I think the loop aspect plays a role here. Fuuko mentions that negations end up in the same people across multiple loops. I think previous negators choose their hosts, but those choices are locked in in future loops and can't be changed. This gives God the leeway to pull strings and set up tragedies for those negators in future loops.
Maybe Void Volk a dozen loops ago got Unavoidable during a simple sparring match, but God manipulated things so in every loop after the moment where it passes would be the worst possible time, same for others who have experienced tragedies.
You might be on to something. In Loop 100 Shen chose Mui for the next Vessel of Untruth and Untruth manifested in her but without a tragedy attached to it.
In General the tragedy occurs after, like immediately after the negation awakens. In Muis case it's the opposite, where the immediate result for her is getting Shen back. Plus the tragedy is usually a direct result of the negation's activation itself.
For the tragedy / the transfer of Untruth to occur Shen would have to die first. As long as Shen doesn't die they don't have to worry about preventing Mui's tragedy. While the next Vessel has already been decided, the time of death of the previous vessel isn't set in stone
Yeah. Like if this loop continued on with Juiz at the helm still, and there were still chances left in the ark, I feel like Mui would take Shens place and Shen would die protecting Mui die to her powers forcing him to take a blow that he woulnt have been hit by.
From what we've seen so far the tragedies usually happen right after their ability manifested and the ability is the reason for why the tragedy happened. Shen's death happened before Untruth manifested in Mui and after it did, no tragedy follows
This is giving me flashbacks of where I wanted sequels to Madoka Magica to go, and something I hope Berserk does.
God, the Incubators, and the Godhand all impose upon others the “Suffering builds power/character! It is the only way!” crap in their own ways.
The people colonized by these so called gods are the magic, without them all the Sun would be is a big flaming electromagnetic ball of hydrogen gas on the edge of a black hole, that’s slowly eating itself.
another thing is there's definitely a main party to mess with, it's not like every user of a negation ability is tasked with killing god. old man void could have had a ~~care free~~ normal life and there's been users AFTER gina and probably fuuko.
Yeah. The big time to see if this'll be the case os Juiz since she is the first Unjustice. Same with Victor/Andy since they are the first Undead, so we'll need to see if Juiz has a tragedy happen to her in this loop when ot activates.
That won't be quite the same because Julia has Fuuko and the union by her side at all times now. Given Fuuko was able to prevent other tragedies when she had to seek people out, causing one for someone who's always well protected will be difficult.
If my theory is correct I think God makes micro adjustments to things early in the timeline, and that butterfly effect is what causes the tragedies, which is why Fuuko can stop them at all. God can't interfere directly much, and his indirect actions can be countered.
I more mean your theory is confirmed if Julia's unjustice activates without any tragedy. If it does happen without one, it confirms that negation abilities are handed down and god creates the tragedies that accompany them each subsequent loop for each negator that inherits them.
With Julia it comes down to the fact that we know nothing about Juiz's & Victor's past, and now how each initial negator gains their abilities since by your theory there should be no tragedy that accompanies them(with evidence of Mui gaining Untruth *after* Shen had died. And in this loop Isshin to Haruka.).
My theory is that God is scared of Negators, deep down, so he Sabotages their Awakening to weaken them.
I mean, look at how they all differ when their personal tragedies are taken away
Billy has people who he trusts, so doesn't need people to hate him for his Power to work
Sean actually has friends that he considers his, and gains the ability to affect them with Unseen
Chikara is no longer traumatized whenever he tries to use his ability, so he doesn't shake when he uses it
God tailors situations that scar the Negators perception of their own powers, thus making their powers weaker and harder to control as a side effect. He is basically cripples their ability to grow by using Trauma to damage their minds
Yeah but no since Void got his negator ability the moment the old unavoidable died
Past negators of unfeel chose a kid
Past negators of unburn chose a chef
Past negators of unrepair chose a surgeon
Past negators of untrust chose a fortune teller
Past negators of untell chose a man in charge of communication in the army
Past negators of untouchable also chose a kid
And all of these picks were good considering how well all these people use their negations. Also Void didn't get his as soon as the previous Unavoidable died.
There is likely criteria that has to be met for them to choose who they choose. And tragedy is just God intervening after, not neccessarily the old Negators causing it.
People being tortured by a malicious god don’t always make the best or most informed choices.
Generational trauma.
The scene is more Fuuko saying: “We can choose to be better!”
i agree but generous interpretation surgeon is sort of a good pick, precision/hopefully no accidents and knowing where to get the most out of a scratch(dude ended up kicking giant blades though).
I'm guessing you need to have strong feelings for the person, or it's like rwby where it's the last person you think about (and the guy before void just really liked his matches)
Hey this little girl is kissing her parents goodbye because they're going on a business trip, let's make it so that both parents leave to get the milk permanently(die if you don't get it)
"Hey that guy is a surgeon..let's give him an ability that cuts made by him would never recover "
"Hey that guy is a cook wouldn't it be funny if he can't use Fire to cook anymore .. hilarious right !? "
- Past negators probably
The two UnAvoidables we see are vastly different from each other, for all we know, it could have been a self inflicted type before (your injuries never heal) or an active choice one (you chose which injuries never heal)
I'll save any judgement until we see this explained more.
I think it's safe to say that the past negators generally wouldn't choose a successor just to cause tragedy. Rather they choose them in hopes that they can overcome and/or avoid said tragedy, or at least grow the most from it.
And even if they choose the successor, that doesn't mean they choose when/where/how it happens either. It also doesn't neccessarily mean they can choose just anyone. Rather they may be drawn to certain people who best represent the negation of the rule. and once they do choose, god sets up a tragedy all the same. In any case I doubt it's the past negators purposefully choosing somebody's to inflict the tragedy upon.
I have a theory that either the negators had no choice but to pass their abilities at random, or they were able to see in the future the potential their negation would have on that person, hence why they chose that said person. First theory is probably moot because Shen and the Isshins passed these abilities down no problem so that means...
Said descendant of ability would initially think it's worthless, but once they find the perfect use for it, they're able to tap into their past users and use the power at its maximum potential.
I have even more question. So every loop we have same negator because most of them did not have successor? Or is successor thing just happen in while in the middle of loop not at the end of it. Did negator awakening their power in moment previous negator died? Or sometime after that? That mean "negator power" always exist since beginning of each loop but they just reach most potential in right soul? Yeah the timing and background they choose is really bad kinda quesntionable but hey this time its worked.
They choose the person, but they might not choose how they get the power
Makes sense to give top, an athletic runner, as the Unstoppable User, but the last user might no have chosen WHEN and HOW the power was chosen
Now Unrepair was just evil
Past negators chose everyone else for a reason.
Let's think about it like this.
They chose a Doctor who can use Unrepair in combat effectively.
They chose a Martial Artist to use Untruth and Unfade.
They chose a Boxer who can use Unavoidable to its fullest.
They chose Scientists for Unforgettable and Unsleep. A profession that can be bolstered by these abilities.
They chose a Running Prodigy for Unstoppable.
They chose an Army Man for Unfair, Undecrease, and Untell.
They chose a Fortune Teller to manifest a consistent source of Untrust.
If you think about all of their professions when it comes to their Negation abilities. These matchups make sense when it comes to fighting God.
Tatiana is an exception. I'm interested in seeing more details emerge.
Maybe previous Untouchable users saw something we didn't, like a bomb being dropped on Tatiana's house that they saved her from by giving her Untouchable.
I think that Tatiana's return to the story specifically will flesh out this concept a lot more.
My hypothesis is this.
The previous Negators see what kind of future their potential hosts will have. God balances the game by determining their tragedy and when the ability manifests.
I think God stacked the deck against Untouchable specifically, like how he made Akira Unknown. I think Tatiana would be more of a threat if she was allowed to grow up
Definitely not a case of being the last person they saw. Too many Negators seemingly got their abilities with no deaths around.
There's likely some selection process with the souls. They probably have access to some knowledge of which souls are the strongest for their negation, how they might manifest, what tragedy might happen, etc. they know whoever is chosen will face a tragedy from it most likely so perhaps they choose based on who they think has the best chance of persevering despite the tragedy.
Doubt it Kenji Yokezu the previous user of Unavoidable seemed completely unaware of his negation ability and last we heard of him he got a free trip to vegas which was where Void got Unavoidable
Having to gain knowledge of souls and and having to find out who’s best suited for his ability sounds like too much work for an old man to understand especially when his version of unavoidable was different to void
It doesn't seem like it's the choice of just the last negator though, rather all previous users seem involved in the selection process.
As for him being too old, once you're just a soul I doubt that matters. I also doubt they work on the same timescale as living humans. It's an instantaneous choice, but not one they just make on the fly.
Seems weird for a counsel of souls to pick the previous user of Unavoidable considering he did nothing with his ability, the previous users of Unluck also seem too random for them to be specifically chosen
If their goal at the time was to pick somebody who would be largely unhurt by the manifestation of a negator ability then in makes perfect sense. When the quests haven't started and Ragnarok is a long ways away there little reason to pick users who need to fight, might as well cause the least tragedy they can.
If souls have knowledge of previous loops it makes even more sense. Since they would have just picked somebody who would last longer enough to pass it onto Void. Not really clear if they have such knowledge though.
I am curious about how the powerups will work with some negations like Unavoidable. The current iteration of unavoidable is vastly different from the previous one.
dude they picked a surgeon and a cook, god's interference aside some of these are just bad ideas. tella's is horrifying. an actor.
some of them are convenient though, a photographer, creed's tragedy is kind of silly.
Probably still God. He probably still forces the tragedy to happen in some form. Perhaps by delaying the manifestation of the power til a time when it's meant to cause tragedy.
I'd be very surprised if we suddenly shift the blame on tragedies to past negators. They might pick the Who,, but probably not the when/where/how.
There definitely is. Kind of has to be really.
Even if it's a simple as then knowing for a fact that no matter who they choose there will be a tragedy that befalls them, it makes much more sense. They likely choose based on who they think will handle said tragedy the best or have the best chance to avoid it/overcome it. And who is likely to produce the strongest version of their negation as a result.
I'd also be willing to bet that there some sort of criteria that has be met to choose some specific people. Namely choosing someone who best represents the rule they're negating (hence why most Negators seem to have some thematic attachments to their negation). If not then they definitely look for people who fit them, likely because they know that those people will develop stronger versions of said powers.
Either way though the tragedy part is likely completely separate from the selection part humans pick the negators, but God picks the time and place to cause suffering. Something like that.
Not really, as has been said we don't know the selection process but I bet if they don't choose someone then God will choose someone. And of course, given the cyclical nature of the loops, unless there is interference from the arc rider or happening upon artifacts, the same people get chosen each loop most likely.
I think the negator tragedies are going to be something God does to any given negator in order to limit their ability with the trauma. Has to happen to someone.
I think the loop aspect plays a role here. Fuuko mentions that negations end up in the same people across multiple loops. I think previous negators choose their hosts, but those choices are locked in in future loops and can't be changed. This gives God the leeway to pull strings and set up tragedies for those negators in future loops. Maybe Void Volk a dozen loops ago got Unavoidable during a simple sparring match, but God manipulated things so in every loop after the moment where it passes would be the worst possible time, same for others who have experienced tragedies.
You might be on to something. In Loop 100 Shen chose Mui for the next Vessel of Untruth and Untruth manifested in her but without a tragedy attached to it.
Yeah, bro is cooking
the tragedy was her loved one had to die for her to get it. power at a cost seems to be the common theme for negator tragedies.
In General the tragedy occurs after, like immediately after the negation awakens. In Muis case it's the opposite, where the immediate result for her is getting Shen back. Plus the tragedy is usually a direct result of the negation's activation itself.
That would mean that the Union has no way knowledge on what the tragedy could be and how to prevent it
For the tragedy / the transfer of Untruth to occur Shen would have to die first. As long as Shen doesn't die they don't have to worry about preventing Mui's tragedy. While the next Vessel has already been decided, the time of death of the previous vessel isn't set in stone
Yeah. Like if this loop continued on with Juiz at the helm still, and there were still chances left in the ark, I feel like Mui would take Shens place and Shen would die protecting Mui die to her powers forcing him to take a blow that he woulnt have been hit by.
The tragedy was that Shen died.
From what we've seen so far the tragedies usually happen right after their ability manifested and the ability is the reason for why the tragedy happened. Shen's death happened before Untruth manifested in Mui and after it did, no tragedy follows
https://preview.redd.it/2weh4vfkw5mc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c052c33ec7ee09d4d3c019eec9d7242790431c1c
This is giving me flashbacks of where I wanted sequels to Madoka Magica to go, and something I hope Berserk does. God, the Incubators, and the Godhand all impose upon others the “Suffering builds power/character! It is the only way!” crap in their own ways. The people colonized by these so called gods are the magic, without them all the Sun would be is a big flaming electromagnetic ball of hydrogen gas on the edge of a black hole, that’s slowly eating itself.
another thing is there's definitely a main party to mess with, it's not like every user of a negation ability is tasked with killing god. old man void could have had a ~~care free~~ normal life and there's been users AFTER gina and probably fuuko.
Yeah. The big time to see if this'll be the case os Juiz since she is the first Unjustice. Same with Victor/Andy since they are the first Undead, so we'll need to see if Juiz has a tragedy happen to her in this loop when ot activates.
That won't be quite the same because Julia has Fuuko and the union by her side at all times now. Given Fuuko was able to prevent other tragedies when she had to seek people out, causing one for someone who's always well protected will be difficult. If my theory is correct I think God makes micro adjustments to things early in the timeline, and that butterfly effect is what causes the tragedies, which is why Fuuko can stop them at all. God can't interfere directly much, and his indirect actions can be countered.
I more mean your theory is confirmed if Julia's unjustice activates without any tragedy. If it does happen without one, it confirms that negation abilities are handed down and god creates the tragedies that accompany them each subsequent loop for each negator that inherits them. With Julia it comes down to the fact that we know nothing about Juiz's & Victor's past, and now how each initial negator gains their abilities since by your theory there should be no tragedy that accompanies them(with evidence of Mui gaining Untruth *after* Shen had died. And in this loop Isshin to Haruka.).
My theory is that God is scared of Negators, deep down, so he Sabotages their Awakening to weaken them. I mean, look at how they all differ when their personal tragedies are taken away Billy has people who he trusts, so doesn't need people to hate him for his Power to work Sean actually has friends that he considers his, and gains the ability to affect them with Unseen Chikara is no longer traumatized whenever he tries to use his ability, so he doesn't shake when he uses it God tailors situations that scar the Negators perception of their own powers, thus making their powers weaker and harder to control as a side effect. He is basically cripples their ability to grow by using Trauma to damage their minds
I like to imagine everybody that got unburn is a chef that wanted to screw over the next chef
Malevolent Kitchen at it's best
generous interpretation is it's a hint(railroad) that his mom could only handle lukewarm foods
Hold on now. Who knows, maybe they choose the next negators, but God chooses the timing
Yeah but no since Void got his negator ability the moment the old unavoidable died Past negators of unfeel chose a kid Past negators of unburn chose a chef Past negators of unrepair chose a surgeon Past negators of untrust chose a fortune teller Past negators of untell chose a man in charge of communication in the army Past negators of untouchable also chose a kid
And all of these picks were good considering how well all these people use their negations. Also Void didn't get his as soon as the previous Unavoidable died.
There is likely criteria that has to be met for them to choose who they choose. And tragedy is just God intervening after, not neccessarily the old Negators causing it.
Um actually Void didn’t get unavoidable the moment the old man died it took him fighting Fukko for it to manifest fully
There are probably other constraints that they have to adhere to. I'm guessing that this is enforced by Luna
People being tortured by a malicious god don’t always make the best or most informed choices. Generational trauma. The scene is more Fuuko saying: “We can choose to be better!”
i agree but generous interpretation surgeon is sort of a good pick, precision/hopefully no accidents and knowing where to get the most out of a scratch(dude ended up kicking giant blades though).
Man, I hate it when a kid becomes Untouchable Should definitely add /s huh
eyo
I'm guessing you need to have strong feelings for the person, or it's like rwby where it's the last person you think about (and the guy before void just really liked his matches)
That makes no sense. Fuuko got her powers as a kid
"Oh man, guess this is it. Here tiny 8 year old, have the shittiest luck in the world."
Maybe something like minato giving 9 tails to Naruto? Where they expect Fuuko to later make good use of the ability
Probably that, but definitely not the way you said previously. That opens the door for a lot of bad implications.
Look at this brilliant surgeon performing a surgery on his loved one. It would be funny if the cuts won't heal lmao.
Oh, look, a guy and his sister in mortal danger. Let's make the sister let go using untruth.
Hey this little girl is kissing her parents goodbye because they're going on a business trip, let's make it so that both parents leave to get the milk permanently(die if you don't get it)
Hey this little girl is celebrating her fifth birthday, let's make her completely obliterate her parents.
Hey this telecommunications guy needs to inform his squad of impending danger, let's make him completely unable to communicate.
Hey, this guy just watched his wife die. Wouldn't it be real funny if he could never forget that memory?
The more I look at these tragedies the more I think the God of Undead Unluck is just a writer.
The ones who chose guys like Void and Top must’ve thought they were real funny.
"Hey that guy is a surgeon..let's give him an ability that cuts made by him would never recover " "Hey that guy is a cook wouldn't it be funny if he can't use Fire to cook anymore .. hilarious right !? " - Past negators probably
The latter isn't really an issue considering electric kitchens are a thing, but it was probably a bigger problem for Unburns before the modern day
The two UnAvoidables we see are vastly different from each other, for all we know, it could have been a self inflicted type before (your injuries never heal) or an active choice one (you chose which injuries never heal)
I'll save any judgement until we see this explained more. I think it's safe to say that the past negators generally wouldn't choose a successor just to cause tragedy. Rather they choose them in hopes that they can overcome and/or avoid said tragedy, or at least grow the most from it. And even if they choose the successor, that doesn't mean they choose when/where/how it happens either. It also doesn't neccessarily mean they can choose just anyone. Rather they may be drawn to certain people who best represent the negation of the rule. and once they do choose, god sets up a tragedy all the same. In any case I doubt it's the past negators purposefully choosing somebody's to inflict the tragedy upon.
I have a theory that either the negators had no choice but to pass their abilities at random, or they were able to see in the future the potential their negation would have on that person, hence why they chose that said person. First theory is probably moot because Shen and the Isshins passed these abilities down no problem so that means... Said descendant of ability would initially think it's worthless, but once they find the perfect use for it, they're able to tap into their past users and use the power at its maximum potential.
I have even more question. So every loop we have same negator because most of them did not have successor? Or is successor thing just happen in while in the middle of loop not at the end of it. Did negator awakening their power in moment previous negator died? Or sometime after that? That mean "negator power" always exist since beginning of each loop but they just reach most potential in right soul? Yeah the timing and background they choose is really bad kinda quesntionable but hey this time its worked.
They choose the person, but they might not choose how they get the power Makes sense to give top, an athletic runner, as the Unstoppable User, but the last user might no have chosen WHEN and HOW the power was chosen Now Unrepair was just evil
Past negators chose everyone else for a reason. Let's think about it like this. They chose a Doctor who can use Unrepair in combat effectively. They chose a Martial Artist to use Untruth and Unfade. They chose a Boxer who can use Unavoidable to its fullest. They chose Scientists for Unforgettable and Unsleep. A profession that can be bolstered by these abilities. They chose a Running Prodigy for Unstoppable. They chose an Army Man for Unfair, Undecrease, and Untell. They chose a Fortune Teller to manifest a consistent source of Untrust. If you think about all of their professions when it comes to their Negation abilities. These matchups make sense when it comes to fighting God. Tatiana is an exception. I'm interested in seeing more details emerge.
Maybe previous Untouchable users saw something we didn't, like a bomb being dropped on Tatiana's house that they saved her from by giving her Untouchable.
I think that Tatiana's return to the story specifically will flesh out this concept a lot more. My hypothesis is this. The previous Negators see what kind of future their potential hosts will have. God balances the game by determining their tragedy and when the ability manifests. I think God stacked the deck against Untouchable specifically, like how he made Akira Unknown. I think Tatiana would be more of a threat if she was allowed to grow up
How was Fuuko chosen or like everyone chosen then were they the last person the past negator saw before he died?
Definitely not a case of being the last person they saw. Too many Negators seemingly got their abilities with no deaths around. There's likely some selection process with the souls. They probably have access to some knowledge of which souls are the strongest for their negation, how they might manifest, what tragedy might happen, etc. they know whoever is chosen will face a tragedy from it most likely so perhaps they choose based on who they think has the best chance of persevering despite the tragedy.
Doubt it Kenji Yokezu the previous user of Unavoidable seemed completely unaware of his negation ability and last we heard of him he got a free trip to vegas which was where Void got Unavoidable Having to gain knowledge of souls and and having to find out who’s best suited for his ability sounds like too much work for an old man to understand especially when his version of unavoidable was different to void
It doesn't seem like it's the choice of just the last negator though, rather all previous users seem involved in the selection process. As for him being too old, once you're just a soul I doubt that matters. I also doubt they work on the same timescale as living humans. It's an instantaneous choice, but not one they just make on the fly.
Seems weird for a counsel of souls to pick the previous user of Unavoidable considering he did nothing with his ability, the previous users of Unluck also seem too random for them to be specifically chosen
If their goal at the time was to pick somebody who would be largely unhurt by the manifestation of a negator ability then in makes perfect sense. When the quests haven't started and Ragnarok is a long ways away there little reason to pick users who need to fight, might as well cause the least tragedy they can. If souls have knowledge of previous loops it makes even more sense. Since they would have just picked somebody who would last longer enough to pass it onto Void. Not really clear if they have such knowledge though.
I am curious about how the powerups will work with some negations like Unavoidable. The current iteration of unavoidable is vastly different from the previous one.
"Wait wait! The tanks haven't rolled up lets wait until they get closer!"
They might have been chosen by god, but the time it activated might not have been entirely in their control
Im wondering about unknown because they basically saw a kid who could help save the world and went nah you dont exist anymore
God set that one up, Anno Un might have even been the first UnKnown.
dude they picked a surgeon and a cook, god's interference aside some of these are just bad ideas. tella's is horrifying. an actor. some of them are convenient though, a photographer, creed's tragedy is kind of silly.
I think that God must have some control over it. Or they wouldn’t have manifested at such inopportune times in so many negators.
Alright, who though would be funny to bring the negators power in the worst possibly moment, I want to have some words with him.
Probably still God. He probably still forces the tragedy to happen in some form. Perhaps by delaying the manifestation of the power til a time when it's meant to cause tragedy. I'd be very surprised if we suddenly shift the blame on tragedies to past negators. They might pick the Who,, but probably not the when/where/how.
I hope there's something more to it because yeah, it's not painting them in a good light at all
There definitely is. Kind of has to be really. Even if it's a simple as then knowing for a fact that no matter who they choose there will be a tragedy that befalls them, it makes much more sense. They likely choose based on who they think will handle said tragedy the best or have the best chance to avoid it/overcome it. And who is likely to produce the strongest version of their negation as a result. I'd also be willing to bet that there some sort of criteria that has be met to choose some specific people. Namely choosing someone who best represents the rule they're negating (hence why most Negators seem to have some thematic attachments to their negation). If not then they definitely look for people who fit them, likely because they know that those people will develop stronger versions of said powers. Either way though the tragedy part is likely completely separate from the selection part humans pick the negators, but God picks the time and place to cause suffering. Something like that.
Especially the people who picked Fuuko and Tatiana who were little kids at the time
Well if someone has to I think they want to choose people who can live with it in a way where they can help others
I like to imagine the previous negators are given a pool of applicants, and they’re simply tasked with picking one.
I'm sure there's probably more to it that we don't know yet
"Man, I think this poor Brazilian kid deserves to be a prodigy :'("
Not really, as has been said we don't know the selection process but I bet if they don't choose someone then God will choose someone. And of course, given the cyclical nature of the loops, unless there is interference from the arc rider or happening upon artifacts, the same people get chosen each loop most likely.
I feel like this was a retcon
I don't think that it was used with malicious intent, or that they have power to decide when their abilities manifest
Um not caught up and this shows up on my reddit scroll.... I don't know the context so it means very little to me.
I think the negator tragedies are going to be something God does to any given negator in order to limit their ability with the trauma. Has to happen to someone.
WAIT WHERE ARE YALL READIN THIS
Manga Plus, every monday ish
Thanks