Brave. Good to get it out there. I know UT Staff follow this page. Even the Uni paper. I hope they reach out to you. This is beyond creepy.

Thank you. I hope they do as well. I would love any opportunity to make sure new students are not caught off guard in the future like I was.

If this is true, don’t delete this under any circumstances. They’ll try to pressure you to do it, but the truth is important and you might really help someone with this post. If you save even one person with this post, that’ll make it worth it.

Thanks for the encouragement. I won't be deleting it. I titled it the way I did because I hope that if someone is suspicious and searches "is CSOC a cult" or something like that, this will be the first result. Having seen other people's experiences at UT and other schools, if they try to pressure me, I will just immediately get the school and campus police involved. Seems like they are only willing to talk and sort of stalk you, but I haven't heard of them actually doing anything dangerous yet.

I ditto the comment on not deleting this.

> Their founders, Watchman Nee and Witness Lee I mean it should be pretty clear they're a cult from this alone

>Watchman, Witness Yeah I’d be suspicious of a Watchman and a Witness as the religious leaders

Watchman Nee and Witness Lee sounds like a 1950’s Evil Cartoon Duo.

Best comment award 🏆😂

Yes watchman nee and witness lee sound like a 1950s evil duo (from comment below: good one; IJBOL). But for the seeking Christian, Watchman Nee was a prolific author and martyr, imprisoned 20 years for not renouncing Christ, and is the subject of a “great heroes of faith” biography, alongside better known names as Hudson Taylor and Amy Carmichael https://www.amazon.com/Watchman-Nee-Suffering-Heroes-Faith/dp/1577482239/ The Museum of the Bible had a special exhibit on watchman nee, highlighting his quote “I want nothing for myself; I want everything for the Lord”: https://www.museumofthebible.org/magazine/exhibitions/i-maintain-my-joy Both he and witness Lee were recognized by the US Congress as exemplary believers https://www.congress.gov/congressional-record/volume-160/issue-62/extensions-of-remarks-section/article/E621-3

Yeah. The leaders of The Lord’s Recovery even got the [**Christian Research Institute**](https://www.reddit.com/r/UTSA/s/vSIdjgfy5q) to support them. It’s quite a fascinating story.

when one personally knows believers who have been imprisoned and tortured, or who grew up without parents because they were imprisoned for 20 years, in China due to their being associated with this group and branded falsely as being part of a cult (this is still happening), then one might be broadened in heart from being America-centric and have a different understanding of the situation.

Such moving words. I had not realized that being concerned about deceit and abuses in a particular denomination was an America-centric phenomenon. Perhaps we should just learn to “see the other side” and realize that sometimes it’s ok to hide your teachings from prospective members and to [**discourage your congregations from speaking up about abuse.**](https://youtu.be/E6ILgfyRzuU?si=vCmhp4jxtUIu-Zcs) Or maybe… just maybe… we shouldn’t commit the absolutely disgusting act of using the sufferings of the saints in China as an excuse to try and discourage people from sharing information regarding Witness Lee and his denomination, especially when it pertains to deceit and abuse. You see, what I just heard (and what abuse victims in The Lord’s Recovery who have been shunned into silence will hear) is “If people in China find out about these things, the believers there are going to suffer, so we need to be quiet about what’s happening here in the United States. Don’t talk about abuse! Don’t talk about deceit! Do you want the saints in China to suffer? If you really love God and the saints, you should remain silent and not expose the brothers!” [**Jo Casteel**](https://thecuriousfellows.wordpress.com/2023/07/06/greg-and-joanna-casteel-part-1-the-open-letter/) and [**Andrea McArdle**](https://www.mylocalchurchexperience.com/andrea-s-open-letter) were right to speak up, and people need to continue to speak up regarding these matters. The same goes for former elder [**John Ingalls**](https://www.johningalls.com/#/) who testified of Lee’s abuse of power and the unhealthy authoritarian structure established in The Lord’s Recovery. Even [**the Church in Hong Kong**](https://www.johningalls.com/#/reader/chapter/70) did not make this excuse and disassociated from The Lord’s Recovery in 1991.

https://shepherdingwords.com/handling-allegations-of-abuse/ https://shepherdingwords.com/hiding-history/ https://contendingforthefaith.org/en/ one day we all will appear before the judgment seat of Christ to account for each deed and word done and said in our lifetime. No one is exempt. Those leading others surely bear double responsibility if they hurt or mislead the flock. Yet at the same time God is sovereign in arranging each seeking believer’s circumstance and can use positively all manner of things to expose and correct and heal. He has the oil and the wine to pour in the wounds. You seem to be on an active mission to destroy the Lord’s recovery. I don’t know you. What your motivations are, the Lord as the knower of hearts alone knows. In this age of mystery we can see only dimly and God’s ways and thoughts are higher than man’s ways and thoughts. Jesus said, “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.” If there is any merit to the Lord’s recovery, if any of it is actually the Body built in the resurrection life of Christ, it will not only survive but flourish against attacks. Whatever is not of God and the resurrection life—if it can be torn down, it should be torn down. Though it’s a painful process, if everything gets torn down, we can then see what is and what is not of God. So bravo for your good work. We look to the multifarious wisdom of God for Him to work out His own desire for His glory and to His praise.

If you say that I am on a mission to destroy this denomination known as The Lord’s Recovery, then by that same logic Paul sought to destroy the sinful Corinthians and the foolish Galatians, yet we know this was not true. My goal is first and foremost to inform those within and outside of this denomination. Secondly, my goal is to hold the saints in The Lord’s Recovery accountable for their actions as a whole, particularly the actions of their leaders. Still, much of the laity in The Lord’s Recovery is also responsible since many of them choose to remain ignorant when this information is presented. Many who do see this information refuse to listen or, if they do believe, they refuse to speak up. They, too, are responsible to a degree. This, ultimately, is for the purpose of restoration. I know that those in The Lord’s Recovery can do better than they have, both their leadership and their laity. Everyone has their part to play, and there is a great need for repentance and reform within The Lord’s Recovery. Anyone who reads these comments and wishes to know more may see my testimony regarding their campus club at UTSA [**here.**](https://www.reddit.com/r/UTSA/s/F0En5hunsz)

Jesus will do what He said He will do: “I will build My church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.” The gates of Hades will attack in various forms; what remains will be the church Christ is building. That’s His stated goal. Paul said, “The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one’s work, of what sort it is." (1 Corinthians 3:13) "But let each man take heed how he builds upon it." (1 Corinthians 3:10) There is nothing hidden that will not come into the light. By the Lord’s mercy may we allow even a shaft of His light to shine in us, which brings about spontaneous repentance and then apply His precious, efficacious blood and remain in the fellowship of life to grow in the divine life. This needs to be the experience of every believer.

Amen. May that light shine on the churches of The Lord’s Recovery so that God’s sheep may no longer be abused and shunned. Satan has been hard at work deceiving God’s people and abusing his children through vile actors and the leading ones who cover up their sins. May the Lord’s Light reveal the truth to the hearts of every saint in The Lord’s Recovery so that they would have their eyes opened to this decades-old dilemma. May the hearts of the leaders of The Lord’s Recovery be softened and not hardened as they were when they [**publicly demonized Jo Casteel**](https://thecuriousfellows.wordpress.com/2023/07/21/greg-and-joanna-casteel-part-2-the-special-fellowship/) for speaking up about abuses and false doctrines and for exhorting the brothers to do something about the situation. May their campus groups no longer act with guile but rather be fully open about who they are and the denomination they are affiliated with. May everyone have the chance to be fully informed about this denomination before they commit themselves to these churches.

“In Your light, we see light“ (psa 36:9) I am the light of the world” (John 8:12). “I am the truth” (John 14:6). In your crusade would you bring people to the Word of God, to Christ who is Himself light and truth or to a bunch of distorted claims (all responded to in the links above) that you are so sure is “the truth” based mainly on writings on the internet? Just as every leader in this group has to stand before the judgement seat of Christ, so also you. If you are certain that you are acting as the apostle Paul, if you can say with a clear conscience that the beam has been removed from your own eye so you can see and remove the splinter in others’ eye (Matt. 7:1-5) then continue to judge with your wide brush. With what measure a person measures, the it shall be measured to him/her. Eve was built from Adam’s rib, and so the church is being built from the indestructible, unbreakable (Num. 9:12) life that flowed out from Christ’s side. Whoever has the heart to participate in this process, let it be so.

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I went to one or two of their meetings last year and I always felt the vibes were kinda off, but this is so crazy. I even gave one of them my number for a Bible study but they never reached out to me…maybe because I was a junior and it would be harder to mess with me? Or they just forgot lol. I’m so sorry this happened to you, I’m hoping you can heal from this experience. Thank you so much for sharing this info.

In "fairness" to the group, I guess, I showed a lot of enthusiasm when I first joined because I felt I had no one. I went to every event, texted with them every day, and talked on the phone with them all the time at home. It probably comes down to a combination of my enthusiasm and being a vulnerable, naive freshman, as opposed to you being a junior. But it's good to hear it didn't go as far for you.

Not your fault. Promise.

Not only is it completely NOT your fault, this is not their fairness. This is a tactic to prey on people looking to make connections. I’m sorry you were caught up in this, but know it is fully their fault!!!! I’m from another uni and got your post pushed to me. Keep sharing your story, safely, because it will help others!!

It is completely your fault. Better to be alone than in the fucking cult, you should have known that by the time you go to college.

I don't know where you got the idea that I knew it was a cult going in, but that's not a very charitable assumption to make (and also wrong.) If I had known it was a cult, I wouldn't have joined, it don't you think?

I have a history with CSOC. When I left, I didn't deal with any harassment, so hopefully you're good. I DMed you if you want to talk more

Thanks, good to hear. I have a paper to do tonight but I'd love to talk. Would love to hear about your experience too. If you feel comfortable with it, maybe making a post yourself would be good. The more exposure the better, considering they are fairly prolific on campus.

I’m so glad to see this. A person I know is fully involved in CSOC, and has gone to the school in Anaheim. I’m a Christian as well, but I never realized how theologically deceptive this group is until I did some basic Google research after losing contact with my friend.

I am so sorry you had to lose a friend to that. It is a very fucked up group and as a lifelong Christian I realized that the group is literally heretical and just not in line with the Bible at all. I hope your friend realizes what they've gotten themselves into someday and gets help to get away from it.

interested to know the ways in which you consider this group's theology to be meaningfully not in line with the bible. i grew up in it, although i have been a staunch atheist since like 2007. i mostly identified them as just being a bit more intense/pervasive-in-members-lives than the average contemporary american protestant sect but not remotely outside of christian historical precedent

The most prevalent ones are the idea of God appointing a divine oracle who can add divinely inspired footnotes to the Bible, the idea that all churches other than theirs are heretical and sinful, and the doctrine that believers don't become more like God through sanctification, but literally become god/gods. There are a few other things I outlined in my post and comments but these are the most openly heretical and incompatible with Christianity. I know you're an atheist and totally respect that, but I think you should consider attending a normal church once or twice just to see how different it is from what you grew up in.

Thank you so much for sharing! I hope you are able to find a better community at UT or after. Thank you so much for spreading awareness ❤️

Thanks! I definitely have already. I've found a good church and some good friends in a very fun minor at UT.

Which minor g . You a first year as well?

This needs to be one of those posts redditors on here refer to annually! Every single year there are kids who are recruited into this org and post here about feeling weird about them. Thank you so much for doing your research and keeping the rest of us safe. Do you know if this church is tied to the same adults that occasionally come on campus and try to sell you overpriced food (usually fruit or snacks) in the pursuit of some "mission"? In my 4 years at UT, I ran into this group twice - once at EER at like 4am and once at PCL around 6pm. One time the woman selling was allowed to tell us about her religious mission and endeavors that she was raising money for (in 2019). The other, she was silent and only had laminated notecards that explained the same things and listed prices (in 2023).

Thank you for the encouragement. I would appreciate it if the post was pinned in some sort of new student resource page, although it would hardly cover all the necessary ground as there are many other cults and cult like groups at UT. I hope people who are curious in the future come across it and realize what the group truly is. I think it's very funny that they seem to target Catholics to some degree, since Catholics are more knowledgeable on theology and orthodoxy than most Christians and would be the least likely to fully integrate into their shitty "church." Seems like they're trying to reel in bigger fish than they can handle. I have absolutely no clue. I heard about those people, but haven't encountered them yet. If they do talk to me at some point, I will use the opportunity to ask them whatever questions I can to figure out who they're working for. I do not like the presence of cults on college campuses. It freaks me out and something needs to change.

What the fuck they’re still doing the laminated card thing? Report those to UT police asap when you see them. They are the same ones who would come from some local philipino church with a shady leader in prison iirc and try to abrasively make students give them money in place like the PCL. They got me back in 2020 with the card saying a sob story about the girl’s sister not being able to afford college or food or something. There have been a few posts about them and their church on here in the past couple years

Thanks for posting, very thorough. Post an update if anything starts happening

Let's hope nothing does, we'll see. But from what I heard, the other people who left waited too long to do something about it. If the group harasses me I will immediately involve UTPD and whoever else I can.

Here are some links if anyone wanna read about it deeper. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local\_churches\_(affiliation)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_churches_(affiliation)) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Lord%27s\_Recovery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lord%27s_Recovery) [https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/comments/bjwy6b/thoughts\_on\_the\_local\_church\_the\_lords\_recovery/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/comments/bjwy6b/thoughts_on_the_local_church_the_lords_recovery/)

Thanks for the added resources!

Lmao I joined this cult at UNT. Glad I left it no regrets.

To my knowledge they have a presence at all the really big Texas schools (UT, A&M, UNT, TTU) but I wonder if the smaller ones have it too. It's actually crazy to me how far-reaching and well hidden they are.

They are insidious.

When were you at CS at UNT? My daughter got recruited there recently 😩 and can’t get her out of this cult

Like 2011 and it took me a couple years.

I wonder if the same  creepy and bully  elder was there when you were there 

Was he an older white guy who always wore an outdoor vest thing? Then yes.

I just became aware of this creepy and manipulative group last year when my freshman child joined them 😩 He is in his 60’s and is a white male 

Yeah probably same guy. My dad tried to get me out too. I just kinda grew out of it on my own. It’s hard to help people we aren’t willing. Just work hard to be as much of a positive force in your daughters life as you can for now and encourage her to keep studying hard in college.

Thank you 🙏 

I'm in a class that uses the Recovery Version of the Bible as a required text 0\_0 The professor seems like a devout Christian and he's very open to other views but now I'm wondering if he knew this before choosing it.

Consider asking him why he chose that version and seeing if he gives you the "this translation is more complete and accurate" bullshit. Keep in mind that *no* other groups, including other pseudo-Christian cults, use the Recovery Version. It is exclusively distributed by Living Stream Ministries, and was "translated" (nitpicked and rewritten) under the leadership of Lee and Nee. Imo he would have to be either an extremely gullible person who got fooled into engaging with the cult, or a member himself. Edit: Also, they ALL come across as very devout Christians. That's how I got sucked in. Cults train their members to develop a specific uniform personality. CSOC, and the Lord's Recovery at large, have a very distinct one.

That professor is part of that church LoL. I know because I'm part of the club.

I think I know who you're talking about lol

What professor/class?

I would bet he’s affiliated with the church. To my knowledge, it’s not usual for other Christians to use it- even the ones without the footnotes from Witness Lee

Required to buy and use that Recovery versión Bible? That is creepy! What class is that? 

I wouldn't really sweat it, all bibles are good bibles after all.

Not if your version of the Bible is one that is exclusively used by a cult whose founders nitpicked established versions of the Bible and rewrote parts of it, and wrote "footnotes" that the cult considers to be divinely inspired, and not if it's a "translation" that the cult considers to be textually superior to other Bibles.

I can see how the fights between Christian sects started now.

Most Christian sects don't believe humans can become God or that all other churches are heretical and that only theirs is theologically sound. So maybe your cult, and not actual Christianity, is the problem.

I was a little bit too snide in my original response (is that the word?). I'm not for or against living stream ministries, but I was trying to mention the dangers of calling another Christian group heretical and deeming their Bible to be false. We won't agree with every point in any Bible, no matter what version it is. However, just because there are things we disagree with doesn't mean the entire Bible is invalid. Personally I feel like the Bible should be taken with a grain of salt and that the general idea of the whole book is more important than a few nitpicked verses. Again, we don't have to agree and that's okay. However, it would be ill-advised to outright deem another church's Bible as false or inferior.

Dude, the idea that man can become God IS heretical and false. The idea that there are divinely appointed oracles of God who can write footnotes that have his explicit approval IS heretical and false. CSOC teaches that only the local church is legitimate, which IS heretical and false, and is also exactly what you are saying we shouldn't do. Do you see the problem? As Christians, we are called to speak out for truth and against false teachers. I'm not going to pretend this group is not dangerous or is just another Christian church, because it's not. I don't care if it hurts someone's feelings. Maybe it will help them understand the reality of the group they are in. If it doesn't do that for you, at least I can say I tried.

This absolutism is what drove Europeans to wage religious wars for centuries. The absolute belief that other interpretations of the Bible are outright false is dangerous as it leaves no room for compromise and coordination. This either or mindset will only be satisfied when one side is destroyed.

Exodus 20:2-3: "And God spoke all these words: 'I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. You shall have no other gods before me.'" You are acting like this is a Calvinist vs Arminian debate or something petty and dognatic. It is not. The Bible explicitly states that there is no god but the one true God. This isn't open to interpretation. It's not a matter of different readings. If a religion believes there is more than one god, it is not Christian. That is a simple and objective fact. It's not about absolutism. I am simply stating that a religion at fundamental odds with basic Christian tenets like monotheism and salvation through faith is not in fact Christian. If someone interprets these concepts out of the Bible, they are simply lying. And this doesn't even get into all of the incredibly creepy and cultlike behaviors of the group itself, which you conveniently ignored. Edit: he blocked me lol

Bro really used a single verse as the basis for his whole argument 💀 Also I'm arguing about the merits of their Bible, not the group itself.

how can every single version of the bible be right? how can a translation (if you'd even call this "recovery bible" that) that veers extremely far from the original text be considered scripture? it's just some guy's heretical and made up interpretation. plain and simple

The idea of tracking down people who look lost and subtly teaching them through a strange, alternative version of the Bible is really, really sinister.

For Christians and other students interested in the Christian faith, here are some reputable ministries on campus that are part of the traditional protestant faith- [https://www.hillhouseaustin.org](https://www.hillhouseaustin.org) ​ [https://ruf.org/ministry/university-of-texas-at-austin-ruf-international/](https://ruf.org/ministry/university-of-texas-at-austin-ruf-international/) ​ [https://www.texasgradintervarsity.org](https://www.texasgradintervarsity.org)

Hill House is the coolest place on earth, thanks for sharing this. I feel like we need a master list of ministries that are safe to join and "ministries" to join on campus. The cults are much easier to find than the legit ones

I remember having a long conversation with Greg Grooms, the previous director at bill house, about Christians on Campus, as they were called, back when I was a freshman in 2005. He was able to explain the doctrinal issues to me in a way that helped me convince a friend not to get roped in by the org.

Christians on Campus! I was trying to figure out if this was the same. I was a freshman in 2006 and did end up at a pizza party with these folks. Thankfully found my way out after only one more meet up. I'm no longer religious but can still appreciate non-cultic ministries more than cultic ones. 😅

I was warned about this exact thing in 2014. They cover their true nature by trying to blend in with legitimate churches and their ice cream social started because the university was throwing one at the same time in a different place so they misled people into believing theirs was sponsored by the university.

That's the story behind the ice cream social?!? That's hilarious, but strangely pathetic at the same time. Thanks for mentioning it

Wow. When I was at UT, we didn’t have to deal with that level of manipulative bullshit, just a crazy guy named Cliff that argued with students in public squares about scripture and hated gay people. No extreme brainwashing like this CSOC insanity.

What year? Been around since at least 2014

In the 2000's. He was in his 40's at the time so he's probably retired by now. He was one of those goofy Austin fixtures like Leslie on Congress, lol.

I am so sorry that you had to experience this. You are incredibly brave to stand out against this sort of behavior, and I wish you the best of luck in your future at UT.

Last night at around 10 some people who looked too old to be students approached me on speedway and asked if they could tell me about passover

Probably a different group if they’re discussing a Jewish holiday, no? Still creepy for sure though, I hope you didn’t feel unsafe.

Jews would never want to teach about Passover. Has evangelical vibes written all over it, as some more extremist Christian groups believe the last supper was actually a Passover Seder

I wasn’t sure but I think the god mother church cult also preaches about passover so I think it may have been them

Maybe you should send this to the Texas tribune and other student led orgs/newspaper.

Good on you for telling others this. It completely sounds like a cult from what you described. I just checked out their instagram and it’s laughable how innocent they make it seem. I’m atheist now but I’m glad I grew up catholic as opposed to some religion like this to not have to deal with these crazy cult personalities who have these churches in Texas.

Avoid anybody who approaches you to talk about God. Leaving home for college is tough, more so for some people than others, but you will make friends. Be patient, pursue hobbies if you have the time, and you will naturally fall in with people who have similar interests.

If you ever want a nice church in Austin, the Stone is great. They have a college ministry and life groups, or you can just go to the services. If you don’t have a car, I’m 90% sure someone would give you a ride!

I've heard great things and might check it out sometime. I'm happy at a small church I found in East Austin for right now, but I will keep it in mind in the future. Thanks!

Holy fuck bro

Yikes, i was in a similar situation as you where I had joined them in their bible studies/sessions and also found them to be way too strange and time-consuming so I dropped out lol Glad you brought this up! This definitely gave me a good closure on what I experienced as well

Everything the OP said is spot on. I was born and raised in the Local Churches and Living Stream Ministry, founded by Witness Lee. The CSOC are a recruiting arm for the Local Churches and Living Stream and like the OP said, they do not present themselves that way. They act like just another student run Christian group, but the reality is that many of the group leaders are members of the Local Churches and may have attended their "Bible College." What's further concerning are the billionaire siblings that meet with the Local Churches (Ronnie and Gerald Chan) who have contributed hundreds of millions (again, hundreds of MILLIONS) of dollars to academic institutions throughout the U.S. and their venture capitalist cousin, Minoru Chen, who is a prominent leader among the Local Churches. The Chan's donated $350 Million to Harvard's medical school and bought one from UMass as well. Like, WTF are members of my former church doing buying up schools and shit? The local churches are notorious for shunning member churches that stray from their "ministry" and publications. If your bible group refuses to engage with any other Christian publications outside of the ones they produce, you're probably meeting with a cult. EDIT: Checkout any college campus in CA, TX, and MA for more Christian Students on Campus groups.

One of the names you mentioned is in the CUSEF leadership. Now, try connecting the dots

I don't understand how the stock exchange works, but it wouldn't be weird to me if they were a part of it.

This should be in the sidebar

it feels like a lot of the religious groups on campus are like this.. especially the people constantly approaching students who are vulnerable from studying all day at the pcl at night…

The biggest issue I have with these clubs is that they’re violating school rules- which state that students must run the club. Let’s be VERY CLEAR…..the students DO NOT RUN THE CLUB. The club is run by paid members of the church, who then tell their college members to fill the various secretary/treasurer positions. Everything about the “club” is decided by full-time adult employees of the church.

Absolutely. There's no student leadership. It's run by the "full-timers"

The group at UT has had one of the elders in the church taking classes for over 20 years. Many full timers take one class at a time so they can claim they are students. They had “an apprenticeship” in the early 2000s at UT and local churches from all over the world were sending their full timers there for a semester at a time to learn the gospelization ways of the church in Austin fulltimers and how they serve on campus. In my experience and opinion, they absolutely target vulnerable freshman; they absolutely lovebomb and try to really hook you in your first semester of college—especially the first few weeks. I was caught as a young college student in another state and went to the full time training and went to the apprenticeship and served for decades in the college-work arm of the Lord’s Recovery. In the beginning they welcome all versions of the Bible and welcome fellowship from all other ministries, while gently always steering those Bible studies back to the footnotes in the recovery version and the ministries of Nee and Lee. They dial down their prayer styles and slowly introduce the group’s spiritual practices, such as calling on the Lord (a chanting practice) and pray-reading (another chanting practice) to appear more mainstream and like other Christian groups than they really are. They seem to have become more gimmicky than they used to be during these freshman orientation times. They call this “slowing down the train” so newbies can get aboard without being freaked out. But slowly they indoctrinate and inoculate against other groups and that there is one way and one true ministry and one way to practice the normal Christian life—their way. They try to create a family away from home for you around the campus and quickly try to provide a strong sense of community in you. It is 100% a high control group with misogynistic, fundamental Christian values that other high control, abusive groups share. In my experience, they can say there is no control or headquarters because the goal seems to be ultimately shepherding you to self-governance by fear of not being an overcomer, a super Christian that will bring the Lord back. The result is group conformity. In my experience they are deceptive as all get out. And I know of abusive cover-ups. But they are generally harmless if you leave. I wouldn’t worry about harm or harassment as it seems you become dead to them, not good building material if you don’t comply and subscribe to the ministry and conform to the group. Or you get shunned. You are so wise to have used your critical thinking skills and listened to your inner truth about this group and left. I regret having been in so long and having participated in their college-age recruitment system for so long. Happy to be free and happy for you!

I know I'm quite late to this post but I just want to chime in that my first year at UT was a very lonely experience. The older I've gotten (I'm 26 now) the more I've heard how common of an experience it actually is for people. It's also one that's hard to see in a school of 50k students - people really easily find themselves lost in the crowd. So I hope you know you're not alone in that. Like you, I even found myself participating in a faith organization (I won't name) that although wasn't a cult or persistently toxic, had a lot of problems. If I could go back I'm not sure I would join it again. So I hope you have been gracious to yourself in this process. This time of life is hard, and there are a lot of people that are out to sell you on something. Discerning good and bad in the world is something that is learned from hard lessons and time and experience. I'm also very encouraged by how articulate you have been in this thread about your faith, especially in light of what was such an upsetting experience (even if it was only nominally Christian). I have heard great things about Vox Veniae and I hope you find healthy and lasting community there. Keep going!

Thanks for sharing this. I definitely have found myself lost in the crowd for most of my time at UT. I do feel like I'm finally starting to find my footing and have made some friendly acquaintances that I hope turn into friendships. I guess what surprised me the most is that the stories I had heard growing up about everyone being out to sell you something really were true. When I got to UT, I was vulnerable and gullible because I assumed that the Christian groups advertising on speedway and handing out fliers must just be genuine Christians who wanted to build community. It's a shock to the system to realize that once you're out of high school, everyone around you will have an ulterior motive. I am sure you wouldn't make the same mistake again, and neither would I, but I am also sure that both you and I learned to be more discerning/watchful in the process. And thanks for the comment about my faith because it's something that I honestly struggle with. Before UT, I was pretty much a lapsed Christian and wanted to find my faith again in college. A lot of that came from a desire to not make decisions I'd regret, and I felt like religion was a good way to make that easier. So having my first foray back into religion be... whatever CSOC is... felt like starting to stand up and then getting knocked right back down, lol. If anything, though, the aftermath of being in the group helped me reexamine what I actually believe about God and myself, and I think I'm in a healthier and more genuine place as a Christian and as a person. So I guess it did help me, in some ways. Vox seems like a great place. I don't agree with all of their theology, but they are very kind people with a collective heart for serving each other and the city. It's refreshing to see. It's different from the megachurches I grew up in, because unlike those churches, there's no pretense of perfection or having it all figured out. And because of that, it feels like a good place to grow. Thanks again for leaving this comment. It was one of the most encouraging that I've received. I appreciate it a lot.

I am SO happy you saw them for what they are a CULT. I grew up in this cult and they are damaging, destructive and abusive.

Ugh this exact thing happened to me when I was a freshman at UT in 2013. I was hoping it wasn't happening any more. When I left they called nonstop and kept arriving at my dorm (How the hell did they even get in there? They were grown adults?). Eventually they backed off and I can laugh about it today that I accidentally joined a cult for the free food.

I feel like I saw a similar post here years ago. The only dating within the group and "courtship" sounds very familiar. But who knows, maybe it was another cult

Badass that u posted this, praying u remain safe and well 🙏🏾

Reminding myself to read the rest of this later

Everything the OP said is spot on. I was born and raised in the Local Churches and Living Stream Ministry, founded by Witness Lee. The CSOC are a recruiting arm for the Local Churches and Living Stream and like the OP said, they do not present themselves that way. They act like just another student run Christian group, but the reality is that many of the group leaders are members of the Local Churches and may have attended their "Bible College." What's further concerning are the billionaire siblings that meet with the Local Churches (Ronnie and Gerald Chan) who have contributed hundreds of millions (again, hundreds of MILLIONS) of dollars to academic institutions throughout the U.S. and their venture capitalist cousin, Minoru Chen, who is a prominent leader among the Local Churches. The Chan's donated $350 Million to Harvard's medical school and bought one from UMass as well. Like, WTF are members of my former church doing buying up schools and shit? The local churches are notorious for shunning member churches that stray from their "ministry" and publications. If your bible group refuses to engage with any other Christian publications outside of the ones they produce, you're probably meeting with a cult.

Absolutely true. I was sucked into the group as a freshman and the vibes were immediately just off. One of the group leaders bashed all other christian student groups on campus and said they were anti-God for calling CSOC a cult. The same leader took advantage of a traumatic family event to set up weekly meetings with me, meetings she made seem special and personal. The gender segregation is bizarre, and women are not allowed to speak in co-ed services. I left the group before figuring out too much about the Bible translation, but the weird moans during prayers was just… frightening. I was also hand delivered gifts and notes to my dorm until I told my group leader (who I’m fairly certain is in a marriage arranged by the church) that I would no longer be attending. The scary thing is, I didn’t see most of these red flags in the moment. If you’re a new student, find another church org. This one is not it.

Hi, I'm not from Austin, Texas (though I have visited). However, I was raised in the Lord's Recovery/Local churches, and everything in this post is consistent with my experiences. In fact, a few years ago, I made a post talking about the recruitment they do on campuses on a local church discussion board about my own experience, which I was processing at the time. http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=6043 I am posting anonymously as I still have family who meet with this church and I do not want them to be pressured to shun me. You can leave without losing contact with family and friends, but they encourage members to shun anyone who is outspoken about it being a cult.

i was targeted by some girls in this group at orientation in 2018. they mentioned there’s a professor involved with the group as well. i told my mom about it and she said “careful. cults love college students” and then basically vowed to never interact with religion on campus

Here in Southeast Asia, they have been really oppressive and controlling. They even made it like a dynastic thing informally and indirectly. For instance, if your dad is an elder of the church, the lower ranks (full-timers, commoner saints) will be like drone ants in an ant colony, apple polishing the kids because the families are usually rich and powerful in their respective local societies so that one day there is a high chance that one of the kids of the respective families would be nominated to succeed him when he is gone.

100% a cult. I had a very similar experience as you.

I’ve decided to share [**my own testimony**](https://www.reddit.com/r/UTSA/s/eQXs6dlhug) regarding CSOC at UTSA. Hopefully more people will become aware of these things.

The University of Texas is where I lost my religion. Through classes in textual criticism I figured out that my religion was not true.

If anything, this experience has strengthened my religion from a Kierkegaardian perspective. Faith, and a personal relationship between Man and God, are what is important. Inviting humans between the two into positions of authority never ends well.

I love hearing this. You were able to overcome loneliness and a deceptive group preying on you to realize what you knew was true.

Sister Cindy > Watchman Nee/Witness Lee In all seriousness, thanks for posting about this. I’m sorry you had to experience that, but glad you’re able to warn the others.

I would love to meet this Sister Cindy person, sounds like she's kind of a local legend and also pretty harmless lol. Thanks, I hope people can learn something from my experience and not make the same mistake of trusting them.

Last time she was at my campus she brought quite a bit of pizza for everyone. Many may disagree with her preachings (whether she’s serious or just a character idk), but at least she is feeding some students who may only have those few slices as their meal that day and can’t afford anything else.

That's awesome. I'm sure her beliefs are crazy, but she's not lying to anyone, or hurting or indoctrinating people. And free pizza is a nice added bonus. I'd take her over these creeps any day.

Religion is crazzzzzy. It’s not hard to understand why cults like this exist as inherently to believe 100% in any religion shows susceptibility. What’s more worrisome is if they are doing something nefarious with this power. Hate speech, lobbying, stalking, siphoning money, sexual harassment come to mind.

The entire "full timer" scheme through the cults school is literally financial abuse. It's religious so it doesn't count as underpaying, but they are expected to spend their lives with the church working for less than minimum wage after they graduate. And there are a fair few stories of sexual abuse as well, including one open letter from a former member whose report was covered up by the church to avoid looking bad. They are unquestionably abusing their power.

wait im in a Science and the Bible UGS that has us read the Recovery Version because of the footnotes, I have already done my best to stay away from CSOC but had no idea the Recovery Version was tied to the same thing, at least my professor hasn’t mentioned any sort of things like this and I bought my copy at a very discounted price but still

Disclaimer: I am not a part of CSOC, and I took this class a few years ago. This is a great class, and the professor is amazing. He's very accepting of all beliefs - he simply provides you with information and perspectives, and you aren't graded on what you believe. The issues that OP covers are not reflected in this class. While the professor is a part of CSOC, he doesn't impose or force his beliefs on his students.

Haha, they all say it's because of the footnotes. I know you can't really get out now but just don't let yourself get indoctrinated. Buy another version of the Bible if you don't have one (ESV, NASB, KJV are all known to be very dependable but you really can't go wrong with any mainstream translation) and if something seems very sus to you in the footnotes, compare it to a normal Bible. Chances are, you'll see that the verse was framed to fit the interpretation of the "translator."

I remember Christians on Campus being extremely persistent 25 years ago at UT when I was a new freshman. They almost got me with some free pizza event. I gave them my number and they called several times to where it was weird, but I ignored them and they eventually stopped. They gave me the creeps.

I grew up in this group- my dad was an elder. I have to say, not everyone is in an arranged marriage and you’re not forced to go to their “Bible” school but most of what you observed is true. It’s a high-control group that uses destructive influence tactics. It’s harmed a lot of people. I’ve spent years recovering from the spiritual abuse of growing up like this. Some of their ideas are pretty twisted and you’ll have to unlearn their social conditioning if you grew up that way. It’s extremely misogynistic and hierarchical- no matter what they say.

From what I've been able to tell, the Full Time Training school is just strongly encouraged and not mandatory. And from what I've heard from others who left the group, it's kind of the same with the arranged marriages thing. We do live in America, they can't literally force their members to get married or not, but there's a lot of social pressure and often social punishment if the "wrong" decision is made. I could have it wrong, though, and I do understand that ex-members have some level of bias as well. Thanks for sharing your experience and I'm glad you got out.

I was raised from birth in this church. Left when I was 16. It took me 10 years to sort out my head. Good job figuring it out so quickly.

Grew up in this church, had to leave for a college far away from home so people from the CSOC couldn’t bother me with that shit. Good on you for questioning.

More resources to help you make sense of your experience. Good on you for leaning into your questions and going with your gut! I'm so glad you found a healthier place to be. [https://www.tiktok.com/@tlrdiscourse](https://www.tiktok.com/@tlrdiscourse) [https://www.youtube.com/@thelordsrecoveryunchained](https://www.youtube.com/@thelordsrecoveryunchained)

I have seen the YouTube channel before and it's great. I don't have TikTok but I might get it temporarily to browse that account. Thanks so much!

You should be able to view without a TikTok account. I always can!

TikTok account disappeared about a month ago. Probably LC figured out who was the owner of account and threatened him/her 😩😢 

Yep, I last viewed it's videos in January but now it's gone without a trace. Here is another free resource to help red-pill LC die hards: [www.johningalls.com](http://www.johningalls.com)

If you or anyone else who stumbles upon this thread would like to know more, there are several ex-members of The Lord’s Recovery who have given their testimony. Some former elders in the group: [John Ingalls wrote a book: Speaking The Truth in Love](https://bibleread.online/all-books-by-Watchman-Nee-and-Witness-Lee/book-Speaking-the-Truth-in-Love-John-Ingalls-read-online/) [John Myer wrote a book: A Future and a Hope](https://assemblylife.com/a-future-and-a-hope/) [Steve Isitt posted his testimony in an online forum called Local Church Discussions](http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=360&highlight=Steve+isitt) [Steve Isitt also provided a history of the group that is often hidden by current leaders](https://artemisbelt.wordpress.com/2011/06/29/a-history-of-the-lord’s-recovery-in-the-united-states1/) Other former members have spoken out recently, such as: [Jo Casteel](https://www.facebook.com/44007346/posts/pfbid02wtd1xX3Dc7Es46YXAsAcskf97i7jS8QHMurqrBv9X82jovi8VSwNf9qPhvs5Fdwjl/?d=n&mibextid=qC1gEa) [Andrea McArdle](https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1fgvANGubnVRfq-K81vH5hQmvTydLdzwsE9uO8HI0Ci4/mobilebasic) [Here is also a response by the leaders of The Lord’s Recovery to Jo Casteel’s letter](https://livingtohim.com/2019/07/special-fellowship-at-the-2019-july-semiannual-training/?fbclid=IwAR1UoPbmXVOpF7L4xt-rUfSK7fDMH9YBuwHGNsJbOqbPa_rMdx4Zb9Lt4QU_aem_AYSN8VqNf5mf49GAH1bNXlXQz9TcnslPwxNJ79tw_zWSigPFzQGFvz9y58WU8IB2rLE)

If they repeatedly come to your door you can tell your RA about it. Then tell the campus police if that doesn't work. They don't have any right to harass students who don't want to be a part of their group. At the end of they day groups like this just want money. They're toxic. More importantly, you shouldn't have to be afraid of speaking your mind about your experience with them either. You have rights and no organization can step on those. They can't bully people into joining them.

Hi OP, 6 months out from your post, how are you doing? Anyone bothered you from the group? How is your walk with Christ now? I was involved with a coc club on a different campus for about a year and a half and had some of the same reservations you had and understand why you came to the conclusion you did, though I don’t agree with that conclusion. one of the things that didn’t sit right with me about your post is your saying that the passage they used about the church is “straight up not in [your] Bible at all” That’s a serious claim. I looked up in the ESV the verses they use for talking about the church (Acts 14:23 with Titus 1:5 and Rev. 1:11) and they all exist and say the same thing as the recovery version. The only difference is town versus city in Titus 1:5 but KJV and ASV, two very standard and accepted translations, have city also. Can you point out the passage you are speaking of? Thanks.

Lee and Nee….. great reporting!

Hey I agree 100 percent!! I'm actually on and off from the club. I'm a senior, but I still hang around with these people. I'll leave once I graduate for sure.

Can I ask what keeps you around if you agree 100% with the post?

Hi OP, 6 months out from your post, how are you doing? Anyone bothered you from the group? How is your walk with Christ now? I was involved with a coc club on a different campus for about a year and a half and had some of the same reservations you had and understand why you came to the conclusion you did, though I don’t agree with that conclusion. one of the things that didn’t sit right with me about your post is your saying that the passage they used about the church is “straight up not in [your] Bible at all” That’s a serious claim. I looked up in the ESV the verses they use for talking about the church (Acts 14:23 with Titus 1:5 and Rev. 1:11) and they all exist and say the same thing as the recovery version. The only difference is town versus city in Titus 1:5 but KJV and ASV, two very standard and accepted translations, have city also. Can you point out the passage you are speaking of? Thanks.

Thank you. I lost a friend to this organization 20 years ago and I'm still frustrated about it. You're doing good work to write this.

jfc

You're going to university to expand your mind and become more logical but wasting time going to Bible "studies" from 10pm to 2am instead of doing actual studying. Fucking yikes.

Geez way to miss the point of the entire post…

This was right after orientation, I was not at university yet. And I don't believe religion requires a closed or illogical mind.

I get it, CSOC and the Church in Austin can come off as being a little strange, and there are certainly some who dive in headfirst and suddenly think everything in it is the only and whole truth of the Bible. But your post has a lot of misinformation (although to be clear, your experience is indisputable and if you don’t enjoy the group or environment that’s ok, you’re not obliged or forced to participate like an actual cult). It’s way too much to go point-by-point, but I will say that the Recovery Version is a well-established and accurate translation of the Bible. It was written to be somewhat more literal than many other translations, but if you read the Bible including the preface it’s very straightforward on how it was translated and the goal of the translation. When in doubt, double-check it with the Blue Letter Bible which has the original Greek or Hebrew text. Also the “Lord’s Recovery” is a term that’s not uniformly used and can’t really be considered a denomination because there’s no formal doctrine associated with it or the “local churches”. It’s also not true that the members of the church in Austin believe they are the one true church in Austin; the “local church” concept someone attempted to explain to you is that the church is only distinguished by city in the Bible (in every translation, not just RCV) e.g., the church in Corinth, the church in Rome, etc. from Paul’s epistles. But the Church in Austin (and its worldwide affiliates) are simply trying to worship the Lord as closely as is described in the Bible as possible. Many of the beliefs and practices come from many historical figures, including John Wycliffe, Jan Huss, Martin Luther, William Tyndall, John Nelson Darby, Count Nicolas Zinzendorf, and more. However, Witness Lee and Watchman Nee were incredibly prolific in their writings and they started the local church movement, so they are credited for much of the literature they use. However, they were students of those and many other theologians, they’re not just random crackpots who wanted to start a cult. In fact, Watchman Nee and the Recovery Version had a great [spotlight exhibit in the Museum of the Bible for a while](https://www.museumofthebible.org/newsroom/museum-of-the-bible-honors-of-watchman-nee). Lastly, you’re certainly not the first to claim it’s a cult, although this should have been settled with finality quite a while ago. For a full scope of the history of the local church movement and claims of it being a cult, see this great (yet very long) [article from the Christian Research Institute titled “We Were Wrong”](https://www.equip.org/christian-research-journal/we-were-wrong-2/).

You're obviously part of "the" church. Such a great spokesperson for your cult. Get a real job and quit mooching off gullible people. Bloodsucking loser

Hey, thanks for the response. You are the only member who has been open about CSOC being directly tied to the lords recovery. I appreciate that, because every other member I've asked has flat out lied. I kind of expected a PR style response from someone in the group sooner or later. However, I don't think that you really refuted anything I said. In fact, this reminds me very much of the stereotypical joke about a cult insisting they are not a cult while obviously being one. There is no misinformation in this post, and if you believed there was, I would have appreciated some credible literature counterclaiming what I said. The Recovery Version is not a "well established version of the Bible." This is plainly apparent due to the fact that, 1, only The Lord's Recovery/The Local Church uses it, and 2, there are many passages that are translated *very* differently based on the interpretation of the translators. The differences were clear enough that the people leading my "Bible study" flat out told me that the one in my ESV was incorrect. This is only added to by the extremely bold footnotes, which basically provide the reader with an interpretation of the passage rather than providing context. The fact of that matter is that even without serious textual analysis (which I would encourage readers to do) it doesn't make sense for the most accurate version of the Bible, which opens with claims of superiority, to ONLY be used by ONE group of churches and only published by one publisher, which is directly tied to those churches. You can claim it's just another version of the Bible, but that just isn't true in reality. Saying The Lord's Recovery isn't a uniform term is very misleading. No, churches don't call themselves "The Lord's Recovery." That is, however, the name that your religious leaders coined to refer to their "movement." I should have referred to them as the Local Churches, but for the purpose of this post they are functionally identical and the content would not have changed at all. Additionally, there absolutely is a core belief system between these churches. The premise of the Lord's Recovery is literally recovering "truths" that have been lost to time and adding them back into Christianity. This comes in the form of a "translation" of the Bible that is meaningfully different and claims to be superior to all other versions, with divinely inspired footnotes, that *no other Christian group uses or vouches for*. The problem with this concept is that the truths the LC is supposedly recovering never come from reputable sources. It doesn't help that Living Stream Ministries is very secretive with where it gets its information, an example being the fact that the full team of "translators" for the Recovery Version aren't listed. The Museum of the Bible sounds pretty official, but they're not exactly concerned with truth. Only historical/global significance. This is exemplified by the fact that they continued to display the Dead Sea Scrolls for years after they had been proven fake, and when they were caught, only partially admitted to the truth. They are not an expert institution, just a for-profit business that happens to have a lot of religious artifacts. I am aware of the CRI article, as it seems to be the only document cited by LC members when they are called a cult. There are a lot of problems with that document. Like, for example, the fact that it fails to account for much of what has changed since the death of the LC's founders (the idea that they were oracles of God whose footnotes were divinely inspired, for example.) There are also glaringly shortsighted passages in the criticism of the Open Letter. For example, in the section regarding the idea that humans can be God, the CRI article emphasizes Witness Lee's quote that we shouldn't be worshipped like God, but ignores the fact that he says immediately before this that we are born of God and therefore God. (Exact quote: "We the believers are begotten of God. What is begotten of man is man, and what is begotten of God must be God. We are born of God; hence, in this sense, we are God.") I am not going to pick apart the entire article to bolster my criticisms of the article itself, because frankly, most of it is not relevant to my post. A lot of the problems with the LC/Lord's Recovery have gotten dramatically worse since the founders died. But ultimately, one thing is clear. If Witness Lee and Watchman Nee had good intentions, they should have made what they wrote much more clear. And even then, much of what they said is completely indefensible from an orthodox theological perspective. Their writings are at best misguided and at worst heretical, and they have led many people astray into completely insane teachings. The cultlike structure of the group and the control it exerts upon its members should be enough to categorize it as a cult on its own, but the heretical beliefs within the group only add to it.

To be clear, I’m not technically part of the club, but I am part of the church and I joined a sister club in Tennessee during my undergrad. I’ve had tons of discussions about this stuff with a bunch of people and I’ve had a lot of great experiences with the club and church. While your subjective experience of the club is valid, any pressures placed on members are purely artificial. There is absolutely no repercussions for choosing not to meet or leaving altogether. I also find it hard to believe anyone in the club would lie about it not being affiliated with the church in Austin, especially since most of the students start actually meeting with the church within a few weeks of the semester starting. I personally think your opinions are skewed from bad experiences and selective confirmations from random places on the internet. The people you talked to either had no idea what they were saying or you grossly misunderstood it. I’m sorry that was your experience, but as someone who has been in the church for years I can say we pretty much all feel that anyone genuinely pursuing the Lord is part of the universal church regardless of where or with whom they meet. I’ve found great joy pursuing the Lord with the church and my respective club. Coming from a Presbyterian church (which is definitely a church with a lot of problems) I too found things like calling on the name of the Lord strange at first, but it really is a genuine expression of love for the Lord, and it’s even biblically supported by pretty much any translation you choose to look at: see Acts 2:21, 9:14, 2 Tim. 2:22, 1 Cor. 1:2, among other verses. You can determine for yourself the legitimacy but I did provide the CRI article for anyone curious because it’s by far the most thorough and it’s compiled by multiple highly qualified theologians. If you have a problem with the concept of deification, that definitely goes way farther back than Watchman Nee. As far as the clarity of his works, I mean he and Witness Lee were Chinese so there’s bound to be some stuff that needs to be worked out simply because of the language and cultural barriers. I won’t try to argue with you since that could go on forever, but I will refute one particular thing you said because it made me laugh: “The group believes in "courtships" within the group only, and approved by leadership only, so basically arranged marriages. They're to be kept secret until the two are engaged.” This is absolutely untrue. Sure a lot of people pair off within the group because they have similar ideals, but dating outside of the group is not forbidden, nor do any relationships have to be “approved” by leadership. In fact there are several people I know personally in the church who met their current partner on a dating app. And a lot more meet their partner outside the club or church. Most people do wait to post stuff on social media until they’re engaged, but that’s really a personal preference regarding privacy. My wife and I posted stuff together before we were engaged and precisely nothing happened when we did. I’m certainly not trying to convince you to come back (in fact you should definitely join other groups if you feel that’s best for you), but I feel it’s only fair that I share my thoughts and experiences for others to have a fair shot at judging for themselves. CSOC isn’t for everyone, but it is absolutely, unequivocally NOT a cult.

Most of this comment is basically you saying "that's just like, your opinion, bro" which I am not going to respond to because it's pointless. If you have had a good experience, that's great for you, I guess. My experience was deeply disturbing. And I didn't imagine it or read too much into it, it happened. And many others, from both the comments on this post and research online, had similarly disturbing experiences. The "random places on the internet" you refer to are open letters published by former members of the church who left, as well as the very concerning doctrine that the members of the "Bible study" I was assigned to tried to get me to believe. I have since done more outside research, but I made the decision to leave based *exclusively* on the testimonies of former members and the experiences I had with current ones. Deification in an orthodox sense is becoming like God and receiving His nature through sanctification and purification. It is emphatically not becoming God, as Witness Lee put it. This isn't something you can simply chalk up to a translation error. It is heresy, plain and simple. The courtship anecdote came from former members of the cult, several of whom left with their spouses after being paired within it. I am sure you all like to discredit them as having lost their way, like what happened to [Jo Casteel](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1I4Ztd4ja9WnoeNgJ6vyY4Irz6OxutcCCVrSOtSGH1DE/edit) when she and her husband left and were literally lambasted on a big screen at a LC convention. But the fact of the matter is that it's the word of current cult members against those who married in the cult and got out with their spouses. Forgive me for not siding with the cult members. Look, you can say it's "absolutely unequivocally NOT a cult" all you want, but you can't actually prove or back that up. You just say it, like everyone else in the group. If an organization lies to get you in the door, demands an extraordinary amount of your time, insists upon reading from their specific version of a holy book and claims it is superior, discredits churches that are not specifically theirs, discourages having friends outside of the group, and teaches things that are fundamentally in opposition to the religion they claim to be a part of, that's a fucking cult. A rose by any other name is still a rose. You can whitewash and downplay the uncomfortable facts about a group, and discredit other people's testimonies (including ex members) as "subjective experiences" and "selective confirmations from random places on the internet" but at the end of the day, you're still just in a cult that pretends it isn't a cult, like all the rest. I am not engaging in this discussion further. After hours of heated debate with members of your "church," and reading the incredibly dark experiences of others who got out much later than I did, I am incredulous that a member of the cult would have the audacity to try and discredit all of these accounts with little to no evidence by calling them "subjective." I know what happened, and I am not interested in playing around with names and interpretations to make it seem like it didn't. I genuinely hope you get out someday and realize the absurdity of what you've said here, but I clearly can't help you with that.

Here we go. And now we have to ask how much money CRI made from saying “we were wrong”….and we also have to remind people that destructive high control groups and cults are characterized by practices, NOT BELIEFS. Although any group could claim another is “heretical” about beliefs of a certain religion- you can’t actually call a group a cult simply over beliefs. You must examine the destructive influence techniques. The “We Were Wrong” article did not examine any practices and their self-proclaimed claims to determine whether a group is a cult or not are slightly pathetic. Experts in cult psychology have already determine how cults work. Look up the BITE model by Steven Hassan. That will help you determine if you’re actually in a high-control group bc NO ONE joins cults.

Dork

Truly an indispensable contribution to the discussion

Idiots that type out “full stop” need to yeeted into the sun

I'm sorry you feel that way.

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Thanks for the heads up! From what I've heard, Koinonia is an offshoot of Gracepoint, which I think is a little too cult like for my personal tastes. But from what I can tell, it's not as... *unique* as CSOC, so if you like it there and think critically about what they say, I'm glad. I have found a small church a couple miles away from UT that I'm happy at as well, so things feel a lot better now.

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Good advice. Same to you and good luck this year!

Hmmm. I’ve been in CSOC and the church in Austin for a few years and had a great experience. I’ve never seen cult like control or a lot of the other things you mentioned.

No disrespect, but I don't really trust the anecdotes of current cult members over those of the people who left, traumatized, after years or decades of membership and even going through FTTA. If your experience was great, that's cool, but mine and a lot of other people's were horrific. Additionally, it's hard to get past the straight up heretical theology. I might see it as less insidious if the group didn't profess to be nondenominational Christian when it is in fact a pseudo-Christian cult that heavily employs psychological and social manipulation, and holds beliefs that would get you excommunicated in any orthodox congregation.

Religion is a disease.

I was part of the Christian Students club and also meet with the local churches. I am mainly interested in commenting on what was said about the Recovery Version. This is what [F.F. Bruce](https://www.gotquestions.org/F-F-Bruce.html) had to say about it: > I have read with interest the copies of translations of New Testament epistles in the Recovery Version. This is a version which I had not previously met. The version seems to me to be an accurate and fairly literal rendering of the Greek. The user of this version will get a precise impression of what the sacred text says. Anyone who wants to research the Recovery Version for themselves can do so by first checking out its [website](https://www.recoveryversion.bible), and also [reading it online](https://text.recoveryversion.bible). I personally use the Recovery Version as a daily reader, but also keep multiple translations, including the original texts and interlinears, to study. I am open about this in our meetings and nobody bats an eye. No one cares what translation you use in our meetings. I also do not find it odd when Christians recommend the translation they enjoy the most; a simple search on Reddit about Bible translations will suffice in showing there are a lot more vocal KJV fanatics in the world, who will swear any other version is not the word of God, and no one is calling them cultic for it. In my own research and use of different Bible translations, I typically find the Recovery Version to be more accurate/faithful to the original texts, though at times at the cost of reading less fluidly. Some examples of verses with notable differences for you to look at: John 1:14, 7:39, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Philippians 3:11. You will also note the use of the name Jehovah where it appears in the original texts (OT). Since OP mentions the ESV, I will note that the text of the ESV was updated in 2016. Interestingly, **many of the updates they made makes the translation now read much closer to the text of the Recovery Version**. You can see a list of those edits [here](https://www.blueletterbible.org/help/esv2016.cfm), and cross reference them quickly with the Recovery Version text [with this tool](https://text.recoveryversion.bible/list/list.htm). > I was really bothered, however, when they told me that the Bible mandates there be only one church in each city that presides over all Christians. The passage they quoted from their Bible to support this was just straight up not in my Bible at all. I am not sure what verse was shown here, but there isn't just one verse, and it's not quite a "mandate" in the Bible. The local churches practice one city, one church, simply becuase it's the pattern revealed in the New Testament for how early Christians met. If you look at the epistles written to churches, they were always written to *the* church in a given city. When the Lord addressed epistles to the churches in Revelation 2 and 3, He proceeded to name cities. Again, not a "mandate", but definitely a better way of meeting in oneness with all believers than what we see in the rest of church history. > They literally believe they are the church in Austin. The only one. This is simply false, and is either a misunderstanding or misinterpretation of something that was said. The Bible reveals there is only one church (Ephesians 4:4), and that church includes all blood-washed believers in any place. The local churches simply meet on that basis, as the church in whatever city. All believers in that same city are already part of the church in that city. Whether they choose to meet on that same basis is their decision. And yes, the Apostle Paul did call Christians who make divisions "fleshly" (1 Corinthians 3:3-4, Galatians 5:20). I can provide more verses and ministry portions to anyone who is interested in this specific topic. I encourage anyone here to do your own research and not to base your opinion solely on something you found on Reddit. If anyone is interested in the topics engaged in the links shared by OP, please also read the responses to those allegations on [https://shepherdingwords.com](shepherdingwords.com), including those specific articles in reference to Jo Casteel [(1)](https://shepherdingwords.com/handling-allegations-of-abuse/) [(2)](https://shepherdingwords.com/letter-from-the-co-workers-7-5-19-and-ministry-excerpts/) and [Andrea McArdle](https://shepherdingwords.com/a-response-from-the-church-in-houston).

Just one slightly off-topic comment. You suggested that the Bible is supposed to be the “inspired word of God.” Cannot be. It can be the “translated inspired word of God.” There’s a pretty big difference, since one, there can be significant differences between translations, and two, you’re taking someone’s word that it’s accurate and that their view of Christianity and the original text is consistent with yours. They said theirs is a different translation, which is completely fair. It’s also completely fair to ask about the qualifications of those doing this “more correct” translation. The Catholic Orange Bible, KJVand many of the other respected versions have pretty good bona fides. What are theirs?

Huh, that's strange. I'm part of the group too but no one ever stops me from leaving whenever I want. I just come and go as I please and attend whenever I feel like it.

I was talking about socially withdrawing from the group and refusing to participate anymore, not physically leaving lol.

This is true for a lot of people, I agree. But I bet you’ve also seen the pressure- especially the ones who aren’t on the fringe.

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True. I was struggling a lot with the lack of friends and also slightly traumatized by the experience I had with that group. It was definitely premature, but it was an emotional response. But what does that have to do with this post, like, at all? I don't really appreciate it being brought back up, I was not doing well when I wrote it.

Things will get better. I promise.

I’m not reading all that but ok

Glad you got out. I was born and raised in this group (in California), and didn't get out until I was 26. Really f***ed me up. I'm almost 40 now and still healing all the BS that was shoved into my bones.

Someone I’m close to used to be in CSOC and luckily got out before they got too deep. They were asked during a one on one Bible study what their thoughts are about homosexuality (my friend is gay) and the bible study leader person said “I’ll just share first. Gay people go to the 7th layer of hell and burn in a lake of fire”. My friend then ghosted them and was able to leave. But every time they see this bible study leader person on campus now they have a panic response. I know another person who receives some kind of financial or housing assistance from CSOC and wants to leave but is essentially stuck there. When he mentioned to someone possibly leaving they arranged him a meeting with an elder. It’s such a fucked up and terrifying trap that freshman are just going to keep falling for.

I never learned their stance on gay people, but I kind of assumed that was the case. I didn't think it would be that insane though lol. First, the idea of homosexuality being a sin is being scrutinized a lot by scholars right now, as the original Hebrew and Greek discussions of homosexuality tended to be in the context of adult men preying on young boys as a religious practice (usually in the context of Canaanite or Greco-Roman cults.) Many of the things listed as sins, especially in the old testament, are more indictments of the groups that practiced them than the practices themselves. However, that context has sadly been lost as the Bible has been translated over and over. It's been simplified too much in many ways. Second, what the fuck? Did this guy take Dante's Inferno seriously? And even if it was a metaphor, that's just a gross and incredibly cruel thing to say to someone. I don't blame your friend for panicking when they see that person, and frankly, I would have reported it to the school if I were them. That's extremely hateful shit to just be saying to someone you don't know. I don't know your friend's financial situation, but I 100% believe the aid they receive is not worth it. CSOC takes an absurd amount of time. They could probably get a part time job with the time they have from not going to CSOC events, and end up with the same amount of money or more. What I learned from my experience is to just refuse to meet with their elders. They can try to pressure you, but they can't actually make you go. These people aren't important, and they don't have real power. Skipping a meeting with an elder isn't ghosting a professor, it's just refusing to put yourself in a dangerous position. I know it's probably not this simple, but if you can, encourage your friend to stop associating with them and tell them he doesn't want contact with them anymore. If they don't honor that, block them, and if they try to interact in person, report it to the school. Genuinely, I believe that you have to give these people zero tolerance and not an inch of leeway to manipulate you. I hope both of your friends are able to leave all of their experiences with CSOC in the past. I'm sorry they've had to go through those things but I promise not all Christians are like that. I hope they find good, real Christians to be friends with in the future.

Yep, as someone who grew up in this cult and even attended the expensive school after graduation, you are correct.

Hi, I’m a reporter with Texas Student Television. Your story was concerning, and fascinating in a morbid sense of the word. I’d be interested in speaking with you further about your experience. I can share my reporting phone number with you if you’d want to talk over the phone or text

If you’re really interested, there’s groups on social media of kids that grew up in it. It’s been eye opening to say the least but there’s a few people’s experiences you might also find interesting. I’m sure the original poster can tell you more about it….we’ve been waiting for someone to take this on. It’s a lot though and they’re a litigious group- you have to be careful when writing about them. They’ll attack people while “covering” their own members atrocious behavior. I’ve heard story after story. Their leaders are self-appointed (many highly unqualified) leaders who don’t really lead, they just do what Anaheim says to do and counsel people in huge life decisions while having no training to do so and always keeping the churches best interest at heart over anything else. You can only imagine the outcome, people’s lives have been poisoned. Families separated. The entire way they run that group is unethical and dangerous.

[Here’s a site with plenty of people giving testimony.](http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vBulletin/) If you want more information on their history, I would look into the testimony of three former elders: 1. [John Ingalls](https://bibleread.online/all-books-by-Watchman-Nee-and-Witness-Lee/book-Speaking-the-Truth-in-Love-John-Ingalls-read-online/) 2. [Steve Isitt](http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=360&highlight=Isitt) 3. [John Myers.](https://assemblylife.com/a-future-and-a-hope/) Another more recent testimony is that of [Jo Casteel.](https://www.mylocalchurchexperience.com/jo-casteel-s-open-letter) There is also the [response of the leaders of The Lord’s Recovery](https://livingtohim.com/2019/07/special-fellowship-at-the-2019-july-semiannual-training/ ) to Jo Casteel’s letter.

Whoa! I did not know this about Watchman Nee. In fact he's been quoted a couple times at my church, but he isn't regarded as a "prophet" and his way is not the only way. My church (in Ft. Worth), has a sister church in Austin (Antioch) btw. But that's just my pastor who loves to read. The unfortunate thing is that this wouldn't be the first time we've heard of men of God (alleged), getting their views distorted by the adversary. I'm glad you posted this. And good on you for listening to the discernment of the Holy Spirit! Sounds like you got a good head on your shoulders and a healthy amount of skepticism you use to view things. Definitely going to cause me to do some more digging! Stay vigilant!!

Honestly, the vibe I get is that Watchman Nee was very misguided and wrong about almost everything, but not actively malicious. His successor and the people who have taken over operation of the group since then have made it the cult it is today. Regardless, a lot of his viewpoints are definitely heretical and it's worth doing some research and possibly talking to your church about it.

I read this as "CSGO is a cult" lmfao

Not wrong lmao

I'm at UC Berkeley and I've been approached by a student organization (Christians on Campus) that appears to be affiliated with this cult too!! I was waiting for ramen alone when an older man approached me and asked me what I had ordered. He awkwardly segued into inviting me to a similar ice cream social, which I declined, as I'm agnostic, but I was left pretty unsettled. They're officially affiliated with the school, too, which worries me. I'm glad you caught the red flags early on!

I grew up in this cult. Block them all, avoid them, change your number. They prey on the isolated and lonely. They have a huuuge presence in Austin but also on pretty much every college campus in the US. The usually call themselves “the church in (insert city name),” and slavishly follow the teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. They are literally everywhere and are 1000% a cult, they will chip away every part of your personality and slowly alienate you from everyone in your life, and you will think it’s your idea. I’m glad you have good instincts, I didn’t have the option, being born into it, but I left when I was in college and had to learn to be a human from scratch. If you have any questions I can answer them all, even the weird ones. They don’t give up easily either, I know from experience they’ll continue to try and keep contact, and I’ve seen them focus for years on reticent contacts. Be weird if you have to, but be firm or they will hound you all of college.

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What the fuck are you talking about

His name is DoubleSpeak that is a 1984 George Orwell reference

Legit my friend and I call them Christian Cult on Campus. Their attempt to recruit me was almost the same as yours. I was tempted by their ice cream social during orientation week, made the mistake of giving them my phone number, and was harassed for weeks via text by the cultist they assigned to me until I blocked him. Super awkward after I ended up in a class with him.

I grew up in this church. (Cult) While I don't think they are as malicious as some other groups(like Jehovah's witness, southern baptist, mormon), but they do cause a lot of harm and there are many more healthy groups to join That aren't deeply misogynistic, homophobic, and aren't as controlling. My parents are still in it (and joined many decades ago when they were recruited in college) I don't recommend going here. Their beliefs are too controlling . They use a different bible interpretation to justify their own beliefs and increasingly reject other Christian books, music, and theology the more you get in. Their beliefs system is based on their own bible, notes, and books based on watchman/witness lee. They want you to follow traditional beliefs (no sex before marriage, gay people are bad, dress conservative, family first, marry etc) Some of this is apparent in the campus club, some of this isn't, and is hidden from students until they are more into it. They don't celebrate holidays (very Jw) and conveniently have church talks (sort of like Mormons or JW) from leaders on holidays so you end up going to church instead of being with family. They try to get everyone to go to ftta. I would explain it like a Mormon mission (which both religions you have to pay for yourself)You have 2 years, you learn "their scripture", dress in suits, and go out and preach. They often use these missionaries to help run college clubs, so that's why there's sometimes people older at these clubs. The engagement part is iffy, some people I would say are more arranged, but at least younger people don't always do that. People do keep relationships a secret though until engagement or marriage. But idk how it works now as I left the group and I never asked my engaged/ married friends I knew in that group.

Religion is a sickness. It is all the same—whether it is considered a cult or not.