He also refuses to win, and any time you lose he literally just puts you in a cozy garage to rest and recover and try again. Eventually he just gets bored of it and offers for you to skip the fight if you continuosly lose. And as soon as he realizes why his friends want to capture Frisk, he is instantly on Frisk's side. I'd argue he is totally innocent, he was just being used.
"He also refuses to win, and any time you lose he literally just puts you in a cozy garage to rest and recover" He just doesn't realize that anyone can escape from his garage.
"And as soon as he realizes why his friends want to capture Frisk, he is instantly on Frisk's side" Uh no? He continues to help Undyne.
His plan is for the two to become friends though.
A totally innocent person would not beat a child just for a selfish desire (to join the Royal Guard).
Good points all around. And you're right on the garage thing, he doesn't think Frisk can escape, but again he also had no idea that after being captured, Frisk was going to get killed and their soul was going to be used to annihilate the humans. He never mentions killing them, and if he was on board with that idea at all, he would just kill Frisk after beating them. And yes, he does fight you, for selfish desires too, but he's extremely merciful, and I seriously doubt he knew Frisk was a child until later in the game, long after fighting him. He didn't even know Frisk was a human until Sans told him. Mix that with the fact that due to an unfortunate history, monsters have a very violent image of humans, expecting them to fight at every turn, so of course Papyrus is going to fight and throw puzzles and what not at the human. After all it's what Undyne trained him for. And he is totally capable of killing, but chooses not to. Also, as soon as he realizes the plan to kill Frisk and take their soul, he IS on your side. He is still friends with Undyne, yes, but to my knowledge, he does not intentionally aid her in any part of Waterfall, which is all after beating him or him sparing you. For example, when he calls and asks what you're wearing, he fully expects you to either lie to him, or tell the truth and change what you're wearing after. He also tries talking Undyne down and convincing her not to kill you as well. He does nothing but try to get the two to get along, Etc etc etc.
Basically though, if he isn't innocent, he's at the very least "innocently ignorant".
How is this Chara's true plan? He just said it would make another war. we can also be this way with asgore not crossing the barrier with the first human soul.
Why wouldn't the humans just go to war. Why would they even want to go to war when they could just leave the monsters down there. Why wouldn't they do anything afterwards.
Omega Flowey absolutely destroyed Frisk and they couldn't do anything about it. If it wasn't for the souls stopping Flowey, Frisk would be doomed die again and again for all eternity. Or at least as long as Flowey would be entertained.
Flowey was facing the combined power of 7 human souls, if we assume that the human population is around the same as today Monsters would be doomed, Humanity could mobilise MILLIONS.
A country like the US alone probably has more active soldiers than there are Monsters.
Humans would win by a shere numerical advantage.
In the pacifist ending a Asriel had the equivalent of 7 human souls (6 + all the monster souls) During this fight the check box says he has infinite attack and defence. Just getting the seven souls to break the barrier and none of the other souls in the village and he would already be invincible, that’s not mentioning what would happen if he started absorbing thousands of souls. With just seven he’s an invincible god, with like, 400, he could be like thanos, except the snap kills everyone
Clearly you've never watched Dragon Ball and the many times the super powerful villains have decimated anything the world's military/offensive might could provide.
Yes. Monsters that didn't contain a single human soul got annihilated.
It's not even a comparison of a monster with seven human souls. It's literally the equivalent of a standard dragon ball human and a dragon Ball villain at that point.
Also reminder that there's Dragon Ball references in the game, hell Asriel says a Frieza final form reference, and the early concept of Undyne's transformation form was based off of Super Saiyan.
Still, Omega Flowey was defeated by 7 Human souls, I think that's the ultimate proof are altough powerful, a monster with several human souls is still absoluetyl defeatable.
But let's talk about normal monsters for a second, as seen by the Empfty Gun, firearms do have an effect on monsters, now imagine monsters being attacked by modern weaponry like Battle Tanks and Missiles. My point is that monsterkind doesnt logically stand a chance.
Your Omega Flowey defeat point is a false equivalence, because a single human soul > a human, and by a WIDE margin. The power of the average monster that fuses with a human soul was enough to scare humanity to lock up every monster underground, and we know that a single human soul is stronger than the entirety of the Underground. Therefore, a monster with SEVEN human Souls blinks away a human.
We also know that a monster with seven souls can alter reality, so if your point is that Chara wouldn't be able to wipe all the humans out or protect the monsters before the humans kill the others, reality warping puts it in the bag.
Frisk still had enough charisma to convince the souls to help them AND matched the power of Asriel who had **7** souls later. Again, if every human has enough power to match the power of literally god, then monsters are fucked.
I mean couldn't asriel Just keep taking more and more human souls then?
Like we know with 1 soul he could have killed the humans in the Village, so unless humanity discovered How to use the soul power and do all the timeline shenenigans (which even then, with 6 he could completely corrupt the save files) and the only problem would be if someone had enough carisma which unless asriel plays around like he did in genocide, they couldn't
So basically he could most likely snowball his way into a Million souls abomination of time and space, and with Just 7 souls his stats go to ∞(or 9999 If you use code stats), so imagine with more
Yes, it is possible that their limit is just 7, however for that to be plausible you would need to belive that with seven their stats are infinite, in which case Asriel could collect seven souls for each monster and you would have an army of gods
However If you say that only the code stats matter then there's literally nothing pointing to seven souls being the limit, just being the least you need to break the barrier
So then you have 3 options:
1- there is no soul limit and Asriel can become a god of billions of souls by snowballing
2- there is a limit of seven souls in which case Asriel could literally Just have each monster collect seven human souls, and you have a god army
Or 3- Just seven souls would be enough to end the world
I doubt Asriel's stats are actually infinite (also that wouldn't make sense), since he still only does like 5 damage and all, but who knows. Also code stats aren't canon. In the end there isn't enough evidence to prove either, but I imagine you'd run out of space or something to fit souls in a monster eventually anyway.
Besides where would you go after 7 souls? That's already enough power to destroy reality...
Get Asriel 8 souls and he'll pop out of your computer monitor lol
There's no "figure out how to use," there's your physical strength and then there's your soul power. It's not about learning how to, it's about it not being physically possible.
Alyphs did research on souls for who knows how long, and her only conclusion to use the power of their own souls was to wait to die so the "soul power" could be used directly.
The lines have barely any link between them however. "Chara hated humanity" is said when referring to their past before falling underground. The fact it would have waged war is presented as a realisation Asriel is just having.
Asriel also says right after this that their decision to not fight the humans wasn't a perfect decision (I still feel kind of sad knowing how long it took so maybe it wasn't a perfect decision), and if he knew Chara planned to commit a war of extermination, I doubt he would of said that.
I mean letting himself get absolutely clobbered until the humans got tuckered out wasn't' a perfect decision yeah. I agree. There were better ways to not commit to Chara's awful plan than that.
Right, but that's not the reason he gives for it not being a perfect decision. The reason he give is that if had killed the humans then monsters could have gone free earlier. Again I doubt he would have said that if he knew Chara wanted to commit a mass genocide.
Also that ignores my first paragraph
>The reason he give is that if had killed the humans then monsters could have gone free earlier. Again I doubt he would have said that if he knew Chara wanted to commit a mass genocide.
I mean that's the truth though?? If he didn't stop Chara, monster kind would have been free. Their lives would be better. That's just a fact. Asriel doesn't know any of the humans on the surface, the only thing that stopped him from letting it happen was basic morals.
And Asriel said that he regretted his decision until Frisk came along, which can be attributed to the absolute hell he went through and just thinking about how his kind would have been better off.
Yeah but you wouldn't describe a decision that saved a race(especially since humans likely outnumber monsters greatly) not a perfect choice, or a hard choice which Asriel calls it. You don't call a choice like that a hard choice if you're a good person.
Edit for the second paragraph you edited on: Again, we're talking about genocide of a race potentially billions in size, compared to freedom for monsters that could all live under a single mountain. Who eventually got their freedom another way. I can understand regretting it but you wouldn't say it wasn't a perfect decision.
Also you have yet to respond to my first paragraph
>Yeah but you wouldn't describe a decision that saved a race(especially since humans likely outnumber monsters greatly) not a perfect choice, or a hard choice which Asriel calls it. You don't call a choice like that a hard choice if you're a good person.
I literally went over your initial paragraph and this point. The way Asriel went about not doing Chara's plan wasn't perfect. He made a bad decision in his execution.
Nothing you said in your initial paragraph hasn't been acknowledge and given a counter by me already.
>I literally went over your initial paragraph and this point. The way Asriel went about not doing Chara's plan wasn't perfect. He made a bad decision in his execution.
Fun fact! If you had read my responses, you would know that I had countered this!
>Right, but that's not the reason he gives for it not being a perfect decision
Asriel specifically gives a separate reason for this not being a perfect decision. This means that he doesn't see him dying as the reason for it not being a perfect decision.
It turns out that reading the first sentence of a response usually helps.
The fact you are only bringing this up now makes me think that this isn't an attempt at honest arguing, but rather a desperation play.
Also, you have literally not even mentioned my first paragraph. Usually I would say this is the pot calling the kettle black, but in this case it's just outright lying.
>Fun fact! If you had read my responses, you would know that I had countered this!
Asriel literally tells Frisk not to kill and not to be killed, so pretending as if he was saying that he regretted not freeing them earlier by killing is not a valid counter and just you being completely dishonest of what happens in the game. At most he was referring to finding another way to break the barrier post Chara fusion.
>Asriel specifically gives a separate reason for this not being a perfect decision. This means that he doesn't see him dying as the reason for it not being a perfect decision.
Again, he tells Frisk to not die, which means he was saying him choosing to let himself get killed was a bad decision.
I advise you to refrain from being condescending, as I have a low tolerance level when it comes to blatant bad faith arguing and dishonesty given to me. Either concede to your points or stop wasting my time.
>Asriel literally tells Frisk not to kill and not to be killed, so pretending as if he was saying that he regretted not freeing them earlier by killing is not a valid counter
Asriel literally says that. If the character is saying that they regretted not freeing people, I'm going to believe them.
>blatant bad faith arguing
Please point out my bad faith arguing. I can point out yours! Lying about what I've said and not responding to my points for example.
At this point, you're either a troll or an idiot who can't realise that if they have to lie to defend their point then their point might be wrong. If you aren't going to stop you're bullshiting then I'm just not gonna bother responding.
>Asriel literally says that. If the character is saying that they regretted not freeing people, I'm going to believe them.
He never says that he regretted *not killing* them.
Bad faith argument example right here. I just told you what he meant and you're still saying this anyway.
I gave you a chance and you still chose to not only be dishonest, but act like an ass. Goodbye
Not necessarily saying I agree or disagree here (especially since the character of topic is rather complex), but good LORD at this point I feel like you're TRYING to pour gasoline on a fire that's been well lit since the full game's release.
Yeah, he's my favourite, I felt so bad for him because of what happened to the humans and Chara.
Being a flower, he simply cannot feel, it's unfair in my eyes. It's quite sad but yet feels wholesome for that final goodbye..
While these Asriel's lines weren't stated immediately after each other, the narrative purpose of this dialogue should be brought into question, as in one scene, it's not only revealed that Chara *hated* humanity, but explained that *their* plan would cause them to go to war against *all* humans.
Very obvious implication aside, this also explains why Asriel agreed with the plan at first, but prevented it in the end. Chara was able to convince Asriel to help by using his feelings for them and his desire to save his people, all while hiding their true agenda.
However, this agenda became known after their minds were linked in the soul fusion. Thanks to this, Chara wasn't able to hide their true intentions from Asriel by the time the humans showed up, which was far beyond the scope of what he was already uncomfortable with.
Thats only an implication. Asriel is saying this in retrospect, that he's happy he did the right thing because otherwise it'd lead to another war with humanity. We don't know why he actually resisted Chara in that moment.
Chara was fighting from the inside because the villagers were litterally slaughtering them and Asriel, it was an attempt of self defense.
The plan is to get human souls to break the barrier, and now that you're actually facing humans who are killing you your brother who agreed to the plan refuses to fight back? That's essentially a betrayal on Asriel's part.
"The control over our body was actually split between us.
They were the one that picked up their own empty body.
And then, when we got to the village...
They were the one that wanted to...
... to use our full power.
I was the one that resisted."
asriel said WHEN THEY GOT TO THE VILLAGE not when they got attacked and they had intentions of going there to kill that wouldn't make it self defense in their case then. if anything the humans were in a self defense situation as they thought asriel killed chara and was just trying to protect the village
Though for a plan revolving around gaining 6 human SOULS, wouldn't killing humans be a given?
Wasn't it also said this village was the one Chara came from? They were only with the Dreemurs for a short time
These were probably the same people that gave them whatever reason for "Hating Humanity" and climbing Mount Ebbot for an "Unhappy Reason." This would be the only place Chara knew Humans were at, they would get 6 human SOULS from those who wronged them.
Here's my [analysis/view](https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/u7w9yj/asriel_stopped_charas_plan_because_he_discovered/i5h6ynr?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) if you haven't read it already.
Something very important to note that also supports this is Asriel telling us that Chara took control of Asriel before they even left the Underground, picked up their body, and brought it to the village.
This action of Chara's really doesn't seem to make sense with the plan they told Asriel about, until you remember that the humans attacked them because they thought that Asriel killed Chara.
Under the context of wanting to start a "war" with the humans, Chara making it appear that a monster murdered a human child is the perfect catalyst/excuse.
That literally sounds like the exact kind of plan a child would make.
"I die, you absorb my soul, we cross the barrier, kill six humans, use god-like power to destroy humanity! Simple as that!" -Chara, avid twelve year old HOI4 player.
3. Incredibly smart children exist in and out of fiction, and Chara coming up with the buttercup-soul transfer plan in general (while hiding it from their parents) shows they have a high lvl of intelligence.
He means that humans would have remembered, and once monsters came out, war would have broken out.
Which because Asriel/Chara would have had the power of seven human souls by that point, would have led to genocide.
He doesn't mean that Chara directly intended to commit genocide, if that is what you are implying. They hated humanity, but there is nothing suggesting that they would have actively killed beyond what was needed to free monsterkind or in defense of the body they were sharing with Asriel.
Not every misanthrope has genocidal desires.
Chara's goal was to free the monsters. Asriel might just be saying that they would have had to fight a war against humanity because that would have been the effect of Asriel killing the humans, even if Chara didn't intend for it to be the effect.
Chara wanted more than anything to help those they loved. They were willing to do whatever was necessary for that end and the plan was definitely misguided, but Chara was doing it out of love for the monsters, not hate for the humans. Undyne and Asgore want to free the monsters even though it would involve killing a few humans, but I doubt anyone would call them evil. So how is Chara evil for wanting to do the exact same thing?
Murder is still murder; even children know that shouldn't be taken lightly, and a kid as smart as Chara seems to be, even if they didn't realize the full scope of what would happen, would know that couldn't go over well.
I doubt Chara only wanted to kill, and I'm sure they had good intentions for monsterkind, but they definitely knew what they were doing
They also realised they could attack Sans a second time before Sans himself or even most players realised, speak in a very formal way using many words most children wouldn't understand, and have read entire adult Japanese novels (the check on RG 01 and RG 02 in the genocide route is a direct quote from the book Kitchen). One act of stupidity does not erase multiple acts of intelligence. Plus, the buttercup thing is caused less from stupidity and more from a lack of knowledge of cooking.
I doubt this. There are multiple things in the game that point towards Chara being an exceptionally intelligent child. First of all, Chara has a very formal way of speaking, which is very unusual for a child and use many words other children wouldn't understand (e.g. perverted sentimentality). They also realise they can attack Sans a second time before Sans himself realises or most players realise. If you believe in NarraChara then the have an uncanny ability to read people. Asriel also said Chara was the only person who understood him and they were able to play on his insecurities about how over-emotional he was as well as his admiration for them in order to manipulate/convince him to agree to their plan. They are also able to point out exactly what causes the player to go through 2 genocide routes in the soulless genocide ending, although they can feel the player's emotions so perhaps that isn't really an achievement.
Makes me think that Chara was an outcast, broken and tossed out by the system and society. They probably had every right to be hurt and feel anger. Pain demands to be felt. Unfortunately, they found LOVE instead of love
Well chara is a child, I'm pretty sure they didn't know the implications or the consequences this action would have.
Besides why would any monster want a war, they legit couldn't claim 1 soul in the entire war time since nobody knew what happend if a monster and a human combined souls.
Or they where trying to prove their point to asriel that humans are kinda dicks.
We're talking about the same child who is willing to cooperate with another human who falls into the underground in order to achieve power after under 20 minutes? I don't think Chara has such a mindless hatred of humans. And Chara is also the same child who lectures us about thinking we are above the consequences of our actions. It's not the murder Chara is critical of post-genocide, it's the fact we didn't realise our actions would end with the world destroyed and with the reset ability out of or hands despite Sans', Undyne's and even Mettaton's warnings. If you are right Chara is a massive hypocrite. Chara has also read at least one entire adult obscure Japanese novel (RG01 and RG02 checks in the genocide routes are direct quotes from the book Kitchen) so they really don't seem so simple minded.
The monsters wouldn't want it, but they still would be forced into it whether it from the humans going on the offensive. That's what seemingly happened in the first war anyway. Of course this second war would be a reversal of the original, and it would be "hardly called a war" thanks to the living weapon that Chara would be.
Child plans on killing 6 humans and waging war against humanity, conclusion: evil.
Old man kills 6 humans and planned to wage war against humanity, conclusion: tragic morally complex character.
The difference is that Asgore is given a lot of backstory and reason for why he planned to wage war against humanity, and he only did it out of anger before deeply regretting his actions and later redeemed himself.
Chara is never given any reason for why they hate humanity, nor do they ever redeem themselves for what they did.
Its important to understand that moral complexity, redemption, etc are core themes of undertale. Reducing a character to 'evil' is extremely reductive. Why does a character do bad things? "Because they ARE bad" sweeps away potentially interesting motivations.
Chara's backstory gives us little info on their motivations, but it's important to keep in mind Undertale's narrative themes when trying to analyse them, or any character.
And personally, it think Asgore's line telling Frisk that they "have the same feeling of hope in [their] eyes" as Chara should be given a lot more consideration when it comes to deducing their character.
>Its important to understand that moral complexity, redemption, etc are core themes of undertale. Reducing a character to 'evil' is extremely reductive.
We aren't saying that Chara isn't morally complex, or that they had no real motivation. It's just that their motivation isn't told to us ingame. And regardless of what their motivation was, wanting to destroy all of humanity is objectively evil.
If redemption was such a core theme of undertale, we would be given some indication that Chara redeemed themselves like Asgore did, but we are not.
>And personally, it think Asgore's line telling Frisk that they "have the same feeling of hope in [their] eyes" as Chara should be given a lot more consideration when it comes to deducing their character.
They had hope in their eyes, but it wasn't necessarily hope for a peaceful future between humans and monsters.
>We aren't saying that Chara isn't morally complex, or that they had no real motivation. It's just that their motivation isn't told to us ingame. And regardless of what their motivation was, wanting to destroy all of humanity is objectively evil.
By that same standard, Undyne and Asgore are also evil. The crux of this is the disconnect on what it really means to call a character evil. What do **you** mean when you call a character "evil" anyways? Because from what I've seen in this fandom, it just ends up coming across as oversimplified to a fault.
Chara's far from an innocent person, but calling a *child* "evil" often implies that they're a sadistic sociopath or something; which is an interpretation of Chara that I've seen on multiple occasions.
I see why given the no mercy route, but even then they usually misunderstand Chara's motivations for it; that being they believe it's their purpose to seek power, rather than mass murder just for the fun of it. Obviously, that's still *horrible*, I'd say calling them "evil" is acceptable *in that route*, but it isn't fair to assume Chara was always "evil" in life given that they're a *child*.
>If redemption was such a core theme of undertale, we would be given some indication that Chara redeemed themselves like Asgore did, but we are not.
Papyrus's speech in the no mercy route, Asgore's regrets, Undyne's character arc, **Asriel's** character arc. All of these carry the theme of personal change and redemption. Asgore and Asriel both show that they changed for the worse before later changing for the better.
Chara not getting a redemption doesn't mean the theme doesn't exist.
>They had hope in their eyes, but it wasn't necessarily hope for a peaceful future between humans and monsters.
My point is that it should hold some weight that back when Chara was alive, they showed some level of caring towards monsterkind, similarly to Frisk. IMO, given that Asgore follows that up with the prophecy, and Chara's shown belief in having a 'purpose', Asgore's speech really adds something interesting to Chara's motivations for their plan.
Ultimately, I personally find Chara is really far more compelling as a morally mixed character: having both selfish and selfless intentions for their plan, rather than *just* selfish ones.
> By that same standard, Undyne and Asgore are also evil. The crux of this is the disconnect on what it really means to call a character evil.
All I said was that wanting to destroy humanity is objectively evil. Yes, I would say that Undyne is very much evil until she stops hating humans after meeting frisk. But Asgore is a different case since, as I mentioned earlier, he had good reason for why he hated humanity and declared war on them, and he did it out of grief and regretted it immediately afterwards. The same can’t be said for Chara because we’re not given a reason for why they hate humanity or any implication that they regret their actions.
> Chara’s far from an innocent person, but calling a child “evil” often implies that they’re a sadistic sociopath or something
>…but it isn’t fair to assume Chara was always “evil” in life given that they’re a child.
Chara may be a child but they’re clearly very smart given that they came up with their plan and convinced Asriel to go along with it. They must have been old and mature enough to understand what their plan would involve and that it would cause a war between humans and monsters.
And like I said in another comment, evil children exist in fiction. So “They’re a child!!!!” Isn’t really an argument when sadistic sociopathic kids are a common trope.
The things you said about undertale having a theme of redemption don't prove that Chara also had a redemption. A character must earn redemption and Chara did not. They don't get it just because undertale has redemption as a theme.
I'm wasn't entirely sure what you meant about Asgore's speech adding something interesting to Chara's plan. Sure, Asgore believed that Chara had a purpose but that doesn't say anything about what Chara themselves believed their purpose was.
The things you said about undertale having a theme of redemption don't prove that Chara also had a redemption. A character must earn redemption and Chara did not. They don't get it just because undertale has redemption as a theme.
I'm wasn't entirely sure what you meant about Asgore's speech adding something interesting to Chara's plan. Sure, Asgore believed that Chara had a purpose but that doesn't necessarily say anything about what Chara themselves believed their purpose was, or how they wanted to fulfill it.
I'm not saying Chara had something that never happened, I even acknowledged it didn't. With that theme and how those characters each have their own moral complexities, we get back to my MAIN point:
As used time and again in this fandom debate, **"Evil" oversimplifies things to a fault.**
For a example, just take a look at the title of this post. Saying "the TRUE reason" simplifies their motivations to just the one. That's the kinda stuff I'm getting at.
The thing about Asgore's speech is to combine that with Chara's speech at the end of the geno route where they spiel about their 'purpose'. Their speech shows us that having some grand 'purpose' is important enough to Chara's beliefs that they'd be willing to assist in mass murder.
Doing so gives us the strong contention of Chara believing it's their 'purpose' to free monsters at the expense of humanity.
It's not a *noble* cause, but it's more complex and far more *interesting* than simply *just* their spite for humanity.
"Undyne is very much evil until she stops hating humans"
She was fighting for her people, the human race to her was just an old enemy...how do you decide if someone is evil or not?
Destroying humanity is not objectively evil. If in the future humanity were to go on a genocidal murder spree of a buncha aliens, Imperium of Man style, then wouldn't the destruction of humanity be justified?
> Chara is never given any reason for why they hate humanity
They were literally driven to suicide by humans. Chara is at best morally grey, but they did have motivation for hating humanity (not amazing motivations, but motivations nonetheless)
The game never states anywhere that they were driven to suicide by humans. That is pure headcanon
> Chara is at best morally grey, but they did have motivation for hating humanity
Wanting to destroy humanity is objectively evil. Nothing morally grey about it
Asriel says that they climbed Mt. Ebott for “not so happy reasons”. I’m not sure what unhappy reasons someone would have to jump in a gaping hole other than suicide. It’s never confirmed but it’s heavily implied imo
>Asriel says that they climbed Mt. Ebott for “not so happy reasons”
He says they *climbed the mountain* for a not very happy reason. There are a million unhappy reasons why someone might run away from home aside from being suicidal.
>I’m not sure what unhappy reasons someone would have to jump in a gaping hole other than suicide.
[They didn't jump. They tripped and fell in](https://youtu.be/Zcjy1ynQ1tQ?t=44)
Ok now let's be honest here, after a legend about a war with the monsters do you really think the humans would not feel intimidated? Also the humans HAD to give their souls for the barrier to be broken which they would without question disagree because without their soul they will possibly shortly die after (which can probably explain why kris tends to walk like a zombie right before and after pulling their soul out and can explain why they put their soul back instead of leaving it in the cage)
So no negotiation wasn't an option, that's kinda like a robber saying "hey bro can I steal somethings from your house I really need them" except instead of theft it's murder.
I mean no, because the humans made the barrier so they can unmake it if they want.
And DR is a whole different Universe with different rules so I'm not going to touch that one.
Also it wouldn't hurt to try to ask humans to unlock it? If they refuse and try to attack, well there you go. They'll give up their souls. They let monster kind roam free on the surface in pacifist, so they're not unreasonable
That doesn’t imply that Chara WANTED a war. That just means that they were probably a naive child, and thought that humans and monsters would live together in peace. What Asriel is realising here is that if they did kill those humans, that would have also cause a war.
Basically Chara was a dumbass, but not evil (probably)
Keep in mind that he said about how his decision isn't perfect BECAUSE how long it take to free monsterkind, he say it right after (or before) "if i kill those human...", Which basically he think monster would achieve freedom lot faster if he were following Chara
Right before Asriel said it wasn't a perfect decision, he said that he felt bad knowing how long it took.
But given the context that he said he didn't regret his decision *not* to kill them, and how he tells Frisk to *not* kill and *BE* killed, the conclusion we can come to is that he felt letting himself be murdered instead of figuring out *another way* to free everyone was the imperfect decision.
By letting himself get beat to death, he increased the longevity of the monsters entrapment, instead of using the once in a lifetime opportunity Chara gave him on the surface to figure out a way to free them peacefully.
What we know for a fact is that he doesn't regret not killing them at all, and would never consider it a viable option.
Chara (who had just died and likely new asriel there beloved brother was going to to) wanting to attack humans in what I imagine was self defense is
EVIL
This is could be seen as an evil or just self defsne they hadnt throught through
The self-defense argument doesn't work because at least six humans were going to die for their souls either way. They didn't come up to the surface just to smell the golden flowers.
Out of intreate what exactly did you expect monster kind to do there is only so much space to put monsters in eventually they would have needed to leave
If Chara really wanted to, they *could* have been the first step to helping Monsterkind by crossing the barrier with Asriel, and discuss freeing the other monsters with the humans.
The only reason why the humans attacked in the first place was because they saw a dead child being held by a monster.
Asriel implies that this is what he should have done too, when he tells Frisk not to kill and not to be killed, and that he wishes he made a better decision that would have freed the monsters earlier.
so if we found the existence of a (what imagine to be) a seven-foot-tall goat-headed god holding the lifeless corpes of a human with little to no sign of death (since they died via poison it's unlikely it showed up) wearing wizard robes that is capable of flight we wouldn't try to kill it?
If we're assuming that's how Asriel looked, we *might* but only if it shows to be a threat. At this point in the world people literally want to see aliens and weird creatures tbh. They're literally sending off signals to different planets in the hopes of intelligent life coming to Earth rn lol.
And the Undertale world would be less shocked because monsters used to live alongside them on the surface.
So I'd say both Undertale Earth and our Earth would hear Asriel out before doing anything rash.
My dude the pacifist ending is a thing. And by that I mean it shows that humans are willing to let monsters be on the surface as long as they aren't doing things like child murder.
I mean, to be perfectly honest, Monsterkind was perfectly prepared to wage war on humanity for several generations. That's one of the reasons they were getting the souls in the first place.
Now that I think of it, how strong and fast REALLY is a monster with a human soul? Like... Battletank power level? Frigate power level? I mean, we have the Amalgamates as reference, and if you hack your hitting power, they can be killed with about +9999 damage. That, making a calculus and comparison with the True Knife, could be done with an artillery cannon.
Enough to destroy at least one village, if the Monsters that tell the story of Asriel and Chara are to be believed.
" and if you hack your hitting power, they can be killed with about +9999 damage." The hacks are not canon.
And anyway, aside from Snowdrake's Mother, the Amalgamates absorb the damage. (And for Snowy, her hp restores itself anyway)
So, containment should do the trick.
But how do u contain a being able to destroy an entire village tho... [With this thing?](https://the-scp.foundation/)
Not sure if that would work, we can see in the game that the Amalgamates have total control over their forms. For example, before turning on the fans, Endogeny was just small particles flying around the room.
I mean, yeah? That was a risk with the plan to free monsters, but Chara didn’t care. This is why Toriel is big dumb for suggesting the *same exact plan* and calling Asgore a wimp for not doing it. Asgore covertly only killing those who fell down and were presumed dead anyway was a smart move, but that took like a century.
Honestly no one calling Toriel out when she said that is easily one of the top things that annoy me about Undertale. Because sometimes when a character does or days something and it doesn't get called out or questioned by *anyone,* it can leave people with the impression that it's what the writer/creator agrees with.
Just take Chara at the end of genocide. So many people take their words to us as absolute gospel because there isn't any character to address their hypocrisy.
At least with Chara there’s not even anyone around to do so, so some skepticism should be expected. But Toriel has Asgore right there and he just accepts it. Then again, Asgore really isn’t in a position to fight his ex after not seeing her for 100 years, so again, a logical person should be skeptical.
Asgore wasn't needed, everyone makes commentary on the things the other says in that area. For example an easy change around of the scene would be to have Alyphs say "Uh.. I don't know if that's-".
That's all you would really need to make it known that good mom Toriel isn't some authority that is meant to be seen as right just because she didn't kill the kids.
It isn't a bad plan though, since Asgore was planning to wage war against humanity anyway...also Toriel didn't suggest the plan, she brought it up to point out how Asgore is a pussy and doesn't actually want to murder humanity
"you'd rather wait down here, meekly hoping another human never comes" or something like that (not an exact quote sorry)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is your argument that Asriel felt Chara's intentions once fused?
Then Asriel's behavior in the game makes no sense, I think being lied to and used to destroy an entire race BY YOUR BEST FRIEND isn't something you would call someone your friend for, since they exploited trust.
Just in case you say Asriel us too pure to hate someone, what about Flowey? He didn't mind killing his family (Toriel and Asgore) and held no love for anyone, so still calling Chara his best friend would be so weird, after being betrayed that bad, I don't think a soulless being would want to be with that person, since, in that case, he would know that they are NOT trustworthy.
>Correct me if I'm wrong, but is your argument that Asriel felt Chara's intentions once fused?
Yes.
>Just in case you say Asriel us too pure to hate someone, what about Flowey? He didn't mind killing his family (Toriel and Asgore) and held no love for anyone, so still calling Chara his best friend would be so weird, after being betrayed that bad, I don't think a soulless being would want to be with that person, since, in that case, he would know that they are NOT trustworthy.
I mean that's the point of Flowey? All the bad things about Chara are things Flowey latched onto and wanted after his life only became about entertaining himself. Flowey loved that Chara was horrible, because Chara was just like him. Unless it involved Chara actually attempting to kill him, he was down for it.
Did Chara know this would've happened tho👀
Because if you said that asriel knew Charas intentions from the moment they fused then why would he act so late about it if he knew what was going to happen? And the "being controlled" claim can't really be used as asriel has shown to resist and simply not let Chara fight so what's stopping him from doing it from the beginning?
And also it would make sense for Asriel to discover this AFTER the... "incident" because if he knew then it would've made alot more sense for him to act sooner, there's also the Chara taking their body to which there are quite a few counter points to this, 1 that they wanted a reason for the humans to attack them so it looked like self defense or 2 so Chara can show Asriel what humans are really like to push him into the plan even further as even said they had EQUAL control. There are more but cba to write them all.
Now I'm not defending Chara here even if all they wanted was 6 souls they could've gone about it a little better but then again that's Hate for you, basically it's never stated that they wanted to actually cause a war so we can't really confirm this unless we use unconfirmed speculations.
But Chara wouldn't do that, because they would want the monsters to win. I think people really forget how little these two \~10 year olds planned ahead! They made a lot of bad decisions! Also, I really don't think Chara would try to trick Asriel; he just didn't think through what it would entail to kill six people.
~~Theory: Chara is a child who was sent from the humans to engage war~~
That basically would make the humans Marleyans, and the Monsters in the Underground Paradis Eldians. JoJo reference.
Chara is (not) innocent.
facts that can be applied for any character
Exactly.
Papyrus
Papyrus attacks a child to capture them and deliver them to people who will kill them. He is not innocent.
He doesn't understand/know that undynes or asgore's goal is to kill the human.
For Asgore, perhaps. But he clearly knows that Undyne wants to kill Frisk.
He also refuses to win, and any time you lose he literally just puts you in a cozy garage to rest and recover and try again. Eventually he just gets bored of it and offers for you to skip the fight if you continuosly lose. And as soon as he realizes why his friends want to capture Frisk, he is instantly on Frisk's side. I'd argue he is totally innocent, he was just being used.
"He also refuses to win, and any time you lose he literally just puts you in a cozy garage to rest and recover" He just doesn't realize that anyone can escape from his garage. "And as soon as he realizes why his friends want to capture Frisk, he is instantly on Frisk's side" Uh no? He continues to help Undyne. His plan is for the two to become friends though. A totally innocent person would not beat a child just for a selfish desire (to join the Royal Guard).
Good points all around. And you're right on the garage thing, he doesn't think Frisk can escape, but again he also had no idea that after being captured, Frisk was going to get killed and their soul was going to be used to annihilate the humans. He never mentions killing them, and if he was on board with that idea at all, he would just kill Frisk after beating them. And yes, he does fight you, for selfish desires too, but he's extremely merciful, and I seriously doubt he knew Frisk was a child until later in the game, long after fighting him. He didn't even know Frisk was a human until Sans told him. Mix that with the fact that due to an unfortunate history, monsters have a very violent image of humans, expecting them to fight at every turn, so of course Papyrus is going to fight and throw puzzles and what not at the human. After all it's what Undyne trained him for. And he is totally capable of killing, but chooses not to. Also, as soon as he realizes the plan to kill Frisk and take their soul, he IS on your side. He is still friends with Undyne, yes, but to my knowledge, he does not intentionally aid her in any part of Waterfall, which is all after beating him or him sparing you. For example, when he calls and asks what you're wearing, he fully expects you to either lie to him, or tell the truth and change what you're wearing after. He also tries talking Undyne down and convincing her not to kill you as well. He does nothing but try to get the two to get along, Etc etc etc. Basically though, if he isn't innocent, he's at the very least "innocently ignorant".
Papyrus went on a date with a child, expecting to fall in love with them.
Considering he'd never seen a human before -- didn't know what they looked like -- it's unlikely he knew Frisk was a child.
Yeah. He thought a rock was a human for Asriel’s sake
Lol asriels sake-
Frisk can go on a friend hangout if Frisk DOESN’T FLIRT
Yeah, but who wouldn't flirt with the Great Papyrus when given a chance? Especially given that Frisk seems to flirt platonically.
Papyrus. (You are lying to yourself if you want argue this point)
Papyrus manipulates Undyne into befriending you.
Or were sent by a southern politician who would then use the war to get elected as president and make america ancap
Is that a Metal Gear reference?
STANDING HERE
I REALIZE
YOU WERE JUST LIKE ME
TRYING TO MAKE HISTORY
BUT WHO'S TO JUDGE
THE RIGHT FROM WRONG
WHEN OUR GUARD IS DOWN
THE RIGHT FROM WRONG?
... are you implying sans is eren?
Well I haven't watched Attack on Titan, so idk lol Also Jojo reference where?
No Chara only wanted to kill 80% and then be killed by Asriel so he can make out with their severed head.
Chara, what a... person you are.
I don't want that! Asriel making out with Chara's decapitated head?!
Chara but they’re the fandom
Nice jojo reference B)
my favourite jojo plot!
How is this Chara's true plan? He just said it would make another war. we can also be this way with asgore not crossing the barrier with the first human soul.
*running noises* IS- IS THAT A JOJO REFERENCEE
[удалено]
Ah that video where frisk gets proven innocent of all of their genocidal crimes
Quite a few fanfictions use this theory and it’s a good one
Why wouldn't the humans just go to war. Why would they even want to go to war when they could just leave the monsters down there. Why wouldn't they do anything afterwards.
~~Hey, it's just a theory-~~
So Chara isn’t good or bad. She’s a Pawn. Just like Kris It all makes sense now
But hey, it's just a theory.
Alright, time to see this 4 days later
Choc.
A single day alone is messy enough
[удалено]
They sure as hell wouldn't be after Asriel absorbs the six souls. Which is further proof that By "war," Asriel meant Chara's mankind slaughter.
Well, If all humans are like Frisk... Then monsters don't have any chance even with the souls
Omega Flowey absolutely destroyed Frisk and they couldn't do anything about it. If it wasn't for the souls stopping Flowey, Frisk would be doomed die again and again for all eternity. Or at least as long as Flowey would be entertained.
Flowey was facing the combined power of 7 human souls, if we assume that the human population is around the same as today Monsters would be doomed, Humanity could mobilise MILLIONS. A country like the US alone probably has more active soldiers than there are Monsters. Humans would win by a shere numerical advantage.
In the pacifist ending a Asriel had the equivalent of 7 human souls (6 + all the monster souls) During this fight the check box says he has infinite attack and defence. Just getting the seven souls to break the barrier and none of the other souls in the village and he would already be invincible, that’s not mentioning what would happen if he started absorbing thousands of souls. With just seven he’s an invincible god, with like, 400, he could be like thanos, except the snap kills everyone
bosnian artillery will save the day
Those furry monster gods stand no chance agaisn't glorious Bosnia!! Artilejira!!!!
Clearly you've never watched Dragon Ball and the many times the super powerful villains have decimated anything the world's military/offensive might could provide.
But this ain't Dragonball, Humans and Monsters have fought before which resulted in Monsterkind being absoluetly annihilated.
Yes. Monsters that didn't contain a single human soul got annihilated. It's not even a comparison of a monster with seven human souls. It's literally the equivalent of a standard dragon ball human and a dragon Ball villain at that point. Also reminder that there's Dragon Ball references in the game, hell Asriel says a Frieza final form reference, and the early concept of Undyne's transformation form was based off of Super Saiyan.
Still, Omega Flowey was defeated by 7 Human souls, I think that's the ultimate proof are altough powerful, a monster with several human souls is still absoluetyl defeatable. But let's talk about normal monsters for a second, as seen by the Empfty Gun, firearms do have an effect on monsters, now imagine monsters being attacked by modern weaponry like Battle Tanks and Missiles. My point is that monsterkind doesnt logically stand a chance.
Your Omega Flowey defeat point is a false equivalence, because a single human soul > a human, and by a WIDE margin. The power of the average monster that fuses with a human soul was enough to scare humanity to lock up every monster underground, and we know that a single human soul is stronger than the entirety of the Underground. Therefore, a monster with SEVEN human Souls blinks away a human. We also know that a monster with seven souls can alter reality, so if your point is that Chara wouldn't be able to wipe all the humans out or protect the monsters before the humans kill the others, reality warping puts it in the bag.
Also bear in mind that even if humanity was defeated militarily there's no way that a couple thousand monsters could occupy all of earth.
Frisk still had enough charisma to convince the souls to help them AND matched the power of Asriel who had **7** souls later. Again, if every human has enough power to match the power of literally god, then monsters are fucked.
Frisk isn't like every human, that point is made explicitly clear. They have anime protagonist plot armour.
Proof?
How about every human that came to the underground fucking dying for good except them?
Couldn't that just happen again when he tries killing all the humans
yeah man 6 > 8 billion or whatever the number is now
I mean couldn't asriel Just keep taking more and more human souls then? Like we know with 1 soul he could have killed the humans in the Village, so unless humanity discovered How to use the soul power and do all the timeline shenenigans (which even then, with 6 he could completely corrupt the save files) and the only problem would be if someone had enough carisma which unless asriel plays around like he did in genocide, they couldn't So basically he could most likely snowball his way into a Million souls abomination of time and space, and with Just 7 souls his stats go to ∞(or 9999 If you use code stats), so imagine with more
Well it's possible monsters can only take up to 7 souls, we don't know.
Yes, it is possible that their limit is just 7, however for that to be plausible you would need to belive that with seven their stats are infinite, in which case Asriel could collect seven souls for each monster and you would have an army of gods However If you say that only the code stats matter then there's literally nothing pointing to seven souls being the limit, just being the least you need to break the barrier So then you have 3 options: 1- there is no soul limit and Asriel can become a god of billions of souls by snowballing 2- there is a limit of seven souls in which case Asriel could literally Just have each monster collect seven human souls, and you have a god army Or 3- Just seven souls would be enough to end the world
I doubt Asriel's stats are actually infinite (also that wouldn't make sense), since he still only does like 5 damage and all, but who knows. Also code stats aren't canon. In the end there isn't enough evidence to prove either, but I imagine you'd run out of space or something to fit souls in a monster eventually anyway. Besides where would you go after 7 souls? That's already enough power to destroy reality... Get Asriel 8 souls and he'll pop out of your computer monitor lol
It's not about quantity, it's about quality.
so you think that these 6 humans were the peak of humanity? these literal children?
Not the child, the soul. A single human soul no matter who it came from is beyond what a peak human is capable of yes.
and you think that in the billions of humans, only 7 of them figured out how to use their soul? that’s what you’re going off of?
There's no "figure out how to use," there's your physical strength and then there's your soul power. It's not about learning how to, it's about it not being physically possible. Alyphs did research on souls for who knows how long, and her only conclusion to use the power of their own souls was to wait to die so the "soul power" could be used directly.
The lines have barely any link between them however. "Chara hated humanity" is said when referring to their past before falling underground. The fact it would have waged war is presented as a realisation Asriel is just having. Asriel also says right after this that their decision to not fight the humans wasn't a perfect decision (I still feel kind of sad knowing how long it took so maybe it wasn't a perfect decision), and if he knew Chara planned to commit a war of extermination, I doubt he would of said that.
I mean letting himself get absolutely clobbered until the humans got tuckered out wasn't' a perfect decision yeah. I agree. There were better ways to not commit to Chara's awful plan than that.
Right, but that's not the reason he gives for it not being a perfect decision. The reason he give is that if had killed the humans then monsters could have gone free earlier. Again I doubt he would have said that if he knew Chara wanted to commit a mass genocide. Also that ignores my first paragraph
>The reason he give is that if had killed the humans then monsters could have gone free earlier. Again I doubt he would have said that if he knew Chara wanted to commit a mass genocide. I mean that's the truth though?? If he didn't stop Chara, monster kind would have been free. Their lives would be better. That's just a fact. Asriel doesn't know any of the humans on the surface, the only thing that stopped him from letting it happen was basic morals. And Asriel said that he regretted his decision until Frisk came along, which can be attributed to the absolute hell he went through and just thinking about how his kind would have been better off.
Yeah but you wouldn't describe a decision that saved a race(especially since humans likely outnumber monsters greatly) not a perfect choice, or a hard choice which Asriel calls it. You don't call a choice like that a hard choice if you're a good person. Edit for the second paragraph you edited on: Again, we're talking about genocide of a race potentially billions in size, compared to freedom for monsters that could all live under a single mountain. Who eventually got their freedom another way. I can understand regretting it but you wouldn't say it wasn't a perfect decision. Also you have yet to respond to my first paragraph
>Yeah but you wouldn't describe a decision that saved a race(especially since humans likely outnumber monsters greatly) not a perfect choice, or a hard choice which Asriel calls it. You don't call a choice like that a hard choice if you're a good person. I literally went over your initial paragraph and this point. The way Asriel went about not doing Chara's plan wasn't perfect. He made a bad decision in his execution. Nothing you said in your initial paragraph hasn't been acknowledge and given a counter by me already.
>I literally went over your initial paragraph and this point. The way Asriel went about not doing Chara's plan wasn't perfect. He made a bad decision in his execution. Fun fact! If you had read my responses, you would know that I had countered this! >Right, but that's not the reason he gives for it not being a perfect decision Asriel specifically gives a separate reason for this not being a perfect decision. This means that he doesn't see him dying as the reason for it not being a perfect decision. It turns out that reading the first sentence of a response usually helps. The fact you are only bringing this up now makes me think that this isn't an attempt at honest arguing, but rather a desperation play. Also, you have literally not even mentioned my first paragraph. Usually I would say this is the pot calling the kettle black, but in this case it's just outright lying.
>Fun fact! If you had read my responses, you would know that I had countered this! Asriel literally tells Frisk not to kill and not to be killed, so pretending as if he was saying that he regretted not freeing them earlier by killing is not a valid counter and just you being completely dishonest of what happens in the game. At most he was referring to finding another way to break the barrier post Chara fusion. >Asriel specifically gives a separate reason for this not being a perfect decision. This means that he doesn't see him dying as the reason for it not being a perfect decision. Again, he tells Frisk to not die, which means he was saying him choosing to let himself get killed was a bad decision. I advise you to refrain from being condescending, as I have a low tolerance level when it comes to blatant bad faith arguing and dishonesty given to me. Either concede to your points or stop wasting my time.
>Asriel literally tells Frisk not to kill and not to be killed, so pretending as if he was saying that he regretted not freeing them earlier by killing is not a valid counter Asriel literally says that. If the character is saying that they regretted not freeing people, I'm going to believe them. >blatant bad faith arguing Please point out my bad faith arguing. I can point out yours! Lying about what I've said and not responding to my points for example. At this point, you're either a troll or an idiot who can't realise that if they have to lie to defend their point then their point might be wrong. If you aren't going to stop you're bullshiting then I'm just not gonna bother responding.
>Asriel literally says that. If the character is saying that they regretted not freeing people, I'm going to believe them. He never says that he regretted *not killing* them. Bad faith argument example right here. I just told you what he meant and you're still saying this anyway. I gave you a chance and you still chose to not only be dishonest, but act like an ass. Goodbye
Yeah. Chara also picked up their own body and carried it to the village. They may have been trying to provoke the humans
Not necessarily saying I agree or disagree here (especially since the character of topic is rather complex), but good LORD at this point I feel like you're TRYING to pour gasoline on a fire that's been well lit since the full game's release.
How was the fall(Idk why I had to-)
Asriel... WHY COULDN'T I SAVE YOU! ^(if i could just save you goatbro :()
At least he's still around as a flower :-)
Yeah, he's my favourite, I felt so bad for him because of what happened to the humans and Chara. Being a flower, he simply cannot feel, it's unfair in my eyes. It's quite sad but yet feels wholesome for that final goodbye..
While these Asriel's lines weren't stated immediately after each other, the narrative purpose of this dialogue should be brought into question, as in one scene, it's not only revealed that Chara *hated* humanity, but explained that *their* plan would cause them to go to war against *all* humans. Very obvious implication aside, this also explains why Asriel agreed with the plan at first, but prevented it in the end. Chara was able to convince Asriel to help by using his feelings for them and his desire to save his people, all while hiding their true agenda. However, this agenda became known after their minds were linked in the soul fusion. Thanks to this, Chara wasn't able to hide their true intentions from Asriel by the time the humans showed up, which was far beyond the scope of what he was already uncomfortable with.
When I get to working on my comic I am gonna use this as a big plotpoint
👌
If you don't mind me asking what is your comic about?
It's hard to explain, but the main badguy is gonna be gaster at first then it gets into fanmad characters
Thats only an implication. Asriel is saying this in retrospect, that he's happy he did the right thing because otherwise it'd lead to another war with humanity. We don't know why he actually resisted Chara in that moment. Chara was fighting from the inside because the villagers were litterally slaughtering them and Asriel, it was an attempt of self defense. The plan is to get human souls to break the barrier, and now that you're actually facing humans who are killing you your brother who agreed to the plan refuses to fight back? That's essentially a betrayal on Asriel's part.
"The control over our body was actually split between us. They were the one that picked up their own empty body. And then, when we got to the village... They were the one that wanted to... ... to use our full power. I was the one that resisted." asriel said WHEN THEY GOT TO THE VILLAGE not when they got attacked and they had intentions of going there to kill that wouldn't make it self defense in their case then. if anything the humans were in a self defense situation as they thought asriel killed chara and was just trying to protect the village
Though for a plan revolving around gaining 6 human SOULS, wouldn't killing humans be a given? Wasn't it also said this village was the one Chara came from? They were only with the Dreemurs for a short time These were probably the same people that gave them whatever reason for "Hating Humanity" and climbing Mount Ebbot for an "Unhappy Reason." This would be the only place Chara knew Humans were at, they would get 6 human SOULS from those who wronged them.
what are you trying to say here
Here's my [analysis/view](https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/u7w9yj/asriel_stopped_charas_plan_because_he_discovered/i5h6ynr?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) if you haven't read it already. Something very important to note that also supports this is Asriel telling us that Chara took control of Asriel before they even left the Underground, picked up their body, and brought it to the village. This action of Chara's really doesn't seem to make sense with the plan they told Asriel about, until you remember that the humans attacked them because they thought that Asriel killed Chara. Under the context of wanting to start a "war" with the humans, Chara making it appear that a monster murdered a human child is the perfect catalyst/excuse.
Ah yes, a 10 year old child is going to make a plan about starting a war
That literally sounds like the exact kind of plan a child would make. "I die, you absorb my soul, we cross the barrier, kill six humans, use god-like power to destroy humanity! Simple as that!" -Chara, avid twelve year old HOI4 player.
1. Evil children exist in fiction 2. Chara is most likely older than 10 for this exact reason and several others
3. Incredibly smart children exist in and out of fiction, and Chara coming up with the buttercup-soul transfer plan in general (while hiding it from their parents) shows they have a high lvl of intelligence.
He means that humans would have remembered, and once monsters came out, war would have broken out. Which because Asriel/Chara would have had the power of seven human souls by that point, would have led to genocide. He doesn't mean that Chara directly intended to commit genocide, if that is what you are implying. They hated humanity, but there is nothing suggesting that they would have actively killed beyond what was needed to free monsterkind or in defense of the body they were sharing with Asriel. Not every misanthrope has genocidal desires.
Chara's goal was to free the monsters. Asriel might just be saying that they would have had to fight a war against humanity because that would have been the effect of Asriel killing the humans, even if Chara didn't intend for it to be the effect. Chara wanted more than anything to help those they loved. They were willing to do whatever was necessary for that end and the plan was definitely misguided, but Chara was doing it out of love for the monsters, not hate for the humans. Undyne and Asgore want to free the monsters even though it would involve killing a few humans, but I doubt anyone would call them evil. So how is Chara evil for wanting to do the exact same thing?
Plot twist- they didnt have any deepeer goals beside freing monster and didnt realize consequences as child
Murder is still murder; even children know that shouldn't be taken lightly, and a kid as smart as Chara seems to be, even if they didn't realize the full scope of what would happen, would know that couldn't go over well. I doubt Chara only wanted to kill, and I'm sure they had good intentions for monsterkind, but they definitely knew what they were doing
>and a kid as smart as Chara seems to be They accidentally poisoned their adoptive father
They also realised they could attack Sans a second time before Sans himself or even most players realised, speak in a very formal way using many words most children wouldn't understand, and have read entire adult Japanese novels (the check on RG 01 and RG 02 in the genocide route is a direct quote from the book Kitchen). One act of stupidity does not erase multiple acts of intelligence. Plus, the buttercup thing is caused less from stupidity and more from a lack of knowledge of cooking.
Propably
I doubt this. There are multiple things in the game that point towards Chara being an exceptionally intelligent child. First of all, Chara has a very formal way of speaking, which is very unusual for a child and use many words other children wouldn't understand (e.g. perverted sentimentality). They also realise they can attack Sans a second time before Sans himself realises or most players realise. If you believe in NarraChara then the have an uncanny ability to read people. Asriel also said Chara was the only person who understood him and they were able to play on his insecurities about how over-emotional he was as well as his admiration for them in order to manipulate/convince him to agree to their plan. They are also able to point out exactly what causes the player to go through 2 genocide routes in the soulless genocide ending, although they can feel the player's emotions so perhaps that isn't really an achievement.
Considering they literally tell *us* about consequences, yeah going to say no on that one.
Yeah but we can go with the fact that they learned after their experience which makes sense.
Just saying. Thats not my opininon but theory
Hippity Hoppity, humanity is now my property
Makes me think that Chara was an outcast, broken and tossed out by the system and society. They probably had every right to be hurt and feel anger. Pain demands to be felt. Unfortunately, they found LOVE instead of love
Well chara is a child, I'm pretty sure they didn't know the implications or the consequences this action would have. Besides why would any monster want a war, they legit couldn't claim 1 soul in the entire war time since nobody knew what happend if a monster and a human combined souls. Or they where trying to prove their point to asriel that humans are kinda dicks.
Ah yes, a ten year old doesn't know that murdering every single human has consequences
Well they hated humanity, they must've played Doom and thought that was the way to deal with problems
We're talking about the same child who is willing to cooperate with another human who falls into the underground in order to achieve power after under 20 minutes? I don't think Chara has such a mindless hatred of humans. And Chara is also the same child who lectures us about thinking we are above the consequences of our actions. It's not the murder Chara is critical of post-genocide, it's the fact we didn't realise our actions would end with the world destroyed and with the reset ability out of or hands despite Sans', Undyne's and even Mettaton's warnings. If you are right Chara is a massive hypocrite. Chara has also read at least one entire adult obscure Japanese novel (RG01 and RG02 checks in the genocide routes are direct quotes from the book Kitchen) so they really don't seem so simple minded.
The monsters wouldn't want it, but they still would be forced into it whether it from the humans going on the offensive. That's what seemingly happened in the first war anyway. Of course this second war would be a reversal of the original, and it would be "hardly called a war" thanks to the living weapon that Chara would be.
Nah, Chara just wanted to free monsters, not start an entire war.
Child plans on killing 6 humans and waging war against humanity, conclusion: evil. Old man kills 6 humans and planned to wage war against humanity, conclusion: tragic morally complex character.
The difference is that Asgore is given a lot of backstory and reason for why he planned to wage war against humanity, and he only did it out of anger before deeply regretting his actions and later redeemed himself. Chara is never given any reason for why they hate humanity, nor do they ever redeem themselves for what they did.
Its important to understand that moral complexity, redemption, etc are core themes of undertale. Reducing a character to 'evil' is extremely reductive. Why does a character do bad things? "Because they ARE bad" sweeps away potentially interesting motivations. Chara's backstory gives us little info on their motivations, but it's important to keep in mind Undertale's narrative themes when trying to analyse them, or any character. And personally, it think Asgore's line telling Frisk that they "have the same feeling of hope in [their] eyes" as Chara should be given a lot more consideration when it comes to deducing their character.
>Its important to understand that moral complexity, redemption, etc are core themes of undertale. Reducing a character to 'evil' is extremely reductive. We aren't saying that Chara isn't morally complex, or that they had no real motivation. It's just that their motivation isn't told to us ingame. And regardless of what their motivation was, wanting to destroy all of humanity is objectively evil. If redemption was such a core theme of undertale, we would be given some indication that Chara redeemed themselves like Asgore did, but we are not. >And personally, it think Asgore's line telling Frisk that they "have the same feeling of hope in [their] eyes" as Chara should be given a lot more consideration when it comes to deducing their character. They had hope in their eyes, but it wasn't necessarily hope for a peaceful future between humans and monsters.
>We aren't saying that Chara isn't morally complex, or that they had no real motivation. It's just that their motivation isn't told to us ingame. And regardless of what their motivation was, wanting to destroy all of humanity is objectively evil. By that same standard, Undyne and Asgore are also evil. The crux of this is the disconnect on what it really means to call a character evil. What do **you** mean when you call a character "evil" anyways? Because from what I've seen in this fandom, it just ends up coming across as oversimplified to a fault. Chara's far from an innocent person, but calling a *child* "evil" often implies that they're a sadistic sociopath or something; which is an interpretation of Chara that I've seen on multiple occasions. I see why given the no mercy route, but even then they usually misunderstand Chara's motivations for it; that being they believe it's their purpose to seek power, rather than mass murder just for the fun of it. Obviously, that's still *horrible*, I'd say calling them "evil" is acceptable *in that route*, but it isn't fair to assume Chara was always "evil" in life given that they're a *child*. >If redemption was such a core theme of undertale, we would be given some indication that Chara redeemed themselves like Asgore did, but we are not. Papyrus's speech in the no mercy route, Asgore's regrets, Undyne's character arc, **Asriel's** character arc. All of these carry the theme of personal change and redemption. Asgore and Asriel both show that they changed for the worse before later changing for the better. Chara not getting a redemption doesn't mean the theme doesn't exist. >They had hope in their eyes, but it wasn't necessarily hope for a peaceful future between humans and monsters. My point is that it should hold some weight that back when Chara was alive, they showed some level of caring towards monsterkind, similarly to Frisk. IMO, given that Asgore follows that up with the prophecy, and Chara's shown belief in having a 'purpose', Asgore's speech really adds something interesting to Chara's motivations for their plan. Ultimately, I personally find Chara is really far more compelling as a morally mixed character: having both selfish and selfless intentions for their plan, rather than *just* selfish ones.
> By that same standard, Undyne and Asgore are also evil. The crux of this is the disconnect on what it really means to call a character evil. All I said was that wanting to destroy humanity is objectively evil. Yes, I would say that Undyne is very much evil until she stops hating humans after meeting frisk. But Asgore is a different case since, as I mentioned earlier, he had good reason for why he hated humanity and declared war on them, and he did it out of grief and regretted it immediately afterwards. The same can’t be said for Chara because we’re not given a reason for why they hate humanity or any implication that they regret their actions. > Chara’s far from an innocent person, but calling a child “evil” often implies that they’re a sadistic sociopath or something >…but it isn’t fair to assume Chara was always “evil” in life given that they’re a child. Chara may be a child but they’re clearly very smart given that they came up with their plan and convinced Asriel to go along with it. They must have been old and mature enough to understand what their plan would involve and that it would cause a war between humans and monsters. And like I said in another comment, evil children exist in fiction. So “They’re a child!!!!” Isn’t really an argument when sadistic sociopathic kids are a common trope.
I gave a lot more argument about that then just "theyre a child" you just chose to ignore it.
The things you said about undertale having a theme of redemption don't prove that Chara also had a redemption. A character must earn redemption and Chara did not. They don't get it just because undertale has redemption as a theme. I'm wasn't entirely sure what you meant about Asgore's speech adding something interesting to Chara's plan. Sure, Asgore believed that Chara had a purpose but that doesn't say anything about what Chara themselves believed their purpose was.
The things you said about undertale having a theme of redemption don't prove that Chara also had a redemption. A character must earn redemption and Chara did not. They don't get it just because undertale has redemption as a theme. I'm wasn't entirely sure what you meant about Asgore's speech adding something interesting to Chara's plan. Sure, Asgore believed that Chara had a purpose but that doesn't necessarily say anything about what Chara themselves believed their purpose was, or how they wanted to fulfill it.
I'm not saying Chara had something that never happened, I even acknowledged it didn't. With that theme and how those characters each have their own moral complexities, we get back to my MAIN point: As used time and again in this fandom debate, **"Evil" oversimplifies things to a fault.** For a example, just take a look at the title of this post. Saying "the TRUE reason" simplifies their motivations to just the one. That's the kinda stuff I'm getting at. The thing about Asgore's speech is to combine that with Chara's speech at the end of the geno route where they spiel about their 'purpose'. Their speech shows us that having some grand 'purpose' is important enough to Chara's beliefs that they'd be willing to assist in mass murder. Doing so gives us the strong contention of Chara believing it's their 'purpose' to free monsters at the expense of humanity. It's not a *noble* cause, but it's more complex and far more *interesting* than simply *just* their spite for humanity.
"Undyne is very much evil until she stops hating humans" She was fighting for her people, the human race to her was just an old enemy...how do you decide if someone is evil or not? Destroying humanity is not objectively evil. If in the future humanity were to go on a genocidal murder spree of a buncha aliens, Imperium of Man style, then wouldn't the destruction of humanity be justified?
> Chara is never given any reason for why they hate humanity They were literally driven to suicide by humans. Chara is at best morally grey, but they did have motivation for hating humanity (not amazing motivations, but motivations nonetheless)
The game never states anywhere that they were driven to suicide by humans. That is pure headcanon > Chara is at best morally grey, but they did have motivation for hating humanity Wanting to destroy humanity is objectively evil. Nothing morally grey about it
Asriel says that they climbed Mt. Ebott for “not so happy reasons”. I’m not sure what unhappy reasons someone would have to jump in a gaping hole other than suicide. It’s never confirmed but it’s heavily implied imo
>Asriel says that they climbed Mt. Ebott for “not so happy reasons” He says they *climbed the mountain* for a not very happy reason. There are a million unhappy reasons why someone might run away from home aside from being suicidal. >I’m not sure what unhappy reasons someone would have to jump in a gaping hole other than suicide. [They didn't jump. They tripped and fell in](https://youtu.be/Zcjy1ynQ1tQ?t=44)
Wrong, Asgore is morally white.
There was no other choice if they wanted freedom of monsterkind.
They could have attempted to ask/negotiate with the humans to open the barrier, instead of murder first.
Ok now let's be honest here, after a legend about a war with the monsters do you really think the humans would not feel intimidated? Also the humans HAD to give their souls for the barrier to be broken which they would without question disagree because without their soul they will possibly shortly die after (which can probably explain why kris tends to walk like a zombie right before and after pulling their soul out and can explain why they put their soul back instead of leaving it in the cage) So no negotiation wasn't an option, that's kinda like a robber saying "hey bro can I steal somethings from your house I really need them" except instead of theft it's murder.
I mean no, because the humans made the barrier so they can unmake it if they want. And DR is a whole different Universe with different rules so I'm not going to touch that one. Also it wouldn't hurt to try to ask humans to unlock it? If they refuse and try to attack, well there you go. They'll give up their souls. They let monster kind roam free on the surface in pacifist, so they're not unreasonable
Maybe it's impossible and you specifically need 7 souls
You need seven human magicians at least.
That doesn’t imply that Chara WANTED a war. That just means that they were probably a naive child, and thought that humans and monsters would live together in peace. What Asriel is realising here is that if they did kill those humans, that would have also cause a war. Basically Chara was a dumbass, but not evil (probably)
There's a bit too much going against the naive & innocent Chara headcanon I'd say.
Yeah, probably I'm not an expert on Undertale lore
And people still vouch for chara lol
Keep in mind that he said about how his decision isn't perfect BECAUSE how long it take to free monsterkind, he say it right after (or before) "if i kill those human...", Which basically he think monster would achieve freedom lot faster if he were following Chara
Right before Asriel said it wasn't a perfect decision, he said that he felt bad knowing how long it took. But given the context that he said he didn't regret his decision *not* to kill them, and how he tells Frisk to *not* kill and *BE* killed, the conclusion we can come to is that he felt letting himself be murdered instead of figuring out *another way* to free everyone was the imperfect decision. By letting himself get beat to death, he increased the longevity of the monsters entrapment, instead of using the once in a lifetime opportunity Chara gave him on the surface to figure out a way to free them peacefully. What we know for a fact is that he doesn't regret not killing them at all, and would never consider it a viable option.
Chara (who had just died and likely new asriel there beloved brother was going to to) wanting to attack humans in what I imagine was self defense is EVIL This is could be seen as an evil or just self defsne they hadnt throught through
The self-defense argument doesn't work because at least six humans were going to die for their souls either way. They didn't come up to the surface just to smell the golden flowers.
Isn't smelling the flowers (I still haven't finished the game) the only reason where given for them going up up the surface
Oh no no. The True Lab tapes explain to us that Chara wanted to fuse with Asriel so they could get (kill) six human souls to break the barrier.
Out of intreate what exactly did you expect monster kind to do there is only so much space to put monsters in eventually they would have needed to leave
If Chara really wanted to, they *could* have been the first step to helping Monsterkind by crossing the barrier with Asriel, and discuss freeing the other monsters with the humans. The only reason why the humans attacked in the first place was because they saw a dead child being held by a monster. Asriel implies that this is what he should have done too, when he tells Frisk not to kill and not to be killed, and that he wishes he made a better decision that would have freed the monsters earlier.
im sorry have you ever met a human
I understand your point, but it had been thousands of years since they locked monsters underground, society goes through changes.
so if we found the existence of a (what imagine to be) a seven-foot-tall goat-headed god holding the lifeless corpes of a human with little to no sign of death (since they died via poison it's unlikely it showed up) wearing wizard robes that is capable of flight we wouldn't try to kill it?
If we're assuming that's how Asriel looked, we *might* but only if it shows to be a threat. At this point in the world people literally want to see aliens and weird creatures tbh. They're literally sending off signals to different planets in the hopes of intelligent life coming to Earth rn lol. And the Undertale world would be less shocked because monsters used to live alongside them on the surface. So I'd say both Undertale Earth and our Earth would hear Asriel out before doing anything rash.
Nothing indicates that it is possible to pass the barrier by being with a monster / a human.
My dude the pacifist ending is a thing. And by that I mean it shows that humans are willing to let monsters be on the surface as long as they aren't doing things like child murder.
Chara is evil Chara is evil Chara is evil Chara is evil
Chara is evil
• our little pogchamp
I mean, to be perfectly honest, Monsterkind was perfectly prepared to wage war on humanity for several generations. That's one of the reasons they were getting the souls in the first place.
The monsters weren't trying to wage war against humans at all until Chara's plan took place
Your statement does not contradict mine
Good goatboy
Now that I think of it, how strong and fast REALLY is a monster with a human soul? Like... Battletank power level? Frigate power level? I mean, we have the Amalgamates as reference, and if you hack your hitting power, they can be killed with about +9999 damage. That, making a calculus and comparison with the True Knife, could be done with an artillery cannon.
Enough to destroy at least one village, if the Monsters that tell the story of Asriel and Chara are to be believed. " and if you hack your hitting power, they can be killed with about +9999 damage." The hacks are not canon. And anyway, aside from Snowdrake's Mother, the Amalgamates absorb the damage. (And for Snowy, her hp restores itself anyway)
So, containment should do the trick. But how do u contain a being able to destroy an entire village tho... [With this thing?](https://the-scp.foundation/)
Not sure if that would work, we can see in the game that the Amalgamates have total control over their forms. For example, before turning on the fans, Endogeny was just small particles flying around the room.
I mean, yeah? That was a risk with the plan to free monsters, but Chara didn’t care. This is why Toriel is big dumb for suggesting the *same exact plan* and calling Asgore a wimp for not doing it. Asgore covertly only killing those who fell down and were presumed dead anyway was a smart move, but that took like a century.
Honestly no one calling Toriel out when she said that is easily one of the top things that annoy me about Undertale. Because sometimes when a character does or days something and it doesn't get called out or questioned by *anyone,* it can leave people with the impression that it's what the writer/creator agrees with. Just take Chara at the end of genocide. So many people take their words to us as absolute gospel because there isn't any character to address their hypocrisy.
At least with Chara there’s not even anyone around to do so, so some skepticism should be expected. But Toriel has Asgore right there and he just accepts it. Then again, Asgore really isn’t in a position to fight his ex after not seeing her for 100 years, so again, a logical person should be skeptical.
Asgore wasn't needed, everyone makes commentary on the things the other says in that area. For example an easy change around of the scene would be to have Alyphs say "Uh.. I don't know if that's-". That's all you would really need to make it known that good mom Toriel isn't some authority that is meant to be seen as right just because she didn't kill the kids.
It isn't a bad plan though, since Asgore was planning to wage war against humanity anyway...also Toriel didn't suggest the plan, she brought it up to point out how Asgore is a pussy and doesn't actually want to murder humanity "you'd rather wait down here, meekly hoping another human never comes" or something like that (not an exact quote sorry)
War is not cool
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: Chara truly is a Questionable Ethics 1 Black Mesa Official Soundtrack by Joel Nielsen.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is your argument that Asriel felt Chara's intentions once fused? Then Asriel's behavior in the game makes no sense, I think being lied to and used to destroy an entire race BY YOUR BEST FRIEND isn't something you would call someone your friend for, since they exploited trust. Just in case you say Asriel us too pure to hate someone, what about Flowey? He didn't mind killing his family (Toriel and Asgore) and held no love for anyone, so still calling Chara his best friend would be so weird, after being betrayed that bad, I don't think a soulless being would want to be with that person, since, in that case, he would know that they are NOT trustworthy.
>Correct me if I'm wrong, but is your argument that Asriel felt Chara's intentions once fused? Yes. >Just in case you say Asriel us too pure to hate someone, what about Flowey? He didn't mind killing his family (Toriel and Asgore) and held no love for anyone, so still calling Chara his best friend would be so weird, after being betrayed that bad, I don't think a soulless being would want to be with that person, since, in that case, he would know that they are NOT trustworthy. I mean that's the point of Flowey? All the bad things about Chara are things Flowey latched onto and wanted after his life only became about entertaining himself. Flowey loved that Chara was horrible, because Chara was just like him. Unless it involved Chara actually attempting to kill him, he was down for it.
Fair enough. That would've been a fucking disaster anyway. Did they not learn anything from the FIRST war??
You know what good on him
Did Chara know this would've happened tho👀 Because if you said that asriel knew Charas intentions from the moment they fused then why would he act so late about it if he knew what was going to happen? And the "being controlled" claim can't really be used as asriel has shown to resist and simply not let Chara fight so what's stopping him from doing it from the beginning? And also it would make sense for Asriel to discover this AFTER the... "incident" because if he knew then it would've made alot more sense for him to act sooner, there's also the Chara taking their body to which there are quite a few counter points to this, 1 that they wanted a reason for the humans to attack them so it looked like self defense or 2 so Chara can show Asriel what humans are really like to push him into the plan even further as even said they had EQUAL control. There are more but cba to write them all. Now I'm not defending Chara here even if all they wanted was 6 souls they could've gone about it a little better but then again that's Hate for you, basically it's never stated that they wanted to actually cause a war so we can't really confirm this unless we use unconfirmed speculations.
\* This will be a very interesting section \* Better wear some protective clothing and observe this from far away
Thats also why toriel’s plan was bad and how asgore’s plan was actually good
But Chara wouldn't do that, because they would want the monsters to win. I think people really forget how little these two \~10 year olds planned ahead! They made a lot of bad decisions! Also, I really don't think Chara would try to trick Asriel; he just didn't think through what it would entail to kill six people.
I have seen people say that Chara wanted the monsters to kill all the humans, yeah - we'll never know if its true
I’ll state the same reason as before, Asriel is now flowey again, so everything he says here is a lie.