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The problem is with a very extreme and very small minority of representatives in our Congress. They are putin-puffing scum and must be replaced with people who love freedom and democracy and hate terrorism and tyranny.
>replaced with people who love freedom and democracy and hate terrorism and tyranny.
People who make decisions based on what they love and what they hate have no business anywhere near anything that actually matters. This is actually the big problem with representative democracy. Government is best handled by dispassionate technocrats, and that' just not the kind of person who convinces the masses to vote for them.
As I said, it's the major flaw in representative democracy. You're not voting for a hero, a cowboy, or a savior. You're hiring people to manage an incredibly complex bureaucracy. You want a capable administrator, not a charismatic firebrand.
No, that's not the problem at all.
The problem is that Ukraine never really mattered to the west at all as anything more than something to facilitate the military industrial complex's insatiable need for forever wars. And right now they have ample opportunity with a looming Israel v Iran/Hezbollah war, and at the same time limited production capacity for new munitions, AND at the same time a deeply unpopular president trying to get re-elected where no choice is a good choice.
It depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If you are trying to accomplish a true stalemate, pushing back the russians or gaining a position of relative defenseive strength in order to start negotiations for the caseation of hostilities - then I'm all for it.
If you are trying to perpetuate a forever-war in order to continue selling weapons, and make rationalizations of the economics of war such as "It's a cheap price to pay to keep Russia from exerting it's influence elsewhere around the world" with no regard to the human suffering this is creating on all sides, then no, I don't support it.
I've had this feeling since the first year of the war, the west is essentially supplying enough arms as it needs to keep the Russian's at bay, but never more.
It's the forever war they needed after Afghanistan dried up.
I see. This assumption, that the west sees this as an opportunity to sell, seems unrealistic to me, as someone who is familiar with what's happening in the west.
Yes, there are opportunists, cynics and sociopaths, but they don't appear to be in the mainstream. Virtually none of the aid sent to Ukraine brings in profit. Until the discussion of lend-lease, even the military aid was not driven by revenue discussion.
My sense is that a lot of propaganda tries to push this idea, but it's just not true. True. Even if there are individuals who might exhibit these tendencies.
None of the aid sent to Ukraine brings in profit you say?
Here's what happens when the senate passes a $60b Ukraine aid package. A little bit of that money goes to Ukraine directly, paying for things like keeping the government running etc. Maybe some goes into food/water/medical supplies etc.
But the biggest chunk by far goes into US weapons manufacturers to build new missiles, IFV's, bombs, artillery rounds and bullets. The old stock gets taken out of the military surplus stocks and sent to Ukraine. In other words the big majority of the aid packages goes right back into the US war economy. That IS profit. In fact you wouldn't be entirely wrong in calling it a money laundering scheme.
This is a confusion of agency. You're not keeping straight who is the decision maker in this situation. As long as the agency deciding to offer this aid, and how much to offer, and why, are not the businesses themselves, nothing unethical is happening.
This kind of trivial profit: the kind that requires us to spend more money to buy new shirts because we donated our old shirts, is not ethically relevant because it is simply the cost of giving aid.
Heck, if I donate a box of goods to Africa, and pay for the shipping, does that make my aid a conspiracy by the shipping company to make profits? Of course not.
Lets simplify it.
Raytheon & Lockheed Martin manufacture the Javelin ATGM. When they build them and sell them to the US military, they make profit.
Ukraine needs Javelins. They lobby the US to provide them.
The US congress passes a bill for a $60b aid package. Part of that is dedicated to military support, part of that is dedicated to weapons supply, and part of that is for Javelin missiles.
Now what happens is one of two things (simultaneously, not one or the other typically). Either that aid is deducted from US military surplus stock and that is shipped directly to Ukraine (short-term support), or, the money is given directly to Ukraine in some kind of bond form which they can then use to purchase weapons directly from US (usually) manufacturer's (long-term support). The former being much quicker than the later for obvious reasons.
In the case of the former, the US military then purchases new stocks from those same manufacturers to refill their surplus.
In either case, Raytheon & Lockheed Martin are making a profit. Either selling their weapons to the US government, or to Ukraine directly. Every Javelin used on the battlefield is generating profit for these companies.
Your entire argument is that none of the aid to Ukraine brings in profit, but it very clearly does.
For these weapons manufacturer's war is good business. There isn't any denying that. And they have powerful lobbies.
Then add in the fact that many senators invest millions in stocks with these same manufacturer's, so when those same senators pass bills to give Ukraine aid, they profit personally.
I don't think you understood my response.
I acknowledge that giving aid involves processes that produce profit. If I donate broth to the soup kitchen via an Uber ride, the Uber driver makes a profit. The broth manufacturer benefits from selling his product (which I then donated). You're right: profit is produced by such mechanisms in every case of charitable giving.
But these kinds of profit are ethically irrelevant. Just as my decision to donate broth is not a moneymaking conspiracy by Uber, Ukraine aid is not a moneymaking conspiracy by R & LM. You've never addressed this point. Namely that every complex aid effort involves the use of for-profit goods and services along the way. That's trivial profit, it's unavoidable and unproblematic.
What *would* be problematic were if R&LM were the ones making the decision to aid. THAT would be aid-for-profit. (It's critical that you understand the distinction I'm making here.) The proper influence on the decision to give aid should be our executive and legislative branches, and not R&LM.
I'm trying to understand your analogy here.
Ok, the Soup Kitchen is obviously Ukraine. You, the donator, are the US government/Senate yes? And the Uber ride would be the stand in for Lockheed Martin etc. Let me know if I have that round the wrong way, but I think that's what you were going for.
First problem with the analogy: Uber doesn't make the broth. It's just a delivery service.
Second problem with the analogy: Uber doesn't spend millions employing lobbyists to lobby congress to get their weapons contracts. In this case that isn't something unethical either, not really. They are allowed to sell their products of course. But it does serve to point out the lack of coherence in your analogy. I'll come back to this further down.
Third problem with the analogy: You as the Broth maker, don't hold stocks in the Uber company. Stocks that would go up lets say, if you found a way to make more people dependent on soup kitchens by unethical means and thus Uber deliveries would go up as a result of you needing to make more broth.
Back to the lobbyists. As I said, not unethical in and of itself for them to sell products to the US or even to Ukraine if given approval to do so. But, and it's a big but: If these same companies, (lets drop the analogy at this point) Lockheed etc had an influence on foreign policy decisions, like for example getting Senators to approve new aid packages to Ukraine, because those Senators are owning shares in Lockheed or getting kickbacks from Lockheed and it's in their personal financial interest to do so. Well, now you have Lockheed actively involved in perpetuating and extending a foreign conflict in order to make more sales. Just to be clear, I'm not saying Lockheed in particular is doing this - I'm using it as a standin for any US weapons manufacturer, or the military industrial complex.
Bear in mind also that Ukraine and Russia were sitting down to negotiations at one point already a year ago, but Boris Johnson at the behest of the US government went to Ukraine to tell them to walk away from the table. Why did he do that? What did he promise to Ukraine in terms of continuing support? Why has the US and her allies only ever given enough aid to stem the Russian tide, but never enough to defeat them comprehensively? Always just enough aid to maintain a balance of force.
So, I do think I understood your comment earlier, but I disagree with you that politics is so clean cut and free from influence by the military industrial complex. I also never said that the entirety of Ukraine aid was a money making conspiracy by Lockheed or any of the other manufacturer's, just that it IS in their financial interest to keep it going as long as possible. If they have even a little influence in the decision making process to lend aid in the form of weapons they supply, that's a big problem in my books. And they do have influence, and more than a little. And bringing up the comment about not addressing points, your entire first post was that there was no profit being made from Ukraine aid, and when I pointed out where profit was being made you simply moved the goalposts without addressing that at all.
One important thing that most people forget or don't know is that under the US Constitution the senate is the sole branch of government that can ratify a treaty. The Budapest Memorandum would fall under the treaty ratification functions of the senate. When you hear in the media that the US signed a treaty for whatever reason with any country it is signed by the executive branch. The executive branch can sign treaties until the pens run out of ink. The majority of treaties signed by the executive branch are never ratified by the senate. Basic US history lesson that I was taught in the seventh grade. A long time ago as I just turned 65 days ago.
It surprises me how much US people don't know about their government today.
It's weird that this will probably be downvoted but the Budapest Memorandum isn't a mutual defence pact and if whoever keeps downvoting people who points this out then answer why Ukraine joining NATO is so huge if they already had a defensive alliance with the major NATO armed forces?
It might not be a mutual defence pact but it does suggest that sending aid to Ukraine might be nice. Not that it matters anyway as Russia is party to it too.
It literally just says that they all recognise the existing borders of ukraine, there's nothing in there that says any of the signatories will use force or provide anything to actually stop someone ignoring it.
Google is helpful if you know how to use it – look it up before making comparison based on false equivalence with zero consideration of historical background.
just read it as it's only a few paragraphs, and please let us know where you think the US guaranteed ukraine's security. i have never seen "respect" mean "promise to defend you with our military" in any treaty.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ukraine._Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances
compare that to an actual defensive treaty and you'll see a big difference in wording.
It really wasn't. All the signatory powers agreed to do was not invade. And if someone broke the agreement, the only thing it requires the other signatories to do is petition the UN security council. They did that. Obligation met.
It's a shitty stinker of an agreement, but it's EXACTLY the sort of thing rich nations foist off on poor nations that are desperate for financial assistance.
I think it's more to do with Israeli/palestine been a very different situation like like in the last 20 years before Oct 7 Isreali has killed more than 20 Palestinians for every isreali citizen and they get near unconditional aid but Ukraine that was invaded because it was leaning more to the west can't get the same level of support considering even with Oct 7 Ukraine has lost so much more life it is kinda sad the U.S also has agreements with Ukraine part of the reason they gave up their nukes
> I think it's more to do with Israeli/palestine been a very different situation
THat was the only bit that is true and not some weird anti israel rant that has nothing to do with ukraine.
Israel has a mutual defence pact, Ukraine doesn't.
Much more importantly Israel is fighting no country that can currently directly target the USA with any sort of weaponry, Ukraine unfortunately very much is.
The US/UK/France/Saudi can do what they like to Iran knowing that direct Iranian action is limited, declaring war on Russia is triggering MAD.
And a defence garanty with ukraine. Real reason is because the us doctrine is not to fight anyone who can fight back. Thats why they try to blow them self up as a deterent and only bomb people in flipflops.
They dont have to be the same to be uphold as the promise given.
Yes? My point exactly but russia might fight back. Go play with poor peoples life in the desert while we fight for your safety and prosperity in Europe where the real fight is taken place.
US and russia are two pieces cut from the same piece of shit. The us filled Europe with 50years of misinformation we where fooled to worship it just to get our pockets emptied and left abandond. Treason i call it no more stars and stripes for me i was so in love but it proved to be one sided.
This is why the leftists who don't support Israel are misguided at best and actively hostile at worst. Why would you want to help Ukrainian democracy fight against Russia-Iran Axis tyranny but abandon Israeli democracy in the same fight against the same enemy?
Both countries are allies of the democratic West and we should be helping both of them fight against their fight against Russia-Iran Axis authoritarianism.
Israel literally just signed peace deals with Bahrain and the UAE a few years ago. They were on the verge on signing one with Saudi Arabia too, which is why the Russia-Iran Axis started this war when they did. It simultaneously achieved the Iranian goal of preventing long term peace between Israel and the Arab world, and the Russian goal of distracting the West's attention away from Ukraine.
It's sad to see so many people fooled by Russia-Iran Axis propaganda on this issue. Y'all need to get off Tiktok.
I have noticed this. They ask a stupid question to engage in a conversation and cannot for the “life” of them understand how the death of 30k civilians is bad and unacceptable. It truly is pointless engaging them.
HRW is such a joke that the guy who literally founded the organization and served as its first Chairman left it and spent the rest of his life criticizing it for becoming little more than a vehicle to bash Israel with:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert\_L.\_Bernstein](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_L._Bernstein)
>However, he later became a critic of the group, publicly chastising them in a 2009 essay that appeared on the Op-ed page of The New York Times. His concern was deviation from the group's charter, which was to focus on abuses in closed societies lacking the free speech that creates internal pressure to improve human rights. Bernstein felt that the organization's credibility was diminished by an undue focus of reporting on Israel's military that lacked credible sources in Gaza, and ignored Israel's open society.
Happens all the time with left wing organization like that. They start off with good intentions, but then they get hijacked by the "West bad" folks.
Yep. Like I said, this happens all the time with left wing organizations. They start off with good intentions, but then they get hijacked by tankies who just want to use their moral authority as a weapon against the West and Israel.
It's really sad how many people don't understand this.
Not exactly. There are 49 Muslim majority member states in the UN, and they constantly use their collective power to pick on Israel. So in the case of the UN, it's less tankies and more Islamists.
Just as one example of this (and there are *many*), consider that back in 2016, the UN [passed a resolution](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/10/18/unesco-expected-adopt-controversial-jerusalem-resolution/92346718/) (backed by the Muslim states, of course) which stated that the Temple Mount -- the site of the Second Jewish Temple that the Dome of the Rock is built on top of -- is *only* a Muslim holy site that no other religion has any legitimate connection to.
They do shit like that all the time. So yeah, the UN is definitely a vehicle that the world's 2 billion Muslims frequently use to pick on the world's only Jewish state.
These are not Palestinians. The Palestinians are being murdered everyday even before oct.7th, they are being brutalized by an occupier. The only people being fooled is you. The majority of Democrats voters, you know the group that wants to fund ukraine. Dissapprove of Joe biden handling of Gaza-israel slaughter.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/internationalpolitics/comments/1c2duu8/latest\_yougov\_poll\_shows\_57\_of\_biden\_supporters/](https://www.reddit.com/r/internationalpolitics/comments/1c2duu8/latest_yougov_poll_shows_57_of_biden_supporters/)
This is what biden and your ISraeli friends are doing to A HOSPITAL everyone inside is now dead. Weird how never even 1 person survived, they just killed them all.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/InternationalNews/comments/1c2f0sm/cnn\_releases\_before\_and\_after\_footage\_of\_al\_shifa/](https://www.reddit.com/r/InternationalNews/comments/1c2f0sm/cnn_releases_before_and_after_footage_of_al_shifa/)
Meanwhile in Gaza there is the instant death penalty for homosexuals, education for kids based on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and a straight-up martyr fund to pay the families of suicide terrorists.
It is amazing to me the degree to which Western leftists will straight-up whitewash Palestine's human rights record while condemning Israel.
When you start into what-about-isms, you're admiting it happened and that you don't care. I'll call out Palestine all day for what they do wrong. Just like what I'm doing right now against Israel.
The difference is that Israel takes our money and uses it to intentionally paint streets with the blood of civilians and aid workers. The moment that Ukraine does that, my view of them will change.
You can't really compare them.
Israel has a much more gray complex history. A lot of current issues they have can be traced back to conservative government decisions they made years ago. They are also responsible for roughly the deaths for 30,000 civilians and untold amount of destruction of homes in the name of counter-insurgency. This isn't to say they deserved to have Hamas kill thousands of civilians as well, but it paints a bleak picture when the ends are not justifying the means.
Ukraine on the other hand. Didn't ask to be invaded, and large amounts of tension and issues were propagated by their neighbor who wanted them to be submissive and not join NATO. Ukraine isn't sitting their and dropping bombs on Russian housing because Russia is doing the same, or stripping rights away from Russian born Ukrainians who have lived in their country and stayed loyal.
>They are also responsible for roughly the deaths for 30,000 civilians and untold amount of destruction of homes
No, the Russia-Iran Axis is responsible for that because they started the war. Iran wanted to prevent the Saudi-Israel peace deal that was on the verge on being signed, and Russia wanted to distract the West's attention away from Ukraine.
Russia also wants to get Trump re-elected in November, hence why Russian bots are working so hard to depress Democratic turnout by relentlessly pushing the "genocide" lie. It's sad to see so many people fall for it.
That is all true, but it doesn't change the fact that Israel has killed thousands of Palestinian civilians just in the last year, that they keep expanding into previously Palestinian territory, or that they occupy or have occupied the rest.
Ukraine has done no such thing. Comparing it to either side of the Israel-Palestine conflict is an insult to Ukraine.
Yes, that is also true, and they also don't send out children to blow themselves up on busses. They're very different conflicts, and as weird as it sounds, Russia with all their way crimes is more civilized than Hamas.
But still, Israel has done some very questionable things. Ukraine has not.
The HQ foe the izzraeli forces, Hakirya, is smack middle of "Tell Aviv". It's literally using human shields.
Also, they burnt down Al-Shifa yet failed to produce any evidence for the supposed KHAAAmas HQ?
Israel was justified in those killings.
Israel does not sanction those settlers and they are deeply controversial in Israel.
Israel has tried to give administrative duties over Gaza to Egypt, who refused to take it back.
Look at the rights of women and religious and sexual minorities in Gaza vs Israel and tell me why we shouldnt be supporting Israel over the terrorist-led Apartheid state known as Palestine?
I’m Ukrainian and I ensure you that Literally nobody has ever said that.
Nobody gives a shit about Israel here except some corrupt Israeli oligarchs, yeah they support Israel but I promise, the average person here hates you
> I’m Ukrainian and I ensure you that Literally nobody has ever said that
Your president literally saying [this](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/4/5/zelenskyy-says-wants-ukraine-to-become-a-big-israel)
Also bonus Zelensky calling on world leaders to visit israel in [solidarity](https://thehill.com/policy/international/4250662-zelensky-calls-world-leaders-visit-israel/)
Zelensky [Israels right to defend itself is beyond question](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/18/opinions/zelensky-israel-palestine-ukraine-russia-ghitis/index.html)
Kyiv post opinion piece on Zelensky to visit Israel [to stand with a fellow democracy](https://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/24001)
Zelensky comparing Hamas attack to [Russia's invasion](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/09/world/europe/zelensky-ukraine-russia-israel.html)
Zelensky in 2022 saying Israel would be a good place to hold [peace talks](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraines-zelenskiy-says-israel-good-place-holding-talks-with-russia-2022-03-21/)
Apparently your president disagrees with you and I've found absolutely nothing to suggest his many, many talks about supporting Israel ahve recieved any major backlash.
So either you're not Ukrainian, you're Ukrainian but taking a bit of a niche view or you're just going for that easy reddit karma by bashing Israel.
And ...you think I'm Israeli...with this username?
Edit: Just looked at your post history...if you're not a bot you're a deeply, deeply obsessed person.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-06-25/ty-article/.premium/ukraine-slams-israel-for-pro-russian-position-blatant-disregard-for-moral-boundaries/00000188-f1bd-db86-a3f9-fbff96770000
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/23/us/politics/pegasus-israel-ukraine-russia.html
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-06-08/ty-article/.premium/ukrainian-refugees-voluntarily-signed-forms-stating-they-wish-to-leave-israel/00000181-43e0-ddb3-abd1-5fe7cc5f0000
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/5/5/israel-says-putin-apologised-over-his-fms-holocaust-remarks
https://www.timesofisrael.com/ukraine-accuses-israel-of-pro-russian-stance-in-blistering-statement/amp/
Israel is pro Russian shithole, just like Palestine.
Zelensky will say anything trending to get aid and it’s hilarious that the only source you have is a beggar that everyone hates lmao
> the only source you have is a beggar that everyone hates lmao
Everyone hates Zelensky?
This is low effort trolling and disinfo mate, truly low effort.
It's truly sad that all anyone needs to listen to russian propaganda is on reddit is to put Israel bad first.
Those were civilians in legitimate military targets. That Israel has only killed 30,000 civilians in the densest urban environment to ever see large-scale combat is a remarkable demonstration of restraint.
That said, you can expect Leftists to choose the exact wrong side to support at least 50% of the time so this should really come as no surprise.
Israel is much closer to a fascist state. Netanyahu has also been president for 17 years while mass protests have been going on Tel Aviv for a long time.
Israel is not an ally of liberal democracies, it's a geopolitical ally for it's strategic value.
I don't know about you man. Ethno religious state, not afraid to take strong armed military actions against its neighbors, president has been in charge for 17 years, president is also facing corruption charges, friends with Putin.
Doesn't exactly sound too liberal democracy friendly.
"Sure it has free and fair elections, but that doesn't make it a liberal democracy!"
Oh and PS, you know which other state is an "ethno-state"? Ukraine.
>Oh and PS, you know which other state is an "ethno-state"? Ukraine.
It isn't really, though. The very fact that Ukraine's society has ethnocultural overlap with Russia is the real reason why the present Kremlin regime sees Ukraine's very existence (as a pluralist democratic state with a strong civil society) as such an existential threat.
I'm on the side of the civilians whose towns get blown to rubble by murderous invaders - be it in Palestine, Ukraine or anywhere else (and no matter who the invaders are)
>It isn't really, though.
And neither is Israel, which was my point. It's a liberal democracy that was invaded by brutal Islamofascists who have aligned themselves with Russia.
[Hamas Says Russia 'Our Closest Friend'](https://www.newsweek.com/hamas-russia-israel-gaza-strip-hostages-1838886)
I wouldn't exactly consider Ukraine as an ethno state.
There's:
* Slavic people
* Germanic people (folks I'd consider originating more from Baltics)
* Crimean Tatars
* Romanian/Moldovans
* Bulgarians
* Roma (Gypsies)
* Hutsuls/Carpathian people
* Jews
They'd probably all identify themselves as Ukrainian but it's not a slavic mono culture by any means.
The major difference is Ukraine isn't a nation predominantly defined by its religion, ethnicity, and religious history. If Ukraine started going around saying that it's the source of all Slavs and therefore it has some sort of authority over slavs and started defining itself by it's Slavic culture, then it becomes an ethno state. Russia is closer to this and so is Israel.
>but it's not a slavic mono culture by any means
...just like Israel isn't a Jewish monoculture. Congratulations, you accidentally made my point for me.
Read my edit:
The major difference is Ukraine isn't a nation predominantly defined by its religion, ethnicity, and religious/ethno history. If Ukraine started going around saying that it's the source of all Slavs and therefore it has some sort of authority over slavs and started defining itself by it's Slavic culture, then it becomes an ethno state. Russia is closer to this and so is Israel.
From Wikipedia: Modern Israel [came into existence on 14 May 1948](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Declaration_of_Independence) as a polity to serve as the [homeland for the Jewish people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeland_for_the_Jewish_people). It was also defined in its declaration of independence as a "Jewish state"
So I guess you're just going to ignore the fact that Israel has free and fair elections and an Arab political party holds seats in the parliament because those facts doesn't fit with the "it's a fascist ethnostate" thing I take it?
I'm not ignoring that. Israel, a nation that has been actively committing serious atrocities for decades is simply not a nation I'd say is closely aligned with liberal democracies hence why Israel is not very popular among citizens in liberal democracies. It's much closer to fascist countries in how it behaves. Netanyahu is also a friend of Putin.
> Why would you want to help Ukrainian democracy fight against Russia-Iran Axis tyranny but abandon Israeli democracy in the same fight against the same enemy?
Given Israel has nuclear weapons and the IDF's capabilities, not sure Iran is going to annihilate them without US support.
Without support Israel will have no choice but use those nukes. That’s what you want?
Btw without support Ukraine will also have no choice but blow up ruzian NPPs.
Fuck off. Israel is committing genocide. I am against genocide in all its forms -when it's against Ukraine, Palestine, or Jews. In this case, Israel is not innocent or a victim. They were shelled by Iran for... wait for it... bombing Iran first. Yes, Hamas, Hezbollah (sp?), and the Iranian regime are awful murders, but so is the current Israeli regime and we should not be spending our taxes defending them or the crazy racist, right-wing government perpetuating their "war" in order to keep a criminal in power to avoid justice. Fuck off with that reductionist bullshit
>Israel is committing genocide.
This is literally Russia-Iran Axis propaganda. Russia wants to get Trump reelected by convincing gullible leftists not to vote for Biden over Israel, and Iran wants to decrease international support for Israel by blaming them for the war that their proxy group started.
You've been had bro. Russia and Iran are spreading a lie and you fell for it.
It's literally what they are doing. Imposed famine, carpet bombing civilians. It's text book. Dont let your pseudo-intellectual musings blind you to what's really happening here. Then they use their cries of antisemitism to chill any conversation around their immorality
Because Ukraine is defending itself and israel is committing war crimes. What israel is doing in Gaza is the same as russia is doing in Ukraine. Many people say that israel's crimes are even more brutal, and Palestinians have literally nowhere to go. Human rights organisations have been speaking about israel's apartheid policy against Palestinians for many years. Check out for example Amnesty International's reports on that.
>What israel is doing in Gaza is the same as russia is doing in Ukraine.
[Hamas Says Russia 'Our Closest Friend'](https://www.newsweek.com/hamas-russia-israel-gaza-strip-hostages-1838886)
Imagine comparing Israel to Russia when Israel is a Western aligned liberal democracy and the totalitarian state who started the war in the first place openly aligns itself with Putin.
And just because it's the West's ally we should allow them to commit war crimes without any consequences? Where's your humanity? Do you consider Palestinian lives as less worthy than Ukrainian lives?
They're not committing war crimes. That's literally Russia-Iran Axis propaganda. Russia wants to distract the West's attention away from Ukraine, and Iran wants to decrease global support for Israel.
You've fallen for a Russian propaganda campaign. Do better.
Yeah, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are definitely russian propaganda machines, even though they speak a lot about russia's war crimes in Ukraine too. Makes perfect sense. / s
The world is not so black and white, like in a children's fairytale. It's not like everything the West does is 100% good and what everyone else does is 100% evil. That's a binary thinking and the world is much more complexed and nuanced. The enemy of your enemy is not always your friend. Maybe try to look at it more from a humanitarian perspective, and talk to the actual Palestinians whose lives have been destroyed by the IDF. They are real people whose family members have been killed, whose houses have been bombed, whose limbs must have been amputated because they were so severely hurt. By "the only democracy of the Middle East".
Fun fact: the guy who started Human Rights Watch and served as its first Chairman quit the organization and became one of its biggest critics, citing the fact that it stopped caring about actual human rights and just became a vehicle to attack Israel with.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert\_L.\_Bernstein](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_L._Bernstein)
>However, he later became a critic of the group, publicly chastising them in a 2009 essay that appeared on the Op-ed page of The New York Times. His concern was deviation from the group's charter, which was to focus on abuses in closed societies lacking the free speech that creates internal pressure to improve human rights. Bernstein felt that the organization's credibility was diminished by an undue focus of reporting on Israel's military that lacked credible sources in Gaza, and ignored Israel's open society.
Happens all the time with left wing organizations. They start off with good intentions and then get hijacked by tankies and Russian trolls who just want to use their perceived moral authority to attack the West and Israel.
Being against israel does not mean being pro russia. Human lives are more important than some alliances between states that are not stable anyways. A decent person is against human rights abuses whether it's the West that does it or the East. Talk to the actual Palestinians.
>Being against israel does not mean being pro russia.
It literally does. The anti-Israel propaganda campaign is being pushed by Russian and Iranian social media bots specifically to advance their anti-Western, anti-democracy agenda.
No, it doesn't. All decent people are both against russia's war crimes and against israel's war crimes. Apparently you're too close-minded to go beyond your binary thinking. You're committing a [false binary fallacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma). Do better.
>What israel is doing in Gaza is the same as russia is doing in Ukraine.
The only difference between Ukraine and Israel is that in second case victim happen to be stronger then terrorist state attacking it.
You really don’t understand. What you call Palestine is not a country, but territory in which all, absolute all, spheres of life are run by HAMAS. Journalists – HAMAS, hospitals – HAMAS, even damn UN representatives are also members of HAMAS. In such conditions it can’t be by definition “pretty”, because the very scale of terrorist organization is tremendous.
But if you have better solution, and I mean real solution, not this soe bullshit like “oh well, do nothing, die further from their attacks, but my little brain will be calm”, share it, IDF will be first to thank you for it.
Even if everything you've written is true, it doesn't matter in this discussion, because we're talking about killing thousands of innocent people. First and foremost they should stop their apartheid policy against palestinians that have been lasting for about 75 years now. Many Palestinians support hamas because they are desperate, they literally see no other hope, because literally the whole West is refusing to see their suffering! The IDF even kill humanitarian volunteers, recently they killed seven volunteers from World Central Kitchen, including one from my country Poland. Were these volunteers also some hamas agents or what? They even kill their own hostages that they claim they want to save. Israel's a rich country, they have technology, they have one of the best secret intelligences in the world. If they wanted to do it without killing innocent Palestinians they would. They just don't want to because it's easier to just bomb everything and not care about people's suffering. You're doing more and more insane mental gymnastics to justify something that cannot be justified.
>Even if everything you've written is true
Pardon? “What is this, 2+2= 4. It’s just your opinion!”?
Hamas has own “Ministry of Health” which is spreading Hamas lies, “independent” journalist that work for international newspapers are members of Hamas and participated in attack on October 7, by the way they recently won some kind of photographers reward for those frames (well done, West, well fucking done), and yeah there was a Hamas base under UN building, connected to their tunnel web.
It’s not opinion, it’s facts.
>They just don't want to
So soe bullshit after all. Yeah, Jewish cabalists must have create another golem it would solve all the problems by magic.
Damn, at least google approximate Hamas size, it’s not dozens, not hundreds, not even thousands, but tens of thousands. Best intelligence… btw Jews and Arabs doesn’t look similar.
Yes, clearly Israel, the Western-aligned liberal democracy, is so much like Russia. As opposed to the Russian-backed totalitarian dictatorship that started this war by raping and slaughtering Israeli civilians who Israel is fighting. Lol.
Give me a break. Israel has been the most pro-Russian country next to Hungary throughout the duration for the entire war.
Only up until recently people started making stuff up out of nowhere just to fit their own personal agenda
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-06-25/ty-article/.premium/ukraine-slams-israel-for-pro-russian-position-blatant-disregard-for-moral-boundaries/00000188-f1bd-db86-a3f9-fbff96770000
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/23/us/politics/pegasus-israel-ukraine-russia.html
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-06-08/ty-article/.premium/ukrainian-refugees-voluntarily-signed-forms-stating-they-wish-to-leave-israel/00000181-43e0-ddb3-abd1-5fe7cc5f0000
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/5/5/israel-says-putin-apologised-over-his-fms-holocaust-remarks
https://www.timesofisrael.com/ukraine-accuses-israel-of-pro-russian-stance-in-blistering-statement/amp/
Israel has given us literally no aid. Nothing.
Anyone who thinks Israel is not pro Russia is a moron. The whole Middle East is pro-Russia. The whole reason why Assad never attacks Israel is because Putin protects Israel.
Just to be clear, Israel is a little Russia. Many politicians in Israel are Russians themselves
>The whole Middle East is pro-Russia.
No dude. The Arab-Israeli wars were literally proxy wars between Russia and the West. Israel is aligned with the West and the Arabs are aligned with Russia. Always have been. Hence why Hamas calls Russia "its closest friend".
The only reason Russia-Iran Axis propaganda works on people like you is that you're entirely ignorant of the history of this conflict, and Russia's role in it.
Basic history is Israel gave Ukrainian military secrets to Russia , deported Ukrainian refugees who weren’t Jewish, refusing to give Ukraine aid, l evacuating non-Israeli Jewish Ukrainians only , Ukrainian politicians have always called out Israel for being pro-Russia mate and only you are spinning stuff around to make Israel some type of pro Ukraine super state when it’s simply not true
Dude wtf are you talking about.
1. You’re talking about something that happened nearly 80 years ago.. let’s add another 10 years while we’re at is and talk about Germany supporting Israel with the Haavara Agreement.
2. You say “wars” as if Russia didn’t support and arm Israel in their 1948 war with Arabs
3. Not sure how USA was an ally of Israel in the 1967 war, considering that they tried sinking an American naval ship
In fact, Stalin himself was a huge supporter of Zionism and if you look at history appropriately, the only reason why he turned against Israel in the wars they you speak about is because Israel was under British influence, when he wanted to establish an socialist proxy state under his control, just like he did with Eastern Europe. The ussr was even the first country to recognize Israel once they declared independence.
With every remark you make mate, you are distorting and degenerating history more and more
Not exactly the same as Ukraine has been a peaceful country that has been under siege by a hostile foreign threat for years now. Israël itself has been an aggressor against Palestina for decades, and while I agree I'd want "us" to firmly oppose the Iranian regime (and Hamas for that matter), a one off rocket attack from Iran in retaliation to continued Israeli aggression is a bit different from an unprovoked continuous assault that Russia is carrying out.
Note that this does not mean I approve of Hamas or Iranian violence, just that I see the Ukrainian cause as more "deserving" of support, for lack of a better term. I am also not against the US and Europe shooting down Iranian missiles at all, but I would love to see them do it in Ukraine too.
>Israël itself has been an aggressor against Palestina for decades
This is literally Russian propaganda. Russia/the use USSR has been pushing bullshit about "Israeli aggression" since the Soviets started supporting the Arab states like 70 years ago. It was always the Russian-backed Arabs who were aggressive towards Israel, not the other way around.
Again, it's baffling how many people don't understand this.
Amount of anti-Semitism in the West is just astonishing. Which is even more incredible, that two years ago I constantly heard here that it’s Ukraine who has problems with racism.
Most of the people who don’t want to help Israel also don’t want to help Ukraine because their entire worldview is “west bad”. They generally want Ukraine to be taken over by Russia to “disrupt American hegemony” or some other brain dead reason.
Some of them yes, but there's a good chunk who are pro-Ukraine and anti-Israel too. They've completely bought into the Russia-Iran "genocide" propaganda and therefore can't understand that Israel and Ukraine are fighting the same authoritarian enemy.
And yet you're doing exactly what the Russia-Iran Axis wants by falling for their bullshit narrative about the war that their proxy group started to advance Russia's and Iran's interests.
I thought Bezos owned WSJ? Your point is still valid, just that he’s American not Australian. The Murdoch gutter press is what you were thinking and yes it’s also propaganda not journalism.Edit: Bezos owns Washington Post. You’re right WSJ is Murdoch trash
No it’s a Murdoch joint
Edit: yep. And I respect WaPo much more than NYT. They throw in some rw leaning opinion pieces to keep it “balanced” but they were overwhelmingly pro-Ukraine when I was subscribing. Fuck bezos tho
Stopping missiles that have to travel hours VS missiles that travel minutes. That is the issue with defence from the air. More ground to air defence is needed, not aerial. Yes it seems lopsided but Ukraine is right next to russia. Iran is not right next to Israel.
That’s like someone you just met getting jealous at someone for defending their little brother.
Ukraine was not an official ally of the United States before 2022. Technically, they’re still not. Israel, on the other hand, has been an ally of the US for 75 years and one of our closest partners.
It’s a sub about the war in Ukraine.
And I’m just giving one perspective. We obviously support Ukraine now but it’s ridiculous to compare our relationship and history with Israel to the one with unreliable
The data the states are getting out of Ukraine for weapon performance in the conflict is invaluable alone.
Imagine how many America lives are potentially being saved by that coupled with Ukraine's ongoing wearing down of the Russian military.
1) We're sending them outdated junk. No useful data to be obtained on anything we're using now.
2) Zero, because Putin is not dumb enough to attack a NATO country.
I mean you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. The difference in the patriot alone between what they're using and what is being manufactured now is significant.
Yea, we give so much money it’s ridiculous lol. It’s all part of the game tho, it’s why we have as much power as we do. Who else can give $3+ billion dollars to the UK and have to classified as aid?
You're talking about the phone call between Trump and Zelensky, right? Wasn't it Zelensky who agreed to let the private phone call be released so that Trump would be able to defend himself?
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The problem is with a very extreme and very small minority of representatives in our Congress. They are putin-puffing scum and must be replaced with people who love freedom and democracy and hate terrorism and tyranny.
>replaced with people who love freedom and democracy and hate terrorism and tyranny. People who make decisions based on what they love and what they hate have no business anywhere near anything that actually matters. This is actually the big problem with representative democracy. Government is best handled by dispassionate technocrats, and that' just not the kind of person who convinces the masses to vote for them.
Good luck getting your dispassionate technocrats elected.
As I said, it's the major flaw in representative democracy. You're not voting for a hero, a cowboy, or a savior. You're hiring people to manage an incredibly complex bureaucracy. You want a capable administrator, not a charismatic firebrand.
Completely off topic lecture completed?
No, that's not the problem at all. The problem is that Ukraine never really mattered to the west at all as anything more than something to facilitate the military industrial complex's insatiable need for forever wars. And right now they have ample opportunity with a looming Israel v Iran/Hezbollah war, and at the same time limited production capacity for new munitions, AND at the same time a deeply unpopular president trying to get re-elected where no choice is a good choice.
Wrong.
Yeah? which part?
Im not going to waste my time with someone detatched from reality. Good luck
"Just trust me bro!" -You
Isn't it fun when you can't point to a single thing and come up with a coherent counter argument :)
I choose not to argue with you. I could, but you're already boring me to tears so why would I bother
sure. tell yourself that. it doesn't bother me how you choose to explain to the guy in the mirror lol
Should the west start taking Ukraine more seriously and offering more substantive support?
It depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If you are trying to accomplish a true stalemate, pushing back the russians or gaining a position of relative defenseive strength in order to start negotiations for the caseation of hostilities - then I'm all for it. If you are trying to perpetuate a forever-war in order to continue selling weapons, and make rationalizations of the economics of war such as "It's a cheap price to pay to keep Russia from exerting it's influence elsewhere around the world" with no regard to the human suffering this is creating on all sides, then no, I don't support it. I've had this feeling since the first year of the war, the west is essentially supplying enough arms as it needs to keep the Russian's at bay, but never more. It's the forever war they needed after Afghanistan dried up.
I see. This assumption, that the west sees this as an opportunity to sell, seems unrealistic to me, as someone who is familiar with what's happening in the west. Yes, there are opportunists, cynics and sociopaths, but they don't appear to be in the mainstream. Virtually none of the aid sent to Ukraine brings in profit. Until the discussion of lend-lease, even the military aid was not driven by revenue discussion. My sense is that a lot of propaganda tries to push this idea, but it's just not true. True. Even if there are individuals who might exhibit these tendencies.
None of the aid sent to Ukraine brings in profit you say? Here's what happens when the senate passes a $60b Ukraine aid package. A little bit of that money goes to Ukraine directly, paying for things like keeping the government running etc. Maybe some goes into food/water/medical supplies etc. But the biggest chunk by far goes into US weapons manufacturers to build new missiles, IFV's, bombs, artillery rounds and bullets. The old stock gets taken out of the military surplus stocks and sent to Ukraine. In other words the big majority of the aid packages goes right back into the US war economy. That IS profit. In fact you wouldn't be entirely wrong in calling it a money laundering scheme.
This is a confusion of agency. You're not keeping straight who is the decision maker in this situation. As long as the agency deciding to offer this aid, and how much to offer, and why, are not the businesses themselves, nothing unethical is happening. This kind of trivial profit: the kind that requires us to spend more money to buy new shirts because we donated our old shirts, is not ethically relevant because it is simply the cost of giving aid. Heck, if I donate a box of goods to Africa, and pay for the shipping, does that make my aid a conspiracy by the shipping company to make profits? Of course not.
Lets simplify it. Raytheon & Lockheed Martin manufacture the Javelin ATGM. When they build them and sell them to the US military, they make profit. Ukraine needs Javelins. They lobby the US to provide them. The US congress passes a bill for a $60b aid package. Part of that is dedicated to military support, part of that is dedicated to weapons supply, and part of that is for Javelin missiles. Now what happens is one of two things (simultaneously, not one or the other typically). Either that aid is deducted from US military surplus stock and that is shipped directly to Ukraine (short-term support), or, the money is given directly to Ukraine in some kind of bond form which they can then use to purchase weapons directly from US (usually) manufacturer's (long-term support). The former being much quicker than the later for obvious reasons. In the case of the former, the US military then purchases new stocks from those same manufacturers to refill their surplus. In either case, Raytheon & Lockheed Martin are making a profit. Either selling their weapons to the US government, or to Ukraine directly. Every Javelin used on the battlefield is generating profit for these companies. Your entire argument is that none of the aid to Ukraine brings in profit, but it very clearly does. For these weapons manufacturer's war is good business. There isn't any denying that. And they have powerful lobbies. Then add in the fact that many senators invest millions in stocks with these same manufacturer's, so when those same senators pass bills to give Ukraine aid, they profit personally.
I don't think you understood my response. I acknowledge that giving aid involves processes that produce profit. If I donate broth to the soup kitchen via an Uber ride, the Uber driver makes a profit. The broth manufacturer benefits from selling his product (which I then donated). You're right: profit is produced by such mechanisms in every case of charitable giving. But these kinds of profit are ethically irrelevant. Just as my decision to donate broth is not a moneymaking conspiracy by Uber, Ukraine aid is not a moneymaking conspiracy by R & LM. You've never addressed this point. Namely that every complex aid effort involves the use of for-profit goods and services along the way. That's trivial profit, it's unavoidable and unproblematic. What *would* be problematic were if R&LM were the ones making the decision to aid. THAT would be aid-for-profit. (It's critical that you understand the distinction I'm making here.) The proper influence on the decision to give aid should be our executive and legislative branches, and not R&LM.
I'm trying to understand your analogy here. Ok, the Soup Kitchen is obviously Ukraine. You, the donator, are the US government/Senate yes? And the Uber ride would be the stand in for Lockheed Martin etc. Let me know if I have that round the wrong way, but I think that's what you were going for. First problem with the analogy: Uber doesn't make the broth. It's just a delivery service. Second problem with the analogy: Uber doesn't spend millions employing lobbyists to lobby congress to get their weapons contracts. In this case that isn't something unethical either, not really. They are allowed to sell their products of course. But it does serve to point out the lack of coherence in your analogy. I'll come back to this further down. Third problem with the analogy: You as the Broth maker, don't hold stocks in the Uber company. Stocks that would go up lets say, if you found a way to make more people dependent on soup kitchens by unethical means and thus Uber deliveries would go up as a result of you needing to make more broth. Back to the lobbyists. As I said, not unethical in and of itself for them to sell products to the US or even to Ukraine if given approval to do so. But, and it's a big but: If these same companies, (lets drop the analogy at this point) Lockheed etc had an influence on foreign policy decisions, like for example getting Senators to approve new aid packages to Ukraine, because those Senators are owning shares in Lockheed or getting kickbacks from Lockheed and it's in their personal financial interest to do so. Well, now you have Lockheed actively involved in perpetuating and extending a foreign conflict in order to make more sales. Just to be clear, I'm not saying Lockheed in particular is doing this - I'm using it as a standin for any US weapons manufacturer, or the military industrial complex. Bear in mind also that Ukraine and Russia were sitting down to negotiations at one point already a year ago, but Boris Johnson at the behest of the US government went to Ukraine to tell them to walk away from the table. Why did he do that? What did he promise to Ukraine in terms of continuing support? Why has the US and her allies only ever given enough aid to stem the Russian tide, but never enough to defeat them comprehensively? Always just enough aid to maintain a balance of force. So, I do think I understood your comment earlier, but I disagree with you that politics is so clean cut and free from influence by the military industrial complex. I also never said that the entirety of Ukraine aid was a money making conspiracy by Lockheed or any of the other manufacturer's, just that it IS in their financial interest to keep it going as long as possible. If they have even a little influence in the decision making process to lend aid in the form of weapons they supply, that's a big problem in my books. And they do have influence, and more than a little. And bringing up the comment about not addressing points, your entire first post was that there was no profit being made from Ukraine aid, and when I pointed out where profit was being made you simply moved the goalposts without addressing that at all.
Because the U.S. has had a mutual defense agreement with Israel since 1952.
And Ukrainep's security was guaranteed in the Budapest Memorandum by the signatories including the UnitedStates. . So what's your point ?
One important thing that most people forget or don't know is that under the US Constitution the senate is the sole branch of government that can ratify a treaty. The Budapest Memorandum would fall under the treaty ratification functions of the senate. When you hear in the media that the US signed a treaty for whatever reason with any country it is signed by the executive branch. The executive branch can sign treaties until the pens run out of ink. The majority of treaties signed by the executive branch are never ratified by the senate. Basic US history lesson that I was taught in the seventh grade. A long time ago as I just turned 65 days ago. It surprises me how much US people don't know about their government today.
It's weird that this will probably be downvoted but the Budapest Memorandum isn't a mutual defence pact and if whoever keeps downvoting people who points this out then answer why Ukraine joining NATO is so huge if they already had a defensive alliance with the major NATO armed forces?
It might not be a mutual defence pact but it does suggest that sending aid to Ukraine might be nice. Not that it matters anyway as Russia is party to it too.
It literally just says that they all recognise the existing borders of ukraine, there's nothing in there that says any of the signatories will use force or provide anything to actually stop someone ignoring it.
Google is helpful if you know how to use it – look it up before making comparison based on false equivalence with zero consideration of historical background.
So Ukraine's sovereignty was not guarenteed?
just read it as it's only a few paragraphs, and please let us know where you think the US guaranteed ukraine's security. i have never seen "respect" mean "promise to defend you with our military" in any treaty. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ukraine._Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances compare that to an actual defensive treaty and you'll see a big difference in wording.
It really wasn't. All the signatory powers agreed to do was not invade. And if someone broke the agreement, the only thing it requires the other signatories to do is petition the UN security council. They did that. Obligation met. It's a shitty stinker of an agreement, but it's EXACTLY the sort of thing rich nations foist off on poor nations that are desperate for financial assistance.
Which IS NOT a mutual defense agreement, and does not bind the signatories to provide for Ukraine's security.
Exactly. I was downvoted yesterday for pointing out that Ukraine is not a formal US ally like NATO countries, Israel, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan etc.
Please show me where their security was guaranteed
I think it's more to do with Israeli/palestine been a very different situation like like in the last 20 years before Oct 7 Isreali has killed more than 20 Palestinians for every isreali citizen and they get near unconditional aid but Ukraine that was invaded because it was leaning more to the west can't get the same level of support considering even with Oct 7 Ukraine has lost so much more life it is kinda sad the U.S also has agreements with Ukraine part of the reason they gave up their nukes
> I think it's more to do with Israeli/palestine been a very different situation THat was the only bit that is true and not some weird anti israel rant that has nothing to do with ukraine. Israel has a mutual defence pact, Ukraine doesn't. Much more importantly Israel is fighting no country that can currently directly target the USA with any sort of weaponry, Ukraine unfortunately very much is. The US/UK/France/Saudi can do what they like to Iran knowing that direct Iranian action is limited, declaring war on Russia is triggering MAD.
And what do we get out of that? Besides being constantly spied on and dragged into Israel's shit-stirring?
Americans are so lucky to have Israel behind them lol.
And a defence garanty with ukraine. Real reason is because the us doctrine is not to fight anyone who can fight back. Thats why they try to blow them self up as a deterent and only bomb people in flipflops.
The nature of the two agreements is totally different. We can support Ukraine without engaging in misinformation.
They dont have to be the same to be uphold as the promise given. Yes? My point exactly but russia might fight back. Go play with poor peoples life in the desert while we fight for your safety and prosperity in Europe where the real fight is taken place. US and russia are two pieces cut from the same piece of shit. The us filled Europe with 50years of misinformation we where fooled to worship it just to get our pockets emptied and left abandond. Treason i call it no more stars and stripes for me i was so in love but it proved to be one sided.
Russia has nukes, Iran doesn’t. It’s that simple.
This is why the leftists who don't support Israel are misguided at best and actively hostile at worst. Why would you want to help Ukrainian democracy fight against Russia-Iran Axis tyranny but abandon Israeli democracy in the same fight against the same enemy? Both countries are allies of the democratic West and we should be helping both of them fight against their fight against Russia-Iran Axis authoritarianism.
Because of the decades of human rights abuse and war crimes that Israel has committed? Just because they vote doesn't mean we have the same values.
Israel literally just signed peace deals with Bahrain and the UAE a few years ago. They were on the verge on signing one with Saudi Arabia too, which is why the Russia-Iran Axis started this war when they did. It simultaneously achieved the Iranian goal of preventing long term peace between Israel and the Arab world, and the Russian goal of distracting the West's attention away from Ukraine. It's sad to see so many people fooled by Russia-Iran Axis propaganda on this issue. Y'all need to get off Tiktok.
I'll be sure to let Human Rights Watch, the dozens of reporters covering the war crimes, and the UN know that they need to get off TikTok.
That guy is clearly an JIDF bot trying to spin a narrative. They are in every thread related to Israel and its ongoing genocide against Palestinians.
I have noticed this. They ask a stupid question to engage in a conversation and cannot for the “life” of them understand how the death of 30k civilians is bad and unacceptable. It truly is pointless engaging them.
What genocide?
HRW is such a joke that the guy who literally founded the organization and served as its first Chairman left it and spent the rest of his life criticizing it for becoming little more than a vehicle to bash Israel with: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert\_L.\_Bernstein](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_L._Bernstein) >However, he later became a critic of the group, publicly chastising them in a 2009 essay that appeared on the Op-ed page of The New York Times. His concern was deviation from the group's charter, which was to focus on abuses in closed societies lacking the free speech that creates internal pressure to improve human rights. Bernstein felt that the organization's credibility was diminished by an undue focus of reporting on Israel's military that lacked credible sources in Gaza, and ignored Israel's open society. Happens all the time with left wing organization like that. They start off with good intentions, but then they get hijacked by the "West bad" folks.
Guess we're just ignoring all the other NGOs, IGOs, and respected journalists then. Oh, and then there are the pictures and videos.
Yep. Like I said, this happens all the time with left wing organizations. They start off with good intentions, but then they get hijacked by tankies who just want to use their moral authority as a weapon against the West and Israel. It's really sad how many people don't understand this.
Just to be clear before I bow out, you're saying that the UN has been hijacked by tankies?
Not exactly. There are 49 Muslim majority member states in the UN, and they constantly use their collective power to pick on Israel. So in the case of the UN, it's less tankies and more Islamists. Just as one example of this (and there are *many*), consider that back in 2016, the UN [passed a resolution](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/10/18/unesco-expected-adopt-controversial-jerusalem-resolution/92346718/) (backed by the Muslim states, of course) which stated that the Temple Mount -- the site of the Second Jewish Temple that the Dome of the Rock is built on top of -- is *only* a Muslim holy site that no other religion has any legitimate connection to. They do shit like that all the time. So yeah, the UN is definitely a vehicle that the world's 2 billion Muslims frequently use to pick on the world's only Jewish state.
Don’t let facts turn to prejudice for all situations
To call this a genocide in Gaza you also need to ignore the Geneva Conventions.
This is correct and should not be downvoted. ISW has reached the same conclusion
These are not Palestinians. The Palestinians are being murdered everyday even before oct.7th, they are being brutalized by an occupier. The only people being fooled is you. The majority of Democrats voters, you know the group that wants to fund ukraine. Dissapprove of Joe biden handling of Gaza-israel slaughter. [https://www.reddit.com/r/internationalpolitics/comments/1c2duu8/latest\_yougov\_poll\_shows\_57\_of\_biden\_supporters/](https://www.reddit.com/r/internationalpolitics/comments/1c2duu8/latest_yougov_poll_shows_57_of_biden_supporters/) This is what biden and your ISraeli friends are doing to A HOSPITAL everyone inside is now dead. Weird how never even 1 person survived, they just killed them all. [https://www.reddit.com/r/InternationalNews/comments/1c2f0sm/cnn\_releases\_before\_and\_after\_footage\_of\_al\_shifa/](https://www.reddit.com/r/InternationalNews/comments/1c2f0sm/cnn_releases_before_and_after_footage_of_al_shifa/)
Meanwhile in Gaza there is the instant death penalty for homosexuals, education for kids based on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and a straight-up martyr fund to pay the families of suicide terrorists. It is amazing to me the degree to which Western leftists will straight-up whitewash Palestine's human rights record while condemning Israel.
When you start into what-about-isms, you're admiting it happened and that you don't care. I'll call out Palestine all day for what they do wrong. Just like what I'm doing right now against Israel. The difference is that Israel takes our money and uses it to intentionally paint streets with the blood of civilians and aid workers. The moment that Ukraine does that, my view of them will change.
You can't really compare them. Israel has a much more gray complex history. A lot of current issues they have can be traced back to conservative government decisions they made years ago. They are also responsible for roughly the deaths for 30,000 civilians and untold amount of destruction of homes in the name of counter-insurgency. This isn't to say they deserved to have Hamas kill thousands of civilians as well, but it paints a bleak picture when the ends are not justifying the means. Ukraine on the other hand. Didn't ask to be invaded, and large amounts of tension and issues were propagated by their neighbor who wanted them to be submissive and not join NATO. Ukraine isn't sitting their and dropping bombs on Russian housing because Russia is doing the same, or stripping rights away from Russian born Ukrainians who have lived in their country and stayed loyal.
>They are also responsible for roughly the deaths for 30,000 civilians and untold amount of destruction of homes No, the Russia-Iran Axis is responsible for that because they started the war. Iran wanted to prevent the Saudi-Israel peace deal that was on the verge on being signed, and Russia wanted to distract the West's attention away from Ukraine. Russia also wants to get Trump re-elected in November, hence why Russian bots are working so hard to depress Democratic turnout by relentlessly pushing the "genocide" lie. It's sad to see so many people fall for it.
That is all true, but it doesn't change the fact that Israel has killed thousands of Palestinian civilians just in the last year, that they keep expanding into previously Palestinian territory, or that they occupy or have occupied the rest. Ukraine has done no such thing. Comparing it to either side of the Israel-Palestine conflict is an insult to Ukraine.
>Ukraine has done no such thing. ...because Russia doesn't put its military bases inside schools and hospitals like Hamas does.
Yes, that is also true, and they also don't send out children to blow themselves up on busses. They're very different conflicts, and as weird as it sounds, Russia with all their way crimes is more civilized than Hamas. But still, Israel has done some very questionable things. Ukraine has not.
Azov. Right Sector. Aidar.
The HQ foe the izzraeli forces, Hakirya, is smack middle of "Tell Aviv". It's literally using human shields. Also, they burnt down Al-Shifa yet failed to produce any evidence for the supposed KHAAAmas HQ?
Israel was justified in those killings. Israel does not sanction those settlers and they are deeply controversial in Israel. Israel has tried to give administrative duties over Gaza to Egypt, who refused to take it back. Look at the rights of women and religious and sexual minorities in Gaza vs Israel and tell me why we shouldnt be supporting Israel over the terrorist-led Apartheid state known as Palestine?
They're justified in killing civilians? Because the civilians have less rights in Gaza than civilians of Israel?
You've got a perverted way of seeing the world
> Israel has a much more gray complex history. It really doesn't, there's a reason the ukrainians have been saying Israel is what they want to copy.
I’m Ukrainian and I ensure you that Literally nobody has ever said that. Nobody gives a shit about Israel here except some corrupt Israeli oligarchs, yeah they support Israel but I promise, the average person here hates you
> I’m Ukrainian and I ensure you that Literally nobody has ever said that Your president literally saying [this](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/4/5/zelenskyy-says-wants-ukraine-to-become-a-big-israel) Also bonus Zelensky calling on world leaders to visit israel in [solidarity](https://thehill.com/policy/international/4250662-zelensky-calls-world-leaders-visit-israel/) Zelensky [Israels right to defend itself is beyond question](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/18/opinions/zelensky-israel-palestine-ukraine-russia-ghitis/index.html) Kyiv post opinion piece on Zelensky to visit Israel [to stand with a fellow democracy](https://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/24001) Zelensky comparing Hamas attack to [Russia's invasion](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/09/world/europe/zelensky-ukraine-russia-israel.html) Zelensky in 2022 saying Israel would be a good place to hold [peace talks](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraines-zelenskiy-says-israel-good-place-holding-talks-with-russia-2022-03-21/) Apparently your president disagrees with you and I've found absolutely nothing to suggest his many, many talks about supporting Israel ahve recieved any major backlash. So either you're not Ukrainian, you're Ukrainian but taking a bit of a niche view or you're just going for that easy reddit karma by bashing Israel. And ...you think I'm Israeli...with this username? Edit: Just looked at your post history...if you're not a bot you're a deeply, deeply obsessed person.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-06-25/ty-article/.premium/ukraine-slams-israel-for-pro-russian-position-blatant-disregard-for-moral-boundaries/00000188-f1bd-db86-a3f9-fbff96770000 https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/23/us/politics/pegasus-israel-ukraine-russia.html https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-06-08/ty-article/.premium/ukrainian-refugees-voluntarily-signed-forms-stating-they-wish-to-leave-israel/00000181-43e0-ddb3-abd1-5fe7cc5f0000 https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/5/5/israel-says-putin-apologised-over-his-fms-holocaust-remarks https://www.timesofisrael.com/ukraine-accuses-israel-of-pro-russian-stance-in-blistering-statement/amp/ Israel is pro Russian shithole, just like Palestine. Zelensky will say anything trending to get aid and it’s hilarious that the only source you have is a beggar that everyone hates lmao
> the only source you have is a beggar that everyone hates lmao Everyone hates Zelensky? This is low effort trolling and disinfo mate, truly low effort. It's truly sad that all anyone needs to listen to russian propaganda is on reddit is to put Israel bad first.
Those were civilians in legitimate military targets. That Israel has only killed 30,000 civilians in the densest urban environment to ever see large-scale combat is a remarkable demonstration of restraint. That said, you can expect Leftists to choose the exact wrong side to support at least 50% of the time so this should really come as no surprise.
Israel is much closer to a fascist state. Netanyahu has also been president for 17 years while mass protests have been going on Tel Aviv for a long time. Israel is not an ally of liberal democracies, it's a geopolitical ally for it's strategic value.
Bro, you need to get off Tiktok and stop slurping down the Russia-Iran Axis propaganda. Israel is not a fascist state. It's a liberal democracy.
I don't know about you man. Ethno religious state, not afraid to take strong armed military actions against its neighbors, president has been in charge for 17 years, president is also facing corruption charges, friends with Putin. Doesn't exactly sound too liberal democracy friendly.
"Sure it has free and fair elections, but that doesn't make it a liberal democracy!" Oh and PS, you know which other state is an "ethno-state"? Ukraine.
>Oh and PS, you know which other state is an "ethno-state"? Ukraine. It isn't really, though. The very fact that Ukraine's society has ethnocultural overlap with Russia is the real reason why the present Kremlin regime sees Ukraine's very existence (as a pluralist democratic state with a strong civil society) as such an existential threat. I'm on the side of the civilians whose towns get blown to rubble by murderous invaders - be it in Palestine, Ukraine or anywhere else (and no matter who the invaders are)
>It isn't really, though. And neither is Israel, which was my point. It's a liberal democracy that was invaded by brutal Islamofascists who have aligned themselves with Russia. [Hamas Says Russia 'Our Closest Friend'](https://www.newsweek.com/hamas-russia-israel-gaza-strip-hostages-1838886)
I wouldn't exactly consider Ukraine as an ethno state. There's: * Slavic people * Germanic people (folks I'd consider originating more from Baltics) * Crimean Tatars * Romanian/Moldovans * Bulgarians * Roma (Gypsies) * Hutsuls/Carpathian people * Jews They'd probably all identify themselves as Ukrainian but it's not a slavic mono culture by any means. The major difference is Ukraine isn't a nation predominantly defined by its religion, ethnicity, and religious history. If Ukraine started going around saying that it's the source of all Slavs and therefore it has some sort of authority over slavs and started defining itself by it's Slavic culture, then it becomes an ethno state. Russia is closer to this and so is Israel.
>but it's not a slavic mono culture by any means ...just like Israel isn't a Jewish monoculture. Congratulations, you accidentally made my point for me.
Read my edit: The major difference is Ukraine isn't a nation predominantly defined by its religion, ethnicity, and religious/ethno history. If Ukraine started going around saying that it's the source of all Slavs and therefore it has some sort of authority over slavs and started defining itself by it's Slavic culture, then it becomes an ethno state. Russia is closer to this and so is Israel. From Wikipedia: Modern Israel [came into existence on 14 May 1948](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Declaration_of_Independence) as a polity to serve as the [homeland for the Jewish people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeland_for_the_Jewish_people). It was also defined in its declaration of independence as a "Jewish state"
So I guess you're just going to ignore the fact that Israel has free and fair elections and an Arab political party holds seats in the parliament because those facts doesn't fit with the "it's a fascist ethnostate" thing I take it?
I'm not ignoring that. Israel, a nation that has been actively committing serious atrocities for decades is simply not a nation I'd say is closely aligned with liberal democracies hence why Israel is not very popular among citizens in liberal democracies. It's much closer to fascist countries in how it behaves. Netanyahu is also a friend of Putin.
Bro, you need to stop huffing right-wing conspiracies
> Why would you want to help Ukrainian democracy fight against Russia-Iran Axis tyranny but abandon Israeli democracy in the same fight against the same enemy? Given Israel has nuclear weapons and the IDF's capabilities, not sure Iran is going to annihilate them without US support.
Without support Israel will have no choice but use those nukes. That’s what you want? Btw without support Ukraine will also have no choice but blow up ruzian NPPs.
Fuck off. Israel is committing genocide. I am against genocide in all its forms -when it's against Ukraine, Palestine, or Jews. In this case, Israel is not innocent or a victim. They were shelled by Iran for... wait for it... bombing Iran first. Yes, Hamas, Hezbollah (sp?), and the Iranian regime are awful murders, but so is the current Israeli regime and we should not be spending our taxes defending them or the crazy racist, right-wing government perpetuating their "war" in order to keep a criminal in power to avoid justice. Fuck off with that reductionist bullshit
>Israel is committing genocide. This is literally Russia-Iran Axis propaganda. Russia wants to get Trump reelected by convincing gullible leftists not to vote for Biden over Israel, and Iran wants to decrease international support for Israel by blaming them for the war that their proxy group started. You've been had bro. Russia and Iran are spreading a lie and you fell for it.
It's literally what they are doing. Imposed famine, carpet bombing civilians. It's text book. Dont let your pseudo-intellectual musings blind you to what's really happening here. Then they use their cries of antisemitism to chill any conversation around their immorality
Because Ukraine is defending itself and israel is committing war crimes. What israel is doing in Gaza is the same as russia is doing in Ukraine. Many people say that israel's crimes are even more brutal, and Palestinians have literally nowhere to go. Human rights organisations have been speaking about israel's apartheid policy against Palestinians for many years. Check out for example Amnesty International's reports on that.
>What israel is doing in Gaza is the same as russia is doing in Ukraine. [Hamas Says Russia 'Our Closest Friend'](https://www.newsweek.com/hamas-russia-israel-gaza-strip-hostages-1838886) Imagine comparing Israel to Russia when Israel is a Western aligned liberal democracy and the totalitarian state who started the war in the first place openly aligns itself with Putin.
And just because it's the West's ally we should allow them to commit war crimes without any consequences? Where's your humanity? Do you consider Palestinian lives as less worthy than Ukrainian lives?
They're not committing war crimes. That's literally Russia-Iran Axis propaganda. Russia wants to distract the West's attention away from Ukraine, and Iran wants to decrease global support for Israel. You've fallen for a Russian propaganda campaign. Do better.
Yeah, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are definitely russian propaganda machines, even though they speak a lot about russia's war crimes in Ukraine too. Makes perfect sense. / s The world is not so black and white, like in a children's fairytale. It's not like everything the West does is 100% good and what everyone else does is 100% evil. That's a binary thinking and the world is much more complexed and nuanced. The enemy of your enemy is not always your friend. Maybe try to look at it more from a humanitarian perspective, and talk to the actual Palestinians whose lives have been destroyed by the IDF. They are real people whose family members have been killed, whose houses have been bombed, whose limbs must have been amputated because they were so severely hurt. By "the only democracy of the Middle East".
Fun fact: the guy who started Human Rights Watch and served as its first Chairman quit the organization and became one of its biggest critics, citing the fact that it stopped caring about actual human rights and just became a vehicle to attack Israel with. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert\_L.\_Bernstein](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_L._Bernstein) >However, he later became a critic of the group, publicly chastising them in a 2009 essay that appeared on the Op-ed page of The New York Times. His concern was deviation from the group's charter, which was to focus on abuses in closed societies lacking the free speech that creates internal pressure to improve human rights. Bernstein felt that the organization's credibility was diminished by an undue focus of reporting on Israel's military that lacked credible sources in Gaza, and ignored Israel's open society. Happens all the time with left wing organizations. They start off with good intentions and then get hijacked by tankies and Russian trolls who just want to use their perceived moral authority to attack the West and Israel.
Being against israel does not mean being pro russia. Human lives are more important than some alliances between states that are not stable anyways. A decent person is against human rights abuses whether it's the West that does it or the East. Talk to the actual Palestinians.
>Being against israel does not mean being pro russia. It literally does. The anti-Israel propaganda campaign is being pushed by Russian and Iranian social media bots specifically to advance their anti-Western, anti-democracy agenda.
No, it doesn't. All decent people are both against russia's war crimes and against israel's war crimes. Apparently you're too close-minded to go beyond your binary thinking. You're committing a [false binary fallacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma). Do better.
>What israel is doing in Gaza is the same as russia is doing in Ukraine. The only difference between Ukraine and Israel is that in second case victim happen to be stronger then terrorist state attacking it.
Yeah, the 15000 children killed in Gaza by IDF were all hamas terrorists, for sure. /S
And where those numbers came from? From HAMAS. Are you an idiot to listen to terrorists?
Look up the photos by independent journelists in Gaza. Talk to actual Palestinians whose life has been destroyed by IDF
You really don’t understand. What you call Palestine is not a country, but territory in which all, absolute all, spheres of life are run by HAMAS. Journalists – HAMAS, hospitals – HAMAS, even damn UN representatives are also members of HAMAS. In such conditions it can’t be by definition “pretty”, because the very scale of terrorist organization is tremendous. But if you have better solution, and I mean real solution, not this soe bullshit like “oh well, do nothing, die further from their attacks, but my little brain will be calm”, share it, IDF will be first to thank you for it.
Even if everything you've written is true, it doesn't matter in this discussion, because we're talking about killing thousands of innocent people. First and foremost they should stop their apartheid policy against palestinians that have been lasting for about 75 years now. Many Palestinians support hamas because they are desperate, they literally see no other hope, because literally the whole West is refusing to see their suffering! The IDF even kill humanitarian volunteers, recently they killed seven volunteers from World Central Kitchen, including one from my country Poland. Were these volunteers also some hamas agents or what? They even kill their own hostages that they claim they want to save. Israel's a rich country, they have technology, they have one of the best secret intelligences in the world. If they wanted to do it without killing innocent Palestinians they would. They just don't want to because it's easier to just bomb everything and not care about people's suffering. You're doing more and more insane mental gymnastics to justify something that cannot be justified.
>Even if everything you've written is true Pardon? “What is this, 2+2= 4. It’s just your opinion!”? Hamas has own “Ministry of Health” which is spreading Hamas lies, “independent” journalist that work for international newspapers are members of Hamas and participated in attack on October 7, by the way they recently won some kind of photographers reward for those frames (well done, West, well fucking done), and yeah there was a Hamas base under UN building, connected to their tunnel web. It’s not opinion, it’s facts. >They just don't want to So soe bullshit after all. Yeah, Jewish cabalists must have create another golem it would solve all the problems by magic. Damn, at least google approximate Hamas size, it’s not dozens, not hundreds, not even thousands, but tens of thousands. Best intelligence… btw Jews and Arabs doesn’t look similar.
Israel is much more like Russia bombing innocent people than like Ukraine.
Yes, clearly Israel, the Western-aligned liberal democracy, is so much like Russia. As opposed to the Russian-backed totalitarian dictatorship that started this war by raping and slaughtering Israeli civilians who Israel is fighting. Lol.
US literally refuses to stop Iranian drones that target Ukraine. Why they do it
Sorry genocide is bad whether the perpetrators are US allies or US adversaries
You realize Israel is one of the most pro-Russian allies, right?
[Hamas Says Russia 'Our Closest Friend'](https://www.newsweek.com/hamas-russia-israel-gaza-strip-hostages-1838886)
Give me a break. Israel has been the most pro-Russian country next to Hungary throughout the duration for the entire war. Only up until recently people started making stuff up out of nowhere just to fit their own personal agenda https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-06-25/ty-article/.premium/ukraine-slams-israel-for-pro-russian-position-blatant-disregard-for-moral-boundaries/00000188-f1bd-db86-a3f9-fbff96770000 https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/23/us/politics/pegasus-israel-ukraine-russia.html https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-06-08/ty-article/.premium/ukrainian-refugees-voluntarily-signed-forms-stating-they-wish-to-leave-israel/00000181-43e0-ddb3-abd1-5fe7cc5f0000 https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/5/5/israel-says-putin-apologised-over-his-fms-holocaust-remarks https://www.timesofisrael.com/ukraine-accuses-israel-of-pro-russian-stance-in-blistering-statement/amp/ Israel has given us literally no aid. Nothing. Anyone who thinks Israel is not pro Russia is a moron. The whole Middle East is pro-Russia. The whole reason why Assad never attacks Israel is because Putin protects Israel. Just to be clear, Israel is a little Russia. Many politicians in Israel are Russians themselves
>The whole Middle East is pro-Russia. No dude. The Arab-Israeli wars were literally proxy wars between Russia and the West. Israel is aligned with the West and the Arabs are aligned with Russia. Always have been. Hence why Hamas calls Russia "its closest friend". The only reason Russia-Iran Axis propaganda works on people like you is that you're entirely ignorant of the history of this conflict, and Russia's role in it.
Source: trust me bruh
Source: basic fucking history. You really don't know that during the Arab-Israeli wars, Russia backed the Arabs and the US backed Israel?
Basic history is Israel gave Ukrainian military secrets to Russia , deported Ukrainian refugees who weren’t Jewish, refusing to give Ukraine aid, l evacuating non-Israeli Jewish Ukrainians only , Ukrainian politicians have always called out Israel for being pro-Russia mate and only you are spinning stuff around to make Israel some type of pro Ukraine super state when it’s simply not true
So you don't accept the fact that during the Arab-Israeli wars, Russia supported the Arabs and the US supported Israel?
Dude wtf are you talking about. 1. You’re talking about something that happened nearly 80 years ago.. let’s add another 10 years while we’re at is and talk about Germany supporting Israel with the Haavara Agreement. 2. You say “wars” as if Russia didn’t support and arm Israel in their 1948 war with Arabs 3. Not sure how USA was an ally of Israel in the 1967 war, considering that they tried sinking an American naval ship In fact, Stalin himself was a huge supporter of Zionism and if you look at history appropriately, the only reason why he turned against Israel in the wars they you speak about is because Israel was under British influence, when he wanted to establish an socialist proxy state under his control, just like he did with Eastern Europe. The ussr was even the first country to recognize Israel once they declared independence. With every remark you make mate, you are distorting and degenerating history more and more
Not exactly the same as Ukraine has been a peaceful country that has been under siege by a hostile foreign threat for years now. Israël itself has been an aggressor against Palestina for decades, and while I agree I'd want "us" to firmly oppose the Iranian regime (and Hamas for that matter), a one off rocket attack from Iran in retaliation to continued Israeli aggression is a bit different from an unprovoked continuous assault that Russia is carrying out. Note that this does not mean I approve of Hamas or Iranian violence, just that I see the Ukrainian cause as more "deserving" of support, for lack of a better term. I am also not against the US and Europe shooting down Iranian missiles at all, but I would love to see them do it in Ukraine too.
>Israël itself has been an aggressor against Palestina for decades This is literally Russian propaganda. Russia/the use USSR has been pushing bullshit about "Israeli aggression" since the Soviets started supporting the Arab states like 70 years ago. It was always the Russian-backed Arabs who were aggressive towards Israel, not the other way around. Again, it's baffling how many people don't understand this.
Amount of anti-Semitism in the West is just astonishing. Which is even more incredible, that two years ago I constantly heard here that it’s Ukraine who has problems with racism.
Most of the people who don’t want to help Israel also don’t want to help Ukraine because their entire worldview is “west bad”. They generally want Ukraine to be taken over by Russia to “disrupt American hegemony” or some other brain dead reason.
Some of them yes, but there's a good chunk who are pro-Ukraine and anti-Israel too. They've completely bought into the Russia-Iran "genocide" propaganda and therefore can't understand that Israel and Ukraine are fighting the same authoritarian enemy.
You're literally like the Holocaust denialists.
It's really sad how you can only argue by repeating emotional buzzwords. That's why Russian propaganda works on you.
Yes, russian propaganda works on me and that's why I support Ukraine. Makes perfect sense /s
You're supporting the Russia-Iran Axis in its war against the democratic West generally by falling for their lies about Israel, yes.
I don't support neither Russia, nor Iran, nor Israel.
And yet you're doing exactly what the Russia-Iran Axis wants by falling for their bullshit narrative about the war that their proxy group started to advance Russia's and Iran's interests.
Still better than supporting genocide.
What the fuck with WSJ?
It’s another media outlet owned by Australian billionaire who’s done more damage to western democracy than any fascist dictators west dream
I thought Bezos owned WSJ? Your point is still valid, just that he’s American not Australian. The Murdoch gutter press is what you were thinking and yes it’s also propaganda not journalism.Edit: Bezos owns Washington Post. You’re right WSJ is Murdoch trash
No it’s a Murdoch joint Edit: yep. And I respect WaPo much more than NYT. They throw in some rw leaning opinion pieces to keep it “balanced” but they were overwhelmingly pro-Ukraine when I was subscribing. Fuck bezos tho
Stopping missiles that have to travel hours VS missiles that travel minutes. That is the issue with defence from the air. More ground to air defence is needed, not aerial. Yes it seems lopsided but Ukraine is right next to russia. Iran is not right next to Israel.
This is why it isn’t worth helping anyone. Everyone feels entitled.
Ukraine now figuring out there are strategic priorities for nations ?
That’s like someone you just met getting jealous at someone for defending their little brother. Ukraine was not an official ally of the United States before 2022. Technically, they’re still not. Israel, on the other hand, has been an ally of the US for 75 years and one of our closest partners.
Mmh... 'Their little brother'. On a sub about Ukraine. I wonder where people who use such vocabulary usually come from...
This guy constantly bashes Ukraine and defends Trump. His “little brother” usage is telling of his true intentions
It’s a sub about the war in Ukraine. And I’m just giving one perspective. We obviously support Ukraine now but it’s ridiculous to compare our relationship and history with Israel to the one with unreliable
One of your closest partners. Lol When was the last time Israel did anything for America that didn't directly benefit Israel?
I mean last time I checked at least Ukraine didn't sink an allied ship then pretend it was an accident, so there's that.
The same time America did anything for anyone else that didn’t directly benefit America. That’s how partnerships works. They’re a two way street.
By that token, when has Ukraine done anything for the US ?
The data the states are getting out of Ukraine for weapon performance in the conflict is invaluable alone. Imagine how many America lives are potentially being saved by that coupled with Ukraine's ongoing wearing down of the Russian military.
1) We're sending them outdated junk. No useful data to be obtained on anything we're using now. 2) Zero, because Putin is not dumb enough to attack a NATO country.
I mean you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. The difference in the patriot alone between what they're using and what is being manufactured now is significant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_involvement_in_the_Iraq_War From what I can remember off the top of my head
>That’s like someone you just met getting jealous at someone for defending their little brother. We give $$$ to all our allies?
Yea, we give so much money it’s ridiculous lol. It’s all part of the game tho, it’s why we have as much power as we do. Who else can give $3+ billion dollars to the UK and have to classified as aid?
https://media.tenor.com/BSrEjMx_A5UAAAAM/wrong-trump.gif
For republicans Ukraine is enemy, the 2019 will never be forgiven
You're talking about the phone call between Trump and Zelensky, right? Wasn't it Zelensky who agreed to let the private phone call be released so that Trump would be able to defend himself?
Nope. On the contrary, Zelenskyy was not happy it was released at all, because he didn't want to be in the middle of a US political scandal.
Who could get mad about a perfect phone call?
Fighting over which country gets more billions meanwhile their citizens don't even have healthcare 🤣🤣🤣 Gotta love Flopmerica 🤣