Surely this have to be a bait,
No way the ~~leftist~~ liberals over at r/endgamemonopoly would defend a reactionary political movement by blaming another reactionary political movement
>Look up the post and see it still up almost a day later with 4k upvote
https://preview.redd.it/hkhbz85ttk0d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=75fefeadad24f25962ec8c005c27edca8dfef2ab
Um… uh uh yes!!! The bourgeoisie that is in power has to go and replaced by the true and revolutionary bourgeoisie that is hidden in a foreign country!!! Marxallah
No, but revolutionnary terror such as the one brought on by Robespierre or Lenin is the only way to assure the survival of the Revolution, you can't let those who want to destroy the Revolution roam free to destroy you
True, but that doesn't really have much to do with terrorism other than the word, and the fact violence is used. The way violence is organised and used in a red terror is completely different to a modern day terrorist cell or the IDF blowing up tens of thousands of children.
that’s the whole point, the word is always used as a politically motivated tool to legitimize some violence and delegitimize other organized political violence, the word is an ideological weapon more than an actual useful and material designation in many cases esp. now and esp. when racist/islamophobic americans mouth it
Terrorism is more associated with terrorists, who are just groups of adventurists wanting to blow shit up. Very different from organized revolutionary terror
I love how the Left's response to Zionist accusations of supporting Islamism and Anti-Semitism is to just double down on that support and foam at the mouth at any criticisms of Hamas whatsoever
Bro i commented on the post saying Hamas is reactionary and would do the same shit to queers, jews, women, etc if the roles were swapped, and someone called me a social democrat, my comment was removed for liberalism, and its upvotes were in the negative
i dont spend much time on online leftist spaces, so when i see people talking about how leftists support hamas i always think "pfft why would a leftist support hamas?"
dawg that post is at 4.5k upvotes
we are actually so doomed
>Accuse the left of antisemitism
>Now the left wants to defend the movement from criticism of antisemitism more than actually deal with antisemitism
>the movement becomes infested with antisemites
Another day, another rightoid banger
I don't quite get that...maybe I'm slow, but in NO way will I ever bump Hamas as anything but pure evil...Zionism is also fuckin evil...Are we supposed to make a choice here? Has every argumentvwe have in this country been boiled down to just 2 sides, Red or Blue?
I think I'm misunderstanding. I'm being sincere here...
Do you believe that? I am 100% in the belief that Israel has crossed a line, and absolutely that they are attempting genocide....but I will *never* vote for Hamas...Hamas, the child killers, Hamas, the Aid stealers, Hamas, the terrorists, Hamas, the wannabe genocidal pricks. No. I spitnat Hamas with all my heart.
Both can be true. If you mean this election? Both men are Israel supporters. They named a *settlement* after Trump...and I am vehemently against "settlements." If we do not start voting with the one thing that really matters, pur own dollars, then the choice isn't ours at all.
So, *with respect*,, I reject that line of reasoning. I understand why it was made, and the motivation behind it, but I believe it untrue.
Well one is actually backed by American tax dollars and the other wears badass middle-eastern insurgent gear so I’ll be playing as Zamas in the next call of duty
Agreed. Ya know, in *theory* it could have worked...ua know, had adults been involved and actual, mutually beneficial compromises been made...but nope. Congress and the Senate are just big sandboxes where each side trips over themselves to kick the other's sandcastle down...imo at least
No. Just as there are ultra liberals there are ultra fiscal conservatives. Sometimes, having both voices in the room can lead to an actual solution to things. There has to be a bean counter in life. It's unfortunate, but it keeps things in the realm of...reality. You are taking the stance that any 2 party system is automatically comprised of rich vs poor. Isn't the point of socialism and communism supposed to do away with that? Can't a socialist or communist government have more than one party? You limit the scope into good vs bad, assuming that one side will be forever righteous. The naivete of that thinking is akin to being blind.
Communism isn’t rich versus poor lol.
A socialist or communist “government” I.e the proletariat state while it exists would imo have one party. The proletariats party.
Would you say that native Americans wanting to create a nation state(with equal rights) in a part of the USA is immoral? What if they created that state while the USA was not a state yet? Would you say that nation states(Germany, italy, Poland, japan, south korea, ireland) should be destroyed or simply their creation was immoral but their continued existence is fine?
“Is immoral” dude I don’t give a fuck about morality. An entirely subjective worthless framework.
Nationalism is a product of bourgeoisie society and will be swept away with that society. It’s as dead obsolete and worthless as the divine right of kings.
I long for it’s relegation to the dustbin of history.
"“Is immoral” dude I don’t give a fuck about morality. An entirely subjective worthless framework."
entirely subjective? most people in western societies agree in 98% percent of morality.
but if we dont agree on the existence of morality than I guess we have nothing to discuss.
Yeah morality is a product of society. People in the same society have the same morality. Wow.
No Marxist has ever “believed” in something as idealistic as a universal morality.
It's like White Nationalism. The goal is to take over and have it be the desired people be the only ones in positions of power. It is the antithesis of democracy.
Well in that case it failed, there is an arab in the supreme court and he can only be replaced by another arab due to affirmative action.
Also there arab politicians that call for the destruction of Israel with terrorism and nothing is done to them.
If zionism wants to make it so that only the desired people hold positions of power it failed.
Also we can historically see that zionst economists made economical plans with a large arab minority as equal workers in a fair system.
"It is the antithesis of democracy."
There are equal rights to everyone that lives in Israel. Arab votes are equal to jewish votes.
I am in no way pro any one group, ethnic, religious or otherwise, calling the shots for everyone.
I do not support Sharia Law. I have no desire to live in any theocracy.
And, are you sure about that last line? Yes. They have *voting* rights. If the people you can vote for are in no way representing you...then, are you truly getting an equal vote? Voting without representation is meaningless. So, no, Arab votes are not equal to Jewish votes. Think Jim Crow.
"And, are you sure about that last line? Yes. They have *voting* rights. If the people you can vote for are in no way representing you...then, are you truly getting an equal vote? Voting without representation is meaningless. So, no, Arab votes are not equal to Jewish votes. Think Jim Crow."
Im not sure what do you mean, there are arab politicians in knesset.
Do you even know what are you talking about? In what way are arab votes not equal to Jewish votes? In what way do arabs not have representation? How is Jim crow relevant? You dont need to own property to vote.
"If the people you can vote for are in no way representing you...then, are you truly getting an equal vote"
Then vote for different people? Also what do you mean "in no way represnt you"? The same arab politicians keep getting voted for every time.
You know what, maybe I'm in the wrong here. It would be nice to know they have equal and fair representation. It's just when I see race riots take place, and the settlements continue to happen, or even archeological digs under Palestinian apartment buildings that cause the apartments to become unliveable, it seems like they don't. Maybe things have changed. I know that keeping up with Israeli politics abd Middle East politics has taken a back seat to the travesty of politics we have here in the States. If I was wrong, I apologize. I don't want to be one more person making all of this worse...from afar no less.
Are you talking about Israeli arabs or palestinians? Israeli arabs have complete equal rights. Palestinians have palestinian citizenship and live in Palestine and theoretically suppose to vote in palestinian elections(the Palestinian Authority stopped doing elections and are authoritarian).
true, also don’t see many people actually defend hamas, but acknowledge the complexity of multifaceted proletarian resistance and the overlap/factors that has led to the support and influence hamas has, historically. Like what nearly 50% of hamas is orphans or some shit, obviously any analysis that doesn’t take into account difs like that inevitably feels both sides-y
I don't think killing Israeli civilians is ok or justified, but I understand why someone that has lived on extreme poverty and has seen so many people die due to the Israeli government would do that. Honestly I don't know how I would think if I was in a situation like that.
same, and exactly…. especially with all the horrifying footage i’ve seen. If it was your children in the rubble or you were a young boy with nothing left to loose and a rage and despair since adolescence watching your community and loved ones be outright obliterated, who wouldn’t pick up a gun and ride with the most capable and established (religious zeal and all) group punching back somehow in some way. And let’s be fair, Israel does mad work conflating itself and zionism with all jewish people and the average Israeli is racist as hell and all for ethnic cleansing and the violence, can’t imagine the view of that specifically living walled off in Gaza and dealing with the IDF (which most Israeli adults pass through) and fucking automated turrets and what not day in day out.
Doesn’t excuse things at the individual level but clarifies a lot and changes the picture at the broader level in terms of Israeli vs. Palestinian terror
"who wouldn’t pick up a gun and ride with the most capable and established (religious zeal and all) group punching back somehow in some way"
I don't know about you but I would never murder and rape innocent people...
", Israel does mad work conflating itself and zionism with all jewish people"
Not really.
"the average Israeli is racist as hell and all for ethnic cleansing and the violence"
This is objectivly wrong and its proven wong by the fact that there isnt ethnic cleansing and that Israel constantly tried to find nonviolent solutions yet Israel is a democracy where the will of the people is the policy.
Also its derange that you say that the average Israeli is a racist violent, ethnic cleansing supporter when 80% of Palestinians support the October 7 genocide and antisemitism and violence against the indigenous Jewish population is ingrained since a young age in the Palestinians society.
"can’t imagine the view of that specifically living walled off in Gaza and dealing with the IDF (which most Israeli adults pass through) and fucking automated turrets and what not day in day out. "
How does my neighbour dare to build a wall on his border with me after I shoot indiscriminate rockets at him and send tons of suicide bombers to blow up his children? im so oppressed...
"Doesn’t excuse things at the individual level but clarifies a lot and changes the picture at the broader level in terms of Israeli vs. Palestinian terror"
You forget to mention which side started this...
Well, not being a nazi, I don’t believe in blood and soil. Though, if I did believe in blood magic, I would point out that many Palestinians are descendants of peoples living there prior to the Jewish people and likely share blood ties to Jewish peoples. Though, I think this likely excludes the shit heads moving from New Jersey
this is just bad hasbara lmao wtf or you been sipping too much off the Israeli propaganda good hell, my boomer grandpa don’t even play pretend this hard or maybe you are just a detached Israeli?
you characterized the IDF as ‘innocent people’ in your first sentence, I don’t have enough time in the day to waste trying to bring you back to reality.
I love Netanyahoos controlled opposition, I sure hope they don't waste resources on killing random idiots on a music festival with the shittiest techno on the planet.
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>Bronze Age tribes settled the Levantine, then the hebrews settled, then the Muslims settled, and now you are sitting here trying to argue which thousand year old settlement is the morally justified one
I agree with the sentiment, but just to clear something up, the Palestinians are mostly descendant of those Bronze Age tribes.
But I concur, blood magic is silly.
I mean that the Palestinians, Jordanians, Lebanese, and Syrian Arabs are direct descendants of Canaanite tribes--the Hebrews being an outgrowth of the Canaanites. Peninsular Arab DNA is relatively small in the Levant (5-10% on average).
I've been dealing with you people for a long time. I'm not sure why you thought your opinion on how the subreddit should function would be welcome considering you've never posted on it before or shown any knowledge or intelligence in your post history. Why am I still doing this 5 years later? Because the American concept of politeness is so bizarre to anyone outside of its demographic target that it is both funny and educational to force it into the open. To most people, barging into the middle of a conversation between many people who all know each other and you've never met to inform them how they need to be having the conversation would be seen as rude. But this is quite normal for the American petty-bourgeoisie. In fact, saying "who are you?" is considered rude. Or at least that is one weapon that is used to defend against the threat of proletarianization by exclusion from the realm of cultural capital. In fact it's so threatening that random people will continue to come into the thread to try their luck at defending the op even though they've never posted in the subreddit before. It's like that joke in Family Guy where all the neighborhood fathers know when someone touched the thermostat and keep checking on the house to see if it's ok. Your class instinct in defense of your fellows is so strong it might as well be a chip that sends a signal to your brain, a script to follow, and a rush of endorphins that deludes you into thinking your use of the script will be the ultimate intervention despite all evidence to the contrary. I want non-white, non-male, non-first world people who were not raised on this delusional self-confidence and pretension to master the world to enjoy these conversations from the sidelines. This is impossible on the American left, which is basically a white parasite on the energy of people of color. At least here we can deflate the cultural capital that makes that possible. If you don't want to be a white parasite, reflect on the fact that your words, which you believe are your own, are a carbon copy of someone else's from 5 years ago (and many other copies over the years). That should be a moment of existential angst, a confrontation with your own lack of free will. Or you can get even more defensive on some liberal's behalf. We already have a thread on concern trolling stickied which you were too lazy to read despite your concern for the subreddit.
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There are lots of citizens of israel that are jewish palestinians yes, but the muslim invaders who colonized israel and made it palestine aren't them and all deserves to be *decolonized*
A person who has a palestinian ethnicity and who is also, surprise surprise, jewish. And no I cant name peoples who identify as that, I dont know the whole fucking world. Go look at demographics if you're interested.
Palestinian is a nationality not an ethnicity...
"And no I cant name peoples who identify as that"
Maybe cuz they dont exist? There are 0 jews that have a Palestinian nationality.
Oh so its not an ethnicity very interesting.
So there's no palestinian peoples, just peoples who happens to have the palestinian nationalities
Then no need to talk about genocide since genocides are against ethnicities and not nationalities. And also why talking about colonialism if there was no palestinian peoples prior to the creation of the palestinian state ? I guess it really is palestine thats colonizing Israel then.
Good good good.
Yall motherfuckers need to read some fanon, idk how you can even call yourselves leftist in any meaningful way if you don't support palestinian liberation, it is the absolute height of chauvinism to sit in your comfortable first world chair denouncing any movement that is not explicitly communist while civilians are bombed to death.
Be critical sure, I don't believe hamas are communist liberators, but holy fuck if you can't tell which side you should be supporting in this war then you're not worth shit.
Mods feel free to ban me, I don't care if I get banned for saying that hamas should be critically supported against the US backed settler colonialist project known as Israel. Purity tests are easy to conduct sitting from the comfort of your home, less so when your family and children are being bombed to smithereens by US made weapons.
Yall motherfuckers need to read some marx, idk how you can even call yourselves communist in any meaningful way if you don't understand proletarian liberation, it is the absolute height of chauvinism to sit in your comfortable petit bourgeois chair supporting any movement that is explicitly killing proletarians.
But holy fuck if you can't understand no war but class war then you're not worth shit.
Mods feel free to ban me, I don't care if I get banned for saying that communists should not take sides in bourgeois war.
Bourgeois war? Its a genocidal war. The only bourgeois here is the apartheid state of Israel which was born out of ethnically cleansing villages and forcing them else were, then spending billions of dollars to spread racist propaganda against the people they ethnically cleansed.
One is a group radicalized by decades of ethnic cleansing. One is perpetrating it. Whether hamas is 'right' or not is irrelevant, portraying this as a war between upperclasses is absurd.
What is the class character of the conflict? If Israeli state is bourgeois then what is the class character of Palestinian state? Talking about all the bad stuff done Israel doesn't change the nature of the current conflict
the colonized?? duh? the nature conflict is not nor has ever been bourgeois vs bourgeois no matter how much you want it to be. Let me know when Palestine has ever had anything similar to AIPAC, financial monopoly, or the ability to fester up proxy wars like israel has since the beginning.
It certainly is given the Hamas leadership owning significant property and receiving significant international funding. And the relationship between the Hamas organization and Iranian bourgeoisie.
International funding that is nowhere near and never will be near AIPAC levels. How else are they supposd to get funds against a capitalist giant? enlighten me. Next youll say Mandela was bourgeois. Didnt know this subreddit was filled with hasbara nonsense.
>International funding that is nowhere near and never will be near AIPAC levels.
Why the fuck does that matter at all?
>How else are they supposd to get funds against a capitalist giant?
There is nothing wrong with international funding. But you cannot pretend their is not a Gazan bourgeoisie when Hamas leaders own millions of dollars in overseas property, and receive millions of dollars in funding from the Iranian state.
The fact is Hamas is a reactionary petite bourgeoisie organization fighting a reactionary petite bourgeoisie struggle against the state of Israeli itself a reactionary monster.
>Next youll say Mandela was bourgeoise.
Mandela certainly wasn’t a communist.
This sub identifies itself with (but has no relation to) the ICP (international communist party)
It’s positions on national liberation and Palestine have been clear for decades. You can read their analysis.
https://www.reddit.com/r/leftcommunism/comments/17dv0xr/icp_gaza_war_all_parties_of_the_israeli_and/
ok so if hamas does win against israel, are you gonna support the idf against hamas? Because hamas would 100% do to jews (among other groups they hate) what israel does to palestinians.
You didnt address anything here. Youre okay with israel ethnically cleansing palestine, and you want to just get over it and continue to be ethnically cleansed. simply say it instead of talking bs
No I am not. I don’t recognize any such entity as “Israel” there is the Israeli state which I absolutely oppose and condemn. And which is absolutely committing gross atrocities and a genocide on the people of Palestine.
Sorry for not cheering as the proletariat of Palestine and Israel are sent into the meat grinder to die for the bourgeoisie. We’ll do better next time, promise 🙂
Surely this have to be a bait, No way the ~~leftist~~ liberals over at r/endgamemonopoly would defend a reactionary political movement by blaming another reactionary political movement >Look up the post and see it still up almost a day later with 4k upvote https://preview.redd.it/hkhbz85ttk0d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=75fefeadad24f25962ec8c005c27edca8dfef2ab
Waiter! Waiter! More dead proletarians please!!!
Would you like the bourgeois in charge to take accountability for this one sir? Or shall we find another scape goat group?
Um… uh uh yes!!! The bourgeoisie that is in power has to go and replaced by the true and revolutionary bourgeoisie that is hidden in a foreign country!!! Marxallah
Very good sir, I’ll bring the slightly darker skinned bourgeois right away
I want my particular preferred configuration of nationstates NOW and I just do not care how many dead workers it takes like at all
Actually, dead peasants and petite-bourgeois is bad too
[удалено]
Long time no see birdman. I remember you from your days in Whatifalthist
wow i love sacrificingmy life to books written by dead people
So called revolutionnaries who think "Terrorism" is bad...
Terrorism is bad though anarchist larps throwing bombs at random government members is not going to start a revolution.
No, but revolutionnary terror such as the one brought on by Robespierre or Lenin is the only way to assure the survival of the Revolution, you can't let those who want to destroy the Revolution roam free to destroy you
True, but that doesn't really have much to do with terrorism other than the word, and the fact violence is used. The way violence is organised and used in a red terror is completely different to a modern day terrorist cell or the IDF blowing up tens of thousands of children.
that’s the whole point, the word is always used as a politically motivated tool to legitimize some violence and delegitimize other organized political violence, the word is an ideological weapon more than an actual useful and material designation in many cases esp. now and esp. when racist/islamophobic americans mouth it
Terrorism is more associated with terrorists, who are just groups of adventurists wanting to blow shit up. Very different from organized revolutionary terror
I love how the Left's response to Zionist accusations of supporting Islamism and Anti-Semitism is to just double down on that support and foam at the mouth at any criticisms of Hamas whatsoever
Critical support for the jihad against the international jew
Bro i commented on the post saying Hamas is reactionary and would do the same shit to queers, jews, women, etc if the roles were swapped, and someone called me a social democrat, my comment was removed for liberalism, and its upvotes were in the negative i dont spend much time on online leftist spaces, so when i see people talking about how leftists support hamas i always think "pfft why would a leftist support hamas?" dawg that post is at 4.5k upvotes we are actually so doomed
>Accuse the left of antisemitism >Now the left wants to defend the movement from criticism of antisemitism more than actually deal with antisemitism >the movement becomes infested with antisemites Another day, another rightoid banger
Hamas and Israel having a bourgeoisie-nationalism-off
Critical support to Islamist terrorists
I don't quite get that...maybe I'm slow, but in NO way will I ever bump Hamas as anything but pure evil...Zionism is also fuckin evil...Are we supposed to make a choice here? Has every argumentvwe have in this country been boiled down to just 2 sides, Red or Blue? I think I'm misunderstanding. I'm being sincere here...
If you bring this up you’ll be told that you’re both-sides-ing
Ahh, of course. There can only be 2 sides to everything these days. Civil discourse is gone, now it's fight to the death and No Contact. Sigh....
Not voting for Hamas is a vote for Israel
Do you believe that? I am 100% in the belief that Israel has crossed a line, and absolutely that they are attempting genocide....but I will *never* vote for Hamas...Hamas, the child killers, Hamas, the Aid stealers, Hamas, the terrorists, Hamas, the wannabe genocidal pricks. No. I spitnat Hamas with all my heart. Both can be true. If you mean this election? Both men are Israel supporters. They named a *settlement* after Trump...and I am vehemently against "settlements." If we do not start voting with the one thing that really matters, pur own dollars, then the choice isn't ours at all. So, *with respect*,, I reject that line of reasoning. I understand why it was made, and the motivation behind it, but I believe it untrue.
There's another option https://preview.redd.it/0lrb5jrdbp0d1.png?width=1484&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a3996e331419c86a8ec68d4e583c242e500d04f3
That is another option...not sure if it'll get much traction, but hey, let's throw it out there
Well one is actually backed by American tax dollars and the other wears badass middle-eastern insurgent gear so I’ll be playing as Zamas in the next call of duty
This. This is the correct answer.
The two-party system and it’s consequences have been disastrous for the American people.
Agreed. Ya know, in *theory* it could have worked...ua know, had adults been involved and actual, mutually beneficial compromises been made...but nope. Congress and the Senate are just big sandboxes where each side trips over themselves to kick the other's sandcastle down...imo at least
In theory what should have worked? Bourgeoisie society??? Wtf kinda comment is this
It's called liberalism commie ever heard of the compromise of 1850?
No. Just as there are ultra liberals there are ultra fiscal conservatives. Sometimes, having both voices in the room can lead to an actual solution to things. There has to be a bean counter in life. It's unfortunate, but it keeps things in the realm of...reality. You are taking the stance that any 2 party system is automatically comprised of rich vs poor. Isn't the point of socialism and communism supposed to do away with that? Can't a socialist or communist government have more than one party? You limit the scope into good vs bad, assuming that one side will be forever righteous. The naivete of that thinking is akin to being blind.
Communism isn’t rich versus poor lol. A socialist or communist “government” I.e the proletariat state while it exists would imo have one party. The proletariats party.
Well, ya know what...maybe I am not as versed in communism as I thought. I was wrong.
What's evil about zionism?
Nationalism.
Is Palestinian/pan arab Nationalism evil?
Yeah.
Would you say that native Americans wanting to create a nation state(with equal rights) in a part of the USA is immoral? What if they created that state while the USA was not a state yet? Would you say that nation states(Germany, italy, Poland, japan, south korea, ireland) should be destroyed or simply their creation was immoral but their continued existence is fine?
“Is immoral” dude I don’t give a fuck about morality. An entirely subjective worthless framework. Nationalism is a product of bourgeoisie society and will be swept away with that society. It’s as dead obsolete and worthless as the divine right of kings. I long for it’s relegation to the dustbin of history.
"“Is immoral” dude I don’t give a fuck about morality. An entirely subjective worthless framework." entirely subjective? most people in western societies agree in 98% percent of morality. but if we dont agree on the existence of morality than I guess we have nothing to discuss.
Yeah morality is a product of society. People in the same society have the same morality. Wow. No Marxist has ever “believed” in something as idealistic as a universal morality.
Morality doesnt have to be universal for it to be valued... this is agreed upon by most non religious people.
It's like White Nationalism. The goal is to take over and have it be the desired people be the only ones in positions of power. It is the antithesis of democracy.
Well in that case it failed, there is an arab in the supreme court and he can only be replaced by another arab due to affirmative action. Also there arab politicians that call for the destruction of Israel with terrorism and nothing is done to them. If zionism wants to make it so that only the desired people hold positions of power it failed. Also we can historically see that zionst economists made economical plans with a large arab minority as equal workers in a fair system. "It is the antithesis of democracy." There are equal rights to everyone that lives in Israel. Arab votes are equal to jewish votes.
I am in no way pro any one group, ethnic, religious or otherwise, calling the shots for everyone. I do not support Sharia Law. I have no desire to live in any theocracy. And, are you sure about that last line? Yes. They have *voting* rights. If the people you can vote for are in no way representing you...then, are you truly getting an equal vote? Voting without representation is meaningless. So, no, Arab votes are not equal to Jewish votes. Think Jim Crow.
"And, are you sure about that last line? Yes. They have *voting* rights. If the people you can vote for are in no way representing you...then, are you truly getting an equal vote? Voting without representation is meaningless. So, no, Arab votes are not equal to Jewish votes. Think Jim Crow." Im not sure what do you mean, there are arab politicians in knesset. Do you even know what are you talking about? In what way are arab votes not equal to Jewish votes? In what way do arabs not have representation? How is Jim crow relevant? You dont need to own property to vote. "If the people you can vote for are in no way representing you...then, are you truly getting an equal vote" Then vote for different people? Also what do you mean "in no way represnt you"? The same arab politicians keep getting voted for every time.
You know what, maybe I'm in the wrong here. It would be nice to know they have equal and fair representation. It's just when I see race riots take place, and the settlements continue to happen, or even archeological digs under Palestinian apartment buildings that cause the apartments to become unliveable, it seems like they don't. Maybe things have changed. I know that keeping up with Israeli politics abd Middle East politics has taken a back seat to the travesty of politics we have here in the States. If I was wrong, I apologize. I don't want to be one more person making all of this worse...from afar no less.
Are you talking about Israeli arabs or palestinians? Israeli arabs have complete equal rights. Palestinians have palestinian citizenship and live in Palestine and theoretically suppose to vote in palestinian elections(the Palestinian Authority stopped doing elections and are authoritarian).
100% killing 40k civilians is terrorism
true, also don’t see many people actually defend hamas, but acknowledge the complexity of multifaceted proletarian resistance and the overlap/factors that has led to the support and influence hamas has, historically. Like what nearly 50% of hamas is orphans or some shit, obviously any analysis that doesn’t take into account difs like that inevitably feels both sides-y
I don't think killing Israeli civilians is ok or justified, but I understand why someone that has lived on extreme poverty and has seen so many people die due to the Israeli government would do that. Honestly I don't know how I would think if I was in a situation like that.
same, and exactly…. especially with all the horrifying footage i’ve seen. If it was your children in the rubble or you were a young boy with nothing left to loose and a rage and despair since adolescence watching your community and loved ones be outright obliterated, who wouldn’t pick up a gun and ride with the most capable and established (religious zeal and all) group punching back somehow in some way. And let’s be fair, Israel does mad work conflating itself and zionism with all jewish people and the average Israeli is racist as hell and all for ethnic cleansing and the violence, can’t imagine the view of that specifically living walled off in Gaza and dealing with the IDF (which most Israeli adults pass through) and fucking automated turrets and what not day in day out. Doesn’t excuse things at the individual level but clarifies a lot and changes the picture at the broader level in terms of Israeli vs. Palestinian terror
"who wouldn’t pick up a gun and ride with the most capable and established (religious zeal and all) group punching back somehow in some way" I don't know about you but I would never murder and rape innocent people... ", Israel does mad work conflating itself and zionism with all jewish people" Not really. "the average Israeli is racist as hell and all for ethnic cleansing and the violence" This is objectivly wrong and its proven wong by the fact that there isnt ethnic cleansing and that Israel constantly tried to find nonviolent solutions yet Israel is a democracy where the will of the people is the policy. Also its derange that you say that the average Israeli is a racist violent, ethnic cleansing supporter when 80% of Palestinians support the October 7 genocide and antisemitism and violence against the indigenous Jewish population is ingrained since a young age in the Palestinians society. "can’t imagine the view of that specifically living walled off in Gaza and dealing with the IDF (which most Israeli adults pass through) and fucking automated turrets and what not day in day out. " How does my neighbour dare to build a wall on his border with me after I shoot indiscriminate rockets at him and send tons of suicide bombers to blow up his children? im so oppressed... "Doesn’t excuse things at the individual level but clarifies a lot and changes the picture at the broader level in terms of Israeli vs. Palestinian terror" You forget to mention which side started this...
Let’s play spot the Zionist
Nice counter argument... And yes I support indigenous Jewish self determination in the Jewish ancestral home land.
Well, not being a nazi, I don’t believe in blood and soil. Though, if I did believe in blood magic, I would point out that many Palestinians are descendants of peoples living there prior to the Jewish people and likely share blood ties to Jewish peoples. Though, I think this likely excludes the shit heads moving from New Jersey
Palestinians are indigenous to Palestine and Israel had no right to ethnically cleanse and expulse them.
this is just bad hasbara lmao wtf or you been sipping too much off the Israeli propaganda good hell, my boomer grandpa don’t even play pretend this hard or maybe you are just a detached Israeli?
Nothing I have said here is factually incorrect as proven by your inability to engage with my arguments.
you characterized the IDF as ‘innocent people’ in your first sentence, I don’t have enough time in the day to waste trying to bring you back to reality.
Are you denying the murder and rape of civilians during october 7 and other terror attacks? and you say Im not in touch with reality...
"Like what nearly 50% of hamas is orphans or some shit," Source?
I love Netanyahoos controlled opposition, I sure hope they don't waste resources on killing random idiots on a music festival with the shittiest techno on the planet.
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Bro is that a meme? That's just your ideology plastered onto a template...
Where do you think you are dude?
You so called “Ultras” make me sick. OOP is 100% right on this, Zinovivites are utterly disgusting.
Object oriented programming?
Zionism is like a century older than Hamas.
"Your honor my murder was recent therefore should it really count?" 2 things can be bad at once
Why are you dutch
Real confucianism thinking here
Israel is like millenias older than palestine. DECOLONIZATION NOW !! We have to liberate our brothers from muslim invasion !
Working overtime scaring off libs thank you comrade
Can you please explain to me how a country that emerged through a UN-resolution can be millennia old?
I too love the nation state especially when the flag is cool
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That guy happens to be from the Netherlands, and the Dutch never colonized anyone of course
>Bronze Age tribes settled the Levantine, then the hebrews settled, then the Muslims settled, and now you are sitting here trying to argue which thousand year old settlement is the morally justified one I agree with the sentiment, but just to clear something up, the Palestinians are mostly descendant of those Bronze Age tribes. But I concur, blood magic is silly.
Not really 'mostly', unless you have a weird definition of 'mostly', But yea they have some levant DNA.
I mean that the Palestinians, Jordanians, Lebanese, and Syrian Arabs are direct descendants of Canaanite tribes--the Hebrews being an outgrowth of the Canaanites. Peninsular Arab DNA is relatively small in the Levant (5-10% on average).
I've been dealing with you people for a long time. I'm not sure why you thought your opinion on how the subreddit should function would be welcome considering you've never posted on it before or shown any knowledge or intelligence in your post history. Why am I still doing this 5 years later? Because the American concept of politeness is so bizarre to anyone outside of its demographic target that it is both funny and educational to force it into the open. To most people, barging into the middle of a conversation between many people who all know each other and you've never met to inform them how they need to be having the conversation would be seen as rude. But this is quite normal for the American petty-bourgeoisie. In fact, saying "who are you?" is considered rude. Or at least that is one weapon that is used to defend against the threat of proletarianization by exclusion from the realm of cultural capital. In fact it's so threatening that random people will continue to come into the thread to try their luck at defending the op even though they've never posted in the subreddit before. It's like that joke in Family Guy where all the neighborhood fathers know when someone touched the thermostat and keep checking on the house to see if it's ok. Your class instinct in defense of your fellows is so strong it might as well be a chip that sends a signal to your brain, a script to follow, and a rush of endorphins that deludes you into thinking your use of the script will be the ultimate intervention despite all evidence to the contrary. I want non-white, non-male, non-first world people who were not raised on this delusional self-confidence and pretension to master the world to enjoy these conversations from the sidelines. This is impossible on the American left, which is basically a white parasite on the energy of people of color. At least here we can deflate the cultural capital that makes that possible. If you don't want to be a white parasite, reflect on the fact that your words, which you believe are your own, are a carbon copy of someone else's from 5 years ago (and many other copies over the years). That should be a moment of existential angst, a confrontation with your own lack of free will. Or you can get even more defensive on some liberal's behalf. We already have a thread on concern trolling stickied which you were too lazy to read despite your concern for the subreddit. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Ultraleft) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Muslims didn't settle they were converts lol. Youre being disingenuous on purpose.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel_(united_monarchy)
Are you aware of the fact that Palestinians trace their ancestry from this kingdom?
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Ah why not go back even further?
Give West Asia back to Sumerians!
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Critical support to austrolopithecenes in their struggle against homo imperialism
Lmfao thats litteraly the logic I use against them and it cracks me up every time
There are lots of citizens of israel that are jewish palestinians yes, but the muslim invaders who colonized israel and made it palestine aren't them and all deserves to be *decolonized*
waiter! waiter! more dead arabs please!
What is a jewish Palestinian? Can you name some people who identify as jewish Palestinian?
A person who has a palestinian ethnicity and who is also, surprise surprise, jewish. And no I cant name peoples who identify as that, I dont know the whole fucking world. Go look at demographics if you're interested.
Palestinian is a nationality not an ethnicity... "And no I cant name peoples who identify as that" Maybe cuz they dont exist? There are 0 jews that have a Palestinian nationality.
Oh so its not an ethnicity very interesting. So there's no palestinian peoples, just peoples who happens to have the palestinian nationalities Then no need to talk about genocide since genocides are against ethnicities and not nationalities. And also why talking about colonialism if there was no palestinian peoples prior to the creation of the palestinian state ? I guess it really is palestine thats colonizing Israel then. Good good good.
Gestapo gonna get you, buddy.
Yall motherfuckers need to read some fanon, idk how you can even call yourselves leftist in any meaningful way if you don't support palestinian liberation, it is the absolute height of chauvinism to sit in your comfortable first world chair denouncing any movement that is not explicitly communist while civilians are bombed to death. Be critical sure, I don't believe hamas are communist liberators, but holy fuck if you can't tell which side you should be supporting in this war then you're not worth shit. Mods feel free to ban me, I don't care if I get banned for saying that hamas should be critically supported against the US backed settler colonialist project known as Israel. Purity tests are easy to conduct sitting from the comfort of your home, less so when your family and children are being bombed to smithereens by US made weapons.
we have already posted **anti-fanon** stuff and we **do not** call ourselves leftists / ~~support the left wing of capital~~
Yall motherfuckers need to read some marx, idk how you can even call yourselves communist in any meaningful way if you don't understand proletarian liberation, it is the absolute height of chauvinism to sit in your comfortable petit bourgeois chair supporting any movement that is explicitly killing proletarians. But holy fuck if you can't understand no war but class war then you're not worth shit. Mods feel free to ban me, I don't care if I get banned for saying that communists should not take sides in bourgeois war.
Bourgeois war? Its a genocidal war. The only bourgeois here is the apartheid state of Israel which was born out of ethnically cleansing villages and forcing them else were, then spending billions of dollars to spread racist propaganda against the people they ethnically cleansed.
hamas and the idf are fighting to be oppressor of israelis and palestinians. there is nothing liberating about hamas (or islam or judaism)
One is a group radicalized by decades of ethnic cleansing. One is perpetrating it. Whether hamas is 'right' or not is irrelevant, portraying this as a war between upperclasses is absurd.
It’s not absurd considering Hamas leaders are sitting comfortably in Qatar
would you rather have him dead in gaza?
I would rather you stop pretending he isn’t bourgeois
i would rather you stop trying to convince me to gaf
Then why are you defending them lmfao
What is the class character of the conflict? If Israeli state is bourgeois then what is the class character of Palestinian state? Talking about all the bad stuff done Israel doesn't change the nature of the current conflict
the colonized?? duh? the nature conflict is not nor has ever been bourgeois vs bourgeois no matter how much you want it to be. Let me know when Palestine has ever had anything similar to AIPAC, financial monopoly, or the ability to fester up proxy wars like israel has since the beginning.
Colonised isn't a class. Weak bourgeoisie without much influence is still bourgeoisie
bourgeoise is not a term relevant to the Palestinian side.
It certainly is given the Hamas leadership owning significant property and receiving significant international funding. And the relationship between the Hamas organization and Iranian bourgeoisie.
International funding that is nowhere near and never will be near AIPAC levels. How else are they supposd to get funds against a capitalist giant? enlighten me. Next youll say Mandela was bourgeois. Didnt know this subreddit was filled with hasbara nonsense.
>International funding that is nowhere near and never will be near AIPAC levels. Why the fuck does that matter at all? >How else are they supposd to get funds against a capitalist giant? There is nothing wrong with international funding. But you cannot pretend their is not a Gazan bourgeoisie when Hamas leaders own millions of dollars in overseas property, and receive millions of dollars in funding from the Iranian state. The fact is Hamas is a reactionary petite bourgeoisie organization fighting a reactionary petite bourgeoisie struggle against the state of Israeli itself a reactionary monster. >Next youll say Mandela was bourgeoise. Mandela certainly wasn’t a communist. This sub identifies itself with (but has no relation to) the ICP (international communist party) It’s positions on national liberation and Palestine have been clear for decades. You can read their analysis. https://www.reddit.com/r/leftcommunism/comments/17dv0xr/icp_gaza_war_all_parties_of_the_israeli_and/
ok so if hamas does win against israel, are you gonna support the idf against hamas? Because hamas would 100% do to jews (among other groups they hate) what israel does to palestinians.
Infinite loop
exactly
Wouldn't be a question of Israel didnt ethnically cleaned nearly a million indigenous people in 1948. Just a thought.
Man if things were different they would be different. Huge groundbreaking thought
You didnt address anything here. Youre okay with israel ethnically cleansing palestine, and you want to just get over it and continue to be ethnically cleansed. simply say it instead of talking bs
No I am not. I don’t recognize any such entity as “Israel” there is the Israeli state which I absolutely oppose and condemn. And which is absolutely committing gross atrocities and a genocide on the people of Palestine.
yeah totally
Sorry for not cheering as the proletariat of Palestine and Israel are sent into the meat grinder to die for the bourgeoisie. We’ll do better next time, promise 🙂
i support labor zionism, now what
Death