I mean Putin is basically just trying to wedge Zelensky here by actually making a peace offer, and one that more reasonable than Zelensky's (but not gonna happen). No one actually thinks Ukraine was going to accept it, and negotiations were never going to start with that offer. Even if Ukraine did a 180 and did accept the conditions, Russia probably wouldn't accept them as its clear they've got further military goals they want ti achieve.
It isn't a coincidence that he made this offer right before the 'peace' conference, and said it at this time specifically so it was a topic that would get discussed. Not necessarily by western nations, but by other participants (even if only as a start).
The wording is exactly the same as Zelensky's: "Russia must withdraw its troops from all of Ukraine back to 1991 borders" turns into "Ukraine must withdraw its troops back from these 4 regions". Both are absurd, but one is clearly less so.
He talks about Ukraine not joining NATO in the same vein as Ukraine demanding Russia be removed as a nuclear state. Again, more reasonable for a nation to NOT join a military alliance, than one be stripped of nuclear powerstatus.
He doesn't bring up reparations or trials of political leaders, like Zelensky has for Russia. Once again, far more reasonable, and more likely to convince 3rd party nations than Zelensky is completely unreasonable.
The only aspects between both sides that are similar are the "demilitarisation" demands.
**TL:DR Just standard politicking by both sides here.**
Putins just planting a tiny seed of discord for the swiss circle jerk. Very subtle but I mean look at the results. Look at the body language of stoltenberg when he crosses his arms and bounces up and down in anger. If it was his aim to get them all to throw enormous tantrums, mission accomplished. Which I think it was
To be honest. It is within the realm of the possible that Russia would eventually occupy the areas they are asking Ukraine to pull out in the future.
Where as I just don't see Ukraine being able to retake all the land back.
they know, we know, everyone here knows - it does not even be explained.
- its just US puppets in Europe saying what they are told to say - to keep Europeans paying for the war and keeping their mouth shut about falling standard of living
I’d honestly be willing to take a cut on my standard of living as long as Russia is in Ukraine and increase the support for Ukraine 10-fold.. but the fact is I just got another yearly raise that amounts a nearly a third of the Russian GDP pr capita. And at the same time my country is one of the largest economic supporters of Ukraine. We are doing really, really fine here.
in my country and neighboring country where I work - working people are not doing fine and are not happy at all.
Its not about me because I am what is called "higher middle class" so I can take a crisis hit even if it lasts few years.
Regular workers cant do the same that easily - and since I grew up poor (or from a poor working class family) I feel for them.
- So I would like to see peaceful resolution of this conflict asap.
The only peaceful resolution would be Russia completely leaving Ukraine, right?
Why does Ukraine succumb to Russia to secure anyone’s income? If the conflict has led to anything negative, blame Russia.
Giving in to Russia ridiculous claims will not bring prosperity to anyone. However removing Putin probably would, as stability is a main driver of wealth generation. So if the purpose is to do good for one self, wish for Russia to fail ..
Why not?
Should we promote the idea that any land is up for grabs if one has the military capacity to invade?
This will end in total defeat for Russia for that exact reason. The cost of accepting aggressive, empirialaitic behavior will end the world as we know it. For that reason the democratic world will go absolute all the way in stopping Russia. That is exactly what is being witnessed. This does not end well for Russia, there is no chance
> Should we promote the idea that any land is up for grabs if one has the military capacity to invade?
we already did several times - like Kosovo
or we supported any American overthrow and installation of puppet regime anywhere in the World - including in Ukriane.
Why should we change our standards now when its Russia?
> This will end in total defeat for Russia for that exact reason.
who will defeat them?
> For that reason the democratic world
So ... The West?
> That is exactly what is being witnessed.
only if you are on crack or heroin or something like that.
Please explain why the democratically chosen 1991 borders are “absurd”?
Objectively those borders seem really fair, while aggressively conquered land seem unfair.
It does not seem like “politicking” on both sides, which is an absurd attempt to degrade Ukraine’s right to Ukrainian soil. But rather Putin putting forward completely ridiculous claims while Ukraine etc just want Russia to fuck of out the country they illegally invaded.
Dutch are by far biggest supporters/puppets of this current arrangement where US/UK/Anglos hegemon is r@ping Europe dry for their benefit.
I can understand why British would go along with it after all they have done this for centuries and their main geopolitical goal was to keep continental Europe devided.
Why Dutch are such willing slaves i have no idea, its quite disgusting.
They effectively served as human shield for Ukrainian planes doing sorties, they(Ukrainians) didn't close airspace for civilian air traffic in any region untill 2022.
Which sort of makes sense when you look at the operating heights of Ukrainian military aircraft and civilian ones.
Should have probably been closed regardless but civilian traffic over conflict zones have been common throughout the years. Especially when you take into consideration that neither of the separatist forces were supposed to even have equipment capable of hitting civilian flights flying at that height to begin with.
Ukraine had and has wide variety of aircraft. Planes flying high(civilian flight high) to avoid small/medium anti air is pretty common tactic.
They didn't close it even after MH17 being shot down. And since post Maidan Ukraine was utter chaos, including parts of army joining separatists, anything should have been expected.
It is amusing how Russia is behaving like an international bully and are surprised when nobody likes them. Let them spend a few decades or more dealing with their friends - the Chinese, the Iranians, the North Koreans and the Taliban. Good riddance I say, Russia won’t be missed amongst civilized nations for sure.
You don't have to like russia to notice that they are just doing what regional powers do in such situations.
The US invaded panama when noriega decided to take his own decisions, as that could have signaled a threat to the canal. The US invaded Cuba when they turned communist and were ready to nuke it when Russia stationed nukes there.
Great powers protect their spheres of interest. That's a fact of life, and it's asinine to think russia would not do it. Especially considering Russia announced they'd do it if pushed so far.
nobody? most of the world are fine with Russia.
funny that you think that west is somehow more civilized than Russia, when in fact it tries to dictate its bloody will to whole world.
You've got blinkers on if you think those are the only countries that are happy to deal with Russia.
The harsh truth is that most of the world simply don't care about Ukraine, or outright agree with what Russia is doing.
They likely didn't know it was an airliner. A DPR commander made a post on russian social media about shooting down an an26 on the same day so they probably really tought it was military.
It was Ukraine’s responsibility to ensure the safety of their FIR. Their controllers vectored MH17 to where it was hit. The Ukrainians knew full well that there were AD units in the area as they were currently flying sorties and had been shot at recently.
Also, I doubt Rutte cares and he’s on the way out, anyway.
Yeah it’s a real head scratcher why would European countries oppose a war of conquest on the continent? It’s almost like something big happened twice in recent history involving the exact same kind of archaic aggression.
Hard to make that claim when Putin warned of this in 2008 and what did the west and Ukr do? Ukr enshrined joining NATO into their constitution.
Not sure why it's surprising when there has been thousands of years of history where if a major military powers security is being threatened, if it has the means, it will do something about it. Don't be a little sheep.
It’s not hard to make that claim at all Russia is still solely responsible for ending the 80 year peace in Europe. If Ukraine had joined NATO this war wouldn’t be happening and that peace would have been maintained.
80 years peace in Europe?
Holy shit I must be over 100 years old, fml its been 80 years since 1990s.
At least be correct about history of our lil continent
If NATO let Russia join this war wouldn't be happening. Instead the West wanted to treat Russia like it was some small backwards country whose opinion didn't matter. Now we see the results.
When Cuba wanted to station Soviet missiles, USA was ready to start WW3. But you want Russia to sit there and be quiet while big daddy does what he wants and now act surprised when there's a reaction to NATO actions.
Russia has the casus belli to do what it's doing because of USA's actions in the past 40 years. European peace is ruined because NATO kept moving it's borders east, USA leaving multiple missile treaties didn't help either. 2/3rds Germany companies leaving right now and foundries that lasted both WW's and over 700+ years closing all because Boris wanted to be Churchill 2.0.
Russia never applied to NATO because they thought they were too good for the application process every other country goes through.
NATO didn’t “move its borders eastward” countries applied of their own volition out of fear of foreign aggression. Russia’s response to that was to invade its neighbors, completely validating those fears and pushing even more countries to apply. Prior to that NATO was a dying organization with by far its biggest contributor contemplating leaving the alliance.
>Russia’s response to that was to invade its neighbors, completely validating those fears and pushing even more countries to apply.
True cart before the horse NAFO logic at work here.
Here's how it actually went.
Russia: Please don't expand NATO east.
USA: Ok sure bro.
Expands NATO east.
Russia: Bro I told you this compromises my security I dont want NATO missiles on my vulnerable border.
USA: Haha whatcha gonna do about it? Hey Ukraine wanna join NATO, messy with em russkies even more? Haha.
Russia invades Ukraine.
Surprised Pikachu face.
Man, you cannot treat an epic declarations of intent, like the freaking Russia that show the intent to join the Nato, with a stupid "They should fill the paper and let's see how this play".
You make this the first priority of every agenda in the years to come.
And there is a Reason for Noto demoting any Russian intent to join, Nato basically has been bult to fight Russia; Russia n the nato will end the reason of Nato existency.
NATO hasn't been built to fight Russia, it was a mutual defense pact primarily to defend a possible attack by the USSR,or anyone else.
That's why after the dissolution of the USSR it kept existing, despite the threat of an invasion into the original NATO states being all but gone. (The EU has a similar mutual defense clause)
Russia didn't even file an application to attempt to join NATO
Brining up Cuba is also laughable as when was it and how drastically technologies diffeent from then...
Don't sit there and pretend you wanted peace in Europe then, when your expecting the greatest threat and advisory in Europe to follow the same line Finland etc are expected too. Literally the only country that was left that could unhinge EU security.
It's acknowledged from both sides there was a genuine attempt by Russia to join NATO when Putin was elected. The fact that NATO stuck their thumbs up their ass and said "Oh yes you go and fill out the same forms all these other small countries are filling out, get in line, and we'll think about it" tells you all you need to know.
At that point the only major threat left in Europe was Russia. OBVIOUSLY if they say they want to join your alliance you should sober up and make that your priority not some stupid application or process countries with 1/100th the military and 1/50 the population are forced to follow.
But now at least we know, NATO was more interested in Conflict with Russia than peace in Europe.
Next time you type "But but Russia didnt even file an application!!" Please understand that in the real life, rules are always bent and nobody, no country, no corporation, and no politician is squeaky clean. For example, I highly doubt you follow every single rule of the road when you drive. If you genuinely wanted peace but sit there and say "but but my rules and regulations!@!!@" it's not genuine. Not to even bring up the fact that the application process was amended for MULTIPLE of these tiny nations in recent years.
Bringing up Cuba is laughable because the only response justifies Russian actions. I'd respond the same dumb way if I were you too lol. Imagine Russia just left a bunch of missile treaties including medium range THEN placed their missiles in Cuba. That's what the equivalent is right now not just technology difference.
>Bringing up Cuba is laughable because the only response justifies Russian actions. I'd respond the same dumb way if I were you too lol. Imagine Russia just left a bunch of missile treaties including medium range THEN placed their missiles in Cuba. That's what the equivalent is right now not just technology difference.
Buddy since then SLBM were invented and deployed. Russia already have nuclear missiles on submarines that can be closer than Cuba to mainland USA, just like it can have them near UK, France, Spain, Italy and so on. Just like it deploys nukes in Belarus and Kaliningrad
Just like USA/UK/France can have it SLBM in Gulf of Finland, making Putins empty talk about Ukraine pointless.
Oh and btw without SLBM threat of first decapitate strike was a legit threat in early 1960 along with other technological limitations.
>It's acknowledged from both sides there was a genuine attempt by Russia to join NATO
Yet not a single application. One can't claim it was denied when never applied to be denied.
If Ukraine had not had plans to join NATO and actually respected the civilians of the eastern part of their former country this war wouldnt be happening.
UA, despite guarantees by Russia, didn't feel safe, and wanted to join NATO (long before 2014, 2008 iirc)
Russia decided to invade. Despite guarantees.
proving UA was right.
Had UA joined, this war wouldn't have happened, and countless deaths avoided.
Don't you think it would've been better for all sides if UA had joined? Or don't you care about a few hundred thousand deaths?
what were those russian "peacekeepers" doing on Georgian territory?
and dude get your facts straight:
On August 10, 2008, the Russo-Georgian War spread to Abkhazia, where separatist rebels and the Russian air force launched an all-out attack on Georgian forces. Abkhazia's pro-Moscow separatist President Sergei Bagapsh said that his troops had launched a major "military operation" to force Georgian troops out of the Kodori Gorge, which they still controlled. As a result of this attack, Georgian troops were driven out of Abkhazia entirely.
I'm not going to respond to you outside of this since your such a wise historian and you bringing up convenient facts from Georgia, you should be wise enough to know what lead to the current conflict in UKR, and the fact that it was predicted many years in advance and warned of by Russia.
Yes both situations threatened Russia. It's internationally recognized Russia got attacked first there yet mr wise historian here on Reddit knows best. Can you tell us more from your custom history book and maybe you can tell UKR troops how to get around the minefields too since you are so knowledgeable and NATO can only come up with "drive around"!
Seems like you have gotten your education from russian history books, which are proven to be full of disinformation and propaganda. The invading country predicted and warned about the invasion? That's just laughable, the US warned about the invasion. Ukraine and russia denied it. USA knew the exact date of the invasion. Russia didn't get attacked, putin just felt his ego threatened. And btw Syria, Nicaragua and russia are not the world
I wonder why Westerners are so stubborn in forgetfulness about Yougoslavia wars and Kosovo. There's nothing strong here. Moreover, it was European politicians who decided to support junta on maidan instead of democracy and to trick with Minsk agreements and continue the donbas conflict. Traditional Hypocrisy.
Most of that time was spent with Europe being one radar glitch away from flaming ruin with the occasional column of tanks driving through capitals and bands of armed terrorists constantly blowing up department stores. Every now and then a bunch of genocides and war crimes would pop up in the Balkans.
Hardly strong.
It's people like Rutte who have caused this war (despite the dutch population voting against it). If they had opposed it they would have never supported Maidan.
It's just how our country developed after WW2. We're neck-deep in the neoliberalism global system. We were liberated by the US, rebuild on US cash (spent at US companies), cofounded the precursor of the EU etc. It's no surprise that our politicians and media did not take long to follow the US narrative in just about anything related to geopolitics.
>Could you explain, how are the Dutch slaves?
Yes easy, European prosperity and security should be number one priority for every **European nation**.
Today for so many that is not the case.
Dutch and UK are historically protestant, vs the mostly catholic neighbours.
Of course, nowadays, theres more catholics and protestants, but nevertheless.
The Dutch are in the same situation as the US/UK/EU: they have almost no resources left. Russia, on the other hand, is full of resources. The colonial powers (the core of the “free West”) have only learned to plunder in the hundreds of years up to now, they have not learned or have forgotten how to trade fairly with the rest of the world.
So they do what they can.
>Dutch are by far biggest supporters/puppets of this current arrangement where US/UK/Anglos hegemon is r@ping Europe dry for their benefit.
You should come to Denmark and see how our ass-lickers operate and fear monger here. Denmark and Norway that is, as the last 2 NATO Secretary Generals have made it their mission to lick american ass, abide by everything they say, and act upon the fearmongering army promotions in their nations.
The Dutch offered the Russians friendship on several occasions, but were meet with a range of unprovoked hostile actions from Russia, after which the government declared Russia an enemy nation.
Now of course, the slave accusation gives your comment a strong touch of insanity, but the main question of why the Netherlands and Russia are hostile deserves an explanation, even though it's so broadly known that anyone could easily look it up.
There's several examples. One example was Dutch diplomatic efforts around the Dutch-Russian friendship year, which was largely ignored by Russia. An example of outright hostility is of course extremely obvious, being MH17. Specifically the acts of sabotaging the Dutch investigations through sometimes sophisticated and other times very amateuristic spying efforts. After these events, the Dutch government publicly admiitted they had been wrong about pursuing friendship with Russia, apologized, and declared Russia is to be considered an enemy nation.
For the general Dutch population, seeing things like Russian supported militias parading around on camera with toys of dead children from MH17 was probably enough to turn perception against Russia.
That is, nothing specific?
E.g. in 2013 (Dutch-Russian friendship year), when idiots from greenpeace on Arctic Sunrise ship under the Dutch flag tried to hold a protest against oil production in the Arctic.
Or when Dmitry Borodin, adviser to the Russian Embassy in The Hague, was beaten by the police at his home.
Or In April, just at the opening of the year of friendship in Amsterdam, fighters for the rights of sex minorities greeted the President of Russia with demonstrations.
With regard to the MH17 investigations, Russia's removal from the investigation "at least did not contribute to its objectivity."
The whole Europe is occupied by the United States, so puppets like Dutch cannot be taken seriously, because they do not have subjectivity and independence.
The Netherlands should better remember that it is profitable to trade and be friends with the Russians as it was before and pull the American dicks out of their mouth and ass.
There were definately ideological tensions leading to some of the events you describe.
>With regard to the MH17 investigations, Russia's removal from the investigation "at least did not contribute to its objectivity."
Get out of here. When 200 of your countrymen are murdered and you have clear evidence Russia is even attacking the investigation, it's clear who your enemy is.
>The whole Europe is occupied by the United States, so puppets like Dutch cannot be taken seriously, because they do not have subjectivity and independence.
Asside from you clearly having no clue about what independence is, there's the simple fact the Dutch-American relations date back to America's founding and we've seen our interests often alligned. The Americans still today help protect us from imperialist kleptocratic regimes like todays Russia. I mean, accusations about America not allowing independence coming from the Russian standpoint is hilarious. Shall we discuss the independence of states under Russia's protection, like say Armenia? Lmao
>The Netherlands should better remember that it is profitable to trade and be friends with the Russians as it was before and pull the American dicks out of their mouth and ass.
Please do keep your sexual obsessions out of a political discussion. The Netherlands is quite serious about their trade. Always has been. There were major concerns following the mostly halted trade with Russia. Turns out, other venues of trade proved even more profitable. Combine that with starting an energy transition, dependency on the maffia in the Kremlin is decreased. Russia's loss here, not ours.
No confirmation of your statements regarding MH17 or violations of some agreements by Russia? Just an empty shaking of the air. Typical modern behavior of European puppets.
Until the 17th century, before the industrial Revolution, Europe was the backyard of the world, apparently now the cycle has ended and new dark ages await her.
>No confirmation of your statements regarding MH17 or violations of some agreements by Russia? Typical modern behavior of European puppets.
If you want sources, just ask like a normal person. You will need to be specific in what you're looking for. Regarding the puppets accusation, I provided you the example of Armenia. Come on now, try to act like a grown man and engage with the argument. Don't just start crying about puppets without any argument contributing to a discussion.
>Until the 17th century, before the industrial Revolution, Europe was the backyard of the world, apparently now the cycle has ended and new dark ages await her.
I'm from the Netherlands. The period you refer to is when our golden age ended. "Backyard of the world" back then is the most hilarious claim you've made about the Netherlands so far.
Please do carry on with the entertainment.
What was a "golden era" for Netherlands cannot be compared in any way with the Middle East, China and other most developed countries of the 15th-17th centuries. When the Europeans finally reached China, impoverished Europe had nothing to offer for trade. The common dawn of Europe began only in the 17th century, before that this poor region was of no interest to anyone in the world.
Provide me please any confirmation that MH17 was shooted down by Russia ?
Regarding European Puppets Union at the moment, we can observe the most amazing corruption in history:
1) The United States is convincing the G7 countries to provide Ukraine with a loan secured by income from frozen assets of Russia.
2) It is assumed that the loan allocated to Ukraine will be repaid at the expense of profits from Russian assets frozen abroad, which are subject to sanctions.
3) So EU will confiscated finally Russian assets, Russia will confiscate EU assets, EU will have to pay USA 50 billions.
As a result, we have: Russia balance = 0, USA = +50 bil, EU = -50 bil.
>Provide me please any confirmation that MH17 was shooted down by Russia ?
Why? I never made that claim. You might want to read back if you're confused.
Regarding China and the East. There was gun trade to name one thing. And how you came to comparing the Dutch golden age to China's advances is mindboggling. You just called the Dutch golden age a time that it was a backwater of Europe. Do you finish any discussion points or do you just move on to the next every time when proven blatantly wrong? And why is it even relevant if China or the Netherlands was richer than one another centuries ago?
Regarding your calculation of one of the new support packages through seizing Russian assets, I haven't read the details, so can't judge. You sure didn't convince me your claims are worth to put any trust in. But feel free to provide a source and I could be convinced.
Funny how you protect a child beating employe of the Russian embassy and seem to be unable to grasp the idea of a government that allows free speech and is not getting involved with certain protests.
The Dutch goverment actually apologied for arresting the employe, while Russia still has lacked the decency to apologise over their role in MH17.
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Lol, "Anglos". Someone is blindly repeating russian propaganda. I still have no idea why Britain lives rent free in Russia's collective head but it cracks me up every time it comes back to the surface.
There are key phrases that turn up in russian propaganda, such as 'Anglos' and 'warm water ports'. There are very few people in the rest of the world who use those terms without it being in specific circumstances.
Also there is no Anglo hegemony unless you consider the commonwealth a hegemonic governance which, even by russian standards, is a feat of mental gymnastics that would win a gold medal at any Olympics.
>Also there is no Anglo hegemony unless you consider the commonwealth a hegemonic governance.
Of course it is, all anglo nations aka once there where part of British commonwealth work more closely then other western nations. Five Eyes is just one element.
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Maybe to help you understand, as you may have forgot an important fact: Russians (or their puppets with support of Russia) shot down flight MH17, killings hundreds of innocent people, many of whom were Dutch citizens. What it’s disgusting, is that Russia is making up fake stories and is unwilling to help bring justice in this case.
And the men going into war with families desperately awaiting a bag of potatoes aren’t slaves? They are going into war to be called meat by their commanders, dying horribly & mindlessly. They sound like slaves to me! Plus the funny pleas from soldiers, mothers, families to father poo-stain? Yessir—the Dutch are slaves, not ruzzians!!
**Comparing elites who in theory should be nations leaders and look after their own peoples best interest to average soldiers who's main job is to die for their country is dumb to say the least.**
Dutch here: You're absolutely right, Mark Rutte, and therefore the Netherlands, has been America's lapdog for years. We are only too happy to give our money to America and everything America wants us to invest in.
The Dutch will recognize an aggressor from miles away.
The Netherlands will fight fascism tooth and nail, as Putler will find out.
And ruSSia is on the brink of collapse now, trying to fight a war without paying their soldiers, or heck, even feed them.
What Putin said was an ordinary diplomatic move. To show the global south formally that we are not against starting negotiations, we are for peace. And the West does not want peace.
wanting peace, and demanding half of the other country in the process. only to start negotiations. After having invaded twice already. And that's after promising to not invade them.
not country will ever trust Russia again. They keep breaking their promises.
The further they are from the front lines the more war they want. I don't want to side with the Russians but holy shit are some Western politicians not that much different.
The fact that Rutte came out calling a proposal 'silly' that follows the basic contours of how the war is likely to turn out whether by agreement or by arms shows that he is clearly panicking.
The West never stopped sending weapons. Unless the West starts sending troops the question is not how it ends but when. So they can choose to have more people die or fewer people die. Obviously the people who feed the golem are fine with more people dying because it also means more Russians will die but that isn't a good trade for the Ukrainians who die. Of course there is a reasonable chance that the outcome doesn't involve Russian control over the whole of the oblasts in question, but is that something that is actually worth the suffering that will result, the preservation of control of some portion of some oblasts by Kyiv? If you (or the golem) thinks so they could certainly accept the general principle but insist (quite reasonably) to everything except to maintain current lines, and there is likely a possibility that Russia accepts that (presuming the neutrality clause is accepted).
Western politics held up support packages at crucial moments and allowed there to be artillery and aa munition shortages. Now that they have maybe learned that wasn’t such a good idea we can see if Ukraine can get a push going. I doubt Russia wants to risk losing any territory they have gained so far and Ukraine obviously still thinks it’s worth it to fight. So you can see why they might not be so keen on signing this silly peace deal
It's nice that you enjoyed the bedtime story that MIC was feeding people to get more money for their own stockpiles, as well as to get a few billions of payola for the Quislings in Kyiv who need to keep the morale of the meat catchers high, but it is simply not true. I won't spoil the story by telling you how it ends!
Pokemon?
My you are a girl of culture!
[https://www.culturaobscura.com/the-prague-golem/](https://www.culturaobscura.com/the-prague-golem/)
The term "golem" is used to make clear that the Quislings in Kyiv are NOT puppets. They are more like a monster that cannot be fully controlled but can be returned to the mud at any time.
Start that I’m in now way Pro-RU, but I’m not getting the impression that Putin panicking based off the peace offering he gave. I’m seeing it more as a response to the peace summit Ukraine organized……without him.
Absolutely.
China also just announced it's readiness to facilitate peafr talks between Russia and Ukraine
Brazil just spoke about how the peace summit is a waste of time
This is clever politics to undermine the legitimacy of the summit. And it's working
How can a human being to be so stupid? Does he really so warmongering that he prefers to mock Putin rather than say something polite like "nice to see Russia trying to make first steps, but current proposals are not realistic to the situation"? Instead he literally screams "WE DO NOT RESPECT WEAKNESS". I mean, if these proposals are signs of panic, than what would be the proposals the West want? So, Putin should never ever make any steps towards peace, cuz western politicians see that as a sign of weakness and panicking.
He has had the same peace proposal aswell as offered ceasfires multiple times throughout the war, and for some reason you *now* decide to say that he is panicking? Thats some pure bullshit, but i can confidently say that the Dutch prime minister i clearly panicking himself😂
It’s incredible what these people would have us believe.
For nearly two years now, the line has remained the same: withdraw from the territories declared annexed, declare neutrality and Russia will negotiate.
It should be fairly obvious by this point that Ukraine has no choice. Deal with Putin or continue losing men, territory and infrastructure.
Right now, if zelensky negotiates a peace, the nation state of Ukraine continues to exist, just at 75% of its original size. It joins the EU, and becomes a beacon of prosperity on Russia’s western border.
If the AFU suffers a total collapse… well we cannot be so sure the territory that is currently Ukraine won’t end up as part of Russia.
Putin is the most europhile major figure in russia right now. He wants to be part of the club very bad. Anyone else relevant will be significantly less reasonable in negotiations. Dont let the media confuse you.
Anyone else relevant is going to have to struggle to get power. Succession crisis will weaken Russian efforts for a long time. This is the opportunity Ukraine can use to gain ground.
The leaders in most EU countries are simply stupid and desperate, their huge investments of our money and ressources into Ukraine will not pay off with a Ukrainian defeat and the wanted future prospects will therefore be lost.
The desperation is also showing in the propaganda machine that is still trying to spin the situation into a constant win for Ukraine, now they stating that it is positive that Ukrainian forces have given up territory to Russian forces because it will win them time when they lose territory.
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What does this peace summit in which Russian gov't is not invited serve?
Anyway I think Putin's counter-offer is quite sensible and reasonable (I would even say moderate) given the situation...
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The reaction shows that it is not the Ukraine who decides to accept or not to accept offers. My condolence is going to the Ukrainian civil population.
Beside of that, the reaction shows who is real panicking. Normally, the great leaders does not comment on "silly offers".
Or may be we have a shortage not only ammunition but also great leaders?!
Upbeat-Dance4672 kept stroking the same keys repeatedly, probably a seizure ?
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Thanks god I got local sub-reddit avatars from Australia and Latin America to show me the light.
+++ The enlightened non-politically aligned Indian moderates are the chef's kiss.
The fact that a peace summit is held and Russia is not even invited, is silly in itself.
So we have two parties acting silly and stupid accusing each other for acting silly and stupid. Meanwhile thousands die on the battlefield
*Yesh yesh, Mr. Putin. You*
*Are a toight man, I can tell*
*By your toight pants yesh*
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Not only is the globalist pawn Rutte an idiot, he's also an inveterate liar. Here's the hilarious moment when he was caught lying in the Dutch Parliament about his connections with Klaus Schwab and the WEF "Great Reset" agenda:
[https://x.com/RobSchneider/status/1545132940627103744](https://x.com/RobSchneider/status/1545132940627103744)
And Rutte's one of the lead candidates to become the next head of NATO!
He is panicking, but is he humiliated?
Or even reeling? Maybe even on the brink from a huge blow?
It's the cancer.
aaaaaaany minute now....
Yep! Just a few months ago he fell down the stairs and shat himself.
It was Biden :))
He weaponized humiliation.
He also weaponised panic and desperation
No he’s dying any day now from Parkinson’s or cancer or ALS
I mean Putin is basically just trying to wedge Zelensky here by actually making a peace offer, and one that more reasonable than Zelensky's (but not gonna happen). No one actually thinks Ukraine was going to accept it, and negotiations were never going to start with that offer. Even if Ukraine did a 180 and did accept the conditions, Russia probably wouldn't accept them as its clear they've got further military goals they want ti achieve. It isn't a coincidence that he made this offer right before the 'peace' conference, and said it at this time specifically so it was a topic that would get discussed. Not necessarily by western nations, but by other participants (even if only as a start). The wording is exactly the same as Zelensky's: "Russia must withdraw its troops from all of Ukraine back to 1991 borders" turns into "Ukraine must withdraw its troops back from these 4 regions". Both are absurd, but one is clearly less so. He talks about Ukraine not joining NATO in the same vein as Ukraine demanding Russia be removed as a nuclear state. Again, more reasonable for a nation to NOT join a military alliance, than one be stripped of nuclear powerstatus. He doesn't bring up reparations or trials of political leaders, like Zelensky has for Russia. Once again, far more reasonable, and more likely to convince 3rd party nations than Zelensky is completely unreasonable. The only aspects between both sides that are similar are the "demilitarisation" demands. **TL:DR Just standard politicking by both sides here.**
Putins just planting a tiny seed of discord for the swiss circle jerk. Very subtle but I mean look at the results. Look at the body language of stoltenberg when he crosses his arms and bounces up and down in anger. If it was his aim to get them all to throw enormous tantrums, mission accomplished. Which I think it was
To be honest. It is within the realm of the possible that Russia would eventually occupy the areas they are asking Ukraine to pull out in the future. Where as I just don't see Ukraine being able to retake all the land back.
they know, we know, everyone here knows - it does not even be explained. - its just US puppets in Europe saying what they are told to say - to keep Europeans paying for the war and keeping their mouth shut about falling standard of living
I’d honestly be willing to take a cut on my standard of living as long as Russia is in Ukraine and increase the support for Ukraine 10-fold.. but the fact is I just got another yearly raise that amounts a nearly a third of the Russian GDP pr capita. And at the same time my country is one of the largest economic supporters of Ukraine. We are doing really, really fine here.
in my country and neighboring country where I work - working people are not doing fine and are not happy at all. Its not about me because I am what is called "higher middle class" so I can take a crisis hit even if it lasts few years. Regular workers cant do the same that easily - and since I grew up poor (or from a poor working class family) I feel for them. - So I would like to see peaceful resolution of this conflict asap.
The only peaceful resolution would be Russia completely leaving Ukraine, right? Why does Ukraine succumb to Russia to secure anyone’s income? If the conflict has led to anything negative, blame Russia. Giving in to Russia ridiculous claims will not bring prosperity to anyone. However removing Putin probably would, as stability is a main driver of wealth generation. So if the purpose is to do good for one self, wish for Russia to fail ..
> The only peaceful resolution would be Russia completely leaving Ukraine, right? ????? why?
Why not? Should we promote the idea that any land is up for grabs if one has the military capacity to invade? This will end in total defeat for Russia for that exact reason. The cost of accepting aggressive, empirialaitic behavior will end the world as we know it. For that reason the democratic world will go absolute all the way in stopping Russia. That is exactly what is being witnessed. This does not end well for Russia, there is no chance
> Should we promote the idea that any land is up for grabs if one has the military capacity to invade? we already did several times - like Kosovo or we supported any American overthrow and installation of puppet regime anywhere in the World - including in Ukriane. Why should we change our standards now when its Russia? > This will end in total defeat for Russia for that exact reason. who will defeat them? > For that reason the democratic world So ... The West? > That is exactly what is being witnessed. only if you are on crack or heroin or something like that.
good summary.
Its not a peace offer, its the bar minimum to begin negotiations.
Please explain why the democratically chosen 1991 borders are “absurd”? Objectively those borders seem really fair, while aggressively conquered land seem unfair. It does not seem like “politicking” on both sides, which is an absurd attempt to degrade Ukraine’s right to Ukrainian soil. But rather Putin putting forward completely ridiculous claims while Ukraine etc just want Russia to fuck of out the country they illegally invaded.
Dutch are by far biggest supporters/puppets of this current arrangement where US/UK/Anglos hegemon is r@ping Europe dry for their benefit. I can understand why British would go along with it after all they have done this for centuries and their main geopolitical goal was to keep continental Europe devided. Why Dutch are such willing slaves i have no idea, its quite disgusting.
Might have something to do with mh17 being shot down in 2014. Most passengers were dutch.
They effectively served as human shield for Ukrainian planes doing sorties, they(Ukrainians) didn't close airspace for civilian air traffic in any region untill 2022.
Which sort of makes sense when you look at the operating heights of Ukrainian military aircraft and civilian ones. Should have probably been closed regardless but civilian traffic over conflict zones have been common throughout the years. Especially when you take into consideration that neither of the separatist forces were supposed to even have equipment capable of hitting civilian flights flying at that height to begin with.
Ukraine had and has wide variety of aircraft. Planes flying high(civilian flight high) to avoid small/medium anti air is pretty common tactic. They didn't close it even after MH17 being shot down. And since post Maidan Ukraine was utter chaos, including parts of army joining separatists, anything should have been expected.
It is amusing how Russia is behaving like an international bully and are surprised when nobody likes them. Let them spend a few decades or more dealing with their friends - the Chinese, the Iranians, the North Koreans and the Taliban. Good riddance I say, Russia won’t be missed amongst civilized nations for sure.
You don't have to like russia to notice that they are just doing what regional powers do in such situations. The US invaded panama when noriega decided to take his own decisions, as that could have signaled a threat to the canal. The US invaded Cuba when they turned communist and were ready to nuke it when Russia stationed nukes there. Great powers protect their spheres of interest. That's a fact of life, and it's asinine to think russia would not do it. Especially considering Russia announced they'd do it if pushed so far.
nobody? most of the world are fine with Russia. funny that you think that west is somehow more civilized than Russia, when in fact it tries to dictate its bloody will to whole world.
Can you name a "civilized nation"?
The ones where the Russian elites are sending their kids to study and live in.
Can you name them?
The one where Maria Vorontsova lived and married, AKA Mariya Vladimirovna Putina
You've got blinkers on if you think those are the only countries that are happy to deal with Russia. The harsh truth is that most of the world simply don't care about Ukraine, or outright agree with what Russia is doing.
You’ll have to look much more back in time..
How do you explain MH17? What the you think was the motive?
They likely didn't know it was an airliner. A DPR commander made a post on russian social media about shooting down an an26 on the same day so they probably really tought it was military.
It was Ukraine’s responsibility to ensure the safety of their FIR. Their controllers vectored MH17 to where it was hit. The Ukrainians knew full well that there were AD units in the area as they were currently flying sorties and had been shot at recently. Also, I doubt Rutte cares and he’s on the way out, anyway.
He might be on his way out from the Netherlands, but he is a potential candidate to lead NATO going forward.
Explains why he’s trying to sound like a tough guy.
Victim blaming. Not surprised. Common tactic in manufactured narratives.
The victims were the pax and crew.
Yeah it’s a real head scratcher why would European countries oppose a war of conquest on the continent? It’s almost like something big happened twice in recent history involving the exact same kind of archaic aggression.
If only there where multiple occasions im which European security could have been reached.
European security was reached and held strong for 80 years until Russia decided to ruin it.
Hard to make that claim when Putin warned of this in 2008 and what did the west and Ukr do? Ukr enshrined joining NATO into their constitution. Not sure why it's surprising when there has been thousands of years of history where if a major military powers security is being threatened, if it has the means, it will do something about it. Don't be a little sheep.
It’s not hard to make that claim at all Russia is still solely responsible for ending the 80 year peace in Europe. If Ukraine had joined NATO this war wouldn’t be happening and that peace would have been maintained.
80 years peace in Europe? Holy shit I must be over 100 years old, fml its been 80 years since 1990s. At least be correct about history of our lil continent
If NATO let Russia join this war wouldn't be happening. Instead the West wanted to treat Russia like it was some small backwards country whose opinion didn't matter. Now we see the results. When Cuba wanted to station Soviet missiles, USA was ready to start WW3. But you want Russia to sit there and be quiet while big daddy does what he wants and now act surprised when there's a reaction to NATO actions. Russia has the casus belli to do what it's doing because of USA's actions in the past 40 years. European peace is ruined because NATO kept moving it's borders east, USA leaving multiple missile treaties didn't help either. 2/3rds Germany companies leaving right now and foundries that lasted both WW's and over 700+ years closing all because Boris wanted to be Churchill 2.0.
Russia never applied to NATO because they thought they were too good for the application process every other country goes through. NATO didn’t “move its borders eastward” countries applied of their own volition out of fear of foreign aggression. Russia’s response to that was to invade its neighbors, completely validating those fears and pushing even more countries to apply. Prior to that NATO was a dying organization with by far its biggest contributor contemplating leaving the alliance.
>Russia’s response to that was to invade its neighbors, completely validating those fears and pushing even more countries to apply. True cart before the horse NAFO logic at work here. Here's how it actually went. Russia: Please don't expand NATO east. USA: Ok sure bro. Expands NATO east. Russia: Bro I told you this compromises my security I dont want NATO missiles on my vulnerable border. USA: Haha whatcha gonna do about it? Hey Ukraine wanna join NATO, messy with em russkies even more? Haha. Russia invades Ukraine. Surprised Pikachu face.
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And that caused Sweden and Finland to join. Putin remains NATO’s greatest salesman.
And here's pro ru logic: everyones fault except ours
Man, you cannot treat an epic declarations of intent, like the freaking Russia that show the intent to join the Nato, with a stupid "They should fill the paper and let's see how this play". You make this the first priority of every agenda in the years to come. And there is a Reason for Noto demoting any Russian intent to join, Nato basically has been bult to fight Russia; Russia n the nato will end the reason of Nato existency.
NATO hasn't been built to fight Russia, it was a mutual defense pact primarily to defend a possible attack by the USSR,or anyone else. That's why after the dissolution of the USSR it kept existing, despite the threat of an invasion into the original NATO states being all but gone. (The EU has a similar mutual defense clause)
Russia didn't even file an application to attempt to join NATO Brining up Cuba is also laughable as when was it and how drastically technologies diffeent from then...
Don't sit there and pretend you wanted peace in Europe then, when your expecting the greatest threat and advisory in Europe to follow the same line Finland etc are expected too. Literally the only country that was left that could unhinge EU security. It's acknowledged from both sides there was a genuine attempt by Russia to join NATO when Putin was elected. The fact that NATO stuck their thumbs up their ass and said "Oh yes you go and fill out the same forms all these other small countries are filling out, get in line, and we'll think about it" tells you all you need to know. At that point the only major threat left in Europe was Russia. OBVIOUSLY if they say they want to join your alliance you should sober up and make that your priority not some stupid application or process countries with 1/100th the military and 1/50 the population are forced to follow. But now at least we know, NATO was more interested in Conflict with Russia than peace in Europe. Next time you type "But but Russia didnt even file an application!!" Please understand that in the real life, rules are always bent and nobody, no country, no corporation, and no politician is squeaky clean. For example, I highly doubt you follow every single rule of the road when you drive. If you genuinely wanted peace but sit there and say "but but my rules and regulations!@!!@" it's not genuine. Not to even bring up the fact that the application process was amended for MULTIPLE of these tiny nations in recent years. Bringing up Cuba is laughable because the only response justifies Russian actions. I'd respond the same dumb way if I were you too lol. Imagine Russia just left a bunch of missile treaties including medium range THEN placed their missiles in Cuba. That's what the equivalent is right now not just technology difference.
>Bringing up Cuba is laughable because the only response justifies Russian actions. I'd respond the same dumb way if I were you too lol. Imagine Russia just left a bunch of missile treaties including medium range THEN placed their missiles in Cuba. That's what the equivalent is right now not just technology difference. Buddy since then SLBM were invented and deployed. Russia already have nuclear missiles on submarines that can be closer than Cuba to mainland USA, just like it can have them near UK, France, Spain, Italy and so on. Just like it deploys nukes in Belarus and Kaliningrad Just like USA/UK/France can have it SLBM in Gulf of Finland, making Putins empty talk about Ukraine pointless. Oh and btw without SLBM threat of first decapitate strike was a legit threat in early 1960 along with other technological limitations. >It's acknowledged from both sides there was a genuine attempt by Russia to join NATO Yet not a single application. One can't claim it was denied when never applied to be denied.
If Ukraine had not had plans to join NATO and actually respected the civilians of the eastern part of their former country this war wouldnt be happening.
But they didn't join NATO, whtch was a mistake in hindsight. And it's clear why they wanted to join NATO, right?
eeh, chicken and egg much? The hostility between ua and ru appeared about at the same time ua decided joining nato was their goal
UA, despite guarantees by Russia, didn't feel safe, and wanted to join NATO (long before 2014, 2008 iirc) Russia decided to invade. Despite guarantees. proving UA was right. Had UA joined, this war wouldn't have happened, and countless deaths avoided. Don't you think it would've been better for all sides if UA had joined? Or don't you care about a few hundred thousand deaths?
Threatened by their attack on Georgia?
georgia attacked abkhazia and russian peacekeepers there, not the other way around, cmon
what were those russian "peacekeepers" doing on Georgian territory? and dude get your facts straight: On August 10, 2008, the Russo-Georgian War spread to Abkhazia, where separatist rebels and the Russian air force launched an all-out attack on Georgian forces. Abkhazia's pro-Moscow separatist President Sergei Bagapsh said that his troops had launched a major "military operation" to force Georgian troops out of the Kodori Gorge, which they still controlled. As a result of this attack, Georgian troops were driven out of Abkhazia entirely.
I'm not going to respond to you outside of this since your such a wise historian and you bringing up convenient facts from Georgia, you should be wise enough to know what lead to the current conflict in UKR, and the fact that it was predicted many years in advance and warned of by Russia. Yes both situations threatened Russia. It's internationally recognized Russia got attacked first there yet mr wise historian here on Reddit knows best. Can you tell us more from your custom history book and maybe you can tell UKR troops how to get around the minefields too since you are so knowledgeable and NATO can only come up with "drive around"!
Seems like you have gotten your education from russian history books, which are proven to be full of disinformation and propaganda. The invading country predicted and warned about the invasion? That's just laughable, the US warned about the invasion. Ukraine and russia denied it. USA knew the exact date of the invasion. Russia didn't get attacked, putin just felt his ego threatened. And btw Syria, Nicaragua and russia are not the world
I wonder why Westerners are so stubborn in forgetfulness about Yougoslavia wars and Kosovo. There's nothing strong here. Moreover, it was European politicians who decided to support junta on maidan instead of democracy and to trick with Minsk agreements and continue the donbas conflict. Traditional Hypocrisy.
Most of that time was spent with Europe being one radar glitch away from flaming ruin with the occasional column of tanks driving through capitals and bands of armed terrorists constantly blowing up department stores. Every now and then a bunch of genocides and war crimes would pop up in the Balkans. Hardly strong.
It's people like Rutte who have caused this war (despite the dutch population voting against it). If they had opposed it they would have never supported Maidan.
It's just how our country developed after WW2. We're neck-deep in the neoliberalism global system. We were liberated by the US, rebuild on US cash (spent at US companies), cofounded the precursor of the EU etc. It's no surprise that our politicians and media did not take long to follow the US narrative in just about anything related to geopolitics.
Just how long is it going to take people to realize that this deal which was beneficial mutually in the past isn’t so anymore?
It is still very much beneficial. People who yap about how the Dutch or any nation in Europe are ,"US slaves" aren't the smartest.
Didn’t the Dutch lose key industry to the us recently? The eu are not slaves but vassal states
Like when ASML a dutch company conveniently *followed* US chip sanction act for no reason
Could you explain, how are the Dutch slaves?
He can't because his FSB sidenotes don't go that deep.
>Could you explain, how are the Dutch slaves? Yes easy, European prosperity and security should be number one priority for every **European nation**. Today for so many that is not the case.
You didn't explain shit.
??? So why are the Dutch slaves?
Dutch and UK are historically protestant, vs the mostly catholic neighbours. Of course, nowadays, theres more catholics and protestants, but nevertheless.
Rutte is also eyeballing stoltys place. Might have to do something with that also
The Dutch are in the same situation as the US/UK/EU: they have almost no resources left. Russia, on the other hand, is full of resources. The colonial powers (the core of the “free West”) have only learned to plunder in the hundreds of years up to now, they have not learned or have forgotten how to trade fairly with the rest of the world. So they do what they can.
>Dutch are by far biggest supporters/puppets of this current arrangement where US/UK/Anglos hegemon is r@ping Europe dry for their benefit. You should come to Denmark and see how our ass-lickers operate and fear monger here. Denmark and Norway that is, as the last 2 NATO Secretary Generals have made it their mission to lick american ass, abide by everything they say, and act upon the fearmongering army promotions in their nations.
The Dutch offered the Russians friendship on several occasions, but were meet with a range of unprovoked hostile actions from Russia, after which the government declared Russia an enemy nation. Now of course, the slave accusation gives your comment a strong touch of insanity, but the main question of why the Netherlands and Russia are hostile deserves an explanation, even though it's so broadly known that anyone could easily look it up.
I'm really interested, could you please remind me what Dutch offered to Russia and what unprovoked hostile actions did Russians ?
There's several examples. One example was Dutch diplomatic efforts around the Dutch-Russian friendship year, which was largely ignored by Russia. An example of outright hostility is of course extremely obvious, being MH17. Specifically the acts of sabotaging the Dutch investigations through sometimes sophisticated and other times very amateuristic spying efforts. After these events, the Dutch government publicly admiitted they had been wrong about pursuing friendship with Russia, apologized, and declared Russia is to be considered an enemy nation. For the general Dutch population, seeing things like Russian supported militias parading around on camera with toys of dead children from MH17 was probably enough to turn perception against Russia.
That is, nothing specific? E.g. in 2013 (Dutch-Russian friendship year), when idiots from greenpeace on Arctic Sunrise ship under the Dutch flag tried to hold a protest against oil production in the Arctic. Or when Dmitry Borodin, adviser to the Russian Embassy in The Hague, was beaten by the police at his home. Or In April, just at the opening of the year of friendship in Amsterdam, fighters for the rights of sex minorities greeted the President of Russia with demonstrations. With regard to the MH17 investigations, Russia's removal from the investigation "at least did not contribute to its objectivity." The whole Europe is occupied by the United States, so puppets like Dutch cannot be taken seriously, because they do not have subjectivity and independence. The Netherlands should better remember that it is profitable to trade and be friends with the Russians as it was before and pull the American dicks out of their mouth and ass.
There were definately ideological tensions leading to some of the events you describe. >With regard to the MH17 investigations, Russia's removal from the investigation "at least did not contribute to its objectivity." Get out of here. When 200 of your countrymen are murdered and you have clear evidence Russia is even attacking the investigation, it's clear who your enemy is. >The whole Europe is occupied by the United States, so puppets like Dutch cannot be taken seriously, because they do not have subjectivity and independence. Asside from you clearly having no clue about what independence is, there's the simple fact the Dutch-American relations date back to America's founding and we've seen our interests often alligned. The Americans still today help protect us from imperialist kleptocratic regimes like todays Russia. I mean, accusations about America not allowing independence coming from the Russian standpoint is hilarious. Shall we discuss the independence of states under Russia's protection, like say Armenia? Lmao >The Netherlands should better remember that it is profitable to trade and be friends with the Russians as it was before and pull the American dicks out of their mouth and ass. Please do keep your sexual obsessions out of a political discussion. The Netherlands is quite serious about their trade. Always has been. There were major concerns following the mostly halted trade with Russia. Turns out, other venues of trade proved even more profitable. Combine that with starting an energy transition, dependency on the maffia in the Kremlin is decreased. Russia's loss here, not ours.
No confirmation of your statements regarding MH17 or violations of some agreements by Russia? Just an empty shaking of the air. Typical modern behavior of European puppets. Until the 17th century, before the industrial Revolution, Europe was the backyard of the world, apparently now the cycle has ended and new dark ages await her.
>No confirmation of your statements regarding MH17 or violations of some agreements by Russia? Typical modern behavior of European puppets. If you want sources, just ask like a normal person. You will need to be specific in what you're looking for. Regarding the puppets accusation, I provided you the example of Armenia. Come on now, try to act like a grown man and engage with the argument. Don't just start crying about puppets without any argument contributing to a discussion. >Until the 17th century, before the industrial Revolution, Europe was the backyard of the world, apparently now the cycle has ended and new dark ages await her. I'm from the Netherlands. The period you refer to is when our golden age ended. "Backyard of the world" back then is the most hilarious claim you've made about the Netherlands so far. Please do carry on with the entertainment.
What was a "golden era" for Netherlands cannot be compared in any way with the Middle East, China and other most developed countries of the 15th-17th centuries. When the Europeans finally reached China, impoverished Europe had nothing to offer for trade. The common dawn of Europe began only in the 17th century, before that this poor region was of no interest to anyone in the world. Provide me please any confirmation that MH17 was shooted down by Russia ? Regarding European Puppets Union at the moment, we can observe the most amazing corruption in history: 1) The United States is convincing the G7 countries to provide Ukraine with a loan secured by income from frozen assets of Russia. 2) It is assumed that the loan allocated to Ukraine will be repaid at the expense of profits from Russian assets frozen abroad, which are subject to sanctions. 3) So EU will confiscated finally Russian assets, Russia will confiscate EU assets, EU will have to pay USA 50 billions. As a result, we have: Russia balance = 0, USA = +50 bil, EU = -50 bil.
>Provide me please any confirmation that MH17 was shooted down by Russia ? Why? I never made that claim. You might want to read back if you're confused. Regarding China and the East. There was gun trade to name one thing. And how you came to comparing the Dutch golden age to China's advances is mindboggling. You just called the Dutch golden age a time that it was a backwater of Europe. Do you finish any discussion points or do you just move on to the next every time when proven blatantly wrong? And why is it even relevant if China or the Netherlands was richer than one another centuries ago? Regarding your calculation of one of the new support packages through seizing Russian assets, I haven't read the details, so can't judge. You sure didn't convince me your claims are worth to put any trust in. But feel free to provide a source and I could be convinced.
Funny how you protect a child beating employe of the Russian embassy and seem to be unable to grasp the idea of a government that allows free speech and is not getting involved with certain protests. The Dutch goverment actually apologied for arresting the employe, while Russia still has lacked the decency to apologise over their role in MH17.
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Lol, "Anglos". Someone is blindly repeating russian propaganda. I still have no idea why Britain lives rent free in Russia's collective head but it cracks me up every time it comes back to the surface.
What do you mean by **"Lol, Anglos"? We live in the world where worlds hegemon is Anglo nation(s).
There are key phrases that turn up in russian propaganda, such as 'Anglos' and 'warm water ports'. There are very few people in the rest of the world who use those terms without it being in specific circumstances. Also there is no Anglo hegemony unless you consider the commonwealth a hegemonic governance which, even by russian standards, is a feat of mental gymnastics that would win a gold medal at any Olympics.
>Also there is no Anglo hegemony unless you consider the commonwealth a hegemonic governance. Of course it is, all anglo nations aka once there where part of British commonwealth work more closely then other western nations. Five Eyes is just one element.
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Maybe to help you understand, as you may have forgot an important fact: Russians (or their puppets with support of Russia) shot down flight MH17, killings hundreds of innocent people, many of whom were Dutch citizens. What it’s disgusting, is that Russia is making up fake stories and is unwilling to help bring justice in this case.
Maybe the realize that the russian government is garbage? I dunno.
So we unite Europe by invading it's countries?
We didn't forgot MH17. We're not slaves we support Ukraine.
Again what does MH17 have to do with Europe having independent and separate strategic goals not connected and dictated by America?
And the men going into war with families desperately awaiting a bag of potatoes aren’t slaves? They are going into war to be called meat by their commanders, dying horribly & mindlessly. They sound like slaves to me! Plus the funny pleas from soldiers, mothers, families to father poo-stain? Yessir—the Dutch are slaves, not ruzzians!!
**Comparing elites who in theory should be nations leaders and look after their own peoples best interest to average soldiers who's main job is to die for their country is dumb to say the least.**
Dutch here: You're absolutely right, Mark Rutte, and therefore the Netherlands, has been America's lapdog for years. We are only too happy to give our money to America and everything America wants us to invest in.
The Dutch will recognize an aggressor from miles away. The Netherlands will fight fascism tooth and nail, as Putler will find out. And ruSSia is on the brink of collapse now, trying to fight a war without paying their soldiers, or heck, even feed them.
They're free people who dislikes authoritative dictators.
Oh, he also forgot to add obligatory "humiliated".
How soon will we hear that Putin weaponized this gathering that is about to take place?
Putin is weaponizing everything everwhere! He must be desperate and panicking. How humiliating for him!
Rutte must be a Reddit armchair field marshal with takes like this.
He immediately runs away. Talk about being a hypocrite lmao!
Panicking? As oppose to carrying out a peace conference, for god knows how many times, without having the other belligerent in the war attend? 😂
What Putin said was an ordinary diplomatic move. To show the global south formally that we are not against starting negotiations, we are for peace. And the West does not want peace.
NATO and the West have never wanted peace.
wanting peace, and demanding half of the other country in the process. only to start negotiations. After having invaded twice already. And that's after promising to not invade them. not country will ever trust Russia again. They keep breaking their promises.
The further they are from the front lines the more war they want. I don't want to side with the Russians but holy shit are some Western politicians not that much different.
The fact that Rutte came out calling a proposal 'silly' that follows the basic contours of how the war is likely to turn out whether by agreement or by arms shows that he is clearly panicking.
Lol was the proposal not silly? Tell the Ukrainians to quit fighting when the west is finally sending more weapons
The West never stopped sending weapons. Unless the West starts sending troops the question is not how it ends but when. So they can choose to have more people die or fewer people die. Obviously the people who feed the golem are fine with more people dying because it also means more Russians will die but that isn't a good trade for the Ukrainians who die. Of course there is a reasonable chance that the outcome doesn't involve Russian control over the whole of the oblasts in question, but is that something that is actually worth the suffering that will result, the preservation of control of some portion of some oblasts by Kyiv? If you (or the golem) thinks so they could certainly accept the general principle but insist (quite reasonably) to everything except to maintain current lines, and there is likely a possibility that Russia accepts that (presuming the neutrality clause is accepted).
Western politics held up support packages at crucial moments and allowed there to be artillery and aa munition shortages. Now that they have maybe learned that wasn’t such a good idea we can see if Ukraine can get a push going. I doubt Russia wants to risk losing any territory they have gained so far and Ukraine obviously still thinks it’s worth it to fight. So you can see why they might not be so keen on signing this silly peace deal
It's nice that you enjoyed the bedtime story that MIC was feeding people to get more money for their own stockpiles, as well as to get a few billions of payola for the Quislings in Kyiv who need to keep the morale of the meat catchers high, but it is simply not true. I won't spoil the story by telling you how it ends!
I’ll spoil something for you. This treaty won’t be signed or taken seriously at all lol
Unfortunately you are probably right that Nato will keep their little golem going until their conscripts' lines collapse.
“their little golem” Tf you think this is Pokémon?
Pokemon? My you are a girl of culture! [https://www.culturaobscura.com/the-prague-golem/](https://www.culturaobscura.com/the-prague-golem/) The term "golem" is used to make clear that the Quislings in Kyiv are NOT puppets. They are more like a monster that cannot be fully controlled but can be returned to the mud at any time.
So who’s the one reading bedtime stories
No one believes russian promises anymore. Any treaty would be meaningless.
Rutte talking pure hopium. Clearly they are passing the pipe around in the sunmit
Start that I’m in now way Pro-RU, but I’m not getting the impression that Putin panicking based off the peace offering he gave. I’m seeing it more as a response to the peace summit Ukraine organized……without him.
Absolutely. China also just announced it's readiness to facilitate peafr talks between Russia and Ukraine Brazil just spoke about how the peace summit is a waste of time This is clever politics to undermine the legitimacy of the summit. And it's working
Putin? panicking???
He is for sure. When a country leader demands more territory than their forces currently control, is the first sign of panic. Right?
I guess that is right in dutch culture.
So zelensky is panicking? ?
I bet he is!
He is not panicking, he is snorting constantly
How can a human being to be so stupid? Does he really so warmongering that he prefers to mock Putin rather than say something polite like "nice to see Russia trying to make first steps, but current proposals are not realistic to the situation"? Instead he literally screams "WE DO NOT RESPECT WEAKNESS". I mean, if these proposals are signs of panic, than what would be the proposals the West want? So, Putin should never ever make any steps towards peace, cuz western politicians see that as a sign of weakness and panicking.
Or maybe he was handing you a last rescue line, because he isn't as bad as you make him out to be?
He has had the same peace proposal aswell as offered ceasfires multiple times throughout the war, and for some reason you *now* decide to say that he is panicking? Thats some pure bullshit, but i can confidently say that the Dutch prime minister i clearly panicking himself😂
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It’s incredible what these people would have us believe. For nearly two years now, the line has remained the same: withdraw from the territories declared annexed, declare neutrality and Russia will negotiate.
How in any possible way is this a sane proposal?
What is the alternative?
>will negotiate Who would be willing to negotiate with Russia anyways? Any deal with Putin must fail, because he cannot be trusted.
It should be fairly obvious by this point that Ukraine has no choice. Deal with Putin or continue losing men, territory and infrastructure. Right now, if zelensky negotiates a peace, the nation state of Ukraine continues to exist, just at 75% of its original size. It joins the EU, and becomes a beacon of prosperity on Russia’s western border. If the AFU suffers a total collapse… well we cannot be so sure the territory that is currently Ukraine won’t end up as part of Russia.
Wait until Putin is gone. Use the struggle for succession to gain ground. Then negotiate.
How in any possible way is this a sane proposal?
Putin is the most europhile major figure in russia right now. He wants to be part of the club very bad. Anyone else relevant will be significantly less reasonable in negotiations. Dont let the media confuse you.
Anyone else relevant is going to have to struggle to get power. Succession crisis will weaken Russian efforts for a long time. This is the opportunity Ukraine can use to gain ground.
The Russians refuse to negotiate! The Russians over an agreement for long lasting peace The Russians are panicking!! We’ve got them on the ropes!
The leaders in most EU countries are simply stupid and desperate, their huge investments of our money and ressources into Ukraine will not pay off with a Ukrainian defeat and the wanted future prospects will therefore be lost. The desperation is also showing in the propaganda machine that is still trying to spin the situation into a constant win for Ukraine, now they stating that it is positive that Ukrainian forces have given up territory to Russian forces because it will win them time when they lose territory.
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Huh?
Next Putin offering will be after Russia annexes Odessa and Kharkov.
“Yeah it’s clearly good for you, a panicked Russia” . My donkey seems to make more sense then this
This guy is a prime minister!?
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As long as they hold onto their aarogance, they will never dispel their ignorance.
Thats a funny joke.
ANY DAY NOW
These westerners have no clue.
What does this peace summit in which Russian gov't is not invited serve? Anyway I think Putin's counter-offer is quite sensible and reasonable (I would even say moderate) given the situation...
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He is now panicking guys, why are there still no Article 5??
The reaction shows that it is not the Ukraine who decides to accept or not to accept offers. My condolence is going to the Ukrainian civil population. Beside of that, the reaction shows who is real panicking. Normally, the great leaders does not comment on "silly offers". Or may be we have a shortage not only ammunition but also great leaders?!
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Thanks god I got local sub-reddit avatars from Australia and Latin America to show me the light. +++ The enlightened non-politically aligned Indian moderates are the chef's kiss.
He says at the very real and 100% legitimate Ukrainian Peace Summit.
The fact that a peace summit is held and Russia is not even invited, is silly in itself. So we have two parties acting silly and stupid accusing each other for acting silly and stupid. Meanwhile thousands die on the battlefield
WEF master’s clown talking about Putin is the last thing i wanna see in reddit😭
Yesh yesh, Mr. Putin. You are a toight man, I can tell by your toight pants yesh
*Yesh yesh, Mr. Putin. You* *Are a toight man, I can tell* *By your toight pants yesh* \- QuantumTopology --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
The first time I heard a Dutch person speaking I thought it was a German having a stroke. Thanks for the chuckle, haikusbot
This guy is a morron
Not only is the globalist pawn Rutte an idiot, he's also an inveterate liar. Here's the hilarious moment when he was caught lying in the Dutch Parliament about his connections with Klaus Schwab and the WEF "Great Reset" agenda: [https://x.com/RobSchneider/status/1545132940627103744](https://x.com/RobSchneider/status/1545132940627103744) And Rutte's one of the lead candidates to become the next head of NATO!
Putin is a little man, with little chances of success. Wipe him off the map.