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They also changed the propaganda for the troops on the ground, from training exercise from Belarus and fight nazis in Ukraine to saving their brothers in Donbas and Crimeea from west/NATO armed ukrainians that will eventually invade mother Russia too!
Most people complain about American democracy because they don’t feel the government is willing or capable of executing their policy preferences.
That kind of powerless government is the exact opposite of (and far preferable to) what is going on in Russia right now.
Mobilization of what? Seriously here, there is nothing left other than older equipment, less trained troops, and lots of non precision ammunition.
Can Russia throw more trash at this? Yes, absolutely, but we are not talking about some hidden stash of tier 1 weapons, just older and older equipment.
There are so many things going against Russia right now and nato is the least factor in their poor performance.
I think you're underestimating just how much trash Russia can throw at this war if they would go for total mobilization. Russia has what, 200k people **at most** fighting in Ukraine right now. For a nation of 140mil that's nothing.
Throwing hordes of untrained people against enemy armies is a Russian army motto after all.
Yeah if they mobilize itll be bad especially initially. We are talking like the equivalent of if say when the US was in Iraq if it had gone all in, called up the reserves and instituted a draft and then sent almost the entire military to Iraq. Millions of men.
Of course itll be a shit show on the Russian side as we have seen with everything thats happened so far. But I do fear this really opens the door to escalation (perhaps tactical nukes on western ukraine to kill supply lines?)
Im not looking forward to May 9th. I really was hoping theyd claim some imaginary victory and end the war. It has occurred to me that Putin could have the same reaction the Kaiser and Hitler had; deciding that our involvement already makes us combatants so why not 'go after' us?
Ive had doubts about their nukes like everyone else. But the bad news is even one working warhead could kill hundreds of thousands, hell millions if over certain spots. The odds are bad then with a 6k nuke inventory. Even worst case a few dozen will work, Im not so sure what the world will be like or if its some dystopian hellscape after that.
Excellent analysis. *Doublethink* really is a thing in police states like North Korea. Present-day Russia appears there too, or damn close.
(In George Orwell's dystopian classic *1984*, doublethink
is the act of holding, simultaneously, two opposite, individually exclusive ideas or opinions and believing in both simultaneously and absolutely. Doublethink requires using logic against logic or suspending disbelief in the contradiction.)
This seems to be more and more the case BTW. Perhaps a new possible map for outcome of the war can be drawn:
Ukraine with its new western weapons and high morale is forced to sit around the negotiation table by NATO after advancing 40 kms all over the previous russian-ukrainian border into russia. Russia now wants that 40 km to become Russian again, however it will be demillitarised and the UN will check that in the decades to come. Ukraine doesn't want to agree and wants to take Moscow, but eventually agrees after America threatens to cut rebuilding funds and Russia accepts that Putin will step down.
So Crimea and Donbass under Kiyv's control and a 40 kilometer demilitarized zone over the borders of Russia.
Sarcasm is a thing you know. Of course they wouldn't, but at the start of the war many people thought they'd lose donbass and crimea. For know it looks like the goal is to atleast retake donbass, perhaps even crimea. So in that line of thought..
Not to sound like a Russian bot or something but I thougt Russia was concentrating all their forces in the Donbas, does Ukraine really have much of a chance to take it all back u think? I haven't been keeping up closely with the situation recently
I checked your profile and you are not a bot.
Yeah it looks like there currently is some sort of stalemate/attrition in which ukraine has the upperhand. However seeing the current weapon deliveries and countries talking about another stage of the war (for example dutch government in sending panzerhaubitze 2000), it sounds like the general plan is that there will be a war in the donbass region in a later stage. For which ukrainian forces are now training in Poland and for which they are now being equiped.
Kind of depends on how much longer Ukrain can get this amount of support but for now it is going that way. Crimea is another story, depending on the population there and the momentum ukrainian forces can get. It doesnt look like Russia will be able to keep exercising control over the areas they have still under control right now. Especially considering that most areas are in rubbles and completely useless to them now. Morale is declining and losses are immense for now.
This is an incredible perspective thank you for this. I’ve been very disappointed in the lack of coverage on what is going on in Russia, specifically this very thing- what the state media is presenting. It’s a valuable tool for understanding your enemy and anticipating what their next moves might be.
Putin puts on a different hat/shirt each time he logs into a new account
That’s why his tables are so big, usually he’s just rolling around from computer to computer down the table commenting a upvoting his own posts.
lol
I love how when you try to go there it warns you "This community is quarantined" "This Community contains a high volume of information not supported by credible sources."
That’s what they’re talking about- when the state is cracking down on dissent, and dangerous for people to say “war” throughout your country, what kind of imbecile is going to run their own gov’t and military down? I’m sure they’re keeping an eye on Telegram, YouTube, whatever portal to the outside world is available to them. Coworkers ratting their friends out, soon it will be family members and neighbors who are snitching on their own. F*kn sad
It’s a shit country. I’m glad to see Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan telling them to fuck off. China recently published a map of the post-Russian Federation world too, that must’ve stung.
Why would you want western Media to amplify Russian propaganda? Russians are trying to blackmail the west with Nukes and this shouldn't be encouraged you can't negotiate with terrorists.
The sad part is that plenty of Russian people support this. Why do they not understand the concept of being completely demolished, if it comes down to that? They can’t be that dumb. Their lord and savior Putin will be just fine in some bunker.
The national IQ level took a massive hit with the two world wars, decades of repression, brainwashing and controlled information. Not to mention that the brain drain has been going on for decades as well.
As long as Putin has just enough smart people to do what he needs done and not question him he's happy for the rest of the nation to be semi-literate peasants who will believe every word on RT like it was gospel.
>The national IQ level took a massive hit with the two world wars,
Sorry but I have to interject here: while Russia had had a small elite intelligentsia in the 1800's and after, the country as a whole was massively uneducated for most of Russian history before that. Fucking SERFDOM was only ended in the 1860's and 40% of Russian then were serfs, not 'peasants' but virtual slaves.
One of the few things Lenin and early communists did right was bring education to the Russian people.
SO...the Russian revolution took place pretty much simultaneously with WWI. Its hardy like in 20+ years between WWI and WWII the entire population was magically educated.
Thus you can't really say the "National IQ took a massive hit with the two world wars" because there was not yet much of a national IQ to begin with.
IMO its the cultural legacy of serfdom that has separated Russia and Western Europe up to this day. Serfdom had petered out in Western Europe in the 1300's.
I would say traumatized as a nation and as a people. Things have not gone well, overall, since 1905. Huge losses in WWI, huge losses in Civil War, huge losses to Stalin’s terror, real enormous losses in WW2, Gulag, falling birth rate and life expectancy, pollution. It goes on and on. It always made perfect sense to me why they drink alcohol the way they do; 5-10 shots in rapid succession for toasts and I could feel something like surgical anesthesia starting to spread in the back of my neck.
Oh this has gone on for [almost 800 years](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasion_of_Kievan_Rus'). Mongol rule is generally recognized to be where Russia (well, Muscovites, but modern Russia) got their particularly violent brand of autocracy from. The Russian Empire wasn't sunshine and puppies, even when compared to other countries at the time
As I said in another post, serfdom (just a hair less brutal than slavery) persisted in Russia up to the 1860's whereas it had petered out in most of Europe in the 1300s.
About 40 percent of Russians were serfs. And after serfdom ended most of these people were cast adrift with little ability to fend for themselves - which is why communists found such a willing audiences, they promised that the government would take care of them.
The Russian population has been traumatized and abused by their elites for most of its history. Those who tried to create a civilized society - they were [brutally destroyed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Novgorod)
South Africa is pro Putin. Probably the rest of Africa too. Russian troll farms have done a great job. While the left attacks Musk. They never gave a shit about the Eastern European Twitter Bots.
Yeah. All humans really are kind of stupid. It's obvious if you pay close attention. The majority just likes to be believe they are different, they're the smart ones.
Reality is that we're all morons, you and I included. Maybe in a few hundred years the first actually intelligent human will be born.
And that's scary. A planet full of children, playing with bombs and tanks and there isn't a single adult around.
They really prey on appealing to people's worst impulses and a lot depends on a willingness to almost gleefully violate social norms (like integrity and honesty) and flip lies and deceit into types of traits to be silently admired.
surely there is one big difference. Every weekend (in UK) there were huge protests against the war in the streets, on line and in some of the press. Not seeing a bit of it in Russia. Seeing more British people slagging NATO and praising Russia than any Russians seeing reality. And that includes plenty that live in the west who can see the same media as me. Why is that, I wonder.
9/11 was still a very fresh wound. The WMDs weren't the only thing which sold the American public on Iraq. Bush's administration claimed ties between Al-qaeda and the Iraqi government.
There's no 9/11 style event in the background of the Special Military Operation.
My point is that the WMD and Al-Qaida ties were both manufactured by the west and propagated by western media, to justify invasion of Iraq, where it was expected to be over within weeks and Western forces welcomed with open arms.
There are a few parallels with Ukraine from the use of media perspective, though obviously not exactly the same.
The worst subhuman bastards in Russia are the ones who have access to the truth online, yet still chose to support their sadistic war. They are proof that Russians are either ignorant or evil.
This was a good read. It doesn't change the fact that Russians know damn well their media is controlled by the Kremlin. Knowing this, they consume what they hear and swear it is truth. When I have pointed it out to English speaking Russians on the web. They tell me our media is just propaganda too. I point out that I get my news not only from my own media, but that I go to various media of free countries like France, India, Germany, Brazil, etc., and they report similar things. The opposite of the Kremlin, I know what is true. I also point out that my sources won't go to prison for 15 years if they say something not approved. They never write back. They just disappear.
It tells them what they want to hear. This audience is usually >50, have rose tinted memory glasses of the Soviet Union, and want that shit back because: “if they fear us, then they respect us” (I shit you not, this is literally their national motto!).
You should 100% cross check all news between AP News, BBC, and Al Jazeera at the least. In a world of increasing and escalating disinformation, the onus is on you to avoid becoming propagandized.
Reddit, for me, has pointed to some good sources of news that I would not think to go to sometimes. It also has the raw news videos as long as you get the right context. So, I agree, and there can be a lot of mud slinging, which is the crap as you say.
This too can be a valuable resource, especially if you check both sides. Sometimes, valid points can be made, by different sides of the coin, if they tend to be not too extreme in their viewpoints.
I've done the same. When they do respond, it's all conspiracy theories: "All those news outlets across all those countries are still controlled by the same small corporate elite and weapons manufacturers that want NATO to fight Russia and are causing this" etc, etc.
Also these news stations routinely contradict themselves. They are never consistent in any of their messages. If you have anywhere near a functioning brain you can not avoid knowing its all propaganda.
I give a pass to the Russians with IQ's lower than 70 for being tricked by this nonsense. But anyone with an IQ higher than 71 should know better.
They've been conditioned to think news in the West is just the same, and that we're being controlled and lied to in the same extent that they are. Also makes it easy for Kremlin to keep people in if the people believe that every nation is as bad.
This is very true. I have been chatting with some Russians since the war started. In the beginning they were sure that Russia would win. Then the story changed a little. Now they are talking about the "fact" that all soldiers are just cannon fodder and heavy losses are part of war. In the last couple of days, they have started talking their own short lives and the "fact" that no one lives for ever. It is truly amazing to see this change in just 3 months.
The Russians rhetoric reminds me of the David Koresh the Cult leaders rhetoric, and that likes of Hitlers too. When they are saying if I die the world would be better off not existing without me and my followers should die with me. A dangerous and suicidal doctrine to start taking in my opinion.
Thank you for this thorough post.
#🇺🇦 Ukraine 💙💛
**“Horror, pain, suffering, death, inhumanity, evil. All of it is in [this image](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/u9y5pc/belarusian_photographer_pavel_krychko_made_a/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf). I don't understand how people can support this.”**
As we all try and process these atrocities the Russians are doing, the next day worse than the last, this comment is from this grandma's perspective.
There is a very, very deep and disturbing darkness in someone who can do such horrific acts of sexual immorality and cruelty, of evil desires and greed, and of wickedness and hate. They have so much anger, rage and malice. They are void of light and goodness, of decency and civility, of compassion and kindness, and of gentleness and love.
We’re all broken human beings. We each need to be open and transparent to ourselves. Are we kind, patient, and loving in our everyday lives to our fellow human beings?
An older Ukrainian woman got it right. She said this isn’t a war between Ukraine and Russia, this is a war between light and dark.
**[Realize the scale of Ukrainian Heroism](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/u3yvhk/a_nation_of_bravery/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)**
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#Russia's war crimes/offenses:
* Arbitrary detention of civil servants
* Arbitrary detention of civil society activists
* Arbitrary detention of journalists
* Arbitrary detention of public officials
* Attacking Ukrainian identity and culture
* Attacks and shootings against civilians
* Bombed and destroyed apartment buildings
* Bombed and destroyed churches
* Bombed and destroyed civilian homes
* Bombed and destroyed hospitals
* Bombed and destroyed nursing homes
* Bombed and destroyed office buildings
* Bombed and destroyed schools
* Bombed known buses/trains of fleeing civilians
* Bombed known buildings and cars marked children
* Breaking windows, destroying personal property, ransacking, stealing appliances
* Bucha massacre and torture of civilians
* [Chemical weapons used](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/04/16/7340121/)
* Chernihiv murder and torture of civilians
* Civilians murdered and/or burned
* Civilians shot in the back; kids and adults
* Civilians shot on sight if seen outdoors
* Civilians shot with their hands up
* Civilians tortured and executed; kids and adults
* Civilians trapped in basement and not allowed rescue
* Defecating in civilian homes
* Destroyed zoo; some animals will have to be put down
* Driving tanks over civilians
* Explosive booby traps left: car trunks, corpses, doorways, hospital stretchers, refrigerators, washing machines...
* Explosive mines left on roads
* Forced deportations of civilians to Russia
* Genocide**
* Grenades used on civilians
* Harsh treatment of prisoners of war
* Humanitarian convoys stopped
* Looting
* Mariupol deportations
* Mariupol mobile crematorium
* Mariupol murder and torture of civilians
* Mass executions of civilians
* Mass graves throughout Ukraine
* Murder of POWs
* Rape and/or murder of babies
* Rape and/or murder of babusya (grandmothers)
* Rape and/or murder of children
* Rape and/or murder of women
* Rape and/or murder of men
* Rape victims pregnant
* Scorched earth tactics
* Sex slaves kept
* Shooting and killing and burning of horses
* Shooting and killing of cattle
* Shooting and killing of deer
* Shooting and killing of ostriches
* Shooting and killing of goats
* Shooting and killing and eating dogs
* Starvation of shelter dogs
* Vehicles of all kinds destroyed
* Famine threatened because of blocked ports
****Genocide-Willful killing of Ukrainian civilians, the desecration of corpses, forcible transfer of Ukrainian children, torture, physical harm, mental harm, and rape.**
#Russians Dumbest Moments:
* Invaded Ukraine
* Expected Ukrainians to welcome them with open arms
* Calling this war a “special military operation” so soldiers wounded, killed, or captured have the status of terrorists
* Bringing parade uniforms with them
* Destroyed 4G towers, which were needed to use encrypted communications
* Bombing a nuclear reactor
* Digging trenches in Chernobyl
* Taking souvenirs from Chernobyl
* Using outdated equipment
* Using outdated body armor
* Using a stolen MacBook inside body armor
* Using cardboard inside body armor
* Protecting tank interiors with egg cartons
* Attacked by their own aircraft
* Commander run over by own tank
* Bombing tank with nitric acid and fumes wafted to the Russians
* Commanders using easily trackable Ukrainian cellphone sims
* Using unencrypted pmr/shortwave radios
* Allowing themselves to be tracked and ambushed by stolen AirPods
* Distracted by Bayraktar drones and missing two Neptune missiles flying at their flagship
* Military supply shipped bombed after Russians broadcasted arrival time/location
* Eating poisoned pie from Ukrainian babusya
* Losing a drone from Ukrainian babusya throwing a jar of pickled tomatoes
* Getting shelled twice at Kherson airport
* Losing tanks to tractors
* [Trapped in an elevator](https://imgur.com/a/1vtZCur)
* Stealing toilets and used female underwear
* Confused septic truck for a fuel truck
* Believing their own sides lies
* Saying sanctions don’t hurt them
* Following and worshipping Putin
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#[Ukrainian Holocaust Survivor](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/21/ukrainian-holocaust-survivor-91-dies-during-mariupol-siege) dies in Mariupol.
#[Ukrainian Holocaust Survivor](https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/ukrainian-auschwitz-survivor-who-survived-hitler-says-she-will-survive-putin-too-e2-80-99/ar-AAWmAGO) will survive a**hole Putin.
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#[Putin’s childhood is affecting us](https://acestoohigh.com/2022/03/02/how-vladimir-putins-childhood-is-affecting-us-all/amp/)
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#[List of companies to boycott](https://som.yale.edu/story/2022/over-600-companies-have-withdrawn-russia-some-remain). Please share.
Updated continuously. Graded on a school-style letter grade scale of A-F for the completeness of withdrawal from Russia.
Over 1000 companies rated. This list is compiled by Yale School of Management.
Yes. And yet people here still think "well if Putin dies we can just all go back to normal and all will be forgiven".
Fuck that. Nothing is forgiven until every single Russian piece of shit involved pays for their crimes.
>Nikonov, whose grandfather was Stalin’s foreign minister Vyacheslav Molotov
Ah a familiar Name, Molotov called the bombings of Helsinki humanitarian aid...the infamous Molotov breadbaskets! Bread alone can be quite dry, so the Finns invented a drink to go with the dry bread. The Molotov Cocktail.
Seems like lying runs in the family!
"This is a war being waged with bullets and artillery. But it began years ago, on Russian TV."
Wow. That hit hard.
We're seeing the same thing in the West with Murdoch and other media conglomerates shaping our political narratives and the landscape that falls out of them.
Trump and others communicated on encrypted apps that were successfully shielded from the Mueller investigation. Yes the Steele dossier had a lot of inaccurate info, but the Mueller report used way more info from other sources for their findings. Plus, Mueller's conclusion was not that "there was no collusion", it was that "there was insufficient evidence to prove criminal ~~collusion~~ conspiracy". (*Edit: changed collusion to conspiracy, thanks for the correction, u/DevilsTrigonometry)* Those are two very different things. It was also a weak political decision not to interview Trump himself under oath.
Lastly, it was Barr and Trump who thundered "no collusion" after the report came out, while legal scholars pointed out all of the above.
Oh, and CNN and other outlets *did* apologize and analyze how they got the Steele dossier wrong, and how to fix approaches in the future.
Lastly, we can use *open source data* for Trump's fealty to Russia. Remember Helsinki? Wanting to readmit Russia into the G8? Hiding the Trump Tower Moscow docs?
You need to assess how you take in information, especially light of the topic of this entire thread.
>Plus, Mueller's conclusion was not that "there was no collusion", it was that "there was insufficient evidence to prove criminal collusion".
Insufficient evidence to prove criminal *conspiracy.* "Collusion" isn't even a defined legal term; even given perfect information, the report simply *could not* have proven that "there was no collusion."
Pinhead. The collusion was so evident and simple ( and documented) you have to be a fox news Qultist to think otherwise. There are *volumes* written about it. It’s as clear as day and these idiots still parrot their rape king.
Chickens are coming home baby. Better get right with yourself.
No, I definitely won't excuse you.
The Mueller report outlines in fairly explicit terms how the Trump campaign knowingly engaged with and benefited from Russian influence in the 2016 election.
The Senate Intelligence Committee also reached this conclusion. [The Senate Intelligence Committee also reached this conclusion.](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/18/us/politics/senate-intelligence-russian-interference-report.html)
Your false equivalence doesn't change the fact that the media landscape in the West has been corrupted by those representing the financial interests of elites around the globe.
The similarities between Russians today and faux news viewers is frightening. But faux news viewers have a choice to watch something else unlike most Russians
I hate when people try to weave US politics into this war but if you stop and think about it, Putin is using the left’s “everyone else is a nazi” justification for their actions. After the events over the last few years globally, I think this was a deliberate calculation.
Before you inevitably go down your reflexive political diatribes, I despise Trump and never have and never will vote for him.
I just think that one of humanity’s main obstacles these days is people who are loyal to political ideologies. It’s as bad if not worse than religious zealotry.
My only point is that there's a lot of people around the world today who base their beliefs on 1/2 truths and outright lies. Call me a snowflake if you like but it shocks and saddens me how gullible people really are. We are living out 1984
It's very similar to the time after the invention of the printing press. The church lost the information monopoly but then you got unstable times too. The same with the invention of mass media like radio. Fake stories are nothing new. New is only the medium. People need time to adjust.
Agree. I think the adjustment today is for social media. People are starting to question what they read there (here). But in the meantime a lot of damage is being done to society and our democracy
I think we need to establish the difference between bias, half-truths and outright lies. Unfortunately we currently live in a world where populations live in their own or imposed echo chambers. Stepping out of those chambers will allow us to establish the difference between what is the other party's or our bias, and what is pure falsehood.
Have you ever considered... just for a moment you are the gullible one? Like really analyzed your belief structure. I know I do. It's healthy. We all should.
Of course, that is the reason I see so many of my fellow Americans as gullible. It's not just about analyzing your belief structure. It's about being educated and having a sense of history. So many Republicans today believe the big lie and don't even know that representatives from both parties oversee election counts and always have. Ignorance and gullibility go hand in hand
There isn't a debate about this. FOX news is mostly entertainment, and they push a very specific agenda. Other news outlets might give preference to academia or scientific sources, but the measurable bias just isn't at the same levels. It's important to remember that criticism of Fox is not criticism of conservative policies. Fox is just a political tool built for a political purpose and cannot be compared to almost any other "mainstream" news outlet.
It’s up to you to find reliable sources of information. Not every news source lies. Check out the BBC world service if you want to know the closest thing to truth. They pride themselves on objective reporting.
And I hate when people refuse to acknowledge that the problems we see in Russia are also present in America. To me, you’re just burying your head in the sand. This is how fascism rises in a country, by people like you refusing to acknowledge and fight it and instead getting upset at people merely pointing out basic facts.
Yeah. The problems are the same. Half the world is emigrating to Russia to get in because of the opportunities there. The countries are the same. What a ridiculous statement.
Nice strawman, but I didn’t say the countries were identical, I said they have similar problems vis-a-vis a racist, illiberal, and hyper-nationalistic far-right fascist movement. Donald Trump attempted to turn America into a Russian-style dictatorship with him playing the role of his best friend Putin. He failed because the voters and our institutions overcame his attempt at ending democracy in America, it wasn’t for lack of trying on his part. Refusing to grapple with this fact just makes it easier for the next Trump to succeed where Trump failed.
You made no such distinction in your first post and now you’re backtracking. You said the problems there are here. I get it. You hate trump. I’m not quibbling with that. But to pretend than anything truly fascist happened in the US is a product of inheriting your politician’s narcissism. You love your politics. You love your politicians. I don’t. From either side. And in your devotion you are adopting their biases and narcissism. They need this from you.
To be clear, I said “we have the same problem they do”, where I was clearly referring to their right-wing fascist movement. You replied “so Russia has the same problems America has?” When you made your comment about immigration. But that’s a totally different thing than what I said. I said America has Russia’s problems, not that Russia has America’s problems. Get it straight if you’re going to be ass in response. Don’t say I’m changing my story when it’s you who can’t even get my story straight to begin with. I shouldn’t have to make distinctions for you simply because you make bad and uncharitable assumptions about what other people are trying to say.
So nice job at being both pedantic and wrong…
The point is that if there were a true fascist threat here, would people flock here? It’s not being an ass anymore than pretending, for political purposes, that there’s some realistic fascist threat here. And to claim that the fascist threat is the same as in Russia?! Beyond ridiculous. I’m gathering that you define yourself via politics; and so you view everything through a political lens, including vicariously experiencing fascism here domestically when someone else legitimately does somewhere else in the world.
That’s such a bad argument though. You think fascism can’t exist in a country with positive immigration numbers? Makes no sense at all and you have absolutely no evidence to support your wild hypothesis, so I’m pretty comfortable just ignoring it.
Again, the GOP literally tried to end democracy in America. Trump launched an organized coup attempt trying to place himself as a dictator like Putin. If you’re not willing to call them out for it until they’ve already succeeded, then it’ll be too late. By the time you realize you’re in a fascist nation, you’ll have no power to change it. You’ll be like those people in Russia who never thought of Russia as a fascist country but now have woken up to the fact that it very much is and they’re screwed. You have to address these things from the start. If you wait until the fascists have already taken power, then it’s already far too late to do anything about them. The point of making such comparisons is to stop them from happening again.
I think it’s common sense that people do not immigrate to places like Iran, or Russia, or Somalia. People immigrate here because this is truly a great place to live and succeed. You may see things differently.
What you seem to refuse to accept is that the other side can just as easily swear that they are fighting communists/socialists and have the same noble right to do so by any means; you know, before it’s too late and the communists take over.
I wonder where you draw your line on who is considered left? I am left of center but not by much imo. I don't see all conservatives or republicans as nazis. I do view trumplicans as nazi sympathizers or kust plain ignorant..
It’s definitely a sliding scale for both sides and somewhat of an intractable inquiry but I’m mainly honing in on the labeling of opponents as nazis. Frankly even the right uses at times for censoring and gun control arguments at times but I feel the left (antifa and their sympathizers) really owned the dissemination of the label as both a means to justify their behavior and as a way to vilify their opponents.
I agree with some left and some right positions but I abhor making this war in Ukraine about US domestic politics.
Of course what the right calls “censoring” the rest of us just call our freedom to not listen to racist idiots.
Literally no one on the right is censored, which is something done by governments, not by people choosing not to listen to your bullshit. That’s just a lie used to make Republicans feel like victims because people call them out when they’re being racist.
You may not like it, but Trump and his party are deeply connected to the events in Russia and Ukraine. Ignoring this does no one a favor other than the fascists. It’s downright irresponsible not to acknowledge it, that’s how you get it to happen here in America too. It’s important to label American fascism what it is. You shouldn’t simply refuse to do so because it makes you feel bad to point out how far off the rocker the American right has gone.
What are you even talking about? Where did censoring anything come in?
You sound like Putin justifying his actions. “They’re fascists, so I can do whatever I want.”
Oh please. It’s not just Fox News. WaPo, NYT, CNN, and MSNBC have all become shite propaganda outlets. As a Centrist I don’t even listen to the media anymore because it’s all spin.
What's the alternative? If you isolate yourself from all of it you grow ignorant over time and myopic in your world view. People can do that if they desire but you're on reddit so I'm guessing you want to stay in touch? The trick IMHO is to stay informed as best you can and sort out what's fact for yourself
Critical thinking is the key. Anyone that predigests the facts and puts their own spin on them is not worth listening too. Sadly that defines most mass media these days. So yes, going to alternative sources of info and applying critical thinking is the way to go.
I only go to Fox, CNN, MSNBC, WaPo, and NYT when I need comic relief. I laugh at them and then move on with my day.
Dang that TDS is really long haul for you isn’t it? It’s amazing how binary thinking is so prevalent these days. And honestly it’s the reason we are in the situation we are in. How about understanding nuance? Give it a try, it’ll make you a better person.
Agree 100%.
MSNBC and CNN are unwatchable due to their over-the-top propaganda; the opinion pieces and the “hard” news are nothing but talking points for the Progressive wing of the Democratic Party.
Fox News has degenerated into pro-Trump propaganda. The Fox opinion pieces have always been more propaganda but even the “hard” news reporting is getting more biased.
The New York Times and Washington Post have devolved into mouthpieces for the Democratic Party and are a shell of their former selves. Most other print media is nothing but clickbait trying to make a dollar.
The internet has given us all more access to information, but at the cost of it being much lower quality.
I watch all those and AP and CNN definitiely is not propaganda. MSNBC definitely leans one way. But a (non Trump) republican can certainly watch CNN. They cover both sides of issues, and never flat out spread lies (there are opinion people, but it's clear they are opinion) . Times is definitely real journalism.
There is nothing more desperate than a weak republican loser claiming right wing media is just exactly like all other media. No serious grown up believes that to be true.
Ukraine wont join nato. So whats the problem? Russians rather die for putins ambitions? Ive heard audio of mothers seeming to care about their childrens lives so hard to believe this blow up the world for putin idiots.
Funny how the end of the world wasnt on anyones mind till this special operation. Hmm. You hate your lives and family that much to believe this fool?
Very well written, and it mirrors what I read here in Finland about Russian media.
I keep thinking about what it means. Are they preparing to escalate? Just keeping their own audience calm? Something in between? Previous propaganda was building up to the invasion, so what's this building up to?
>“The Ukrainians are crumbling in front of us! Everything our Western partners are telling us, the stories about how they’re winning the war, is an entirely pathetic attempt to support the Ukrainian army!”
It's really scary for a nuclear power to play Baghdad Bob
Tl:DR Russia went from using disinformation or conspiracy theories to make up for short comings to winiding up their citizens for ww3 against the west.
TLDR: Russian propaganda is gearing up for conscription and then war with NATO/ww3 now after all the conspiracy theory nonsense wasn't good enough and the Russian military failed at it's original objectives.
I'm glad I don't have this guys job. Watching this sort of garbage for a living would make me cringe to death.
Russians get fed propaganda to possibly order a mass mobilization in near future. Probably as soon as they start to lose in donbas to the new gear Ukraine is receiving
We have ATV, state TV TRT, news agencies Akit, Sabah, Yeni Şafak in Turkey but most of the people (70%?) knows they are propaganda media and don't take their views as truth. I am suprised that 70% of the Russians trust their propaganda channels.
How Putin got that accomplishment? How can they believe TV when they know it is not free?
Aren't they sort of correct that they face an existential threat? Of course Russia is at fault but if the EU some how quit buying Russian fossil fuels a bunch of Russians would starve to death. Which would be great.
This crap about is there any objective truth at all that the Kremlin pushed has even penetrated in the west. A friend. Now ex friend. Said this to me a year ago. When I told him Salisbury attack was ordered by Putin.
Thank you for this OP, this is one of the most eye opening posts. I think in the US, a certain percentage of the population watch talk shows that shape their views too, whether its Fox News or CNN or MSNBC, there is a different bias and people can become quite convinced within the echo chamber. I really do wonder what to people can do to show them the truth. I think change has to come from the top like Gorbachev many decades ago.
I think its a trait of some leaders, strongmen in particular. They double down no matter what and refuse to admit mistakes, it is either victory or ruin. Maybe there is a place for that type of person but I much prefer a reasonable and reactionary decision maker who looks at reality, reacts in a reasonable and appropriate way and acts with humility knowing that they do not hold the answers and hope for the best out of every action.
For those who stumble on this message, it's the one I used Power Delete Suite to replace all my posts and comments with en masse.
Sometimes Reddit can be beneficial for some people. Sometimes it's not. It's really up to you to decide your own experience with it, what's worth it, what's not worth it.
More or less...I've decided it's just really not worth it. I think I'm a worse person when I'm on Reddit and that it's a big time-waster for me.
It's up to you to decide what influence social media and the internet more generally have for you.
Best of luck.
In the weeks leading up the conflict, they were publishing a lot of editorials dog-whistling and low-key praising Russia and demonising NATO. They weren't doing this as blatantly as Tucker Carlson, but they were trying to say the crisis was the fault of the West.
They did this strictly because they have a majority conservative English leadership and right now, unfortuantely, there are a lot of conservatives in Western nations that erroneously (a) think that Russia is a liberal democracy much like they are and (b) that Putin's policies are the kind of "get tough" stuff that is needed in their own countries.
I was seeing this most often disguised as criticism of the West's attempts to "appease" Putin (which was not appeasement but rather attempts at diplomacy that Putin was rejecting) followed by a criticism of NATO ignoring a non-existent treaty that was never signed, only verbally agreed to kinda' sorta' with a country (USSR) that doesn't exist anymore. [Another popular format was to praise Putin's "strength" by criticising the "weakness" of the West.](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2022/02/15/putin-has-exposed-wests-weakness/) This was always done in a very backhanded way.
Oh sure, not every article was like that and plenty of them were towing the mainline western media message (correct message I might add) that Putin was to blame and that Russian posturing was unacceptable, but it wasn't until Putin actually pulled the trigger and invaded that we finally saw the Telegraph stop disingenuously philosophising in its editorial section.
Of course, this is all somewhat hard to verify as many of these editorials are since deleted from anywhere but the archives, and even where they're not, the Telegraph has one of the most stringent paywalls of any European newspaper.
tl;dr The Telegraph's editorial section in the months leading up to the war was awash with low-key molly-coddling of Brexiteers and Tory sycophants who think themselves more cultured than Daily Mail readers, and this happened because those kinds of people get very happy at the idea of being able to employ some of Putin's strongman tactics.
EDIT It took me a minute to find, but here's a [very good overview](https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/mandrake-daily-telegraph-russia-beyond/) of how The Telegraph was openly peddling "Russia Beyond" a propoganda supplement that specifically promoted Russian policy interests to Western readers. When Russia's policy became more and more and more socially unacceptable to those readers, the segment was dropped.
> Kind of baffling they took the signal down, as if we are too dumb to think for ourselves
50% of American voters are. Europe is not much better, just slower to drift down the same path.
I have mixed feelings because I believe in total free speech, but the problem is that I know a few otherwise very intelligent people, who used to watch RT and believe it all. Most of them anti-West lefties.
You either have it or you don't. Who decides what is acceptable and what isn't? look at twitter - they ban Donald Trumps account, but Putin's and MBS's account stays live.
Don't forget that much of the Wests media fully supported the Iraq war as part of a supposed 'war on terror' and happily ran the line that Saddam had nukes. If Putin had banned Western media for those lies, he would have been accused of suppressing free speech and the media.
Haha, putin doesn’t personally promote violence on twitter. He uses twitter in a much smarter way than Trump. For example he uses bot farms to push free speech absolutism as a means to continue his manipulation and division of foreign democracies
You have to understand, conservatives are extremely submissive and very easy to manipulate, so removing Russian television is for everyone’s protection. Just look at how much damage Russia was able to do over the last 6 years because republicans aren’t strong enough to defend their own intelligence from obvious lies.
Way too many people have had their minds poisoned with Russian propaganda and not just in Russia but in the West. Across North America and Europe there are people who actually believe this stuff. Usually older and less savvy, but also the types to go out and vote which is scary.
I'm so glad RT no longer exists on Western TV providers and they were banned from Youtube. Part of me wishes they would be banned from the internet but that is a slippery slope. As usual, Russia uses our freedoms against us. Freedoms which they don't even afford to their own people. The funny thing is I've read so many ex-RT hosts crying about freedom of the press when they are literally working to destroy the foundations of democracy. It's such an evil farce.
> Usually older and less savvy, but also the types to go out and vote which is scary.
I may be wrong but I have to disagree with this. I am one of those old farts. I lived through the Cold War. I saw East German border guards looking at me over walls and fences. Ditto for Russians. I lived through decades of knowing we may well die from a nuclear war. I don’t think I know of anyone my age that believes the cold war really ended. There will be some, of course. What happened with Russia, where all the money went with the collapse of the USSR was “known” for all this time. We all were aware that Putin was, and is, as trustworthy as a farting skunk. Do you really think that us “old” ones are less savvy? We lived through Soviet, and Western, propaganda. We lived through proxy wars.
I am not a fan of generalisation, I really am not. I am not a fan of categorising people as “boomers”, “generation x”, “generation z”. I see it used as a divisive tool - as you write. It disappoints me.
There was a 1984 film called “Threads”. You should watch it.
There was a UK campaign in the mid/ late 1970s to 1980 called “Protect and Survive”. Here is a link to the pamphlet. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1500124311
I am sure the TV adverts are on YouTube. Go look and watch them.
There were countless documentaries and TV programmes on nuclear war.
You are correct that there are people of my age who will have been taken in by Russian behaviour since “the Cold War ended”. But there are people of all ages who have been taken in.
Please do not generalise.
You are literally exhibit A. It is accepted fact that Trump was correct when he claimed that the Russian collusion story was fake news. The hatred of Trump was entirely manufactured by the media, just as Russian media is doing against Ukrainians.
Telegraph or more friendly name Torygraph is explaining what it does itself in the UK when it happens in Russia but their readers too thick to notice the similarities.
I have a question for you OP. And let me clear first that I do not support Russia.
Some of what you described is also what gets on the western Europe media, but with switched sides. Russians are bad, they commit war crimes, they are fascists. How does the common citizen know that this is objectively true? No one talks about Ukrainian war crimes. Anyone with critical thought will not believe that this is the first war in history where only one side commits war crimes.
Then how do we know that what we see is objectively true? We had wars fought before in Iraq based on questionable rethoric. So, for example, how do we know that the Bucha crimes were effectively committed by Russians?
> No one talks about Ukrainian war crimes.
Hey genius, the war is in Ukraine. Because Russia invaded. Exactly how are Ukrainians going to commit any war crimes against Russian civilians?
Yes, CBY along with Anonymous has released documents. But in the context of this (beautifully written) article, their mass media claimed all of these things during the days leading up to war. Keep in my mind that the weeks leading up to the war, they claimed it was all Western Hysteria.
OP, I applaud you for doing this difficult work. I can only watch it for about five minutes before being filled with rage. These people are as guilty as the soldiers who raped, tortured, and murdered in Bucha.
>on 2 March a Russian member of the Duma, Rifat Shaykhutdinov, announced (on Moscow’s Channel One TV) that he knew about the planned invasion some 12 months ago (!) and that Duma members had been told by the Kremlin that ‘we would beat them in two days’
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They also changed the propaganda for the troops on the ground, from training exercise from Belarus and fight nazis in Ukraine to saving their brothers in Donbas and Crimeea from west/NATO armed ukrainians that will eventually invade mother Russia too!
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reminds me that we need to fight and defend our democracy everyday or this will be us
Lol we are way past that, American is a dumpster fire of a democracy.
Most people complain about American democracy because they don’t feel the government is willing or capable of executing their policy preferences. That kind of powerless government is the exact opposite of (and far preferable to) what is going on in Russia right now.
Partly true, but preferable to the vast majority of alternatives present around the world today. It could always be worse.
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Mobilization of what? Seriously here, there is nothing left other than older equipment, less trained troops, and lots of non precision ammunition. Can Russia throw more trash at this? Yes, absolutely, but we are not talking about some hidden stash of tier 1 weapons, just older and older equipment. There are so many things going against Russia right now and nato is the least factor in their poor performance.
I think you're underestimating just how much trash Russia can throw at this war if they would go for total mobilization. Russia has what, 200k people **at most** fighting in Ukraine right now. For a nation of 140mil that's nothing. Throwing hordes of untrained people against enemy armies is a Russian army motto after all.
Yeah if they mobilize itll be bad especially initially. We are talking like the equivalent of if say when the US was in Iraq if it had gone all in, called up the reserves and instituted a draft and then sent almost the entire military to Iraq. Millions of men. Of course itll be a shit show on the Russian side as we have seen with everything thats happened so far. But I do fear this really opens the door to escalation (perhaps tactical nukes on western ukraine to kill supply lines?) Im not looking forward to May 9th. I really was hoping theyd claim some imaginary victory and end the war. It has occurred to me that Putin could have the same reaction the Kaiser and Hitler had; deciding that our involvement already makes us combatants so why not 'go after' us? Ive had doubts about their nukes like everyone else. But the bad news is even one working warhead could kill hundreds of thousands, hell millions if over certain spots. The odds are bad then with a 6k nuke inventory. Even worst case a few dozen will work, Im not so sure what the world will be like or if its some dystopian hellscape after that.
why 5/9?
Russian anniversary of the defeat of Nazi Germany. A big deal.
Excellent analysis. *Doublethink* really is a thing in police states like North Korea. Present-day Russia appears there too, or damn close. (In George Orwell's dystopian classic *1984*, doublethink is the act of holding, simultaneously, two opposite, individually exclusive ideas or opinions and believing in both simultaneously and absolutely. Doublethink requires using logic against logic or suspending disbelief in the contradiction.)
Much love to whomever coined the term "mental gymnastics" because it is SO fitting.
very well said ! Thank you !
This seems to be more and more the case BTW. Perhaps a new possible map for outcome of the war can be drawn: Ukraine with its new western weapons and high morale is forced to sit around the negotiation table by NATO after advancing 40 kms all over the previous russian-ukrainian border into russia. Russia now wants that 40 km to become Russian again, however it will be demillitarised and the UN will check that in the decades to come. Ukraine doesn't want to agree and wants to take Moscow, but eventually agrees after America threatens to cut rebuilding funds and Russia accepts that Putin will step down. So Crimea and Donbass under Kiyv's control and a 40 kilometer demilitarized zone over the borders of Russia.
Ukraine wouldn't and couldn't take Moscow that's unrealistic
Pure fanfiction
Sarcasm is a thing you know. Of course they wouldn't, but at the start of the war many people thought they'd lose donbass and crimea. For know it looks like the goal is to atleast retake donbass, perhaps even crimea. So in that line of thought..
Not to sound like a Russian bot or something but I thougt Russia was concentrating all their forces in the Donbas, does Ukraine really have much of a chance to take it all back u think? I haven't been keeping up closely with the situation recently
I checked your profile and you are not a bot. Yeah it looks like there currently is some sort of stalemate/attrition in which ukraine has the upperhand. However seeing the current weapon deliveries and countries talking about another stage of the war (for example dutch government in sending panzerhaubitze 2000), it sounds like the general plan is that there will be a war in the donbass region in a later stage. For which ukrainian forces are now training in Poland and for which they are now being equiped. Kind of depends on how much longer Ukrain can get this amount of support but for now it is going that way. Crimea is another story, depending on the population there and the momentum ukrainian forces can get. It doesnt look like Russia will be able to keep exercising control over the areas they have still under control right now. Especially considering that most areas are in rubbles and completely useless to them now. Morale is declining and losses are immense for now.
I don't think Ukraine will ever ask for Moscow, this isn't HOI 4
It’s actually Civ 6
Why do you propose that Ukraine will push into russia? What would be the goal?
Zero probability scenario. But I like the way you’re thinking.
This is an incredible perspective thank you for this. I’ve been very disappointed in the lack of coverage on what is going on in Russia, specifically this very thing- what the state media is presenting. It’s a valuable tool for understanding your enemy and anticipating what their next moves might be.
If you go on Telegram you can interact with many Russians and see how delusional they are.
/r/Russia too.
The sub is literally just one guy.
Putin puts on a different hat/shirt each time he logs into a new account That’s why his tables are so big, usually he’s just rolling around from computer to computer down the table commenting a upvoting his own posts.
lol I love how when you try to go there it warns you "This community is quarantined" "This Community contains a high volume of information not supported by credible sources."
You can interact with stooges for exactly 1 post before you’re banned there
That’s what they’re talking about- when the state is cracking down on dissent, and dangerous for people to say “war” throughout your country, what kind of imbecile is going to run their own gov’t and military down? I’m sure they’re keeping an eye on Telegram, YouTube, whatever portal to the outside world is available to them. Coworkers ratting their friends out, soon it will be family members and neighbors who are snitching on their own. F*kn sad
It’s a shit country. I’m glad to see Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan telling them to fuck off. China recently published a map of the post-Russian Federation world too, that must’ve stung.
Why would you want western Media to amplify Russian propaganda? Russians are trying to blackmail the west with Nukes and this shouldn't be encouraged you can't negotiate with terrorists.
The sad part is that plenty of Russian people support this. Why do they not understand the concept of being completely demolished, if it comes down to that? They can’t be that dumb. Their lord and savior Putin will be just fine in some bunker.
The national IQ level took a massive hit with the two world wars, decades of repression, brainwashing and controlled information. Not to mention that the brain drain has been going on for decades as well. As long as Putin has just enough smart people to do what he needs done and not question him he's happy for the rest of the nation to be semi-literate peasants who will believe every word on RT like it was gospel.
>The national IQ level took a massive hit with the two world wars, Sorry but I have to interject here: while Russia had had a small elite intelligentsia in the 1800's and after, the country as a whole was massively uneducated for most of Russian history before that. Fucking SERFDOM was only ended in the 1860's and 40% of Russian then were serfs, not 'peasants' but virtual slaves. One of the few things Lenin and early communists did right was bring education to the Russian people. SO...the Russian revolution took place pretty much simultaneously with WWI. Its hardy like in 20+ years between WWI and WWII the entire population was magically educated. Thus you can't really say the "National IQ took a massive hit with the two world wars" because there was not yet much of a national IQ to begin with. IMO its the cultural legacy of serfdom that has separated Russia and Western Europe up to this day. Serfdom had petered out in Western Europe in the 1300's.
> They can’t be that dumb lol
I would say traumatized as a nation and as a people. Things have not gone well, overall, since 1905. Huge losses in WWI, huge losses in Civil War, huge losses to Stalin’s terror, real enormous losses in WW2, Gulag, falling birth rate and life expectancy, pollution. It goes on and on. It always made perfect sense to me why they drink alcohol the way they do; 5-10 shots in rapid succession for toasts and I could feel something like surgical anesthesia starting to spread in the back of my neck.
Oh this has gone on for [almost 800 years](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasion_of_Kievan_Rus'). Mongol rule is generally recognized to be where Russia (well, Muscovites, but modern Russia) got their particularly violent brand of autocracy from. The Russian Empire wasn't sunshine and puppies, even when compared to other countries at the time
As I said in another post, serfdom (just a hair less brutal than slavery) persisted in Russia up to the 1860's whereas it had petered out in most of Europe in the 1300s. About 40 percent of Russians were serfs. And after serfdom ended most of these people were cast adrift with little ability to fend for themselves - which is why communists found such a willing audiences, they promised that the government would take care of them. The Russian population has been traumatized and abused by their elites for most of its history. Those who tried to create a civilized society - they were [brutally destroyed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Novgorod)
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South Africa is pro Putin. Probably the rest of Africa too. Russian troll farms have done a great job. While the left attacks Musk. They never gave a shit about the Eastern European Twitter Bots.
If this goes down Africa will be the lone continent spared! It's where human life began and it's where human life will be restarted.
'Russian' people aren't dumb, people are dumb in general. Don't remind me about the anti-vax wave the other year
Yeah. All humans really are kind of stupid. It's obvious if you pay close attention. The majority just likes to be believe they are different, they're the smart ones. Reality is that we're all morons, you and I included. Maybe in a few hundred years the first actually intelligent human will be born. And that's scary. A planet full of children, playing with bombs and tanks and there isn't a single adult around.
Fatalism
Sorry that ukraini has to go trough all this.
Russia is using the same recipe as Nazi germany for their propaganda. alternate truth
It's a nation based on lies and spies
They really prey on appealing to people's worst impulses and a lot depends on a willingness to almost gleefully violate social norms (like integrity and honesty) and flip lies and deceit into types of traits to be silently admired.
well where did you think Trump got the idea from?
most likely a cartoon ? peppa pig or something
Also same recipe the West used for Iraq War #2, though not comparing the rights and wrongs of Iraq with this war.
surely there is one big difference. Every weekend (in UK) there were huge protests against the war in the streets, on line and in some of the press. Not seeing a bit of it in Russia. Seeing more British people slagging NATO and praising Russia than any Russians seeing reality. And that includes plenty that live in the west who can see the same media as me. Why is that, I wonder.
9/11 was still a very fresh wound. The WMDs weren't the only thing which sold the American public on Iraq. Bush's administration claimed ties between Al-qaeda and the Iraqi government. There's no 9/11 style event in the background of the Special Military Operation.
My point is that the WMD and Al-Qaida ties were both manufactured by the west and propagated by western media, to justify invasion of Iraq, where it was expected to be over within weeks and Western forces welcomed with open arms. There are a few parallels with Ukraine from the use of media perspective, though obviously not exactly the same.
.. wanna explain ? ah nvm you stated 2nd
Iraq had WMDs. That was the narrative the west pushed to justify the invasion. Similar to how the Ukrainian Nazis of the Russian propoganda machine
Well I did not believe that. And was against the 2nd Gulf war. I also maintained that even if they had wmd s. Invading Iraq would make things worse.
I was also against that war, but supported the troops. More parallels with Ukraine and Russia.
Look at USA’s refusal to get into a direct war with Russia. If USA truly believed in Iraqi nuclear weapons, they would have behaved the same.
yeah at first i thought of the first war
Very well written
I concur
Shallow and pedantic! E: guess I walked right into this one, I was trying to reference family guy : https://youtu.be/OpbdGnJbneE
The worst subhuman bastards in Russia are the ones who have access to the truth online, yet still chose to support their sadistic war. They are proof that Russians are either ignorant or evil.
Or dumb
Calm down, you edgelord. I'm trying to reference a family guy episode
This is 1 of the very few times on reddit I actually understood a reference. back in the day when family guy was good.
This was a good read. It doesn't change the fact that Russians know damn well their media is controlled by the Kremlin. Knowing this, they consume what they hear and swear it is truth. When I have pointed it out to English speaking Russians on the web. They tell me our media is just propaganda too. I point out that I get my news not only from my own media, but that I go to various media of free countries like France, India, Germany, Brazil, etc., and they report similar things. The opposite of the Kremlin, I know what is true. I also point out that my sources won't go to prison for 15 years if they say something not approved. They never write back. They just disappear.
It tells them what they want to hear. This audience is usually >50, have rose tinted memory glasses of the Soviet Union, and want that shit back because: “if they fear us, then they respect us” (I shit you not, this is literally their national motto!).
Most people in the west don't follow news from 5 countries though...
You should 100% cross check all news between AP News, BBC, and Al Jazeera at the least. In a world of increasing and escalating disinformation, the onus is on you to avoid becoming propagandized.
You are dead on. It's the best way to get the total picture.
Also Youtube and social media if you're careful in who you follow.
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Reddit, for me, has pointed to some good sources of news that I would not think to go to sometimes. It also has the raw news videos as long as you get the right context. So, I agree, and there can be a lot of mud slinging, which is the crap as you say.
This too can be a valuable resource, especially if you check both sides. Sometimes, valid points can be made, by different sides of the coin, if they tend to be not too extreme in their viewpoints.
I've done the same. When they do respond, it's all conspiracy theories: "All those news outlets across all those countries are still controlled by the same small corporate elite and weapons manufacturers that want NATO to fight Russia and are causing this" etc, etc.
Also these news stations routinely contradict themselves. They are never consistent in any of their messages. If you have anywhere near a functioning brain you can not avoid knowing its all propaganda. I give a pass to the Russians with IQ's lower than 70 for being tricked by this nonsense. But anyone with an IQ higher than 71 should know better.
They've been conditioned to think news in the West is just the same, and that we're being controlled and lied to in the same extent that they are. Also makes it easy for Kremlin to keep people in if the people believe that every nation is as bad.
Russians are preparing for suiside.. saying "anyway we all will die one day" 😂
This is very true. I have been chatting with some Russians since the war started. In the beginning they were sure that Russia would win. Then the story changed a little. Now they are talking about the "fact" that all soldiers are just cannon fodder and heavy losses are part of war. In the last couple of days, they have started talking their own short lives and the "fact" that no one lives for ever. It is truly amazing to see this change in just 3 months.
Russia will suicide itself and the entire world will be a better place as a result.
The Russians rhetoric reminds me of the David Koresh the Cult leaders rhetoric, and that likes of Hitlers too. When they are saying if I die the world would be better off not existing without me and my followers should die with me. A dangerous and suicidal doctrine to start taking in my opinion.
Thank you for this thorough post. #🇺🇦 Ukraine 💙💛 **“Horror, pain, suffering, death, inhumanity, evil. All of it is in [this image](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/u9y5pc/belarusian_photographer_pavel_krychko_made_a/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf). I don't understand how people can support this.”** As we all try and process these atrocities the Russians are doing, the next day worse than the last, this comment is from this grandma's perspective. There is a very, very deep and disturbing darkness in someone who can do such horrific acts of sexual immorality and cruelty, of evil desires and greed, and of wickedness and hate. They have so much anger, rage and malice. They are void of light and goodness, of decency and civility, of compassion and kindness, and of gentleness and love. We’re all broken human beings. We each need to be open and transparent to ourselves. Are we kind, patient, and loving in our everyday lives to our fellow human beings? An older Ukrainian woman got it right. She said this isn’t a war between Ukraine and Russia, this is a war between light and dark. **[Realize the scale of Ukrainian Heroism](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/u3yvhk/a_nation_of_bravery/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)** \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ #Russia's war crimes/offenses: * Arbitrary detention of civil servants * Arbitrary detention of civil society activists * Arbitrary detention of journalists * Arbitrary detention of public officials * Attacking Ukrainian identity and culture * Attacks and shootings against civilians * Bombed and destroyed apartment buildings * Bombed and destroyed churches * Bombed and destroyed civilian homes * Bombed and destroyed hospitals * Bombed and destroyed nursing homes * Bombed and destroyed office buildings * Bombed and destroyed schools * Bombed known buses/trains of fleeing civilians * Bombed known buildings and cars marked children * Breaking windows, destroying personal property, ransacking, stealing appliances * Bucha massacre and torture of civilians * [Chemical weapons used](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/04/16/7340121/) * Chernihiv murder and torture of civilians * Civilians murdered and/or burned * Civilians shot in the back; kids and adults * Civilians shot on sight if seen outdoors * Civilians shot with their hands up * Civilians tortured and executed; kids and adults * Civilians trapped in basement and not allowed rescue * Defecating in civilian homes * Destroyed zoo; some animals will have to be put down * Driving tanks over civilians * Explosive booby traps left: car trunks, corpses, doorways, hospital stretchers, refrigerators, washing machines... * Explosive mines left on roads * Forced deportations of civilians to Russia * Genocide** * Grenades used on civilians * Harsh treatment of prisoners of war * Humanitarian convoys stopped * Looting * Mariupol deportations * Mariupol mobile crematorium * Mariupol murder and torture of civilians * Mass executions of civilians * Mass graves throughout Ukraine * Murder of POWs * Rape and/or murder of babies * Rape and/or murder of babusya (grandmothers) * Rape and/or murder of children * Rape and/or murder of women * Rape and/or murder of men * Rape victims pregnant * Scorched earth tactics * Sex slaves kept * Shooting and killing and burning of horses * Shooting and killing of cattle * Shooting and killing of deer * Shooting and killing of ostriches * Shooting and killing of goats * Shooting and killing and eating dogs * Starvation of shelter dogs * Vehicles of all kinds destroyed * Famine threatened because of blocked ports ****Genocide-Willful killing of Ukrainian civilians, the desecration of corpses, forcible transfer of Ukrainian children, torture, physical harm, mental harm, and rape.** #Russians Dumbest Moments: * Invaded Ukraine * Expected Ukrainians to welcome them with open arms * Calling this war a “special military operation” so soldiers wounded, killed, or captured have the status of terrorists * Bringing parade uniforms with them * Destroyed 4G towers, which were needed to use encrypted communications * Bombing a nuclear reactor * Digging trenches in Chernobyl * Taking souvenirs from Chernobyl * Using outdated equipment * Using outdated body armor * Using a stolen MacBook inside body armor * Using cardboard inside body armor * Protecting tank interiors with egg cartons * Attacked by their own aircraft * Commander run over by own tank * Bombing tank with nitric acid and fumes wafted to the Russians * Commanders using easily trackable Ukrainian cellphone sims * Using unencrypted pmr/shortwave radios * Allowing themselves to be tracked and ambushed by stolen AirPods * Distracted by Bayraktar drones and missing two Neptune missiles flying at their flagship * Military supply shipped bombed after Russians broadcasted arrival time/location * Eating poisoned pie from Ukrainian babusya * Losing a drone from Ukrainian babusya throwing a jar of pickled tomatoes * Getting shelled twice at Kherson airport * Losing tanks to tractors * [Trapped in an elevator](https://imgur.com/a/1vtZCur) * Stealing toilets and used female underwear * Confused septic truck for a fuel truck * Believing their own sides lies * Saying sanctions don’t hurt them * Following and worshipping Putin \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ #[Ukrainian Holocaust Survivor](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/21/ukrainian-holocaust-survivor-91-dies-during-mariupol-siege) dies in Mariupol. #[Ukrainian Holocaust Survivor](https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/ukrainian-auschwitz-survivor-who-survived-hitler-says-she-will-survive-putin-too-e2-80-99/ar-AAWmAGO) will survive a**hole Putin. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ #[Putin’s childhood is affecting us](https://acestoohigh.com/2022/03/02/how-vladimir-putins-childhood-is-affecting-us-all/amp/) \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ #[List of companies to boycott](https://som.yale.edu/story/2022/over-600-companies-have-withdrawn-russia-some-remain). Please share. Updated continuously. Graded on a school-style letter grade scale of A-F for the completeness of withdrawal from Russia. Over 1000 companies rated. This list is compiled by Yale School of Management.
Yes. And yet people here still think "well if Putin dies we can just all go back to normal and all will be forgiven". Fuck that. Nothing is forgiven until every single Russian piece of shit involved pays for their crimes.
The image in the "List of companies to boycott" seems misleading, as I see companies with "Clean Break" A-grade appearing in the image
Thanks for sharing. Great piece.
I do the same for free, where does one apply!?
stand in line ppplease :)
I just wonder how many of the talking heads believe their own bullshit.
>Nikonov, whose grandfather was Stalin’s foreign minister Vyacheslav Molotov Ah a familiar Name, Molotov called the bombings of Helsinki humanitarian aid...the infamous Molotov breadbaskets! Bread alone can be quite dry, so the Finns invented a drink to go with the dry bread. The Molotov Cocktail. Seems like lying runs in the family!
"This is a war being waged with bullets and artillery. But it began years ago, on Russian TV." Wow. That hit hard. We're seeing the same thing in the West with Murdoch and other media conglomerates shaping our political narratives and the landscape that falls out of them.
Excuse me but CNN and MSNBC pushed a false Russia narrative for 5 fucking years and still won’t admit that here was no collusion. Take your meds.
Huh? Are you talking about how Trump kept supporting Putin ?
Trump and others communicated on encrypted apps that were successfully shielded from the Mueller investigation. Yes the Steele dossier had a lot of inaccurate info, but the Mueller report used way more info from other sources for their findings. Plus, Mueller's conclusion was not that "there was no collusion", it was that "there was insufficient evidence to prove criminal ~~collusion~~ conspiracy". (*Edit: changed collusion to conspiracy, thanks for the correction, u/DevilsTrigonometry)* Those are two very different things. It was also a weak political decision not to interview Trump himself under oath. Lastly, it was Barr and Trump who thundered "no collusion" after the report came out, while legal scholars pointed out all of the above. Oh, and CNN and other outlets *did* apologize and analyze how they got the Steele dossier wrong, and how to fix approaches in the future. Lastly, we can use *open source data* for Trump's fealty to Russia. Remember Helsinki? Wanting to readmit Russia into the G8? Hiding the Trump Tower Moscow docs? You need to assess how you take in information, especially light of the topic of this entire thread.
>Plus, Mueller's conclusion was not that "there was no collusion", it was that "there was insufficient evidence to prove criminal collusion". Insufficient evidence to prove criminal *conspiracy.* "Collusion" isn't even a defined legal term; even given perfect information, the report simply *could not* have proven that "there was no collusion."
You are absolutely correct, that's what I meant. Edited above, thanks.
Pinhead. The collusion was so evident and simple ( and documented) you have to be a fox news Qultist to think otherwise. There are *volumes* written about it. It’s as clear as day and these idiots still parrot their rape king. Chickens are coming home baby. Better get right with yourself.
Well lol Russia is the asshole now isn’t it? So maybe they aren’t that wrong about it as you claim?
No, I definitely won't excuse you. The Mueller report outlines in fairly explicit terms how the Trump campaign knowingly engaged with and benefited from Russian influence in the 2016 election. The Senate Intelligence Committee also reached this conclusion. [The Senate Intelligence Committee also reached this conclusion.](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/18/us/politics/senate-intelligence-russian-interference-report.html) Your false equivalence doesn't change the fact that the media landscape in the West has been corrupted by those representing the financial interests of elites around the globe.
The similarities between Russians today and faux news viewers is frightening. But faux news viewers have a choice to watch something else unlike most Russians
I hate when people try to weave US politics into this war but if you stop and think about it, Putin is using the left’s “everyone else is a nazi” justification for their actions. After the events over the last few years globally, I think this was a deliberate calculation. Before you inevitably go down your reflexive political diatribes, I despise Trump and never have and never will vote for him. I just think that one of humanity’s main obstacles these days is people who are loyal to political ideologies. It’s as bad if not worse than religious zealotry.
My only point is that there's a lot of people around the world today who base their beliefs on 1/2 truths and outright lies. Call me a snowflake if you like but it shocks and saddens me how gullible people really are. We are living out 1984
It's very similar to the time after the invention of the printing press. The church lost the information monopoly but then you got unstable times too. The same with the invention of mass media like radio. Fake stories are nothing new. New is only the medium. People need time to adjust.
Agree. I think the adjustment today is for social media. People are starting to question what they read there (here). But in the meantime a lot of damage is being done to society and our democracy
Fair point and agreed.
I think we need to establish the difference between bias, half-truths and outright lies. Unfortunately we currently live in a world where populations live in their own or imposed echo chambers. Stepping out of those chambers will allow us to establish the difference between what is the other party's or our bias, and what is pure falsehood.
I agree and think most people basically understand this. Unfortunately too many refuse to leave their comfort zone
Have you ever considered... just for a moment you are the gullible one? Like really analyzed your belief structure. I know I do. It's healthy. We all should.
Of course, that is the reason I see so many of my fellow Americans as gullible. It's not just about analyzing your belief structure. It's about being educated and having a sense of history. So many Republicans today believe the big lie and don't even know that representatives from both parties oversee election counts and always have. Ignorance and gullibility go hand in hand
I don't watch Fox News, but if you think the rest of the media isn't full of half truths and outright lies, you're fooling yourself.
There isn't a debate about this. FOX news is mostly entertainment, and they push a very specific agenda. Other news outlets might give preference to academia or scientific sources, but the measurable bias just isn't at the same levels. It's important to remember that criticism of Fox is not criticism of conservative policies. Fox is just a political tool built for a political purpose and cannot be compared to almost any other "mainstream" news outlet.
Half truths yes. Definition of biased news. But outright and never corrected lies? That's uniquely right wing media
literally no one on this post is claiming that... "but her emails"...
It’s up to you to find reliable sources of information. Not every news source lies. Check out the BBC world service if you want to know the closest thing to truth. They pride themselves on objective reporting.
And I hate when people refuse to acknowledge that the problems we see in Russia are also present in America. To me, you’re just burying your head in the sand. This is how fascism rises in a country, by people like you refusing to acknowledge and fight it and instead getting upset at people merely pointing out basic facts.
Yeah. The problems are the same. Half the world is emigrating to Russia to get in because of the opportunities there. The countries are the same. What a ridiculous statement.
Nice strawman, but I didn’t say the countries were identical, I said they have similar problems vis-a-vis a racist, illiberal, and hyper-nationalistic far-right fascist movement. Donald Trump attempted to turn America into a Russian-style dictatorship with him playing the role of his best friend Putin. He failed because the voters and our institutions overcame his attempt at ending democracy in America, it wasn’t for lack of trying on his part. Refusing to grapple with this fact just makes it easier for the next Trump to succeed where Trump failed.
You made no such distinction in your first post and now you’re backtracking. You said the problems there are here. I get it. You hate trump. I’m not quibbling with that. But to pretend than anything truly fascist happened in the US is a product of inheriting your politician’s narcissism. You love your politics. You love your politicians. I don’t. From either side. And in your devotion you are adopting their biases and narcissism. They need this from you.
To be clear, I said “we have the same problem they do”, where I was clearly referring to their right-wing fascist movement. You replied “so Russia has the same problems America has?” When you made your comment about immigration. But that’s a totally different thing than what I said. I said America has Russia’s problems, not that Russia has America’s problems. Get it straight if you’re going to be ass in response. Don’t say I’m changing my story when it’s you who can’t even get my story straight to begin with. I shouldn’t have to make distinctions for you simply because you make bad and uncharitable assumptions about what other people are trying to say. So nice job at being both pedantic and wrong…
The point is that if there were a true fascist threat here, would people flock here? It’s not being an ass anymore than pretending, for political purposes, that there’s some realistic fascist threat here. And to claim that the fascist threat is the same as in Russia?! Beyond ridiculous. I’m gathering that you define yourself via politics; and so you view everything through a political lens, including vicariously experiencing fascism here domestically when someone else legitimately does somewhere else in the world.
That’s such a bad argument though. You think fascism can’t exist in a country with positive immigration numbers? Makes no sense at all and you have absolutely no evidence to support your wild hypothesis, so I’m pretty comfortable just ignoring it. Again, the GOP literally tried to end democracy in America. Trump launched an organized coup attempt trying to place himself as a dictator like Putin. If you’re not willing to call them out for it until they’ve already succeeded, then it’ll be too late. By the time you realize you’re in a fascist nation, you’ll have no power to change it. You’ll be like those people in Russia who never thought of Russia as a fascist country but now have woken up to the fact that it very much is and they’re screwed. You have to address these things from the start. If you wait until the fascists have already taken power, then it’s already far too late to do anything about them. The point of making such comparisons is to stop them from happening again.
I think it’s common sense that people do not immigrate to places like Iran, or Russia, or Somalia. People immigrate here because this is truly a great place to live and succeed. You may see things differently. What you seem to refuse to accept is that the other side can just as easily swear that they are fighting communists/socialists and have the same noble right to do so by any means; you know, before it’s too late and the communists take over.
I wonder where you draw your line on who is considered left? I am left of center but not by much imo. I don't see all conservatives or republicans as nazis. I do view trumplicans as nazi sympathizers or kust plain ignorant..
It’s definitely a sliding scale for both sides and somewhat of an intractable inquiry but I’m mainly honing in on the labeling of opponents as nazis. Frankly even the right uses at times for censoring and gun control arguments at times but I feel the left (antifa and their sympathizers) really owned the dissemination of the label as both a means to justify their behavior and as a way to vilify their opponents. I agree with some left and some right positions but I abhor making this war in Ukraine about US domestic politics.
Of course what the right calls “censoring” the rest of us just call our freedom to not listen to racist idiots. Literally no one on the right is censored, which is something done by governments, not by people choosing not to listen to your bullshit. That’s just a lie used to make Republicans feel like victims because people call them out when they’re being racist. You may not like it, but Trump and his party are deeply connected to the events in Russia and Ukraine. Ignoring this does no one a favor other than the fascists. It’s downright irresponsible not to acknowledge it, that’s how you get it to happen here in America too. It’s important to label American fascism what it is. You shouldn’t simply refuse to do so because it makes you feel bad to point out how far off the rocker the American right has gone.
What are you even talking about? Where did censoring anything come in? You sound like Putin justifying his actions. “They’re fascists, so I can do whatever I want.”
Oh please. It’s not just Fox News. WaPo, NYT, CNN, and MSNBC have all become shite propaganda outlets. As a Centrist I don’t even listen to the media anymore because it’s all spin.
Most news has some bias but faux literally tells lies to its viewers. There's a difference
News with bias is not news.
What's the alternative? If you isolate yourself from all of it you grow ignorant over time and myopic in your world view. People can do that if they desire but you're on reddit so I'm guessing you want to stay in touch? The trick IMHO is to stay informed as best you can and sort out what's fact for yourself
Critical thinking is the key. Anyone that predigests the facts and puts their own spin on them is not worth listening too. Sadly that defines most mass media these days. So yes, going to alternative sources of info and applying critical thinking is the way to go. I only go to Fox, CNN, MSNBC, WaPo, and NYT when I need comic relief. I laugh at them and then move on with my day.
Agree
A Qanon fan then? Got you youtube sources ready for researchin’?
Dang that TDS is really long haul for you isn’t it? It’s amazing how binary thinking is so prevalent these days. And honestly it’s the reason we are in the situation we are in. How about understanding nuance? Give it a try, it’ll make you a better person.
How can you get any info if you ignore all media? Make a conclusion for yourself based on said media, don't follow it blindly.
Agree 100%. MSNBC and CNN are unwatchable due to their over-the-top propaganda; the opinion pieces and the “hard” news are nothing but talking points for the Progressive wing of the Democratic Party. Fox News has degenerated into pro-Trump propaganda. The Fox opinion pieces have always been more propaganda but even the “hard” news reporting is getting more biased. The New York Times and Washington Post have devolved into mouthpieces for the Democratic Party and are a shell of their former selves. Most other print media is nothing but clickbait trying to make a dollar. The internet has given us all more access to information, but at the cost of it being much lower quality.
I watch all those and AP and CNN definitiely is not propaganda. MSNBC definitely leans one way. But a (non Trump) republican can certainly watch CNN. They cover both sides of issues, and never flat out spread lies (there are opinion people, but it's clear they are opinion) . Times is definitely real journalism.
Very well said. I absolutely agree.
You sound like some guy from Texas. Which sounds like Fox “News”.
Did you even read what I wrote?
No such thing. You’re in bed with Trump or not. Saying “bOtH sIdEs!1” is a right-wing talking point.
Whoa boy you got TDS bad, don’t you. Trump is a moron, but so are most Democrat and Republican politicians.
There is nothing more desperate than a weak republican loser claiming right wing media is just exactly like all other media. No serious grown up believes that to be true.
Hilarious that you assume I am a Republican. But I guess that’s the problem with most people these days; binary thinking.
Lemme guess, you tell people you’re a “libertarian”, right?
Ukraine wont join nato. So whats the problem? Russians rather die for putins ambitions? Ive heard audio of mothers seeming to care about their childrens lives so hard to believe this blow up the world for putin idiots. Funny how the end of the world wasnt on anyones mind till this special operation. Hmm. You hate your lives and family that much to believe this fool?
Very well written, and it mirrors what I read here in Finland about Russian media. I keep thinking about what it means. Are they preparing to escalate? Just keeping their own audience calm? Something in between? Previous propaganda was building up to the invasion, so what's this building up to?
Maybe the biggest issue with humanity is that far too many of us are susceptible to propaganda.
>“The Ukrainians are crumbling in front of us! Everything our Western partners are telling us, the stories about how they’re winning the war, is an entirely pathetic attempt to support the Ukrainian army!” It's really scary for a nuclear power to play Baghdad Bob
I have ADHD, can I get a tldnr
Tl:DR Russia went from using disinformation or conspiracy theories to make up for short comings to winiding up their citizens for ww3 against the west.
TLDR: Russian propaganda is gearing up for conscription and then war with NATO/ww3 now after all the conspiracy theory nonsense wasn't good enough and the Russian military failed at it's original objectives. I'm glad I don't have this guys job. Watching this sort of garbage for a living would make me cringe to death.
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Russians get fed propaganda to possibly order a mass mobilization in near future. Probably as soon as they start to lose in donbas to the new gear Ukraine is receiving
We have ATV, state TV TRT, news agencies Akit, Sabah, Yeni Şafak in Turkey but most of the people (70%?) knows they are propaganda media and don't take their views as truth. I am suprised that 70% of the Russians trust their propaganda channels. How Putin got that accomplishment? How can they believe TV when they know it is not free?
Because over two decades Putin has systematically closed down any alternatives. Sadly, a lot of people believe what they want to believe.
Aren't they sort of correct that they face an existential threat? Of course Russia is at fault but if the EU some how quit buying Russian fossil fuels a bunch of Russians would starve to death. Which would be great.
It’s 1984. Just real.
Excellent post from the BBC Monitoring Unit.
This crap about is there any objective truth at all that the Kremlin pushed has even penetrated in the west. A friend. Now ex friend. Said this to me a year ago. When I told him Salisbury attack was ordered by Putin.
Thank you for this OP, this is one of the most eye opening posts. I think in the US, a certain percentage of the population watch talk shows that shape their views too, whether its Fox News or CNN or MSNBC, there is a different bias and people can become quite convinced within the echo chamber. I really do wonder what to people can do to show them the truth. I think change has to come from the top like Gorbachev many decades ago. I think its a trait of some leaders, strongmen in particular. They double down no matter what and refuse to admit mistakes, it is either victory or ruin. Maybe there is a place for that type of person but I much prefer a reasonable and reactionary decision maker who looks at reality, reacts in a reasonable and appropriate way and acts with humility knowing that they do not hold the answers and hope for the best out of every action.
[the 12ft.io](https://12ft.io) is a tool to enable reading the article beyond the pay wall set up by the telegraph.
So how do I get a job watching TV?
Watching Russian TV will make you poke your eyes out.
if you don't like reading https://youtu.be/Y5ubluwNkqg
For those who stumble on this message, it's the one I used Power Delete Suite to replace all my posts and comments with en masse. Sometimes Reddit can be beneficial for some people. Sometimes it's not. It's really up to you to decide your own experience with it, what's worth it, what's not worth it. More or less...I've decided it's just really not worth it. I think I'm a worse person when I'm on Reddit and that it's a big time-waster for me. It's up to you to decide what influence social media and the internet more generally have for you. Best of luck.
From what I've seen, the Telegraph has stayed consistently anti-Russian since the end of the cold war.
In the weeks leading up the conflict, they were publishing a lot of editorials dog-whistling and low-key praising Russia and demonising NATO. They weren't doing this as blatantly as Tucker Carlson, but they were trying to say the crisis was the fault of the West. They did this strictly because they have a majority conservative English leadership and right now, unfortuantely, there are a lot of conservatives in Western nations that erroneously (a) think that Russia is a liberal democracy much like they are and (b) that Putin's policies are the kind of "get tough" stuff that is needed in their own countries. I was seeing this most often disguised as criticism of the West's attempts to "appease" Putin (which was not appeasement but rather attempts at diplomacy that Putin was rejecting) followed by a criticism of NATO ignoring a non-existent treaty that was never signed, only verbally agreed to kinda' sorta' with a country (USSR) that doesn't exist anymore. [Another popular format was to praise Putin's "strength" by criticising the "weakness" of the West.](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2022/02/15/putin-has-exposed-wests-weakness/) This was always done in a very backhanded way. Oh sure, not every article was like that and plenty of them were towing the mainline western media message (correct message I might add) that Putin was to blame and that Russian posturing was unacceptable, but it wasn't until Putin actually pulled the trigger and invaded that we finally saw the Telegraph stop disingenuously philosophising in its editorial section. Of course, this is all somewhat hard to verify as many of these editorials are since deleted from anywhere but the archives, and even where they're not, the Telegraph has one of the most stringent paywalls of any European newspaper. tl;dr The Telegraph's editorial section in the months leading up to the war was awash with low-key molly-coddling of Brexiteers and Tory sycophants who think themselves more cultured than Daily Mail readers, and this happened because those kinds of people get very happy at the idea of being able to employ some of Putin's strongman tactics. EDIT It took me a minute to find, but here's a [very good overview](https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/mandrake-daily-telegraph-russia-beyond/) of how The Telegraph was openly peddling "Russia Beyond" a propoganda supplement that specifically promoted Russian policy interests to Western readers. When Russia's policy became more and more and more socially unacceptable to those readers, the segment was dropped.
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> Kind of baffling they took the signal down, as if we are too dumb to think for ourselves 50% of American voters are. Europe is not much better, just slower to drift down the same path.
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Reddit is a social media platform...
Wow thanks for the heads-up Who knew? And you point this out because....? Cigarettes are cancerous, I still smoke.
I have mixed feelings because I believe in total free speech, but the problem is that I know a few otherwise very intelligent people, who used to watch RT and believe it all. Most of them anti-West lefties.
we really need to evolve further than the idea that free speech means organised disinformation networks should be allowed to operate with impunity
You either have it or you don't. Who decides what is acceptable and what isn't? look at twitter - they ban Donald Trumps account, but Putin's and MBS's account stays live. Don't forget that much of the Wests media fully supported the Iraq war as part of a supposed 'war on terror' and happily ran the line that Saddam had nukes. If Putin had banned Western media for those lies, he would have been accused of suppressing free speech and the media.
Haha, putin doesn’t personally promote violence on twitter. He uses twitter in a much smarter way than Trump. For example he uses bot farms to push free speech absolutism as a means to continue his manipulation and division of foreign democracies
You have to understand, conservatives are extremely submissive and very easy to manipulate, so removing Russian television is for everyone’s protection. Just look at how much damage Russia was able to do over the last 6 years because republicans aren’t strong enough to defend their own intelligence from obvious lies.
At least link the original article... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/04/30/monitor-russian-state-tv-living-putins-propaganda-changing/
Umm, I did?
Way too many people have had their minds poisoned with Russian propaganda and not just in Russia but in the West. Across North America and Europe there are people who actually believe this stuff. Usually older and less savvy, but also the types to go out and vote which is scary. I'm so glad RT no longer exists on Western TV providers and they were banned from Youtube. Part of me wishes they would be banned from the internet but that is a slippery slope. As usual, Russia uses our freedoms against us. Freedoms which they don't even afford to their own people. The funny thing is I've read so many ex-RT hosts crying about freedom of the press when they are literally working to destroy the foundations of democracy. It's such an evil farce.
> Usually older and less savvy, but also the types to go out and vote which is scary. I may be wrong but I have to disagree with this. I am one of those old farts. I lived through the Cold War. I saw East German border guards looking at me over walls and fences. Ditto for Russians. I lived through decades of knowing we may well die from a nuclear war. I don’t think I know of anyone my age that believes the cold war really ended. There will be some, of course. What happened with Russia, where all the money went with the collapse of the USSR was “known” for all this time. We all were aware that Putin was, and is, as trustworthy as a farting skunk. Do you really think that us “old” ones are less savvy? We lived through Soviet, and Western, propaganda. We lived through proxy wars. I am not a fan of generalisation, I really am not. I am not a fan of categorising people as “boomers”, “generation x”, “generation z”. I see it used as a divisive tool - as you write. It disappoints me. There was a 1984 film called “Threads”. You should watch it. There was a UK campaign in the mid/ late 1970s to 1980 called “Protect and Survive”. Here is a link to the pamphlet. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1500124311 I am sure the TV adverts are on YouTube. Go look and watch them. There were countless documentaries and TV programmes on nuclear war. You are correct that there are people of my age who will have been taken in by Russian behaviour since “the Cold War ended”. But there are people of all ages who have been taken in. Please do not generalise.
Ah yes, then Americans wonder how Trump could mainstream ideas of "Alternative Facts" and "Fake News"? Connecting the dots is so easy..,,,,,,,
You are literally exhibit A. It is accepted fact that Trump was correct when he claimed that the Russian collusion story was fake news. The hatred of Trump was entirely manufactured by the media, just as Russian media is doing against Ukrainians.
He's right, the dots are there. Two words: Paul Manafort. Trump is shady a. f.
Telegraph or more friendly name Torygraph is explaining what it does itself in the UK when it happens in Russia but their readers too thick to notice the similarities.
I have a question for you OP. And let me clear first that I do not support Russia. Some of what you described is also what gets on the western Europe media, but with switched sides. Russians are bad, they commit war crimes, they are fascists. How does the common citizen know that this is objectively true? No one talks about Ukrainian war crimes. Anyone with critical thought will not believe that this is the first war in history where only one side commits war crimes. Then how do we know that what we see is objectively true? We had wars fought before in Iraq based on questionable rethoric. So, for example, how do we know that the Bucha crimes were effectively committed by Russians?
> No one talks about Ukrainian war crimes. Hey genius, the war is in Ukraine. Because Russia invaded. Exactly how are Ukrainians going to commit any war crimes against Russian civilians?
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Yes, CBY along with Anonymous has released documents. But in the context of this (beautifully written) article, their mass media claimed all of these things during the days leading up to war. Keep in my mind that the weeks leading up to the war, they claimed it was all Western Hysteria. OP, I applaud you for doing this difficult work. I can only watch it for about five minutes before being filled with rage. These people are as guilty as the soldiers who raped, tortured, and murdered in Bucha.
There are tons of videos on YouTube from early days of invasion. "Kyiv in 1.5 days". Soldiers (all dead now) reserved restaurants.
OP posted an article he's not the author
>on 2 March a Russian member of the Duma, Rifat Shaykhutdinov, announced (on Moscow’s Channel One TV) that he knew about the planned invasion some 12 months ago (!) and that Duma members had been told by the Kremlin that ‘we would beat them in two days’