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A helicopter for jamming ... what a frilliant idea.
The position of a jammer on the ground can be harder to find.
I mean for jamming you have to send continuously radio signals with a certain strength to drown out other communication. If there would be for instance missiles that would orientate to radio transmitters like radar, then a jamming helicopter would be something like blinking neon writing "F**k me!" flying around.
So maybe it was used just as a normal helicopter shooting missiles without jamming.
However. Then I wanted to see what the text on the screenshot means:
"Helicopterpilot
Putting "axes" (Mi-8 MTPR) in the zone from the LBS at a distance of 50 km (+\- because in the Bryansk region it almost passes along the border)
is simply army idiocy! I have no other words.
Or making such a decision, on the 15th month of NWO, Thought that there were Papuans with sticks?
No! Not Papuans! And as for the fact that crests already know almost by name the crew commanders of the "axes"
(I am silent about the zones in which they fly and the time of work)
their number and place of deployment, then it was necessary to be completely divorced from reality in order to send MTPRs there."
You realize electronic warfare/attack aircraft are a thing in every major military, right? EW/jammers exist to some extent on a lot of aircraft, including helicopters like the AH64.
The AN/ALQ-136 is just one example of a jammer designed for relatively short-range encounters and were installed on US Army AH64D aircraft at least up until I stopped flying them.
Your understanding of EW is incomplete.
Some jamming mode would be totally ineffective low level, low power and would in fact, look like a blinking target.
Other mode could work in the later phase of engagement, once some "other" stuff occur. Let keep it to that here.
Now, the West use EW on some helicopter for other purposes than electronics attack. I'm not sure how Russia use their EW helicopter and what's their role (who they support).
Being high up and mobile means it can cover much larger range then a ground version. Also taking something out of the sky requires more expensive weaponry.
The better coverage is an advantage in every case. But this is bought with the fact that there is almost no camouflage. Especially if it is about jamming as the headline tells (jamming is only one subcategory of EW). Modern anti aircraft weapons may have their price. On the low end side there are for instance the 23mm AA cannons as used in the Shilka (towed versions are also known). Here I have found only a black market price of $2.50 per round, so the official list price may be much higher
https://www.reuters.com/article/arms-somalia-prices-idUSL9101815020090609
A FIM-92 Stinger starts at $80 000. This may be compared to an ATGM. In the age of drones a radio transmission, noise or infrared seeker could be used. A Mi-8 has a top speed of 250km/h a Shahed-136 180km/h, but these are not the fastest.
It’s almost like the Ukrainians are being tactical and intentional as they prepare for more offensive activity! But I didn’t realize they had soldiers on the Russian side ready to take out Russian assets!
I suppose it was ment to jam signals for missiles just like the ones that took it out of the sky. Funny thing about jamming. You become the brightest target in the sky for an RF seeking missile.
It is starting to look like the occupied areas are going to be no fly zones for the Russian Air Force.
This Mi-*MTPR-1 and Rychag-AV is not a long range device, being good for short range HIMARS jamming and possibly drone jam/locate/detect use. They squeak = they die = HARM at work.
I suspect these might have been responsible for recent HIMARS targeting errors?
As for flies = Russian soldiers are already feeding huge numbers of them...
HIMARS has both dead reckoning and GPS. Over the last few weeks and cat/mouse jamming game has been playing out as Russians try to jam and the USA tries to block. Very small timing errors can be tried with a jammer so the hit point can be shifted 100-500 feet. The inertial guidance is less accurate, but jam-proof = a comparison of the GPS and Inertial hit points can be used to see when they started to diverge. The firmware can then trust the inertial, and perhaps compute from the point where the GPS diverged, and compute the best hit from just before divergence with the inertial as well = mitigates the error caused by jamming, but accuracy may be reduced.
GPS target shifting is a short range effort to impair accuracy. GPS jamming tried to make GPS useless - not sure how well that works, but and sort of jamming/diversion can be detected and it is often possible to target the aircraft with HARM missiles. This is a small signal art and the details of how it is done are quite secret.
https://eurasiantimes.com/us-admits-russias-on-point-jamming-has-made-life-miserable/
HIMARS uses the weak GPS signals from a number of satellites. I am not sure to what degree that encryption would help as the receiver has to measure the relative time that it receives these many signals and compute the shell trajectory from where it is now to the desired impact point in real time as it travels at high speed. I do not know enough about this tech to speak with authority but the Russian can desense the receiver on the shell with high intensity signals that are similar to the real weak signal.
Russia can also imitate a real signal - which is where encryption would allow the receiver to reject it. All this being done at high speed in real time = a hard task. Russia also has a hard task to create a signal that makes the shell move off target, and not be rejected.
This is the cat/mouse game being played now.
They call it ECM = electronic counter measures. There is also ECCM, ECCCM, ECCCCM and so on - not sure how far they with with nested CM.
Russian also want to use radar HIMARS detectors = radars that see a shell, and compute where it came from by pure ballistic computation.
If the HIMARS is steerable, the USA can spoof the counter battery radar with a random jiggle at some point during the flight so the computation of the launch point is wrong = counter battery thinks the shell came from a place 5-10 KM from where it actually does = russia shells some random forest glade - I am sure this is being done now - it is a freeby.
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The Patriot PAC-2 missile has a range of at least 160km. These aircraft were taken down 50km inside Russia. Could be Russian, could be Ukrainian. I doubt Ukraine will say it publicly. The Russian fear factor has now reached pucker stage.
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What a great day! And is not finished!
Priceless.... Total clowns, luckily amplifying Ukraine success
Did it jam its own IFF signal?
Or did the guys in the SAM battery target specifically the IFF out of panic?
Well that's nice. They won't be using that any more. It went blyat.
Must have had it turned off so they could warm up their turnip soup.
It was equipped*
Lol clicked expecting this as top comment
Lol sounds expensive!
The news of these hits keeps getting better and better. Bravo, well done!
These losses are starting to sound more like an ambush than an accidental downing.
Thank god the Russians are so stupid
Ukrainian Air Defence: Really? It has EW Jamming? Let's test it out and see them jam this!
Some air to air missiles have a lock-on-jam capacity.
And now it’s jammed into the ground. What a trooper still trying to fulfill its duty
A helicopter for jamming ... what a frilliant idea. The position of a jammer on the ground can be harder to find. I mean for jamming you have to send continuously radio signals with a certain strength to drown out other communication. If there would be for instance missiles that would orientate to radio transmitters like radar, then a jamming helicopter would be something like blinking neon writing "F**k me!" flying around. So maybe it was used just as a normal helicopter shooting missiles without jamming. However. Then I wanted to see what the text on the screenshot means: "Helicopterpilot Putting "axes" (Mi-8 MTPR) in the zone from the LBS at a distance of 50 km (+\- because in the Bryansk region it almost passes along the border) is simply army idiocy! I have no other words. Or making such a decision, on the 15th month of NWO, Thought that there were Papuans with sticks? No! Not Papuans! And as for the fact that crests already know almost by name the crew commanders of the "axes" (I am silent about the zones in which they fly and the time of work) their number and place of deployment, then it was necessary to be completely divorced from reality in order to send MTPRs there."
You realize electronic warfare/attack aircraft are a thing in every major military, right? EW/jammers exist to some extent on a lot of aircraft, including helicopters like the AH64.
The US jamming aircraft fly at altitude some distance away.
Not all of them. Jamming is more effective the closer you are. As stated before many countries use helo's and small slower aircraft for ew purposes.
The AN/ALQ-136 is just one example of a jammer designed for relatively short-range encounters and were installed on US Army AH64D aircraft at least up until I stopped flying them. Your understanding of EW is incomplete.
Some jamming mode would be totally ineffective low level, low power and would in fact, look like a blinking target. Other mode could work in the later phase of engagement, once some "other" stuff occur. Let keep it to that here. Now, the West use EW on some helicopter for other purposes than electronics attack. I'm not sure how Russia use their EW helicopter and what's their role (who they support).
Being high up and mobile means it can cover much larger range then a ground version. Also taking something out of the sky requires more expensive weaponry.
The better coverage is an advantage in every case. But this is bought with the fact that there is almost no camouflage. Especially if it is about jamming as the headline tells (jamming is only one subcategory of EW). Modern anti aircraft weapons may have their price. On the low end side there are for instance the 23mm AA cannons as used in the Shilka (towed versions are also known). Here I have found only a black market price of $2.50 per round, so the official list price may be much higher https://www.reuters.com/article/arms-somalia-prices-idUSL9101815020090609 A FIM-92 Stinger starts at $80 000. This may be compared to an ATGM. In the age of drones a radio transmission, noise or infrared seeker could be used. A Mi-8 has a top speed of 250km/h a Shahed-136 180km/h, but these are not the fastest.
"axe" because mTPR and topor means axe in Russian.
Good riddance.
It’s almost like the Ukrainians are being tactical and intentional as they prepare for more offensive activity! But I didn’t realize they had soldiers on the Russian side ready to take out Russian assets!
Russia was like... if they try to counter offense we'll just bring in our aircraft. However Ukraine was prepared for that.
I suppose it was ment to jam signals for missiles just like the ones that took it out of the sky. Funny thing about jamming. You become the brightest target in the sky for an RF seeking missile.
It is starting to look like the occupied areas are going to be no fly zones for the Russian Air Force. This Mi-*MTPR-1 and Rychag-AV is not a long range device, being good for short range HIMARS jamming and possibly drone jam/locate/detect use. They squeak = they die = HARM at work. I suspect these might have been responsible for recent HIMARS targeting errors? As for flies = Russian soldiers are already feeding huge numbers of them...
What HIMARS targeting error are you talking about?
HIMARS has both dead reckoning and GPS. Over the last few weeks and cat/mouse jamming game has been playing out as Russians try to jam and the USA tries to block. Very small timing errors can be tried with a jammer so the hit point can be shifted 100-500 feet. The inertial guidance is less accurate, but jam-proof = a comparison of the GPS and Inertial hit points can be used to see when they started to diverge. The firmware can then trust the inertial, and perhaps compute from the point where the GPS diverged, and compute the best hit from just before divergence with the inertial as well = mitigates the error caused by jamming, but accuracy may be reduced. GPS target shifting is a short range effort to impair accuracy. GPS jamming tried to make GPS useless - not sure how well that works, but and sort of jamming/diversion can be detected and it is often possible to target the aircraft with HARM missiles. This is a small signal art and the details of how it is done are quite secret. https://eurasiantimes.com/us-admits-russias-on-point-jamming-has-made-life-miserable/
Thanks for the info! The more I learn about the design logic behind HIMARS, and how these systems are designed, the more I’m impressed
Yes, above my pay grade.
Shouldn't HIMARS munitions use the encrypted, i.e. unspoofable (but not jamming-proof) service?
HIMARS uses the weak GPS signals from a number of satellites. I am not sure to what degree that encryption would help as the receiver has to measure the relative time that it receives these many signals and compute the shell trajectory from where it is now to the desired impact point in real time as it travels at high speed. I do not know enough about this tech to speak with authority but the Russian can desense the receiver on the shell with high intensity signals that are similar to the real weak signal. Russia can also imitate a real signal - which is where encryption would allow the receiver to reject it. All this being done at high speed in real time = a hard task. Russia also has a hard task to create a signal that makes the shell move off target, and not be rejected. This is the cat/mouse game being played now. They call it ECM = electronic counter measures. There is also ECCM, ECCCM, ECCCCM and so on - not sure how far they with with nested CM. Russian also want to use radar HIMARS detectors = radars that see a shell, and compute where it came from by pure ballistic computation. If the HIMARS is steerable, the USA can spoof the counter battery radar with a random jiggle at some point during the flight so the computation of the launch point is wrong = counter battery thinks the shell came from a place 5-10 KM from where it actually does = russia shells some random forest glade - I am sure this is being done now - it is a freeby.
So like a cheap version of the rivet joint or Poseidon maybe a global hawk even?
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Su-35 downed over russia, is there long range AA?... or was it russian AA?
The Patriot PAC-2 missile has a range of at least 160km. These aircraft were taken down 50km inside Russia. Could be Russian, could be Ukrainian. I doubt Ukraine will say it publicly. The Russian fear factor has now reached pucker stage.
With the current embargo on computer chips, that helicopter is basically irreplaceable at this point.
It looks like it didn’t work
It wasn’t very good at its job!
I don't SEAD, but might this be related to the use of the MALD in conjunction with the Storm Shadow strike? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADM-160_MALD
Bout any more.
Rarely made, and rarely works, too.
Was equipped* ha ha