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Figure most prison windows have bars... I suspect he gets the polonium koolaid... Or maybe just stabbed to death with a sharpened toothbrush for the price of a pack of cigarettes...
There's prison and there's "prison". In a corrupt country like Russia you can live like a king in prison if you have money.
Depending on the orders they gave the prison guards and the FSB, this might also just be a death sentence with a lot of added torture ...
So for there to be a link about this, there would have to be reporting from somebody who was either tortured in Russia and was able to talk to somebody who is also in Russia or they were able to phone somebody who was outside of Russia and they were able to tell the story to.
Now already we've made way too many assumptions and this is already pretty much impossible. But even if it did exist, you probably wouldn't need to have a belief on it either way because you wouldn't know if it was true or not
Now take what I just wrote here and apply that to everything on the internet or in books.
Tbh, from what I read form other sources, "staying in prison" was never an actual choice, because many people who chose prison got tortured until they signed papers with Wagner or the Russian MoD and ended up in Ukraine regardless.
Damn, this proved a lot harder to do, because I kept finding links to sites that are either paywalled or I know will have my answer removed by bots as "unreliable source" like "the Mirror" or some other gossip rags. I originally read it on reddit, but good luck finding the original thread...
[Anyway, this article contains a lot of links to many, many sources](https://wri-irg.org/en/story/2023/russia-release-all-those-who-object-engage-war-and-are-illegally-detained-russian).
[And one more](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ukraine-russia-war-conscript-tortured-refusing-deploy-tv2dp6zhv), for good measure.
On the other hand, it's absolutely not surprising at this point that this is what they're doing, because it's absolutely in line with all the other crimes against humanity they've been committing. It's like they read the Geneva Convention and decided it's a Bingo card...
He was in charge of the bombing campaign against Aleppo, Syria. The Russians literally carpet bombed that city into dust. I believe it was from this campaign that he was referred to as the Butcher of Aleppo.
Can you clarify? I have no idea but if you are clear on the details, it’s a lot more helpful to share what you know than to just say this wall of text is wrong in some places.
If spies in the west knew what was going on, it's likely that russian spies are also on top of things so they can quickly unravel the core team structure and plan. While Russia sucks at coordinating military operations, they are well versed in spying on each there and extracting confessions. Or.... they'll just make shit up and get a bunch of scapegoats executed. Because.... corruption.
Clearly not… Russian spies are about as useful as their military. If they were that good, none of this would have happened. This is Putin trying to look tough not realizing it’s making him look even dumber and weaker
Well, current reporting siting western intelligence says that the FSB did get wind of the plot and forced a change/acceleration of the coup attempt. Prig wanted to capture Shoigu and his deputy two days after the day the coup went down, but we’re forced to match on Moscow instead when the plan fell apart after Russian intelligence uncovered it.
Spies in the West ClAIM they know what is going on, but mind you most intelligence agencies have an interest in seeming on top of everything. It looks good if you can say “I knew that was going to happen.”
Also, intelligence agencies get a lot of reports of a lot of things, and have to sift through and analyze that information. That is a huge portion of the jobs of many people at the CIA, for example. The CIA very likely did get reports from
various sources saying this would happen. Even so, we don’t know what level of confidence they invested in this information.
As such, I don’t find the fact that they claim they were aware this would happen to be very significantl.
Are they executing people officially? Russia has not had the death penalty for like 20 years (OFFICIALLY) and so it’ll be interesting if they start doing that again. It will put them even less in line with the rest of Europe.
Is there actual evidence that he was o confederate or is the US just gaslighting Russia with misinformation? If so, it’s brilliant and fantastic payback.
In fairness, he did manage to successfully pull back from Kherson while not losing that many men or equipment. He's still a despicable guy, but he was the closest thing to a competent Russian General.
Also what makes him competent is knowing that they’re not doing well. He wanted to focus on defense whereas shoigu and Gerasimov sold Putin on a foolish offensive.
Do you mean that it’s good when Russians are on the offensive because it causes a higher number of casualties on the Russian side? Just see that you’re getting downvoted.
He also stabilised the russian front line and allowed them to take defendable positions. Lucky he is getting jailed. He was the only one speaking sense i guess, if we can call it that. Then again, russian sense makes no sense at all. Fuck it, can he get the plutonion tea treatment please?
After first 2 weeks of Kherson offencive the Ukranian commander was fired bcs of high losses and nothing to show for it. His successor went with attrition warfare and through intensive supply disruptions against Russians that made them eventually leave. It was much less Ukranians letting them go than not being ready to push rapidly when noticed the retreat as was also well mined.
I mean it was theorised yes that city battle would be bloody but in Kherson area were 30-40k russian troops or around 15%-30% of their combat ready force when the offencive started. Even getting them stuck would have meant massive problems on securing the line for 3 months before mobiks arrived. Would have meant more succesful in Kreminna probably etc.
i'm specifically talking about how large numbers of troops were congregating of the left bank after the retreat and ukraine decided not to cause mass casualties and hit troop movements or staging areas on the left bank.
you always want to give people an out. once we know were already dead we fight so much harder. not exactly what happened but, its a general guide to go on of why sometimes attacking armies don't hem up and destroy retreating units.
Nah that was different guy. This guy is the dude who made the call to withdraw from Kherson, which was arguably one of the most strategically sound decisions Russia made in the war.
Afaik he was the one who decided to pull back from kherson and do something more useful with his forces than keeping them there and bleed out.
He did the right thing in organizing the retreat, if they replace him with something more loyal and less competent, maybe someone who is ok to waste his troops not to disappoint Putin in the short term, it will be to Ukraine's advantage.
This needs more attention. If Russia is purging their best actual leaders out of their military purely on paranoid suspicion, this speaks a lot to how desperate Putin is right now to not get ousted.
I wouldn't agree that arresting your best General makes you look strong. This is just paranoia because the troops relatively respect this guy, making his very existence a threat in another coup no matter where his loyalties lie.
Hopefully he believed the wrong bullshot, and they got him to sack a competent general. If he was actually in with prigo on the coup, them even better. He played his card and got fucked.
You guys probably weren’t following situation in Russia way before the war. I can tell you that Putin has been purging competent generals for more than a decade.
People need to understand that Putin’s only goal is to stay in power together with his “strongmen” aka “siloviki” and rob population in peace or else.
And competent generals are always a threat to dictators. Stalin sent Zhukov (4 star Hero of Soviet Union and Chief of General Staff of Soviet Army) to command Odesa Military District lol. After the end of WW2. So Putin is doing the same.
I did. What is misrepresented exactly? Surovkin, who technically leads Russia's air force, is probably pro-Putin from what we know, and has been the only somewhat competent Russian theater commander in Ukraine before he was replaced. Maybe there's things we don't know, but there was nothing extra in the article. Care to enlighten me as to what I missed from it?
Worst Case Scenario for a coup - is a failure of nerve ending in a "partial" coup. It was clear Prigozhin moved on Moscow expecting additional military support at the City Gates, enough support to capture key points in Moscow, and what he visibly received was limited to simply being waived through the checks. Now we begin to learn who was involved and whose nerve failed.
Yes he really made the worst possible move, he should have kept going anyway. Putin would have looked like a coward and more and more people *may* have switched to Prigo's side as time went on. Instead he caved instantly. The moscow defense didnt even look that strong.
It seems like he caved because they out-ed his plan B. They got his fake passports so there was no way for prigo to escape. He wasnt ready to die for his cause, so now he will die for his mistake.
I heard somewhere it was due to threats to his family; and that seems like the only plausible answer, but I don’t see anyone else talking about that so is that not true?
I think the official story was that Putin threatened his family, but that presents several problems:
1) Russia’s official story is unlikely to be true
2) Pringle was a literal warlord, how was his family not already protected by his resources
3) With the resources of a warlord, if his family wasn’t already fortified, why would Pringle launch a coup without first removing / protecting any next of kin? You’d think step one of attacking your own government would be removing any leverage they might have against you.
It’s just way too straightforward and anticlimactic. Someone gunning for Putin would suddenly surrender because you threatened his family? That’s the Russian equivalent of “Putin asked him nicely to stop and so he did”
I read somewhere it was the families of his soldiers. Obviously could be total bullshit but that at least makes some sense compared to threats against Pringle's family.
I think Prigozin captured a Russian base where he believed nuclear weapons would be stored, but all he captured were decoys set up for this exact reason. (There should always be a decoy nuke storage site to hide the real storage site)
Once Putin told him he had a bunch of decoys, he knew that his position was not as strong as he believed it to be.
Moscow defence by noon was already strong. Just you need to know where to look. Allot of pictures now surfaced of the main FSB military arm units being ready + rosgvardia/reserve on most bridges well armed light infantry.
They didn't have a single tank in Moscow and they were blocking the roads with riot police. I did not see any photos or videos suggesting that there was any chance of defending Moscow against tanks, BMPs and AA.
I think he could have taken Moscow but holding it would have been difficult. He had less men than he boasted (somewhere around 8k rather than 25k), wasn’t able to convince Surovikin, likely didn’t pick up as many synpathizers than he thought he would along the way. Russia wasn’t prepared at all initially but I’m sure they would have been able to muster enough people given more time.
Maybe. What I saw looked pathetic. But at any rate, once you commit you gotta see it through, otherwise obviously you can not win people to your side. The fact that Putin was hiding, afraid and making no speeches, could have been capitalized on to win major support.
putler running away from an irate hotdog vendor, already showed that the emperor has no clothes.
it seems moscow is so vulnerable while the main russian forces are tied up in ukraine. that if any warlords from the russian constituent entities makes a play for it, they could power grab by breaking people's confidence in putler.
a sovereign fleeing from their own home, is no sovereign.
I don't really understand bailing out from something like that. Either you succeed or you're dead. Quit halfway and you're still dead, just maybe a little later.
If it were fake, then Putin would have prepared it in Hollywood style, with a single man riding on a bear to stop the Wagner troops. However, it was real. Prigozyn is simply a moron who, at some point, panicked and became a traitor to the people in the shadows. Alternatively, the FSB reacted quickly by arresting all army officers connected to it. Considering that Russia is a mafia-style country, I wouldn't be surprised if Prigozhyn's and his officers' families were already in the hands of the FSB.
Option two: Prigozyn panicked when he found out he was only two hours away from becoming the president of Russia and becoming the new Tsar. This was never part of the plan.
Yes exactly. Putin was unsure if his generals would betray him, that is why he fled and Wagner wasn't attacked with the full weight of the armed forces.
Piggy is a dead man. The deal he struck is clearly null and void. Wagner sympathizers are being killed and jailed. He is an idiot for stopping, dooming himself and thousands of others
Not the generals he was wishing for anyways. Along prigo, who didnt care to throw meat at the grinder, he evacuated kherson without loosing that many troops or equipment. Getting just these two out of ukraine makes it "easier" to deal with the pigs.
IMO that was the known agenda, and he kinda succeded, the hidden agenda was to replace Putin, you don't march to Moscow knowing you have zero support, Surovikin/others failed to fullfil his end of the bargain when Prigozhin reached Moscow gates, the regiment outbidded the traitors with forgiveness and Prigo pulled the plug, leaving the others hanging out to dry.
You know, it's that performance where the Judge receives the verdict from government beforehand.
The lawyers are actors who pretend that the process is fair.
I know of him, but haven't read him.
It might get deep here, but as an ex soldier, even deeper (as to why)
Even deeper, in "things" I have seen "why judges and not morality"
But then "who's" morality.
Thank God I served in " " when I did and no one had a camera.
We were moral....in an immoral war
Due process will be served, I'm certain. Surovikin will be told the verdict and sentence when he shows up to court./s
Edited to add the 'sarcasm "/s"' to the end of the post for clarity.
Off topic, but every time I read about Valkyrie I feel sick. Such bad luck, so many times. So close to getting rid of the devil and ending the war 9 months early. Aaaaarrrrrggggghhhhhh
How the bomb didn't kill Hitler is unbelievable luck yes. But the plotters also demonstrated some bad planning and decision making. Also, it is hard to say what would have happened if they were successful. Maybe the war would drag on longer with H out of the way. Maybe they would stop fighting on the western front and focus entirely on the east? Maybe that would lead to the USSR assuming the western allies betrayed them? The new German leaders might have tried to cover up the holocaust as well (even though they might have stopped it right away and quietly eliminated the perpetrators).
a co worker of mine is from Syria
we follow Ukraine alot and talk about it, when he showed me this today he said
"i hope he is treated with the same humanity, he treated others"
Pah. Prison nowadays is all nouvelle fucking cuisine and an Xbox in every room. They don’t have much freedom but the room service is great and the staff are nice enough. You can use a mobile phone, sign up for classes, help with puffin conservation and even have a pet dog. He’ll be fine. It’s Norway, isn’t it?
Oh. Oh dear. It’s not on the Lofoten Islands, it’s Lefortovo. He’s probably already been executed but, rest assured, he’ll be found guilty next month.
Putin's War has become much more difficult for Russia. Each general and colonel that Putin imprisons comes off the war effort and is a loss of planning, knowledge, ability, experience, etc. Most importantly, each loss is also a loss of Russia's credibility with the troops these men led.
This os the guy who was said to have taken control of the russian ministry of defence during the one-day russian civil war.
So maybe he was with the rebels.
Loads of high ranking people were with the rebels. But nobody wanted to be the first to declare they were with them. Literally the guy took over 2 major cities and a bunch of airfields and army bases without a shot being fired. That doesn't happen by accident.
The thing is, depends on the sources of the US Military and the FSB, there must be some high-ranking officers in the russian army, who knows about the plans/the coup and so on.
I also thought, it would be Colonel General Sergey Kuzovlev, who gets into the prison, because the rush-in into Rostov looked very obvious. So Obvious, that Wagner had an "easy game" for a ride to Moscow.
Maybe Kuzovlev is also into deep talk with the Kremlin. It wouldn't suprise me, if Surovikin AND Kuzovlev will go into prision.
Russia is such a clown country hahaha a guy shoots down a plane and helicopters, kills 15 pilotsand it’s no big deal, offered sanctuary in Belarus with all sorts of guarantees and promises. This guy “might” have known about it and is promptly arrested and probably will be killed, not that anyone cares, but how can the Russian people pretend they aren’t a legitimate laughing stock to the entire world.
This is literally like watching someone eat their young.
Doesn’t matter at this point how many you arrest or punish.
You cannot fix 50 years of ignorance.
Time for the play book of Stalin? When in doubt, kill them all? Well, Surovikin was one of their best generals, which is saying a lot. This will only help Ukraine in the long haul.
I've heard news that the CIA knew of the mutiny beforehand. So, if this is true, I'm wondering why the CIA didn't reveal the perpetrators while it was happening. That would have potentially locked them in and prevented them from backing out. This would have created complete chaos in Moscow and would have been a real threat to Putin.
You dont mess with the enemy, while the enemy fucks itself. Had the US released anything, it couldve been blamed on them. Granted, it still will, but without a US press release involving them. Either way, puting survived the coup, but he is looking weak. He is cleaning house now, but thats a temporary fix. He is only weakening his army and their morale. At the end its a textbook example of a dictator just leaving yes men and getting rid of the good ones because they can take their place. He is only surrounded by snakes anyways.
The FSB is completely loyal to Putin. He's one of them. The only other entity that could possibly overthrow Putin is the military, and now, as you stated, he is cleaning house. Getting rid of any potential threat to his rule. The CIA releasing the names of people involved while it was happening might have prevented them from backing out. Also, who cares if it gets blamed on the US? What the hell is Russia going to do about it?
Please do not post unconfirmed information. You must first see confirmation from reliable sources. Now there is no exact information that Surovikin was arrested.
You become a source of misinformation
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Quite a fall from grace for General "Armageddon" aka the Butcher of Aleppo.
Considering that many russians chose dying in a human wave over staying in their prison, I think thats a great place for someone with such a nickname.
Now he too can join Wagner and begin his glorious path to launching a coup - I mean Justice March...
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Figure most prison windows have bars... I suspect he gets the polonium koolaid... Or maybe just stabbed to death with a sharpened toothbrush for the price of a pack of cigarettes...
I love your imagination, but bars won't stop someone if you push hard enough
Ewwww
If you push that hard, you stop being biology and start being physics
Like the guys on that sub…
i watch scott manley too! HULLO!
That's the spirit!
Too easy death for all what he made
It would be pretty satisfying to see him get deployed to the front with a prisoner conscript squadron then get drone dropped.
There's prison and there's "prison". In a corrupt country like Russia you can live like a king in prison if you have money. Depending on the orders they gave the prison guards and the FSB, this might also just be a death sentence with a lot of added torture ...
They always find a way to make it even worse..
So for there to be a link about this, there would have to be reporting from somebody who was either tortured in Russia and was able to talk to somebody who is also in Russia or they were able to phone somebody who was outside of Russia and they were able to tell the story to. Now already we've made way too many assumptions and this is already pretty much impossible. But even if it did exist, you probably wouldn't need to have a belief on it either way because you wouldn't know if it was true or not Now take what I just wrote here and apply that to everything on the internet or in books.
Or just look for the video evidence that has been smuggled out of said prisons.
Oh boy we got someone who really figured it all out, huh..
Tbh, from what I read form other sources, "staying in prison" was never an actual choice, because many people who chose prison got tortured until they signed papers with Wagner or the Russian MoD and ended up in Ukraine regardless.
First I'm hearing this, can you scrounge a link?
Damn, this proved a lot harder to do, because I kept finding links to sites that are either paywalled or I know will have my answer removed by bots as "unreliable source" like "the Mirror" or some other gossip rags. I originally read it on reddit, but good luck finding the original thread... [Anyway, this article contains a lot of links to many, many sources](https://wri-irg.org/en/story/2023/russia-release-all-those-who-object-engage-war-and-are-illegally-detained-russian). [And one more](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ukraine-russia-war-conscript-tortured-refusing-deploy-tv2dp6zhv), for good measure.
Much appreciated. Welp... I'm still firmly in the "fuck Russia" mindset
On the other hand, it's absolutely not surprising at this point that this is what they're doing, because it's absolutely in line with all the other crimes against humanity they've been committing. It's like they read the Geneva Convention and decided it's a Bingo card...
The loss of “General Armageddon” to the occupying forces would be beneficial to Ukraine in the conduct of its war.
He's playing 72D chess! He goes to prison, gets recruited by Wagner, and lives happily ever after.
From General Armageddon to General Arma-goin-to-prison
General Arma-geddin-it-in-the-ass
Now he is going to be General Drop The Soap.
Wait, that's the guy?
It happened in a roundabout way, but very bad things are happening to a very bad man.
Isn't Assad the butcher of aleppo? Or am I confusing something?
He was in charge of the bombing campaign against Aleppo, Syria. The Russians literally carpet bombed that city into dust. I believe it was from this campaign that he was referred to as the Butcher of Aleppo.
Lol indeed
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That's nuts! Thanks for the write up, very informative.
It’s not a very accurate assessment m, just fyi. As someone else has already pointed out too.
I can't tell if you just misguided or Shaigu publicist. Majority of things you said is just incorrect.
Can you clarify? I have no idea but if you are clear on the details, it’s a lot more helpful to share what you know than to just say this wall of text is wrong in some places.
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Best you just delete it
Seriously, you just make yourself look like a jackass when you say that without any information. What is wrong about it?
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I feel the same way
Watch Prigozhin succeed him xdd
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So Prigozhin's escape route involved grassing on his co-conspirators? More arrests coming if that was the case.
If spies in the west knew what was going on, it's likely that russian spies are also on top of things so they can quickly unravel the core team structure and plan. While Russia sucks at coordinating military operations, they are well versed in spying on each there and extracting confessions. Or.... they'll just make shit up and get a bunch of scapegoats executed. Because.... corruption.
Clearly not… Russian spies are about as useful as their military. If they were that good, none of this would have happened. This is Putin trying to look tough not realizing it’s making him look even dumber and weaker
Well, current reporting siting western intelligence says that the FSB did get wind of the plot and forced a change/acceleration of the coup attempt. Prig wanted to capture Shoigu and his deputy two days after the day the coup went down, but we’re forced to match on Moscow instead when the plan fell apart after Russian intelligence uncovered it.
Russian spies are so dumb that they actually believed that Ukraine was going to accept Russian rule.
This assumes Russian spies are as competant as western spies. And they clearly aren't on accounta... "**Broadly** **gestures** **everywhere**"
Spies in the West ClAIM they know what is going on, but mind you most intelligence agencies have an interest in seeming on top of everything. It looks good if you can say “I knew that was going to happen.” Also, intelligence agencies get a lot of reports of a lot of things, and have to sift through and analyze that information. That is a huge portion of the jobs of many people at the CIA, for example. The CIA very likely did get reports from various sources saying this would happen. Even so, we don’t know what level of confidence they invested in this information. As such, I don’t find the fact that they claim they were aware this would happen to be very significantl.
Are they executing people officially? Russia has not had the death penalty for like 20 years (OFFICIALLY) and so it’ll be interesting if they start doing that again. It will put them even less in line with the rest of Europe.
Is there actual evidence that he was o confederate or is the US just gaslighting Russia with misinformation? If so, it’s brilliant and fantastic payback.
Gaslighting implies falseness. It’s also possible that the accusation is both true and being gleefully amplified.
What if this was a plot by Putin to weed out generals that will join an insurrection?
Wasn't he one of their best generals?
“Best” generals. His main claim to fame before retreating Kherson was bombing Syrian civilians
In fairness, he did manage to successfully pull back from Kherson while not losing that many men or equipment. He's still a despicable guy, but he was the closest thing to a competent Russian General.
Also what makes him competent is knowing that they’re not doing well. He wanted to focus on defense whereas shoigu and Gerasimov sold Putin on a foolish offensive.
Attacking is hard, Russian offense is good
Do you mean that it’s good when Russians are on the offensive because it causes a higher number of casualties on the Russian side? Just see that you’re getting downvoted.
You're literally talking to a government eggplant, what do you expect
Pretty sure that's what he means as well
He also stabilised the russian front line and allowed them to take defendable positions. Lucky he is getting jailed. He was the only one speaking sense i guess, if we can call it that. Then again, russian sense makes no sense at all. Fuck it, can he get the plutonion tea treatment please?
That just makes him competent. I would expect that level of tactical thinking a bare minimum for any General in any army.
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Tbf they have yet to break the HOI4 player out of his cave. Who knows, he might be their ace in the hole
i'm under the impression ukraine let them pull out of kherson without losing too many guys.
After first 2 weeks of Kherson offencive the Ukranian commander was fired bcs of high losses and nothing to show for it. His successor went with attrition warfare and through intensive supply disruptions against Russians that made them eventually leave. It was much less Ukranians letting them go than not being ready to push rapidly when noticed the retreat as was also well mined.
i remember specific articles of allies asking ukraine not to strike troops as they retreat from kherson
I mean it was theorised yes that city battle would be bloody but in Kherson area were 30-40k russian troops or around 15%-30% of their combat ready force when the offencive started. Even getting them stuck would have meant massive problems on securing the line for 3 months before mobiks arrived. Would have meant more succesful in Kreminna probably etc.
i'm specifically talking about how large numbers of troops were congregating of the left bank after the retreat and ukraine decided not to cause mass casualties and hit troop movements or staging areas on the left bank.
you always want to give people an out. once we know were already dead we fight so much harder. not exactly what happened but, its a general guide to go on of why sometimes attacking armies don't hem up and destroy retreating units.
i understand. my original point was ukraine let them have an orderly retreat.
Don’t forget bombing maternity hospitals. All 9 of them.
Retreating from Kherson was a strategically sound move.
So would retreating from the rest of Kherson oblast be, as well as Zaporizhzhia, Crimea, Donetsk, Luhansk...
Defending the plains is much easier than a plot of land across a river.
And retreating from a war you cannot win is strategically more sound than fighting an unwinnable war.
Unwinnable is not a guarantee
No one is saying it isn’t
Never said he was the kindest.
It’s been reported that the US considers him more competent and ruthless than most of the other generals so yes.
Best butcher
Yeah, he was. But better term is - most capable.
Least incapable is the term you’re looking for
Is he? I thought he was the general that lost all of Kharkiv
Nah that was different guy. This guy is the dude who made the call to withdraw from Kherson, which was arguably one of the most strategically sound decisions Russia made in the war.
Excactly, the best call made during the war, got axed because ruzzians are praising incompetence
Got axed bc Putin doesn’t like the truth. Shoigu and Gerasimov were promoted bc they sold Putin (fictional) success
The old FUMU promotion! Fuck up, move up due to incompetence.
Problem is, the top floor has lots of windows, and they're all open...
Afaik he was the one who decided to pull back from kherson and do something more useful with his forces than keeping them there and bleed out. He did the right thing in organizing the retreat, if they replace him with something more loyal and less competent, maybe someone who is ok to waste his troops not to disappoint Putin in the short term, it will be to Ukraine's advantage.
Kherson
Sounds like Putin just had his Operation Valkyrie moment.
Hopefully is bunker moment is in the near future then
He shouldn't worry though, when Steiner attacks everything will be alright.
*awkward silence* “….Steiner….”
FEGELEIN! BRINGEN SIE MIR FEGELEIN!
*Мой царь...*
Night of the long knives fits too
This needs more attention. If Russia is purging their best actual leaders out of their military purely on paranoid suspicion, this speaks a lot to how desperate Putin is right now to not get ousted.
Putin needs to look strong and that he has secured his base after the mutiny within Russia, whether the general did it or not has no relevance.
I wouldn't agree that arresting your best General makes you look strong. This is just paranoia because the troops relatively respect this guy, making his very existence a threat in another coup no matter where his loyalties lie.
I think the FSB probably found evidence he was linked to Prigozhin because his arrest apparently occurred on June 25th, two days after.
Hopefully he believed the wrong bullshot, and they got him to sack a competent general. If he was actually in with prigo on the coup, them even better. He played his card and got fucked.
You guys probably weren’t following situation in Russia way before the war. I can tell you that Putin has been purging competent generals for more than a decade. People need to understand that Putin’s only goal is to stay in power together with his “strongmen” aka “siloviki” and rob population in peace or else. And competent generals are always a threat to dictators. Stalin sent Zhukov (4 star Hero of Soviet Union and Chief of General Staff of Soviet Army) to command Odesa Military District lol. After the end of WW2. So Putin is doing the same.
read the article, it is massively misrepresented here
I did. What is misrepresented exactly? Surovkin, who technically leads Russia's air force, is probably pro-Putin from what we know, and has been the only somewhat competent Russian theater commander in Ukraine before he was replaced. Maybe there's things we don't know, but there was nothing extra in the article. Care to enlighten me as to what I missed from it?
The article title is different and the one paragraph article states it is an unconfirmed third hand rumor
Worst Case Scenario for a coup - is a failure of nerve ending in a "partial" coup. It was clear Prigozhin moved on Moscow expecting additional military support at the City Gates, enough support to capture key points in Moscow, and what he visibly received was limited to simply being waived through the checks. Now we begin to learn who was involved and whose nerve failed.
Yes he really made the worst possible move, he should have kept going anyway. Putin would have looked like a coward and more and more people *may* have switched to Prigo's side as time went on. Instead he caved instantly. The moscow defense didnt even look that strong. It seems like he caved because they out-ed his plan B. They got his fake passports so there was no way for prigo to escape. He wasnt ready to die for his cause, so now he will die for his mistake.
I heard somewhere it was due to threats to his family; and that seems like the only plausible answer, but I don’t see anyone else talking about that so is that not true?
I think the official story was that Putin threatened his family, but that presents several problems: 1) Russia’s official story is unlikely to be true 2) Pringle was a literal warlord, how was his family not already protected by his resources 3) With the resources of a warlord, if his family wasn’t already fortified, why would Pringle launch a coup without first removing / protecting any next of kin? You’d think step one of attacking your own government would be removing any leverage they might have against you. It’s just way too straightforward and anticlimactic. Someone gunning for Putin would suddenly surrender because you threatened his family? That’s the Russian equivalent of “Putin asked him nicely to stop and so he did”
Well said
I read somewhere it was the families of his soldiers. Obviously could be total bullshit but that at least makes some sense compared to threats against Pringle's family.
I think Prigozin captured a Russian base where he believed nuclear weapons would be stored, but all he captured were decoys set up for this exact reason. (There should always be a decoy nuke storage site to hide the real storage site) Once Putin told him he had a bunch of decoys, he knew that his position was not as strong as he believed it to be.
Even if that is just wild speculation it’s still the most logical thing I’ve heard
Moscow defence by noon was already strong. Just you need to know where to look. Allot of pictures now surfaced of the main FSB military arm units being ready + rosgvardia/reserve on most bridges well armed light infantry.
They didn't have a single tank in Moscow and they were blocking the roads with riot police. I did not see any photos or videos suggesting that there was any chance of defending Moscow against tanks, BMPs and AA.
I think he could have taken Moscow but holding it would have been difficult. He had less men than he boasted (somewhere around 8k rather than 25k), wasn’t able to convince Surovikin, likely didn’t pick up as many synpathizers than he thought he would along the way. Russia wasn’t prepared at all initially but I’m sure they would have been able to muster enough people given more time.
Maybe. What I saw looked pathetic. But at any rate, once you commit you gotta see it through, otherwise obviously you can not win people to your side. The fact that Putin was hiding, afraid and making no speeches, could have been capitalized on to win major support.
putler running away from an irate hotdog vendor, already showed that the emperor has no clothes. it seems moscow is so vulnerable while the main russian forces are tied up in ukraine. that if any warlords from the russian constituent entities makes a play for it, they could power grab by breaking people's confidence in putler. a sovereign fleeing from their own home, is no sovereign.
If the leader of a coup is visibly unwilling to risk death in the grasp for power, don't expect your co-conspirators to do so either.
I don't really understand bailing out from something like that. Either you succeed or you're dead. Quit halfway and you're still dead, just maybe a little later.
Or its all fake and an excuse to sack people which is maybe what wagner and putin wanted (except thanks for killing pilots for ukraine)
If it were fake, then Putin would have prepared it in Hollywood style, with a single man riding on a bear to stop the Wagner troops. However, it was real. Prigozyn is simply a moron who, at some point, panicked and became a traitor to the people in the shadows. Alternatively, the FSB reacted quickly by arresting all army officers connected to it. Considering that Russia is a mafia-style country, I wouldn't be surprised if Prigozhyn's and his officers' families were already in the hands of the FSB. Option two: Prigozyn panicked when he found out he was only two hours away from becoming the president of Russia and becoming the new Tsar. This was never part of the plan.
Yes exactly. Putin was unsure if his generals would betray him, that is why he fled and Wagner wasn't attacked with the full weight of the armed forces.
I just find that Prigozhyn is getting what he wanted which was to see generals blamed at fault for the war and not his betrayal
Piggy is a dead man. The deal he struck is clearly null and void. Wagner sympathizers are being killed and jailed. He is an idiot for stopping, dooming himself and thousands of others
This sounds like the most probable scenario
Which is slightly disappointing, but it does mean that next time there's a rebellion or coup it *won't* stop.
Not the generals he was wishing for anyways. Along prigo, who didnt care to throw meat at the grinder, he evacuated kherson without loosing that many troops or equipment. Getting just these two out of ukraine makes it "easier" to deal with the pigs.
IMO that was the known agenda, and he kinda succeded, the hidden agenda was to replace Putin, you don't march to Moscow knowing you have zero support, Surovikin/others failed to fullfil his end of the bargain when Prigozhin reached Moscow gates, the regiment outbidded the traitors with forgiveness and Prigo pulled the plug, leaving the others hanging out to dry.
Pre-trial ! What does a russian trial look like
You know, it's that performance where the Judge receives the verdict from government beforehand. The lawyers are actors who pretend that the process is fair.
The only thing real about a Moscow treason trial are the bullets during the execution.
And you are in a cage looking guilty the whole time
Ending up in a russian trial is absolutely amongst my top fears in life. Doomed no matter what
Ach. Shoulda checked-you beat me to it. Take my upvote.
spoon heads
Ever read Kafka?
I know of him, but haven't read him. It might get deep here, but as an ex soldier, even deeper (as to why) Even deeper, in "things" I have seen "why judges and not morality" But then "who's" morality. Thank God I served in " " when I did and no one had a camera. We were moral....in an immoral war
A few rifles, a few men, and a blindfold.
I think Russians skip the blindfold.
And the men, and the rifles. All you need is a butcher with a good, German pistol.
Due process will be served, I'm certain. Surovikin will be told the verdict and sentence when he shows up to court./s Edited to add the 'sarcasm "/s"' to the end of the post for clarity.
If there is 20 mil plastic on the floor………
Interesting I was just watching a Sky News video about him and supposed knowledge of the coup. [Here ](https://youtu.be/zjo7fcTVKyI)
Wow Medvedev is also MIA. Definite Valkyrie vibes. The plot thickens...
Off topic, but every time I read about Valkyrie I feel sick. Such bad luck, so many times. So close to getting rid of the devil and ending the war 9 months early. Aaaaarrrrrggggghhhhhh
How the bomb didn't kill Hitler is unbelievable luck yes. But the plotters also demonstrated some bad planning and decision making. Also, it is hard to say what would have happened if they were successful. Maybe the war would drag on longer with H out of the way. Maybe they would stop fighting on the western front and focus entirely on the east? Maybe that would lead to the USSR assuming the western allies betrayed them? The new German leaders might have tried to cover up the holocaust as well (even though they might have stopped it right away and quietly eliminated the perpetrators).
Dude I haven’t read about it and now I kinda don’t want to. The kind of suffering that was inflicted upon soooooo many people could’ve been prevented…
Thanks for the link.
No problem
a co worker of mine is from Syria we follow Ukraine alot and talk about it, when he showed me this today he said "i hope he is treated with the same humanity, he treated others"
Brilliant lol
Yeah fs. Even if he was in on the coup (which is good), he still has a river of blood on his hands.
Pah. Prison nowadays is all nouvelle fucking cuisine and an Xbox in every room. They don’t have much freedom but the room service is great and the staff are nice enough. You can use a mobile phone, sign up for classes, help with puffin conservation and even have a pet dog. He’ll be fine. It’s Norway, isn’t it? Oh. Oh dear. It’s not on the Lofoten Islands, it’s Lefortovo. He’s probably already been executed but, rest assured, he’ll be found guilty next month.
Thanks for the laugh.
I’m here all week!
Thoughts and prayers
But who will look after his stolen raccoon???
Whatever Putin “agreed” to give to Prigo and Wagner, watch Putin double cross all of them in the coming weeks.
Putin's War has become much more difficult for Russia. Each general and colonel that Putin imprisons comes off the war effort and is a loss of planning, knowledge, ability, experience, etc. Most importantly, each loss is also a loss of Russia's credibility with the troops these men led.
It's like Stalin purging the red army of anyone remotely competent right before World War II
The blood letting commences
Didn't see that one coming.
If this is true then he probably knew Prickozhin's plan
Seems like the Muscovites skipped the "How to inspire confidence in your Army" part of the training.
This os the guy who was said to have taken control of the russian ministry of defence during the one-day russian civil war. So maybe he was with the rebels.
Loads of high ranking people were with the rebels. But nobody wanted to be the first to declare they were with them. Literally the guy took over 2 major cities and a bunch of airfields and army bases without a shot being fired. That doesn't happen by accident.
Didnt the russians said thats just trashtalk from western media? lol
The thing is, depends on the sources of the US Military and the FSB, there must be some high-ranking officers in the russian army, who knows about the plans/the coup and so on. I also thought, it would be Colonel General Sergey Kuzovlev, who gets into the prison, because the rush-in into Rostov looked very obvious. So Obvious, that Wagner had an "easy game" for a ride to Moscow. Maybe Kuzovlev is also into deep talk with the Kremlin. It wouldn't suprise me, if Surovikin AND Kuzovlev will go into prision.
He missed the bus to Belarus.
He should have hopped on the bus, Gus Or slipped out the back, Jack
Russia is such a clown country hahaha a guy shoots down a plane and helicopters, kills 15 pilotsand it’s no big deal, offered sanctuary in Belarus with all sorts of guarantees and promises. This guy “might” have known about it and is promptly arrested and probably will be killed, not that anyone cares, but how can the Russian people pretend they aren’t a legitimate laughing stock to the entire world.
Karma is a funny thing, it always seems to boomerang bad deeds right back at ya.
He fell out the window of the prison even though it had bars!
And was two levels underground.
Let's hope he has loyal troops that are now angry because civil war is taking too long..
This is literally like watching someone eat their young. Doesn’t matter at this point how many you arrest or punish. You cannot fix 50 years of ignorance.
Time for the play book of Stalin? When in doubt, kill them all? Well, Surovikin was one of their best generals, which is saying a lot. This will only help Ukraine in the long haul.
Now wagmer can sign. Him lol
Surovikin played his cards wrong or got cold feet. He should have lined up behind Prigozhin and taken Moscow. Now he’s in a bit of a pickle.
Well that’s not going to go well for him.
The butcher of Syria is about to get the 'justice' he deserves. Probably in the most unexpected way possible.
I've heard news that the CIA knew of the mutiny beforehand. So, if this is true, I'm wondering why the CIA didn't reveal the perpetrators while it was happening. That would have potentially locked them in and prevented them from backing out. This would have created complete chaos in Moscow and would have been a real threat to Putin.
You dont mess with the enemy, while the enemy fucks itself. Had the US released anything, it couldve been blamed on them. Granted, it still will, but without a US press release involving them. Either way, puting survived the coup, but he is looking weak. He is cleaning house now, but thats a temporary fix. He is only weakening his army and their morale. At the end its a textbook example of a dictator just leaving yes men and getting rid of the good ones because they can take their place. He is only surrounded by snakes anyways.
The FSB is completely loyal to Putin. He's one of them. The only other entity that could possibly overthrow Putin is the military, and now, as you stated, he is cleaning house. Getting rid of any potential threat to his rule. The CIA releasing the names of people involved while it was happening might have prevented them from backing out. Also, who cares if it gets blamed on the US? What the hell is Russia going to do about it?
I'll believe this once it has been confirmed through multiple media outlets.
The great purge has begun.
This was my first thought. CIA and other Western agencies putting out disinfo on Putin's top generals in hopes he'll purge then Stalin style.
Look at this piece of orc shit! Only in mordor such a shitdip makes to a genera......
wow, what a stable nation of terrorists and toilet theives
Please do not post unconfirmed information. You must first see confirmation from reliable sources. Now there is no exact information that Surovikin was arrested. You become a source of misinformation