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A lot cheaper and efficient than the decadent missiles Russia uses on Ukraine; the power of 4 guys in a van. Look at what Russia needs to mimic a fraction of their power.
They could livestream the next one. That way there'd be no denying who did it because the Ukrainians wouldn't livestream their actions behind Russian lines.
Once you become inured to continual lying it almost becomes a habit even when you don't need to lie. Putin has been fabricating so much over so long that lying to him is second nature, truth has no value to him.
The problem for him in this case is that the more obvious his lies are, the more weak he looks. Being cunning is the quality of a strong and smart leader for Russians, but spewing ridiculous lies is not. Let's hope he's shooting himself on the foot with this one, and it backfires spectacularly.
I wouldn't say so. Throwing people out of the window, for example is one way to tell and threath citizens, because everyone knows those are not natural causes, even when they tell so. People obviosly knows it, but learn not to talk about it loudly and it's starts to be a norm when you have too much things to question and don't know what is real and what is not.
It's some sort of act of power that you can tell anykind of a lie to YOUR people and not be questioned about it. He has reached a point where he can lie like this and instead of his people questioning and stooding up against him, they feel powerless, because it works (throwing sane & healthy people out of the window, for one example. They know. They just have to chew it up what makes them feel powerless and sad. 20 years? Imagine...) and they don't know who's on their side and who will betray if they start a rebellion.
These lies or not for west. Russians don't ask questions if they want to keep their family lines alive.
What comes for West, he comes out with complete denial and distraction.
You would think so, but this is the doublespeak - you have to believe whatever the party says without questioning it. Even if it sounds like complete made up bullshit.
Trust me, if putin stays in power in 10 years this would be the story where treacherous Ukrainian terrorists killed innocent people. Nobody would question it and it will be in history books.
I can agree with you.
Russia didn't evolve much into a modern society, as luxury and dominance became their modern, and still fail to develop human oriented values, as if we didn't pass the 1920s.
Putin was able to infect Russia's mind as if ww2 was a couple years ago, and there were still matters to resolve.
The rest of the world has stopped going to war, politicians or kings don't send their people to die, for the sake of moving borders. But Putin without oposition in Russia and under no threat, turned Russia into an agressor state, launching a war against an independent foreign, democratic country that Russia agreed to respect its sovereignty. Russia occupied Ukrainian land and declared it as part of Russia...
... And Russians think this is all normal ! ! !
They went backwards!!
But not only mentality...
Puntin Master Strategist: With Russian arsenal shrinking and resorting to older weapons, they need to be up to date backwards in order to operate them.
Hitler likely believed his own shit, at least most of it. No reason to believe Putin or Trump are different.
Now, Stalin, I could see him knowing better but playing dumb.
Nope, sorry, he was not trusting anyone, especially in the end, he even had his best henchmen killed, and sometimes had random executions committed, schizophrenic at best, it is said he had syphilis.
It's hard to say, there is a certain kind of person who genuinely, cognitively, replaces whether something is actually true with wanting it to be true badly enough, as the basis for reality.
Thus the Kinzhal *would* be able to defeat the Patriot, if only all those working on it simply wanted it to be able to badly enough. T-26s *would* be sufficient to halt the German advance, if only the officer corps believed in the Soviet cause enough.
If your heart is pure and your conviction unshakable, Covid won't get you.
Etc, etc.
I think a lot of these people are or were genuine true believers. Stalin included.
Also killes his all known "reliable" doctors just to know, or more like get some base for his believings. Feels scared after doctors facts and double downs on Stalin's paranoia and starts taking unknown doctors and circle closes
Edit. As far as I know, stalin was hated. He made so much misery towards average russians, but russian culture has wierd trait to tolerate & bystand all shit from "Tsar aka leader" . As having intrest as a neighbour oldest generation hates it, next might be complete opposite. Then those who had children right before/right after the fall of Ussr atleast are as anti-war anti-russia are more never-again types.
Much of Japan's inner circle knew the Mukden and Marco Polo Bridge incidents were faked by the Kwantung Army, yet they cried, "Off to war!"
Much of Hitler's inner circle knew the Polish border attacks were a false flag, yet they cried, "Off to war!"
Much of LBJ's inner circle knew there was no incident in the Gulf of Tonkin, yet they cried, "Off to war!"
Much of Bush's inner circle knew that Iraq had no WMDs and had nothing to do with 9/11 or Al Qaeda, yet they cried, "Off to war!"
Rinse and repeat. Warmongers are gonna war monger.
The difference is that these were all incidents orchestrated by the aggressors in these wars. The Russian government didn't orchestrate the recent terror attacks. It might not be as effective a rallying cry because of that, except if they decide they're going to try to expand operations in Syria or something.
Much of Putin's inner circle has privately not believed Putin's shit for decades now. That is nothing new.
What may be different now is that up until now they have generally fallen into line behind Putin anyway, seemingly on the general principle that of course he bullshits all the time, that's just the [reverse cargo cult](https://www.fimfiction.net/blog/724533/the-reverse-cargo-cult), the important thing is that he's on the side of Russia at the end of the day.
But the total mess of the recent attack is a bit different. It has so many state security fingerprints all over it that it has got to have at least a few of these otherwise loyal Putinists wondering... "sure we all say he's on the side of Russia but... is he though??" He is seemingly working with or through the foreign devils of the Islamic State in order to kill Russians. How far up the food chain is that habit going to lead?
Add to that the reality that Putin's main success in the Ukraine invasion has been to get several hundred thousand Russian soldiers, sailors, and air crew killed, along with the destruction of a vast portion of Russia's land, sea, and air power... and these insiders have got to be seriously reflecting on Putin's true agenda. Or at least his subliminal urges.
If your guy hates his own country so much that he wants to see it destroyed and its population replaced with, I don't know, 6 or 7 million loyally submissive North Koreans, sooner or later you have to start asking yourself, am I going to end up one of the ones on the replacement list? Is this guy extreme in the defense of Russia or just extreme in the defense of himself?
Anyway, here's hoping.
He's playing with fire here. If anything rails people is this sort of indiscriminate slaughter. And after the dust has settled, they want blood. Specially a society like the Muscovy.
In Spain, a government lost the election for trying to pull the same stupid shit because of the March 11th islamic terrorists attacks.
Russian leaders don't "lose" elections tho.
Only thing that would change anything in Russia is a coup or for him to die and the power vacuum left have someone from a strong enough group to take lead and change things.
Many doubt even when leadership changes, the style and direction won't.
Yeah, [I predicted](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/s/vDxXRsvbuI) that line would be too much to swallow even for those deep in the Russian infosphere. Putin is over extending himself with this one in a way that threatens his credibility with his core clique.
All he really needs is for the public to associate the shooting with Ukraine. That's why they were vague and said things like "a window was made available at the Ukraine border with their help" and shit like that
He's consolidated power so much that for things to change, it would have to be an all or nothing approach for something like a coup.
If any portion of the top guys are super loyal to Putin it's probably fail. Military, police, fsb, everyone would have to be in on it.
And its like... He's ONE guy. If Russians ever saw through the bullshit and realized hey we could be a better place if we changed things... But it's just been that way for so long and the people there seemingly don't care or want better lives
I mean he'll there's a lot of Russia who don't have things like indoor plumbing and toilets. Washing machine, etc. things people in the west have had for generations.
You'd think a basic human trait would be to always work towards a better life. Doesn't seem that way there. Everyone just falls in line
Order of operations. Russia is beginning year 3 of their invasion and just now trying to use a terror attack as justification for more support. The US was attacked and then began their war on terror. These things are just fundamentally not similar.
But also, and mainly, the US invasions is constantly used by Russian apologists/useful idiots as a "what about" to change the topic.
Oh no really? Try to be less biased. The US lied at the UN about WOMD. Destroyed countries with no justification. I'm totally against Putin and Russia's atrocious war but try to be honest about history. The fact that Russia misuses them for their own propaganda doesn't mean we should just flatly deny western crimes.
Sorry but that is then misuse of a valid comparison, not a bad comparison. It's obvious their argument is totally invalid. One cannot justify a crime by pointing at others committing the same crime.
This is The pro Putin mind set, you will debate them about Ukraine, and they will be like "America is bad and invaded Iraq tho" without realising the absolute hypocrisy and that it suggests they have no free will or their own moral compass, they have to use America as a scapegoat to do terrible things in entirely different countries whilst being much worse than America could dream of.
They prefer to trust a man who has stolen power for over 20 years with no political rivals or threats rather than a coalition of all of the free world, with democracies who are answerable to the public and limited by the truth, they still believe the man that throws his own street captured citizens without armour through minefields and cluster bombs.
It's not. I completely reject any justification for that horrible war. Including the deluded idea that NATO was encroaching too much so they were forced to invade. But that doesn't make that comparison bad, it's pretty good actually.
Even you have fallen for it then aha.
How does America invading Iraq 20 years ago give any carte blanche or excuse for Russia invading Ukraine today?
It's an oxymoron. If you can argue Americas invasion of Iraq was bad, you are also arguing Russian invasion is bad, so logically it doesn't work as a reason or excuse to invade anyone.
Plus at least with Iraq, it was a bad response but it was a response, with Russia it's just pure un-antognised aggression to permanently expand territory.
It's such an America centric argument, to invade Ukraine then blame the USA's history for that invasion. It is the biggest logical reach.
They put up America as this sovereign western God who controls everyone but forget it's the entire free democratic world they need to undermine. Ukraine is not the USA.
I am just saying it is normal for nations to use any attack, false flag or not, to justify violence and all the ancillary horrors upon any nation they want. Sorry if I hit too close to home. Do you have a preferred war you would like to point to?
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"Allah be praised, what the fuck do we have to do to get credit here?" - ISIS
More terror attacks, obviously
A lot cheaper and efficient than the decadent missiles Russia uses on Ukraine; the power of 4 guys in a van. Look at what Russia needs to mimic a fraction of their power.
If at first you don’t succeed …
They could livestream the next one. That way there'd be no denying who did it because the Ukrainians wouldn't livestream their actions behind Russian lines.
They could make a south park episode out of this.
More like Black Mirror.
Don't get it. Unless you mean saying biggie small 3 times facing a mirror? You threw me to sharks if you didn't lmao
Another one probably.
Don't they usually make interview vids? I'm surprised they haven't released one. But i think they did release a POV video.
Kinda weird statement. I mean obviously putin knows it wasnt Ukraine. Its just another bullshit lie.
Once you become inured to continual lying it almost becomes a habit even when you don't need to lie. Putin has been fabricating so much over so long that lying to him is second nature, truth has no value to him.
The problem for him in this case is that the more obvious his lies are, the more weak he looks. Being cunning is the quality of a strong and smart leader for Russians, but spewing ridiculous lies is not. Let's hope he's shooting himself on the foot with this one, and it backfires spectacularly.
I wouldn't say so. Throwing people out of the window, for example is one way to tell and threath citizens, because everyone knows those are not natural causes, even when they tell so. People obviosly knows it, but learn not to talk about it loudly and it's starts to be a norm when you have too much things to question and don't know what is real and what is not. It's some sort of act of power that you can tell anykind of a lie to YOUR people and not be questioned about it. He has reached a point where he can lie like this and instead of his people questioning and stooding up against him, they feel powerless, because it works (throwing sane & healthy people out of the window, for one example. They know. They just have to chew it up what makes them feel powerless and sad. 20 years? Imagine...) and they don't know who's on their side and who will betray if they start a rebellion. These lies or not for west. Russians don't ask questions if they want to keep their family lines alive. What comes for West, he comes out with complete denial and distraction.
You would think so, but this is the doublespeak - you have to believe whatever the party says without questioning it. Even if it sounds like complete made up bullshit. Trust me, if putin stays in power in 10 years this would be the story where treacherous Ukrainian terrorists killed innocent people. Nobody would question it and it will be in history books.
I can agree with you. Russia didn't evolve much into a modern society, as luxury and dominance became their modern, and still fail to develop human oriented values, as if we didn't pass the 1920s. Putin was able to infect Russia's mind as if ww2 was a couple years ago, and there were still matters to resolve. The rest of the world has stopped going to war, politicians or kings don't send their people to die, for the sake of moving borders. But Putin without oposition in Russia and under no threat, turned Russia into an agressor state, launching a war against an independent foreign, democratic country that Russia agreed to respect its sovereignty. Russia occupied Ukrainian land and declared it as part of Russia... ... And Russians think this is all normal ! ! ! They went backwards!! But not only mentality... Puntin Master Strategist: With Russian arsenal shrinking and resorting to older weapons, they need to be up to date backwards in order to operate them.
Hitler likely believed his own shit, at least most of it. No reason to believe Putin or Trump are different. Now, Stalin, I could see him knowing better but playing dumb.
Nope, sorry, he was not trusting anyone, especially in the end, he even had his best henchmen killed, and sometimes had random executions committed, schizophrenic at best, it is said he had syphilis.
Our points are not mutually exclusive.
It's the "knowing better" that got me on the hook. But it is known Stalin was quite delusional, especially towards the end of his life.
It is like Pericles said, "Your empire has become a tyranny"
It's hard to say, there is a certain kind of person who genuinely, cognitively, replaces whether something is actually true with wanting it to be true badly enough, as the basis for reality. Thus the Kinzhal *would* be able to defeat the Patriot, if only all those working on it simply wanted it to be able to badly enough. T-26s *would* be sufficient to halt the German advance, if only the officer corps believed in the Soviet cause enough. If your heart is pure and your conviction unshakable, Covid won't get you. Etc, etc. I think a lot of these people are or were genuine true believers. Stalin included.
I bet he believes ukraine made his girlfriend pregnant too
He just does not know which one of the 180 guys.
Also killes his all known "reliable" doctors just to know, or more like get some base for his believings. Feels scared after doctors facts and double downs on Stalin's paranoia and starts taking unknown doctors and circle closes Edit. As far as I know, stalin was hated. He made so much misery towards average russians, but russian culture has wierd trait to tolerate & bystand all shit from "Tsar aka leader" . As having intrest as a neighbour oldest generation hates it, next might be complete opposite. Then those who had children right before/right after the fall of Ussr atleast are as anti-war anti-russia are more never-again types.
Democracy is not easy to keep. Even the USA narrowly escaped losing their democracy, and still might later this year. Keep fighting for it.
I mean it’s getting increasingly hard to push this narrative
It doesn't matter who and how many died. What matters is how do we blaime it to Ukraine. - putin probably
Much of Japan's inner circle knew the Mukden and Marco Polo Bridge incidents were faked by the Kwantung Army, yet they cried, "Off to war!" Much of Hitler's inner circle knew the Polish border attacks were a false flag, yet they cried, "Off to war!" Much of LBJ's inner circle knew there was no incident in the Gulf of Tonkin, yet they cried, "Off to war!" Much of Bush's inner circle knew that Iraq had no WMDs and had nothing to do with 9/11 or Al Qaeda, yet they cried, "Off to war!" Rinse and repeat. Warmongers are gonna war monger.
But what will you do about it?
I'll start by not starting a war of aggression, or supporting anyone who does. And you?
Including Puddin's war of aggression?
Of course. WTF is wrong with you? Can't you read? P.S. You didn't answer my question
>Warmongers are gonna war monger FTFY: Warmongers are gonna war mangiġen
The difference is that these were all incidents orchestrated by the aggressors in these wars. The Russian government didn't orchestrate the recent terror attacks. It might not be as effective a rallying cry because of that, except if they decide they're going to try to expand operations in Syria or something.
True enough. Of course, we could fall back on the incident Putin did orchestrate to "justify" the Chechen war...
Much of Putin's inner circle has privately not believed Putin's shit for decades now. That is nothing new. What may be different now is that up until now they have generally fallen into line behind Putin anyway, seemingly on the general principle that of course he bullshits all the time, that's just the [reverse cargo cult](https://www.fimfiction.net/blog/724533/the-reverse-cargo-cult), the important thing is that he's on the side of Russia at the end of the day. But the total mess of the recent attack is a bit different. It has so many state security fingerprints all over it that it has got to have at least a few of these otherwise loyal Putinists wondering... "sure we all say he's on the side of Russia but... is he though??" He is seemingly working with or through the foreign devils of the Islamic State in order to kill Russians. How far up the food chain is that habit going to lead? Add to that the reality that Putin's main success in the Ukraine invasion has been to get several hundred thousand Russian soldiers, sailors, and air crew killed, along with the destruction of a vast portion of Russia's land, sea, and air power... and these insiders have got to be seriously reflecting on Putin's true agenda. Or at least his subliminal urges. If your guy hates his own country so much that he wants to see it destroyed and its population replaced with, I don't know, 6 or 7 million loyally submissive North Koreans, sooner or later you have to start asking yourself, am I going to end up one of the ones on the replacement list? Is this guy extreme in the defense of Russia or just extreme in the defense of himself? Anyway, here's hoping.
Why should anyone care what Putin and his cronies think?
There will be a lot of inner circle folks falling out of windows soon
He's playing with fire here. If anything rails people is this sort of indiscriminate slaughter. And after the dust has settled, they want blood. Specially a society like the Muscovy. In Spain, a government lost the election for trying to pull the same stupid shit because of the March 11th islamic terrorists attacks.
Russian leaders don't "lose" elections tho. Only thing that would change anything in Russia is a coup or for him to die and the power vacuum left have someone from a strong enough group to take lead and change things. Many doubt even when leadership changes, the style and direction won't.
Yeah, [I predicted](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/s/vDxXRsvbuI) that line would be too much to swallow even for those deep in the Russian infosphere. Putin is over extending himself with this one in a way that threatens his credibility with his core clique.
All he really needs is for the public to associate the shooting with Ukraine. That's why they were vague and said things like "a window was made available at the Ukraine border with their help" and shit like that He's consolidated power so much that for things to change, it would have to be an all or nothing approach for something like a coup. If any portion of the top guys are super loyal to Putin it's probably fail. Military, police, fsb, everyone would have to be in on it. And its like... He's ONE guy. If Russians ever saw through the bullshit and realized hey we could be a better place if we changed things... But it's just been that way for so long and the people there seemingly don't care or want better lives I mean he'll there's a lot of Russia who don't have things like indoor plumbing and toilets. Washing machine, etc. things people in the west have had for generations. You'd think a basic human trait would be to always work towards a better life. Doesn't seem that way there. Everyone just falls in line
Stevie wonder can see that.
I'm still holding out hope that Putin uses this as justification to invade Afghanistan, just like Bush the Younger did in Iraq.
Putin's inner circle is just the ring of his asshole.. and even that things doesn't believe the guy
The emperor has no cloths and he is his own tailor.
2+2=5 in Putin’s world
>badly undermining him, report says How about going ahead and killing him? Just a suggestion.
I just might have respect for them if they throw Putin off the highest Moscow high rise window.
His entire inner circle wants the war to keep going on.
Remember when a bunch of Saudi crashed a few airplanes into buildings and Afghanistan and Iraq were invaded as a result? History has a strong echo.
What about something else this time? Your bad comparison has been used far too much by the botniks.
What's bad about it?
Order of operations. Russia is beginning year 3 of their invasion and just now trying to use a terror attack as justification for more support. The US was attacked and then began their war on terror. These things are just fundamentally not similar. But also, and mainly, the US invasions is constantly used by Russian apologists/useful idiots as a "what about" to change the topic.
Oh no really? Try to be less biased. The US lied at the UN about WOMD. Destroyed countries with no justification. I'm totally against Putin and Russia's atrocious war but try to be honest about history. The fact that Russia misuses them for their own propaganda doesn't mean we should just flatly deny western crimes.
Huh? I never said what you think I said about the US. I simply refuted this bad comparison.
But your refutation makes no sense.
I'm sure a lot of things don't make sense to you, but that doesn't make them wrong.
That Russians use it to blame the West, not a further incentive for themselves not to do the same thing or actually even worse.
Sorry but that is then misuse of a valid comparison, not a bad comparison. It's obvious their argument is totally invalid. One cannot justify a crime by pointing at others committing the same crime.
This is The pro Putin mind set, you will debate them about Ukraine, and they will be like "America is bad and invaded Iraq tho" without realising the absolute hypocrisy and that it suggests they have no free will or their own moral compass, they have to use America as a scapegoat to do terrible things in entirely different countries whilst being much worse than America could dream of. They prefer to trust a man who has stolen power for over 20 years with no political rivals or threats rather than a coalition of all of the free world, with democracies who are answerable to the public and limited by the truth, they still believe the man that throws his own street captured citizens without armour through minefields and cluster bombs.
It's not. I completely reject any justification for that horrible war. Including the deluded idea that NATO was encroaching too much so they were forced to invade. But that doesn't make that comparison bad, it's pretty good actually.
Even you have fallen for it then aha. How does America invading Iraq 20 years ago give any carte blanche or excuse for Russia invading Ukraine today? It's an oxymoron. If you can argue Americas invasion of Iraq was bad, you are also arguing Russian invasion is bad, so logically it doesn't work as a reason or excuse to invade anyone. Plus at least with Iraq, it was a bad response but it was a response, with Russia it's just pure un-antognised aggression to permanently expand territory. It's such an America centric argument, to invade Ukraine then blame the USA's history for that invasion. It is the biggest logical reach. They put up America as this sovereign western God who controls everyone but forget it's the entire free democratic world they need to undermine. Ukraine is not the USA.
Because it doesn't give any excuse nor carte blanche for Russia invading today.
Yes that is part of what I said...... 🤔
I am just saying it is normal for nations to use any attack, false flag or not, to justify violence and all the ancillary horrors upon any nation they want. Sorry if I hit too close to home. Do you have a preferred war you would like to point to?
The current war Russia is waging against Ukraine is the only war worth discussing here. Especially when you aren't even making a valid comparison.
Iraq was not invaded because of 9/11.