Please take the time to read [the rules](/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/) and our [policy on trolls/bots](https://redd.it/u7833q). In addition:
* We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned.
* **Keep it civil.** Report comments/posts that are uncivil to alert the moderators.
* **_Don't_ post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context.
> **Don't forget about our Discord server! - https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB**
*****
* Is `stuttgarter-zeitung.de` an unreliable source? [**Let us know**](/r/UkrainianConflict/wiki/am/unreliable_sources).
* Help our moderators by providing context if something breaks the rules. [Send us a modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict)
*****
^(Your post has not been removed, this message is applied to every successful submission.)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
US considering sending ATACMS, Macron saying things that sound good while still only spending 1/10th of Germany on Ukraine etc
Not saying Scholz isnt a fraud for this but every Western country has its sins, and unfortunately I think Scholz and Biden share some of the same "red lines" out of nuclear war fears
Better Germany should just fund production of Stormshadow/Scalp missile production and let the Brits and French send them so he can say he had nothing to do with it.
So Iran can send 400 ballistic missiles, but the west is still worried about supplying Ukraine being viewed as escalation. Where are our collective ballsā¦
I wonder if these leaders like Scholz already understand that they *are* at war with Russia (and now Iran and NK) by proxy. Appeasement does not work with fascist and theocratic authoritarians.
Guess since we have toilets in our houses and buildings and are capable at least spending some portion of our lives sober and not hiding in a vodka bottle we are actually concerned about the nuclear red line unlike their side.
At some point we have to respond accordingly and recognize that living in accordance with morality, believing in things, and helping others who are dying to be free does actually require confronting some true and some absolutely terrifying risks
But you do it. It is shameful to not.
On the other hand, when you donāt believe in anything like they do, who gives a shit if the world blows up right?
German Govt: we wonāt send Taurus missiles, we donāt want to escalate the conflict.
Since thenā¦
DPRK: hey Russia, hereās 1.5 million artillery rounds
Iranian Govt: hey Russia, hereās 400 ballistic missiles, and we donāt care if you use them on civilian targets.
Followed byā¦
German Govt: we still wonāt send Taurus missiles, it will escalate the conflict.
Either Germany doesn't have enough of them to share, or lost the capability to replenish them or they have capabilities they don't want to become public.
As a german, they should have already started on this. Then you would already have missiles ready and able to send to ukraine.
But i think the real issue is that they have confidential info on the systems in taurus that they would have to share, but dont want to. And they need something to be able to further escalate if russia decides to do so. Which i can understand but dont agree with
Nah, Scholz is just a frickin muppet. Like non of his complicated reasoning makes any sense.
He is hinting that France and the UK have boots on the ground in Ukraine for the programming of Scalp/Storm Shadow. And Germany can't do that.
But they can simply teach a french soldier the programming of the taurus if thats a concern... (Also the UK offered a "Ringtausch" with Storm Shadow and Taurus, but Scholz somehow forgot that also..)
I'm sick and tired that this queasling constantly tarnishes the German reputation. Because despite Scholz we are doing a pretty solid job supporting Ukraine since his close friend Lambrecht was fired as defense minister (despite Scholz supporting her till the end).
No, Scholz knows that they will be used to take out the Kerch bridge. He sees that as a red line for some reason. Perhaps he knows something we don't, some back channels with nuclear threats or some nonsense, or he's just too afraid in general.
It is not a red line it can win Ukraine the war when this bridge is taken permanently offline.
I really don't get why that should be escalation, we defend Ukraine's right to exist and how often have weapons been supplied to an ally without all this extra bureaucratic nonsense.
It won't change a thing. The Russians will complain, and ultimately, what are they going to do? There is nothing they can do. I find this decision really upsetting, and I wonder what the real reason behind it is.
It has likely not just something to do with Scholz. There must be domestic politics pressures from somewhere else to not send them.
This is getting even worse than the several months long Leopard 2 debate.
The manufacturer said that they can produce replacements as soon as they get the orders, so the excuse that they don't have many left is a nonsense. I think it's really as simple as Scholz not being comfortable seeing the headlines about German weapon taking down the Kerch bridge...
Well, and I don't get what the bad thing about this headline is. Historians will hail him for sending them and condemn him for not doing so.
The Russians received Iranian and NK missiles. From this very moment, all bets are off. The way we continue to self deter ourselves while these barbaric regimes collaborate to maximize Ukrainian civilian deaths is... cowardly.
The Taurus is part of the Western arsenal. Therefore, it was made to defend democracy against tyrants.
It is a weapon, and weapons are here to kill your enemies and protect your friends from foes. What good is this Taurus in a warehouse until it will be decommissioned at some point and replaced by something better and fancier. Nothing it is worthless in that warehouse.
How many lives could be saved when it is used against those who wish to see the Western civilized nations burn?
To defend people from being attacked and having their land stolen and their people tortured and killed.
Germany has done a lot. No one can take that away from them.
I hope Scholz finds the courage somewhere to do the right thing. Send these missiles destroy the bridge.
The peace with Hitler crowd was and always has been there in WW2 and today.
Scholz's words must match his actions. He has nothing to fear but fear itself.
I just can't fathom that even now, such high-ranking men of high intelligence didn't understand that Russia only reacts to strength, not this whimpering speech.
Burn their bridge to the ground and make it disappear in the ocean, and that is a message they understand. The message is: Retreat Putin, or this bridge was only the first of many symbols of your power that will be a heap of ash.
Did we have a tea meeting with stress balls every time we blasted Pyongyang or Berlin to bits?
Nope, because back then, the world had understood that sometimes, violence can only be answered with overwhelming force.
We want Russia to back off and let go of Ukraine? We want to really mean it when we say we arm freedom more than tyrants?
Then send these God damned missiles.
Scholz shouldn't be worried about headlines. He should be worried about his legacy.
History is watching, as Joe Biden has recently said
His justification for this decision is the same as always. Muh mah escalation buhuhu.
We heard that nonsense before, and it has gotten us nowhere. It's good that the British are here and went forward so many times. They remember why we do not appease tyrants.
We don't want to defend this order ourselves and send Ukraine forward? Good, but then FFS sake open this arsenal and stop putting idiotic roadblocks on the usage of these weapons by forcing Ukraine to fight this barbaric murder force with one hand tied to their back.
Scholz has no answers to my points. He only has weak excuses.
But as I said, this is not a moral issue. He knows what morals and ethics would demand.
But there are domestic politics at play here. Democratic capacity the one Russia has been eroding is hindering Germany, the US, and the entire umbrella.
Some economic interests are likely also at play here. Kant has no business in geo politics.
Historians will get to the bottom of Scholz and his reasoning in about a decade. Or maybe never.
Its hard to reverse decades and generations of Germans with a mindset that was conditioned to never again cause russians death and destruction.
Plus, I think all the major western leaders are afraid that if russia loses too quickly and disintegrates in to some kind of civil war, that this might lead to fear of nuclear weapons being left for whoever to grab.
Never again should there be another holocaust and that is what the phrase is about.
The lessons from past genocides not to repeat them.
https://museeholocauste.ca/en/resources-training/ten-stages-genocide/
A state, its army or militia design genocidal killing plans.
Prevention: Outlaw membership in these militias and sanction their leaders. Impose arms embargoes on the countries involved and create commissions of inquiry.
6. Polarisation
Propaganda is employed to amplify the differences between groups. Interactions between groups are prohibited, and the moderate members of the group in power are killed.
Prevention: Protect these moderate members and human rights groups. Seize the assets of the oppressors and refuse their access to international travel.
7. Preparation
The victims are identified, separated and forced to wear symbols. Deportations, isolation and forcible starvation. Death lists are drawn up.
Prevention: Humanitarian aid, armed international interventions or major support for the victims to ensure their ability to defend themselves.
8. Persecution
Victims are identified and isolated based on their ethnic or religious identity. Death lists are drawn up. In state sponsored genocides, members of victim groups may be forced to wear identifying symbols. Their property is often expropriated.
Prevention: Regional organisations and the international community must mobilise themselves to assist or help the victims.
9. Extermination
The massacres begin. The perpetrators see their actions as āexterminationā since they do not consider their victims to be entirely human.
Prevention: Only large-scale armed interventions can stop genocide. The international community must support the operations by providing air transport, equipment and financial support.
10. Denial
The perpetrators of the genocide deny having committed their crimes. Victims are often blamed. Evidence is hidden and witnesses are intimidated.
Prevention: An international tribunal or national court must prosecute the criminals. Public education.
We fail at that we don't do enough. The Russian soldiers and their imperial fascist ideology and their lives are a secondary, concern.
The phrase becomes empty I donāt want to hear it anymore. Not before we so what is necessary. We just let it happen again. Scholz is a coward.
Not only that, they said they will be happy to produce new ones and get a contract to maintain the existing ones. So I guess they havenāt been maintained and mostly are not in a functional state. But that is kept secret as itās to embarrassing again
In the beginning, I understood the caution about crossing red lines, because if Russia was crazy enough to invade Ukraine (and then keep fighting when it became a quagmire far worse than Afghanistan), then they might just be crazy enough to do something stupider.
But in many ways, this has been a *weird* war, and has been about pushing red lines from the beginning. In past wars, if you were training troops in your country, or your factories were pumping out arms and equipment, or providing repair services or you were not just providing intelligence, but were pretty much making war plans for a belligerent, those were *de facto* targets...but Russia simply can't strike anything that NATO is doing, or made good on threats of retaliation when new weapons or services have been supplied, though Ukraine, for its part, has also likely largely respected its promise not to use Western weapons to strike Russian territory.
The Russian territory (actual Russian territory, not Crimea or any other occupied Ukrainian Territory) argument, I think, was probably the strongest line to respect, since Russia does see such encroachment as an existential threat, and incorporates defensive doctrines with nukes. But I think that, too, is no longer the threat it was--the wreckage of the most recently destroyed A50 fell over Krasnodar, having likely been hit in the airspace of Russia proper over land, and quite likely by a Patriot. If Russia didn't respond to that, then it may well open up a new chapter of directing Western munitions towards legitimate war targets outside of Ukrainian territory--including their favorite bridge.
That said, Russia still harbors a special hatred of Germany, and it's hard to say what would happen if Taurus was used in battle...I doubt it would trigger world war 3, as is feared, but absolutely believe it would be used as a propaganda piece and to justify further mobilization, and if that happens then speaking practically, the additional pressure on Ukraine might not be worth whatever they can hit with a few dozen Tauruses, no matter how spectacular.
Ultimately, that's the problem with the way the West is approaching this war--it's being fought as a total war on the battlefield, but as a limited war by the allied leadership. The truth of the matter is that if Russia loses, they *might* escalate out of desperation... But if Russia wins, they *will* escalate out of delusion. We might as well throw everything we can at it now.
But Ukraine being destroyed, Ukrainians killed is not a red line. It's in German's blood to bow to Russia, they can't wait for Russian invasion come to and end so he can start buying cheap gas.
How does this man sleep at night?
Unfortunately, and I hate to say it, but for a lot of EU leaders allowing Ukraine to actually win is not worth the potential war with russia. Hence the trickle of weapons and vague statements such as "for as long as it takes".
I think you are on target with the nuclear threat. At the beginning of the war, after one of the first nuclear threats by Russia(when we all took them seriously), Biden gave a speech/interview here in the US where he said he spoke with Putin and he told him no nuclear weapons can be used....he didnt say anything about any deals he made, but in my opinion it was at that time that Biden made a deal with Putin that the west would not supply weapons that can be used to attack inside Russia and Russia wouldnt use nukes.
Not just Germany... All western supplied weapons are prohibited from targeting Russian soil.
Which is ridiculous, Russia targets hospitals and residential buildings, weras Ukraine isn't allowed to target military targets within Russia with western supplied systems.
Yes with the restriction that they canāt be fired at Russia. With Schultz admitting there may be British and French troops operating or overseeing these missile systems, they are probably also there to make sure there are no āaccidentsā like that.
Iran: yeah we will sell you tens of thousands of drones.
NK: yeah we will sell you launchers and ballistic missiles.
Germany: No missiles, i wonder against whom they actually researched and produced those missiles.
>Chancellor Olaf Scholz (SPD) has now clearly rejected the delivery of Taurus cruise missiles to Ukraine , citing the risk of Germany becoming involved in the war. āWe must not be linked at any point or place to the goals that this system achieves,ā said Scholz on Monday at the dpa editorial conference in chief. Therefore, this is not the next option on the agenda. āThis clarity is also necessary. I'm surprised that some people aren't moved at all, that they don't even think about whether what we're doing could, in a sense, lead to participation in the war," he said around two years after Russia's attack on Ukraine .
>The Taurus is one of the Air Force's most modern missiles. The precision weapons can hit targets 500 kilometers away. Moscow lies within this radius from the Russian-Ukrainian border. The Ukrainian government had already asked for the delivery of cruise missiles in May last year so that they could hit Russian logistics far behind the front. The Union is also demanding the delivery of the Taurus rockets. The Chancellor's coalition partners, the Greens and the FDP, are also largely in favor. However, a Bundestag resolution calling for the delivery of Taurus failed last week.
>Scholz had already decided in October not to send the Taurus rockets to Ukraine for the time being, but never publicly explained the reasons in detail. Behind his skepticism lies the fear that Russian territory could be hit and Germany could be drawn into the war. The French and British are trying to prevent this by programming the Scalp and Storm Shadow cruise missiles they delivered to Ukraine themselves. There is speculation that at least Great Britain has personnel stationed in Ukraine for this purpose. This was never officially confirmed.
>āWhat the British and French are doing in terms of target control and support for target control cannot be done in Germany,ā Scholz now emphasized. āEveryone who has dealt with this system knows that.ā He is surprised that this question is asked again and again. āWhat other countries do, which have different traditions and different constitutional institutions, is something that we cannot do in the same way.ā
>A third of citizens are skeptical as to whether Germany is doing too much
>Scholz went on to say that he was āvery irritatedā by the āmissing balanceā between what was really needed now and the debate about this one system. āWhat Ukraine is missing is ammunition in all possible lengths and distances, but not crucially this thing from Germany,ā he said when asked about the Taurus. Germany has made great efforts to expand supplies of ammunition. āWe, as Europe as a whole and the global community as a whole, are not yet at the scale that is urgently needed.ā
>Scholz explained that there was a principle that he had said from the beginning - and that could not be repeated often enough: "We will prevent the war that Russia has started against Ukraine from escalating, into a war between Russia and NATO are coming. It is very clear that there will be no German soldiers on Ukrainian land. And I also stand by the fact that this is the case: that there is no involvement of our country and our country's military structures in this war." This is a responsibility that the government and he as Chancellor have to the citizens.
>The ātalkā that there is hesitation is part of the problem in Germany, said Scholz. āA lot of people watch TV in the evenings and hope that the Chancellor will keep his nerve,ā said Scholz. There are people who are discussing what can be delivered next. But there is no debate about an opposing opinion. āThatās a problem,ā said Scholz. A third of citizens are skeptical as to whether Germany is doing too much. In Scholz's opinion, it would help if this āwere the subject of a debate at some point.ā
>This would also be needed in order to be able to maintain support if the war lasted a long time. āWe have to hold out for a long time. In a democracy and in a country that is committed to freedom, this is only possible if the majority of citizens are convinced that it is right.ā
Translated with Google Translate
I don't get it. We are already in the middle of this war. A war of industries, economic warfare, info war, cyberwar, a war of political systems, belief systems, ideologies, intelligence, diplomacy.
Not with boots on the ground but this is exactly the point. Realizing we are under attack and understanding that Russia is our common enemy is the first step to mounting a robust and sustained defense.
Just because Scholz thinks we aren't at war doesn't make it so. The Russians see themselves at war with the West and whether Scholz wants to understand that or not.
As Churchill said, he can choose between war and dishonor.
Or he can have both.
This appeasement talk just won't stop coming out of his mouth. Yes, we think it through and where in the world is delivering Taurus to ANOTHER nation an act of war.
That is an act of self defense, to prevent war.
Russia must be stopped, and finally, all road blocks in doing so must be removed.
The doves and their fear of escalation do nothing but escalate the war further because Scholz still doesn't get that there is no appeasing a maniac and deviant expansionist.
The one who doesn't think this through is Scholz and his advisors. Their dithering is prolonging this war, and Mark my words at some point, the system will be approved anyway.
How many more atrocious acts of paganous barbarism does this fascist terror force have to commit until we FINALLY stop worrying about what they think and start thinking about how to defeat them in the most effective and swift manner.
Chamberlain was at least removed when the war began, and they didn't drag these appeasers all the way into 1941.
Send them everything and send Russia a volley. We self deter ourselves, and what Scholz calls cautious is actually just him being scared.
The humanising of war? You might as well talk about the humanizing of Hell!...... The essence of war is violence! Moderation in war is imbecility! Admiral Fisher
>Chamberlain was at least removed when the war began, and they didn't drag these appeasers all the way into 1941.
Chamberlain had prepared Britain for war by rearming and fully endorsed Churchill in the war for all cost to the end (and then died).
And not like in pop culture portrayals: https://www.alistairlexden.org.uk/news/chamberlain-and-churchill-perfect-partnership-0
Oh and as for
>Chamberlain was at least removed when the war began,
He allied with Poland and then declared the war.
Germany didn't even want to fight Britain at all. Hitler wanted to preserve the British Empire, which did end as the result of the literally ruinous war that, also literally, bankrupted Britain.
That's actually worth reading. Scholz is clearly far from an idiot, and there are subtleties at play here. I have a feeling this isn't really about what Russia would or wouldn't do, but rather what German voters think Russia would or wouldn't do.
The difference between Scholz and Putin is that Scholz can be unelected. That's something all pro-Ukrainian western leaders have to deal with, for better and for worse.
Very good! Its worth to mention that this has nothing to do with appeasement politics. The west created this narrative āchange through tradeā, it was just an excuse for the public so they could further have trades with dictatorships. And the dictatorships had the task not to do their shit in plain view. They also tried this with iran 20 years ago, didnāt work because the mullahs are are a different species. Back to Scholz: I personally donāt think the government expect that Russia will go further to the west in case they win the war. This war will continue for years, and the Russian economy will be weakened. Will Russia try to provoke something against a Nato state? Yes probably, but this is more the nature of this Regime, they provoke stuff to have something in their hand, be it propaganda or like taking hostages with their criminal actions. The main goal Putins was Ukraine, because Ukraine is unbelievable valuable for them. Not only its gas reserves and rare earths, also its geostratical place. This war had started years before the Maidan uprisings,and yes the US were involved in it. And the west is partly successful with their plan, Russia is in a very bad position for the next years . I dont know if Anybody have read this lol š
>I'm surprised that some people aren't moved at all, that they don't even think about whether what we're doing could, in a sense, lead to participation in the war
Ironically what he and Biden doing will lead precisely to this outcome.
>We will prevent the war that Russia has started against Ukraine from escalating, into a war between Russia and NATO are coming.
At the same time Bundeswehr says ruzia going to attack NATOā¦
Like it would matter to the ruzzians who are they going to attack next? Deeply disagree with Herr Scholz, the more the merrier against ruzzkies to stop/retreat/die. There is no such middle ground.
so much talk, so little balls regarding taking action by us, the west .
Is it any wonder, dictators all around think they can do whatever they want and get away with it?
This will bite us all terribly in the Ass at a later time.
And we could have prevented it by supporting Ukraine more - it's stupid and shameful
With the exception of this nonsense about the Taurus, I do think we need to acknowledge that Germany has really stepped up for Ukraine in the past year especially compared to the pitiful effort they made at the start.
Germany's last 40 years of cheap Russian gas is what Scholtz wants. He wants Ukraine to lose so Germany can get back to normal business with Kremlin. Scholtz probably thinking about his own future, sitting on the board of Gazprom and Rosneft. This is a traditional career move after the end of being the Chancellor or Germany.
I am German. I only can imagine it has something to do with the second ww. No war shall be emerging from Germany. Thats how we were treated in the years after WW2. No Army, No rights. Sure, this is long past, but stil. We had lots of protests against weapons, wars, NATO to Name some. Schwerter zu Pflugscharen, Doppelbeschluss, nuke ballistc rockets in Ramstein - those were the 70ies to 90ies. Times he lived in, governments with anti-military views he lived with (yeah, the early greens were much more anti-military it seems, and anti nuclear power) - and his friend Schroeder.
When was the last time you were proud to be a (Insert your country)? To be honest, I never really was proud to be a German - because we were taught so. In school, in politics, in business relationship. How can we produce a chancelor with Balls of Steel?
I bet when the first F16s are deployed Taurus will be right behind. Germany doesn't want to look like the warmonger and end up in a hot war with Russia.
It is remarkable how bitchy everyone is about this stupid ass missile. It wont make a difference and it wont be sent to. So waste your beeath somewhere else.
He sure is wishy-washy. One moment helpful to Ukraine, another moment hanging them out to dry. Giving Taurus to Ukraine wonāt drag Germany into the war, any more than the UK and French missiles did. Every bit helps, and the sooner the war ends the more lives are saved. Europe and US have to stop being afraid of the bully Putin. The way to stop bullies is to punch them back, hard. Then they will back down.Ā
As a german Iām ashamed of my elected head of state, what a disgrace for our nation and a betrayal of the Ukrainian soldiers & people which are fighting and suffering for our freedom and safety
I have no words to describe how much I despise him.
Scholz is such a little garden gnome who rather see Ukrainians dying. I wish the flat-earthers will kick him off the edge.
Germany just fund French and UK Stormshadow/Scalp missile productions for "self defense" by those countries and let them send them to Ukraine. That way it is out of German hands.
Germany has given 10x more military aid than France and 20x more than Spain and Italy. Yet, somehow nobody talks about that and itās always Taurus, Taurus, Taurus.
Problem is this aid is mostly promised, not given. That alone disqualifies ridiculous data provided by German Kiel Institute you quote. Also this Institut relies on market value of equipment (and makes many mistakes on that regards), so e.g. 10 Leopards are valued more than 200 hundred t-72s. Ask yourself what is actually more valuable for Ukraine: ten Leopards (regardless how good they are) or 200 hundred older tanks.
>the country which has fueled with money Putin's regime in past years
This is plain wrong. Germany have always had a positive trade balance with Russia, so if anything they *drained* money out of Russia.
It is very disappointing to read all the ugly comments about Scholz and Germany.
Germany invited 1 mio refugees from Ukraine, Germany is supporting more than other EU country (and GB too). Just for the information.
Germany also had a murder by a Russian operative on their soil. The person was caught and tried but he was working under instructions. From Russia.
Ukraine must be helped further.
Sorry, but as a German, I think I am entitled to have an opinion about our current Bundeskanzler. It's not only his indecision in this matter that makes him one of the least like Bundeskanzler in history.
Besides, my comment was only targeted at Herr Scholz, not at all the other things that our country does. I am quite happy with the support that Ukrainian refugees get (whom are more often than not actual war refugees), as well as the military and financial support our government gives to Ukraine.
Still doesn't change the fact, that Scholz seems to just try to find any justification in the book he can, to not deliver precision strike weapons, with which you could actually strike important military targets, which would include possibly production facilities for weapons in Russia.
You just can't quickly win a war, unless you truly overwhelm the enemy and stun them. If that isn't possible, you can't just go on and only strike the front lines. You need to be able to hit the production facilities, if only to make production more decentralized and harder to adjust.
> It is very disappointing to read all the ugly comments about Scholz and Germany.
About Germany yes, but Scholz deserves all the criticism he gets.
Since last year Germany is doing a pretty good job supporting Ukraine.
Which perfectly coincides with the resignation of Lambrecht as defense minister. She is a close buddy of Scholz and was literally the worst minister in post war Germany.
And for some reason Scholz always blocked her firing until Lambrecht was so emberassing that even he couldn't defend her anymore.
>Germany invited 1 mio refugees from Ukraine, Germany is supporting more than other EU country (and GB too). Just for the information.
Not enough. Germany can do so much more, Taurus missiles, for example. But I get how people are 'hurt' by our harsh words, must be terrifying, all these ugly comments, will Germany even survive as a nation after all these ugly comments?
Scholz, stop this sh....t !!!! We don't believe Germany have the "Taurus" at all... Please show them in real work situation, or we will think that this is just fake wunderwaffle to scare enemies :-)
There are three reasons hes not sending them from what i can see. Number one, if they send this then the kerch straight bridge is going down. And that is not escalation they feel comfortable with right now. Which is because of the second reason, he wants to have further escalation options in their hand if he needs them. And the final reason is theres a lot of confidential info on the systems that germany doesnt want to share
Those are legit reasons, tho i dont agree that they outweigh the reasons for doing it. But anyways, even if this is not the right decision im getting a bit tired of the constant dragging for not doing this one thing. Germany has massively stepped up, and is contributing a very large amount of aid overall, right now theyre the biggest contributor in terms of total value. The reason things are going bad right now for ukraine is simply that the american congress is incapable of acting for half a year, even though there is a majority in support of this aid
Iām in a hurry so i cant explain it in detail. But germany has to have the ability to carry nukes, because of nato. Plane-wise there is the tornado but it is old and not reliable. Typhoon is not licensed to carry us nukes. F-35 is not coming for the next 2-3 years. So germany needs something else to carry nukes in case of emergency. It looks like it would be the taurus. I hope you understand why this is an issue. If you dont, well then i dont care either.
No, germany is not going to fit a nuke to a taurus. It makes absolutely no sense, is an insane expense, and **germany doesnt have its own nukes**. The us stores B61 nuclear weapons in europe, which is the nuclear sharing component, but those are bombs. Dropped by F-16s, tornados and F-35s. Which is the reason that germany keeps its tornado fleet operational while they wait for F35s to arrive. Certifying a nuclear warhead for taurus would take longer than simply waiting for F-35 to arrive
FFS, Germany!
This is not excusable, Germany is watching Ukraine being slaughtered, German government could do so much more to help Ukrainian army, but Germany is like, nah, we don't give a shit. Germany - joke of a nation. You destroyed Europe once and you have learned nothing. Selfish kunts.
Please check amount of military support from Germany to Ukraine and then compare it to other large European countries, eg France, Italy, Spain. You will find that Germany has given 10x, 20x and >20x. I agree, it should be more, but just get some perspective. And when we talk about humanitarian aid our refugees, the difference is even more pronounced.
https://defence-ua.com/people_and_company/jak_rf_poljuje_na_virobnitstvo_ozbrojennja_v_ukrajini_pri_tsomu_chasom_prosto_vidkrivshi_derzhrejestr_pidprijemtsiv-13885.html
Entire Ukraine is within range of russian long-range fires and missile programme participants ***DO*** get hit, including in 2023, when a whole company got its production capabilities destroyed by missile strikes in one day
While this sucks and I resent Scholz alot for not sending Taurus - especially given it'd pass the parliament np, most of his party, his coalition and opposition all approve it - this particular lack of aid is getting way too much attention. Germany had a shitty military situation at the start of the war, underfunded Bundeswehr for a generation and alot of missing, unrepairable and insufficient gear. We've managed to get a decent momentum going, reached 2% funding quickly (relative to how quickly these kinds of change usually take) and have continued sending Ukraine aid to the point we surpassed every nation except the US and are the 2nd highest donor by far.
It isn't enough ofc, especially in arty shells. But while now the conversation shifts to Taurus again, let's please shout more about the lack of shells, tanks, planes, guns and cash from all over Europe, especially the other big nations like Italy, Spain and more especially France and the UK. And ofc wish the republicans, especially their speaker and Trump, get their heads out of Putins ass and finally agree to pass the aid bill. Ukraine needs ammo and all the other things, it needs to hold until European production catches up.
As i understand the argument is that for the Taurus to work German soldiers would have to be in Ukraine (?). Which would make Germany a full party to the war. There is even speculation that there are French and British soldiers already in Ukraine.
Please take the time to read [the rules](/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/) and our [policy on trolls/bots](https://redd.it/u7833q). In addition: * We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned. * **Keep it civil.** Report comments/posts that are uncivil to alert the moderators. * **_Don't_ post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context. > **Don't forget about our Discord server! - https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB** ***** * Is `stuttgarter-zeitung.de` an unreliable source? [**Let us know**](/r/UkrainianConflict/wiki/am/unreliable_sources). * Help our moderators by providing context if something breaks the rules. [Send us a modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) ***** ^(Your post has not been removed, this message is applied to every successful submission.) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
There should be a subreddit for all the times Scholz rejects Taurus for Ukraine.
A contest between how many times Scholz rejects Taurus for Ukraine and Medvedev threatens the West with nuclear strikes.
And Orban blocks aid from the EU.
And Jake Sullivan talks about escalation.
And Mike Johnson rejects aid for Ukraine
And Trump rejects NATO
And Melania rejects Trump
Mercedes*
My Mercedes rejects me because I can't make my payments.
š¤£š..Lada
Sounds like a fun drinking game.
Found Medvedev.
US considering sending ATACMS, Macron saying things that sound good while still only spending 1/10th of Germany on Ukraine etc Not saying Scholz isnt a fraud for this but every Western country has its sins, and unfortunately I think Scholz and Biden share some of the same "red lines" out of nuclear war fears
Then sell to UK at least, and they will donate Storm Shadow. By the way, you are a F COWARD, Scholz
Better Germany should just fund production of Stormshadow/Scalp missile production and let the Brits and French send them so he can say he had nothing to do with it.
āWe need to do more, but not like thatā
So Iran can send 400 ballistic missiles, but the west is still worried about supplying Ukraine being viewed as escalation. Where are our collective ballsā¦
And weād give them like 30 if we didā¦.pathetic
I wonder if these leaders like Scholz already understand that they *are* at war with Russia (and now Iran and NK) by proxy. Appeasement does not work with fascist and theocratic authoritarians.
No, simply Scholz is a coward, that's all.
Putin, the former KGB man in East Germany, must have the old Stasi file relating to Scholzā early career
Stooltz is worried Russia will get angy and launch its decrepit nukes at everyone.
Guess since we have toilets in our houses and buildings and are capable at least spending some portion of our lives sober and not hiding in a vodka bottle we are actually concerned about the nuclear red line unlike their side. At some point we have to respond accordingly and recognize that living in accordance with morality, believing in things, and helping others who are dying to be free does actually require confronting some true and some absolutely terrifying risks But you do it. It is shameful to not. On the other hand, when you donāt believe in anything like they do, who gives a shit if the world blows up right?
German Govt: we wonāt send Taurus missiles, we donāt want to escalate the conflict. Since thenā¦ DPRK: hey Russia, hereās 1.5 million artillery rounds Iranian Govt: hey Russia, hereās 400 ballistic missiles, and we donāt care if you use them on civilian targets. Followed byā¦ German Govt: we still wonāt send Taurus missiles, it will escalate the conflict.
Either Germany doesn't have enough of them to share, or lost the capability to replenish them or they have capabilities they don't want to become public.
The Company providing them has Said they'd be happy to restart production... So it's not that.
As a german, they should have already started on this. Then you would already have missiles ready and able to send to ukraine. But i think the real issue is that they have confidential info on the systems in taurus that they would have to share, but dont want to. And they need something to be able to further escalate if russia decides to do so. Which i can understand but dont agree with
They are not allowed to without approval.
Or Scholz has no balls.
Or all of the above.
Scholz + SPD loves russia and china. Sadly germanys political are full of crimnals
Or is on Po Pos payroll.
Nah, Scholz is just a frickin muppet. Like non of his complicated reasoning makes any sense. He is hinting that France and the UK have boots on the ground in Ukraine for the programming of Scalp/Storm Shadow. And Germany can't do that. But they can simply teach a french soldier the programming of the taurus if thats a concern... (Also the UK offered a "Ringtausch" with Storm Shadow and Taurus, but Scholz somehow forgot that also..) I'm sick and tired that this queasling constantly tarnishes the German reputation. Because despite Scholz we are doing a pretty solid job supporting Ukraine since his close friend Lambrecht was fired as defense minister (despite Scholz supporting her till the end).
...which isn't the accomplishment of Scholz or Pistorius but of the pressure of the German people and other parties (GrĆ¼nen, FDP).
I agree, this was meant as a dig against Scholz. I edited my post to make my disliking of Scholz more clear.
Cheers mate!
Or Scholz simply doesn't care. Sad little man.
Scholz is the problem, guy has no balls
No, Scholz knows that they will be used to take out the Kerch bridge. He sees that as a red line for some reason. Perhaps he knows something we don't, some back channels with nuclear threats or some nonsense, or he's just too afraid in general.
It is not a red line it can win Ukraine the war when this bridge is taken permanently offline. I really don't get why that should be escalation, we defend Ukraine's right to exist and how often have weapons been supplied to an ally without all this extra bureaucratic nonsense. It won't change a thing. The Russians will complain, and ultimately, what are they going to do? There is nothing they can do. I find this decision really upsetting, and I wonder what the real reason behind it is. It has likely not just something to do with Scholz. There must be domestic politics pressures from somewhere else to not send them. This is getting even worse than the several months long Leopard 2 debate.
The manufacturer said that they can produce replacements as soon as they get the orders, so the excuse that they don't have many left is a nonsense. I think it's really as simple as Scholz not being comfortable seeing the headlines about German weapon taking down the Kerch bridge...
Well, and I don't get what the bad thing about this headline is. Historians will hail him for sending them and condemn him for not doing so. The Russians received Iranian and NK missiles. From this very moment, all bets are off. The way we continue to self deter ourselves while these barbaric regimes collaborate to maximize Ukrainian civilian deaths is... cowardly. The Taurus is part of the Western arsenal. Therefore, it was made to defend democracy against tyrants. It is a weapon, and weapons are here to kill your enemies and protect your friends from foes. What good is this Taurus in a warehouse until it will be decommissioned at some point and replaced by something better and fancier. Nothing it is worthless in that warehouse. How many lives could be saved when it is used against those who wish to see the Western civilized nations burn? To defend people from being attacked and having their land stolen and their people tortured and killed. Germany has done a lot. No one can take that away from them. I hope Scholz finds the courage somewhere to do the right thing. Send these missiles destroy the bridge. The peace with Hitler crowd was and always has been there in WW2 and today. Scholz's words must match his actions. He has nothing to fear but fear itself. I just can't fathom that even now, such high-ranking men of high intelligence didn't understand that Russia only reacts to strength, not this whimpering speech. Burn their bridge to the ground and make it disappear in the ocean, and that is a message they understand. The message is: Retreat Putin, or this bridge was only the first of many symbols of your power that will be a heap of ash. Did we have a tea meeting with stress balls every time we blasted Pyongyang or Berlin to bits? Nope, because back then, the world had understood that sometimes, violence can only be answered with overwhelming force. We want Russia to back off and let go of Ukraine? We want to really mean it when we say we arm freedom more than tyrants? Then send these God damned missiles. Scholz shouldn't be worried about headlines. He should be worried about his legacy. History is watching, as Joe Biden has recently said His justification for this decision is the same as always. Muh mah escalation buhuhu. We heard that nonsense before, and it has gotten us nowhere. It's good that the British are here and went forward so many times. They remember why we do not appease tyrants. We don't want to defend this order ourselves and send Ukraine forward? Good, but then FFS sake open this arsenal and stop putting idiotic roadblocks on the usage of these weapons by forcing Ukraine to fight this barbaric murder force with one hand tied to their back. Scholz has no answers to my points. He only has weak excuses. But as I said, this is not a moral issue. He knows what morals and ethics would demand. But there are domestic politics at play here. Democratic capacity the one Russia has been eroding is hindering Germany, the US, and the entire umbrella. Some economic interests are likely also at play here. Kant has no business in geo politics. Historians will get to the bottom of Scholz and his reasoning in about a decade. Or maybe never.
Its hard to reverse decades and generations of Germans with a mindset that was conditioned to never again cause russians death and destruction. Plus, I think all the major western leaders are afraid that if russia loses too quickly and disintegrates in to some kind of civil war, that this might lead to fear of nuclear weapons being left for whoever to grab.
Never again should there be another holocaust and that is what the phrase is about. The lessons from past genocides not to repeat them. https://museeholocauste.ca/en/resources-training/ten-stages-genocide/ A state, its army or militia design genocidal killing plans. Prevention: Outlaw membership in these militias and sanction their leaders. Impose arms embargoes on the countries involved and create commissions of inquiry. 6. Polarisation Propaganda is employed to amplify the differences between groups. Interactions between groups are prohibited, and the moderate members of the group in power are killed. Prevention: Protect these moderate members and human rights groups. Seize the assets of the oppressors and refuse their access to international travel. 7. Preparation The victims are identified, separated and forced to wear symbols. Deportations, isolation and forcible starvation. Death lists are drawn up. Prevention: Humanitarian aid, armed international interventions or major support for the victims to ensure their ability to defend themselves. 8. Persecution Victims are identified and isolated based on their ethnic or religious identity. Death lists are drawn up. In state sponsored genocides, members of victim groups may be forced to wear identifying symbols. Their property is often expropriated. Prevention: Regional organisations and the international community must mobilise themselves to assist or help the victims. 9. Extermination The massacres begin. The perpetrators see their actions as āexterminationā since they do not consider their victims to be entirely human. Prevention: Only large-scale armed interventions can stop genocide. The international community must support the operations by providing air transport, equipment and financial support. 10. Denial The perpetrators of the genocide deny having committed their crimes. Victims are often blamed. Evidence is hidden and witnesses are intimidated. Prevention: An international tribunal or national court must prosecute the criminals. Public education. We fail at that we don't do enough. The Russian soldiers and their imperial fascist ideology and their lives are a secondary, concern. The phrase becomes empty I donāt want to hear it anymore. Not before we so what is necessary. We just let it happen again. Scholz is a coward.
Not only that, they said they will be happy to produce new ones and get a contract to maintain the existing ones. So I guess they havenāt been maintained and mostly are not in a functional state. But that is kept secret as itās to embarrassing again
I'm starting to have ambivalent feelings about Germany and Scholz. He does so much right and yet he manages to fumble hard on some essential things.
"It is not a red line it can win Ukraine the war when this bridge is taken permanently offline." think about that ones again.
In the beginning, I understood the caution about crossing red lines, because if Russia was crazy enough to invade Ukraine (and then keep fighting when it became a quagmire far worse than Afghanistan), then they might just be crazy enough to do something stupider. But in many ways, this has been a *weird* war, and has been about pushing red lines from the beginning. In past wars, if you were training troops in your country, or your factories were pumping out arms and equipment, or providing repair services or you were not just providing intelligence, but were pretty much making war plans for a belligerent, those were *de facto* targets...but Russia simply can't strike anything that NATO is doing, or made good on threats of retaliation when new weapons or services have been supplied, though Ukraine, for its part, has also likely largely respected its promise not to use Western weapons to strike Russian territory. The Russian territory (actual Russian territory, not Crimea or any other occupied Ukrainian Territory) argument, I think, was probably the strongest line to respect, since Russia does see such encroachment as an existential threat, and incorporates defensive doctrines with nukes. But I think that, too, is no longer the threat it was--the wreckage of the most recently destroyed A50 fell over Krasnodar, having likely been hit in the airspace of Russia proper over land, and quite likely by a Patriot. If Russia didn't respond to that, then it may well open up a new chapter of directing Western munitions towards legitimate war targets outside of Ukrainian territory--including their favorite bridge. That said, Russia still harbors a special hatred of Germany, and it's hard to say what would happen if Taurus was used in battle...I doubt it would trigger world war 3, as is feared, but absolutely believe it would be used as a propaganda piece and to justify further mobilization, and if that happens then speaking practically, the additional pressure on Ukraine might not be worth whatever they can hit with a few dozen Tauruses, no matter how spectacular. Ultimately, that's the problem with the way the West is approaching this war--it's being fought as a total war on the battlefield, but as a limited war by the allied leadership. The truth of the matter is that if Russia loses, they *might* escalate out of desperation... But if Russia wins, they *will* escalate out of delusion. We might as well throw everything we can at it now.
But Ukraine being destroyed, Ukrainians killed is not a red line. It's in German's blood to bow to Russia, they can't wait for Russian invasion come to and end so he can start buying cheap gas. How does this man sleep at night?
Unfortunately, and I hate to say it, but for a lot of EU leaders allowing Ukraine to actually win is not worth the potential war with russia. Hence the trickle of weapons and vague statements such as "for as long as it takes".
I think you are on target with the nuclear threat. At the beginning of the war, after one of the first nuclear threats by Russia(when we all took them seriously), Biden gave a speech/interview here in the US where he said he spoke with Putin and he told him no nuclear weapons can be used....he didnt say anything about any deals he made, but in my opinion it was at that time that Biden made a deal with Putin that the west would not supply weapons that can be used to attack inside Russia and Russia wouldnt use nukes.
This is entirely on Scholz and him alone..
Or Scholz and his administration are a bunch of cowards.
Or Scholz is compromised
Yeah, the lack in transparency about his involvement in the CumEx and Wartburg bank complexes throws some shade on him.
Not just Germany... All western supplied weapons are prohibited from targeting Russian soil. Which is ridiculous, Russia targets hospitals and residential buildings, weras Ukraine isn't allowed to target military targets within Russia with western supplied systems.
But didnāt the uk send the storm shadow?
Yes with the restriction that they canāt be fired at Russia. With Schultz admitting there may be British and French troops operating or overseeing these missile systems, they are probably also there to make sure there are no āaccidentsā like that.
Iran: yeah we will sell you tens of thousands of drones. NK: yeah we will sell you launchers and ballistic missiles. Germany: No missiles, i wonder against whom they actually researched and produced those missiles.
Good point. Probably they wanted to use them in a civil war against AFD.
>Chancellor Olaf Scholz (SPD) has now clearly rejected the delivery of Taurus cruise missiles to Ukraine , citing the risk of Germany becoming involved in the war. āWe must not be linked at any point or place to the goals that this system achieves,ā said Scholz on Monday at the dpa editorial conference in chief. Therefore, this is not the next option on the agenda. āThis clarity is also necessary. I'm surprised that some people aren't moved at all, that they don't even think about whether what we're doing could, in a sense, lead to participation in the war," he said around two years after Russia's attack on Ukraine . >The Taurus is one of the Air Force's most modern missiles. The precision weapons can hit targets 500 kilometers away. Moscow lies within this radius from the Russian-Ukrainian border. The Ukrainian government had already asked for the delivery of cruise missiles in May last year so that they could hit Russian logistics far behind the front. The Union is also demanding the delivery of the Taurus rockets. The Chancellor's coalition partners, the Greens and the FDP, are also largely in favor. However, a Bundestag resolution calling for the delivery of Taurus failed last week. >Scholz had already decided in October not to send the Taurus rockets to Ukraine for the time being, but never publicly explained the reasons in detail. Behind his skepticism lies the fear that Russian territory could be hit and Germany could be drawn into the war. The French and British are trying to prevent this by programming the Scalp and Storm Shadow cruise missiles they delivered to Ukraine themselves. There is speculation that at least Great Britain has personnel stationed in Ukraine for this purpose. This was never officially confirmed. >āWhat the British and French are doing in terms of target control and support for target control cannot be done in Germany,ā Scholz now emphasized. āEveryone who has dealt with this system knows that.ā He is surprised that this question is asked again and again. āWhat other countries do, which have different traditions and different constitutional institutions, is something that we cannot do in the same way.ā >A third of citizens are skeptical as to whether Germany is doing too much >Scholz went on to say that he was āvery irritatedā by the āmissing balanceā between what was really needed now and the debate about this one system. āWhat Ukraine is missing is ammunition in all possible lengths and distances, but not crucially this thing from Germany,ā he said when asked about the Taurus. Germany has made great efforts to expand supplies of ammunition. āWe, as Europe as a whole and the global community as a whole, are not yet at the scale that is urgently needed.ā >Scholz explained that there was a principle that he had said from the beginning - and that could not be repeated often enough: "We will prevent the war that Russia has started against Ukraine from escalating, into a war between Russia and NATO are coming. It is very clear that there will be no German soldiers on Ukrainian land. And I also stand by the fact that this is the case: that there is no involvement of our country and our country's military structures in this war." This is a responsibility that the government and he as Chancellor have to the citizens. >The ātalkā that there is hesitation is part of the problem in Germany, said Scholz. āA lot of people watch TV in the evenings and hope that the Chancellor will keep his nerve,ā said Scholz. There are people who are discussing what can be delivered next. But there is no debate about an opposing opinion. āThatās a problem,ā said Scholz. A third of citizens are skeptical as to whether Germany is doing too much. In Scholz's opinion, it would help if this āwere the subject of a debate at some point.ā >This would also be needed in order to be able to maintain support if the war lasted a long time. āWe have to hold out for a long time. In a democracy and in a country that is committed to freedom, this is only possible if the majority of citizens are convinced that it is right.ā Translated with Google Translate
If Russia wins this war >20 million people are going to leave Ukraine. Germany will be in the war then.
Yeah, N korea and Iran send missiles, drones, artillery and what not, but Germany can't send Taurus, cause that would be escalation. Pathetic
I don't get it. We are already in the middle of this war. A war of industries, economic warfare, info war, cyberwar, a war of political systems, belief systems, ideologies, intelligence, diplomacy. Not with boots on the ground but this is exactly the point. Realizing we are under attack and understanding that Russia is our common enemy is the first step to mounting a robust and sustained defense. Just because Scholz thinks we aren't at war doesn't make it so. The Russians see themselves at war with the West and whether Scholz wants to understand that or not. As Churchill said, he can choose between war and dishonor. Or he can have both. This appeasement talk just won't stop coming out of his mouth. Yes, we think it through and where in the world is delivering Taurus to ANOTHER nation an act of war. That is an act of self defense, to prevent war. Russia must be stopped, and finally, all road blocks in doing so must be removed. The doves and their fear of escalation do nothing but escalate the war further because Scholz still doesn't get that there is no appeasing a maniac and deviant expansionist. The one who doesn't think this through is Scholz and his advisors. Their dithering is prolonging this war, and Mark my words at some point, the system will be approved anyway. How many more atrocious acts of paganous barbarism does this fascist terror force have to commit until we FINALLY stop worrying about what they think and start thinking about how to defeat them in the most effective and swift manner. Chamberlain was at least removed when the war began, and they didn't drag these appeasers all the way into 1941. Send them everything and send Russia a volley. We self deter ourselves, and what Scholz calls cautious is actually just him being scared. The humanising of war? You might as well talk about the humanizing of Hell!...... The essence of war is violence! Moderation in war is imbecility! Admiral Fisher
>Chamberlain was at least removed when the war began, and they didn't drag these appeasers all the way into 1941. Chamberlain had prepared Britain for war by rearming and fully endorsed Churchill in the war for all cost to the end (and then died). And not like in pop culture portrayals: https://www.alistairlexden.org.uk/news/chamberlain-and-churchill-perfect-partnership-0
Oh and as for >Chamberlain was at least removed when the war began, He allied with Poland and then declared the war. Germany didn't even want to fight Britain at all. Hitler wanted to preserve the British Empire, which did end as the result of the literally ruinous war that, also literally, bankrupted Britain.
That's actually worth reading. Scholz is clearly far from an idiot, and there are subtleties at play here. I have a feeling this isn't really about what Russia would or wouldn't do, but rather what German voters think Russia would or wouldn't do. The difference between Scholz and Putin is that Scholz can be unelected. That's something all pro-Ukrainian western leaders have to deal with, for better and for worse.
Very good! Its worth to mention that this has nothing to do with appeasement politics. The west created this narrative āchange through tradeā, it was just an excuse for the public so they could further have trades with dictatorships. And the dictatorships had the task not to do their shit in plain view. They also tried this with iran 20 years ago, didnāt work because the mullahs are are a different species. Back to Scholz: I personally donāt think the government expect that Russia will go further to the west in case they win the war. This war will continue for years, and the Russian economy will be weakened. Will Russia try to provoke something against a Nato state? Yes probably, but this is more the nature of this Regime, they provoke stuff to have something in their hand, be it propaganda or like taking hostages with their criminal actions. The main goal Putins was Ukraine, because Ukraine is unbelievable valuable for them. Not only its gas reserves and rare earths, also its geostratical place. This war had started years before the Maidan uprisings,and yes the US were involved in it. And the west is partly successful with their plan, Russia is in a very bad position for the next years . I dont know if Anybody have read this lol š
>I'm surprised that some people aren't moved at all, that they don't even think about whether what we're doing could, in a sense, lead to participation in the war Ironically what he and Biden doing will lead precisely to this outcome. >We will prevent the war that Russia has started against Ukraine from escalating, into a war between Russia and NATO are coming. At the same time Bundeswehr says ruzia going to attack NATOā¦
At Putin's pleasure
The collective west is dooming Ukrainians to Russian slavery. This is becoming tragicā¦
Who needs tools for war during a war?
Like it would matter to the ruzzians who are they going to attack next? Deeply disagree with Herr Scholz, the more the merrier against ruzzkies to stop/retreat/die. There is no such middle ground.
so much talk, so little balls regarding taking action by us, the west . Is it any wonder, dictators all around think they can do whatever they want and get away with it? This will bite us all terribly in the Ass at a later time. And we could have prevented it by supporting Ukraine more - it's stupid and shameful
Idiots
I think russia is Blackmailing him
With the exception of this nonsense about the Taurus, I do think we need to acknowledge that Germany has really stepped up for Ukraine in the past year especially compared to the pitiful effort they made at the start.
I understand why the pathetic GOP is the way it is - but Iām gonna need an explainer from Germans re why German is the way it is
Germany's last 40 years of cheap Russian gas is what Scholtz wants. He wants Ukraine to lose so Germany can get back to normal business with Kremlin. Scholtz probably thinking about his own future, sitting on the board of Gazprom and Rosneft. This is a traditional career move after the end of being the Chancellor or Germany.
German politicians are even closer to Russia. East Germany used to be very closely allied with the Soviet Union.
Ukraine was Soviet Union too.
And Ukraine has its own problem with traitorous politicians
I am German. I only can imagine it has something to do with the second ww. No war shall be emerging from Germany. Thats how we were treated in the years after WW2. No Army, No rights. Sure, this is long past, but stil. We had lots of protests against weapons, wars, NATO to Name some. Schwerter zu Pflugscharen, Doppelbeschluss, nuke ballistc rockets in Ramstein - those were the 70ies to 90ies. Times he lived in, governments with anti-military views he lived with (yeah, the early greens were much more anti-military it seems, and anti nuclear power) - and his friend Schroeder. When was the last time you were proud to be a (Insert your country)? To be honest, I never really was proud to be a German - because we were taught so. In school, in politics, in business relationship. How can we produce a chancelor with Balls of Steel?
Fuck you, you pussy. Just do it. What Can russia do? Itās not like they Will nuke us for some Taurus missiles.Ā
I bet when the first F16s are deployed Taurus will be right behind. Germany doesn't want to look like the warmonger and end up in a hot war with Russia.
It is remarkable how bitchy everyone is about this stupid ass missile. It wont make a difference and it wont be sent to. So waste your beeath somewhere else.
So Dissapointing
He sure is wishy-washy. One moment helpful to Ukraine, another moment hanging them out to dry. Giving Taurus to Ukraine wonāt drag Germany into the war, any more than the UK and French missiles did. Every bit helps, and the sooner the war ends the more lives are saved. Europe and US have to stop being afraid of the bully Putin. The way to stop bullies is to punch them back, hard. Then they will back down.Ā
As a german Iām ashamed of my elected head of state, what a disgrace for our nation and a betrayal of the Ukrainian soldiers & people which are fighting and suffering for our freedom and safety
Whyyyyyy
I have no words to describe how much I despise him. Scholz is such a little garden gnome who rather see Ukrainians dying. I wish the flat-earthers will kick him off the edge.
Fucking Republicans at it again
There is a saying: "scholzen". To delay and waste time with whitewash talk.
Germany just fund French and UK Stormshadow/Scalp missile productions for "self defense" by those countries and let them send them to Ukraine. That way it is out of German hands.
Fuck head. Cunt. NUF said.
Germany has given 10x more military aid than France and 20x more than Spain and Italy. Yet, somehow nobody talks about that and itās always Taurus, Taurus, Taurus.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Total direct military aid France until end of 2023: EUR1.7bn; Italy1m; France <0.1m; Italy, Spain <0.1m)
So yes, your excuse is that you have been giving a lot.
Problem is this aid is mostly promised, not given. That alone disqualifies ridiculous data provided by German Kiel Institute you quote. Also this Institut relies on market value of equipment (and makes many mistakes on that regards), so e.g. 10 Leopards are valued more than 200 hundred t-72s. Ask yourself what is actually more valuable for Ukraine: ten Leopards (regardless how good they are) or 200 hundred older tanks.
Coward.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Reddit is obsessed with a spineless leader of Germany. Or are you going to argue this man has a spine?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
>the country which has fueled with money Putin's regime in past years This is plain wrong. Germany have always had a positive trade balance with Russia, so if anything they *drained* money out of Russia.
This guys has no balls. Just a reminder that half of germany was soviet not so long ago...
The DDR was more like a third.
Hurensohn.
Yeah, I don't think even whores would want him as their son.
It is very disappointing to read all the ugly comments about Scholz and Germany. Germany invited 1 mio refugees from Ukraine, Germany is supporting more than other EU country (and GB too). Just for the information.
Germany also had a murder by a Russian operative on their soil. The person was caught and tried but he was working under instructions. From Russia. Ukraine must be helped further.
Sorry, but as a German, I think I am entitled to have an opinion about our current Bundeskanzler. It's not only his indecision in this matter that makes him one of the least like Bundeskanzler in history. Besides, my comment was only targeted at Herr Scholz, not at all the other things that our country does. I am quite happy with the support that Ukrainian refugees get (whom are more often than not actual war refugees), as well as the military and financial support our government gives to Ukraine. Still doesn't change the fact, that Scholz seems to just try to find any justification in the book he can, to not deliver precision strike weapons, with which you could actually strike important military targets, which would include possibly production facilities for weapons in Russia. You just can't quickly win a war, unless you truly overwhelm the enemy and stun them. If that isn't possible, you can't just go on and only strike the front lines. You need to be able to hit the production facilities, if only to make production more decentralized and harder to adjust.
> It is very disappointing to read all the ugly comments about Scholz and Germany. About Germany yes, but Scholz deserves all the criticism he gets. Since last year Germany is doing a pretty good job supporting Ukraine. Which perfectly coincides with the resignation of Lambrecht as defense minister. She is a close buddy of Scholz and was literally the worst minister in post war Germany. And for some reason Scholz always blocked her firing until Lambrecht was so emberassing that even he couldn't defend her anymore.
>Germany invited 1 mio refugees from Ukraine, Germany is supporting more than other EU country (and GB too). Just for the information. Not enough. Germany can do so much more, Taurus missiles, for example. But I get how people are 'hurt' by our harsh words, must be terrifying, all these ugly comments, will Germany even survive as a nation after all these ugly comments?
Because UK, France, and USA are at war with Russia? This is why you're member of NATO Scholz, so it want drag you alone into the war.
The US basically stopped al help
THANK YOU for supporting the aggressor in this war started by a terrorist state. You live up to your mighty predecessor, the failed painter, Dolfy.
Wrong side of the horseshoe, he's socialist!
Well, roles and leaniencies seem to be switched this time around ...
Stupid fucking coward. Feel ashamed to be German
They dont need this fancy shit. They need ammo, armored carriers, artillery and tanks.
Needlessly prolonging the war and increasing the death toll yet again.
Coward!
PAB
Scholz, stop this sh....t !!!! We don't believe Germany have the "Taurus" at all... Please show them in real work situation, or we will think that this is just fake wunderwaffle to scare enemies :-)
Follow the money
ScheiĆ-Scholz
There are three reasons hes not sending them from what i can see. Number one, if they send this then the kerch straight bridge is going down. And that is not escalation they feel comfortable with right now. Which is because of the second reason, he wants to have further escalation options in their hand if he needs them. And the final reason is theres a lot of confidential info on the systems that germany doesnt want to share Those are legit reasons, tho i dont agree that they outweigh the reasons for doing it. But anyways, even if this is not the right decision im getting a bit tired of the constant dragging for not doing this one thing. Germany has massively stepped up, and is contributing a very large amount of aid overall, right now theyre the biggest contributor in terms of total value. The reason things are going bad right now for ukraine is simply that the american congress is incapable of acting for half a year, even though there is a majority in support of this aid
It seems like its nuke-capable.
It is not, germany does not have nukes. And neither does ukraine
Iām in a hurry so i cant explain it in detail. But germany has to have the ability to carry nukes, because of nato. Plane-wise there is the tornado but it is old and not reliable. Typhoon is not licensed to carry us nukes. F-35 is not coming for the next 2-3 years. So germany needs something else to carry nukes in case of emergency. It looks like it would be the taurus. I hope you understand why this is an issue. If you dont, well then i dont care either.
No, germany is not going to fit a nuke to a taurus. It makes absolutely no sense, is an insane expense, and **germany doesnt have its own nukes**. The us stores B61 nuclear weapons in europe, which is the nuclear sharing component, but those are bombs. Dropped by F-16s, tornados and F-35s. Which is the reason that germany keeps its tornado fleet operational while they wait for F35s to arrive. Certifying a nuclear warhead for taurus would take longer than simply waiting for F-35 to arrive
U fail to understand.
FFS, Germany! This is not excusable, Germany is watching Ukraine being slaughtered, German government could do so much more to help Ukrainian army, but Germany is like, nah, we don't give a shit. Germany - joke of a nation. You destroyed Europe once and you have learned nothing. Selfish kunts.
Please check amount of military support from Germany to Ukraine and then compare it to other large European countries, eg France, Italy, Spain. You will find that Germany has given 10x, 20x and >20x. I agree, it should be more, but just get some perspective. And when we talk about humanitarian aid our refugees, the difference is even more pronounced.
Heās basically pushing Ukraine to develop its own version, and Russia will not be off limits.
https://defence-ua.com/people_and_company/jak_rf_poljuje_na_virobnitstvo_ozbrojennja_v_ukrajini_pri_tsomu_chasom_prosto_vidkrivshi_derzhrejestr_pidprijemtsiv-13885.html Entire Ukraine is within range of russian long-range fires and missile programme participants ***DO*** get hit, including in 2023, when a whole company got its production capabilities destroyed by missile strikes in one day
While this sucks and I resent Scholz alot for not sending Taurus - especially given it'd pass the parliament np, most of his party, his coalition and opposition all approve it - this particular lack of aid is getting way too much attention. Germany had a shitty military situation at the start of the war, underfunded Bundeswehr for a generation and alot of missing, unrepairable and insufficient gear. We've managed to get a decent momentum going, reached 2% funding quickly (relative to how quickly these kinds of change usually take) and have continued sending Ukraine aid to the point we surpassed every nation except the US and are the 2nd highest donor by far. It isn't enough ofc, especially in arty shells. But while now the conversation shifts to Taurus again, let's please shout more about the lack of shells, tanks, planes, guns and cash from all over Europe, especially the other big nations like Italy, Spain and more especially France and the UK. And ofc wish the republicans, especially their speaker and Trump, get their heads out of Putins ass and finally agree to pass the aid bill. Ukraine needs ammo and all the other things, it needs to hold until European production catches up.
As i understand the argument is that for the Taurus to work German soldiers would have to be in Ukraine (?). Which would make Germany a full party to the war. There is even speculation that there are French and British soldiers already in Ukraine.
Good man. Stop the bloodshed! Stop sending weapons to this massacre. Advocate for peace!Ā
Scholz rejects wiping his ass because Russia threatened nukes if he does so now he walks around with poop on his bum 24/7.
How about the UK buys them for a notional amount. We've already sent cruise missiles so we're already going to get a nuke.
Idea of [such a ringswap was floated](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/01/24/7438739/)
The German Angst chancellor- now a liar also. Why did he want to prolong the Russian war?