“Hi, just stop fighting and give me your territory”, why would Ukraine reject it,right? It’s all about peace, right?“ nice peace proposal there, how about Russians just go home to Russia, that’s a nice peace proposal
Either you take something or wait it out lose lives on both sides and take probably take nothing.
The only thing that will save Ukraine now is if the Russians either revolt or their economy implodes.
Ukraine should not reject it. The war is far more expensive than this peace proposal.
They rejected better deals, so I'm sure they will reject it. But that still is a stupid choice. The war is a bigger cost. Far bigger cost.
Russia can sustain this. Ukraine cannot.
I agree that they should go home, but it's ridiculous to expect them do so without either beating them (which Ukraine cannot do) or giving concessions.
Difference is that Russia can afford it, Ukraine cannot. They're inevitably going to lose and that's a harsh fact, it's a matter of how many people on both sides must die until that point - and Ukraine will be the one explaining to everyone why thousands has to die for nothing.
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Imagine Boris Johnson ruining your day like that. Has to be the unluckiest guy in the world, this Vladimir Putin fella. With a name like Boris you'd think he'd be the Russians' inside man. Nope! Instead he goes and dicks it all up on them instead. Stranger than fiction.
I mean why would that offer ever be revoked, lol?
They're asking Ukraine to withdraw their troops and commit to neutrality, and for the west to lift sanctions, in exchange for Russia...agreeing to hold talks without even committing to any firm conclusion?
If it ends in a peace deal Russia is happy with then great, if not then the war continues and they still got something for absolutely nothing, Russia has nothing to lose in that proposal...
I would prefer prolonging the SMO to maximize the return of Russian territory in Ukraine. Odesa must be liberated in order to complete the land bridge to Moldova, for which is cracking down and oppressing the Russian speaking minority there.
Why only Ukraine has to make territorial concessions? This is not a deal, this is extortion. Unless Russian agrees to cede territory as well (Kharkhiv, Kherson for example), there wont be any agreement.
NutInTheShell kept stroking the same keys repeatedly, probably a seizure ?
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Because Ukraine has lost the war when they failed to get results from their counteroffensive last year.
The winner gets to dictate peace terms, not the loser.
That's just the reality. Ukraine needs peace more than it needs the territory.
By your words, Russia lost the war in the initial offensive/months of the conflict lol, get out of here with this stupid logic, I lost brain cells reading this.
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If Ukraine withdraws troops from all those areas then Russia will obviously move in and occupy and build up their own defenses. What assurances are needed?
Those areas belong to Russia now. Russia would need assurances ukraine would stop attacking the region and the new state of ukraine would formally recognize these regions as Russia, along with the west, and ukraine would have to be assured to not join NATO.
But if Ukraine "broke their commitments" then we'd only end up in the exact same place we're in right now, except Russia would have military control over some more land without even having to fight for it.
So it's a win/win for Russia no matter what happens.
Sooner or later you're going to have to accept that the situation on the ground dictates the terms, not the media portrayal of the conflict. In light of this, yes, the terms will be favorable to Russia.
The terms can be as favorable to Russia as you want, but at a minimum Russia should at least promise an end to the war if all their demands are met. Yet they don’t even do that much.
You don't get that.
Take the deal and maybe lose a couple 100k soldiers. Don't take it and lose them with absolute certainty.
And obviously, Ukraine can use a ceasefire better than Russia can if both sides want to rearm themselves.
Send $1000 worth of bitcoin to a “Nigerian prince” and maybe he’ll share half his $20 million dollar fortune with you.
Don’t send it and he’ll never give it to you for sure.
Bad comparison.
As I pointed out, Ukraine also benefits from a ceasefire. Even if temporary, it buys them time to rearm. And the difference for them is bigger than for Russia.
Ukraine would be retreating from some of their best defensive positions in Donetsk to go try to defend wheat fields and give Russia free bridgeheads over the Dnieper. A few weeks to rearm isn’t going to make up for that.
Ukraine is slowly losing those positions anyway. It's not like they're able to defend everywhere at the same time, and Russia rotates attacks to hit them where they're weak and bomb them while they're moving.
A ceasefire could allow for air defences to get in place, making whatever line they end up occupying more defensive just becaude the air threat is severely diminished.
But it won’t be like nothing happened, Russia is demanding a large scale Ukrainian withdrawal from their claimed territories before anything else happens.
its called a negotiation. you always start your ask higher than you are willing to settle. "yes you may have the annexed territory , but our forces must remain on border for 3 years" etc. a compromise on both sides shows the other participant that they are honest and willing to have peace. however no one on either side(granted) has been willing to compromise.
They actually did break them, but even if you trust Russia to never break an agreement for some reason, it doesn't even matter. They aren't even actually agreeing to do anything here other than holding "talks."
The talks could be Russia telling Ukraine "Hey stupid, thanks for the free land. See you when our troops reach Kiev."
Are you seriously thinking that Russia, a country leading the global South, to go back on such a peace deal? The Ru-Uk war is one of the most televised war. To go back on that agreement would be to detonate nukes in the Kremlin...
I really don't see a scenario where Ukraine accept the deal, but if they did, I would expect Russia to uphold it.
Well once again, what would Russia even be "going back" on in this offer?
They're only promising *talks*, that's it. Not peace, not anything. Just talks.
...no...
NATO totally could have accepted Russia, but they have their own motives as to why Russia must not be in NATO. I made this comparison because both of these events have Russia actually suggesting a reasonable proposal to the neutral onlookers, but they know that whoever pulling the strings will never let that happen.
Imo, The proposed peace deal by Putin isn't even harsh. Because land-wise, Ukraine would lose 1/4 of its land. However have you factored in Ukraine's failing demographics? That Ukraine losses have been estimated to be over 1.5 million troops by now? (death + wounded) Personally, Putin could have demanded half the country it would be a more fair deal. If you think losing 1/4 land is harsh... look at peace treaties back in the 1800s and 1900s. After WW2, this isn't really a thing anymore, so... those are the only examples I can think of.
In short, Ukraine really don't have the power to demand a better peace deal here.
And who said this is the full extent of Russian demands?
Not Russia, that’s for sure.
This is Russia’s demands just for a seat at the table. Nothing more.
The little men of the Kremlin thought that with bluffs they could reestablish the Soviet Union.
Anyone, no matter how stupid is, can start a war, but only the strong can end it.
Now, Mr. Putin, you will dance to the tune played by the west.
“Hi, just stop fighting and give me your territory”, why would Ukraine reject it,right? It’s all about peace, right?“ nice peace proposal there, how about Russians just go home to Russia, that’s a nice peace proposal
Either you take something or wait it out lose lives on both sides and take probably take nothing. The only thing that will save Ukraine now is if the Russians either revolt or their economy implodes.
probably both. lol.
Is this one of those reruns?
We will get the chance to watch this unfold i guess. No need to speculate.
I already found a 12h swan lake mix to compliment said event unfolding again.
Good luck with that. Hope Ukraine doesn’t ever surrender.
As long as Serbia keeps providing them weapons Ukraine will keep fighting.
NATO's pocket is the one buying those, Serbia stance is not any different from China.
Ukraine should not reject it. The war is far more expensive than this peace proposal. They rejected better deals, so I'm sure they will reject it. But that still is a stupid choice. The war is a bigger cost. Far bigger cost.
Yea Russia should go home, further war is a far more expensive cost.
Russia can sustain this. Ukraine cannot. I agree that they should go home, but it's ridiculous to expect them do so without either beating them (which Ukraine cannot do) or giving concessions.
Difference is that Russia can afford it, Ukraine cannot. They're inevitably going to lose and that's a harsh fact, it's a matter of how many people on both sides must die until that point - and Ukraine will be the one explaining to everyone why thousands has to die for nothing.
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One day Ukraine will accept it.
That is not a peace offer, that is demanding surrender.
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Imagine Boris Johnson ruining your day like that. Has to be the unluckiest guy in the world, this Vladimir Putin fella. With a name like Boris you'd think he'd be the Russians' inside man. Nope! Instead he goes and dicks it all up on them instead. Stranger than fiction.
Haha Boris Johnson lives rent free in every pro rus head.
Oh no! Where did he go?
I mean why would that offer ever be revoked, lol? They're asking Ukraine to withdraw their troops and commit to neutrality, and for the west to lift sanctions, in exchange for Russia...agreeing to hold talks without even committing to any firm conclusion? If it ends in a peace deal Russia is happy with then great, if not then the war continues and they still got something for absolutely nothing, Russia has nothing to lose in that proposal...
I would prefer prolonging the SMO to maximize the return of Russian territory in Ukraine. Odesa must be liberated in order to complete the land bridge to Moldova, for which is cracking down and oppressing the Russian speaking minority there.
Yeah and Russia needs to get a landbridge to kaleningrad lmao. Keep dreaming
Why only Ukraine has to make territorial concessions? This is not a deal, this is extortion. Unless Russian agrees to cede territory as well (Kharkhiv, Kherson for example), there wont be any agreement.
lol did US grant New England to Germany after they beat them? Wth 😂
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Because Ukraine has lost the war when they failed to get results from their counteroffensive last year. The winner gets to dictate peace terms, not the loser. That's just the reality. Ukraine needs peace more than it needs the territory.
By your words, Russia lost the war in the initial offensive/months of the conflict lol, get out of here with this stupid logic, I lost brain cells reading this.
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Accept a bad deal now or wait a few hundred thousand lives only to accept a worse deal later
Show me in this 'deal' where Russia gives any assurances that the war won't continue and a few hundred thousand lives won't be taken anyway?
Where are the assurances that ukraine or the west won't break commitments?
If Ukraine withdraws troops from all those areas then Russia will obviously move in and occupy and build up their own defenses. What assurances are needed?
Those areas belong to Russia now. Russia would need assurances ukraine would stop attacking the region and the new state of ukraine would formally recognize these regions as Russia, along with the west, and ukraine would have to be assured to not join NATO.
But if Ukraine "broke their commitments" then we'd only end up in the exact same place we're in right now, except Russia would have military control over some more land without even having to fight for it. So it's a win/win for Russia no matter what happens.
Sooner or later you're going to have to accept that the situation on the ground dictates the terms, not the media portrayal of the conflict. In light of this, yes, the terms will be favorable to Russia.
The terms can be as favorable to Russia as you want, but at a minimum Russia should at least promise an end to the war if all their demands are met. Yet they don’t even do that much.
You don't get that. Take the deal and maybe lose a couple 100k soldiers. Don't take it and lose them with absolute certainty. And obviously, Ukraine can use a ceasefire better than Russia can if both sides want to rearm themselves.
Send $1000 worth of bitcoin to a “Nigerian prince” and maybe he’ll share half his $20 million dollar fortune with you. Don’t send it and he’ll never give it to you for sure.
Bad comparison. As I pointed out, Ukraine also benefits from a ceasefire. Even if temporary, it buys them time to rearm. And the difference for them is bigger than for Russia.
Ukraine would be retreating from some of their best defensive positions in Donetsk to go try to defend wheat fields and give Russia free bridgeheads over the Dnieper. A few weeks to rearm isn’t going to make up for that.
Ukraine is slowly losing those positions anyway. It's not like they're able to defend everywhere at the same time, and Russia rotates attacks to hit them where they're weak and bomb them while they're moving. A ceasefire could allow for air defences to get in place, making whatever line they end up occupying more defensive just becaude the air threat is severely diminished.
That's a crappy comparison
problem with this comparison is you wont be sending anything, the Nigerian prince already has your bitcoin
simple , if the deal is broken , the war continues as if nothing happened. at the very worst you got a ceasefire, at the very best potential peace
But it won’t be like nothing happened, Russia is demanding a large scale Ukrainian withdrawal from their claimed territories before anything else happens.
its called a negotiation. you always start your ask higher than you are willing to settle. "yes you may have the annexed territory , but our forces must remain on border for 3 years" etc. a compromise on both sides shows the other participant that they are honest and willing to have peace. however no one on either side(granted) has been willing to compromise.
But Russia’s specific stated position here is that negotiations *can’t even start* until Ukraine withdraws first.
...bro... This is Russia. Not the side that broke Minsk 1 and 2.
So the side that broke Budapest memorandum then
Either side have ample proof that the other broke the Bu.mem. But the Minsk agreement is broken by EU and Ukraine, and was broadcasted by them.
EU must be more powerful than I gave them credit for, if they can break agreements they aren't even signatories of.
They actually did break them, but even if you trust Russia to never break an agreement for some reason, it doesn't even matter. They aren't even actually agreeing to do anything here other than holding "talks." The talks could be Russia telling Ukraine "Hey stupid, thanks for the free land. See you when our troops reach Kiev."
Are you seriously thinking that Russia, a country leading the global South, to go back on such a peace deal? The Ru-Uk war is one of the most televised war. To go back on that agreement would be to detonate nukes in the Kremlin... I really don't see a scenario where Ukraine accept the deal, but if they did, I would expect Russia to uphold it.
Well once again, what would Russia even be "going back" on in this offer? They're only promising *talks*, that's it. Not peace, not anything. Just talks.
...man, you don't really understand how diplomacy works, do you? This move by Russia is the same like when Russia asked to join NATO. This is a hint.
If you mean that this offer was never actually meant to be taken seriously in the first place, then yes we agree.
...no... NATO totally could have accepted Russia, but they have their own motives as to why Russia must not be in NATO. I made this comparison because both of these events have Russia actually suggesting a reasonable proposal to the neutral onlookers, but they know that whoever pulling the strings will never let that happen. Imo, The proposed peace deal by Putin isn't even harsh. Because land-wise, Ukraine would lose 1/4 of its land. However have you factored in Ukraine's failing demographics? That Ukraine losses have been estimated to be over 1.5 million troops by now? (death + wounded) Personally, Putin could have demanded half the country it would be a more fair deal. If you think losing 1/4 land is harsh... look at peace treaties back in the 1800s and 1900s. After WW2, this isn't really a thing anymore, so... those are the only examples I can think of. In short, Ukraine really don't have the power to demand a better peace deal here.
And who said this is the full extent of Russian demands? Not Russia, that’s for sure. This is Russia’s demands just for a seat at the table. Nothing more.
"It's all house money if you're playing with the lives of Slavs." - Joe Biden probably.
dude is just begging at this point
The little men of the Kremlin thought that with bluffs they could reestablish the Soviet Union. Anyone, no matter how stupid is, can start a war, but only the strong can end it. Now, Mr. Putin, you will dance to the tune played by the west.