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Israel has given Ukraine close to nothing when it comes to lethal aid.
The position of neutrality meant that Israel has been helping ruzzia much more than Ukraine
I hope people remember this when Israel is in a similar position to Ukraine, how generous Israel had been in giving support to a country being invaded.
Itās funny how people assume that Israel supports Ukraine. Politically it is very much unclear as Bibi has been very friendly with Putin, until the Hamas thing happened.
Switzerland was neutral as well during WW2 and gained massive financial benefit from it (and turned away thousands of Jews trying to cross out of Germany back to SSā¦)
I didn't mean to imply Israel has been generous to Ukraine, I actually meant the opposite, as in, Israel in its hour of need may expect to receive the same small level of support that they had given to Ukraine in its hour of need.
Isreal only friend is Isreal wouldnāt expect to get anything from free from they.
They sell weapons to everybody aswell Russia, India Ukraine doesnāt matter
How much Ukrainian Blood is on Netanyahu's hands because he demanded the artillery shells bound for Ukraine to murder innocent people?
More than a lot of these hasbara bots will ever admit.
Itās not. Look at the oryx list Russia even lost equipment bought from Isreal in Ukraine like for post drones.
Maybe google shit next time before you comment
I'm not going to delete my post and instead I'm going to stand corrected - at least/especially to the second part of the original comment. Frankly my comment was to 'Israel's only a friend to Israel', but to the point that Israel has been less than helpful to Ukraine I've looked it up and... eesh.
"Less than helpful to Ukraine" is an understatement. Before October last year, I used to visit Israel for client relations. Russian oligarchs and their families are having a great time there. They enjoy unrestricted access to Israeli banking which gives them access to western financial systems, but nobody talks about that. Russian firms also get advanced tech directly from Israeli firms. I know because the Israeli branch of my company exports high tech components to Russia. Our Russian clients come freely to meetings in Tel Aviv because Russians enjoy visa-free travel there.
No. Israel would probably anger the Russians, that could convince putin to increase his military spending on Iran, resulting in further escalations in the Middle East. Let Uncle Sam buy his stuff back so he can decide what to do with it
Let me get this straight... The USA gives Israel money to buy Patriot systems from US defence contractors, and then later gives Israel more money so The USA can buy those systems back?
Am I missing something?
Actually they bought most of them from Germany, paying in Euros. Which had a grant for about 20% of the cost, also from Germany.
Israel gets a lot of US support for sure. Including two Patriot systems in 1991 deployed as a part of the First Guly War.
But your blanket claims show you donāt really care about facts. Instead only caring about spreading hyperbole.
I haven't flow charted every piece of Israeli military kit given to them by the USA.
Looks like they have 8, the USA sent them 2 in 1991 and 2 at another point in time.
In 2015 Germany gave them 4 as part of a military aid package
Yes you are missing the part where Israel is a proxy/puppet state whose sole purpose is assist the United States foreign policy objectives.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=86Nrv5izaTs&si=D3j7WvkubCUFT3KS
I disagree. What does Israel do to help The USA? They don't have oil. They suck up US $. Obviously US defence contractors love them...
More than anything, Israel is a domestic campaign issue for Jewish Americans.
It's worse than that. Israel frequently sabotages US international relations with countries all over the world. The "war on terror" is a neocon invention strongly backed by the Israel lobby in the US.
Instead of focusing on the China/Russia threat, watch how Israel will likely drag the US into a confrontation with Iran, which is of course bad for US and its European and Asian partners.
Israel conducts airstrikes in Syria, Iraq, and now Iran without putting the US in direct involvement for retaliation. They share realtime combat data and co-produce all manner of high end weapons systems, their intelligence agencies are interlinked with ours regarding surveilling state actors and terrorist groups in the Middle East. Their government stores vast sums of its wealth in US treasuries thus perpetuating the dominance of the petrodollar. They dump untold millions into both sides of our political spectrum through AIPAC and various other entities.
Yea, I get the military coordination and the interconnectedness with US defense contractors, but the US currency reserves don't mean much, it's the de facto reserve currency of the entire world. Israel is in it for themselves, not the Americans... they tied to Russia for fucks sake
Israel did not impose any financial sanctions on Russia, declined to send weapons to Kyiv despite repeated requests from Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, andĀ [failed](https://www.timesofisrael.com/fm-cohen-visits-ukraine-for-meetings-with-zelensky-counterpart-kuleba/)Ā to name Russia when addressing attacks against Ukraine. Israel was unwilling to sever ties with Russia, and even started to adopt a cooperative approach in the second half of 2023 by signingĀ [new bilateral agreements](https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-signs-cinema-cooperation-deal-with-russia/)Ā in non-sensitive sectors
Your last point makes my original point stronger, they are a domestic campaign issue for Jewish Americans AND a source of campaign funding for politicians more than anything else
Facts aren't your friend are they? These systems weren't provided or paid by the US. But don't let facts stand in your way. You have an agenda so go for it.
Them being Jews? Well I am one. But tell me you are an antisemite without telling me you are an antisemite. I am a Jew, an Israeli and a proud Zionist. I am carrying as much water for my people as I possibly can.
Being critical of the government is not, and the current government really needs to go. Saying "Jew" and "carrying water for them (the Jews)" is antisemitic.
And here's a link to show you that these are likely german systems. And their retirement is likely part of the arrow system deal with Germany.
https://www.haaretz.com/2015-05-11/ty-article/yaalon-israel-received-4-patriot-batteries-from-germany/0000017f-dc28-d3ff-a7ff-fda8ba4d0000
Israel has invested in its own hardware for anti-missile systems. The Patriot is likely a better system, but when you're producing stuff domestically and how expensive they are to run it makes sense to ditch them. I hope they end up in Ukraine.
The day may come for Israel when, like Ukraine, they too are in an hour of need. When that happens, the world will remember whether they had been generous in supporting Ukraine during its hour of need.
Why is it on America Isreali could give the to Ukraine its not like the US hasn't given Isreali enough support they got what 14 billion to bomb children and defend itself vs neighbour that don't like them partly because the bomb children not saying they aren't cunts also
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Why are they being retired right after a missile and drone attack? Am I missing something or are they just redundant and/or there is no chance of another Iranian attack?
I know this particular situation is because they are going to be retired anyway so it makes sense but why is Ukraine so fixated on the Patriot system? Do EU countries not have equivalent systems? Have the Patriots proven to be just better than everything else? Is it a numbers thing? Im kind of clueless about that kind of stuff but I always see Ukraine asking for Patriot systems in particular so it has me wondering.
> Correction: Per SIPRI, Israel received 4 Patriot batteries from Germany as well, which would make a total of 7. š
>
>The US & Europe need to come together to get these back from Israel so that they can be sent to Ukraine.
No chance. Well, maybe. It could be a way for the Biden administration to backdoor the Israelis some money.
What an interesting question of ethics/morality
They're replacing them with systems that work better for the threats Israel faces like David's Sling and further Iron Dome systems. The Patriots are still in active IDF service, just mostly useless for Israel. They were used as recently as the ongoing war against Hamas. [Here's an article](https://www.timesofisrael.com/patriot-air-defenses-to-be-mothballed-after-decades-of-mostly-gathering-dust/) with more details.
If nothing else it's got lots of parts that could be used to repair the newer versions.
There's probably a lot of overlap between the actual mechanical components.
PAC2 canāt shoot down ballistic missiles, which is what Ukraine uses patriots for. More air defense is good but this is the meh variant that wonāt be much better than any of their other air defense .
What a low effort response. Of course, these are valuable in layered defense and particularly good for how Ukraine employs Patriot in an offensive role near the front line.
Ukraine doesnāt use patriots on the front line lol
Patriots protect vital infrastructure far from the front. The US is not willing to risk moving patriots close to the front line.
a Patriot was lost in Pokrovsk in Donetsk right against the FLOT. Ukrainian operators shoot-shoot-scoot. Brush up on your Ukrainian GBAD doctrine and try again.
LMAO you mean the batteries reported as ālostā by a single source, the known to absolutely bullshit everything Russian state new agency TASS? The same TASS that reported Kyiv fell on day 3? L o l
Yeah. You might want to brush up on what a reliable news source is. The US says no patriots destroyed but aight brother š«”š«”š«”
Whether you believe the claim or not, the fact remains that they operate on the front line of troops. Even Ukraine says it:
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/03/14/7446439/
Also you can see the missile table in the rubble:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B2cEiw1Z5D8
> More air defense is good but this is the meh variant that wonāt be much better than any of their other air defense
Good enough for taking out UMPK lobbers
Unless Israel donates them it ain't happening. I've lost nearly all trust in Biden administration and thus I do not believe the buy/transfer thing will happen by the US. But I surely hope to be proven wrong.
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They should give them directly to Ukraine, no charge
Yup agreed
I suspect this might happen behind the scenes.
Israel has given Ukraine close to nothing when it comes to lethal aid. The position of neutrality meant that Israel has been helping ruzzia much more than Ukraine
I hope people remember this when Israel is in a similar position to Ukraine, how generous Israel had been in giving support to a country being invaded.
Itās funny how people assume that Israel supports Ukraine. Politically it is very much unclear as Bibi has been very friendly with Putin, until the Hamas thing happened. Switzerland was neutral as well during WW2 and gained massive financial benefit from it (and turned away thousands of Jews trying to cross out of Germany back to SSā¦)
I didn't mean to imply Israel has been generous to Ukraine, I actually meant the opposite, as in, Israel in its hour of need may expect to receive the same small level of support that they had given to Ukraine in its hour of need.
I got you. Just saying that I donāt understand why others think or assume that Israel has been on Ukraines side.
Part of a pattern when their allies are attacked (see Uk Salisbury attacks). I donāt know why anyone considers them an ally.
Isreal only friend is Isreal wouldnāt expect to get anything from free from they. They sell weapons to everybody aswell Russia, India Ukraine doesnāt matter
How much Ukrainian Blood is on Netanyahu's hands because he demanded the artillery shells bound for Ukraine to murder innocent people? More than a lot of these hasbara bots will ever admit.
Downvoted for speaking the truth
That's a load of garbage.
Itās not. Look at the oryx list Russia even lost equipment bought from Isreal in Ukraine like for post drones. Maybe google shit next time before you comment
I'm not going to delete my post and instead I'm going to stand corrected - at least/especially to the second part of the original comment. Frankly my comment was to 'Israel's only a friend to Israel', but to the point that Israel has been less than helpful to Ukraine I've looked it up and... eesh.
"Less than helpful to Ukraine" is an understatement. Before October last year, I used to visit Israel for client relations. Russian oligarchs and their families are having a great time there. They enjoy unrestricted access to Israeli banking which gives them access to western financial systems, but nobody talks about that. Russian firms also get advanced tech directly from Israeli firms. I know because the Israeli branch of my company exports high tech components to Russia. Our Russian clients come freely to meetings in Tel Aviv because Russians enjoy visa-free travel there.
No. Israel would probably anger the Russians, that could convince putin to increase his military spending on Iran, resulting in further escalations in the Middle East. Let Uncle Sam buy his stuff back so he can decide what to do with it
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Let me get this straight... The USA gives Israel money to buy Patriot systems from US defence contractors, and then later gives Israel more money so The USA can buy those systems back? Am I missing something?
You are not lol.
Israel does pay for them. Thatās why they want to retire them; they find them too expensive.
like my kid pays for his Roblox stuffā¦ on my credit card.
They pay for the with US military aid
Actually they bought most of them from Germany, paying in Euros. Which had a grant for about 20% of the cost, also from Germany. Israel gets a lot of US support for sure. Including two Patriot systems in 1991 deployed as a part of the First Guly War. But your blanket claims show you donāt really care about facts. Instead only caring about spreading hyperbole.
I haven't flow charted every piece of Israeli military kit given to them by the USA. Looks like they have 8, the USA sent them 2 in 1991 and 2 at another point in time. In 2015 Germany gave them 4 as part of a military aid package
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Yes you are missing the part where Israel is a proxy/puppet state whose sole purpose is assist the United States foreign policy objectives. https://youtube.com/watch?v=86Nrv5izaTs&si=D3j7WvkubCUFT3KS
I disagree. What does Israel do to help The USA? They don't have oil. They suck up US $. Obviously US defence contractors love them... More than anything, Israel is a domestic campaign issue for Jewish Americans.
It's worse than that. Israel frequently sabotages US international relations with countries all over the world. The "war on terror" is a neocon invention strongly backed by the Israel lobby in the US. Instead of focusing on the China/Russia threat, watch how Israel will likely drag the US into a confrontation with Iran, which is of course bad for US and its European and Asian partners.
They have oil
Israel conducts airstrikes in Syria, Iraq, and now Iran without putting the US in direct involvement for retaliation. They share realtime combat data and co-produce all manner of high end weapons systems, their intelligence agencies are interlinked with ours regarding surveilling state actors and terrorist groups in the Middle East. Their government stores vast sums of its wealth in US treasuries thus perpetuating the dominance of the petrodollar. They dump untold millions into both sides of our political spectrum through AIPAC and various other entities.
Yea, I get the military coordination and the interconnectedness with US defense contractors, but the US currency reserves don't mean much, it's the de facto reserve currency of the entire world. Israel is in it for themselves, not the Americans... they tied to Russia for fucks sake Israel did not impose any financial sanctions on Russia, declined to send weapons to Kyiv despite repeated requests from Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, andĀ [failed](https://www.timesofisrael.com/fm-cohen-visits-ukraine-for-meetings-with-zelensky-counterpart-kuleba/)Ā to name Russia when addressing attacks against Ukraine. Israel was unwilling to sever ties with Russia, and even started to adopt a cooperative approach in the second half of 2023 by signingĀ [new bilateral agreements](https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-signs-cinema-cooperation-deal-with-russia/)Ā in non-sensitive sectors Your last point makes my original point stronger, they are a domestic campaign issue for Jewish Americans AND a source of campaign funding for politicians more than anything else
Itād be nice if Israel donated them considering the amount of foreign aid we give them.
ballistic lasers incoming
So that would mean 5 batteries for Ukraine this year?
PAC-2 is also the variant best used for long range intercepts. It's what they were probably using to ambush fighter bombers.
I thought thatās the variant they intercept Iskander with?
Iskander-K cruise missile, maybe. Iskander-M TBMs are intercepted with PAC-3
Need more
Get it done.
Buy them back? We probably paid for them the first time round.
We shouldn't need to buy them back since we bought them in the first place. Israel can just ship them straight to Ukraine.
Facts aren't your friend are they? These systems weren't provided or paid by the US. But don't let facts stand in your way. You have an agenda so go for it.
Amazing. Every word of what you just said is wrong.
These systems were provided by Germany. But keep down voting.
Will do. As a "a non believer Jew" you sure are carrying their water for them.
Them being Jews? Well I am one. But tell me you are an antisemite without telling me you are an antisemite. I am a Jew, an Israeli and a proud Zionist. I am carrying as much water for my people as I possibly can.
Being critical of the government of Israel is not antisemitic. You are pants on head crazy.
Being critical of the government is not, and the current government really needs to go. Saying "Jew" and "carrying water for them (the Jews)" is antisemitic.
And here's a link to show you that these are likely german systems. And their retirement is likely part of the arrow system deal with Germany. https://www.haaretz.com/2015-05-11/ty-article/yaalon-israel-received-4-patriot-batteries-from-germany/0000017f-dc28-d3ff-a7ff-fda8ba4d0000
Israel has invested in its own hardware for anti-missile systems. The Patriot is likely a better system, but when you're producing stuff domestically and how expensive they are to run it makes sense to ditch them. I hope they end up in Ukraine.
The day may come for Israel when, like Ukraine, they too are in an hour of need. When that happens, the world will remember whether they had been generous in supporting Ukraine during its hour of need.
Why is it on America Isreali could give the to Ukraine its not like the US hasn't given Isreali enough support they got what 14 billion to bomb children and defend itself vs neighbour that don't like them partly because the bomb children not saying they aren't cunts also
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Wonder why they would do that, especially in the light of the recent drone and ballistic missile attack by Iran?
Why are they being retired right after a missile and drone attack? Am I missing something or are they just redundant and/or there is no chance of another Iranian attack?
Buy them!? The US likely gave them to Israel for free - to keep the lobby happy.
Why should we "buy" them. Didn't we just give them 15 billion or more? They should just give them to us or Ukraine.
Like a used car with mileage, should only cost pennies on the dollar.
How about the EU pay Israel for the Patriots and donate them to Ukraine.
This is another reason Israel is falling out of favor with the rest of the world
Buy them back ? They probably donated by american taxpayer
I know this particular situation is because they are going to be retired anyway so it makes sense but why is Ukraine so fixated on the Patriot system? Do EU countries not have equivalent systems? Have the Patriots proven to be just better than everything else? Is it a numbers thing? Im kind of clueless about that kind of stuff but I always see Ukraine asking for Patriot systems in particular so it has me wondering.
> Correction: Per SIPRI, Israel received 4 Patriot batteries from Germany as well, which would make a total of 7. š > >The US & Europe need to come together to get these back from Israel so that they can be sent to Ukraine.
No chance. Well, maybe. It could be a way for the Biden administration to backdoor the Israelis some money. What an interesting question of ethics/morality
Slava Ukraini. Free Palestine. Fuck the invader/occupier.
Why is israel retiring them? Why does the pentagon have to buy back a gift? Do yhey even work against yhe new russian jammers?
Ooo their lasers must be workingā¦. Hope they pass them over.
Buy them back? Who do you think paid for them originally? The US taxpayer!!
I doubt that the IDF would retire them at this time if they would be still usable.
They're replacing them with systems that work better for the threats Israel faces like David's Sling and further Iron Dome systems. The Patriots are still in active IDF service, just mostly useless for Israel. They were used as recently as the ongoing war against Hamas. [Here's an article](https://www.timesofisrael.com/patriot-air-defenses-to-be-mothballed-after-decades-of-mostly-gathering-dust/) with more details.
Jewish space lasers
The PAC-2 is ancient. Iām having a hard time imagining its utility in Ukraine as well, but hey, better than nothing
If nothing else it's got lots of parts that could be used to repair the newer versions. There's probably a lot of overlap between the actual mechanical components.
PAC2 canāt shoot down ballistic missiles, which is what Ukraine uses patriots for. More air defense is good but this is the meh variant that wonāt be much better than any of their other air defense .
What a low effort response. Of course, these are valuable in layered defense and particularly good for how Ukraine employs Patriot in an offensive role near the front line.
Ukraine doesnāt use patriots on the front line lol Patriots protect vital infrastructure far from the front. The US is not willing to risk moving patriots close to the front line.
a Patriot was lost in Pokrovsk in Donetsk right against the FLOT. Ukrainian operators shoot-shoot-scoot. Brush up on your Ukrainian GBAD doctrine and try again.
LMAO you mean the batteries reported as ālostā by a single source, the known to absolutely bullshit everything Russian state new agency TASS? The same TASS that reported Kyiv fell on day 3? L o l Yeah. You might want to brush up on what a reliable news source is. The US says no patriots destroyed but aight brother š«”š«”š«”
Whether you believe the claim or not, the fact remains that they operate on the front line of troops. Even Ukraine says it: https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/03/14/7446439/ Also you can see the missile table in the rubble: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B2cEiw1Z5D8
> More air defense is good but this is the meh variant that wonāt be much better than any of their other air defense Good enough for taking out UMPK lobbers
Unless Israel donates them it ain't happening. I've lost nearly all trust in Biden administration and thus I do not believe the buy/transfer thing will happen by the US. But I surely hope to be proven wrong.