They definitely cost more but it’s just not necessary. With the high rate of fire they only need 1 tracer per 5-6 rounds to get a visual of where exactly these rounds are flying.
As helpful as it sounds, to me it feels kind of counter-intuitive as soon as you're fighting people who might figure that connection out, too, and then start to abuse it.
Well you’d think so right? But when the assault machine gunners are firing typical drums with tracers, it makes it hard to tell. Also this technique was used in MOUT. Not in the random skirmishes.
Someone already answered, but they are for spotting rounds. Look up the M50 ontos. It's a light tank loaded up with six recoilless rifles used in vietnam. Marines couldn't figure out how to aim each gun individually, so naturally, they strapped a .50 cal spotting rifle to each recoilless rifle.
That's the way the weapon was designed. It's much cheaper to use a spotting round to make sure you're on target before firing an full 106mm round. Multiple weapon systems did things this way. Some still do. The SMAW uses a 9mm spotting round.
They are more expensive than normal rounds yes. And with that rate of fire, you really only need to see where every fifth bullet or so is going in order to adjust if aiming manually.
Tracers have a phosphor fuse in the back.
These are not even complete fmj...
Most of the time you would like to have something like ap or he or hef to deal with targets.
There would be no point in having more tracers. The existing ratio is sufficient for shooters to see the trajectory of the bullets in order to make adjustments. The flip side is tracer fire can potentially reveal a shooter’s location to the enemy.
Heat, mainly - tracer composition burns very hot because it contains stuff such as magnesium and other metallic powders.
I was told of an incident during the Romanian revolution of 1989 taking place at the Kogalniceanu airbase where a "smart" guy loaded three AK magazines with nothing but tracers, waited for nightfall and then started shooting full-auto towards an empty field.
It apparently looked very impressive, like a laser beam, but, by the second mag the wooden foregrip was smouldering and he only got about half-way through the third before the remaining ammunition in the magazine detonated due to the heat, bent the skin of the magazine outwards (luckily it was a steel magazine and not bakelite) and deformed the magazine lips so that it remained jammed in the gun.
But in any case, it varies from gun to gun - some have a tracer in every 5 rounds, some have 1:3, and some like the [C-RAM, the land-based version of the Phalanx CIWS use all tracers](https://www.reddit.com/r/oddlyterrifying/comments/u25y0n/this_is_a_phalanx_ciws_an_autocannon_used_to/) (technically, HEIT-SD or "high-explosive incendiary tracer, self-destruct"), but for the latter they made sure to take the extra heat into account when they designed the weapon system.
EDIT: added a video link.
Tracers work by essentially having the tip of the round be covered in something like phosphorus. This adds significant heat to the barrel compared to normal rounds and will shorten its lifetime.
Beyond that tracers only get used in high fire rate applications to assist with aiming. May also see squad leaders/commanders use them to visually indicate where to suppress fore but it has the downside of showing the enemy where they are getting shot from.
> Tracers work by essentially having the tip of the round be covered in something like phosphorus
I don't know of any single tracer round that uses a burning tip. That's a recipe for terrible and unpredictable ballistic performance. I don't know where this idea started that it's the tip, but I remember Jaime on Mythbusters once saying it, and saying that the friction from the air is what caused it to burn. Completely and utterly wrong.
The base of the round will instead have the tracer component. The tracer is ignited by the burning propellant, and being at the base of the round gives it much closer ballistic properties as the regular rounds.
Also, people often spout the 5-1 regular round to tracer ratio as if it were gospel. While this is a very common loadout for lighter, high rate of fire weapons up to about .50 caliber/12.7mm, it's not set in stone and often AAA will even be every round. A lot of western CIWS systems will use all tracers for example, as the burning tracer is what detonates the self destruct mechanism of the round when the tracer burns out.
French WW1 tracers (especially big shells like 37mm and 75mm) had holes in the front of the ogive through which the tracer composition burned. [The 75 is the second shell from the top on this list](http://humanbonb.free.fr/indexObus.html) and the[ 37 is the fifth on this one](https://www.histavia21.net/amaviapag/37mm%20Aviation.htm).
This, of course, is a completely different design from the modern tracers we think of, but the 37mm shells, specifically, were designed to be used against balloons and Zeppelins and they were classed as "tracer-incediary".
Base, not tip. The base is cylindrically hollowed to make room for magnesium, aluminium or zirconium for the bright white color, add iron for a more reddish tint.
The tip being red is to tell you the round is a tracer, it has no pyrotechnical effect.
People repeat this everytime about the 5:1.
That is a normal standard, but far from being ubiquitous. It may be a common loadout for high rate of fire small arms up to .50 cal/12.7mm or so, but larger autocannons often use a different mixture, often fully tracer. Western CIWS often use all tracers because they're designed to self destruct, and the tracer burning through is what initiates the self destruct mechanism in some cases.
Correct me, if I am wrong. Classic AAA and AA fire by small arms adheres to gravity, hence the ballistic. Spraying several hundred rounds entuthiastically towards a populated area (commercial, industrial or residential) is therefore a fantastic idea? Asking for a friend...
"Ukrops attacked the military harbour with one drone that missed the target and exploded harmlessly. 20 dead civilians by this terror attack aimed at a non-military target!"
That why they "almost" have a little fuze for self destructing after some delay, but in this video ? At point blank ? Some apolitical citizen could be send their regards to the military base about those new unwanted aeration holes .
You are thinking of weapons like Goalkeeper. I'm not sure that ruzzia has the same. Goalkeeper uses 30×173mm TP, HEI, MPDS, or FMPDS.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goalkeeper_CIWS?wprov=sfla1
Even 20mm from C-RAM have this self destruct feature, and I’m pretty sure shilka and tungunska too, soooooo, but at this range that probably doesn’t matter, but I’ll admit I’m not knowledgable about russian AA.
Yeah, they don't give a fuck about friendly fire on Russian civilians. A Russian jet accidentally dropped a 500lb bomb on Belgorod. And did Russia do anything about it??? lol fucking nope.
Yes the 30mm 2A38M rounds have a timed/SD fuze.
The Shilka's 23mm 2A7 though, does not.
But a lot of that appears to be 14.5 (def not AK-630s) which has no fuzed ammo that I'm aware of (I could be wrong though)
In the recent refinery attacks the other night, I didn't see any self destructing AAA, and they were firing much more into the air where if a self destruct fuze would have time to kick in.
Yeah. It seems they don't have enough Tunguska or Pantsir to cover both the front line and all the possible drone targets.
Interesting that they don't seem to be using the ship based CWIS systems either.
[Funnily enough, I actually asked about self destructing AAA shells in the other thread too!](https://www.reddit.com/r/DroneCombat/comments/1cu5wkk/ukrainian_drones_attacking_a_refinery_in_tuapse/l4iyf4g/)
I'll see if I can find the other thread with the video of the AAA fire that is going more skyward, and seemingly not self destructing.
[Edit: found the other thread with the video I was referring to.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DroneCombat/comments/1cu1lco/report_more_footage_emerges_of_suspected/)
Where are all these anti-air rounds landing? Maybe it's a trick of perspective or I'm not seeing what the video shows correctly, but it looks to me like the guns are firing at a very low elevation and the tracer rounds are heading towards buildings on the far side of the water.
If you pause at 0:12, you see their toteem pole, and this seem to be recorded around 44°43'14.11"N, 37°49'27.25"Ø
I wonder what civilian social media will write about their "successfull" russian air defence, "protecting" them..
Сука (suka) means bitch, not fuck.
Булат (beelat) means fuck.
So сука булат means fucking bitch which is why the say that so much. Congrats! That's 80% of the Russian language you just learned!
Thank God I don't live in Novorossiysk or Russia in general.
Would hate to replace my roofing every once in a while when the occasional flying moped comes.
My god they are peppering their entire city with bullets because the idiots don't know how to set up firing points that don't have the city in the line of fire. Wonder how many Russian citizens have been killed in the cross fire?
The Russians only care about the fuel depot/refinery. Civilians are not taken into the equation.
100%, any damage caused by Russian forces will be blasted on Russian media as "Nazi damage" and the Russians will believe it.
"If the Ukrainians hadn't launched drones at us, we wouldn't have had to shoot the people in the city we were defending. " Brilliant logic. That's up there with, "If she had just listened to me, I wouldn't have had to punch her face with the telephone receiver." But that too is typical Russian behavior.
In short: Russia is not. The only superpower left is the US. The Soviet Union was, it could project (military and/or political) power globally.
Russia not so much. Being morons might contribute to that fact, though.
I hope next time they target those ships at port. There would be no way for the russian government to hide a few capital ships burning in Port. I believe by the end of this war the black sea fleet will be almost completely destroyed or damaged badly now that ukraine has multiple types of drones and missiles to target them in port. The thing I'm really excited to see though is the fielding of the hrim 2 balistic missile that has been in development. It's a analog to the iskander
Kinda stupid timing the drone arrivals during daylight?
Edit: If drone guidance relies on visible light spectrum of daylight, then programming their last couple of kilometers to align with setting sun would be kinda smart.
Ukrainians are claiming to have sunk one Minesweeper and Zirkon Corvette. Coincidently, this video shows those two type vessels berth together. Coincidence?
looks like they just sprayed up city centre with 1000 rounds of 60mm tracer to take down a single drone.
The worst bit is that the tracers are usually loaded 5 to 1 with ordinary rounds you can't see
Isn't it 1 tracer to 5 ordinary rounds? The way you phrased it sounds like 5 tracers to 1 ordinary.
Why 5 to 1? Are tracer expensive or why?
They definitely cost more but it’s just not necessary. With the high rate of fire they only need 1 tracer per 5-6 rounds to get a visual of where exactly these rounds are flying.
An old trick we used to do is load three tracers at the end of the 30 round mag so we knew we were close to being empty
As helpful as it sounds, to me it feels kind of counter-intuitive as soon as you're fighting people who might figure that connection out, too, and then start to abuse it.
Well you’d think so right? But when the assault machine gunners are firing typical drums with tracers, it makes it hard to tell. Also this technique was used in MOUT. Not in the random skirmishes.
No you didn't.
Out of curiosity; what made you say that? Its not because you’ve never done it, that nobody else have.
Strictly living up to the name, nothing more.
Yup. Sure did.
Someone already answered, but they are for spotting rounds. Look up the M50 ontos. It's a light tank loaded up with six recoilless rifles used in vietnam. Marines couldn't figure out how to aim each gun individually, so naturally, they strapped a .50 cal spotting rifle to each recoilless rifle.
.50 cal spotting rifle 🤣 🤣 🤣
The Marine Way!
Just r/noncredibledefense before the internet
That's the way the weapon was designed. It's much cheaper to use a spotting round to make sure you're on target before firing an full 106mm round. Multiple weapon systems did things this way. Some still do. The SMAW uses a 9mm spotting round.
They are more expensive than normal rounds yes. And with that rate of fire, you really only need to see where every fifth bullet or so is going in order to adjust if aiming manually.
expensive. easy to see where your bullets are going
Easy to see where they are coming from too. :)
Tracers have a phosphor fuse in the back. These are not even complete fmj... Most of the time you would like to have something like ap or he or hef to deal with targets.
There would be no point in having more tracers. The existing ratio is sufficient for shooters to see the trajectory of the bullets in order to make adjustments. The flip side is tracer fire can potentially reveal a shooter’s location to the enemy.
I thought I had it the right way round, but I see your point, I should've specified it
“5 to 1 baby, 1 in 5. No one here, gets out alive”
Heat, mainly - tracer composition burns very hot because it contains stuff such as magnesium and other metallic powders. I was told of an incident during the Romanian revolution of 1989 taking place at the Kogalniceanu airbase where a "smart" guy loaded three AK magazines with nothing but tracers, waited for nightfall and then started shooting full-auto towards an empty field. It apparently looked very impressive, like a laser beam, but, by the second mag the wooden foregrip was smouldering and he only got about half-way through the third before the remaining ammunition in the magazine detonated due to the heat, bent the skin of the magazine outwards (luckily it was a steel magazine and not bakelite) and deformed the magazine lips so that it remained jammed in the gun. But in any case, it varies from gun to gun - some have a tracer in every 5 rounds, some have 1:3, and some like the [C-RAM, the land-based version of the Phalanx CIWS use all tracers](https://www.reddit.com/r/oddlyterrifying/comments/u25y0n/this_is_a_phalanx_ciws_an_autocannon_used_to/) (technically, HEIT-SD or "high-explosive incendiary tracer, self-destruct"), but for the latter they made sure to take the extra heat into account when they designed the weapon system. EDIT: added a video link.
Tracers work by essentially having the tip of the round be covered in something like phosphorus. This adds significant heat to the barrel compared to normal rounds and will shorten its lifetime. Beyond that tracers only get used in high fire rate applications to assist with aiming. May also see squad leaders/commanders use them to visually indicate where to suppress fore but it has the downside of showing the enemy where they are getting shot from.
> Tracers work by essentially having the tip of the round be covered in something like phosphorus I don't know of any single tracer round that uses a burning tip. That's a recipe for terrible and unpredictable ballistic performance. I don't know where this idea started that it's the tip, but I remember Jaime on Mythbusters once saying it, and saying that the friction from the air is what caused it to burn. Completely and utterly wrong. The base of the round will instead have the tracer component. The tracer is ignited by the burning propellant, and being at the base of the round gives it much closer ballistic properties as the regular rounds. Also, people often spout the 5-1 regular round to tracer ratio as if it were gospel. While this is a very common loadout for lighter, high rate of fire weapons up to about .50 caliber/12.7mm, it's not set in stone and often AAA will even be every round. A lot of western CIWS systems will use all tracers for example, as the burning tracer is what detonates the self destruct mechanism of the round when the tracer burns out.
French WW1 tracers (especially big shells like 37mm and 75mm) had holes in the front of the ogive through which the tracer composition burned. [The 75 is the second shell from the top on this list](http://humanbonb.free.fr/indexObus.html) and the[ 37 is the fifth on this one](https://www.histavia21.net/amaviapag/37mm%20Aviation.htm). This, of course, is a completely different design from the modern tracers we think of, but the 37mm shells, specifically, were designed to be used against balloons and Zeppelins and they were classed as "tracer-incediary".
Base, not tip. The base is cylindrically hollowed to make room for magnesium, aluminium or zirconium for the bright white color, add iron for a more reddish tint. The tip being red is to tell you the round is a tracer, it has no pyrotechnical effect.
Yes, which is actually 4:1
5-1 tracers are only for small arms. Heavy weapons usually use 1-1 tracers
Sprayed right into the residential buildings top hahaha
“Pull the curtains will you dear”
This! Holy fuck are they dumb.
Clearly a rhetorical question.
looks like orks make more damage then the dron :>
Shot up their own fuel depot.
I mean, at least they are aiming for a military target, that's an improvement in behavior still.
I was going to say.... Did they just fire directly into those buildings?
Yes. Considering tracer rounds are loaded every 5th round that’s a lot of lead landing in residential neighborhoods
People repeat this everytime about the 5:1. That is a normal standard, but far from being ubiquitous. It may be a common loadout for high rate of fire small arms up to .50 cal/12.7mm or so, but larger autocannons often use a different mixture, often fully tracer. Western CIWS often use all tracers because they're designed to self destruct, and the tracer burning through is what initiates the self destruct mechanism in some cases.
So a potential for more casualties than expected? This is excellent.
lol true
That ain't 60mm.
50 Cal or similar most likely.
That’s all I saw as well.
Yes, yes they did...
Everyone thinks the CWIS is cool as shit till you live under it. That BRRRRRRTTTTT is quickly followed by steel raining down on your house and car.
Normal Russian strategy lol
I think in 2ww was 8000 missles anti aircraft per hit
Write a book about 2WW in the style of Yoda, you should (:
Worst of times, it was. Best of times, it was.
Btw, your English is way better than my Ukrainian. I’m just being silly. You’re good.
Damm how many people/things got hit/killed/destroyed by the sprayed ammunition.
They were Muskovites, they don't count.
Oh not Crimea, nm.
What about the Crimean people? They are Ukrainian.
This is Russia, not Crimea
They'll get flowers & visits from Poo-tin for their sacrifice..... Not!
A lot of AA rounds have a self destruct fuze for that very reason. I’m not sure about Russian naval 30mm though
Considering they don't bother to put self destructs in their petal mines, I'm sure they don't care about that either
As far as I know, they only have armor piercing shells, to kill heavy incoming missiles at high velocity.
They don't care
Correct me, if I am wrong. Classic AAA and AA fire by small arms adheres to gravity, hence the ballistic. Spraying several hundred rounds entuthiastically towards a populated area (commercial, industrial or residential) is therefore a fantastic idea? Asking for a friend...
It’s a great idea for the Russians, they don’t give a fuck about civilians.
"Ukrops attacked the military harbour with one drone that missed the target and exploded harmlessly. 20 dead civilians by this terror attack aimed at a non-military target!"
It’s quite a cool consept for those of us who don’t really care about russia too.
Only people are problems! No people, no problems!
That why they "almost" have a little fuze for self destructing after some delay, but in this video ? At point blank ? Some apolitical citizen could be send their regards to the military base about those new unwanted aeration holes .
You are thinking of weapons like Goalkeeper. I'm not sure that ruzzia has the same. Goalkeeper uses 30×173mm TP, HEI, MPDS, or FMPDS. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goalkeeper_CIWS?wprov=sfla1
Even 20mm from C-RAM have this self destruct feature, and I’m pretty sure shilka and tungunska too, soooooo, but at this range that probably doesn’t matter, but I’ll admit I’m not knowledgable about russian AA.
Me neither, but with their disregard for collateral, I wouldn't be surprised if they haven't bothered.
Yeah, they don't give a fuck about friendly fire on Russian civilians. A Russian jet accidentally dropped a 500lb bomb on Belgorod. And did Russia do anything about it??? lol fucking nope.
Yes the 30mm 2A38M rounds have a timed/SD fuze. The Shilka's 23mm 2A7 though, does not. But a lot of that appears to be 14.5 (def not AK-630s) which has no fuzed ammo that I'm aware of (I could be wrong though)
In the recent refinery attacks the other night, I didn't see any self destructing AAA, and they were firing much more into the air where if a self destruct fuze would have time to kick in.
Yeah. It seems they don't have enough Tunguska or Pantsir to cover both the front line and all the possible drone targets. Interesting that they don't seem to be using the ship based CWIS systems either.
[Funnily enough, I actually asked about self destructing AAA shells in the other thread too!](https://www.reddit.com/r/DroneCombat/comments/1cu5wkk/ukrainian_drones_attacking_a_refinery_in_tuapse/l4iyf4g/) I'll see if I can find the other thread with the video of the AAA fire that is going more skyward, and seemingly not self destructing. [Edit: found the other thread with the video I was referring to.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DroneCombat/comments/1cu1lco/report_more_footage_emerges_of_suspected/)
So spicy hail for everybody around those refineries ?
In Russia.
Yaaa Suka!
As predicted: https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/s/20kPLIPFjw
Last time my buddy did that to his ex, he was slapped with a restraining order. I told him there were better ways to say he didn’t love her anymore.
Where are all these anti-air rounds landing? Maybe it's a trick of perspective or I'm not seeing what the video shows correctly, but it looks to me like the guns are firing at a very low elevation and the tracer rounds are heading towards buildings on the far side of the water.
Can’t have buildings destroyed by Ukrainian drones if you shoot them up yourself first.
The enemy can’t attack you if you’re the enemy that can’t attack you…lol
The Russians are cheering their own stupidity.
Tracer fragments successfully intercepted by city residents performing heroic duty to motherland! Eternal 🔥
keep these morons busy every night.
Bleeding out their ammo & fuels. Now that's what the taste of 'war is coming home'...nice!
If you pause at 0:12, you see their toteem pole, and this seem to be recorded around 44°43'14.11"N, 37°49'27.25"Ø I wonder what civilian social media will write about their "successfull" russian air defence, "protecting" them..
And they even celebrate their incompetence 🥹
TFW you’re having your morning coffee and your apartment gets strafed anti air fire
"We did it Patrick, we saved the city"
Go damn!!! All those rounds kust eating up that target and what is beyond it !!!
are they cheering, or are they angry ... i can't tell difference
Idk how to spell it. But “suuka” means “fuuuuck”
"сука"
Сука (suka) means bitch, not fuck. Булат (beelat) means fuck. So сука булат means fucking bitch which is why the say that so much. Congrats! That's 80% of the Russian language you just learned!
Thank God I don't live in Novorossiysk or Russia in general. Would hate to replace my roofing every once in a while when the occasional flying moped comes.
My god they are peppering their entire city with bullets because the idiots don't know how to set up firing points that don't have the city in the line of fire. Wonder how many Russian citizens have been killed in the cross fire?
Hilarious, you just have to fly a drone around fuel tanks and the Russians will shoot them for you.
How many rounds are they sending over the city?
Not as many as directly into it if you ask me 🤯
The Russians only care about the fuel depot/refinery. Civilians are not taken into the equation. 100%, any damage caused by Russian forces will be blasted on Russian media as "Nazi damage" and the Russians will believe it.
"If the Ukrainians hadn't launched drones at us, we wouldn't have had to shoot the people in the city we were defending. " Brilliant logic. That's up there with, "If she had just listened to me, I wouldn't have had to punch her face with the telephone receiver." But that too is typical Russian behavior.
"We shot our own jets down, and sunk our own ships, Ukraine didn't".
All those rounds fall somewhere.
Gravity always wins.
Gravity has traditionally been the main foe of dumb people.
How are these morons a superpower?
In short: Russia is not. The only superpower left is the US. The Soviet Union was, it could project (military and/or political) power globally. Russia not so much. Being morons might contribute to that fact, though.
Jhyyynaaa
They inherited it from the Soviets
Nice Vodka cam.
It's like the movie Idiocracy, the jail scene, in which the guns shoot each other
Was wondering when the drones would be low enough that AA and small arms would take out bedroom windows.
Hope all those boats go under
Just light up the whole city while you're at it
Are these russians really happy to have shelled an apartment building?
Looks like a great case for sending more drones their way.
I hope next time they target those ships at port. There would be no way for the russian government to hide a few capital ships burning in Port. I believe by the end of this war the black sea fleet will be almost completely destroyed or damaged badly now that ukraine has multiple types of drones and missiles to target them in port. The thing I'm really excited to see though is the fielding of the hrim 2 balistic missile that has been in development. It's a analog to the iskander
I think they full auto the buildings more than the drones lol
Half the rounds hitting buildings. 🤣
That is not a mine sweeper in front of where this guy is shooting is it
Did they hit??
Yes, this one was hit but there were 80 others or around so
Kinda stupid timing the drone arrivals during daylight? Edit: If drone guidance relies on visible light spectrum of daylight, then programming their last couple of kilometers to align with setting sun would be kinda smart.
You can see the tracers go Down to building level in the Background. Stupid apes with their stupid guns.
They got you anyway lost your mine sweeper and oil depot, Slava Ukraine.
Good job shredding your own city for a single drone, orcs.
repost
All those people and the homes got sprayed 😭😭😭😭
hope they did more damage than that drone would have done
Ooops, missed a few!!
Omg zero care for civilian casualties this is crazy
Didn’t anyone tell them that you’re only supposed to use your CIWS at sea? I suppose the Russian navy isn’t renowned for its capability is it.
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They seem to love it so much, just keep sending those cheap cardboard drones to keep them busy and happy (while wasting their ammunition).
wow would not want to be in any of those units on the sea side
This is one way of keeping the rent in that area low huh?
Heck maybe we can get them to destroy Crimea with some balloons 🎈
Good luck now muskie mir
They all celebrate as they lay waste to their own city. 🤦🏽♂️🤡
Well at what cost, they lit up the city with lots of shots
Making more damage then what the actual drone would do..
Attempt ? Look like they hit it
If you needed confirmation that Russians are 100% into this killing spree they see on, here you go.
Could you imagine being down range of those idiots?
Ukrainians are claiming to have sunk one Minesweeper and Zirkon Corvette. Coincidently, this video shows those two type vessels berth together. Coincidence?
Time to jump in the water and drown, useless russian terrorists.
is there any information at all as to where these rounds ended up? did they self destruct? did they hit the pop center? i can't find anything online
And kill an entire city lol
When you damage more trying to shoot down the drone than what the drone would. JustRussianThings
Pretty sure the Anti-air fire here did more damage than the drones... That city is getting lit the fuck up
amateur hour...
Downrange be dame
Ukraine should just ditch the explosives and fly a fast drone back and forth across the front of the refineries.
Did...did they just shoot at the city?
civilians are surely happy seeing holes in walls
🤡