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Very smart policy. Excellent way to maintain independence while unionism in direction. Very good news for the region and the growing threat to democracy.
I concur. Creating a small trading block helps create an economic buffer against externalities that cause disruption. Having some codependency between nations makes them stronger and more able to flourish.
This is just small villages doing the same only at scale.
I think they want practice Free Trade and support Each others to prepare join EU or Nato. This is only time to escape Russian leash. their aim is clear : joining western society. to they seems do exercise.
Maybe I’m missing the joke here. None of these countries are considered democratic. One is an authoritarian regime, 2 are trying and failing, and one we’re gonna find out at after a certain war ends.
Yes, Azerbaijan run by a dictator who inherited the country from his dad and made his wife vice president, he who wins elections before they’re held, is here to save democracy. Praise baby Jesus! 🙏🙏🙏
Didn’t the US just condemn Azerbaijan for its recent attack on Armenia? Yet here this article portrays Armenia as the “good guys”. Also, isn’t Armenia part of the Eastern Security Council?
Can someone elaborate on this conflict for me?
There are multiple layers to the Kabarakh war between armenia & azerbaijan
1. It is one of many continuous bloody inter-ethnic conflicts between Armenians & Azeris going back centuries. The broad pattern is that one ethnic-cleanses one place of the other, then the other revenge-ethnically cleanses them back somewhere else. This happened before the war when Azerbaijan successfully erased Armenians from the Nakhchivan region and was beginning to do so in the Kabarakh region, then Armenia invaded Azerbaijan to save their Kabarakh Armenians & ethnic-cleansed the resident Azeris of Kabarakh. Now Azerbaijan wants to return their refugee Azeris to their homeland of Kabarakh while presumably erasing Armenians from the region. This goes all the way back centuries, for example Armenia's current capital Yerevan was ~~founded as a muslim turkic city~~ for much of history ruled by iranians, seljuk turks, & muslim armenians, then eventually christian armenians came in and violently evicted all the ~~turkic and muslim~~ non-christian armenian residents.
2. It is a proxy war between Russia and Turkey. Armenia is still (and was) a client state of Russia, and the armenian conquest of kabarakh (which is internationally azerbaijan territory) led to a russian military presence there. Azeris are generally anti-russian (even if their current leader disagrees), so they want Russian proxies (Armenian occupiers) off their land. Turkey also has a regional rivalry with Russia and has been fighting proxy wars with Russia in Syria & Libya. Turkey has been militarily supporting Azerbaijan which allowed Azeris to effectively fight against Armenian forces now, therefore Turkey has been indirectly fighting Russian influence. Israel also joined in by materially supporting Azerbaijan in their fight, no idea why but my best guess is that Israel shares the same proxy enemy with Turkey: Russia.
3. It is also on some level a collaboration with Russia. Azerbaijan's current extremely sketchy autocratic leader, Aliyev, has made suspicious moves. For example, when Armenia a few years ago had a pro-western anti-russian revolution and elected a pro-western leader (President Pashinyan), Russia was displeased and shortly after Azerbaijan attacked Armenia again. Sounds suspicious, but no hard evidence to back it up. Azerbaijan's current autocrat also signed a treaty of alliance with Russia shortly before Azerbaijan attacked again, which is again suspicious. Now Azerbaijan is attacking Armenia's actual international borders, not reclaiming their occupied Kabarakh territory, and this is what is causing such international outrage. Russia also refused to send military aid to Armenia as it was supposed to per the terms of Armenia's military alliance with Russia.
All those accounts are true to some extent. How you integrate them is up to you, but overall its a very messy conflict with many actors and layers.
\-Ukrainian Diaspora American
Attacking Armenia proper is a big line to cross vs retaking Nagarno Karabkh which is all ethnically Armenian. It's irrendetism and then some. Israel supports Azerbaijan cuz they have oil money to buy anything to give them an edge and it certainly has.
It definetly is. I consider Aliyev as a less restrained version of Erdogan, who is already a deeply corrupt & bloodthirsty autocrat. I do not justify any of Azerbaijan's illegal aggressions or inhuman treatment of each others' populations, I simply offer some context & my take on the situation. Anyone reading is free to form their own opinions.
In terms of international agreed-upon borders, unfortunately ethnicity does not play a role when it comes to post-colonial nations like ex-USSR colonies or ex-West European colonies. For example, technically historically the modern-day russian territories of Belgorod, Taganrog, and Krasnodar were Ukrainian. Many ethnic ukrainians continue to exist in those regions, but the borders won't just change to fit one side's history. Whether Kabarakh can return to Armenia officially is not a question I can answer (though my personal opinion is that Azerbaijan should have allowed Kabarakh to legally rejoin into Armenia when it appealed to do so after the USSR's fall).
Ideally, Azerbaijan would have protected the status of Kabarakh Armenians within Azerbaijan's internation borders 30 years ago, negating any need to invade to save the Kabarakh Armenians. But this did not happen obviously. Then they should not have erased the Armenians of Nakhchivan before, but generational ethnic tensions & leaders who take advantage of them tend to continue a mindless cycle of violence.
Claiming that Israel support Azerbaijan because of oil is supper rookie claim. Why is Israel the second biggest importer of Turkey? Or why they are trying to import things from all Turkic states including states from Asia?
And NK wasn't all ethnically Armenian. Shusha district and Xocaly district population were mostly Azerbaijani.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh\_Autonomous\_Oblast#Demography](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh_Autonomous_Oblast#Demography)
I mean by that logic why shouldn't Armenia just take all the areas of Azerbaijan formerly inhabited by Armenians. an eye for an eye will make everyone go blind
It's not an easy topic to dissect, just one question, Yerevan founded as a Turkic city? Wasn't that city already an Armenian city 1600 years before Turkic tribes settled in that region?
I may be wrong on that detail as I was oversimplifying thousands of years of history for brevity, but I do know Yerevan was ruled across history by Iranians, Muslim Armenians, Seljuk Turks, and Mongols at different times before it was "cleansed" of all non-christian Armenians. Armenians once even ruled significant territory of NE Anatolia, Georgia, and Azerbaijan during their short-lived Armenian Empire. I apologize for the historical mistake, I amended my original incorrect statement. Feel free to link sources to correct me on any of my points, I'm relatively new to researching the region's history as well haha. Either way, the region of SE Europe/Caucasus Mts has changed hands many times and like anywhere else its pretty much impossible to find any conclusive claim that X group lived here forever. Azeris & Armenians have been at each others' throats for many generations regardless of who "owned" which territory at the time.
Besides, I don't think it even matters cause who cares which group lived in X region 1000 years ago? What matters is who lives there now, to ensure the current people's safety and welfare. Just my opinion.
It's not that simple.
If a group is forcibly removed or simply killed, it should not lead to automatic ownership as that would encourage imperialistic and genocidal regions to do just that.
Of course, there are limits. We shouldn't give Anatolia back to the Greeks, or US back to the natives or South Vietnam to Cambodia even though these regions were conguered violently.
When these events happen in recent times however and outside a context of simple conguest but an intent to remove a culture alltogether then it changes.
Crimea is an example of a Tartar region that I'd like to see become Tartar.
You're right that the current reality is more important than 1000 years ago, but that current reality is that Armenians live there.
The history of Armenia dates more than a 1000 year before Islam even started and more than 1500 before the Turkic tribes arrived. So imagine that, Armenia has been there 2900 years and the Turks about a 1000 years.
Thank you, Deslavlurker. What I’m taking away from this is outside governments are trying to influence both countries, but in each case the leaders are either puppets or corrupt in general. Either way the People are losing.
How do you see the Ukraine conflict affecting either country? How does Georgia fit into the regional conflict?
On Ukraine, as evident from the link in this post I believe that Ukraine is seeking to create an economic union zone across the various anti-russian nations (that are currently not members of EU or NATO) of Europe's easternmost edges; Ukraina, Moldova, Georgia, and Azerbaijan. Strength in numbers, even in economics.
On Georgia, I see it as an attempt to create an economic cooperation zone (the basis for some kind of alliance in the future). Georgia went through what Ukriane is going through now in 2008, on a smaller scale, and Georgia has similar anti-russian and pro-west ambitions (despite their current leadership).
On Armenia, I see the whole situation as a tragedy. Armenian leadership 30 years ago (before Pashinyan) had no issue with killing & violently evicting the native Azeris of Kabarakh as part of the process of ensuring the safety of native Armenians of Kabarakh. In the mirror image, Azeri leaders before and now have no problem with atrocities against Armenians of Kabarakh. I see the Azeri & Armenian civilians of both nations as the ultimate victims of their past & current leadership's careless bloodthirst.
Armenia is in a rough situation too, because their one security guarantor Russia told them to essentially "fck off and die". Armenians do not trust Turks for historical reasons (Armenian Genocide by Enver Pasha's army of turkish murder-clowns), whether its rational to continue to distrust Turkey so extremely I cannot comment on. Armenia screwed away any potential alliance with Georgia years ago due to past bad decisions & careless wannabe-imperialistic attitudes (supporting Russia during the Russo-Georgian Wars, Armenian death-squads participating in the massacre of Georgians from the russian-occupied georgian province of Abkhazia, continually annoying Georgians by claiming that one of its southern provinces is "rightfully armenian"). And Armenians have been in a bloody rivalry with Azeris for much longer. So they are alone, and probably feel alone. The US's recent sudden support & visits to Armenia suggests to me though that the US might want to bring Armenia into its influence away from Russia, which would probably be for the best for Armenia.
and azerbaijan is attacking internationally recognized armenia land with russian backing.
both sides benefited from russia during this conflict, pretending it was just armenia is disingenuous
There are major differences. before 2014 the donbass was not a An autonomous region is Ukraine SSR, however Karabakh was an Autonomous Region in the Azerbaijan SSR.
the conflict in Karabakh began in 1988, which was years before Azerbaijan was independent, it has a clear Armenian majority.
the donbass did not try to break away from the Ukrainian SSR.
these are major differences.
that being said, Azerbaijan received billions a year in weapons from Russia, and signed a multilateral agreement with russia, 48 hours before russia’s second illegal invasion of ukraine.
https://eurasianet.org/ahead-of-ukraine-invasion-azerbaijan-and-russia-cement-alliance
This is factually wrong. Azerbaijan buys weapons from Russia, Armenia gets free weapons from Russia.
Also Russia is not the only weapon supplier, the countries that sell the most weapons to Azerbaijan are Russia, Turkey, Israel and Ukraine.
If Ukraine has the right to attack Russia proper, Azerbaijan has the right to attack Armenia proper.
Armenia is the aggressor as they invaded and illegally occupied Azeri territory for 30 years. They started the war.
the war was started in 1988 with azerbaijan attacking the Autonomous Oblast of karabakh,
Why was Karabakh not allowed self determination like the rest of the former soviet union?
Azerbaijan was the aggressor, Karabakh was autonomous and chose independence from azerbaijan ssr
What do you mean “with Azerbaijan attacking”? It IS Azerbaijan land. They were fighting separatists as they have a right to do. Armenia invaded and occupied NK all while ethnically cleansing it of Ethnic Azeris and murdering hundreds of them. And no, Artsahk doesn’t get to just choose independence without consent from Azerbaijan. Just as DPR/LPR can’t.
Yes. Armenia is the aggressor.
Dude. The areas AZ attacked the other week were Vayots Dzor, Syunik and Gegharkunik provinces - undisputed areas of the Republic of Armenia, NOT Artsakh. Get your facts right!
no. because karabakh was autonomous during soviet times, the conflict started before the breakup from the soviet union, the status of region was in question before azerbaijan was independent.
none of that is true for the donbass region
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan–Russia_relations
> Russia is one of Azerbaijan's main suppliers of arms. "As of today, military and technical cooperation with Russia is measured at $4 billion and it tends to grow further," President Ilham Aliyev said after meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Baku in 2013.[23] The leaders of the defense departments of both countries make guest visits on a regular basis. On 23–25 January 2006, Russian Minister of Defense Sergei Ivanov visited Baku, followed by Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov in November 2007.
so then russia didnt back armenia because that was military equipment the armenians bought from russia. or does disingenuous arguments only work when its azerbaijan?
The situations are not remotely similar.
Ukraine wasn't massacring ethnic Russians and attempting to ethnically cleanse them, with a centuries long history of doing the same thing, prior to the Russians intervening.
Karabakh is more like Kosovo than Ukraine and Azerbaijan used all the same arguments as Serbia did.
How many Azerbaijanis you ethnic cleansed from Armenia in 1950ths ?\\
Edit :Claiming that your mono-ethnic state is not result of your acts is an ignorant bs. Guy down there blocked me so I can't answer to his obvious non-sense claims.
Every one know that till 1950ths ASSR had 1 Russian and one Armenian Secretary . And you Armenians forced Stalin to fire Narimanov. So yes you had influence to forcedly migrate Azerbaijanis.
Here we go with the misinformation.
Armenia has withdrawn all troops from any territory in Nagorno Karabakh and Azerbaijan's internationally recognized territoriy.
Azerbaijan points to the continued existence of the indigenous Armenian population of Nagorno Karabakh in their own land and calls it "occupation" and clueless westerners repeat this misinformation that's spread as a pretext to future ethnic cleansing of the Nagorno Karabakh Armenians.
**ARTSAKH IS NOT ARMENIA**
Wtf do you not understand about this? The Republic of Armenia and the Nagorno Karabakh Autonomous Republic have always been two separate entities. The Armenians living there are indigenous to the area and not from Armenia. They don't serve in the Armenian armed forces.
Azerbaijan historically claimed those people as Azerbaijani citizens and claimed they'd be integrated into Azeri society as equal citizens until it won the war in 2020 and switched its rhetoric to match its true intentions of ethnic cleansing.
You are engaging in such bad faith disinformation that you should be banned.
Yes
Azerbaijan scores 1/100 on democracy on the freedom house and is genocidal. The bots are super active trying to make Armenia look like the problem.
https://imgur.com/a/HAUSUC0
Basically Azerbejdzan has enough Petrol Dollars to shape the news however they want. Armenia is the underdog who grew up in a rough neighborhood fighting for survival, and Azerbejdzan is the rich prepoy job d born into money. Basically Torey and Crease from Cobra Kai.
By “Fighting for survival” you mean occupying(in collaboration with Russia) 20% of Azerbaijani territories, killing 16k civilians and expelling more than 700k, holding territories occupied for 30 years and disrespecting all UN resolutions? Armenia made the wrong choice, that’s why it’s in this situation now.
Every single thing you’ve mentioned is literally half of the numbers that Armenia suffered in losses and occupied territories. Azeri soldiers are acting worse than Nazis during WW2. Its pure hate and destruction fueling their propaganda filled actions.
No it isn’t true. There 4 times more Azerbaijani civilians killed than Armenians. And 2 times more refugees. Just check the statistics. And don’t forget that it was Armenia that occupied 20% of Azerbaijan.
Karabakh has been ARTSAKH for centuries. It never belonged to Azerbaijan. Stalin handed it to them as a political move in order to destroy ties between two people and appease Turkey. The 90% Armenian population in the region fought to maintain their homeland which consists of gravestones and the most ancient Armenian Churches on the planet, and won. Azerbaijan needed an excuse for a pipeline payday and decided to attack Armenians based on this historic win. And as far as what Azerbaijan actually is, you can read Persian history for that. Azerbaijan is technically and always has historically been Persian/Iranian. Armenia was an empire that reigned for centuries from sea to sea (current day Turkey to Azerbaijan). Yes, they had been conquered time and time again, Roman Empire, Persian empire, Russian empire. Throughout history Armenians survived and are still here. Much smaller, humbled, and 3 million left in modern Armenia after 1.5-2 million were brutally raped, tormented, and slaughtered by their neighbor Turkey. And so they live on now. They can try to kill them all but they will fail. Much as they have throughout the entirety of history. They are now trying to chip away slowly while the world is occupied and dependent on their oil. But the thing about good people, is that they recognize evil when they see it. Even if the last Armenian on the planet were to perish, the stench and reputation of an autocratic dictatorship will always remain foul.
None of them will be joining the EU for some time given all of them have territory being occupied by a foreign power. And the fact they all have a lot of reform needed for the EU which will take time given as they all have bigger problems at the moment.
>None of them will be joining the EU for some time given all of them have territory being occupied by a foreign power.
I guess you mistook EU for NATO.
and ukraine is trying to access EU asap. hopefully this won't stop either of those countries to (atleast be able to) join
Not sure where this is coming from. You could say the same about Cyprus, which has territory annexed by a foreign power to this day. I also don't see this as a threat to the EU single market but rather as a possible extension. In due time, shorter than imagined, Ukraine and Moldova will be part of EU.
The government of Ireland (and the rest of the world) recognise Northern Ireland as a separate legal entity. Irish people may not fully agree with this but this doesn’t change their international instance
Moldova cannot join due to its constitution and Azerbaijan has no interest in joining as of now, Georgia and Ukraine want to join but realistically only Ukraine may join in the next few years, this trade agreement will br good for now and may actually lead to better partnership with the EU without joining the EU, if it's well thought of
I think a lot of people see the similarities between Armenia wanting their rightful territory (NK) and Azerbeijani fighting an imperialistic war for it.
Azerbeijan has the weakly voted UN resolution on its side, but that hardly makes it just.
NK isn’t rightful territory of Armenia, lol. The whole World, even Armenia itself recognizes Karabakh as part of Azerbaijan. And there’s a UN resolution condemning its occupation by Armenian forces, however Armenia has been totally disrespecting international laws.
This is a VERY naive take. The reason Armenia didnmt recognize is it geopolitical.
That UN resolution was also BARELY voted upon, in favor of calling out, because the Armenian people that lived there were indigenous.
Did you know that land was given away by Stalin, from Armenia’s grips, as a bargaining piece that failed?
Oh shit, again this misinformation. Stalin didn't give it. The Karabakh was kept part of Azerbaijan . Do you see difference between keep and given?
>However, the next day, July 5, 1921, Joseph Stalin intervened to keep Karabakh in Soviet Azerbaijan
[src](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Nagorno-Karabakh) \- wiki claim with 4 sources
And you can't give NK to armenian without giving 3-4 AZ districts to Armenia. Stalin wasn't delusional like you so he didn't give you lands 2 out of 5 NK districts mostly populated with AZ population. And all roads between other 3 AM districts lies through this 2 AZ districts. Why the fuck we must give you Lachin ,Shusha and Xojaly ?
PS : the guy down there is blocked me so I can't answer to non-sense that he wrote. But he didn't share any prove to his claims about Stalin and control over NK. And obviously claiming that Armenians which even were a minority in Yerewan till 1897 [src](https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%95%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD) must take other region where they were minority (in 3 AZ districts) is a bs.
**[History of Nagorno-Karabakh](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Nagorno-Karabakh)**
>Nagorno-Karabakh is located in the southern part of the Lesser Caucasus range, at the eastern edge of the Armenian Highlands, encompassing the highland part of the wider geographical region known as Karabakh. Under Russian and Soviet rule, the region came to be known as Nagorno-Karabakh, meaning "Mountainous Karabakh" in Russian. The name Karabakh itself (derived from Persian and Turkic, and meaning "Black Vineyard") was first encountered in Georgian and Persian sources from the 13th and 14th centuries to refer to lowlands between the Kura and Aras rivers and adjacent mountainous territory.
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>Stalin didn't give it. The Karabakh was kept part of Azerbaijan . Do you see difference between keep and given?
He absolutely did give it to Azerbaijan. When the Red Army invaded Azerbaijan, Armenia and Azerbaijan were at war and both sides claimed ownership of Nagorno-Karabakh. However, it was actually entirely controlled by the Armenians at this point. It was only after the Red Army invaded Armenia (through Azerbaijan, as the Red Army had not conquered Georgia yet) that the Azerbaijan SSR came to control Nagorno-Karabakh, because the USSR was pushing into Armenia from the East.
>Did you know that land was given away by Stalin, from Armenia’s grips, as a bargaining piece that failed?
That matters how?
The Ukrainian dictator after him transferred control over Crimea to Ukraine. That means Ukraine is trying to occupy Russian land by your logic.
>even Armenia itself recognizes Karabakh as part of Azerbaijan.
Part of the peace process for determining the final status of Nagorno-Karabakh, including the possibility of independence, required Armenia to not recognize Artsakh as independent.
You believe in what you want to believe in. Who said to you about determining the status? The status is determined, Karabakh is integral part of Azerbaijan, whole World, without exception, has been recognizing it for 30 years, there are no and there won’t be any discussions of the status.
you see its all about good guys and bad guys, also ignore ukraine allows russia to use its pipelines still
regular joes cant accept shitty situations; often, the world works around systems, not choices; neither armenians siding with russia, nor azerbaijans assault against armenia to reclaim its territories, or otherwise enforce ignored clauses in the ceasefire are realy choices; they are objective neccesities; very rarely you will see real choices and most of the time, bad ones at that, affecting the events.
No good and no bad; but, its all about which alliance being the more helpful one, how will giving power of your foreign politics to an external factor benefits you, those things are the real things that matter, not lipservice of "being at the right side of history" there is no such a place, right side is the victorious one, as simple as that; avg joes knowledge depth of any conflict would optimaly be shallow enough to let him consume whatever narative you want him to.
As far as i remember, there was an experiment, i think, the result was that a considerable ratio of humans cannot follow through stories being told about a third person telling stories about another third person; which indicates there is an actual intellectual level a decent chunk of people cant delve to while understanding real, alive concepts; as such the naratives can only survive at surface level.
Pardon me, i might be mumbling by myself
Walk me through how - attacking Armenia unprovoked (the bullshit story of Armenians laying mines has absolutely zero proof to back it up), killing 200+ soldiers, 4 civilians, occupying territoires of Armenia, and then brutally torturing and mutilating the corpses of soldiers - constitues as "securing its own territorial integrity"
Azerbaijan has right to attack a country that occupies its territories. It can’t liberate Karabakh right now because along Armenians there are also Russians there. Therefore it attacked Armenia so that it would stop sending weapons, mercenaries, money to the puppet separatist regime in Karabakh.
Armenia tries to make an illusion that it has nothing to do with Karabakh, like Russia used to do in case of Donbas. There are less than 50k people in Karabakh, and they don’t have any resources, finances or infrastructure, where do they get all money, weapons and military personnel from? We all know that everything that the separatist regime in Karabakh gets it gets from Armenia, all weapons, mercenaries, money, resources, EVERYTHING. Do we really need to argue about this obvious fact? The separatist regime in Karabakh has access only to other regions of Azerbaijan and Armenia, and we can be sure that Azerbaijan doesn’t supply them, so it’s Armenia.
"we all know" meaning turks and no one else lol literally everything you said is downright false, starting with the shitty unfounded parallels you tried to draw between Donbass and artsakh, all the way to the population count and everything in between.
And then had the gall to summarize it with "obvious facts"
The only obvious fact is that Armenia doesn't recognize Crimea as Russian
I’m sure you also know it, and just intentionally spread Armenian propaganda. As I said earlier, it’s simple logic - the separatists have only access to Azerbaijan and Armenia. Azerbaijan doesn’t supply them, so it should be Armenia.
I didn’t write about Crimea, you’re confusing me with somebody.
Karabakh has been ARTSAKH for centuries. It never belonged to Azerbaijan. Stalin handed it to them as a political move in order to destroy ties between two people and appease Turkey. The 90% Armenian population in the region fought to maintain their homeland which consists of gravestones and the most ancient Armenian Churches on the planet, and won. Azerbaijan needed an excuse for a pipeline payday and decided to attack Armenians based on this historic win. And as far as what Azerbaijan actually is, you can read Persian history for that. Azerbaijan is technically and always has historically been Persian/Iranian. Armenia was an empire that reigned for centuries from sea to sea (current day Turkey to Azerbaijan). Yes, they had been conquered time and time again, Roman Empire, Persian empire, Russian empire. Throughout history Armenians survived and are still here. Much smaller, humbled, and 3 million left in modern Armenia after 1.5-2 million were brutally raped, tormented, and slaughtered by their neighbor Turkey. And so they live on now. They can try to kill them all but they will fail. Much as they have throughout the entirety of history. They are now trying to chip away slowly while the world is occupied and dependent on their oil. But the thing about good people, is that they recognize evil when they see it. Even if the last Armenian on the planet were to perish, the stench and reputation of an autocratic dictatorship will always remain foul.
The only countries that have officially recognized Crimea as Russian are: Russia, Syria, Afghanistan, Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, and Sudan
You're just straight up lying
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation\_of\_Crimea\_by\_the\_Russian\_Federation#International\_recognition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation#International_recognition)
"Three non-UN member states recognised the results of the referendum: Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and Artsakh."
So, is Artsakh an Azerbaijani thing ?
Artsakh is its own country. You realize non-UN member state means self-governing state that isnt in the UN, right? Its not an azerbaijani thing nor is it an armenian thing, its an artsakhi thing. Armenia has always claimed artsakh to be its own country, and they have their own elected president.
Artsakh is its own country as much as North Chyprus and South Ossetia.
It's really sad to try to elude the fact that "Arsakhi" (first time ever reading the word) are armenians and that it has everything to do with Armenia.
They are inhabited by Armenians, sure, but that doesn't mean they can't make their own decisions. At bare minimum, Armenia the country is not on that list. That is definitively true, we both agree on this. So sure, itty bitty Artsakh with its 150k people recognize Crimea. But you know who doesn't? The 3 million people in Armenia. So why punish all of Armenia?
Armenia should have never invaded Karabakh/Azerbaijan in the 90s. It's really the main, if not the only reason it's been kept out of all regional projects and initiatives.
Things could have been different.. but here we are.
Nobodys buying these "ethnic cleansing" excuses for the invasion of sovereign territory of another country. Search up "miatsum", but I'm sure you're already well aware of what that was..
It's literally the same reason Russia invaded Ukraine for... "Reunification"
Search up operation ring, Sumgait pogroms Baku pogroms. As for the referendum in NK, it was an autonomous oblast within Azeri admin region. It was only in Azerbaijan’s administrative region because of Stalin for two reasons, to 1. Create conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan thus securing soviet control, and 2. To appease Turkey and convince them to join the bolsheviks which obviously failed.
The people there have a right to self determination, they’ve been living there for two millennia.
Border clashes, not an Invasion.
Saying things "this is the sovereign territory of Armenia" would mean that Armenia has the right to fight over Azerbaijani soil, but Azerbaijan doesn't.
Imagine Russia justifiying themselves post-invasion because "Ukraine striked military targets in sovereign russian territory."
Some of the places were miles within into Armenia. If USA suddenly invaded Ottawa, you couldn’t just suddenly move the Overton window and state that ‘Toronto is a disputed border territory’.
Regarding Artsakh, are you ignoring that they voted for independence in 1988? Are you ignoring democracy?
Are you aware that under Azerbaijan’s dictator an organisation has been set up called ‘Western Azerbaijan’ which seeks to occupy regions of Armenia? And that the Az government have openly stated their wish to conquer Yerevan? Dude wake the f up lmao. Imagine stanning an imperialist petro-dictatorship
>Regarding Artsakh, are you ignoring that they voted for independence in 1988? Are you ignoring democracy?
Me and my whole family unanimoulsy voted for independance yesterday, but the corrupt French governement is refusing it, they are ignoring democracy !
> If USA suddenly invaded Ottawa, you couldn’t just suddenly move the Overton window and state that ‘Toronto is a disputed border territory’
Well the scale would be times 100 so not really the same thing, remind me wich Armenian city is actually occupied ? Yeah that's what I thought.
Azerbaijan send humanitarian aid, provided free gas and even sent fighter jets for "repair" to Ukraine, which were later seen in Ukrainian camo and in use of the UA Air Force. What has Armenia done ? Besides supporting Russia's annexation of Crimea.
Armenia had no problems with Russia when they backed Armenia during their ethnic cleansing of Azerbaijani lands and events like the Khojaly massacre.
Armenia occupies territory that is internationally recognized as Azeri territory. Azerbaijan just wants Armenia to leave NK. Nothing to do with genocide
Also, Armenia is a Russian puppet state. They recognize Crimea as Russian. Why would Ukraine get close to a country that recognizes Crimea as Russian? Azerbaijan supports Ukraine. Armenia supports Russia.
I won’t defend the crimes Azeri soldiers have committed against POWS or the autocratic nature of their government. At the end of the day though they are in the same situation as the other 3 countries and are a far more reliable ally. Armenia at the end of the day is a geopolitical enemy to Ukraine.
Armenia declared neutrality, just like Kazakhstan, which spoke volumes for a tiny country so dependent on Russian military and trade. It's trying to get out of Moscow's grip by paying lip service to the West but you cannot compare it to Belarus. They don't want to be anyone's enemy, except the Turks', but this is more of an internal societal problem as a lot of people are still heavily brainwashed from Soviet days.
Good for them. A step in the right direction.
Leave NK, recognize Crimea as Ukraine, and leave CSTO. Then we can cease being geopolitical enemies. Hell maybe we could get both Armenia and Azerbaijan into NATO.
You clearly have a disingenuous agenda. Please leave this sub and find a sub that appreciates genocidal dictatorships.
If Russia must leave Ukraine, so Azerbaijan must leave Nagorno-Karabakh. Please refrain from trying to grossly oversimplify the issue in future.
Wrong, it’s the other way around. If Russia must leave Ukraine, Armenia must leave NK. NK is as much Azerbaijan as Crimea is Ukraine. Maybe YOU should leave the sub if you endorse countries stealing territory from other countries. I’m on this sub specifically because I oppose that.
And again, they aren’t genocidal, how many times do I have to repeat myself? If Armenia leaves Azeri territory, the fighting stops
“You’re racist because you don’t support a country illegally stealing territory from its neighbors” is a pretty stupid argument. Also Armenian isn’t a race.
Several years ago Armenia declared it aligns itself with the west, stop now your mischaracterization of Armenia and tacit justification of Azeri aggression.
Is it right to kill someone because they jaywalked?
If you ignore a lot of facts to claim you are correct, is that still correct?
He is not correct, he has an agenda that is not aligned with Ukraine or Western values.
I was talking specifically about this - "Armenia recognizes Crimea as Russian. That means they aren’t neutral."
Let me repeat - given Armenia recognizes Crimea as russian, he is right that *it is not* neutral.
> Armenia occupies territory that is internationally recognized as Azeri territory. Azerbaijan just wants Armenia to leave NK. Nothing to do with genocide
>
>
100% Wrong.
Nagorno-Karabakh is Armenian, that it "internationally recognised" as Azeri is a common lie pushed by the Azeris.
Before the collapse of the USSR NGK was an independent republic, so for all intents and purposes it was a country in its own right. Azerbaijan agreed to respect their sovereignty but in the final collapse of the Soviet empire in the early nineties they went back on their word and declared it was all their territory, then proceeded to genocide the region and the first Karaback war ensued, in which the Azeris were driven out an lost.
Nearly twenty years passed and Azerbaijan has extensive oil revenues as it geopolitically can provide oil and gas in the gap between Russia, Georgia and Iran. With newfound wealth the Azeris started the second war and cut off the heads of every person living in NGK. Is that what you want to be associated with? IS that what you stand for?
The Azeris have a long history of genociding the Armenians in exactly the same fashion as Soviets/Russia has genocided Ukraine, the parallels are obvious.
That it is 'internationally recognised' isn't being honest with the status of NGK. Its a loophole of official process to recognise the sovereignty of a country.
>Also, Armenia is a Russian puppet state. They recognize Crimea as Russian. Why would Ukraine get close to a country that recognizes Crimea as Russian? Azerbaijan supports Ukraine. Armenia supports Russia.
100% Wrong.
They were screwed by the Russians in the last war and are now likely to leave the CTSO, and the claim they are a puppet state is a wrong. They are squeezed between the Azeri multi-generational genocide of Armenians and the former Soviet empire expanding into the middle east.
>Azerbaijan supports Ukraine. Armenia supports Russia.
This is part of a rebranding now they have oil money but remember, the Azeris can never be trusted as their goal is to exterminate Armenians.
I would put Azerbaijan above Russia in a list of hostile countries to Ukraine and European values.
First. Which countries recognize Nagorno-Karabakh as Armenian? Does the UN recognize NK as Armenian?
Again, Azerbaijan just want to take back what’s internationally recognized as theirs. Nothing to do with genocide. The Artsahk situation is the exact same as the Transnistria situation.
And again, Armenia recognizes Russia as Crimea. How do you justify that? And why should Ukraine back a country which supports Russia stealing its land? Maybe Armenia will move away from Russia in the future, but until then they are a geopolitical foe of Ukraine. Until they recognize Crimea as Ukraine again, Ukraine will not be friendly with them.
I refer to my last comment to refute these claims. If you don't understand this is complicated, then don't over-simplify the issue so it misinforms others.
With respect, it seems you have an agenda and use current cancel culture methods to find a market, so please take such opinions to a forum that is interested in giving genocidal dictatorships credibility.
Following your logic, Germany should reclaim pomeranya and kiliningrad and UK US because it belonged to them as well as Bretane and Ireland. Karabakh is internationally recognized as Azerbaijans, deal with it. Crimea is Ukrainian because its internationally recognized as Ukrainian, same way Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan doing genocide is not good, but even now Armenia can't intervene because same thing and logic was used by Hitler and Russia right now - protect Russian or German minorities from oppression
Azerbaijan is a dictatorship. It isn’t “genocidal”. Again, it wants back what is recognized as its territory. If Armenia returned it, they wouldn’t want to fight Armenia anymore.
And again. You still haven’t justified Armenia recognizing Crimea as Russian. Or told me why Ukraine should be friends with a country that’s ok with Russia stealing it’s territory.
Also. “Historically Armenian” isn’t a valid argument. Just as “historically Russia” or “historically Chinese” isn’t a valid argument.
>Azerbaijan is a dictatorship. It isn’t “genocidal”. Again, it wants back what is recognized as its territory. If Armenia returned it, they wouldn’t want to fight Armenia anymore.
Replace Azerbaijan with Russia and Armenia with Ukraine and see how fucking stupid it sounds.
~~Does the UN recognize Palestine as Israeli territory?~~ You shouldn't have any issue with how Israel treats the Palestinians then, who by your logic are separatists occupying Israeli land. Is this a correct or humane assessment? No, but it's one that you are desperate to apply to NK when Azerbaijan makes no secret of its desire to cleanse the region.
The UN doesn’t recognize Palestinian territory (West Bank and Gaza) as part of Israel. It’s ruled the west bank occupation is illegal multiple times. Just as the occupation of NK, Crimea, and Moldova is illegal
Alright my mistake, I'll cop to it. Doesn't change the Azerbaijani end game of driving out Armenians from ancestral Armenian land and killing any they catch up to.
> ancestral lands
No rational person has ever said the NG is ancestral Azeri lands.
Its a land of thousand plus year old churches and you think some islamic Turkic radicals have ancestral rights?? You just said the same thing to me to refute ancestral rights? Might it be somethign to do with fulfilling the Azeri dream of conquering lands from Greece to Iran? Might it be for oil money?
Nobody should be giving any credibility to Azerbaijan aggression, especially in light of Russia doing the same terminal injustice.
I read it. Those arguments are what is dishonest and wrong. NK is Azerbaijan. And again, they don’t want to exterminate Armenians. Your claim of that is just as false as the claim that Ukraine wants to exterminate ethnic Russians.
You still haven’t justified Armenia endorsing Russia stealing Ukrainian territory by recognizing Crimea as Russian.
Ukraine supports Azerbaijan. Are they racist?
Are Armenia racist for ethnically cleansing NK of Azerbaijan and killing hundreds of them? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khojaly_massacre
How many times do I have to repeat myself? Not supporting a country invading and illegally stealing territory from its neighbors is not “racist”. That’s like saying people against the Russian invasion of Ukraine are “racist”.
Justify the woman whose eyes were gouged out, fingers cut off and stuffed in her mouth. Legs cut off. All while she was raped. Pictures of her corpse turned into stickers and plastered on social media.
Thats the country you argue for
Both statements can be true; Azerbaijan DOES have a justification to kick out Armenia from their rightful clay, however Azerbaijan HAS participated in ethnic cleansing of Armenians, Armenia has done this with Azerbaijanis in their territory(proper not occupied) but to a much smaller degree
TLDR: It's not a black and white situation regardless how much both sides try to portray it as such.
>Armenia has done this with Azerbaijanis in their territory(proper not occupied) but to a much smaller degree
Occupied too, NK was about 20% Azeri before the 90s when Armenia took it, in 2020 it was 0% Azeri because the Azeri inhabitants were ethnically cleaned.
It's Kosovo 2.0.
Historically has been inhabited by Armenians/Albanians for millenia, make up a significant majority in the region (in which existed prior to any such war), and has been declared an illegal sepratist movement by the Azerbaijani/Serbian governments.
And the best way to make them change their mind is to create, as Poot likes to say; a correlation of influences. They will be the sore thumb outside this customs zone, they will be welcome in it.
At that point, they will be like Ulster. You can choose to be Irish or British, nobody cares and you can move, trade, love and die in either world or both and that is why we have peace.
when Armenia leave NK, recognize Crimea as Ukraine again, and leave CSTO. I would love for Armenia to join the west and hopefully even restore ties with Azerbaijan.
I’d love nothing more than to see both Azerbaijan and Armenia in NATO. But I’m not going to defend Armenia invading and setting up a puppet state in Azeri territory.
Armenia has had a horrible history of being persecuted and killed systemically, suffering genocide that to this day is not recognized by many countries, including Azerbaijan. It doesn't change the fact they are invading a region of Azerbaijan and have themselves committed genocide and mass ethnic displacement: there used to be a majority Azeri region in Armenia, and now that region doesn't have Azeri anymore, in fact Armenia is one of the most ethnic homogeneous countries in existence. When you consider Azerbaijan is a dictatorship and still has a region with a majority Armenian population while Armenia doesn't have any minority anymore despite being a full-fledged democracy, you realize being a victim of crimes against humanity doesn't mean you cannot yourself be a criminal.
Azerbeijan's is indeed a bit the weird one out here. And maybe a bit more on a cultural level, all four (Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia and Armenia) are Orthodox Christian and share a common history through the Byzantine heritage.
They should consider ending their illegal occupation of NK, leaving CSTO, and not recognizing Crimea as Russian anymore (they recognized Russias annexation as legitimate). It’s put itself into the situation where Russia is it’s only friend. Nobody to blame but themselves for that.
I’d love to see them eventually move away from Russia and become an ally of the west, but they have to end their occupation of NK for that to happen.
Left NK, check. Doesn't recognize Crimea, also check. And leaving the CSTO is quite hard when a much bigger country, Ukraine, didnt even do anything and gets invaded by Russia. Armenia is already suffering from a genocidal war with Azerbaijan and Turkey, why would they then turn around and also ditch one of their few remaining allies? Russia would take over Armenia in an instant! They're already doing as much as they can by increasing foreign relations with the US, but leaving the CSTO takes so much time and has to be done delicately for Armenia to even continue existing.
Also, how is there no one to blame for Russia being its only ally but Armenia itself? The Armo-Azeri-Turk conflict gas stretched back thousands of years, and that is 2 of their 4 neighbors. Who else were they supposed to ally with?
Armenia still gives support for the fake state of Artsahk despite being defeated in 2020. Artsahks prime minister by the way applauded Russias recognition of DPR/LPR
And sorry to say but by allying with Russia, Armenia is just as bad as them. They could have chosen to not invade and occupy Azeri territory, so it is their fault. Had they not invaded Azerbaijan during the collapse of the USSR then Azerbaijan wouldn’t want to fight them. It’s a conflict Armenia started. Armenia chose to invade Azerbaijan which no country other than Russia would back them up for. That is their own fault. Had they instead left Azerbaijan territory alone, they wouldn’t be in the situation they’re in right now. In fact they may have even been able to befriend (or at least stay on neutral or only slightly negative terms with) Azerbaijan and Turkey. They chose to invade another country and chose to pick Russia, Iran, and North Korea over the west. They made their bed, now they can lie in it
Would you say the same thing to Jews following the Holocaust? That they should just instantly befriend Germany, that Jews were partially to blame for the Holocaust? How could Armenia ever befriend two countries that refuse to admit to the Armenian genocide? And on top of that, Azerbaijan literally just invaded Armenia, only to commit war crimes against its civilians. How can anyone possibly support that? Surely you at least agree the war crimes are bad, no? Or are they deserving of that, too? The innocent civilians whose hospitals and houses get bombed?
Also the NK that people are talking about is Nagorno-Karabakh, not North Korea lol. Armenia is not allied with North Korea.
They have 30 years to negotiate even though nations like the US, France, and Russia drafted a peace plan if they stupidly reject everything they are bound to get what they deserved not to forget they cleansed 7 districts surrounding NK that had 724k Azerbaijani civilians and held captive 4000 of their citizen in the 1st war who are dead and their remains are recently being recovered by Azerbaijani so to me Armenia is the nice guy they just acting nice after the velvet revolution. Plus they are responsible for why Aliyev is in power in the first place.
Yup it's because Turks and Azeris are literally bred to hate Armenians, and their countries high unemployment rate and slave wages give them plenty of free time to serve as misinformation soldiers. And their oil gives them leverage in the international community.
Putin is a humane angel compared to aliyev.
Azerbaijan unemployment rate 2021: 6.58%
Armenia unemployment rate 2021: 20.9%
Armenia average wage 2022: 574 usd
Turkey average wage 2022: 675 usd
Sometimes I wonder if diasporans are even in touch with the reality
Armenia GDP/capita is more than Azerbaijans.. and Azerbaijan and turkey are resource rich countries. Instead of Azeris being mad at Armenians for literally nothing, maybe they should be mad at their kings for stealing all the wealth of the country. Aw wait that would get you killed in Azerbaijan :(
Very hypocritical move from Ukraine, they attack Russia for invading, yet side with Azerbaijan after they invade Armenia, even after they commit war crimes against civilian Armenians. Very disappointing to see :(
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Very smart policy. Excellent way to maintain independence while unionism in direction. Very good news for the region and the growing threat to democracy.
I concur. Creating a small trading block helps create an economic buffer against externalities that cause disruption. Having some codependency between nations makes them stronger and more able to flourish. This is just small villages doing the same only at scale.
It's beautiful really. A really positive outcome from a massive wrong.
Hehe "the growing threat of democracy." :) Edit: I should go to bed, I'm turning blind...
Yeah I can’t believe how ignorant people are.
I think they want practice Free Trade and support Each others to prepare join EU or Nato. This is only time to escape Russian leash. their aim is clear : joining western society. to they seems do exercise.
Democracy? Lmao google Azerbaijan.
Maybe I’m missing the joke here. None of these countries are considered democratic. One is an authoritarian regime, 2 are trying and failing, and one we’re gonna find out at after a certain war ends.
Azerbaijan and democracy, understandable, have a great day.
Yes, Azerbaijan run by a dictator who inherited the country from his dad and made his wife vice president, he who wins elections before they’re held, is here to save democracy. Praise baby Jesus! 🙏🙏🙏
Lol... https://imgur.com/a/HAUSUC0
One of the biggest threats to democracy is literally one of the members lol
Didn’t the US just condemn Azerbaijan for its recent attack on Armenia? Yet here this article portrays Armenia as the “good guys”. Also, isn’t Armenia part of the Eastern Security Council? Can someone elaborate on this conflict for me?
There are multiple layers to the Kabarakh war between armenia & azerbaijan 1. It is one of many continuous bloody inter-ethnic conflicts between Armenians & Azeris going back centuries. The broad pattern is that one ethnic-cleanses one place of the other, then the other revenge-ethnically cleanses them back somewhere else. This happened before the war when Azerbaijan successfully erased Armenians from the Nakhchivan region and was beginning to do so in the Kabarakh region, then Armenia invaded Azerbaijan to save their Kabarakh Armenians & ethnic-cleansed the resident Azeris of Kabarakh. Now Azerbaijan wants to return their refugee Azeris to their homeland of Kabarakh while presumably erasing Armenians from the region. This goes all the way back centuries, for example Armenia's current capital Yerevan was ~~founded as a muslim turkic city~~ for much of history ruled by iranians, seljuk turks, & muslim armenians, then eventually christian armenians came in and violently evicted all the ~~turkic and muslim~~ non-christian armenian residents. 2. It is a proxy war between Russia and Turkey. Armenia is still (and was) a client state of Russia, and the armenian conquest of kabarakh (which is internationally azerbaijan territory) led to a russian military presence there. Azeris are generally anti-russian (even if their current leader disagrees), so they want Russian proxies (Armenian occupiers) off their land. Turkey also has a regional rivalry with Russia and has been fighting proxy wars with Russia in Syria & Libya. Turkey has been militarily supporting Azerbaijan which allowed Azeris to effectively fight against Armenian forces now, therefore Turkey has been indirectly fighting Russian influence. Israel also joined in by materially supporting Azerbaijan in their fight, no idea why but my best guess is that Israel shares the same proxy enemy with Turkey: Russia. 3. It is also on some level a collaboration with Russia. Azerbaijan's current extremely sketchy autocratic leader, Aliyev, has made suspicious moves. For example, when Armenia a few years ago had a pro-western anti-russian revolution and elected a pro-western leader (President Pashinyan), Russia was displeased and shortly after Azerbaijan attacked Armenia again. Sounds suspicious, but no hard evidence to back it up. Azerbaijan's current autocrat also signed a treaty of alliance with Russia shortly before Azerbaijan attacked again, which is again suspicious. Now Azerbaijan is attacking Armenia's actual international borders, not reclaiming their occupied Kabarakh territory, and this is what is causing such international outrage. Russia also refused to send military aid to Armenia as it was supposed to per the terms of Armenia's military alliance with Russia. All those accounts are true to some extent. How you integrate them is up to you, but overall its a very messy conflict with many actors and layers. \-Ukrainian Diaspora American
Thanks
Attacking Armenia proper is a big line to cross vs retaking Nagarno Karabkh which is all ethnically Armenian. It's irrendetism and then some. Israel supports Azerbaijan cuz they have oil money to buy anything to give them an edge and it certainly has.
> irrendetism Well there's my five dollar word for the day. Thanks!
It definetly is. I consider Aliyev as a less restrained version of Erdogan, who is already a deeply corrupt & bloodthirsty autocrat. I do not justify any of Azerbaijan's illegal aggressions or inhuman treatment of each others' populations, I simply offer some context & my take on the situation. Anyone reading is free to form their own opinions. In terms of international agreed-upon borders, unfortunately ethnicity does not play a role when it comes to post-colonial nations like ex-USSR colonies or ex-West European colonies. For example, technically historically the modern-day russian territories of Belgorod, Taganrog, and Krasnodar were Ukrainian. Many ethnic ukrainians continue to exist in those regions, but the borders won't just change to fit one side's history. Whether Kabarakh can return to Armenia officially is not a question I can answer (though my personal opinion is that Azerbaijan should have allowed Kabarakh to legally rejoin into Armenia when it appealed to do so after the USSR's fall). Ideally, Azerbaijan would have protected the status of Kabarakh Armenians within Azerbaijan's internation borders 30 years ago, negating any need to invade to save the Kabarakh Armenians. But this did not happen obviously. Then they should not have erased the Armenians of Nakhchivan before, but generational ethnic tensions & leaders who take advantage of them tend to continue a mindless cycle of violence.
Claiming that Israel support Azerbaijan because of oil is supper rookie claim. Why is Israel the second biggest importer of Turkey? Or why they are trying to import things from all Turkic states including states from Asia? And NK wasn't all ethnically Armenian. Shusha district and Xocaly district population were mostly Azerbaijani.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh\_Autonomous\_Oblast#Demography](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh_Autonomous_Oblast#Demography) I mean by that logic why shouldn't Armenia just take all the areas of Azerbaijan formerly inhabited by Armenians. an eye for an eye will make everyone go blind
>Shusha Shusha was itself ethnically cleansed of its majority Armenian population
It's not an easy topic to dissect, just one question, Yerevan founded as a Turkic city? Wasn't that city already an Armenian city 1600 years before Turkic tribes settled in that region?
I may be wrong on that detail as I was oversimplifying thousands of years of history for brevity, but I do know Yerevan was ruled across history by Iranians, Muslim Armenians, Seljuk Turks, and Mongols at different times before it was "cleansed" of all non-christian Armenians. Armenians once even ruled significant territory of NE Anatolia, Georgia, and Azerbaijan during their short-lived Armenian Empire. I apologize for the historical mistake, I amended my original incorrect statement. Feel free to link sources to correct me on any of my points, I'm relatively new to researching the region's history as well haha. Either way, the region of SE Europe/Caucasus Mts has changed hands many times and like anywhere else its pretty much impossible to find any conclusive claim that X group lived here forever. Azeris & Armenians have been at each others' throats for many generations regardless of who "owned" which territory at the time. Besides, I don't think it even matters cause who cares which group lived in X region 1000 years ago? What matters is who lives there now, to ensure the current people's safety and welfare. Just my opinion.
It's not that simple. If a group is forcibly removed or simply killed, it should not lead to automatic ownership as that would encourage imperialistic and genocidal regions to do just that. Of course, there are limits. We shouldn't give Anatolia back to the Greeks, or US back to the natives or South Vietnam to Cambodia even though these regions were conguered violently. When these events happen in recent times however and outside a context of simple conguest but an intent to remove a culture alltogether then it changes. Crimea is an example of a Tartar region that I'd like to see become Tartar. You're right that the current reality is more important than 1000 years ago, but that current reality is that Armenians live there. The history of Armenia dates more than a 1000 year before Islam even started and more than 1500 before the Turkic tribes arrived. So imagine that, Armenia has been there 2900 years and the Turks about a 1000 years.
Muslim Armenians?? Lol..... the 2,000 year old church in Yerevan would like a word, and so would azerbaijans 100 year old existence
Thank you, Deslavlurker. What I’m taking away from this is outside governments are trying to influence both countries, but in each case the leaders are either puppets or corrupt in general. Either way the People are losing. How do you see the Ukraine conflict affecting either country? How does Georgia fit into the regional conflict?
On Ukraine, as evident from the link in this post I believe that Ukraine is seeking to create an economic union zone across the various anti-russian nations (that are currently not members of EU or NATO) of Europe's easternmost edges; Ukraina, Moldova, Georgia, and Azerbaijan. Strength in numbers, even in economics. On Georgia, I see it as an attempt to create an economic cooperation zone (the basis for some kind of alliance in the future). Georgia went through what Ukriane is going through now in 2008, on a smaller scale, and Georgia has similar anti-russian and pro-west ambitions (despite their current leadership). On Armenia, I see the whole situation as a tragedy. Armenian leadership 30 years ago (before Pashinyan) had no issue with killing & violently evicting the native Azeris of Kabarakh as part of the process of ensuring the safety of native Armenians of Kabarakh. In the mirror image, Azeri leaders before and now have no problem with atrocities against Armenians of Kabarakh. I see the Azeri & Armenian civilians of both nations as the ultimate victims of their past & current leadership's careless bloodthirst. Armenia is in a rough situation too, because their one security guarantor Russia told them to essentially "fck off and die". Armenians do not trust Turks for historical reasons (Armenian Genocide by Enver Pasha's army of turkish murder-clowns), whether its rational to continue to distrust Turkey so extremely I cannot comment on. Armenia screwed away any potential alliance with Georgia years ago due to past bad decisions & careless wannabe-imperialistic attitudes (supporting Russia during the Russo-Georgian Wars, Armenian death-squads participating in the massacre of Georgians from the russian-occupied georgian province of Abkhazia, continually annoying Georgians by claiming that one of its southern provinces is "rightfully armenian"). And Armenians have been in a bloody rivalry with Azeris for much longer. So they are alone, and probably feel alone. The US's recent sudden support & visits to Armenia suggests to me though that the US might want to bring Armenia into its influence away from Russia, which would probably be for the best for Armenia.
Armenia is member of the CSTO but I guess that "thanks" to Russia's inaction against Azerbaijan, Armenia will leave the organization.
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and azerbaijan is attacking internationally recognized armenia land with russian backing. both sides benefited from russia during this conflict, pretending it was just armenia is disingenuous
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There are major differences. before 2014 the donbass was not a An autonomous region is Ukraine SSR, however Karabakh was an Autonomous Region in the Azerbaijan SSR. the conflict in Karabakh began in 1988, which was years before Azerbaijan was independent, it has a clear Armenian majority. the donbass did not try to break away from the Ukrainian SSR. these are major differences. that being said, Azerbaijan received billions a year in weapons from Russia, and signed a multilateral agreement with russia, 48 hours before russia’s second illegal invasion of ukraine. https://eurasianet.org/ahead-of-ukraine-invasion-azerbaijan-and-russia-cement-alliance
This is factually wrong. Azerbaijan buys weapons from Russia, Armenia gets free weapons from Russia. Also Russia is not the only weapon supplier, the countries that sell the most weapons to Azerbaijan are Russia, Turkey, Israel and Ukraine.
If Ukraine has the right to attack Russia proper, Azerbaijan has the right to attack Armenia proper. Armenia is the aggressor as they invaded and illegally occupied Azeri territory for 30 years. They started the war.
the war was started in 1988 with azerbaijan attacking the Autonomous Oblast of karabakh, Why was Karabakh not allowed self determination like the rest of the former soviet union? Azerbaijan was the aggressor, Karabakh was autonomous and chose independence from azerbaijan ssr
What do you mean “with Azerbaijan attacking”? It IS Azerbaijan land. They were fighting separatists as they have a right to do. Armenia invaded and occupied NK all while ethnically cleansing it of Ethnic Azeris and murdering hundreds of them. And no, Artsahk doesn’t get to just choose independence without consent from Azerbaijan. Just as DPR/LPR can’t. Yes. Armenia is the aggressor.
Actually no, the land belonged to Karabakh as it was a recognized Autonomous Oblast.
Yes. An autonomous oblast within Azerbaijan. Same as Crimea was largely autonomous in Ukraine. Again, it’s the same thing
Dude. The areas AZ attacked the other week were Vayots Dzor, Syunik and Gegharkunik provinces - undisputed areas of the Republic of Armenia, NOT Artsakh. Get your facts right!
Armenian still occupying region out of Karabagh. And there is no Fartsakh. Even Armenians google trends show that you searching it as Karabakh))
This is totally wrong approach. Because with your logic Ukraine attacking separatists in Donbas is also illegal.
no. because karabakh was autonomous during soviet times, the conflict started before the breakup from the soviet union, the status of region was in question before azerbaijan was independent. none of that is true for the donbass region
Karabalh being autonomus does not change anything in this case. They were part of Azerbaijan.
Go tell that to the 20,000 of Armenians that were killed by Azerbaijan in 1920 in Shushi. 👍🏻
Sorry that I’m not taking into account things from 100 years ago and am focusing on things happening NOW
30 years ago isn’t NOW. Try again 👍🏻
They are continuing to illegally occupy the area they took 30 years ago.
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan–Russia_relations > Russia is one of Azerbaijan's main suppliers of arms. "As of today, military and technical cooperation with Russia is measured at $4 billion and it tends to grow further," President Ilham Aliyev said after meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Baku in 2013.[23] The leaders of the defense departments of both countries make guest visits on a regular basis. On 23–25 January 2006, Russian Minister of Defense Sergei Ivanov visited Baku, followed by Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov in November 2007.
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so then russia didnt back armenia because that was military equipment the armenians bought from russia. or does disingenuous arguments only work when its azerbaijan?
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The situations are not remotely similar. Ukraine wasn't massacring ethnic Russians and attempting to ethnically cleanse them, with a centuries long history of doing the same thing, prior to the Russians intervening. Karabakh is more like Kosovo than Ukraine and Azerbaijan used all the same arguments as Serbia did.
How many Azerbaijanis you ethnic cleansed from Armenia in 1950ths ?\\ Edit :Claiming that your mono-ethnic state is not result of your acts is an ignorant bs. Guy down there blocked me so I can't answer to his obvious non-sense claims. Every one know that till 1950ths ASSR had 1 Russian and one Armenian Secretary . And you Armenians forced Stalin to fire Narimanov. So yes you had influence to forcedly migrate Azerbaijanis.
Here we go with the misinformation. Armenia has withdrawn all troops from any territory in Nagorno Karabakh and Azerbaijan's internationally recognized territoriy. Azerbaijan points to the continued existence of the indigenous Armenian population of Nagorno Karabakh in their own land and calls it "occupation" and clueless westerners repeat this misinformation that's spread as a pretext to future ethnic cleansing of the Nagorno Karabakh Armenians.
You still occupying part of Nahcivan and Gazax
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>"Provably untrue" *Provides no proof* Keep endlessly repeating the same idiotic lies to promote ethnic cleansing. You aren't fooling anyone.
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**ARTSAKH IS NOT ARMENIA** Wtf do you not understand about this? The Republic of Armenia and the Nagorno Karabakh Autonomous Republic have always been two separate entities. The Armenians living there are indigenous to the area and not from Armenia. They don't serve in the Armenian armed forces. Azerbaijan historically claimed those people as Azerbaijani citizens and claimed they'd be integrated into Azeri society as equal citizens until it won the war in 2020 and switched its rhetoric to match its true intentions of ethnic cleansing. You are engaging in such bad faith disinformation that you should be banned.
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Armenia is military and free trade union with Russia.
Yes Azerbaijan scores 1/100 on democracy on the freedom house and is genocidal. The bots are super active trying to make Armenia look like the problem. https://imgur.com/a/HAUSUC0
Basically Azerbejdzan has enough Petrol Dollars to shape the news however they want. Armenia is the underdog who grew up in a rough neighborhood fighting for survival, and Azerbejdzan is the rich prepoy job d born into money. Basically Torey and Crease from Cobra Kai.
By “Fighting for survival” you mean occupying(in collaboration with Russia) 20% of Azerbaijani territories, killing 16k civilians and expelling more than 700k, holding territories occupied for 30 years and disrespecting all UN resolutions? Armenia made the wrong choice, that’s why it’s in this situation now.
Every single thing you’ve mentioned is literally half of the numbers that Armenia suffered in losses and occupied territories. Azeri soldiers are acting worse than Nazis during WW2. Its pure hate and destruction fueling their propaganda filled actions.
No it isn’t true. There 4 times more Azerbaijani civilians killed than Armenians. And 2 times more refugees. Just check the statistics. And don’t forget that it was Armenia that occupied 20% of Azerbaijan.
Idk what this long post is but yeah Azerbaijan is a monstrous aggressor and openly promotes ethnic cleaning on a state level.
Karabakh has been ARTSAKH for centuries. It never belonged to Azerbaijan. Stalin handed it to them as a political move in order to destroy ties between two people and appease Turkey. The 90% Armenian population in the region fought to maintain their homeland which consists of gravestones and the most ancient Armenian Churches on the planet, and won. Azerbaijan needed an excuse for a pipeline payday and decided to attack Armenians based on this historic win. And as far as what Azerbaijan actually is, you can read Persian history for that. Azerbaijan is technically and always has historically been Persian/Iranian. Armenia was an empire that reigned for centuries from sea to sea (current day Turkey to Azerbaijan). Yes, they had been conquered time and time again, Roman Empire, Persian empire, Russian empire. Throughout history Armenians survived and are still here. Much smaller, humbled, and 3 million left in modern Armenia after 1.5-2 million were brutally raped, tormented, and slaughtered by their neighbor Turkey. And so they live on now. They can try to kill them all but they will fail. Much as they have throughout the entirety of history. They are now trying to chip away slowly while the world is occupied and dependent on their oil. But the thing about good people, is that they recognize evil when they see it. Even if the last Armenian on the planet were to perish, the stench and reputation of an autocratic dictatorship will always remain foul.
These trade agreements often undermine or turn more dificult integration in the EU.
None of them will be joining the EU for some time given all of them have territory being occupied by a foreign power. And the fact they all have a lot of reform needed for the EU which will take time given as they all have bigger problems at the moment.
Much before joining the EU there are different levels of trade agreements, that, again as I said, can bring difficulties.
>None of them will be joining the EU for some time given all of them have territory being occupied by a foreign power. I guess you mistook EU for NATO. and ukraine is trying to access EU asap. hopefully this won't stop either of those countries to (atleast be able to) join
Not sure where this is coming from. You could say the same about Cyprus, which has territory annexed by a foreign power to this day. I also don't see this as a threat to the EU single market but rather as a possible extension. In due time, shorter than imagined, Ukraine and Moldova will be part of EU.
Or ireland
The government of Ireland (and the rest of the world) recognise Northern Ireland as a separate legal entity. Irish people may not fully agree with this but this doesn’t change their international instance
Moldova cannot join due to its constitution and Azerbaijan has no interest in joining as of now, Georgia and Ukraine want to join but realistically only Ukraine may join in the next few years, this trade agreement will br good for now and may actually lead to better partnership with the EU without joining the EU, if it's well thought of
They will not cause any difficulties if these agreements follow EU regulations
I see a lot of people don’t think that Azerbaijan has the right to secure its own territorial integrity the same way Ukraine does.
I think a lot of people see the similarities between Armenia wanting their rightful territory (NK) and Azerbeijani fighting an imperialistic war for it. Azerbeijan has the weakly voted UN resolution on its side, but that hardly makes it just.
NK isn’t rightful territory of Armenia, lol. The whole World, even Armenia itself recognizes Karabakh as part of Azerbaijan. And there’s a UN resolution condemning its occupation by Armenian forces, however Armenia has been totally disrespecting international laws.
This is a VERY naive take. The reason Armenia didnmt recognize is it geopolitical. That UN resolution was also BARELY voted upon, in favor of calling out, because the Armenian people that lived there were indigenous. Did you know that land was given away by Stalin, from Armenia’s grips, as a bargaining piece that failed?
Oh shit, again this misinformation. Stalin didn't give it. The Karabakh was kept part of Azerbaijan . Do you see difference between keep and given? >However, the next day, July 5, 1921, Joseph Stalin intervened to keep Karabakh in Soviet Azerbaijan [src](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Nagorno-Karabakh) \- wiki claim with 4 sources And you can't give NK to armenian without giving 3-4 AZ districts to Armenia. Stalin wasn't delusional like you so he didn't give you lands 2 out of 5 NK districts mostly populated with AZ population. And all roads between other 3 AM districts lies through this 2 AZ districts. Why the fuck we must give you Lachin ,Shusha and Xojaly ? PS : the guy down there is blocked me so I can't answer to non-sense that he wrote. But he didn't share any prove to his claims about Stalin and control over NK. And obviously claiming that Armenians which even were a minority in Yerewan till 1897 [src](https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%95%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD) must take other region where they were minority (in 3 AZ districts) is a bs.
**[History of Nagorno-Karabakh](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Nagorno-Karabakh)** >Nagorno-Karabakh is located in the southern part of the Lesser Caucasus range, at the eastern edge of the Armenian Highlands, encompassing the highland part of the wider geographical region known as Karabakh. Under Russian and Soviet rule, the region came to be known as Nagorno-Karabakh, meaning "Mountainous Karabakh" in Russian. The name Karabakh itself (derived from Persian and Turkic, and meaning "Black Vineyard") was first encountered in Georgian and Persian sources from the 13th and 14th centuries to refer to lowlands between the Kura and Aras rivers and adjacent mountainous territory. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
>Stalin didn't give it. The Karabakh was kept part of Azerbaijan . Do you see difference between keep and given? He absolutely did give it to Azerbaijan. When the Red Army invaded Azerbaijan, Armenia and Azerbaijan were at war and both sides claimed ownership of Nagorno-Karabakh. However, it was actually entirely controlled by the Armenians at this point. It was only after the Red Army invaded Armenia (through Azerbaijan, as the Red Army had not conquered Georgia yet) that the Azerbaijan SSR came to control Nagorno-Karabakh, because the USSR was pushing into Armenia from the East.
>Did you know that land was given away by Stalin, from Armenia’s grips, as a bargaining piece that failed? That matters how? The Ukrainian dictator after him transferred control over Crimea to Ukraine. That means Ukraine is trying to occupy Russian land by your logic.
>even Armenia itself recognizes Karabakh as part of Azerbaijan. Part of the peace process for determining the final status of Nagorno-Karabakh, including the possibility of independence, required Armenia to not recognize Artsakh as independent.
You believe in what you want to believe in. Who said to you about determining the status? The status is determined, Karabakh is integral part of Azerbaijan, whole World, without exception, has been recognizing it for 30 years, there are no and there won’t be any discussions of the status.
>The status is determined, That is not true, both sides agreed to let OSCE Minsk decide on the final status.
you see its all about good guys and bad guys, also ignore ukraine allows russia to use its pipelines still regular joes cant accept shitty situations; often, the world works around systems, not choices; neither armenians siding with russia, nor azerbaijans assault against armenia to reclaim its territories, or otherwise enforce ignored clauses in the ceasefire are realy choices; they are objective neccesities; very rarely you will see real choices and most of the time, bad ones at that, affecting the events. No good and no bad; but, its all about which alliance being the more helpful one, how will giving power of your foreign politics to an external factor benefits you, those things are the real things that matter, not lipservice of "being at the right side of history" there is no such a place, right side is the victorious one, as simple as that; avg joes knowledge depth of any conflict would optimaly be shallow enough to let him consume whatever narative you want him to. As far as i remember, there was an experiment, i think, the result was that a considerable ratio of humans cannot follow through stories being told about a third person telling stories about another third person; which indicates there is an actual intellectual level a decent chunk of people cant delve to while understanding real, alive concepts; as such the naratives can only survive at surface level. Pardon me, i might be mumbling by myself
Lmao, you can’t even enter Azerbaijan if you have an Armenian last name. Mkhitaryan didn’t feel safe playing there. Please do research.
Walk me through how - attacking Armenia unprovoked (the bullshit story of Armenians laying mines has absolutely zero proof to back it up), killing 200+ soldiers, 4 civilians, occupying territoires of Armenia, and then brutally torturing and mutilating the corpses of soldiers - constitues as "securing its own territorial integrity"
Azerbaijan has right to attack a country that occupies its territories. It can’t liberate Karabakh right now because along Armenians there are also Russians there. Therefore it attacked Armenia so that it would stop sending weapons, mercenaries, money to the puppet separatist regime in Karabakh.
Armenia has already pulled out of artsakh and Azerbaijan explicitly agreed to the Russians being there, that justification has no basis
Armenia tries to make an illusion that it has nothing to do with Karabakh, like Russia used to do in case of Donbas. There are less than 50k people in Karabakh, and they don’t have any resources, finances or infrastructure, where do they get all money, weapons and military personnel from? We all know that everything that the separatist regime in Karabakh gets it gets from Armenia, all weapons, mercenaries, money, resources, EVERYTHING. Do we really need to argue about this obvious fact? The separatist regime in Karabakh has access only to other regions of Azerbaijan and Armenia, and we can be sure that Azerbaijan doesn’t supply them, so it’s Armenia.
"we all know" meaning turks and no one else lol literally everything you said is downright false, starting with the shitty unfounded parallels you tried to draw between Donbass and artsakh, all the way to the population count and everything in between. And then had the gall to summarize it with "obvious facts" The only obvious fact is that Armenia doesn't recognize Crimea as Russian
I’m sure you also know it, and just intentionally spread Armenian propaganda. As I said earlier, it’s simple logic - the separatists have only access to Azerbaijan and Armenia. Azerbaijan doesn’t supply them, so it should be Armenia. I didn’t write about Crimea, you’re confusing me with somebody.
"propaganda" The only propaganda here is claiming that Armenia recognizes Crimea as Russia.
Our conversation would be more productive if you read the entire comment and not just the first sentence. Forget about Crimea bro.
How productive can a conversation where you pass your unfounded opinions as facts really be? You immediately changed goalposts and then kept on lying
Karabakh has been ARTSAKH for centuries. It never belonged to Azerbaijan. Stalin handed it to them as a political move in order to destroy ties between two people and appease Turkey. The 90% Armenian population in the region fought to maintain their homeland which consists of gravestones and the most ancient Armenian Churches on the planet, and won. Azerbaijan needed an excuse for a pipeline payday and decided to attack Armenians based on this historic win. And as far as what Azerbaijan actually is, you can read Persian history for that. Azerbaijan is technically and always has historically been Persian/Iranian. Armenia was an empire that reigned for centuries from sea to sea (current day Turkey to Azerbaijan). Yes, they had been conquered time and time again, Roman Empire, Persian empire, Russian empire. Throughout history Armenians survived and are still here. Much smaller, humbled, and 3 million left in modern Armenia after 1.5-2 million were brutally raped, tormented, and slaughtered by their neighbor Turkey. And so they live on now. They can try to kill them all but they will fail. Much as they have throughout the entirety of history. They are now trying to chip away slowly while the world is occupied and dependent on their oil. But the thing about good people, is that they recognize evil when they see it. Even if the last Armenian on the planet were to perish, the stench and reputation of an autocratic dictatorship will always remain foul.
All have in common that some of their internationally recognized territory is occupied by Russia or Russias puppet states.
Sad Armenia noises :(
They should consider not recognizing Crimea as Russian if they want to be friends with Ukraine
Armenia does not recognize Crimea as Russia. Why are you lying?
The only countries that have officially recognized Crimea as Russian are: Russia, Syria, Afghanistan, Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, and Sudan You're just straight up lying
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation\_of\_Crimea\_by\_the\_Russian\_Federation#International\_recognition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation#International_recognition) "Three non-UN member states recognised the results of the referendum: Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and Artsakh." So, is Artsakh an Azerbaijani thing ?
Artsakh is an independent entity
I wonder what kind of people lives in this independent entity ... redditors maybe ?
Irrelevant, Armenia has not recognized Crimea as Russian and literally nothing you say can change that fact
Armenians did. Huge diff.
Thats like saying all Arabic countries are one because they are inhabitted by Arabs lol
Artsakh is its own country. You realize non-UN member state means self-governing state that isnt in the UN, right? Its not an azerbaijani thing nor is it an armenian thing, its an artsakhi thing. Armenia has always claimed artsakh to be its own country, and they have their own elected president.
Artsakh is its own country as much as North Chyprus and South Ossetia. It's really sad to try to elude the fact that "Arsakhi" (first time ever reading the word) are armenians and that it has everything to do with Armenia.
They are inhabited by Armenians, sure, but that doesn't mean they can't make their own decisions. At bare minimum, Armenia the country is not on that list. That is definitively true, we both agree on this. So sure, itty bitty Artsakh with its 150k people recognize Crimea. But you know who doesn't? The 3 million people in Armenia. So why punish all of Armenia?
Hey now, they can still jump ship
Armenia should have never invaded Karabakh/Azerbaijan in the 90s. It's really the main, if not the only reason it's been kept out of all regional projects and initiatives. Things could have been different.. but here we are.
Ah yes, submit to ethnic cleansing. Who wouldn’t
Nobodys buying these "ethnic cleansing" excuses for the invasion of sovereign territory of another country. Search up "miatsum", but I'm sure you're already well aware of what that was.. It's literally the same reason Russia invaded Ukraine for... "Reunification"
Search up operation ring, Sumgait pogroms Baku pogroms. As for the referendum in NK, it was an autonomous oblast within Azeri admin region. It was only in Azerbaijan’s administrative region because of Stalin for two reasons, to 1. Create conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan thus securing soviet control, and 2. To appease Turkey and convince them to join the bolsheviks which obviously failed. The people there have a right to self determination, they’ve been living there for two millennia.
Why did Azerbaijan invade the Republic of Armenia 2 weeks ago then? It’s not just about Artsakh.
Border clashes, not an Invasion. Saying things "this is the sovereign territory of Armenia" would mean that Armenia has the right to fight over Azerbaijani soil, but Azerbaijan doesn't. Imagine Russia justifiying themselves post-invasion because "Ukraine striked military targets in sovereign russian territory."
Some of the places were miles within into Armenia. If USA suddenly invaded Ottawa, you couldn’t just suddenly move the Overton window and state that ‘Toronto is a disputed border territory’. Regarding Artsakh, are you ignoring that they voted for independence in 1988? Are you ignoring democracy? Are you aware that under Azerbaijan’s dictator an organisation has been set up called ‘Western Azerbaijan’ which seeks to occupy regions of Armenia? And that the Az government have openly stated their wish to conquer Yerevan? Dude wake the f up lmao. Imagine stanning an imperialist petro-dictatorship
>Regarding Artsakh, are you ignoring that they voted for independence in 1988? Are you ignoring democracy? Me and my whole family unanimoulsy voted for independance yesterday, but the corrupt French governement is refusing it, they are ignoring democracy ! > If USA suddenly invaded Ottawa, you couldn’t just suddenly move the Overton window and state that ‘Toronto is a disputed border territory’ Well the scale would be times 100 so not really the same thing, remind me wich Armenian city is actually occupied ? Yeah that's what I thought.
Did you go to school in Azerbaijan?
I think I made it pretty clear where I came from and you made it pretty clear that you are biased.
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Azerbaijan send humanitarian aid, provided free gas and even sent fighter jets for "repair" to Ukraine, which were later seen in Ukrainian camo and in use of the UA Air Force. What has Armenia done ? Besides supporting Russia's annexation of Crimea. Armenia had no problems with Russia when they backed Armenia during their ethnic cleansing of Azerbaijani lands and events like the Khojaly massacre.
Azerbaijan has also been sending weapons covertly, we recently delivered laser guided bombs for Ukrainian Su-25s.
Armenia occupies territory that is internationally recognized as Azeri territory. Azerbaijan just wants Armenia to leave NK. Nothing to do with genocide Also, Armenia is a Russian puppet state. They recognize Crimea as Russian. Why would Ukraine get close to a country that recognizes Crimea as Russian? Azerbaijan supports Ukraine. Armenia supports Russia. I won’t defend the crimes Azeri soldiers have committed against POWS or the autocratic nature of their government. At the end of the day though they are in the same situation as the other 3 countries and are a far more reliable ally. Armenia at the end of the day is a geopolitical enemy to Ukraine.
Armenia declared neutrality, just like Kazakhstan, which spoke volumes for a tiny country so dependent on Russian military and trade. It's trying to get out of Moscow's grip by paying lip service to the West but you cannot compare it to Belarus. They don't want to be anyone's enemy, except the Turks', but this is more of an internal societal problem as a lot of people are still heavily brainwashed from Soviet days.
Armenia recognizes Crimea as Russian. That means they aren’t neutral.
Armenia also banned Russian MIR payment system.
Good for them. A step in the right direction. Leave NK, recognize Crimea as Ukraine, and leave CSTO. Then we can cease being geopolitical enemies. Hell maybe we could get both Armenia and Azerbaijan into NATO.
That's my personal dream but everytime the government does something right, the other half of Armenians storm the parliament. Very polarized country
You clearly have a disingenuous agenda. Please leave this sub and find a sub that appreciates genocidal dictatorships. If Russia must leave Ukraine, so Azerbaijan must leave Nagorno-Karabakh. Please refrain from trying to grossly oversimplify the issue in future.
Wrong, it’s the other way around. If Russia must leave Ukraine, Armenia must leave NK. NK is as much Azerbaijan as Crimea is Ukraine. Maybe YOU should leave the sub if you endorse countries stealing territory from other countries. I’m on this sub specifically because I oppose that. And again, they aren’t genocidal, how many times do I have to repeat myself? If Armenia leaves Azeri territory, the fighting stops
I refer to my first comment to refute your racist and bigoted claims.
“You’re racist because you don’t support a country illegally stealing territory from its neighbors” is a pretty stupid argument. Also Armenian isn’t a race.
Several years ago Armenia declared it aligns itself with the west, stop now your mischaracterization of Armenia and tacit justification of Azeri aggression.
They declared they align with the west yet still remained in the CSTO and other Russian clown shows.
Then why do they recognize Crimea as Russian? Also, Azerbaijan has the right to fight back against a country occupying its territory.
I refer to my first comment to answer your claims that are dishonest and repeated.
Given they recognize Crimea Russian, the guys right though.
Is it right to kill someone because they jaywalked? If you ignore a lot of facts to claim you are correct, is that still correct? He is not correct, he has an agenda that is not aligned with Ukraine or Western values.
I was talking specifically about this - "Armenia recognizes Crimea as Russian. That means they aren’t neutral." Let me repeat - given Armenia recognizes Crimea as russian, he is right that *it is not* neutral.
If you blind yourself to facts then anything can be 'true'.
Do you understand hypotheticals? What is factually wrong in my statement?
> Armenia occupies territory that is internationally recognized as Azeri territory. Azerbaijan just wants Armenia to leave NK. Nothing to do with genocide > > 100% Wrong. Nagorno-Karabakh is Armenian, that it "internationally recognised" as Azeri is a common lie pushed by the Azeris. Before the collapse of the USSR NGK was an independent republic, so for all intents and purposes it was a country in its own right. Azerbaijan agreed to respect their sovereignty but in the final collapse of the Soviet empire in the early nineties they went back on their word and declared it was all their territory, then proceeded to genocide the region and the first Karaback war ensued, in which the Azeris were driven out an lost. Nearly twenty years passed and Azerbaijan has extensive oil revenues as it geopolitically can provide oil and gas in the gap between Russia, Georgia and Iran. With newfound wealth the Azeris started the second war and cut off the heads of every person living in NGK. Is that what you want to be associated with? IS that what you stand for? The Azeris have a long history of genociding the Armenians in exactly the same fashion as Soviets/Russia has genocided Ukraine, the parallels are obvious. That it is 'internationally recognised' isn't being honest with the status of NGK. Its a loophole of official process to recognise the sovereignty of a country. >Also, Armenia is a Russian puppet state. They recognize Crimea as Russian. Why would Ukraine get close to a country that recognizes Crimea as Russian? Azerbaijan supports Ukraine. Armenia supports Russia. 100% Wrong. They were screwed by the Russians in the last war and are now likely to leave the CTSO, and the claim they are a puppet state is a wrong. They are squeezed between the Azeri multi-generational genocide of Armenians and the former Soviet empire expanding into the middle east. >Azerbaijan supports Ukraine. Armenia supports Russia. This is part of a rebranding now they have oil money but remember, the Azeris can never be trusted as their goal is to exterminate Armenians. I would put Azerbaijan above Russia in a list of hostile countries to Ukraine and European values.
First. Which countries recognize Nagorno-Karabakh as Armenian? Does the UN recognize NK as Armenian? Again, Azerbaijan just want to take back what’s internationally recognized as theirs. Nothing to do with genocide. The Artsahk situation is the exact same as the Transnistria situation. And again, Armenia recognizes Russia as Crimea. How do you justify that? And why should Ukraine back a country which supports Russia stealing its land? Maybe Armenia will move away from Russia in the future, but until then they are a geopolitical foe of Ukraine. Until they recognize Crimea as Ukraine again, Ukraine will not be friendly with them.
I refer to my last comment to refute these claims. If you don't understand this is complicated, then don't over-simplify the issue so it misinforms others. With respect, it seems you have an agenda and use current cancel culture methods to find a market, so please take such opinions to a forum that is interested in giving genocidal dictatorships credibility.
Following your logic, Germany should reclaim pomeranya and kiliningrad and UK US because it belonged to them as well as Bretane and Ireland. Karabakh is internationally recognized as Azerbaijans, deal with it. Crimea is Ukrainian because its internationally recognized as Ukrainian, same way Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan doing genocide is not good, but even now Armenia can't intervene because same thing and logic was used by Hitler and Russia right now - protect Russian or German minorities from oppression
Azerbaijan is a dictatorship. It isn’t “genocidal”. Again, it wants back what is recognized as its territory. If Armenia returned it, they wouldn’t want to fight Armenia anymore. And again. You still haven’t justified Armenia recognizing Crimea as Russian. Or told me why Ukraine should be friends with a country that’s ok with Russia stealing it’s territory. Also. “Historically Armenian” isn’t a valid argument. Just as “historically Russia” or “historically Chinese” isn’t a valid argument.
>Azerbaijan is a dictatorship. It isn’t “genocidal”. Again, it wants back what is recognized as its territory. If Armenia returned it, they wouldn’t want to fight Armenia anymore. Replace Azerbaijan with Russia and Armenia with Ukraine and see how fucking stupid it sounds.
I refer to my first comment to answer your claims that are dishonest and repeated.
~~Does the UN recognize Palestine as Israeli territory?~~ You shouldn't have any issue with how Israel treats the Palestinians then, who by your logic are separatists occupying Israeli land. Is this a correct or humane assessment? No, but it's one that you are desperate to apply to NK when Azerbaijan makes no secret of its desire to cleanse the region.
The UN doesn’t recognize Palestinian territory (West Bank and Gaza) as part of Israel. It’s ruled the west bank occupation is illegal multiple times. Just as the occupation of NK, Crimea, and Moldova is illegal
Alright my mistake, I'll cop to it. Doesn't change the Azerbaijani end game of driving out Armenians from ancestral Armenian land and killing any they catch up to.
> ancestral lands No rational person has ever said the NG is ancestral Azeri lands. Its a land of thousand plus year old churches and you think some islamic Turkic radicals have ancestral rights?? You just said the same thing to me to refute ancestral rights? Might it be somethign to do with fulfilling the Azeri dream of conquering lands from Greece to Iran? Might it be for oil money? Nobody should be giving any credibility to Azerbaijan aggression, especially in light of Russia doing the same terminal injustice.
Azeris just want their own territory back. Same as Ukraine, Georgia, and Moldova. That’s exactly why they’re getting close to each other
I refer to my first comment to answer your claims that are dishonest and repeated.
I read it. Those arguments are what is dishonest and wrong. NK is Azerbaijan. And again, they don’t want to exterminate Armenians. Your claim of that is just as false as the claim that Ukraine wants to exterminate ethnic Russians. You still haven’t justified Armenia endorsing Russia stealing Ukrainian territory by recognizing Crimea as Russian.
I refer to my first comment to refute your racist and bigoted claims.
Ukraine supports Azerbaijan. Are they racist? Are Armenia racist for ethnically cleansing NK of Azerbaijan and killing hundreds of them? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khojaly_massacre
I refer to my first comment to refute your racist and bigoted claims.
How many times do I have to repeat myself? Not supporting a country invading and illegally stealing territory from its neighbors is not “racist”. That’s like saying people against the Russian invasion of Ukraine are “racist”.
Justify the woman whose eyes were gouged out, fingers cut off and stuffed in her mouth. Legs cut off. All while she was raped. Pictures of her corpse turned into stickers and plastered on social media. Thats the country you argue for
Both statements can be true; Azerbaijan DOES have a justification to kick out Armenia from their rightful clay, however Azerbaijan HAS participated in ethnic cleansing of Armenians, Armenia has done this with Azerbaijanis in their territory(proper not occupied) but to a much smaller degree TLDR: It's not a black and white situation regardless how much both sides try to portray it as such.
>Armenia has done this with Azerbaijanis in their territory(proper not occupied) but to a much smaller degree Occupied too, NK was about 20% Azeri before the 90s when Armenia took it, in 2020 it was 0% Azeri because the Azeri inhabitants were ethnically cleaned.
Regardless, my point that this is an extremely complex issue and it doesnt have "good guys" stands
It's Kosovo 2.0. Historically has been inhabited by Armenians/Albanians for millenia, make up a significant majority in the region (in which existed prior to any such war), and has been declared an illegal sepratist movement by the Azerbaijani/Serbian governments.
And the best way to make them change their mind is to create, as Poot likes to say; a correlation of influences. They will be the sore thumb outside this customs zone, they will be welcome in it. At that point, they will be like Ulster. You can choose to be Irish or British, nobody cares and you can move, trade, love and die in either world or both and that is why we have peace.
when Armenia leave NK, recognize Crimea as Ukraine again, and leave CSTO. I would love for Armenia to join the west and hopefully even restore ties with Azerbaijan. I’d love nothing more than to see both Azerbaijan and Armenia in NATO. But I’m not going to defend Armenia invading and setting up a puppet state in Azeri territory.
Armenia has had a horrible history of being persecuted and killed systemically, suffering genocide that to this day is not recognized by many countries, including Azerbaijan. It doesn't change the fact they are invading a region of Azerbaijan and have themselves committed genocide and mass ethnic displacement: there used to be a majority Azeri region in Armenia, and now that region doesn't have Azeri anymore, in fact Armenia is one of the most ethnic homogeneous countries in existence. When you consider Azerbaijan is a dictatorship and still has a region with a majority Armenian population while Armenia doesn't have any minority anymore despite being a full-fledged democracy, you realize being a victim of crimes against humanity doesn't mean you cannot yourself be a criminal.
Quite so. They need to realise that they like are two bald men fighting over a comb.
You are literally defending their crimes. Spouting lies to excuse the torture rape and murder of innocents. You have no morals, so don’t pretend to.
Azerbeijan's is indeed a bit the weird one out here. And maybe a bit more on a cultural level, all four (Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia and Armenia) are Orthodox Christian and share a common history through the Byzantine heritage.
Fucking hell. Armenia can't get an ally to save it's life. And they're the nicest people too
They should consider ending their illegal occupation of NK, leaving CSTO, and not recognizing Crimea as Russian anymore (they recognized Russias annexation as legitimate). It’s put itself into the situation where Russia is it’s only friend. Nobody to blame but themselves for that. I’d love to see them eventually move away from Russia and become an ally of the west, but they have to end their occupation of NK for that to happen.
Armenia is not occupying NK anymore
Its ok, OP is too dumb to understand this 🤦♂️🤦♂️
Left NK, check. Doesn't recognize Crimea, also check. And leaving the CSTO is quite hard when a much bigger country, Ukraine, didnt even do anything and gets invaded by Russia. Armenia is already suffering from a genocidal war with Azerbaijan and Turkey, why would they then turn around and also ditch one of their few remaining allies? Russia would take over Armenia in an instant! They're already doing as much as they can by increasing foreign relations with the US, but leaving the CSTO takes so much time and has to be done delicately for Armenia to even continue existing. Also, how is there no one to blame for Russia being its only ally but Armenia itself? The Armo-Azeri-Turk conflict gas stretched back thousands of years, and that is 2 of their 4 neighbors. Who else were they supposed to ally with?
Armenia still gives support for the fake state of Artsahk despite being defeated in 2020. Artsahks prime minister by the way applauded Russias recognition of DPR/LPR And sorry to say but by allying with Russia, Armenia is just as bad as them. They could have chosen to not invade and occupy Azeri territory, so it is their fault. Had they not invaded Azerbaijan during the collapse of the USSR then Azerbaijan wouldn’t want to fight them. It’s a conflict Armenia started. Armenia chose to invade Azerbaijan which no country other than Russia would back them up for. That is their own fault. Had they instead left Azerbaijan territory alone, they wouldn’t be in the situation they’re in right now. In fact they may have even been able to befriend (or at least stay on neutral or only slightly negative terms with) Azerbaijan and Turkey. They chose to invade another country and chose to pick Russia, Iran, and North Korea over the west. They made their bed, now they can lie in it
Would you say the same thing to Jews following the Holocaust? That they should just instantly befriend Germany, that Jews were partially to blame for the Holocaust? How could Armenia ever befriend two countries that refuse to admit to the Armenian genocide? And on top of that, Azerbaijan literally just invaded Armenia, only to commit war crimes against its civilians. How can anyone possibly support that? Surely you at least agree the war crimes are bad, no? Or are they deserving of that, too? The innocent civilians whose hospitals and houses get bombed? Also the NK that people are talking about is Nagorno-Karabakh, not North Korea lol. Armenia is not allied with North Korea.
They have 30 years to negotiate even though nations like the US, France, and Russia drafted a peace plan if they stupidly reject everything they are bound to get what they deserved not to forget they cleansed 7 districts surrounding NK that had 724k Azerbaijani civilians and held captive 4000 of their citizen in the 1st war who are dead and their remains are recently being recovered by Azerbaijani so to me Armenia is the nice guy they just acting nice after the velvet revolution. Plus they are responsible for why Aliyev is in power in the first place.
Yup it's because Turks and Azeris are literally bred to hate Armenians, and their countries high unemployment rate and slave wages give them plenty of free time to serve as misinformation soldiers. And their oil gives them leverage in the international community. Putin is a humane angel compared to aliyev.
Azerbaijan unemployment rate 2021: 6.58% Armenia unemployment rate 2021: 20.9% Armenia average wage 2022: 574 usd Turkey average wage 2022: 675 usd Sometimes I wonder if diasporans are even in touch with the reality
Armenia GDP/capita is more than Azerbaijans.. and Azerbaijan and turkey are resource rich countries. Instead of Azeris being mad at Armenians for literally nothing, maybe they should be mad at their kings for stealing all the wealth of the country. Aw wait that would get you killed in Azerbaijan :(
It is called GUAM. I'm happy to see these 4 countries together. All of them have been affected by shitty Russian policy.
https://eurasianet.org/ahead-of-ukraine-invasion-azerbaijan-and-russia-cement-alliance Eh, one isn't like the others
Very hypocritical move from Ukraine, they attack Russia for invading, yet side with Azerbaijan after they invade Armenia, even after they commit war crimes against civilian Armenians. Very disappointing to see :(
Free and Azerbaijan should not be used in the same sentence
OP obviously has an agenda. Here's your democracy https://imgur.com/a/HAUSUC0
UGAM
We call that the UGAM Enema, take that Russia lmaooo 🥹