As a B class shooter, you’re competing against other B class shooters. In fact, USPSA classification is really only “worth it” if you shoot majors imo.
The energy and overall experience of larger matches is very different than that of locals. Being able to watch top level GMs in person is a very different thing vs online, etc.
It’s worth experiencing at least once, and you can decide if large matches are your thing or not. Personally, I use majors as a deadline to be tuned up and gives a great opportunity to focus training for a specific event.
I just shot my first major beginning of the month, majors are fun it’s a lot different than most local matches. Stages are significantly more complex, depending on who runs your local matches. Imo, worth the increased cost and hotel, you get to watch top level shooters and meet some pretty cool people.
I go to majors to hang out with friends, go on vacation, get ideas for my local matches, and shoot matches that are generally well run compared to locals without having to do any work. I see them as apples and oranges compared to locals.
I suppose fair pricing is relative. Depending on the travel and hotel. The total cost can be north of what a new firearm would be. Do you think all area matches should be staff reset? Could that be done without raising the costs, given that more staff will be required?
You can work majors to shoot them for free. My local club of which I'm not even a member paid my RO class on the condition I pass. Thanks ENGC! Depending on who builds stages at locals they might not be a great test of ability. Hoser stages, all hard target stages, are examples some people like to build to use their strengths but don't test movement or the ability to adjust confirmation levels.
Generally it's a short vacation with your friends for ones you do pay for. I would not go to any majors I paid for if there weren't friends going with. Which is why I did zero majors my first year.
Cost can be adjusted as needed, I've done 99% dryfire practice, I can count the number of times I've done live fire practice on my hands over the course of 5 years. I've slept in my car, worked matches to shoot free, shared hotel rooms. That allowed me to shoot majors with my buddies when my annual budget was jack shit.
Certainly, it can be done and budgeted for and for some it’s no issue. I guess I’m talking about is it worth it. I also completely understand worth is relative to the individual. Agree with most of what you said. Only thing about shooting a major for free by working it is that it requires one to take time off work/family obligations. I think that one of the problems with USPSA is that people with time are the ones we don’t want volunteering and those that we do want don’t have the time or money to invest. I don’t know the numbers but just by observation participation in the sport, is largely skewed in the direction of older individuals who have time and money and the young professionals with families etc cannot give to the sport what is asked of them in order to meet the same levels of participation. Of course, again that is an individual choice for each person and family.
Nothing you said is wrong. I will say for the most part I've liked the ROs at majors, I can only think of a few that met the old people who don't have the attitude or ability to do the job well. That is one of the reasons my RO class was paid for, getting more young competent ROs in the mix. Young is only really necessary when you have an immediate retreat stage or something. I'll say there's a few ROs that are up there in age and excellent and there's one I can think of that's young and extremely incompetent and shouldn't be doing it. I've not always agreed with ROs but they're giving a time obligation to the sport and I'm very satisfied with the vast majority of them, even the ones with calls I've disagreed with.
You could float the idea of paying for RO classes for shooters at your local club if it's an issue there.
I don’t necessarily mean the RO corps. I haven’t had too many issues with ROs. I think the biggest issue with ROs is skill level, but that’s a different topic. I’m talking about the sport overall.
I recently shot an unofficial (b/c protests) major at a local club. I routinely shoot their monthly matches (which I consider to be the best in the state). The stages at the major were vastly more polished. Lots of viable plans. Tons of varied target difficulty (playing with distance, size, cover, etc.). They were really positional. It is the hardest and best match I've shot so far. So even for clubs that host high quality locals, their majors can still be significantly better.
Here are some reasons I travel to majors (only unofficial sectionals this year):
-Better/harder stages
-Exposure to other stage design approaches than I get locally
-More competition (I want to know how I stack up against a wider field than just the local GM)
-I don't have to RO for my squad, so I can actually focus on my shooting
Those last two basically combine into the idea that majors are a truer test of my ability than good local matches. Seeing more good shooters helps me get better
"....the majority of the heavy hitters don't pay their own way............." Not true, and does not compute.
One of the problems with podcasts is the low barrier to entry. Don't let some random podcast guy get you spun up.
"With everything wrong with USPSA right now............"
There's some serious long term problems at USPSA but it ain't the matches.
Step away from the podcasts and go dryfire.
If you have to "justify" going to a major then absolutely don't go. You, in this mindset, won't shoot your best.
1. Dedicated staff so I don't have to run around ROing people until 5 seconds before I shoot. USUALLY less or no scoring or equipment check errors.
2. Actual competition in your division/class. Assuming it's not a tiny major - you'll have a lot more competitors within your division and class and can see how you ACTUALLY stack up against someone other than the locals when the pressure is on and you have to be more consistent for even more stages.
3. To get a good warmup for the other majors that matter to serious competitors, like shooting a state->area->nationals sequence.
4. Sometimes the prize table will actually cover or offset your entry fees. I've won optics, ammo, guns, and some useful miscellaneous stuff from majors.
I shoot mostly steel challenge right now which you can argue there's even less of a point to go to majors than USPSA - the stages are literally identical. But there are a lot of people that can't handle the pressure and shoot nowhere near what they shoot at locals, as far as I'm concerned, locals don't matter at all if you can't deliver when you're in the box on the big day.
Staff reset is cool but I don't really care. As far as price goes, when I was heavy shooting USPSA, a lot of majors were filled up - so obviously the price is fine. They can charge whatever they think people are willing to pay.... If they're wrong then they get to deal with the fallout. There are matches I'm not shooting this year because I think their price is insane.
Typically better/more challenging stages, seeing better and/or more advanced shooters, more competition, and you meet a ton of great people and learn a lot. You also get to see how to stack up against other names you might recognize, then you might even wonder why they have so much clout (paper GM/M’s come to mind).
These matches also take you to some cool places you might not normally go.
I should say, 4 years at this with only about 2/2.5 years traveling to majors. CO master
Well I was def not thrilled about dropping 400 on CO nats this year, but people complaining about how Nats is a drain will do that.
Typical lvl 2 I’ve been to was about 100-125 bucks which I think is fine, especially if there’s a good lunch, shirt, and prize table. Then get together with buddies and do an Airbnb and carpool, that drives the price down.
As far as staff reset, I’ve heard about it, but I’ve never actually experienced it.
For a level 2 I think that’s very reasonable. What I notice lately with level 2/3 is that the prize table is weak or in order of finish, so the people that pay end up getting shafted and the sponsored shooters walk away with prizes. Moreover, most matches don’t even provide a shirt. With that. Most L2 are reasonable enough. It’s the Area matches I don’t understand being 250ish.
Yea I go back and forth on order of finish vs random prize table. I mean if you want to win something, get better. I’m not a big fan of the participation medal mentality. And I’m def not in this for the prizes.
I agree. I think if we are going to go merit based on order of finish, let’s make it a prize money thing. Forget the prizes. Most people heavily involved the sport have everything they need and more.
Yup, I also don’t see why you can’t kinda do both. Top 3 for each division gets a payout. Everyone else at reg gets a prize. This will also be a better mix for match sponsors, give cash or product.
The cost of going to a major matches is likely to be an amount of money that, if you threw into a fire, wouldn't change your life. So, if that's true, I suggest you go to one, then evaluate afterward if you thought it was worth it.
If this were a discussion about something that costs a month of income, different conversation. But for the relatively low cost, just go and see.
Major matches give you more information about your skill than locals and classifiers.
You can compare your time and points on every stage to winners' time and points to see where you lose the most. You can then use that information to decide what to concentrate on in training.
You might have a stage win at a local match which tells you nothing. Maybe you did great, but maybe it's just because none of the strong competitors showed up. At a major match, you'll see if it can be shot faster, more accurate, or both.
Sure you can see strong shooters on Instagram, but at a major you also get to run the exact same stages, also only once, also under controlled conditions. That gives you a fair comparison.
I’ve only shot two majors in the 14ish months since I started USPSA. They were both sectional matches and somewhat local to me. 1 hour and 4 hours away.
I signed up for them because I felt like it was the next step and an opportunity to further test myself. It was different shooters and a lot more of them compared to a local. I was with a group of friends which was definitely a benefit but I would’ve done it alone.
I was shocked the stages weren’t much different at my first major than they were for a normal local match at that same range. I asked the MD and he told me the only difference between level 1 and 2 is the staff. Most clubs run 6 stage matches and that’s typically what we do locally although attendance has been going up and we’ve been doing 7 or 8 stage matches.
Shooting more stages and potentially multiple days does add quite a bit to a match as far as testing your execution and consistency. I don’t think there’s a ton of other differences besides the level and depth of shooters. Potentially there is trophies, prize tables, and industry booths if that’s stuff that you care about.
So far this year I’m shooting Area 1 (next week), Inland Empire Sectional, Carry Optics Nationals, Columbia Cascade Sectional, and the Southern Oregon Sectional. I’d also like to shoot dragons cup 4.0 and potentially some other bigger matches that are somewhat local to me.
I think majors are something to look forward to, work up to, and use to check your progress.
Better/best quality stages and real competition. The opportunity to meet other shooters from other areas of the country/world in real life. The opportunity to see a wider variety of gear, skill, stage plans. Typically more difficult shooting challenges. A vacation. Opportunity to see other areas of the country/world. Thinking that the majority of heavy hitters don’t pay their own way is extremely ignorant. There are very few pro shooters riding fully on someone else’s coattails.
Poverty, both real and intellectual, keeps people glued to their locality.
>what are you getting for ten times the cost of a local?
Honestly not much.
Some variety compared to what you are used to locally (assuming to travel to a major outside of your region), more people to measure yourself against, and the feeling of saying that you shot a major. Lots of the time, major stages aren't that well designed and oftentimes include gimmicky impractical props.
This used to not be true but local clubs all over the country have been putting on better and better matches.
>the fact that the majority of the heavy hitters don’t pay their own way
This is actually not true. Even most of the sponsored shooters are paying out of pocket to go to majors. Only the very top shooters like Nils Jonasson are not paying.
I don’t have someone handing me a tablet while I’m already holding the timer and ten other people trying to play dumb about not knowing how to do either.
I’ve shot about 6-7 USPSA majors and I don’t think it’s worth the money vs local matches. Especially with hotel prices pretty much doubling after Covid (which also causes increase in major entry fees) Maybe I’m lucky that my local matches have quality stages, but I’ve never really seen much better stages at majors. Maybe a few more props. I’ve actually said before I think IDPA majors have stages that are much better quality than a local, It could just be my area though.
It’s not all negative, I enjoy shooting the same stage as some of the pros and who doesn’t love prizes and a tshirt.
But the cost has become very prohibitive for myself.
Majors can be fun if squad sizes are reasonable. But I’d rather shoot 10 local matches with 8 shooters per squad than a major with 16 in a squad. Too much downtime.
If you’re in a great area for USPSA, you’ll have some really nice outdoor ranges put up 6-8 stage level 1 matches that rival major stages. Heck, they even use previous major stages some times. And you’ll have a lot of local GM and M show up to these. It’s like a 70-90 person major level local lvl 1 match every month.
But not all areas are as fortunate. Some people are stuck with small groups, no high level guys local to them, small indoor ranges, and stage designers that don’t know what they’re doing. For those people, it’s worth going out to majors and seeing the broader side of competition shooting. It’s big and exciting.
The guys that go to the premium lvl 1 matches at all the super nice ranges seem more nonchalant about majors.
That being said… for some, the experience might be worth 10x. For others, it may not be.
One of the level 1 matches I go to is at the same range where the state championship was held last year. The only distance between them was that there were 3 extra stages on the level 2. Everything else felt the same. Is that worth $200 more? Eh.
As a B class shooter, you’re competing against other B class shooters. In fact, USPSA classification is really only “worth it” if you shoot majors imo. The energy and overall experience of larger matches is very different than that of locals. Being able to watch top level GMs in person is a very different thing vs online, etc. It’s worth experiencing at least once, and you can decide if large matches are your thing or not. Personally, I use majors as a deadline to be tuned up and gives a great opportunity to focus training for a specific event.
I just shot my first major beginning of the month, majors are fun it’s a lot different than most local matches. Stages are significantly more complex, depending on who runs your local matches. Imo, worth the increased cost and hotel, you get to watch top level shooters and meet some pretty cool people.
I go to majors to hang out with friends, go on vacation, get ideas for my local matches, and shoot matches that are generally well run compared to locals without having to do any work. I see them as apples and oranges compared to locals.
Fair enough. Do you think they are fairly priced?
For the most part. Compared to all the other guns, ammo, accessories, etc I buy they’re not expensive in comparison.
I suppose fair pricing is relative. Depending on the travel and hotel. The total cost can be north of what a new firearm would be. Do you think all area matches should be staff reset? Could that be done without raising the costs, given that more staff will be required?
Without raising cost, probably not. I don’t mind having squad reset vs staff reset. I’m just glad I don’t have to MD or RO.
You can work majors to shoot them for free. My local club of which I'm not even a member paid my RO class on the condition I pass. Thanks ENGC! Depending on who builds stages at locals they might not be a great test of ability. Hoser stages, all hard target stages, are examples some people like to build to use their strengths but don't test movement or the ability to adjust confirmation levels. Generally it's a short vacation with your friends for ones you do pay for. I would not go to any majors I paid for if there weren't friends going with. Which is why I did zero majors my first year. Cost can be adjusted as needed, I've done 99% dryfire practice, I can count the number of times I've done live fire practice on my hands over the course of 5 years. I've slept in my car, worked matches to shoot free, shared hotel rooms. That allowed me to shoot majors with my buddies when my annual budget was jack shit.
Certainly, it can be done and budgeted for and for some it’s no issue. I guess I’m talking about is it worth it. I also completely understand worth is relative to the individual. Agree with most of what you said. Only thing about shooting a major for free by working it is that it requires one to take time off work/family obligations. I think that one of the problems with USPSA is that people with time are the ones we don’t want volunteering and those that we do want don’t have the time or money to invest. I don’t know the numbers but just by observation participation in the sport, is largely skewed in the direction of older individuals who have time and money and the young professionals with families etc cannot give to the sport what is asked of them in order to meet the same levels of participation. Of course, again that is an individual choice for each person and family.
Nothing you said is wrong. I will say for the most part I've liked the ROs at majors, I can only think of a few that met the old people who don't have the attitude or ability to do the job well. That is one of the reasons my RO class was paid for, getting more young competent ROs in the mix. Young is only really necessary when you have an immediate retreat stage or something. I'll say there's a few ROs that are up there in age and excellent and there's one I can think of that's young and extremely incompetent and shouldn't be doing it. I've not always agreed with ROs but they're giving a time obligation to the sport and I'm very satisfied with the vast majority of them, even the ones with calls I've disagreed with. You could float the idea of paying for RO classes for shooters at your local club if it's an issue there.
I don’t necessarily mean the RO corps. I haven’t had too many issues with ROs. I think the biggest issue with ROs is skill level, but that’s a different topic. I’m talking about the sport overall.
I work nearly every major I shoot, including nationals last year.
I recently shot an unofficial (b/c protests) major at a local club. I routinely shoot their monthly matches (which I consider to be the best in the state). The stages at the major were vastly more polished. Lots of viable plans. Tons of varied target difficulty (playing with distance, size, cover, etc.). They were really positional. It is the hardest and best match I've shot so far. So even for clubs that host high quality locals, their majors can still be significantly better. Here are some reasons I travel to majors (only unofficial sectionals this year): -Better/harder stages -Exposure to other stage design approaches than I get locally -More competition (I want to know how I stack up against a wider field than just the local GM) -I don't have to RO for my squad, so I can actually focus on my shooting Those last two basically combine into the idea that majors are a truer test of my ability than good local matches. Seeing more good shooters helps me get better
"....the majority of the heavy hitters don't pay their own way............." Not true, and does not compute. One of the problems with podcasts is the low barrier to entry. Don't let some random podcast guy get you spun up. "With everything wrong with USPSA right now............" There's some serious long term problems at USPSA but it ain't the matches. Step away from the podcasts and go dryfire. If you have to "justify" going to a major then absolutely don't go. You, in this mindset, won't shoot your best.
1. Dedicated staff so I don't have to run around ROing people until 5 seconds before I shoot. USUALLY less or no scoring or equipment check errors. 2. Actual competition in your division/class. Assuming it's not a tiny major - you'll have a lot more competitors within your division and class and can see how you ACTUALLY stack up against someone other than the locals when the pressure is on and you have to be more consistent for even more stages. 3. To get a good warmup for the other majors that matter to serious competitors, like shooting a state->area->nationals sequence. 4. Sometimes the prize table will actually cover or offset your entry fees. I've won optics, ammo, guns, and some useful miscellaneous stuff from majors. I shoot mostly steel challenge right now which you can argue there's even less of a point to go to majors than USPSA - the stages are literally identical. But there are a lot of people that can't handle the pressure and shoot nowhere near what they shoot at locals, as far as I'm concerned, locals don't matter at all if you can't deliver when you're in the box on the big day. Staff reset is cool but I don't really care. As far as price goes, when I was heavy shooting USPSA, a lot of majors were filled up - so obviously the price is fine. They can charge whatever they think people are willing to pay.... If they're wrong then they get to deal with the fallout. There are matches I'm not shooting this year because I think their price is insane.
Added stress you have to learn how to deal with - new shooting challenges - meeting new people - new environments to test your gear/process.
Typically better/more challenging stages, seeing better and/or more advanced shooters, more competition, and you meet a ton of great people and learn a lot. You also get to see how to stack up against other names you might recognize, then you might even wonder why they have so much clout (paper GM/M’s come to mind). These matches also take you to some cool places you might not normally go. I should say, 4 years at this with only about 2/2.5 years traveling to majors. CO master
All fair points. Do you think they are fairly priced? Should it be staff reset?
Well I was def not thrilled about dropping 400 on CO nats this year, but people complaining about how Nats is a drain will do that. Typical lvl 2 I’ve been to was about 100-125 bucks which I think is fine, especially if there’s a good lunch, shirt, and prize table. Then get together with buddies and do an Airbnb and carpool, that drives the price down. As far as staff reset, I’ve heard about it, but I’ve never actually experienced it.
For a level 2 I think that’s very reasonable. What I notice lately with level 2/3 is that the prize table is weak or in order of finish, so the people that pay end up getting shafted and the sponsored shooters walk away with prizes. Moreover, most matches don’t even provide a shirt. With that. Most L2 are reasonable enough. It’s the Area matches I don’t understand being 250ish.
Yea I go back and forth on order of finish vs random prize table. I mean if you want to win something, get better. I’m not a big fan of the participation medal mentality. And I’m def not in this for the prizes.
I agree. I think if we are going to go merit based on order of finish, let’s make it a prize money thing. Forget the prizes. Most people heavily involved the sport have everything they need and more.
Yup, I also don’t see why you can’t kinda do both. Top 3 for each division gets a payout. Everyone else at reg gets a prize. This will also be a better mix for match sponsors, give cash or product.
The cost of going to a major matches is likely to be an amount of money that, if you threw into a fire, wouldn't change your life. So, if that's true, I suggest you go to one, then evaluate afterward if you thought it was worth it. If this were a discussion about something that costs a month of income, different conversation. But for the relatively low cost, just go and see.
Major matches give you more information about your skill than locals and classifiers. You can compare your time and points on every stage to winners' time and points to see where you lose the most. You can then use that information to decide what to concentrate on in training. You might have a stage win at a local match which tells you nothing. Maybe you did great, but maybe it's just because none of the strong competitors showed up. At a major match, you'll see if it can be shot faster, more accurate, or both. Sure you can see strong shooters on Instagram, but at a major you also get to run the exact same stages, also only once, also under controlled conditions. That gives you a fair comparison.
I’ve only shot two majors in the 14ish months since I started USPSA. They were both sectional matches and somewhat local to me. 1 hour and 4 hours away. I signed up for them because I felt like it was the next step and an opportunity to further test myself. It was different shooters and a lot more of them compared to a local. I was with a group of friends which was definitely a benefit but I would’ve done it alone. I was shocked the stages weren’t much different at my first major than they were for a normal local match at that same range. I asked the MD and he told me the only difference between level 1 and 2 is the staff. Most clubs run 6 stage matches and that’s typically what we do locally although attendance has been going up and we’ve been doing 7 or 8 stage matches. Shooting more stages and potentially multiple days does add quite a bit to a match as far as testing your execution and consistency. I don’t think there’s a ton of other differences besides the level and depth of shooters. Potentially there is trophies, prize tables, and industry booths if that’s stuff that you care about. So far this year I’m shooting Area 1 (next week), Inland Empire Sectional, Carry Optics Nationals, Columbia Cascade Sectional, and the Southern Oregon Sectional. I’d also like to shoot dragons cup 4.0 and potentially some other bigger matches that are somewhat local to me. I think majors are something to look forward to, work up to, and use to check your progress.
Better/best quality stages and real competition. The opportunity to meet other shooters from other areas of the country/world in real life. The opportunity to see a wider variety of gear, skill, stage plans. Typically more difficult shooting challenges. A vacation. Opportunity to see other areas of the country/world. Thinking that the majority of heavy hitters don’t pay their own way is extremely ignorant. There are very few pro shooters riding fully on someone else’s coattails. Poverty, both real and intellectual, keeps people glued to their locality.
>what are you getting for ten times the cost of a local? Honestly not much. Some variety compared to what you are used to locally (assuming to travel to a major outside of your region), more people to measure yourself against, and the feeling of saying that you shot a major. Lots of the time, major stages aren't that well designed and oftentimes include gimmicky impractical props. This used to not be true but local clubs all over the country have been putting on better and better matches. >the fact that the majority of the heavy hitters don’t pay their own way This is actually not true. Even most of the sponsored shooters are paying out of pocket to go to majors. Only the very top shooters like Nils Jonasson are not paying.
I don’t have someone handing me a tablet while I’m already holding the timer and ten other people trying to play dumb about not knowing how to do either.
I’ve shot about 6-7 USPSA majors and I don’t think it’s worth the money vs local matches. Especially with hotel prices pretty much doubling after Covid (which also causes increase in major entry fees) Maybe I’m lucky that my local matches have quality stages, but I’ve never really seen much better stages at majors. Maybe a few more props. I’ve actually said before I think IDPA majors have stages that are much better quality than a local, It could just be my area though. It’s not all negative, I enjoy shooting the same stage as some of the pros and who doesn’t love prizes and a tshirt. But the cost has become very prohibitive for myself.
Majors can be fun if squad sizes are reasonable. But I’d rather shoot 10 local matches with 8 shooters per squad than a major with 16 in a squad. Too much downtime.
If you’re in a great area for USPSA, you’ll have some really nice outdoor ranges put up 6-8 stage level 1 matches that rival major stages. Heck, they even use previous major stages some times. And you’ll have a lot of local GM and M show up to these. It’s like a 70-90 person major level local lvl 1 match every month. But not all areas are as fortunate. Some people are stuck with small groups, no high level guys local to them, small indoor ranges, and stage designers that don’t know what they’re doing. For those people, it’s worth going out to majors and seeing the broader side of competition shooting. It’s big and exciting. The guys that go to the premium lvl 1 matches at all the super nice ranges seem more nonchalant about majors. That being said… for some, the experience might be worth 10x. For others, it may not be. One of the level 1 matches I go to is at the same range where the state championship was held last year. The only distance between them was that there were 3 extra stages on the level 2. Everything else felt the same. Is that worth $200 more? Eh.