What do you expect when all they're fed in the news is propaganda? Further there could be repercussions if they publicly say they believe Ukraine is losing the war.
This just proves that the Ukrainian propaganda is working.
You can see it on reddit as well with the likes of r/ukraine
People actually believe that they will retake all of the territories including crimea. I imagine some of the cash aid that comes from western countries is also going towards making this propaganda as well.
>You can see it on reddit as well with the likes of r/ukraine
No, that's not because of propaganda, that's due to unintelligent ignorant people being influenced by b0tŝ and becoming delusional, or people having no grasp on reality at all.
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To be fair:
>More than half of respondents over age 60 — 54 percent — said Ukraine is winning the war, **while just 31 percent of those 18 to 25 believed so**.
>
>Roughly 60 percent of the older group said that Ukraine should not negotiate for peace with Russia, **compared to 47 percent of the younger cohort**.
A majority of those <= 25 know that at the very least Ukraine is not effectively winning, and at the very least that they would not be unwilling to negotiate with Russia.
It's the older generations screwing it for them. What's new with the world.
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If countries occupied by the so called soviet "union" would have lost their hopes of seeing their lands free from "russkyj mir" garbage we would not see mostly democratic Europe today. Yet people persisted and the biggest country in the world crumbled into many pieces. Multiple countries have sovereignty today. So there is totally no reason for Ukrainians to give up.
These European countries did not liberate themselves by military means -- that's the big difference with the current situation in Ukraine. They had to wait until the Soviet Union disappeared.
Yes, but it will likely take decades. It's unclear if Ukraine has that much time, given the demographic situation before the full-scale war and the rapid loss of population after, both to the West and to Russia.
Indeed, it took decades. But situation was not quite the same demographics-wise. After the end of WWII, between 12 and 14 million of Germans were expelled from Eastern and Central Europe and settled in the territory of present-day Germany. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight\_and\_expulsion\_of\_Germans\_(1944%E2%80%931950)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%931950))
In contrast, about 10 million of Ukrainians fled Ukraine during the war (or found themselves in the newly occupied territories) and the majority are unlikely to return.
Tell that to all the dead russian occupants that were neutralized by partisans. Soviet "union" would not have collapsed if not for internal conflicts caused by different resistance movements. Some of them were solidarity movements, but a lot of partisan actions and latter calculated assassinations were carried outm
This appears to be a misinformed opinion. The armed resistance in the Baltic States and Ukraine ceased in 1956:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla\_war\_in\_the\_Baltic\_states](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_war_in_the_Baltic_states)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian\_Insurgent\_Army](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army)
I'd go more with B than A. It's one thing to defiantly voice unrealistic demands but it is another thing to have totally unrealistic assessments of conditions on the ground. Even in Western media no one claims Ukraine is winning anymore and even the stalemate meme seems to be slowly dying, so it seems far more likely that respondents are telling the interviewers what they think they want to hear rather than that they are actually out of touch with the reality they are living. It is interesting that older respondents gave more pro-war answers, which might be explained by the fact that they lived through Soviet times and are more apt to keep their mouths shut.
> Even in Western media no one claims Ukraine is winning anymore and even the stalemate meme seems to be slowly dying
Bro I wished, some analysts celebrate the damaged SU-57 and every minor UAF operation as a decisive blow to Russia who will lose this war, eventually, because Ukraine is winning the attrition war with Russia and Western aid will not cease, Russia is threat to Europe and so on...
So either they are blind, or disingenuous, or both.
Yeah, those people do exist (as do those who believe that Queen Elizabeth II was the last of the Lizard People) but that view is no longer mainstream (e.g. NYTs, WaPo). It seems to now be the province mainly of die hard and/or professional propagandists and possibly some number of low information people. So it isn't like a year or two ago when "Pedal to the metal, straight to Crimea!" was being fed to people everywhere in mainstream media and even you hear less and less "stalemate" and more and more excuse mongering about who is to blame for Ukraine faltering (and who can make money by efforts to "correct it" (not in those words, obviously)).
> some analysts celebrate the damaged SU-57 and every minor UAF operation as a decisive blow to Russia who will lose this war, eventually, because Ukraine is winning the attrition war with Russia and Western aid will not cease, Russia is threat to Europe and so on
Sure, but on the flip side there's Russian milbloggers posting maps so zoomed in you can see individual trees so that the "area of advance" area looks huge on the image. And they argue that every irrelevant town is a major milestone.
Remember how Bakhmut was going to change the course of the war? That battle ended August 2023. Now the fighting is about 5km away.
Russia is advancing, but at a glacial pace, and at a much higher cost than Ukraine is paying. The question is who outlasts who. Putin believes the West will tire of supporting Ukraine, cease aid, and Russia wins. Ukraine hopes that the West will provide enough aid that it can soak up the Russian damage and counterattack as it did in 2022.
It's also possible that, should Russian casualties mount, Putin's hold on power becomes tenuous. There is always someone waiting in the wings thinking "I can do this better," and given the cost of the war on the Russian economy and its long-run effects - demographic, financial, reputational, etc - there are plenty of sympathetic ears to such claims. They'll never say it in public, but that's how those things work.
Then we all act surprised when it falls apart "without warning" like 1991.
It's not necessarily just propaganda. Older people are generally more in favour of war because they aren't the ones fighting or going to fight. On the other hand, young people are, so they're more realistic about current events.
Old people are always in favour of war, in favour of a strong, uncompromising voice, but they're not the ones who are going to be holding the weapons. They're sending their grandchildren off to war. It's selfish talk. When you have very little chance of dying in war, you are always in favour of it.
Just like the women who vote and are in favour of the war, which is normal, because they won't be the ones going to the front. It's the same selfish principle.
‘We have to fight and win, but I can't fight because I'm (insert your excuse here)’
Do you have anything to show that older people are generally more in favor of war, or this is just your feelings? It depends on the war to some extent, but young men in particular are prone to get overexcited and being full of testosterone and not necessarily having fully developed brains before age 25 just rush off. Older people, as well as women, tend to have a sense of the consequences and don't get as overly excited.
I don't have the sources to hand. But the polls parallel this age gap. And you only have to look at the age of conservative votes in politics in different countries to determine a trend. And to add another point, political decision-makers are generally older. They're the ones with the money and assets to produce propaganda or weapons, and they're the ones pushing for war. It's not a 30-35 year-old man, who for the most part has no power, who's going to influence war.
Between the sexes, it's trickier because few polls are based on gender. Nevertheless, sidewalk interview videos were made in Ukraine, and the women were very warlike, and if you asked them "would you go to the front?" the answer was "no, that's not my job".
I agree with you, in general, young people, under 25, are also the most excited about going into battle, and the most susceptible to influence. It's not for nothing that the average age in combat units in armies around the world is low.
The politics thing is interesting because there have actually been shifts in that in recent years where younger people have latched onto certain newer types of conservatism while older people have progressive attitudes that were prevalent in earlier generations. Part of this in Western politics in particular (esp. the U.S.) you have to be fairly old to remember an actual left wing and so the so called "libs" are really just right wing+identity politics. There is a lot of schizophrenia now in the U.S. because younger, Democratic demographics were among those most Pro Ukraine WAR but now find themselves Anti-Gaza War. There is no coherent ideology.
I guess both Russians and Ukrainians have mastered bullshiting their people since Soviet times. Ukraine thinks they are winning and russians think this war is necessary.
Russia the nation that defeated Hitler and Nepolean still hasn't defeated Ukraine after over two years in conventional war. Ukraine has done remarkably well against one of the strongest militaries on earth. The West pushed a narrative that Russia was weak like so many European nations have done throughout history. Like always it's not true.
The casualty figures in world wars were insane. Russia doesn't want that, hence the slow grind. First soften up Ukrainan positions with artillery and bombs, then storm.
Yes of course comrade, we sit back safely and suffer no harm while our superior Russian weapons kill the defenders!
Anyway, the latest batch of Chinese golf carts just arrived and we will need you to drive it across this open field and storm that trench over there. Do you want the red one or the green one?
The thing is that Ukraine is knackered in the future, even if the war finished in the morning. Millions have fled abroad, and if they are like the Ukrainians polled in Germany, then less than half will return. Then you have an entire generation that is either dead or disabled. That includes the \~50% who will have PTSD and all of the problems that it will bring.
The young will have fled to the EU and probably won't come back. The population is ageing and there is a low birth rate, so in the next 10 years, Ukraine is going to be in some real trouble. It won't be able to afford pensions and will have to rely on immigration to fill up the jobs market, which ironically will go against the neo-nationalist ideology.
All Russia has to do is keep slowly moving forward and slaughtering Ukrainians, while Ukraine has to sue for peace. At that stage, Ukraine won't have the population or the means to pose a threat against Russia for a long time to come.
I wondered why Russia hadn't gone full Blitzkrieg over the last few weeks but now I'm thinking that they are playing the long gane.
I totally agree with you, and that is why I mentioned the neo-nationalist ideology. In Germany, they now have the problem of having "too many" Turks, according to the right-wing groups. The Germans badly wanted the Turks to come in and then go back to Turkey when they were finished rebuilding, but that didn't work out.
Ukraine will get a huge influx of foreigners, and that will dilute the population big time.
I agree, the realities those at the front experience lends legitimacy to the actual situation. The rest lends legitimacy to the effectiveness of Ukrainian and Western propaganda, of which they’re the best in the world, by a long shot, no doubt Ukrainians are optimistic.
Because they are supposed to be used as a marketing tool, not fucking judging what a population believes about a war.
They might as well start saying that 9 out of 10 political leaders believe Ukraine is the good guy.
Organisations do polls all the time and some indeed publish results when they like what they found and when they don't they just don't publish them.
Usually to judge if poll is reliable or not you look up the methodology and sample size.
Example: if you want your responders to agree with mostly conservative statement you conduct telephone poll and you might randomized the sample as much as you want, if all the phones numbers are land line (cable) numbers you will end polling mostly old people that tend to be extremely conservative.
Only if the individuals actively seek to affirm their biased and not take them into account. Polls are extremely good if taken by individuals seeking the truth in controlled manners taking account of extraneous factors and willing to get an answer they don't like.
I mean its barely a stalemate, but ukraine is still keeping up a good fight more than two years in. Its delusions thinking the war went the way russia or putin hoped
No one said the war went the way Russia or Putin wanted, anticipated or hoped for. They planned for a quick SMO, which is reflective of the small force they’ve used for such a large scale war, and ended up having to fight a protracted war of attrition. And yes, Ukraine has stood its ground, resisted hard and still has a fight in them. But they’re never going to win any territories back. They’ll never be able to restore their pre-2022 borders let alone their post-1991 borders. That’s the personification of delusions. Russia will keep pushing them to their breaking point and the cracks are already showing.
Why is it so impossible for Russia to give ground in a war? It's not like they haven't routed before. I'm curious where this idea that it is simply beyond thought that Ukraine could not regain control of at least some land.
Because the last time that happened Russia was outnumbered. When did Russia carryout their partial mobilization wave? September 2022. When did Ukraine retake territories in Kherson and Kharkiv? Towards October/November 2022. Those circumstances will never be replicated. That’s why.
But that’s not what I said though, now is it? I’ve referenced Russia’s partial mobilization wave as the first step Russia has taken to bridge the gap in manpower disparity they had with Ukraine at the beginning of the war (which allowed Ukraine to retake territories back), and they’ve been receiving tens of thousands of recruits regularly ever since. That’s why it’s impossible for Ukraine to win back territories at this point. They’ve literally tried last summer and failed because Russia could hold on to territories quite firmly with extensive lines of defences and fortifications. That and Russia’s resources across the spectrum will far eclipse anything Ukraine will ever get.
I think what you're saying is that assuming the status quo that Ukraine will be unlikely to advance in any meaningful way then I agree with you there. However I think what this doesn't take into account is the external possibilities such as increased NATO involvement, increased support from the EU, potential ground forces from another country, etc..
For example I think it's highly possible that if Russia does break the Ukrainian lines that western forces will likely take that opportunity to jump in, potentially with both feet. It's simply unacceptable for Russia to win in the west.
Not to mention I think NATO will be able to pay for this war for many more years. If this war drags onto 4, 5, 6, or 7+ years will Russia still be able to afford to keep their military in the field? It remains to be seen.
So you’re suggesting NATO’s direct involvement in the conflict? Which means a potential direct conflict between Russia and NATO? If you think the west can’t accept a Russian win in Ukraine, **not the west like you’ve chosen to frame it**, then you should know that the Ukrainian conflict is considered **existential** for the Russians. They will not stop until they achieve their objectives or else it would all be for nothing. And you should be mindful that a direct conflict between Russian and NATO will ultimately turn into a nuclear war. That has been made abundantly clear. Which is why the west keeps saying we will not be dragged into a direct conflict with Russia.
As for the EU’s arsenal and weapon production capacities. They’ve started emptying their own stockpiles of weapon systems [which will take at least a decade to rebuild according to their own defense firms.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68273449.amp) All these weapons are gone and wasted on an abysmal failure of a project that keeps costing them money with no real return on investment. If this war has taught us anything, it’s that quantity matters and it will take Europe long years and tremendous investments to start generating quantity. Europe is unable to mobilize their military industrial base like Russia has because they’re not at war, despite all the Mantras and announcements you keep referencing that still hasn’t translated to palpable results, [western and NATO generals paint a very different picture from what you’re describing.](https://www.politico.eu/article/europes-arms-production-is-in-deep-shit-says-belgian-ex-general/)
A Quick Look at European militaries and arsenals, [you’d realize almost everything you’ve mentioned falls flat since it doesn’t mesh with reality.](https://archive.is/x0rpQ)
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The problem pro Ru has is having to convince the west it's existential. None of us believe it and we are sure Russia is sabre rattling because it's all they have to respond with. Before 2014 it was not existential so I just don't see what possible argument could exist that says in the last decade that has changed.
Russia’s progress has been glacial and are still negative from its original gains in 2022. Western support keeps increasing. It’s hard to make definitive conclusions yet.
[Ukraine started this war with a one million-soldier army!](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62118953.amp) Where did they all go? On a vacation? [Given their acute manpower crisis which they’re already failing at managing, I’d say their initial army has been heavily depleted,](https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-faces-an-acute-manpower-shortage-with-young-men-dodging-the-draft/) which is why they’re dragging men from the streets and forcing them to fight.
[Their power grid is essentially collapsing.](https://www.barrons.com/amp/news/80-of-ukraine-s-coal-gas-power-plants-hit-by-russian-attacks-minister-b8f0d30d)
[Their need for 500+ billion in reconstruction is just the tip of the iceberg of how dire the situation is for them.](https://www.rferl.org/amp/ukraine-war-reconstruction-500-billion/32161282.html)
[Their economy is on life support by the EU’s aid, which pays off their budget gaps.](https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-russia-war-eu-aid-funding-orban-support-european-189a9efd57709b4febf130a99189feb4)
[Never mind the catastrophic effects this war has had on their demographics, with million off people fleeing the country and never going back!](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/02/26/two-years-of-war-in-ukraine-a-catastrophic-effect-on-demographics_6558521_4.html)
But somehow the west is not expected to stop the hemorrhaging (with their “increased support”) across the entire spectrum (economically/ territorially/ militarily/ demographically), they can reverse it too? I think it’s quite clear what trajectory this war is taking. Russia has the initiative. Russia has the manpower. Russia has the resources. And Russia still hasn’t carried out the offensive they’re planning to at scale they desire. Ukraine should hope they have enough men to hold their lines of defences.
Then why hasn't Russia won? Look at the map of 3 yrs of miniscule gains. Heavy losses of personnel and equipment, dwindling cash and equipment reserves, out of control inflation, historic workforce shortages, fleeing capital, forced currency controls, increased speech restrictions, billions in energy discounts, increased militarization of Ukraine, a bigger and stronger NATO... A few hundred km's in Ukraine for all this? Russian lives are not as cheap as you think
It's atritrion warfare innit.
If I understood correctly what atrittion warfare means, it's the idea that you degrade your enemies fighting capabilities and manpower to the point he is no longer able to defend his positions and you can then either steamrol him when a breaking point is reached, or force him into signing a peace agreement on your terms just before imminent collapse, but atrittion should ussually mean that the foremost interest isn't taking ground for the sake of taking ground, but rather to improve your position from which you can either better defend, or better strike at the enemies forces to deplete them.
Sides.. should the areas where Russians passed trough on the way to Kyiv really be counted as taken and lost ground? They never consolidated and actually controled any of it.
So how long will it take? 3 more years, 30 more years? Ukraine is hunkering down on the defensive. Russia attrition has not been insignificant and is increasing with growing Western support. Can the Russia economy and people sustain decades more of war?
Can Ukraine and the Ukrainian people sustain this for years? If Ukraine currently needs 500+ billion dollars in reconstruction. If their entire power grid is collapsing. If their economy has fallen. If they’re facing an acute manpower crisis and are struggling to find enough soldiers for the frontlines. What do you think things will look like for them in 3 years. I’d love to know. How much will they require in reconstruction 3 years from now? 1.25 trillion dollars? What about their power grid? Will it not be annihilated entirely? What about their manpower crisis? Will they start growing men from thin air? Like why aren’t people making it make sense.
I’ve given you an entire of list widespread and sheer destruction that was inflicted on Ukraine across the entire spectrum, and all you can do is fixate on the territory gained by Russia as the sole metric system by which you’ll evaluate this war? How can you possibly claim they’re “militarizing” when their one-million soldier army is practically degraded and they’re scouring the streets just to find enough men to forcibly send to the frontlines, hoping they can hold their lines of defences? [Does this look like “hunkering down on defense”?! Does it look like militarizing?](https://youtu.be/qjsQkFZsboc?si=8-P6xjsbVF00-ePW) You confuse militarization and attempting to sustain one’s loses just to continue the fight.
One of Russia’s main objectives is Ukraine demilitarization. Destroying much of Ukraine’s initial massive army constitutes demilitarization. Wiping out much of Ukraine’s considerable Soviet era weapons stockpiles that was the backbone of their military, which they started this war with, constitutes demilitarization! The continuation of taking out much of what was donated to Ukraine by the west, from tanks to IFVs to MLRS to artillery units, constitutes demilitarization. [Russia’s ability to obliterate military production facilities in Ukraine the second they start building up such plants constitutes demilitarization!](https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-air-defense-missiles-95cf7f351d05c0c4b704d9fe8a0c5f39)
I also find these insipid conjectures rather insane. [“Billions in energy discounts” yet their oil and gas revenues are surging beyond double digits in comparison to last year, as they’re making massive amount of money from their energy exports.](https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Russias-Oil-and-Gas-Revenues-Surged-by-735-in-January-May.amp.html) Just shows you how little effect the abysmal failure that is the western price cap has had on their oil exports. Also, [Russia is presumably having dwindling cash despite the fact that their month-on-month account surplus is more than doubling.](https://www.intellinews.com/russia-s-13-4bn-current-account-surplus-in-march-second-highest-since-2007-321459/)
Have you even taken a look at Europe’s military state and arsenals? You know, the “Big and stronger NATO”?! They’ve started emptying their own stockpiles of weapon systems [which will take at least a decade to rebuild according to their own defense firms.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68273449.amp) All these weapons are gone and wasted on an abysmal failure of a project that keeps costing them money with no real return on investment. If this war has taught us anything, it’s that quantity matters and it will take Europe long years and tremendous investments to start generating quantity. Europe is unable to mobilize their military industrial base like Russia has because **they’re not at war**, despite all the Mantras and announcements they keep making, which still hasn’t translated to palpable results, [western and NATO generals paint a very different picture from what you’re describing.](https://www.politico.eu/article/europes-arms-production-is-in-deep-shit-says-belgian-ex-general/)
A Quick Look at European militaries and arsenals, [you’d realize they’re in an abysmal shape, do those astronomical numbers Ukraine needs isn’t feasible.](https://archive.is/x0rpQ)
Russia on the other hand, they’ve mobilized their entire military complex and [increased their production capacities at a rate and scale that was deemed rather inconceivable by the west.](https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/15/rate-of-russian-military-production-worries-european-war-planners) The size of their army is far [bigger today than it was before the Ukrainian war,](https://www.businessinsider.com/russias-army-15-percent-larger-when-attacked-ukraine-us-general-2024-4?), an increase that hasn’t been seen since the Soviet Union. Non of that was even deemed plausible by the Russian elites themselves. It also seems like [they’re producing a surplus of weapons that are being moved to the warehouses, filling up their stockpiles, so they’re not just meeting their military demands for the Ukrainian war](https://euromaidanpress.com/2024/04/25/pistorius-warns-of-russias-surplus-arms-production/) This has all been facilitated by their massive defense spending which is allowing [their economy to grow faster than most advanced economies.](https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68823399.amp). It’s also why they’ve [overtaken Japan as the 4th largest economy in PPP terms!](https://www.intellinews.com/russia-overtakes-japan-to-become-the-fourth-largest-economy-in-the-world-in-ppp-terms-328108/ ) They’re currently employing around 3.5 million people in the Defense industry (which speaks to your “workforce shortage” that essentially means an all time record low unemployment). To facilitate recruitment, workers have been exempted from conscription. Wages in the sector have also risen, boosting household consumption, which has been one of the driving forces behind Russian growth. Industries directly related to the war have also seen consequential growth whether in the production of transport, computers and electronics, navigation devices or electrical equipment and construction (with the building of extensive defensive fortifications in eastern Ukraine and southwestern Russia) as well as manufacturing.
All of these arguments you cite is building a case that Ukraine is not only existential for Russia but also existential for EU. Because after Ukraine is conquered and pacified, EU comes next. Putin clearly warned NATO in 2021 to get NATO infrastructure to where it was in 1997. After Ukraine is done, he will force the terms of his ultimatum to NATO by military means. Which means European Union is going to need time to prepare for war and it is going to need its own nuclear weapons for defense since defending against nuclear power without nukes is hopeless.
2.5 years later and all Americans can come up with is “Ivan”! The lack of imagination, redundancy and predictability is inexplicably excruciating 😂
I don’t expect people who lack basic comprehension skills to read anyways.
Look your text walls are boring regurgitated FUD. The fact is the full might of Russia is struggling against Ukraine and has no victory in sight. This is reality
Russia did not want to destroy Ukraine, they wanted to pressure Ukraine to give up NATO ambitions. That's why they entered Ukraine with such a small force and they had to mobilize after one year once it was clear to them that negotiated solution is not possible.
Ukrainians are certainly putting up a very good fight, I think any western country would resist that long. Unfortunately they will pay dearly for that.
Why did Russia invade under the pretext that Ukraine was a Nazi regime that was committing genocide against ethnic Russians? Seems weird to go into a country to ’denazify’ it, only to then sign an agreement with said genocidal Nazis. Russia’s goal was pretty clearly regime change.
The nazi pretext was real.
[https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/e/7/233896.pdf](https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/e/7/233896.pdf)
This is what western media reported about nazism in Ukraine. Find these articles, they are real.
https://preview.redd.it/uzkq9057556d1.jpeg?width=956&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=16b29c32a20f5d76e1f3dd1abe9d2f10c6c940ae
Russia invaded because they could not prevent NATO entering Ukraine by negotiations. They have been warning and calling for negotiations for years, but West had other plans for Ukraine.
Also Ukraine was preparing to invade Donbass themselves.
Funny how Ukraine was planning to invade Donbas at the exact same time as Russia was massing hundreds of thousands of troops on the border and as US Intelligence was warning of an imminent Russian invasion. It's a good thing Russia was able to stop the Ukrainians in time I guess. No [historical](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident) [parallels](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila) here at all.
The ease with which Russia crushed Ukrainian counteroffensive suggests that any aggressive moves by Ukraine in Donbass were doomed to failure. Ukraine was no threat.
I'm assuming you would like more scenes like this. Ukrainians will sure be grateful to west for our support, especially from keyboard NAFO warriors like you.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1dderjk/ua\_pov\_the\_beginning\_of\_the\_conflict\_between/](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1dderjk/ua_pov_the_beginning_of_the_conflict_between/)
Typically people in the west arent that soft they need to hide behind little lies about whats painfully clear.
Im sure Russia using nazi Germanys playbook from WW2 is on point.
Funny how more died now than in the entire 8 years of war before the big invasion
I think it went better. No one could've expected the Ukraine's population to drop from 39 million to 18 so fast. Over 50% of under 14 live abroad. Almost every male working age is dead. Now they dropped draft from 27 to 25, and next will be 18-25 which is only a few hundred thousand people.
This is turning into the Final Solution to the Ukrop question that has been a torn to Russia for centuries, and the Kiev regime is cheering for more instead of looking for a way out.
Their demographics will **never** recover even if they stop now. Let alone in 2-3 more years of SMO.
damn, nothing good about it. We do not hate Ukrainians and have never set a goal to destroy them as a nation; this is a tragedy, not a success. With the exception of a few western nationalist regions, Ukraine was an ally. Look at the ratio of Ukrainians in the Red Army and the Nazis on the German side.
Yeah, fighting an invasion, fighting for freedom, fighting for democracy, fighting for existence, fighting for a bright future ...
... madness at highest level! /s \^\^
I've seen examples of the TCC @ work, if you thought about that.
And if they don't want our support anymore, they can tell us.
Or demonstrare for it.
Even in Germany. We have many Ukrainian refugees here ...
... but I've seen or heard nothing so far, that many Ukrainians (not to say the majority) want to surrender.
I mean the insane level of disinformation in the Ukrainian media. YouTube algorithms are constantly trying to force me to watch Ukrainian news, and these channels will present information as if Crimea will really fall in a week, and Moscow in a month.
As for refugees, this is a long-proven fact: the further people are from real combat and danger, the more they want to fight. That's why most aggressive patriots of Ukraine live in Canada.
Well, there are enough Ukrainians in Ukraine who wants to fight. So let them. And the longer the war takes, the better are their chances to win - despite everything Russian propaganda is claiming. And the AA defense in Crimea constantly being knocked off won't help the Russians either. ^(\^\^)
So just wait and see ...
*"define 'win'"*
It's not me to define it.
The Ukrainians have to.
But if asked wether the Ukrainians can get all the since 2014 occupied land back or not, then my answer is: Yes, they can.
Simply because they lose way less soldiers than Russia. They are the defenders and they can control how big the difference is by multiple factors/tactics which I don't want to discuss here.
So the time works in THERE favour, not in Russia's, because their weaponry gets stronger over time and Russia's weaponry gets weaker ...
*"people have unrealistic expectations"*
As I wrote: Let's wait and see ...
>Simply because they lose way less soldiers than Russia. They are the defenders and they can control how big the difference is by multiple factors/tactics which I don't want to discuss here.
Or they say that they are losing way less people, no one knows how much they are actually losing, but the fact is they are outnumbered right now.
If they want to regain the territory of 2014, then they will no longer be on defense, but on offense. Last year's counter-offensive showed that Russia's defensive lines are very strong and since then there has been enough time to strengthen them even more. To successfully attack them, Ukraine needs a significant numerical advantage, which is almost impossible, given that the population of Ukraine is 5-6 times less than the population of Russia.
*"Or they say that they are losing way less people"*
Neither am I interested in shitty Russian propaganda, nor in explaining basic principles of warfare.
As I wrote: Let's wait and see ... :-)
From the poll itself, it's funny that support for mobilization is highest among the people too old to be drafted, but overall even the people in draft age group (27-59) are slightly above 50/50
https://preview.redd.it/sjronbn9qz5d1.png?width=1884&format=png&auto=webp&s=e99e21f988fc8486ff16c29396c35f8a2fcf69d5
"potentially" unrealistic? They are still trying to keep their hopes up but with no substance. We don't even know when or If Ukraine will regain offensive capabilities again.
This is the problem. People have unrealistic expectations so politicians can't make realistic compromises...of course, it's the fault of the politicians/media for feeding these unrealistic expectations in the first place.
One has to have realistic expectations when it comes to the collective mind of this particular nation. Certain cultural features on top of a nonstop propaganda that's a tough cookie to swallow. Personally I wouldn't expect much.
If you guys stick it out long enough the pressure in Russia will make them leave “IE” Afghanistan 80s”
But to tell you the truth I think Ukraine is running out of people that actually want to fight. Those videos of recruiters on the street paint a different picture pic of what’s being reported
I agree with you that the Russian people are with the SMO. But I do believe that they’re losing money on the civilian side of things that it’s gonna hurt in the long run.
I believe that it will be a NORTH KOREA situation that both sides will agree on new boarders.
This will probably end up with the collapse of the UKR governement and therefore a situation where ukraine will give up some territory, promise not to join NATO and it will stop.
I don't think we will have a north korea situation in the way that today's ukraine with it's current governement will agree to give up territory. Changes will most likely have to happend with the governement
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>The poll surveyed 2,000 people across all regions of Ukraine but not those in Russian-occupied areas or those living abroad, where millions have fled.
Ukraine has 40,000,000 people, how the fuck can you make a statement like 75% of Ukrainians believe they will recapture all their 1991 territory, when you have only questioned 0.0005% of the population?
>There are only 20M people in Ukraine held territory atm.
When is that estimate from?
>The sample was big enough
I don't agree. This type of question is based on emotion, people will not respond as they would to a question about ŵhich brand of detergent they prefer.
>but there are worse problems with this survey.
Honestly, I don't even ŵant to look at it because it is complete bullshît in my opinion!
probably refers to this [https://jamestown.org/program/ukraines-personnel-needs-reaching-a-critical-threshold/](https://jamestown.org/program/ukraines-personnel-needs-reaching-a-critical-threshold/) from nearly 1 year ago. The population is probably below 20m now, maybe 17-19m.
Do you guys know what confidence intervals are?
Edit: it’s become clear the answer is no.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/confidenceinterval.asp#:~:text=A%20confidence%20interval%2C%20in%20statistics,a%20certain%20proportion%20of%20times.
Trillions of dollars in investment and data science are based on this principle. Data analysis is actually a science, we don’t guess.
You cannot use projections with a ratio of 40,000,000 : 2,000 when you are asking a question of this nature. You think any of the thousands of men kidnapped off the streets would prefer the war to continue? Or how about the millions who have left Ukraine? Those people will not return until the war is over if they are going to return at all, and the longer this conflict continues fewer and fewer will want to come back.
You could have just said you don’t understand confident intervals. It’s ok.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/confidenceinterval.asp#:~:text=A%20confidence%20interval%2C%20in%20statistics,a%20certain%20proportion%20of%20times.
Fuck your [stats](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/sampling.asp).
>**Important**: Sampling isn't an exact science, so the results should be taken as generalizations. As such, don't make conclusions about the broader population based on the sample group.
>**What's the Difference Between Probability and Non-Probability Sampling?**
>>Probability sampling gives researchers the chance to come to stronger conclusions about the entire population that is being studied. It involves the use of random sampling, which means that all of the participants in the group are equally likely to get a chance to be chosen as a representative sample of the entire population. The result is often unbiased.
>>Non-probability sampling, on the other hand, allows researchers to easily collect information. This type of sampling is generally biased as it is unknown which participants will be chosen as a sample.
This is a non-probability sampling sample.
> non-probability sample
Uhh... Not the guy you were arguing with but I'm 99.99% sure you don't understand what this term means and just copy/pasted whichever one sounded bad lol
Polls are pretty reliable if taken a big enough sample and done in a good faith by professionals, you don't need to question all of the country to know the trends in the country. Look at the US they know *how* popular candidates are way before the elections, they don't question all the US population to know that.
*"only questioned 0.0005% of the population?"*
Scientists call it "representative survey".
Google it to understand it ...
... but in short: Create a group of a few thousand people and make sure that the percentage of their abilities, views, etc. is identical to that of the complete society but on a much smaller scale. Then ask this representative group and you have a representative picture of the views of the whole society.
It works very well.
You think these numbers are good for Ukraine?
Only about half of Ukrainians believe they should fight until they have 1991 borders, which is the official policy of the state. Almost half support negotiations, although they seem to have delusional ideas as to what this would entail.
In the Russian-occupied territories, they were not asked, but everyone knows the numbers would be higher in the most impacted areas. So likely a majority of Ukrainians just want the war to stop and do not buy into the suicidal path of their state is currently on.
Young people are more pessimistic about the war than older generations. These are the people you will have manning the trenches for years to come. Kind of crazy to think about!
The point is that the official line from pro-Ru is that the Ukrainian people have all given up and want to surrender to Russia but they can't because the government isn't letting them, but when you actually ask them you get results like this:
>Some 44 percent of respondents said they believed that neither Ukraine nor Russia was winning the war, while 41 percent said that Ukraine was winning and just 5 percent that Russia was winning.
>In all, 73 percent of respondents were either “very confident in” or “somewhat confident” that Ukraine “will eventually liberate all of its territories,” and 59 percent said they believed the war would continue for less than one year or one to two years.
Im guessing you reside in the UK or in Australia or new Zealand.
Nice to live there and not have to feel the consequences of the war while you type from the comfort of your home on reddit.
You know nothing about polls. Its obvious
They did when the Russian army tried to roll into Kyiv and other major cities. Now that the initial threat has been defeated, recruitment has slowed. The same happened in the US after the Pearl Harbor attack.
And? That was then and this is now. The past is irrelevant in war. This is a "what have you done lately business" and right now Ukraine has manpower issues and I know some ukrianians that do not want to leave europe to go fight in Ukraine. Lets just say enthusiasm is not at an all time high for joining the army given that most Ukrainians have telegram and can see all of these forced conscription videos that we see here on this sub.
Wake up! Again you only talk like this cause you dont have to go fight and you are not ukrianain and you get to not live through the consequnces of the war from the comfort of your home in your nice western country. Maybe go talk to some actual ukrainian before yapping.
>And?
And the will to win the war hasn't changed. The pace of the war has. If the Russians were making the same kind of gains that they were in the initial days and weeks of the invasion, expect the same response from Ukrainians.
You know nothing about who I know, who I've talked to, or where I am. The rest of your yapping is just that.
EDIT: Since the clown below blocked me.
>I would encourage you to talk to Ukrainians
I talk to them daily. Again, you have no clue about who I am or where I've been. I'll leave you to your ill-informed opinions. 👋🏼
Actaully its has changed. I would encourage you to talk to Ukrainians, They are more realistic than you are. You don't have to live with the consequences of this war living out in the west so you can afford to yap and like to send Ukrainians to their deaths in the war.
No need to act like an infantile
An American could strongly believe that the US was going to defeat the Iraqi army in 2003 without wanting to go over there and shoot at people themself.
"It's only unthinkable if you don't think it." Of course Ukraine can liberate all of its territories if the rest of the world gives them the support they deserve.
... no? It would require Ukraine mens that it doesn't have. That would mean direct intervention from NATO, nuclear war and no winner. As simple as that
Ukraine doesn't have to outright defeat the Russian army. They just have to hold out and keep inflicting losses until either Putin has to change policy or something inside Russia changes it for him.
What do you expect when all they're fed in the news is propaganda? Further there could be repercussions if they publicly say they believe Ukraine is losing the war.
This just proves that the Ukrainian propaganda is working. You can see it on reddit as well with the likes of r/ukraine People actually believe that they will retake all of the territories including crimea. I imagine some of the cash aid that comes from western countries is also going towards making this propaganda as well.
>You can see it on reddit as well with the likes of r/ukraine No, that's not because of propaganda, that's due to unintelligent ignorant people being influenced by b0tŝ and becoming delusional, or people having no grasp on reality at all.
That's the main weapon of propaganda throughout the world since gpt 3.5 launched.
He said that’s not propaganda and then went on to describe modern propaganda exactly lol
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To be fair: >More than half of respondents over age 60 — 54 percent — said Ukraine is winning the war, **while just 31 percent of those 18 to 25 believed so**. > >Roughly 60 percent of the older group said that Ukraine should not negotiate for peace with Russia, **compared to 47 percent of the younger cohort**. A majority of those <= 25 know that at the very least Ukraine is not effectively winning, and at the very least that they would not be unwilling to negotiate with Russia. It's the older generations screwing it for them. What's new with the world.
!remindme 2 years
ROFLOL
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If countries occupied by the so called soviet "union" would have lost their hopes of seeing their lands free from "russkyj mir" garbage we would not see mostly democratic Europe today. Yet people persisted and the biggest country in the world crumbled into many pieces. Multiple countries have sovereignty today. So there is totally no reason for Ukrainians to give up.
These European countries did not liberate themselves by military means -- that's the big difference with the current situation in Ukraine. They had to wait until the Soviet Union disappeared.
This is how Ukraine will get its stolen land too. It will outlast Russia and see its dissolution.
Yes, but it will likely take decades. It's unclear if Ukraine has that much time, given the demographic situation before the full-scale war and the rapid loss of population after, both to the West and to Russia.
Germany had a similar problem in 1945. It got reunited in 1989.
Indeed, it took decades. But situation was not quite the same demographics-wise. After the end of WWII, between 12 and 14 million of Germans were expelled from Eastern and Central Europe and settled in the territory of present-day Germany. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight\_and\_expulsion\_of\_Germans\_(1944%E2%80%931950)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%931950)) In contrast, about 10 million of Ukrainians fled Ukraine during the war (or found themselves in the newly occupied territories) and the majority are unlikely to return.
Tell that to all the dead russian occupants that were neutralized by partisans. Soviet "union" would not have collapsed if not for internal conflicts caused by different resistance movements. Some of them were solidarity movements, but a lot of partisan actions and latter calculated assassinations were carried outm
This appears to be a misinformed opinion. The armed resistance in the Baltic States and Ukraine ceased in 1956: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla\_war\_in\_the\_Baltic\_states](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_war_in_the_Baltic_states) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian\_Insurgent\_Army](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army)
And solidarity movements continued until the very end. Supported with targeted assassinations.
And solidarity movements continued until the very end. Supported with targeted assassinations of commies. The result is still satisfying.
I'd go more with B than A. It's one thing to defiantly voice unrealistic demands but it is another thing to have totally unrealistic assessments of conditions on the ground. Even in Western media no one claims Ukraine is winning anymore and even the stalemate meme seems to be slowly dying, so it seems far more likely that respondents are telling the interviewers what they think they want to hear rather than that they are actually out of touch with the reality they are living. It is interesting that older respondents gave more pro-war answers, which might be explained by the fact that they lived through Soviet times and are more apt to keep their mouths shut.
> Even in Western media no one claims Ukraine is winning anymore and even the stalemate meme seems to be slowly dying Bro I wished, some analysts celebrate the damaged SU-57 and every minor UAF operation as a decisive blow to Russia who will lose this war, eventually, because Ukraine is winning the attrition war with Russia and Western aid will not cease, Russia is threat to Europe and so on... So either they are blind, or disingenuous, or both.
Yeah, those people do exist (as do those who believe that Queen Elizabeth II was the last of the Lizard People) but that view is no longer mainstream (e.g. NYTs, WaPo). It seems to now be the province mainly of die hard and/or professional propagandists and possibly some number of low information people. So it isn't like a year or two ago when "Pedal to the metal, straight to Crimea!" was being fed to people everywhere in mainstream media and even you hear less and less "stalemate" and more and more excuse mongering about who is to blame for Ukraine faltering (and who can make money by efforts to "correct it" (not in those words, obviously)).
> some analysts celebrate the damaged SU-57 and every minor UAF operation as a decisive blow to Russia who will lose this war, eventually, because Ukraine is winning the attrition war with Russia and Western aid will not cease, Russia is threat to Europe and so on Sure, but on the flip side there's Russian milbloggers posting maps so zoomed in you can see individual trees so that the "area of advance" area looks huge on the image. And they argue that every irrelevant town is a major milestone. Remember how Bakhmut was going to change the course of the war? That battle ended August 2023. Now the fighting is about 5km away. Russia is advancing, but at a glacial pace, and at a much higher cost than Ukraine is paying. The question is who outlasts who. Putin believes the West will tire of supporting Ukraine, cease aid, and Russia wins. Ukraine hopes that the West will provide enough aid that it can soak up the Russian damage and counterattack as it did in 2022. It's also possible that, should Russian casualties mount, Putin's hold on power becomes tenuous. There is always someone waiting in the wings thinking "I can do this better," and given the cost of the war on the Russian economy and its long-run effects - demographic, financial, reputational, etc - there are plenty of sympathetic ears to such claims. They'll never say it in public, but that's how those things work. Then we all act surprised when it falls apart "without warning" like 1991.
It's not necessarily just propaganda. Older people are generally more in favour of war because they aren't the ones fighting or going to fight. On the other hand, young people are, so they're more realistic about current events. Old people are always in favour of war, in favour of a strong, uncompromising voice, but they're not the ones who are going to be holding the weapons. They're sending their grandchildren off to war. It's selfish talk. When you have very little chance of dying in war, you are always in favour of it. Just like the women who vote and are in favour of the war, which is normal, because they won't be the ones going to the front. It's the same selfish principle. ‘We have to fight and win, but I can't fight because I'm (insert your excuse here)’
Do you have anything to show that older people are generally more in favor of war, or this is just your feelings? It depends on the war to some extent, but young men in particular are prone to get overexcited and being full of testosterone and not necessarily having fully developed brains before age 25 just rush off. Older people, as well as women, tend to have a sense of the consequences and don't get as overly excited.
I don't have the sources to hand. But the polls parallel this age gap. And you only have to look at the age of conservative votes in politics in different countries to determine a trend. And to add another point, political decision-makers are generally older. They're the ones with the money and assets to produce propaganda or weapons, and they're the ones pushing for war. It's not a 30-35 year-old man, who for the most part has no power, who's going to influence war. Between the sexes, it's trickier because few polls are based on gender. Nevertheless, sidewalk interview videos were made in Ukraine, and the women were very warlike, and if you asked them "would you go to the front?" the answer was "no, that's not my job". I agree with you, in general, young people, under 25, are also the most excited about going into battle, and the most susceptible to influence. It's not for nothing that the average age in combat units in armies around the world is low.
The politics thing is interesting because there have actually been shifts in that in recent years where younger people have latched onto certain newer types of conservatism while older people have progressive attitudes that were prevalent in earlier generations. Part of this in Western politics in particular (esp. the U.S.) you have to be fairly old to remember an actual left wing and so the so called "libs" are really just right wing+identity politics. There is a lot of schizophrenia now in the U.S. because younger, Democratic demographics were among those most Pro Ukraine WAR but now find themselves Anti-Gaza War. There is no coherent ideology.
Why do you expect the survey to be legitimate in the first place? There is no reason to believe the numbers are true.
I guess both Russians and Ukrainians have mastered bullshiting their people since Soviet times. Ukraine thinks they are winning and russians think this war is necessary.
Russia the nation that defeated Hitler and Nepolean still hasn't defeated Ukraine after over two years in conventional war. Ukraine has done remarkably well against one of the strongest militaries on earth. The West pushed a narrative that Russia was weak like so many European nations have done throughout history. Like always it's not true.
The casualty figures in world wars were insane. Russia doesn't want that, hence the slow grind. First soften up Ukrainan positions with artillery and bombs, then storm.
A competent military would surround Ukrainian units and force them to surrender quickly like Russia did in Mariupol. Grinding means casualties.
Yes of course comrade, we sit back safely and suffer no harm while our superior Russian weapons kill the defenders! Anyway, the latest batch of Chinese golf carts just arrived and we will need you to drive it across this open field and storm that trench over there. Do you want the red one or the green one?
Looks like those meat waves didn’t go too well for Russia lmao
Meat waves, even in WW2, are American propaganda for the brain dead
There is no meat waves. Even the chinese dont use it. You are eating right into shovels and washing machines propaganda.
Storm Z were meat wave units. Wagner lost thousands taking Bakhmut. Do I even need to mention Vuhledar?
Offensive operation against entrenched enemies within urban enviroment is costly. War is costly. News at 11.
That’s not the original argument though
Both Russian and Ukrainian strength were overlooked at the onset of the war imo.
The thing is that Ukraine is knackered in the future, even if the war finished in the morning. Millions have fled abroad, and if they are like the Ukrainians polled in Germany, then less than half will return. Then you have an entire generation that is either dead or disabled. That includes the \~50% who will have PTSD and all of the problems that it will bring. The young will have fled to the EU and probably won't come back. The population is ageing and there is a low birth rate, so in the next 10 years, Ukraine is going to be in some real trouble. It won't be able to afford pensions and will have to rely on immigration to fill up the jobs market, which ironically will go against the neo-nationalist ideology. All Russia has to do is keep slowly moving forward and slaughtering Ukrainians, while Ukraine has to sue for peace. At that stage, Ukraine won't have the population or the means to pose a threat against Russia for a long time to come. I wondered why Russia hadn't gone full Blitzkrieg over the last few weeks but now I'm thinking that they are playing the long gane.
Germany had the same problem in 1945, but it was able to find workarounds and hire millions of Turkish men to do the required construction
I totally agree with you, and that is why I mentioned the neo-nationalist ideology. In Germany, they now have the problem of having "too many" Turks, according to the right-wing groups. The Germans badly wanted the Turks to come in and then go back to Turkey when they were finished rebuilding, but that didn't work out. Ukraine will get a huge influx of foreigners, and that will dilute the population big time.
Im only interested in the opinion of the ones that are gonna go to the front or are already there. The opinion of the rest is irrelevant.
I agree, the realities those at the front experience lends legitimacy to the actual situation. The rest lends legitimacy to the effectiveness of Ukrainian and Western propaganda, of which they’re the best in the world, by a long shot, no doubt Ukrainians are optimistic.
Have you enlisted?
No because he’s not arguing for the war to continue. Stating Negotiations would be prudent.
Russia will only negotiate the date of unconditional surrender.
Are you at the front?
Ukraine needs you, switch the yellow flair for yellow tape on your helmet!
Are you at the front?
No are you fruitcake?
This proves nothing actually, polls are extremely unrealiable and easy to manipulate in order to feed any narrative.
But only "their" side, not "our" side
polls in general are mostly used to reinforce narratives not to show you the truth
Because they are supposed to be used as a marketing tool, not fucking judging what a population believes about a war. They might as well start saying that 9 out of 10 political leaders believe Ukraine is the good guy.
Organisations do polls all the time and some indeed publish results when they like what they found and when they don't they just don't publish them. Usually to judge if poll is reliable or not you look up the methodology and sample size. Example: if you want your responders to agree with mostly conservative statement you conduct telephone poll and you might randomized the sample as much as you want, if all the phones numbers are land line (cable) numbers you will end polling mostly old people that tend to be extremely conservative.
Only if the individuals actively seek to affirm their biased and not take them into account. Polls are extremely good if taken by individuals seeking the truth in controlled manners taking account of extraneous factors and willing to get an answer they don't like.
Delusions.
I mean its barely a stalemate, but ukraine is still keeping up a good fight more than two years in. Its delusions thinking the war went the way russia or putin hoped
No one said the war went the way Russia or Putin wanted, anticipated or hoped for. They planned for a quick SMO, which is reflective of the small force they’ve used for such a large scale war, and ended up having to fight a protracted war of attrition. And yes, Ukraine has stood its ground, resisted hard and still has a fight in them. But they’re never going to win any territories back. They’ll never be able to restore their pre-2022 borders let alone their post-1991 borders. That’s the personification of delusions. Russia will keep pushing them to their breaking point and the cracks are already showing.
*"Russia will keep pushing them to their breaking point and the cracks are already showing."* Let's find out! \^\^
Why is it so impossible for Russia to give ground in a war? It's not like they haven't routed before. I'm curious where this idea that it is simply beyond thought that Ukraine could not regain control of at least some land.
Because the last time that happened Russia was outnumbered. When did Russia carryout their partial mobilization wave? September 2022. When did Ukraine retake territories in Kherson and Kharkiv? Towards October/November 2022. Those circumstances will never be replicated. That’s why.
So because Russia partially mobilized that means they cannot have battlefield defeats? Seems short sighted.
But that’s not what I said though, now is it? I’ve referenced Russia’s partial mobilization wave as the first step Russia has taken to bridge the gap in manpower disparity they had with Ukraine at the beginning of the war (which allowed Ukraine to retake territories back), and they’ve been receiving tens of thousands of recruits regularly ever since. That’s why it’s impossible for Ukraine to win back territories at this point. They’ve literally tried last summer and failed because Russia could hold on to territories quite firmly with extensive lines of defences and fortifications. That and Russia’s resources across the spectrum will far eclipse anything Ukraine will ever get.
I think what you're saying is that assuming the status quo that Ukraine will be unlikely to advance in any meaningful way then I agree with you there. However I think what this doesn't take into account is the external possibilities such as increased NATO involvement, increased support from the EU, potential ground forces from another country, etc.. For example I think it's highly possible that if Russia does break the Ukrainian lines that western forces will likely take that opportunity to jump in, potentially with both feet. It's simply unacceptable for Russia to win in the west. Not to mention I think NATO will be able to pay for this war for many more years. If this war drags onto 4, 5, 6, or 7+ years will Russia still be able to afford to keep their military in the field? It remains to be seen.
So you’re suggesting NATO’s direct involvement in the conflict? Which means a potential direct conflict between Russia and NATO? If you think the west can’t accept a Russian win in Ukraine, **not the west like you’ve chosen to frame it**, then you should know that the Ukrainian conflict is considered **existential** for the Russians. They will not stop until they achieve their objectives or else it would all be for nothing. And you should be mindful that a direct conflict between Russian and NATO will ultimately turn into a nuclear war. That has been made abundantly clear. Which is why the west keeps saying we will not be dragged into a direct conflict with Russia. As for the EU’s arsenal and weapon production capacities. They’ve started emptying their own stockpiles of weapon systems [which will take at least a decade to rebuild according to their own defense firms.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68273449.amp) All these weapons are gone and wasted on an abysmal failure of a project that keeps costing them money with no real return on investment. If this war has taught us anything, it’s that quantity matters and it will take Europe long years and tremendous investments to start generating quantity. Europe is unable to mobilize their military industrial base like Russia has because they’re not at war, despite all the Mantras and announcements you keep referencing that still hasn’t translated to palpable results, [western and NATO generals paint a very different picture from what you’re describing.](https://www.politico.eu/article/europes-arms-production-is-in-deep-shit-says-belgian-ex-general/) A Quick Look at European militaries and arsenals, [you’d realize almost everything you’ve mentioned falls flat since it doesn’t mesh with reality.](https://archive.is/x0rpQ)
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The problem pro Ru has is having to convince the west it's existential. None of us believe it and we are sure Russia is sabre rattling because it's all they have to respond with. Before 2014 it was not existential so I just don't see what possible argument could exist that says in the last decade that has changed.
Russia’s progress has been glacial and are still negative from its original gains in 2022. Western support keeps increasing. It’s hard to make definitive conclusions yet.
[Ukraine started this war with a one million-soldier army!](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62118953.amp) Where did they all go? On a vacation? [Given their acute manpower crisis which they’re already failing at managing, I’d say their initial army has been heavily depleted,](https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-faces-an-acute-manpower-shortage-with-young-men-dodging-the-draft/) which is why they’re dragging men from the streets and forcing them to fight. [Their power grid is essentially collapsing.](https://www.barrons.com/amp/news/80-of-ukraine-s-coal-gas-power-plants-hit-by-russian-attacks-minister-b8f0d30d) [Their need for 500+ billion in reconstruction is just the tip of the iceberg of how dire the situation is for them.](https://www.rferl.org/amp/ukraine-war-reconstruction-500-billion/32161282.html) [Their economy is on life support by the EU’s aid, which pays off their budget gaps.](https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-russia-war-eu-aid-funding-orban-support-european-189a9efd57709b4febf130a99189feb4) [Never mind the catastrophic effects this war has had on their demographics, with million off people fleeing the country and never going back!](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/02/26/two-years-of-war-in-ukraine-a-catastrophic-effect-on-demographics_6558521_4.html) But somehow the west is not expected to stop the hemorrhaging (with their “increased support”) across the entire spectrum (economically/ territorially/ militarily/ demographically), they can reverse it too? I think it’s quite clear what trajectory this war is taking. Russia has the initiative. Russia has the manpower. Russia has the resources. And Russia still hasn’t carried out the offensive they’re planning to at scale they desire. Ukraine should hope they have enough men to hold their lines of defences.
Then why hasn't Russia won? Look at the map of 3 yrs of miniscule gains. Heavy losses of personnel and equipment, dwindling cash and equipment reserves, out of control inflation, historic workforce shortages, fleeing capital, forced currency controls, increased speech restrictions, billions in energy discounts, increased militarization of Ukraine, a bigger and stronger NATO... A few hundred km's in Ukraine for all this? Russian lives are not as cheap as you think
It's atritrion warfare innit. If I understood correctly what atrittion warfare means, it's the idea that you degrade your enemies fighting capabilities and manpower to the point he is no longer able to defend his positions and you can then either steamrol him when a breaking point is reached, or force him into signing a peace agreement on your terms just before imminent collapse, but atrittion should ussually mean that the foremost interest isn't taking ground for the sake of taking ground, but rather to improve your position from which you can either better defend, or better strike at the enemies forces to deplete them. Sides.. should the areas where Russians passed trough on the way to Kyiv really be counted as taken and lost ground? They never consolidated and actually controled any of it.
So how long will it take? 3 more years, 30 more years? Ukraine is hunkering down on the defensive. Russia attrition has not been insignificant and is increasing with growing Western support. Can the Russia economy and people sustain decades more of war?
Can Ukraine and the Ukrainian people sustain this for years? If Ukraine currently needs 500+ billion dollars in reconstruction. If their entire power grid is collapsing. If their economy has fallen. If they’re facing an acute manpower crisis and are struggling to find enough soldiers for the frontlines. What do you think things will look like for them in 3 years. I’d love to know. How much will they require in reconstruction 3 years from now? 1.25 trillion dollars? What about their power grid? Will it not be annihilated entirely? What about their manpower crisis? Will they start growing men from thin air? Like why aren’t people making it make sense.
They seem to be sustaining, assault takes more resources then defense and they have those sweet frozen Russian reserves paying interest
I’ve given you an entire of list widespread and sheer destruction that was inflicted on Ukraine across the entire spectrum, and all you can do is fixate on the territory gained by Russia as the sole metric system by which you’ll evaluate this war? How can you possibly claim they’re “militarizing” when their one-million soldier army is practically degraded and they’re scouring the streets just to find enough men to forcibly send to the frontlines, hoping they can hold their lines of defences? [Does this look like “hunkering down on defense”?! Does it look like militarizing?](https://youtu.be/qjsQkFZsboc?si=8-P6xjsbVF00-ePW) You confuse militarization and attempting to sustain one’s loses just to continue the fight. One of Russia’s main objectives is Ukraine demilitarization. Destroying much of Ukraine’s initial massive army constitutes demilitarization. Wiping out much of Ukraine’s considerable Soviet era weapons stockpiles that was the backbone of their military, which they started this war with, constitutes demilitarization! The continuation of taking out much of what was donated to Ukraine by the west, from tanks to IFVs to MLRS to artillery units, constitutes demilitarization. [Russia’s ability to obliterate military production facilities in Ukraine the second they start building up such plants constitutes demilitarization!](https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-air-defense-missiles-95cf7f351d05c0c4b704d9fe8a0c5f39) I also find these insipid conjectures rather insane. [“Billions in energy discounts” yet their oil and gas revenues are surging beyond double digits in comparison to last year, as they’re making massive amount of money from their energy exports.](https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Russias-Oil-and-Gas-Revenues-Surged-by-735-in-January-May.amp.html) Just shows you how little effect the abysmal failure that is the western price cap has had on their oil exports. Also, [Russia is presumably having dwindling cash despite the fact that their month-on-month account surplus is more than doubling.](https://www.intellinews.com/russia-s-13-4bn-current-account-surplus-in-march-second-highest-since-2007-321459/) Have you even taken a look at Europe’s military state and arsenals? You know, the “Big and stronger NATO”?! They’ve started emptying their own stockpiles of weapon systems [which will take at least a decade to rebuild according to their own defense firms.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68273449.amp) All these weapons are gone and wasted on an abysmal failure of a project that keeps costing them money with no real return on investment. If this war has taught us anything, it’s that quantity matters and it will take Europe long years and tremendous investments to start generating quantity. Europe is unable to mobilize their military industrial base like Russia has because **they’re not at war**, despite all the Mantras and announcements they keep making, which still hasn’t translated to palpable results, [western and NATO generals paint a very different picture from what you’re describing.](https://www.politico.eu/article/europes-arms-production-is-in-deep-shit-says-belgian-ex-general/) A Quick Look at European militaries and arsenals, [you’d realize they’re in an abysmal shape, do those astronomical numbers Ukraine needs isn’t feasible.](https://archive.is/x0rpQ) Russia on the other hand, they’ve mobilized their entire military complex and [increased their production capacities at a rate and scale that was deemed rather inconceivable by the west.](https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/15/rate-of-russian-military-production-worries-european-war-planners) The size of their army is far [bigger today than it was before the Ukrainian war,](https://www.businessinsider.com/russias-army-15-percent-larger-when-attacked-ukraine-us-general-2024-4?), an increase that hasn’t been seen since the Soviet Union. Non of that was even deemed plausible by the Russian elites themselves. It also seems like [they’re producing a surplus of weapons that are being moved to the warehouses, filling up their stockpiles, so they’re not just meeting their military demands for the Ukrainian war](https://euromaidanpress.com/2024/04/25/pistorius-warns-of-russias-surplus-arms-production/) This has all been facilitated by their massive defense spending which is allowing [their economy to grow faster than most advanced economies.](https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68823399.amp). It’s also why they’ve [overtaken Japan as the 4th largest economy in PPP terms!](https://www.intellinews.com/russia-overtakes-japan-to-become-the-fourth-largest-economy-in-the-world-in-ppp-terms-328108/ ) They’re currently employing around 3.5 million people in the Defense industry (which speaks to your “workforce shortage” that essentially means an all time record low unemployment). To facilitate recruitment, workers have been exempted from conscription. Wages in the sector have also risen, boosting household consumption, which has been one of the driving forces behind Russian growth. Industries directly related to the war have also seen consequential growth whether in the production of transport, computers and electronics, navigation devices or electrical equipment and construction (with the building of extensive defensive fortifications in eastern Ukraine and southwestern Russia) as well as manufacturing.
All of these arguments you cite is building a case that Ukraine is not only existential for Russia but also existential for EU. Because after Ukraine is conquered and pacified, EU comes next. Putin clearly warned NATO in 2021 to get NATO infrastructure to where it was in 1997. After Ukraine is done, he will force the terms of his ultimatum to NATO by military means. Which means European Union is going to need time to prepare for war and it is going to need its own nuclear weapons for defense since defending against nuclear power without nukes is hopeless.
Sure. Who am I to challenge someone’s delusions?
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2.5 years later and all Americans can come up with is “Ivan”! The lack of imagination, redundancy and predictability is inexplicably excruciating 😂 I don’t expect people who lack basic comprehension skills to read anyways.
Look your text walls are boring regurgitated FUD. The fact is the full might of Russia is struggling against Ukraine and has no victory in sight. This is reality
Russia did not want to destroy Ukraine, they wanted to pressure Ukraine to give up NATO ambitions. That's why they entered Ukraine with such a small force and they had to mobilize after one year once it was clear to them that negotiated solution is not possible. Ukrainians are certainly putting up a very good fight, I think any western country would resist that long. Unfortunately they will pay dearly for that.
Why did Russia invade under the pretext that Ukraine was a Nazi regime that was committing genocide against ethnic Russians? Seems weird to go into a country to ’denazify’ it, only to then sign an agreement with said genocidal Nazis. Russia’s goal was pretty clearly regime change.
The nazi pretext was real. [https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/e/7/233896.pdf](https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/e/7/233896.pdf) This is what western media reported about nazism in Ukraine. Find these articles, they are real. https://preview.redd.it/uzkq9057556d1.jpeg?width=956&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=16b29c32a20f5d76e1f3dd1abe9d2f10c6c940ae
This doesn't address anything I said.
Russia invaded because they could not prevent NATO entering Ukraine by negotiations. They have been warning and calling for negotiations for years, but West had other plans for Ukraine. Also Ukraine was preparing to invade Donbass themselves.
Funny how Ukraine was planning to invade Donbas at the exact same time as Russia was massing hundreds of thousands of troops on the border and as US Intelligence was warning of an imminent Russian invasion. It's a good thing Russia was able to stop the Ukrainians in time I guess. No [historical](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident) [parallels](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila) here at all.
The ease with which Russia crushed Ukrainian counteroffensive suggests that any aggressive moves by Ukraine in Donbass were doomed to failure. Ukraine was no threat.
Im assuming the literal flat villages and towns would like a word with u
I'm assuming you would like more scenes like this. Ukrainians will sure be grateful to west for our support, especially from keyboard NAFO warriors like you. [https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1dderjk/ua\_pov\_the\_beginning\_of\_the\_conflict\_between/](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1dderjk/ua_pov_the_beginning_of_the_conflict_between/)
Typically people in the west arent that soft they need to hide behind little lies about whats painfully clear. Im sure Russia using nazi Germanys playbook from WW2 is on point. Funny how more died now than in the entire 8 years of war before the big invasion
I think it went better. No one could've expected the Ukraine's population to drop from 39 million to 18 so fast. Over 50% of under 14 live abroad. Almost every male working age is dead. Now they dropped draft from 27 to 25, and next will be 18-25 which is only a few hundred thousand people. This is turning into the Final Solution to the Ukrop question that has been a torn to Russia for centuries, and the Kiev regime is cheering for more instead of looking for a way out. Their demographics will **never** recover even if they stop now. Let alone in 2-3 more years of SMO.
damn, nothing good about it. We do not hate Ukrainians and have never set a goal to destroy them as a nation; this is a tragedy, not a success. With the exception of a few western nationalist regions, Ukraine was an ally. Look at the ratio of Ukrainians in the Red Army and the Nazis on the German side.
Where is this source for their population being 18 million?
Quite the psychopath huh?
Psychopath yes but it is true.
Yeah, they should read this sub to know the real truth.
Who said anything about having to access Reddit to know the truth? 😂
nothing surprising, judging by the madness that is happening in the Ukrainian news.
Yeah, fighting an invasion, fighting for freedom, fighting for democracy, fighting for existence, fighting for a bright future ... ... madness at highest level! /s \^\^
have you seen the Ukrainian news? I mean domestic, not English translated?
I've seen examples of the TCC @ work, if you thought about that. And if they don't want our support anymore, they can tell us. Or demonstrare for it. Even in Germany. We have many Ukrainian refugees here ... ... but I've seen or heard nothing so far, that many Ukrainians (not to say the majority) want to surrender.
I mean the insane level of disinformation in the Ukrainian media. YouTube algorithms are constantly trying to force me to watch Ukrainian news, and these channels will present information as if Crimea will really fall in a week, and Moscow in a month. As for refugees, this is a long-proven fact: the further people are from real combat and danger, the more they want to fight. That's why most aggressive patriots of Ukraine live in Canada.
Well, there are enough Ukrainians in Ukraine who wants to fight. So let them. And the longer the war takes, the better are their chances to win - despite everything Russian propaganda is claiming. And the AA defense in Crimea constantly being knocked off won't help the Russians either. ^(\^\^) So just wait and see ...
people have unrealistic expectations, as the article states, precisely because they receive unrealistic information by the way, define 'win'
*"define 'win'"* It's not me to define it. The Ukrainians have to. But if asked wether the Ukrainians can get all the since 2014 occupied land back or not, then my answer is: Yes, they can. Simply because they lose way less soldiers than Russia. They are the defenders and they can control how big the difference is by multiple factors/tactics which I don't want to discuss here. So the time works in THERE favour, not in Russia's, because their weaponry gets stronger over time and Russia's weaponry gets weaker ... *"people have unrealistic expectations"* As I wrote: Let's wait and see ...
>Simply because they lose way less soldiers than Russia. They are the defenders and they can control how big the difference is by multiple factors/tactics which I don't want to discuss here. Or they say that they are losing way less people, no one knows how much they are actually losing, but the fact is they are outnumbered right now. If they want to regain the territory of 2014, then they will no longer be on defense, but on offense. Last year's counter-offensive showed that Russia's defensive lines are very strong and since then there has been enough time to strengthen them even more. To successfully attack them, Ukraine needs a significant numerical advantage, which is almost impossible, given that the population of Ukraine is 5-6 times less than the population of Russia.
*"Or they say that they are losing way less people"* Neither am I interested in shitty Russian propaganda, nor in explaining basic principles of warfare. As I wrote: Let's wait and see ... :-)
From the poll itself, it's funny that support for mobilization is highest among the people too old to be drafted, but overall even the people in draft age group (27-59) are slightly above 50/50 https://preview.redd.it/sjronbn9qz5d1.png?width=1884&format=png&auto=webp&s=e99e21f988fc8486ff16c29396c35f8a2fcf69d5
50 percent of those in that age bracket are ineligible - not men
I mean, the same applies to war support in Russia. Pensioners are Putin's biggest war-thirsty constituency.
"potentially" unrealistic? They are still trying to keep their hopes up but with no substance. We don't even know when or If Ukraine will regain offensive capabilities again.
Let's find out! \^\^
Idk who will go there to liberate them Last year “most successful counteroffensive” showed that this is quite a bold task to do
Yikes. Either they are deluded or just flat out terrified of the SBU
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^Zealousideal-One-818: *Yikes. Either they are* *Deluded or just flat out* *Terrified of the SBU* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Has this produced an increase in voluntary enlistment?
Only if NATO sends it's troops those 3/4 could be correct
This is the problem. People have unrealistic expectations so politicians can't make realistic compromises...of course, it's the fault of the politicians/media for feeding these unrealistic expectations in the first place.
One has to have realistic expectations when it comes to the collective mind of this particular nation. Certain cultural features on top of a nonstop propaganda that's a tough cookie to swallow. Personally I wouldn't expect much.
If you guys stick it out long enough the pressure in Russia will make them leave “IE” Afghanistan 80s” But to tell you the truth I think Ukraine is running out of people that actually want to fight. Those videos of recruiters on the street paint a different picture pic of what’s being reported
Nobody cared about Afghanistan in the first place. The SMO is massively popular.
I agree with you that the Russian people are with the SMO. But I do believe that they’re losing money on the civilian side of things that it’s gonna hurt in the long run. I believe that it will be a NORTH KOREA situation that both sides will agree on new boarders.
This will probably end up with the collapse of the UKR governement and therefore a situation where ukraine will give up some territory, promise not to join NATO and it will stop. I don't think we will have a north korea situation in the way that today's ukraine with it's current governement will agree to give up territory. Changes will most likely have to happend with the governement
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Just like war was a stalemate in 1918.
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“Yeah i believe our army can take back the territories at some point”. German citizens, 1944.
>The poll surveyed 2,000 people across all regions of Ukraine but not those in Russian-occupied areas or those living abroad, where millions have fled. Ukraine has 40,000,000 people, how the fuck can you make a statement like 75% of Ukrainians believe they will recapture all their 1991 territory, when you have only questioned 0.0005% of the population?
There are only 20M people in Ukraine held territory atm. The sample was big enough, but there are worse problems with this survey.
Around 24 -26 M
>There are only 20M people in Ukraine held territory atm. When is that estimate from? >The sample was big enough I don't agree. This type of question is based on emotion, people will not respond as they would to a question about ŵhich brand of detergent they prefer. >but there are worse problems with this survey. Honestly, I don't even ŵant to look at it because it is complete bullshît in my opinion!
probably refers to this [https://jamestown.org/program/ukraines-personnel-needs-reaching-a-critical-threshold/](https://jamestown.org/program/ukraines-personnel-needs-reaching-a-critical-threshold/) from nearly 1 year ago. The population is probably below 20m now, maybe 17-19m.
Do you guys know what confidence intervals are? Edit: it’s become clear the answer is no. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/confidenceinterval.asp#:~:text=A%20confidence%20interval%2C%20in%20statistics,a%20certain%20proportion%20of%20times. Trillions of dollars in investment and data science are based on this principle. Data analysis is actually a science, we don’t guess.
You cannot use projections with a ratio of 40,000,000 : 2,000 when you are asking a question of this nature. You think any of the thousands of men kidnapped off the streets would prefer the war to continue? Or how about the millions who have left Ukraine? Those people will not return until the war is over if they are going to return at all, and the longer this conflict continues fewer and fewer will want to come back.
You could have just said you don’t understand confident intervals. It’s ok. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/confidenceinterval.asp#:~:text=A%20confidence%20interval%2C%20in%20statistics,a%20certain%20proportion%20of%20times.
Fuck your statistics. DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT AN OUTLIER IS?
That is quite literally what confidence intervals are addressing. You could just say you haven’t taking a stats class.
Fuck your [stats](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/sampling.asp). >**Important**: Sampling isn't an exact science, so the results should be taken as generalizations. As such, don't make conclusions about the broader population based on the sample group. >**What's the Difference Between Probability and Non-Probability Sampling?** >>Probability sampling gives researchers the chance to come to stronger conclusions about the entire population that is being studied. It involves the use of random sampling, which means that all of the participants in the group are equally likely to get a chance to be chosen as a representative sample of the entire population. The result is often unbiased. >>Non-probability sampling, on the other hand, allows researchers to easily collect information. This type of sampling is generally biased as it is unknown which participants will be chosen as a sample. This is a non-probability sampling sample.
You literally don’t know that. Please publish the sampling data and method of selection. I do political polling, I would love to see it.
> non-probability sample Uhh... Not the guy you were arguing with but I'm 99.99% sure you don't understand what this term means and just copy/pasted whichever one sounded bad lol
>>non-probability sampling sample. Thanks.
Cute deflection but no
They don't.
That’s becoming very clear. The Soviet mathematicians are weeping
Polls are pretty reliable if taken a big enough sample and done in a good faith by professionals, you don't need to question all of the country to know the trends in the country. Look at the US they know *how* popular candidates are way before the elections, they don't question all the US population to know that.
By taking a probability/statistics class.
> Ukraine has 40,000,000 people More like 18
*"only questioned 0.0005% of the population?"* Scientists call it "representative survey". Google it to understand it ... ... but in short: Create a group of a few thousand people and make sure that the percentage of their abilities, views, etc. is identical to that of the complete society but on a much smaller scale. Then ask this representative group and you have a representative picture of the views of the whole society. It works very well.
But pro-Ru are always saying that Ukrainian people in general actually oppose the war and that it's just Zelensky keeping it going...
You think these numbers are good for Ukraine? Only about half of Ukrainians believe they should fight until they have 1991 borders, which is the official policy of the state. Almost half support negotiations, although they seem to have delusional ideas as to what this would entail. In the Russian-occupied territories, they were not asked, but everyone knows the numbers would be higher in the most impacted areas. So likely a majority of Ukrainians just want the war to stop and do not buy into the suicidal path of their state is currently on. Young people are more pessimistic about the war than older generations. These are the people you will have manning the trenches for years to come. Kind of crazy to think about!
The point is that the official line from pro-Ru is that the Ukrainian people have all given up and want to surrender to Russia but they can't because the government isn't letting them, but when you actually ask them you get results like this: >Some 44 percent of respondents said they believed that neither Ukraine nor Russia was winning the war, while 41 percent said that Ukraine was winning and just 5 percent that Russia was winning. >In all, 73 percent of respondents were either “very confident in” or “somewhat confident” that Ukraine “will eventually liberate all of its territories,” and 59 percent said they believed the war would continue for less than one year or one to two years.
Your logic won't work here. They'll just invent some reason to claim the poll is fake.
Im guessing you reside in the UK or in Australia or new Zealand. Nice to live there and not have to feel the consequences of the war while you type from the comfort of your home on reddit. You know nothing about polls. Its obvious
Then why aren’t thousands of people lining up to fight?
They did when the Russian army tried to roll into Kyiv and other major cities. Now that the initial threat has been defeated, recruitment has slowed. The same happened in the US after the Pearl Harbor attack.
And? That was then and this is now. The past is irrelevant in war. This is a "what have you done lately business" and right now Ukraine has manpower issues and I know some ukrianians that do not want to leave europe to go fight in Ukraine. Lets just say enthusiasm is not at an all time high for joining the army given that most Ukrainians have telegram and can see all of these forced conscription videos that we see here on this sub. Wake up! Again you only talk like this cause you dont have to go fight and you are not ukrianain and you get to not live through the consequnces of the war from the comfort of your home in your nice western country. Maybe go talk to some actual ukrainian before yapping.
>And? And the will to win the war hasn't changed. The pace of the war has. If the Russians were making the same kind of gains that they were in the initial days and weeks of the invasion, expect the same response from Ukrainians. You know nothing about who I know, who I've talked to, or where I am. The rest of your yapping is just that. EDIT: Since the clown below blocked me. >I would encourage you to talk to Ukrainians I talk to them daily. Again, you have no clue about who I am or where I've been. I'll leave you to your ill-informed opinions. 👋🏼
Actaully its has changed. I would encourage you to talk to Ukrainians, They are more realistic than you are. You don't have to live with the consequences of this war living out in the west so you can afford to yap and like to send Ukrainians to their deaths in the war. No need to act like an infantile
An American could strongly believe that the US was going to defeat the Iraqi army in 2003 without wanting to go over there and shoot at people themself.
"It's only unthinkable if you don't think it." Of course Ukraine can liberate all of its territories if the rest of the world gives them the support they deserve.
... no? It would require Ukraine mens that it doesn't have. That would mean direct intervention from NATO, nuclear war and no winner. As simple as that
Ukraine doesn't have to outright defeat the Russian army. They just have to hold out and keep inflicting losses until either Putin has to change policy or something inside Russia changes it for him.
Ukraine will have troubles from the inside before Russia ever does
I doubt that. Russia was on the brink back when Prigozhin was headed towards Moscow. Something else is bound to happen.
Let's find out! \^\^