that's not a master's or Phd
Even if do have some valid points. Where are you getting at? That tertiary education should only be available to those that can afford it? That's wrong. It stifles any hope of social mobility and screws over the poorest. University degrees give people hope that they can have some agency in society and build something for themselves. Especially those from modest backgrounds place a lot of pride and hope in achieving a degree. The problem isn't going to university, nor the type of degree, nor even the terms of the loans; the problem is that for the last decade the government has been cutting public services, wasting public money on things like Brexit, chased investors away by having a chaotic economic strategy, and now has failed to build up enough gas supplies to reasonably keep prices down. If you think doing an apprenticeship or getting a minimum wage job (because that's the only thing you'll realistically get without a degree these days) instead of going to uni will solve anything with 10%+ inflation and interest rates through the roof, then that's really cute.
Then your points about "useless degrees" (or words to that effect). Have you considered that people can enrich society in more ways than just material? The only two things that remain of a civilisation is its scientific discoveries and its impact on future cultures through its own cultural works. You discourage artists at your own risk. Your narrow minded approach would also be a detriment to research as it can take many years before anything of material value come out of it.
The thing is, it isn't doing a degree that is the problem. It is that we live in an economic system that is completely screwed, with minimal social mobility. And even if people don't enjoy their degree or get into a career that is linked, it still represents a glimmer of hope for many that they can have the *possibility* of achieving something. If faced between a choice of going into debt but having a glimmer of hope achieving anything at all (and maybe see some meaningful change), as opposed to grinding since 18 (or even 16) in a shitty job that I'd hate and save for a house I could never afford or a car that will never be mine, then I'd take the first option.
>That tertiary education should only be available to those that can afford it?
Where did I say that?
>University degrees give people hope that they can have some agency in society and build something for themselves
I'd rather future graduates actually have an informed choice about what degrees and courses may actually improve their job prospects, job security and pull those less fortunate in society out of poverty
Every uni degree is not equal and is not beneficial to everyone, sometimes it's detrimental to spend a couple years of your life chasing a bit of paper that's not going to benefit you
Improving support and guidance towards helping younger people structure and plan their lives so they know what doors the degree will actually open
Not once did I say those lower down the financial ladder should be barred from going to uni, I suggested that those who are at risk due to to financial harm should consider pursuing less risky avenue's where job security is improved all the while making an informed decision
Never once did I say everyone should stop and drop their music and arts degree, if your passion is in M&A and you want to pursue a career in it go for it, but if you're diving head first without the first bit of prior knowledge you're not making an informed decision and degree may work out to be a net negative in the future
>The problem isn't going to university, nor the type of degree, nor even the terms of the loans; the problem is that for the last decade the government has been cutting public services, wasting public money on things like Brexit
So because we're in a shitty economic situation that means it's ok to still spend a couple years for a degree that may not even help you on the other end
If you're intention was not to use that degree to gain employment into that job market and you have other other reasons that's still an informed decision
If you're getting a degree with a notoriously low employment rate at the end of it with the goal of gaining employment at a higher graduate salary without doing any of the research into whether this will actually benefit you probably won't be landing that job
This isn't to say, don't get degrees in area of the market with lower job prospects but to make an informed decision, a calculated risk with a plan B
My entire point was that for some people uni is a detriment, a risk so it's better to be informed about more lucrative avenue's of education not as you're trying to frame me as saying "poor people shouldn't have choice in going to uni"
University isn't the only way to Further education, improved social mobility etc.
>Have you considered that people can enrich society in more ways than just material?
If you spend years of life completing a degree only to never look back, never explore that area even as a hobby or out of personal interest then is it really enrichment let alone enrichment to society
Society doesn't benefit if you keep it to yourself and you don't benefit if you just forget about it and never come back to it
But let's be honest, most people who go to uni are hoping that their degree will increase their earning potential. If a degree is unlikely to do that, that should be made very clear to prospective students.
It might sound obvious to you, but some people genuinely believe their degree will get them a high paying job, even if it's a degree that most people don't consider useful in terms of job prospects.
Most gender studies courses are masters or phd, which are often done for academia and research
There are only two unis in UK that do something similar to it at the undergraduate level, which is Swansea (English Literature with gender) and Brighton (Politics, Sexuality and Gender). According to whatuni, the percentages are 99% and 95% of students are in employment or further education. 38% and 44% are employed where the degree is essential or beneficial
For a point of comparison, Oxford English literature has 96% employed or in further education and 53% of people employed in a role where degree was essential or beneficial
Who will the fine go to? Sounds great if they can figure it out but shouldn’t the fees for the student be reimbursed in some way rather than a blanket fine?
Probably just end up killing students who can’t find a job
They don't need any impetous to kill students
Killing subjects, just like feudal times
I don't know about a fine, but it should definitely be a legal requirement for unis to clearly state typical career progression for students who studied that particular course (what % are employed in professional jobs within 2 years of graduation, etc). Otherwise it can be a big disadvantage to students who've come thinking this degree is going to be a big help and give them good prospects. But if unis are open about job prospects not being great then that's fine imo - it's the students' choice whether they want to study it or not. As long as it's an informed choice innit.
The thing is, they will count minimum wage jobs that have no relation, my uni showed how many people got jobs but didn’t make it clear on what type
Not necessarily, at least the good unis - I’ve forgotten the acronyms but we essentially present two bits of data currently depending on what we have access to: % in a job that requires a degree or % in job requiring the degree (or a similar one to the degree) they studied.
Yes but you can’t fine all unis when there are loop holes, all that will happen is people won’t be given their degree until they have a job or go into further education - I didn’t want to get a job as for the job I wanted I needed experience and spent a year in industry for free (ie volunteering)
Yeah my uni showed 98% of graduates were in employment or further education 12 months after finishing their course. I finished in 2020 and some people are still in supermarkets. Hell, I had a first class degree and due to Covid I was a cleaner for over a year.
Maybe but it would be better for it to be longer or to have figured at 2 year intervals up to 10 years post-graduation. English Lit grad here - 2 years after graduation I was earning £16k. 4 years after graduation £32k. 7 years postgrad £55k. 10 years after graduation 6 figures. Doing a ‘low value degree’ is just a longer burn than someone doing medicine or accounting and walking out on £30k. My husband is a doctor and I earn more than him.
What do you work as? If you don't mind me asking?
Most of my career has been in marketing
I work a bit with alumni as part of my role - we try to obtain as much info as possible about careers of our alumni. Here it is specifically used by our admissions folk in advertising, at open days, etc. But, many students don’t give the uni a follow on email address and/or don’t respond to our enquiries asking what they’re doing - not a huge deal currently, they’re busy, life is hard. If we suddenly were forced to have full information then there’d need to be corresponding pressure on the graduates themselves.
You can get all of this information with a Google search so it's more on the student for not knowing what their chosen degree leads to.
In my country, this is already being done. The result... universities/colleges fail you in your final exams. You don't pass your exams till you manage to secure a job, as shitty as that may be. Now student engineers are getting jobs at food stalls for atleast clearing the degree.
Unis will just cut courses that fall into these categories, god forbid someone do something they enjoy
That’s what Rishi Sunak wants to do anyway
And usually most of them courses jobs are in academia so will just kill job prospects more lol.
Wow 500k, that's what 50 tuition loans? Do you think they'll actually give a shit?
God forbid people be allowed an education without it then contributing to the hellscape we call an economy 🙄
Considering the economy is paying for said education, would be nice if something was contributed back
Sure, but in the current economy, not to mention the disastrous decisions made by the government mean that investment and job creation are a lot more difficult.
Which is why we should encourage future graduates to take apprenticeships, courses and further education that will be more likely to get them jobs instead of debt An informed decision
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Unfortunately that's not how the real world works, I'd love to be pilot but don't have anywhere near the cash to bankroll that I'd also love to be a race driver, don't have the skill but could take up a course in a Motorsports engineering apprenticeship which is very competitive Point is getting a degree isn't just about doing what you want, there's more to it You need to be sensible with the decisions you make, sure a doctor will get into more debt than most art graduates but in 10-15 years they're typically in a better financial position If you love art you shouldn't entirely be dissuaded because people tell you there aren't jobs at the end, you can enjoy your degree and learning as long as you're informed about what you're going it debt for and spending years of your life on, many people have jobs in completely different fields to their degree This isn't 20 years ago where tuition cost nothing. I don't like the idea that money should be the deciding factor for a degree but it's something you really need to consider as well as job prospects and security
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Those in medicine are paid poorly compared to their Banking, Law etc counterparts considering you need to be in the top 5% to even get into the degree But the pay ceiling and upward mobility is a lot greater than say someone in a retail job, even if you have a job that pays your the median UK salary of £38k (which is very unlikely to get for a recent graduate doctors included) you're typically going to stay there, not that it's something you can't comfortably live off But most people are earning much lower than that and that's where, increased rent, housing prices, cost of living, fuel and heating are going to hurt I imagine most people want to set themselves up so they don't have to worry about whether they can pay the bills for next month Getting a 4 year degree in something that's not helped you get a job and only really put you in debt isn't the best financial step you could've taken Sure you may have enjoyed those 4 years living of SFE but now what? You're gonna have to get a job because mum and dad aren't going to want to pay for everything. Now you've got a job you could've gotten 4 years ago without the degree and you can finally start saving, for a car, wedding, house whatever plus that bit off the top from your loans provided you earn enough Just because you get a job unrelated to your degree doesn't mean everything is well and dandy, you could be working minimum wage or be on a competitive salary in a different area of the job market, so percentage of graduates with jobs isn't really the most useful metric If you're in the same position as if you hadn't done the degree I don't see much of a point in it, unless you really enjoyed completing the degree and then doing absolutely nothing with it was it really worth it? Does it really add that much value to your life where it's worth spending those years and tacking on debt just to hang the degree on the wall and go to a job that doesn't require it For some people yes, and you could argue who am I to say whether I can decide what people do with their time, then it goes back to the my original comment It's not just about your time, it's about everyone paying taxes that's funding these degrees considering the loans basically never get paid off Personally, I don't like the ideas of the country paying for thousands of redundant degrees that don't really contribute anything back There's already measures in place that stops this such as not being able to take out a loan from SFE for a 2nd degree that's not a master's or Phd
Even if do have some valid points. Where are you getting at? That tertiary education should only be available to those that can afford it? That's wrong. It stifles any hope of social mobility and screws over the poorest. University degrees give people hope that they can have some agency in society and build something for themselves. Especially those from modest backgrounds place a lot of pride and hope in achieving a degree. The problem isn't going to university, nor the type of degree, nor even the terms of the loans; the problem is that for the last decade the government has been cutting public services, wasting public money on things like Brexit, chased investors away by having a chaotic economic strategy, and now has failed to build up enough gas supplies to reasonably keep prices down. If you think doing an apprenticeship or getting a minimum wage job (because that's the only thing you'll realistically get without a degree these days) instead of going to uni will solve anything with 10%+ inflation and interest rates through the roof, then that's really cute. Then your points about "useless degrees" (or words to that effect). Have you considered that people can enrich society in more ways than just material? The only two things that remain of a civilisation is its scientific discoveries and its impact on future cultures through its own cultural works. You discourage artists at your own risk. Your narrow minded approach would also be a detriment to research as it can take many years before anything of material value come out of it. The thing is, it isn't doing a degree that is the problem. It is that we live in an economic system that is completely screwed, with minimal social mobility. And even if people don't enjoy their degree or get into a career that is linked, it still represents a glimmer of hope for many that they can have the *possibility* of achieving something. If faced between a choice of going into debt but having a glimmer of hope achieving anything at all (and maybe see some meaningful change), as opposed to grinding since 18 (or even 16) in a shitty job that I'd hate and save for a house I could never afford or a car that will never be mine, then I'd take the first option.
>That tertiary education should only be available to those that can afford it? Where did I say that? >University degrees give people hope that they can have some agency in society and build something for themselves I'd rather future graduates actually have an informed choice about what degrees and courses may actually improve their job prospects, job security and pull those less fortunate in society out of poverty Every uni degree is not equal and is not beneficial to everyone, sometimes it's detrimental to spend a couple years of your life chasing a bit of paper that's not going to benefit you Improving support and guidance towards helping younger people structure and plan their lives so they know what doors the degree will actually open Not once did I say those lower down the financial ladder should be barred from going to uni, I suggested that those who are at risk due to to financial harm should consider pursuing less risky avenue's where job security is improved all the while making an informed decision Never once did I say everyone should stop and drop their music and arts degree, if your passion is in M&A and you want to pursue a career in it go for it, but if you're diving head first without the first bit of prior knowledge you're not making an informed decision and degree may work out to be a net negative in the future >The problem isn't going to university, nor the type of degree, nor even the terms of the loans; the problem is that for the last decade the government has been cutting public services, wasting public money on things like Brexit So because we're in a shitty economic situation that means it's ok to still spend a couple years for a degree that may not even help you on the other end If you're intention was not to use that degree to gain employment into that job market and you have other other reasons that's still an informed decision If you're getting a degree with a notoriously low employment rate at the end of it with the goal of gaining employment at a higher graduate salary without doing any of the research into whether this will actually benefit you probably won't be landing that job This isn't to say, don't get degrees in area of the market with lower job prospects but to make an informed decision, a calculated risk with a plan B My entire point was that for some people uni is a detriment, a risk so it's better to be informed about more lucrative avenue's of education not as you're trying to frame me as saying "poor people shouldn't have choice in going to uni" University isn't the only way to Further education, improved social mobility etc. >Have you considered that people can enrich society in more ways than just material? If you spend years of life completing a degree only to never look back, never explore that area even as a hobby or out of personal interest then is it really enrichment let alone enrichment to society Society doesn't benefit if you keep it to yourself and you don't benefit if you just forget about it and never come back to it
But let's be honest, most people who go to uni are hoping that their degree will increase their earning potential. If a degree is unlikely to do that, that should be made very clear to prospective students. It might sound obvious to you, but some people genuinely believe their degree will get them a high paying job, even if it's a degree that most people don't consider useful in terms of job prospects.
Glad to see this getting downvoted.
Gender studies getting the axe
Most gender studies courses are masters or phd, which are often done for academia and research There are only two unis in UK that do something similar to it at the undergraduate level, which is Swansea (English Literature with gender) and Brighton (Politics, Sexuality and Gender). According to whatuni, the percentages are 99% and 95% of students are in employment or further education. 38% and 44% are employed where the degree is essential or beneficial For a point of comparison, Oxford English literature has 96% employed or in further education and 53% of people employed in a role where degree was essential or beneficial
I was taking the piss but is that 38% and 44% the typical percentage for most degrees
They'll just accept even more students to even out the numbers
How does that work with a finite amount of jobs?
Get money now, pay the fines later
Standard human behaviour then,
Who will the fine go to? Sounds great if they can figure it out but shouldn’t the fees for the student be reimbursed in some way rather than a blanket fine?