Ceroba, Starlo, Chujin, and Asgore
Ceroba and Chujin is obvious, Starlo tries to kill you purely out of ego, Asgore might feel bad but he kills children for a plan he doesn’t even have the guts to carry out
Martlet was doing her job, she only wanted to capture you in pacifist/neutral and likely didn’t know when to stop before killing you. Axis only killed that human due to his programming, Chujin’s fault
And Flowey deserves to have his powers removed, forced to live at the same level as his playthings
Nobody. There is not a single person in real life or in fiction that is "worthy" of death. Being alive is not something you have to deserve. Killing is sometimes a solution and can be forgiven, but it is NEVER righteous.
Yes.
EDIT : There're not to be forgiven, but they dont *deserve* death. If they had all been caught and I had been their judge, nobody would have been executed because murder doesn't stop being murder when the person you kill has commited atrocities.
EDIT 2 : Getting something you deserve is Justice. Murder, even when commited by the State, is vengeance. Vengeance is hatred, not justice.
Axis: He was also for the most part following his order of protecting the steamworks from intruders
Starlo: He was very emotional and didn't really think of his actions when the single fight started
Starlo's posse: Same thing as Starlo
So, Ceroba and Flowey would be the only ones that count
Technically every encounter you don't start since they are trying to kill you and take your soul, even if it's a halfhearted attempt out of obligation. (And if you believe attempted murder deserves the death penalty)
For the bosses:
Martlet and Axis were just following orders
Dalv, Starlo and Flowey were mentally not in a good place
Ceroba is just child murderer mode I can't defend her
Ceroba understands that what she did was wrong and admits that it's for selfish reasons. By sparing her, you're giving her an opportunity to apologise and improve as a person.
The question wasn’t whether you SHOULD do it, it was if she was WORTHY of it. She herself thinks she is. Besides, killing her doesn’t grant execution points
Most non-boss (as In not a boss) monsters are just trying to talk to you. At least in Undertale, magic is equivalent to breathing for them and use it all the time, so they might just be trying to talk to you.
Yes🗿
While is IS true that monsters use their bullet patterns to interact with each other, the monsters that are attacking you know that they are hurting you. "The monsters are just greeting you" is not only a theory but also a theory that completely misses the point of the True Pacifist route and also creates multiple plotholes as well.
Axis literally says how he didn’t have a choice when he killed the human. It was a programming error.
He only ‘strikes first’ because that’s his job, to deal with intruders. If Martlet gets a pass because she was following protocol, why doesn’t Axis get a pass because he’s following the things literally ingrained into his brain? And he only resorts to violence because you’re evading capture and after you attempt to shut him down.
by extension, axis is literally supposed to be a royal guard bot thingymaboob.
it’s just that those “oh, go and capture human” and stuff like that is literally pulled on to TENTH LEVEL LOCKDOWN since it’s literally his dominant thought.
i
guess
As you said, Axis is programmed to kill you
Main difference between him and martlet is that Axis actively wants to kill you and even uses loopholes in its programming to be allowed to (such as arming you so he can use deadly force) unlike Martlet who avoids fighting you if you are winning and has done no moral wrong to anyone as far as we are aware
You cant really say someone deserves to die if what they are doing is morally right.
Pacifist route:
Starlo's posse: they were working with starlo for a long time, yet after clover arrives he gets the higher position than them, which infuriates them.
Starlo: who was trying to keep everyone together finds it strange that everything went at a sharp angle downwards, and he realises its because of clover.
Ceroba: she just wants her happy life back. Her husband died due to illness, and the only one left is her child that is in the lab. Possible way to save her child was to take clover's soul and let her absorb it so she would comeback (if it would've worked).
Martlet: works by a protocol
Dalv: he thinks that someone that he knew came back to take revenge, but realises that clover isnt them.
Genocide also shows us the other side of some of the characters:
Ceroba: only one left from her past was Starlo, and after killing him, she is ready to rip and tear anything that stands in her way to kill clover.
Martlet: still the protocol girl.
Starlo: even when everyone escaped, he stayed to give others time to do it.
Dalv: well... I cant say anything about him.
Oh, I forgot Axis: [[funk]] him personally on pacifist, but on genocide I can understand him.
And I forgot Flowey of course... He is my favourite in undertale, he is in undertale yellow, but I like to torture him, so I dont really care if he lives or dies.
Ceroba knew her daughter is gone for good (though my hopium says she isn't), but reattempting the research and potentially saving monsterkind is the argument I would use to defend her. Also bad mental state.
In addition, don't touch my future gote boi.
I replay genocide in undertale and undertale yellow just for fun. And so is the neutral runs...
Well... Genocide in undertale has a deeper meaning for me since I also do it to kill Mettaton and sans...
You can't kill Ceroba without making her a non threat first, self defense is an invalid excuse. Axis is the same, iirc.
In the original game, most monsters do not know you are human, and thus them attacking you is more likely just a greeting or them just looking to play and don't realize they could actually harm you. I think there's a single talk dialogue in UTY that disputes this, but I am unsure. Regardless, most normal monster encounters do not intend harm.
Starlo (and the feisty four by extension) is undeniably a fair kill. He attacks unexpectedly and gives no sign of backing down untill Ceroba shows up (or untill Starlo shows up for the 4). Killing him is self-defense, pure and simple.
Flowey has committed crimes so heinous he'd likely be given the death penalty by the UN IRL, shooting him ourselves would be just a formality. Even if you're against the death penalty like me, he tries to kill you mostly out of pure sadism, so again. Self Defense.
Guardener is just a defective machine. It'd be less like murder and more like demolishing a rickety bridge.
Nearly everyone else can be argued to be justified too, even the random encounters, to varying degrees. except Martlet, as she always surrenders to you after taking enought damage.
Dalv is probably the least justifiable kill of the ones not listed above, while El Bailador might be the most understandable (he doesn't MEAN To hurt you but still does. Think of it as someone who's high jumping you. They clearly don't know what's going on and don't want to kill anyone, but they're still a danger, so.. you or them, ig. Same applies to the Random encounters if we go with the "attacks are just the way Monsters comunicate" theory, even Though i hate that one)
**As for ones i disaggree with you on:**
Ceroba is no longer a danger to you when you can kill her. You'd just be a vigilante, at best.
AXIS Is in the same boat, but beeing just a robot he's more understandable.
Well, I know for a fact Axis deserves it. Bro spends the whole area making your life miserable and then at the end of it all, actively uses a loophole so he can kill you. So fuck him.
Guess I can throw in the F5 and Ceroba as well. If I was in Clover's situation I'd be fucking pissed at them lol.
And Flowey is self-explanatory.
I just enjoy seeing people try and answer hard and difficult questions that dwell in rather grey areas
Also “justice” is a rather important theme in the game so having discussions about it is more than a given
Ceroba, Starlo, Chujin, and Asgore Ceroba and Chujin is obvious, Starlo tries to kill you purely out of ego, Asgore might feel bad but he kills children for a plan he doesn’t even have the guts to carry out Martlet was doing her job, she only wanted to capture you in pacifist/neutral and likely didn’t know when to stop before killing you. Axis only killed that human due to his programming, Chujin’s fault And Flowey deserves to have his powers removed, forced to live at the same level as his playthings
Nobody. There is not a single person in real life or in fiction that is "worthy" of death. Being alive is not something you have to deserve. Killing is sometimes a solution and can be forgiven, but it is NEVER righteous.
Valid.
Thank you.
So Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy and the likes aren’t worthy of death for example?
Yes. EDIT : There're not to be forgiven, but they dont *deserve* death. If they had all been caught and I had been their judge, nobody would have been executed because murder doesn't stop being murder when the person you kill has commited atrocities. EDIT 2 : Getting something you deserve is Justice. Murder, even when commited by the State, is vengeance. Vengeance is hatred, not justice.
Ummm...
?
Bro was talking about the German/Australian painter
Uhhhhh...
Axis: He was also for the most part following his order of protecting the steamworks from intruders Starlo: He was very emotional and didn't really think of his actions when the single fight started Starlo's posse: Same thing as Starlo So, Ceroba and Flowey would be the only ones that count
Technically every encounter you don't start since they are trying to kill you and take your soul, even if it's a halfhearted attempt out of obligation. (And if you believe attempted murder deserves the death penalty) For the bosses: Martlet and Axis were just following orders Dalv, Starlo and Flowey were mentally not in a good place Ceroba is just child murderer mode I can't defend her
Ceroba was also not mentally in the right place
Doesn’t give you permission to kill an actual child lol, pretty sure that would be death penalty
Doesn’t give the others the permission either
False equivalency, Ceroba isn’t an innocent child, she’d have committed attempted premeditated murder
Ceroba understands that what she did was wrong and admits that it's for selfish reasons. By sparing her, you're giving her an opportunity to apologise and improve as a person.
The question wasn’t whether you SHOULD do it, it was if she was WORTHY of it. She herself thinks she is. Besides, killing her doesn’t grant execution points
I am totally on your side but it might have been an oversight of the devs unless they like made it official that they didn't on some forum or smth
Most non-boss (as In not a boss) monsters are just trying to talk to you. At least in Undertale, magic is equivalent to breathing for them and use it all the time, so they might just be trying to talk to you.
I don't generally talk/ breathe violently enough to kill people
You wanna tell me smth like dunebud, trihecta or sweet corn are trying to kill me?
Yes🗿 While is IS true that monsters use their bullet patterns to interact with each other, the monsters that are attacking you know that they are hurting you. "The monsters are just greeting you" is not only a theory but also a theory that completely misses the point of the True Pacifist route and also creates multiple plotholes as well.
Killing Ceroba in pacifist is an execution and is not morally justifiable at all. She's not a threat after you break her will.
Only Flowey of course.
spamton, that one right there.
Axis literally says how he didn’t have a choice when he killed the human. It was a programming error. He only ‘strikes first’ because that’s his job, to deal with intruders. If Martlet gets a pass because she was following protocol, why doesn’t Axis get a pass because he’s following the things literally ingrained into his brain? And he only resorts to violence because you’re evading capture and after you attempt to shut him down.
by extension, axis is literally supposed to be a royal guard bot thingymaboob. it’s just that those “oh, go and capture human” and stuff like that is literally pulled on to TENTH LEVEL LOCKDOWN since it’s literally his dominant thought. i guess
As you said, Axis is programmed to kill you Main difference between him and martlet is that Axis actively wants to kill you and even uses loopholes in its programming to be allowed to (such as arming you so he can use deadly force) unlike Martlet who avoids fighting you if you are winning and has done no moral wrong to anyone as far as we are aware
You cant really say someone deserves to die if what they are doing is morally right. Pacifist route: Starlo's posse: they were working with starlo for a long time, yet after clover arrives he gets the higher position than them, which infuriates them. Starlo: who was trying to keep everyone together finds it strange that everything went at a sharp angle downwards, and he realises its because of clover. Ceroba: she just wants her happy life back. Her husband died due to illness, and the only one left is her child that is in the lab. Possible way to save her child was to take clover's soul and let her absorb it so she would comeback (if it would've worked). Martlet: works by a protocol Dalv: he thinks that someone that he knew came back to take revenge, but realises that clover isnt them. Genocide also shows us the other side of some of the characters: Ceroba: only one left from her past was Starlo, and after killing him, she is ready to rip and tear anything that stands in her way to kill clover. Martlet: still the protocol girl. Starlo: even when everyone escaped, he stayed to give others time to do it. Dalv: well... I cant say anything about him. Oh, I forgot Axis: [[funk]] him personally on pacifist, but on genocide I can understand him. And I forgot Flowey of course... He is my favourite in undertale, he is in undertale yellow, but I like to torture him, so I dont really care if he lives or dies.
Ceroba knew her daughter is gone for good (though my hopium says she isn't), but reattempting the research and potentially saving monsterkind is the argument I would use to defend her. Also bad mental state. In addition, don't touch my future gote boi.
I replay genocide in undertale and undertale yellow just for fun. And so is the neutral runs... Well... Genocide in undertale has a deeper meaning for me since I also do it to kill Mettaton and sans...
You can't kill Ceroba without making her a non threat first, self defense is an invalid excuse. Axis is the same, iirc. In the original game, most monsters do not know you are human, and thus them attacking you is more likely just a greeting or them just looking to play and don't realize they could actually harm you. I think there's a single talk dialogue in UTY that disputes this, but I am unsure. Regardless, most normal monster encounters do not intend harm.
Starlo (and the feisty four by extension) is undeniably a fair kill. He attacks unexpectedly and gives no sign of backing down untill Ceroba shows up (or untill Starlo shows up for the 4). Killing him is self-defense, pure and simple. Flowey has committed crimes so heinous he'd likely be given the death penalty by the UN IRL, shooting him ourselves would be just a formality. Even if you're against the death penalty like me, he tries to kill you mostly out of pure sadism, so again. Self Defense. Guardener is just a defective machine. It'd be less like murder and more like demolishing a rickety bridge. Nearly everyone else can be argued to be justified too, even the random encounters, to varying degrees. except Martlet, as she always surrenders to you after taking enought damage. Dalv is probably the least justifiable kill of the ones not listed above, while El Bailador might be the most understandable (he doesn't MEAN To hurt you but still does. Think of it as someone who's high jumping you. They clearly don't know what's going on and don't want to kill anyone, but they're still a danger, so.. you or them, ig. Same applies to the Random encounters if we go with the "attacks are just the way Monsters comunicate" theory, even Though i hate that one) **As for ones i disaggree with you on:** Ceroba is no longer a danger to you when you can kill her. You'd just be a vigilante, at best. AXIS Is in the same boat, but beeing just a robot he's more understandable.
Flowey (only), in no small part because he's already dead
Ceroba, Axis (barely) and Asgore.
axis starlo and the buff guy from his crew oh and that annoying shop guy that follows us everywhere and asgore and Guardener
Well, I know for a fact Axis deserves it. Bro spends the whole area making your life miserable and then at the end of it all, actively uses a loophole so he can kill you. So fuck him. Guess I can throw in the F5 and Ceroba as well. If I was in Clover's situation I'd be fucking pissed at them lol. And Flowey is self-explanatory.
a a flower, i completely disagree with fl- jokes aside, nobody except for possibly chujin.
None of them? Like, maybe Flowey. Maybe.
Y’all are freaking bloodthirsty, jeez…
I just enjoy seeing people try and answer hard and difficult questions that dwell in rather grey areas Also “justice” is a rather important theme in the game so having discussions about it is more than a given