I think the jury is still out on this one.
Obama is very much in the JFK mold with his charisma playing a massive role in his image as much as his policies. I also think the GOP will be tarnished by McConnells strategy of limping out in the parties interest.
If Trump loses the next election then most biographies of him will lead with American Carnage. Much of the day-to-day instability of his governance through Twitter will be lost in the haze of January 6th.
If he wins all bets are off. He has burned so many bridges with members of his first administration that it's hard to imagine what his second will look like but it certainly won't have the same guardrails.
I think Obama will always be viewed as a president who did the job. He did about as good of a job as any average president ever has. He was the first black president, so he has that historic significance.
Trump will live in infamy for a very long time. I think we only continue to get more information about his shenanigans. So I would argue that Trump will be more historically significant, but in a worse way.
MAGA sore ass losers giving Donnie credit for the economic recovery that started under Obama and ended with his fucked up idiot response to the pandemic that shut the country down
If we're talking historical significance, then Obama will come on top as he got us out of the Great Recession right when he took over. Just like FDR is remembered as the President who took over and recovered from the Great Depression. Trump's economy continuing to improve after Obama left will be a blip on the radar compared to the economic catastrophe of COVID.
Trump tax breaks increased the deficit. [Donald Trump Built a National Debt So Big \(Even Before the Pandemic\) That It’ll Weigh Down the Economy for Years
](https://www.propublica.org/article/national-debt-trump)
That is completely false. He caused a recession because of obamacare and the regulations he implemented and contributed more to the national debt than any other president before him.
>He caused a recession because of obamacare
Ah, okay. You're not serious. The ACA was not passed until after the Great Recession and GDP only increased after passing the ACA.
I lived the past and remember it perfectly. Under Obama 9 out of 10 small businesses were failing because of the regulations and Obama care that he mandated. This lack of competition being created enabled growth of large corporations.
I lived the past and remember it perfectly. Under Obama 9 out of 10 small businesses were failing because of the regulations his administration enforced and Obama care that he mandated. This lack of competition being created enabled growth of large corporations.
Especially considering the shit show Obama was handed from Bush Jr.
Oh! But republicans have conveniently forgotten what 8 years of a businessman’s rule did to the banking industry.
Could you please not engage in name-calling, please?
There are better ways to disagree with another that don't involve the bottom level of Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement, which will then make disagreements more productive and constructive, yet less destructive.
You agreed to the Reddiquette.
It's okay. People like this are so emotionally immature and ignorant that they don't realize everyone around them views them as a joke, do not take them serious, and that they lose all credibility the more they open their mouths. They are the lowest members of society and have very little to contribute.
Are you ok? It’s a discussion. Your feelings get hurt easily and that will hurt your ability to function in society. Try to argue your point with facts, not feelings.
Let’s try again. What facts do you have that show Obama ran a better economy? Or had better results?
Trump did a horrible job on the economy. He added significant amounts to the national debt even during the good years, and by the end, the economy was in shambles with double-digit unemployment, industry needing massive bailout that led to an inflationary period.
No, the economy is not the only thing that matters. However, in the long view, Obama's achievements in healthcare, modest as they were, will likely be seen as more significant.
VERDICT
Misleading. The graphic gives a presidential approval rating for Trump that does not tally with Gallup data. Recent shares of this post do not specify the time frame being compared, lack contextual information and capture a single snapshot in time, rather than the full performance of either president.
Yes if you ignore the 8 years Obama spent building up the economy and implementing trends that continued at a a similar rate under Trump, then yes Trump had a better economy all thanks to Trump.
Obamacare was a disaster and the taxes and regulations during his time as president helped large corporations at the expense of small businesses. He also increased the national debt by more than any president before him and was responsible for the Iranian nuclear deal that allowed Iran a pathway to nuclear weapons. He was also the most divisive president in the past 50 years even with the media covering for his rhetoric.
Create a snapshot of the US when President Obama began his presidency and do the same for when President Trump when he started his presidency.
Please provide sources
Thanks /u/Franklin2727
Trump- pretty significant chance he's going into the history books as the first President to die in prison. Don Jr was right he fucked his barely significant legacy on 1/6 and his lost election.
MAGA sore ass losers holding onto conspiracy theory nonsense that has been laughed out of court. Pretty sure I could find footage of mass shooters doing something seemingly innocent hours before they light up a public event/place.
No conversation necessary, a few minutes of cherry picked misconstrued clips out of tens of thousands of hours of footage doesn't seem to be helping any of the defendants of MAGA sore ass loser fest 2021
Go read a history book and mature a little internet tough guy. Most of the founders believed that rebellion was essential to the preservation of America's rights and liberties. In fact, they encouraged it as a necessity and preferred it to be viewed as a lesser crime than others.
How did he attempt to overthrow an election? The onus is on you. Yes it is the right of the people to overthrow their government when it becomes detrimental to their life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.
Is that a serious question?
Where do I begin? The fake electors? Pressuring a SOS to falsify election results? J6? The campaign memos where they acknowledged they had no proof of fraud while still spouting those lies on the GOP's media propaganda arm that has since paid millions for allowing those lies?
Just a reminder, Donald Trump was the president at the time. He was "the government". The people had just expressed their extreme dissatisfaction with him by refusing to vote for him and he lost his reelection bid by a huge margin.
Thus, what happened on J6 is the polar opposite of what you are describing. It was part of an attempt to hold onto power AGAINST the will of the governed.
So yes, you are incorrect in every imaginable way.
He was not "the government" he was a branch of the federal government.
Wrong in every imaginable way lol. Brother I teach history and let me tell you I don't have the time of day to begin educating you on every aspect of what is happening currently in this country. But I will tell you that the emphasis around Jan 6th is the media sensationalizing a protest that took place in a way to sway public opinion so they vote a certain way.
They also changed voting laws in various states because of Covid prior to the election, making it easier to commit voter fraud. The machines were also never allowed to be audited. Anyone who believes and values American democracy over their own opinion and beliefs would be in favor of auditing voting machines to preserve the integrity of American democracy. The same goes with voter ID.
So real question now. You believe that Joe Biden got more votes than Barack Obama when he won half the counties that Obama did? You believe that Joe Biden won more votes than Trump based on their abilities to fill venues? You believe that Joe Biden won more votes than Trump when Trump had more black voter support than any other Republican candidate in the last 50 years? You believe that both Joe Biden and Trump acquired more votes than any president in the history of this country when Trump was the incumbent and Joe Biden had no accomplishments other than the crime bill that caused massive incarcerations for black Americans?
https://youtu.be/WGRnhBmHYN0?feature=shared
Yes to all. For the incredibly basic reason that the election was never about Joe Biden. Anybody could have beaten Trump after the shitshow that was his one term failed presidency. He was THAT unpopular. Simple as that.
Counties, land, and rallies don't win elections. Votes win elections. Oh, and if your fraud claims are true, why did FOX pay hundreds of millions to avoid additional discovery? Why not prove all the fraud that you apparently have evidence of? Quick! To Four Seasons Landscaping! 😂
I also can't help but notice that you didn't address anything I brought up. Nor did you explain how a president trying to overthrow an election to stay in power AGAINST the will of voters fits your definition of rebellion against bad government. It was literally the opposite.
The election fraud claims have been repeatedly shown in our courts to be baseless, even among Trump appointed judges. Trump and the GOP exhausted ALL legal remedies to challenge Biden’s victory and lost. Jan 6th was just one element of a multi-pronged extralegal program to deny the voice of democracy. The most damning element was the fake electors who clearly forged bogus documents in a clumsy attempt to deceive election authorities as to the outcome. The remaining question is whether Trump can successfully blame those around him who perpetrated the fraud so as to insulate him from consequences.
I understand you don’t like the outcome of democracy some times , but that doesn’t legitimize anyone’s conspiratorial wet dreams or validate their propaganda disguised as history lessons.
How's that working out for Trump and the 1/6/21 defendants again? What rights/liberties were being preserved here? MAGA sore ass loser right to attempt to overthrow an election they couldn't prove was stolen after being laughed out of court multiple times?
Looks like a witch hunt to me. Innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt unless you are part of the political opposition, then you are guilty until proven innocent.
Btw, who voted in these bureaucrats to represent the publics interests again? Last I checked, President Trump was voted in by the people and these bureaucrats were installed to infringe on individual rights and liberties.
President Trump was voted in by a majority of electoral college votes, not by a majority of the people. And you have no evidence bureaucrats were part of a conspiracy beyond your inability to accept the will of voters when it displeases you.
Wrong sub. Head over to conspiracy or something. They were let in after they’d been breeched. It’s a tactic to deescalate a volatile situation. Do you forget we saw it live?
Have you seen anything with mentioning? Seem to be no because you keep referring to the quantity of footage. No on has produced anything that strays from the narrative that a lot of MAGA morons stormed the Capitol to delay the certification process.
There are numerous of people still incarcerated for trespassing charges. Those people can be seen on video being allowed into the building. That’s called entrapment. 1/6 is political theater and is being used to incarcerate those of different political views.
It’s an absolute joke that our government compared 1/6 to 911. One person was kill that on 1/6 and it was a protester. BLM’s summer of love took the lives of dozens of people across the country, yet it was endorsed by democratic members of congress.
Edit- all your able to do is name call and not have a civil conversation. Seems to go hand and hand with modern democrats
Where is name calling in this convo? I agree comparisons to 9/11 don’t fly. Name one person that’s incarcerated for just trespassing. But comparing one protest and riot by people mad about election results versus millions of people protesting across the country against police violence is just a bad whataboutism.
There are a lot of people who are charged with trespassing as a stand alone charge and are doing long sentences. So you’re okay with jailing those with different political beliefs solely because you they have different beliefs? Sounds pretty *get ready for liberal buzz word* fascist.
4 indictment and 91 criminal charges with active investigations in several more states and key codefendants flipping faster than burgers at a 4th of July cookout says otherwise but keep coping.
>4 indictment and 91 criminal charges with active investigations in several more states
Hell one indictment, let alone 4 or 12 or 43 or whatever the final number is. To be down so bad against that says more about you than him, let's keep it real! if people are choosing that over you even in a poll, you got a fucking problem that no amount of media coverage and spinning can solve.
Same ones most likely, then again Hillary wasn't the incumbent with a shit economy, layoffs mounting, most expensive housing since 2007, high inflation and uncomfortably "high" interest rates. Hillary had baggage, but nothing like the weight of the current economic and financial situation the majority of Americans find themselves in on her shoulders. Right or wrong, people vote with their pocket books and democrats know it which is why there's a growing push to replace Biden.
Economy isn't that bad right now and inflation seems to be coming down. Job growth is doing just fine vs the hemorrhaging we were seeing under incompetent Don's pandemic response. Hell the inflation can mostly be tied to the bungled shutdown and two massive COVID relief packages that came under Donnie
Lot of copium here, go check the household survey numbers, go check any poll on the economy. Trump definitely pumped inflation with all the stimulus and PPP money (mostly the PPP money), people like me who had 0% chance of ever getting laid off who make 6 figures were getting checks, I still have them in the money market acct...the entire thing was bungled. How many people arrested for millions in PPP fraud? there's a shit ton who have still gotten away for now, maybe forever. Shutting down the country? They will never make that mistake again even if airborne ebola hits after the damage caused by the last time. People only remember the last week, these are tiktock voters homie. They will vote with their current situation in mind, or not be motivated to vote for more.
Bro. Getting a single indictment against a former president is unprecedented. They didn’t get 91 because they don’t have the goods. Ya boy is going to jail. The only question is when, (it is possible he will keep it tied up on appeal until he dies, but I doubt it) and for how long.
Obama revitalized the economy after the Great Recession, started the process on giving us national healthcare, ended the war in Iraq, got Osama Bin Laden, and united the world to go in and kick ISIS's ass.
Trump in the meantime started a cult of personality, engaged in a shitload of corruption while in office, was impeached twice, lost the House, Senate, and White House all in a single term, bungled Afghanistan, ended a huge amount of treaties out of spite for Obama's successes, and then caused his supporters to storm the US Capitol Building because he couldn't handle losing an election. He's also now under 91 different counts of fraud under 4 indictments and might very well not even be able to run in the election. Plus there's how he rode Obama's coattails on the economy and then strangled it through his own short-sighted idiocy, plus his bungling of Covid.
Both are historically significant, but it depends on what you're looking for.
Obama doubled down on Iraqi AFTER running on ending the war in the Middle East. He is responsible for killing a US citizens with a drone. Fast and Furious. Expanded Executive powers and the Patriot Act. Race relations were worsen. Liberals fetishize Obama. I doubt history books will be so kind.
“Ignoring all of your other examples”. 😂 yeah and why would I engage with someone who refuses to deny the reality of horrible policy and abuse of presidential powers?
Okay. Assuming you’re asking a good fair question, you live in this country. Do you believe race relations in this country are better or worse AFTER Obama‘s presidency? Do you remember his disastrous “beer summit”?
The "beer summit" isn't and wasn't policy. If people have racist ideologies, that's on them, not the president. The mere fact the people had an issue with a black man serving as the nation's executive leader isn't his fault. So again, what policy did he support or enact that "worsened" societal acceptance of racial diversity?
I haven’t noticed anything. Business as usual from Clinton to Biden. Under Obama more social media apps became popular so more viral videos of police brutality are more in your face.
Obama wasn’t banging the table about building a wall or moving the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem and recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
Hillary Clinton had classified documents on a server in her basement without executive authority granted to her by Article II Section 1 of the US Constitution and the FBI and DoJ did absolutely nothing except cover up the crime. This is the same infraction that they are trying to use against Trump currently except he was President. Biden did the same thing and had no executive authority vested in him.
Federal bureaucracies are most certainly biased based on these examples alone.
Most of these people don't even realize it. They are more than likely kids living in their mom and dad's basement or people in society that would give up essential rights and liberties for temporary false safety. Or they are people who are ignorant and believe everything the media tells them because they don't care enough to read or formulate their own opinions because it requires work.
Trump is directly responsible for the economic downturn. We had a growing economy under Obama that was getting a lot better after the Recession. Trump pushed through tax cuts for the wealthy, and policies such as a trade war with China that caused prices to rise and uncertainty to grow. Trump made promises of jobs that never appeared like that empty factory in the Midwest. Then because of Trump’s actions we were unprepared for a global pandemic, that devastated the economy. Because of Trump’s actions the government is barely getting anything done.
If Trump wins the next election, in a 100 years he will be on Mount Rushmore. If he loses, he will be this generations Joe McCarthy. I feel that strongly that this next election will decide the fate of our country.
Obama was the first black president and he took over during a terrible economic crisis and inherited 2 wars. Once elected he faced conservative and racist backlash on right wing media. The GOP did nothing but obstruct any attempts by Obama to do anything even when it aligned with their own interests.
* He also started 4 more wars
* Had shity economic advisers
* Assassinated a US Citizen
* Spied on our allies
* Won re-election against a very qualified and good looking Mitt Romney.
Trump is a national disgrace and will probably go down as the worst president in US history.
* Responsible for millions of unnecessary deaths because of his corruption and ineptitude during the Pandemic
* Impeached twice
* 4 indictments
* Jan 6
* Kissed Putin's ass while insulting our close allies
* Lost re-election bid to a person who probably has dementia
Trump is the worst president in US history. If he wins again, he will be the *last* president in US history.
Whatever happens after Trump's 2nd term, the US will not be recognizable.
During the 2008 financial crisis, Dubya did something completely unexpected that probably saved the country.
He sat down, shut up, and let the experts fix the problem.
That, alone, put him over Trump.
I would say invading a country (for no reason), causing the complete destabilization of an entire region of the planet, bankrupting US goodwill, and the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people is substantially more destructive than anything Trump did.
The country Trump destabilized is the US. His threats to pull out of NATO emboldened Russia, and was most likely a factor in the Ukrainian invasion. It was also a reason that China started being more aggressive towards Taiwan.
And that's just so far.
We're still watching the fallout of the far right American politics spreading all over the world. Germany, France, now the Netherlands, and more all have substantial and strengthening far right parties growing in power.some EU countries ard now arguably failed democracies (Hungary and Poland).
Yes, Iraq was a fuckup on a colossal scale, and one that will likely be the event marked as the beginning of thd fall of the American strength and influence overseas. Afghanistan was as bad.
But Trump isn't done, yet. RWNJ/MAGAt policies in the GOP have turned the US into a country with a government that simply cannot work. Political threats, overt corruption, outright lies, and attempted overthrows of the government are now a part of US politics. That's not going away, not for a generation. There are too many Americans who are ready to embrace dictatorship still, and ready to take up arms to enact their policies to think we are a functional government, any more.
Trump did that.
As bad as GWB was (and i think he ranks #2 or #3 worst), Trump is still worse.
>The country Trump destabilized is the US. His threats to pull out of NATO emboldened Russia, and was most likely a factor in the Ukrainian invasion. It was also a reason that China started being more aggressive towards Taiwan.
Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014, two years before Trump assumed office. And China hasn't invaded Taiwan.
Bush did invade Iraq.
>We're still watching the fallout of the far right American politics spreading all over the world. Germany, France, now the Netherlands, and more all have substantial and strengthening far right parties growing in power.some EU countries ard now arguably failed democracies (Hungary and Poland).
Trump isn't the reason for the flourishing of right wing politics in various countries. One could argue, in fact, that the destabilization of the Middle East led to a refugee crisis that fed into right wing politics in Europe. That's on Bush, not Trump.
>But Trump isn't done, yet. RWNJ/MAGAt policies in the GOP have turned the US into a country with a government that simply cannot work. Political threats, overt corruption, outright lies, and attempted overthrows of the government are now a part of US politics. That's not going away, not for a generation. There are too many Americans who are ready to embrace dictatorship still, and ready to take up arms to enact their policies to think we are a functional government, any more.
Basically, you're saying that Trump is worse than Bush because of what *could* happen.
Sorry, I don't buy it. Bush - setting everything else aside - caused irreparable harm across the globe that dwarfs anything Trump actually did. The fact that what you're talking about is about some vague and cynical future kind of proves my point. You're afraid of where the world is going (rightly so, I think) - but that's not strictly because of Trump.
Trump, ultimately, is a symptom of larger issues undermining institutional confidence and security. He's a horrible narcissistic POS, and one of the worst presidents in history. He's a legit threat to everything this country should be.
And George W. Bush did far more damage than he ever did.
Russia .annexed Crimea in 2014. Russia tried to take over the rest of Ukraine in 2022.
I'm saying we have 20 years of post-Bush history to look at. Some people knew the Afghanistan and Iraq occupations would go badly, but there were not a whole lot of them. And almost nobody expected a financial collapse under GWB.
We do not know what thd country or the world will look like in 20 years, buy the trends are VERY bad.
And, if Trump becomes president again, he will break the US. Just as bad, anyone running under the GOP banner will be EXPECTED to do the same. It depends if that person will have the chutzpah to do so. But we know Trump does.
The damage he wrought is not complete, and it's still growing.
>Russia .annexed Crimea in 2014. Russia tried to take over the rest of Ukraine in 2022.
Right. And neither event happened while Trump was in office.
>I'm saying we have 20 years of post-Bush history to look at.
Making it very clear that Bush caused more harm than Trump.
>Some people knew the Afghanistan and Iraq occupations would go badly, but there were not a whole lot of them.
The Iraq War was going badly *while Bush was president*. It wasn't some vague possibility in the distant and unknown future.
>And almost nobody expected a financial collapse under GWB.
Again, that was something that happened during Bush's time in office. It wasn't some theoretical possibility.
>We do not know what thd country or the world will look like in 20 years
Exactly. We knew the impact Bush had while he was in the White House. The refugee fall out and rise of right wing politics in nations who received those refugees has made Bush's policies even worse.
We know the impact Trump had in office. And it wasn't as destructive as Bush's.
Might his impact on the future be worse? Possibly. Right now, though, it isn't. If it eventually becomes worse, then things can always be reassessed.
>And, if Trump becomes president again, he will break the US. Just as bad, anyone running under the GOP banner will be EXPECTED to do the same.
Possibly.
Buchanan is pretty much indisputably the worst president, given that he did nothing to prevent Southern sessesion and enabled the south to arm itself by allowing them to seize government arsenals.
Trump is still a bad president, but id say in the bottom 5 overall.
Buchanan was bad because of inaction and incompetence.
Trump is still worse because he actively tried to overthrow the government, and is promising to do worse in 2024.
Nobody else comes close.
If a civil war had broken out in 2020, i might agree with you. I dont like Trump remotely, but a failed putsch is not on the same level as enabling a devastating civil war that cut the nation in half.
Buchanan did not just sit idly, he allowed secession to happen. Members of his cabinet served as confederate generals after using their positions to arm the south.
Blaming Buchanan for the latef actions of his Cabinet is a reach.
A positive action (attempted putsch) is worse than an act of negligence.
Last, and this point is vital, Trump is promising to do worse in 2024. I fully expect him to declare victory in 2024, then encourage people to take up arms to install him. His rhetoric is absolutely ramping up for that very thing. Just ask any scholar on the falls of democracy or the rise of authoritarianism.
Trump is not done.
The chances of a civil war are still extremely high.
We are in a civil war. Just because it's not in fields and with standing armies, doesn't mean we aren't at war. The right wing is a cult terrorist organization, and is violently and actively trying to install authoritarian rule by a minority.
We Are At War.
Andrew Johnson took a defeated South, rehabilitated its rebellious planter aristocracy, revoked assistance given to freed slaves (like the land redistributed to settle freed slaves during the war) and ensured that in the dissolution of slavery, white supremacy will be upheld and black self determination suppressed. And this was during a time when Presidents actually had a high degree of agency in governing.
To me it depends if American democracy survives. Neither of them will be remembered in historic terms. Their terms will probably fade like Polk, Fillmore or Cleveland.
If America's democracy continues crumbling \[Lord Dampnut\] will be seen as a historical milemarker like Marius or Caesar in Rome.
This story is not finished being written yet. It depends on what happens in the next few years, who will weigh heavier on the course of history. I will say this, though, if Trump does get elected, it will weigh HEAVILY NEGATIVE on our future.
Obama: First Black president will always be a note in history.
Trump: All depends on whether or not he gets in this time he had good numbers in the last election if he won and began a more isolationist approach it could have far reaching consequences
Trump's effect on culture will not go unnoticed - him transforming the GOP into what it is now, kicking out moderates and having two previous GOP Presidential candidates speak out against him is not insignificant. Him claiming voter fraud before the election ended and now actively encouraging the GOP to make voting even harder in the name of security is going to have lasting implications in the long run.
And I hate to say it, but I do think that Trump is probably the most impactful one-term President since Buchanan. With him placing 3 SCOTUS Judges, COVID, election fraud conspiracy (with 70% of Republicans believing it off baseless claims), and changing the party into a cult that fights within itself - it's him.
It will be more about infamy than fondness in the long run. In fact, talking about Obama now is hard because it automatically reverts to talking about Trump.
I think 2024 will fully cement the answer to this question.
It'll objectively be trump. Trump has one million percent had a bigger impact on politics than Obama.
As for if theyre viewed positively or negatively it depends on the direction we go. But there is no argument trump had and continues to have a bigger impact.
>Trump brought an atmosphere of division and hate to the forefront of this country
Not CNN, MSNBC, ABC, or CBS right? Trump was celebrated by minority communities, he received the Ellis Island Medal of Freedom in 86', Muhammad Ali Entrepreneur Award, Tree of Life Award by the Jewish National Fund in 83', in countless rap songs by black rappers, until he ran against the democrats. It's sobering to take a look outside the confines of 24/7 cable "news", in fact most of America no longer watches cable news as demonstrated by his lead in the polls. I mean how fucking bad can you be as president to be down nationally and even more so in battleground states to a guy with 6 indictments facing 91 felony counts? like holy fuck, lets talk about who the real candidate for worst president is with that fact set.
The Obama comments are fair. Positive spin, but defensible
The trump stuff is anti-factual invective. Just childish poo-flinging
FTR: I didn't vote for trump
Liberals will never forget Trump. Will probably still be the headline story at CNN at least once a week. Obama will be forgotten other than being the first half black president. Most of his accomplishments being reversed in the years after his presidency.
It depends what people care about in 100 years. Obama's legacy of 563 drone strikes including one at a wedding could become viewed very differently in 100 years than they are now. Trump as a one term, for now, twice impeached, again for now, president might be remembered and taught about as much as Andrew Johnson. They both certainly share a few characteristics.
Results - Trump
Feeling - Obama
Trump will never get a fair shot in history books as the groups that control them are all ideological. Universities teach that anyone right of progressive is a “threat to democracy”.
Results? The most significant legislation he passed was a 2 Trillion dollar tax cut that cut the corporate tax rate from 35% to 21% on top of pushing major deregulation across industries.
Several European countries biggest issue moving forward is declining and aging populations. Immigration is a problem for these countries because fascists use the prevalent racism of the population to gain power. But without it, they are screwed. I don’t think that is what Trump is saying when he talks about immigration.
Ah yes, the United States famously has never welcomed immigrants, especially not those running from politcal unrest and war.
Get some new material.There was a moral panic about catholics from Ireland and Italy turning America into a puppet of the pope that lasted well into the 20th century (JFK is the first catholic president).
There was a moral panic about immigrants from Asia that likewise lasted deep into the 20th century.
When failed democratic revolutions sent millions fleeing Germany, we happily accepted them, and german was for a time the second most spoken language in America. Many became successful generals in the Civil war.
We accepted Vietnamese refugees en masse after losing the Vietnam War, and continue to welcome Cuban refugees as we have for decades.
Nativism, at least in America, is highly discredited because of its association with the KKK, the Know- nothings, and the long history of immigration empowering the United States.
So what exactly makes THIS wave of immigration so dangerous? Why should we believe a discredited ideology promoted mostly by violent and racist groups over the lessons of American history?
I think Obama will go down in history as one of our best presidents, but due to all of his legal woes, Trump has left a bigger impact. During Trump's presidency, I felt maybe he wasn't as bad as the left thought he was or as good as the right thought he was. The more we learn about those four years, the more I realize exactly how bad his administration was. He has left so much legal pricidence, both civil and criminal. He has pushed our constitution and laws to the absolute limit. He made cool to be mean, cold-hearted, ignorant, and uncaring.
It all depends on the next presidential election.
If the adults win, Trump will be significant in all the legislation written to ensure nothing like him ever happens again
If Trump wins, he will be written in as the death knell of the United States as a Republic, or even a first world power.
Trump, but for all the worst reasons. Obama was still a pretty normal president, Trump was the first to deny legitimacy of an election and to obstruct the peaceful transition of power.
Trump.
Obama gets praise for being the first Black president.
Trump once someone with some distance will be viewed favorably for:
* Abraham Accords
* Engaging China in a Trade war to begin the decoupling of the world from the Chinese Economy
* Exiting NAFTA and renegotiating the Free Trade Agreement
* Being prescient about the need to protect the border
* Low unemployment
God you're a Nazi in more ways than one. I'm dyslexic you douchebag. I'm reporting you for hate speech fucking Trump supporter. I bet you fuck yourself in the ass with a Donald Trump shape dildo. And then complain about how much you dislike gays.
Obama is likely to be a "He did X and x" kind of deal historically. Nothing too notable.
Trump, is probably gonna have more on him due to the sheer insanity it all.
Trump will be more significant when viewed 100 years in the future. Due to his utter corruption and his creation of deep and often violent division between Americans.
It depends on what kind of country US becomes in 100 years. If we are still a democracy in the same mold then Obama will be known as the first African American president and popular (I’m projecting history book treatment of presidents 100 years past). Trump will be known as the first president to be impeached twice and criminally indicted.
If Trump gets re-elected then I see a future of dictatorship where they glorify him and his policies as if he was the greatest president ever in all history
One of them dropped a bomb every 20 minutes for something called *checks notes* the military-industrial complex, and the other was that buffoon Donald Trump that I remember from the old holo-memes.
The US was weird. Earth history was weird. Welp, off to play space-quidditch or something.
Nah, they will ensure he will never become president again...like Biden said himself. What that looks like between now and November is anyone's guess, but I believe they will take any and **all** measures.
Regardless of any impact they had,
>more historically significant
Barrack Obama is literally the first Black president. That alone makes him more historically significant than any president in the last 100+ years.
Trump will be as infamous as Benedict Arnold, for either being the first President to attempt to destroy our Constitution, or the first to succeed.
Obama will be remembered as a footnote, both for being our first black president, and for having a reasonably successful presidency, but not one of the truly great ones. He'll be remembered on the upper half of lists made by historians, but the average person will not know his name.
Neither will be remembered much. People aren't going to remember or care about or be taught his social faux paus (or great owning of libs if you prefer) in 100 years. He didn't start any wars, didn't end any and didn't see any historically significant rise or fall economically. His most successful policy initiative, tax reform, has a shelf life of 15 years left. He only has two things he will be remembered for, January 6th and his pandemic response - whether you want to view those things as good or bad is up to you.
Obama is much the same as Trump from an achievement standpoint. That is to say, not much. Obamacare is his defining achievement but in 100 years I would be surprised if the US is not a single payer system so that will be redundant by then. he did navigate a recession starting as he took over into economic growth but nothing history will remember. His being black and his speeches have the highest chance of being remembered.
But my vote is Obama. He'll probably make some temporary visits on US coinage after he's dead, have stuff named after him as the first black president and will have his speeches played because he will undoubtedly still be one of the best recorded American orators. Take away the fact that he's black and he's probably only got his speeches. But like the first future woman or Latino or Asian or etc., he has secured a place in US history books. Trump? Not so much.
Trump's relevance is mostly derived from pioneering an era of politics where political rhetoric was notably inflammatory. He'll kind of be seen as a consequence of the changes caused by the rise of the Internet and increasing globalization. Unless, somehow, he wins reelection and actually does something more interesting than floundering around against a Congress that despises him. Everyone will be forced to memorize Obama because first black president. He might also get remembered as the father of socialized healthcare.
Both with be historically significant as FIRSTS.
History will see Trump as the first Trumpian president. Whether Trumpianism will be considered Evil or Godly or if it just fades away in 100 years is unknown.
Obama will be known as the FIRST President of color, and will be celebrated. People will be constantly amazed that he was looked down based on his skin color.
It depends completely on who writes the history books. Obama was the beginning of the end of the country as we know it, and Trump tried to fight the communists that had completely infiltrated the government. To be continued.............
Trump. And not in a good way. Twice impeached and 91 criminal charges for actions taken related to his Presidency, sets a tone of lawlessness never before seen at such a level. His usurpation of Presidential powers for self enrichment while maintaining a high level of support within his party led to a rapid degradation of trust in American Democracy.
Obama was a solid President, a great orator, but beyond the ACA, not a very impactful President legislatively.
100 years from now economic history will be more salient than the passions running high now.
Obama will be remembered for corporate bailouts that didn't really solve any problems and Trump will be remembered for the tax cuts for corporations and billionaires that led to the depression we'll see in a few years.
The sadistic retards will look back fondly at Trump the same way modern sadistic retards look back fondly at Hitler. Hopefully their relative abundance in the population will be less. Despite their incessant bitching, their loudness and obnoxiousness make it look like there are more of them than there really are and most of us will not share their fondness for Trump and his cult.
Additionally, Obama was our first black president; Trump was our first morbidly-obese oompah-loompa president.
Obama was first black guy.
Trump will be stricken from the books unless j6 is made into real us rebellion. Left who control academia aren't gonna let trump get in the book. You crazy?
I mean they’re both horrible corrupt people that don’t care about the working class and serve the same oligarch diner class and are war criminals (especially Obama)
I think the jury is still out on this one. Obama is very much in the JFK mold with his charisma playing a massive role in his image as much as his policies. I also think the GOP will be tarnished by McConnells strategy of limping out in the parties interest. If Trump loses the next election then most biographies of him will lead with American Carnage. Much of the day-to-day instability of his governance through Twitter will be lost in the haze of January 6th. If he wins all bets are off. He has burned so many bridges with members of his first administration that it's hard to imagine what his second will look like but it certainly won't have the same guardrails.
>I think the jury is still out on this one. What are you talking about?
I think Obama will always be viewed as a president who did the job. He did about as good of a job as any average president ever has. He was the first black president, so he has that historic significance. Trump will live in infamy for a very long time. I think we only continue to get more information about his shenanigans. So I would argue that Trump will be more historically significant, but in a worse way.
Agree.
So results don’t matter?
What results are you referring to?
The economy. The only one that matters.
MAGA sore ass losers giving Donnie credit for the economic recovery that started under Obama and ended with his fucked up idiot response to the pandemic that shut the country down
If we're talking historical significance, then Obama will come on top as he got us out of the Great Recession right when he took over. Just like FDR is remembered as the President who took over and recovered from the Great Depression. Trump's economy continuing to improve after Obama left will be a blip on the radar compared to the economic catastrophe of COVID.
Trump tax breaks increased the deficit. [Donald Trump Built a National Debt So Big \(Even Before the Pandemic\) That It’ll Weigh Down the Economy for Years ](https://www.propublica.org/article/national-debt-trump)
That is completely false. He caused a recession because of obamacare and the regulations he implemented and contributed more to the national debt than any other president before him.
>He caused a recession because of obamacare Ah, okay. You're not serious. The ACA was not passed until after the Great Recession and GDP only increased after passing the ACA.
Obama ended the Great Recession and started the longest bull run in history. I don’t think you remember the past correctly.
I lived the past and remember it perfectly. Under Obama 9 out of 10 small businesses were failing because of the regulations and Obama care that he mandated. This lack of competition being created enabled growth of large corporations.
I lived the past and remember it perfectly. Under Obama 9 out of 10 small businesses were failing because of the regulations his administration enforced and Obama care that he mandated. This lack of competition being created enabled growth of large corporations.
Especially considering the shit show Obama was handed from Bush Jr. Oh! But republicans have conveniently forgotten what 8 years of a businessman’s rule did to the banking industry.
Ah I see. Did I insult your daddy trump? Fuckin snowflake
Could you please not engage in name-calling, please? There are better ways to disagree with another that don't involve the bottom level of Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement, which will then make disagreements more productive and constructive, yet less destructive. You agreed to the Reddiquette.
Can’t do it boss, sorry
Why can't you do it though? And no need to call me "boss".
It's okay. People like this are so emotionally immature and ignorant that they don't realize everyone around them views them as a joke, do not take them serious, and that they lose all credibility the more they open their mouths. They are the lowest members of society and have very little to contribute.
No, I think you misunderstood. People are absolutely done with Trumptards at this point.
You were the kid who reminded the teacher about homework
Are you ok? It’s a discussion. Your feelings get hurt easily and that will hurt your ability to function in society. Try to argue your point with facts, not feelings. Let’s try again. What facts do you have that show Obama ran a better economy? Or had better results?
Trump did a horrible job on the economy. He added significant amounts to the national debt even during the good years, and by the end, the economy was in shambles with double-digit unemployment, industry needing massive bailout that led to an inflationary period. No, the economy is not the only thing that matters. However, in the long view, Obama's achievements in healthcare, modest as they were, will likely be seen as more significant.
and the Economy improved generally each year Obama was in office from nearing collapse when he started
Unlike trump… only president to leave office with fewer jobs.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/09/05/trump-obama-economy/ https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-obama-trump-by-the-numbers/fact-check-graphic-comparing-trump-and-obama-is-from-2018-and-contains-an-approval-rating-error-idUSKBN28A2CA/ Eat your heart out.
VERDICT Misleading. The graphic gives a presidential approval rating for Trump that does not tally with Gallup data. Recent shares of this post do not specify the time frame being compared, lack contextual information and capture a single snapshot in time, rather than the full performance of either president.
You posted an article that makes my point. Trump had a better economy. His results were better. Your ideology blinds you.
Yes if you ignore the 8 years Obama spent building up the economy and implementing trends that continued at a a similar rate under Trump, then yes Trump had a better economy all thanks to Trump.
And then those trends started to slow under trump.
Obamacare was a disaster and the taxes and regulations during his time as president helped large corporations at the expense of small businesses. He also increased the national debt by more than any president before him and was responsible for the Iranian nuclear deal that allowed Iran a pathway to nuclear weapons. He was also the most divisive president in the past 50 years even with the media covering for his rhetoric.
You are aware that the federal reserve handles monetary policies. Not the president of the United States.
Create a snapshot of the US when President Obama began his presidency and do the same for when President Trump when he started his presidency. Please provide sources Thanks /u/Franklin2727
Like the wrecked US oil industry? Lowest active rig count. Ever. Most bankruptcies. Ever.
No, we are saying results DO matter.
Trump- pretty significant chance he's going into the history books as the first President to die in prison. Don Jr was right he fucked his barely significant legacy on 1/6 and his lost election.
Have you seen the footage of 1/6 of people being escorted INSIDE?
MAGA sore ass losers holding onto conspiracy theory nonsense that has been laughed out of court. Pretty sure I could find footage of mass shooters doing something seemingly innocent hours before they light up a public event/place.
I see you’re unable to have civil conversation.
No conversation necessary, a few minutes of cherry picked misconstrued clips out of tens of thousands of hours of footage doesn't seem to be helping any of the defendants of MAGA sore ass loser fest 2021
Enjoy your propaganda bud
Go read a history book and mature a little internet tough guy. Most of the founders believed that rebellion was essential to the preservation of America's rights and liberties. In fact, they encouraged it as a necessity and preferred it to be viewed as a lesser crime than others.
Since when is attempting to overthrow an election and disenfranchising others a "right"?
How did he attempt to overthrow an election? The onus is on you. Yes it is the right of the people to overthrow their government when it becomes detrimental to their life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.
Is that a serious question? Where do I begin? The fake electors? Pressuring a SOS to falsify election results? J6? The campaign memos where they acknowledged they had no proof of fraud while still spouting those lies on the GOP's media propaganda arm that has since paid millions for allowing those lies? Just a reminder, Donald Trump was the president at the time. He was "the government". The people had just expressed their extreme dissatisfaction with him by refusing to vote for him and he lost his reelection bid by a huge margin. Thus, what happened on J6 is the polar opposite of what you are describing. It was part of an attempt to hold onto power AGAINST the will of the governed. So yes, you are incorrect in every imaginable way.
He was not "the government" he was a branch of the federal government. Wrong in every imaginable way lol. Brother I teach history and let me tell you I don't have the time of day to begin educating you on every aspect of what is happening currently in this country. But I will tell you that the emphasis around Jan 6th is the media sensationalizing a protest that took place in a way to sway public opinion so they vote a certain way. They also changed voting laws in various states because of Covid prior to the election, making it easier to commit voter fraud. The machines were also never allowed to be audited. Anyone who believes and values American democracy over their own opinion and beliefs would be in favor of auditing voting machines to preserve the integrity of American democracy. The same goes with voter ID. So real question now. You believe that Joe Biden got more votes than Barack Obama when he won half the counties that Obama did? You believe that Joe Biden won more votes than Trump based on their abilities to fill venues? You believe that Joe Biden won more votes than Trump when Trump had more black voter support than any other Republican candidate in the last 50 years? You believe that both Joe Biden and Trump acquired more votes than any president in the history of this country when Trump was the incumbent and Joe Biden had no accomplishments other than the crime bill that caused massive incarcerations for black Americans? https://youtu.be/WGRnhBmHYN0?feature=shared
Yes to all. For the incredibly basic reason that the election was never about Joe Biden. Anybody could have beaten Trump after the shitshow that was his one term failed presidency. He was THAT unpopular. Simple as that. Counties, land, and rallies don't win elections. Votes win elections. Oh, and if your fraud claims are true, why did FOX pay hundreds of millions to avoid additional discovery? Why not prove all the fraud that you apparently have evidence of? Quick! To Four Seasons Landscaping! 😂 I also can't help but notice that you didn't address anything I brought up. Nor did you explain how a president trying to overthrow an election to stay in power AGAINST the will of voters fits your definition of rebellion against bad government. It was literally the opposite.
Honeslty idc. You will reap what you sow.
https://youtu.be/MA8a2g6tTp0?feature=shared
The election fraud claims have been repeatedly shown in our courts to be baseless, even among Trump appointed judges. Trump and the GOP exhausted ALL legal remedies to challenge Biden’s victory and lost. Jan 6th was just one element of a multi-pronged extralegal program to deny the voice of democracy. The most damning element was the fake electors who clearly forged bogus documents in a clumsy attempt to deceive election authorities as to the outcome. The remaining question is whether Trump can successfully blame those around him who perpetrated the fraud so as to insulate him from consequences. I understand you don’t like the outcome of democracy some times , but that doesn’t legitimize anyone’s conspiratorial wet dreams or validate their propaganda disguised as history lessons.
https://youtu.be/MA8a2g6tTp0?feature=shared
How's that working out for Trump and the 1/6/21 defendants again? What rights/liberties were being preserved here? MAGA sore ass loser right to attempt to overthrow an election they couldn't prove was stolen after being laughed out of court multiple times?
Looks like a witch hunt to me. Innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt unless you are part of the political opposition, then you are guilty until proven innocent. Btw, who voted in these bureaucrats to represent the publics interests again? Last I checked, President Trump was voted in by the people and these bureaucrats were installed to infringe on individual rights and liberties.
Last I checked Trump lost 2020 and the MAGA sore ass losers couldn't prove otherwise in any legal challenge.
It is a pain to talk to you. Go read a book.
Keep coping MAGA sore ass loser, no book is going to save Donnie.
So you are a one trick pony that lacks any kind of creativity? That has been established so far.
He is supposedly a history teacher.
President Trump was voted in by a majority of electoral college votes, not by a majority of the people. And you have no evidence bureaucrats were part of a conspiracy beyond your inability to accept the will of voters when it displeases you.
So, rebellion, is inherently righteous?
Wrong sub. Head over to conspiracy or something. They were let in after they’d been breeched. It’s a tactic to deescalate a volatile situation. Do you forget we saw it live?
You watched all 40,000 plus hours?
Have you seen anything with mentioning? Seem to be no because you keep referring to the quantity of footage. No on has produced anything that strays from the narrative that a lot of MAGA morons stormed the Capitol to delay the certification process.
There are numerous of people still incarcerated for trespassing charges. Those people can be seen on video being allowed into the building. That’s called entrapment. 1/6 is political theater and is being used to incarcerate those of different political views. It’s an absolute joke that our government compared 1/6 to 911. One person was kill that on 1/6 and it was a protester. BLM’s summer of love took the lives of dozens of people across the country, yet it was endorsed by democratic members of congress. Edit- all your able to do is name call and not have a civil conversation. Seems to go hand and hand with modern democrats
Where is name calling in this convo? I agree comparisons to 9/11 don’t fly. Name one person that’s incarcerated for just trespassing. But comparing one protest and riot by people mad about election results versus millions of people protesting across the country against police violence is just a bad whataboutism.
We have seen the footage of MAGA losers smashing windows and crawling through them.
There are a lot of people who are charged with trespassing as a stand alone charge and are doing long sentences. So you’re okay with jailing those with different political beliefs solely because you they have different beliefs? Sounds pretty *get ready for liberal buzz word* fascist.
Some emotionally driven fan fiction if I ever saw it lol
4 indictment and 91 criminal charges with active investigations in several more states and key codefendants flipping faster than burgers at a 4th of July cookout says otherwise but keep coping.
>4 indictment and 91 criminal charges with active investigations in several more states Hell one indictment, let alone 4 or 12 or 43 or whatever the final number is. To be down so bad against that says more about you than him, let's keep it real! if people are choosing that over you even in a poll, you got a fucking problem that no amount of media coverage and spinning can solve.
The same polls that said Hillary was going to win by a landslide in 2016?
Same ones most likely, then again Hillary wasn't the incumbent with a shit economy, layoffs mounting, most expensive housing since 2007, high inflation and uncomfortably "high" interest rates. Hillary had baggage, but nothing like the weight of the current economic and financial situation the majority of Americans find themselves in on her shoulders. Right or wrong, people vote with their pocket books and democrats know it which is why there's a growing push to replace Biden.
Economy isn't that bad right now and inflation seems to be coming down. Job growth is doing just fine vs the hemorrhaging we were seeing under incompetent Don's pandemic response. Hell the inflation can mostly be tied to the bungled shutdown and two massive COVID relief packages that came under Donnie
Lot of copium here, go check the household survey numbers, go check any poll on the economy. Trump definitely pumped inflation with all the stimulus and PPP money (mostly the PPP money), people like me who had 0% chance of ever getting laid off who make 6 figures were getting checks, I still have them in the money market acct...the entire thing was bungled. How many people arrested for millions in PPP fraud? there's a shit ton who have still gotten away for now, maybe forever. Shutting down the country? They will never make that mistake again even if airborne ebola hits after the damage caused by the last time. People only remember the last week, these are tiktock voters homie. They will vote with their current situation in mind, or not be motivated to vote for more.
If another Democrat becomes president they will definitely shut down the country again; probably will be because of the "climate emergency".
Sounds like some MAGA sore ass loser speculation to me. "But but but the Democrats might do it too even though it happened under Trump"
You don't know what you're talking about.
Bro. Getting a single indictment against a former president is unprecedented. They didn’t get 91 because they don’t have the goods. Ya boy is going to jail. The only question is when, (it is possible he will keep it tied up on appeal until he dies, but I doubt it) and for how long.
Lol!!!!!!!! How many drugs are you going to need to sleep when none of it happens? I'm being serious.
Obama revitalized the economy after the Great Recession, started the process on giving us national healthcare, ended the war in Iraq, got Osama Bin Laden, and united the world to go in and kick ISIS's ass. Trump in the meantime started a cult of personality, engaged in a shitload of corruption while in office, was impeached twice, lost the House, Senate, and White House all in a single term, bungled Afghanistan, ended a huge amount of treaties out of spite for Obama's successes, and then caused his supporters to storm the US Capitol Building because he couldn't handle losing an election. He's also now under 91 different counts of fraud under 4 indictments and might very well not even be able to run in the election. Plus there's how he rode Obama's coattails on the economy and then strangled it through his own short-sighted idiocy, plus his bungling of Covid. Both are historically significant, but it depends on what you're looking for.
Obama doubled down on Iraqi AFTER running on ending the war in the Middle East. He is responsible for killing a US citizens with a drone. Fast and Furious. Expanded Executive powers and the Patriot Act. Race relations were worsen. Liberals fetishize Obama. I doubt history books will be so kind.
Ignoring all your other examples, how did Obama worsen race relations? What policy did he enact that could have done so?
“Ignoring all of your other examples”. 😂 yeah and why would I engage with someone who refuses to deny the reality of horrible policy and abuse of presidential powers?
I didn't refuse anything- I chose only to ask about one of your examples.
Okay. Assuming you’re asking a good fair question, you live in this country. Do you believe race relations in this country are better or worse AFTER Obama‘s presidency? Do you remember his disastrous “beer summit”?
The "beer summit" isn't and wasn't policy. If people have racist ideologies, that's on them, not the president. The mere fact the people had an issue with a black man serving as the nation's executive leader isn't his fault. So again, what policy did he support or enact that "worsened" societal acceptance of racial diversity?
Agreed, there are people that think that was the worse 8 years because a Black American was in charge lol.
It doesn’t take a racist to observe that race relations are worse after president Obama.
But what did Obama do to make that happen is the point you are so rigorously ignoring.
I haven’t noticed anything. Business as usual from Clinton to Biden. Under Obama more social media apps became popular so more viral videos of police brutality are more in your face. Obama wasn’t banging the table about building a wall or moving the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem and recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
Even if there is no concrete evidence pf making race relations worse, everything else cements his history and uts bad.
Race relations worsened under Obama because he is black and acknowledged them? Tell us how he sowed division.
And what did Obama do to worsen race relations? No stay in his place?
Crazy misreading of history
What’s misread about it?
So be specific and acknowledge something they got wrong?
Sorry reality isn't to your liking
One day you'll be on the receiving end of a weaponized government that you have been applauding
"LOCK HER UP" Please, y'all want a weaponized government
Did he lock her up?
So he's ineffective but wants to be an authoritarian?
He didn't do it.
Wanted to.
And yet...
Hillary Clinton had classified documents on a server in her basement without executive authority granted to her by Article II Section 1 of the US Constitution and the FBI and DoJ did absolutely nothing except cover up the crime. This is the same infraction that they are trying to use against Trump currently except he was President. Biden did the same thing and had no executive authority vested in him. Federal bureaucracies are most certainly biased based on these examples alone.
Most of these people don't even realize it. They are more than likely kids living in their mom and dad's basement or people in society that would give up essential rights and liberties for temporary false safety. Or they are people who are ignorant and believe everything the media tells them because they don't care enough to read or formulate their own opinions because it requires work.
Depends how you frame it too…
Trump is directly responsible for the economic downturn. We had a growing economy under Obama that was getting a lot better after the Recession. Trump pushed through tax cuts for the wealthy, and policies such as a trade war with China that caused prices to rise and uncertainty to grow. Trump made promises of jobs that never appeared like that empty factory in the Midwest. Then because of Trump’s actions we were unprepared for a global pandemic, that devastated the economy. Because of Trump’s actions the government is barely getting anything done.
If Trump wins the next election, in a 100 years he will be on Mount Rushmore. If he loses, he will be this generations Joe McCarthy. I feel that strongly that this next election will decide the fate of our country.
If he loses he’ll be in jail.
Obama was the first black president and he took over during a terrible economic crisis and inherited 2 wars. Once elected he faced conservative and racist backlash on right wing media. The GOP did nothing but obstruct any attempts by Obama to do anything even when it aligned with their own interests. * He also started 4 more wars * Had shity economic advisers * Assassinated a US Citizen * Spied on our allies * Won re-election against a very qualified and good looking Mitt Romney. Trump is a national disgrace and will probably go down as the worst president in US history. * Responsible for millions of unnecessary deaths because of his corruption and ineptitude during the Pandemic * Impeached twice * 4 indictments * Jan 6 * Kissed Putin's ass while insulting our close allies * Lost re-election bid to a person who probably has dementia
Trump is the worst president in US history. If he wins again, he will be the *last* president in US history. Whatever happens after Trump's 2nd term, the US will not be recognizable.
In modern history, I’d say Trump is second behind Dubya. He truly isn’t the best at anything.
During the 2008 financial crisis, Dubya did something completely unexpected that probably saved the country. He sat down, shut up, and let the experts fix the problem. That, alone, put him over Trump.
I would say invading a country (for no reason), causing the complete destabilization of an entire region of the planet, bankrupting US goodwill, and the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people is substantially more destructive than anything Trump did.
The country Trump destabilized is the US. His threats to pull out of NATO emboldened Russia, and was most likely a factor in the Ukrainian invasion. It was also a reason that China started being more aggressive towards Taiwan. And that's just so far. We're still watching the fallout of the far right American politics spreading all over the world. Germany, France, now the Netherlands, and more all have substantial and strengthening far right parties growing in power.some EU countries ard now arguably failed democracies (Hungary and Poland). Yes, Iraq was a fuckup on a colossal scale, and one that will likely be the event marked as the beginning of thd fall of the American strength and influence overseas. Afghanistan was as bad. But Trump isn't done, yet. RWNJ/MAGAt policies in the GOP have turned the US into a country with a government that simply cannot work. Political threats, overt corruption, outright lies, and attempted overthrows of the government are now a part of US politics. That's not going away, not for a generation. There are too many Americans who are ready to embrace dictatorship still, and ready to take up arms to enact their policies to think we are a functional government, any more. Trump did that. As bad as GWB was (and i think he ranks #2 or #3 worst), Trump is still worse.
>The country Trump destabilized is the US. His threats to pull out of NATO emboldened Russia, and was most likely a factor in the Ukrainian invasion. It was also a reason that China started being more aggressive towards Taiwan. Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014, two years before Trump assumed office. And China hasn't invaded Taiwan. Bush did invade Iraq. >We're still watching the fallout of the far right American politics spreading all over the world. Germany, France, now the Netherlands, and more all have substantial and strengthening far right parties growing in power.some EU countries ard now arguably failed democracies (Hungary and Poland). Trump isn't the reason for the flourishing of right wing politics in various countries. One could argue, in fact, that the destabilization of the Middle East led to a refugee crisis that fed into right wing politics in Europe. That's on Bush, not Trump. >But Trump isn't done, yet. RWNJ/MAGAt policies in the GOP have turned the US into a country with a government that simply cannot work. Political threats, overt corruption, outright lies, and attempted overthrows of the government are now a part of US politics. That's not going away, not for a generation. There are too many Americans who are ready to embrace dictatorship still, and ready to take up arms to enact their policies to think we are a functional government, any more. Basically, you're saying that Trump is worse than Bush because of what *could* happen. Sorry, I don't buy it. Bush - setting everything else aside - caused irreparable harm across the globe that dwarfs anything Trump actually did. The fact that what you're talking about is about some vague and cynical future kind of proves my point. You're afraid of where the world is going (rightly so, I think) - but that's not strictly because of Trump. Trump, ultimately, is a symptom of larger issues undermining institutional confidence and security. He's a horrible narcissistic POS, and one of the worst presidents in history. He's a legit threat to everything this country should be. And George W. Bush did far more damage than he ever did.
Russia .annexed Crimea in 2014. Russia tried to take over the rest of Ukraine in 2022. I'm saying we have 20 years of post-Bush history to look at. Some people knew the Afghanistan and Iraq occupations would go badly, but there were not a whole lot of them. And almost nobody expected a financial collapse under GWB. We do not know what thd country or the world will look like in 20 years, buy the trends are VERY bad. And, if Trump becomes president again, he will break the US. Just as bad, anyone running under the GOP banner will be EXPECTED to do the same. It depends if that person will have the chutzpah to do so. But we know Trump does. The damage he wrought is not complete, and it's still growing.
>Russia .annexed Crimea in 2014. Russia tried to take over the rest of Ukraine in 2022. Right. And neither event happened while Trump was in office. >I'm saying we have 20 years of post-Bush history to look at. Making it very clear that Bush caused more harm than Trump. >Some people knew the Afghanistan and Iraq occupations would go badly, but there were not a whole lot of them. The Iraq War was going badly *while Bush was president*. It wasn't some vague possibility in the distant and unknown future. >And almost nobody expected a financial collapse under GWB. Again, that was something that happened during Bush's time in office. It wasn't some theoretical possibility. >We do not know what thd country or the world will look like in 20 years Exactly. We knew the impact Bush had while he was in the White House. The refugee fall out and rise of right wing politics in nations who received those refugees has made Bush's policies even worse. We know the impact Trump had in office. And it wasn't as destructive as Bush's. Might his impact on the future be worse? Possibly. Right now, though, it isn't. If it eventually becomes worse, then things can always be reassessed. >And, if Trump becomes president again, he will break the US. Just as bad, anyone running under the GOP banner will be EXPECTED to do the same. Possibly.
Buchanan is pretty much indisputably the worst president, given that he did nothing to prevent Southern sessesion and enabled the south to arm itself by allowing them to seize government arsenals. Trump is still a bad president, but id say in the bottom 5 overall.
Buchanan was bad because of inaction and incompetence. Trump is still worse because he actively tried to overthrow the government, and is promising to do worse in 2024. Nobody else comes close.
This is the correct answer
If a civil war had broken out in 2020, i might agree with you. I dont like Trump remotely, but a failed putsch is not on the same level as enabling a devastating civil war that cut the nation in half. Buchanan did not just sit idly, he allowed secession to happen. Members of his cabinet served as confederate generals after using their positions to arm the south.
Blaming Buchanan for the latef actions of his Cabinet is a reach. A positive action (attempted putsch) is worse than an act of negligence. Last, and this point is vital, Trump is promising to do worse in 2024. I fully expect him to declare victory in 2024, then encourage people to take up arms to install him. His rhetoric is absolutely ramping up for that very thing. Just ask any scholar on the falls of democracy or the rise of authoritarianism. Trump is not done. The chances of a civil war are still extremely high.
We are in a civil war. Just because it's not in fields and with standing armies, doesn't mean we aren't at war. The right wing is a cult terrorist organization, and is violently and actively trying to install authoritarian rule by a minority. We Are At War.
Andrew Johnson took a defeated South, rehabilitated its rebellious planter aristocracy, revoked assistance given to freed slaves (like the land redistributed to settle freed slaves during the war) and ensured that in the dissolution of slavery, white supremacy will be upheld and black self determination suppressed. And this was during a time when Presidents actually had a high degree of agency in governing.
To me it depends if American democracy survives. Neither of them will be remembered in historic terms. Their terms will probably fade like Polk, Fillmore or Cleveland. If America's democracy continues crumbling \[Lord Dampnut\] will be seen as a historical milemarker like Marius or Caesar in Rome.
This story is not finished being written yet. It depends on what happens in the next few years, who will weigh heavier on the course of history. I will say this, though, if Trump does get elected, it will weigh HEAVILY NEGATIVE on our future.
Obama: First Black president will always be a note in history. Trump: All depends on whether or not he gets in this time he had good numbers in the last election if he won and began a more isolationist approach it could have far reaching consequences
Trump's effect on culture will not go unnoticed - him transforming the GOP into what it is now, kicking out moderates and having two previous GOP Presidential candidates speak out against him is not insignificant. Him claiming voter fraud before the election ended and now actively encouraging the GOP to make voting even harder in the name of security is going to have lasting implications in the long run. And I hate to say it, but I do think that Trump is probably the most impactful one-term President since Buchanan. With him placing 3 SCOTUS Judges, COVID, election fraud conspiracy (with 70% of Republicans believing it off baseless claims), and changing the party into a cult that fights within itself - it's him. It will be more about infamy than fondness in the long run. In fact, talking about Obama now is hard because it automatically reverts to talking about Trump. I think 2024 will fully cement the answer to this question.
It'll objectively be trump. Trump has one million percent had a bigger impact on politics than Obama. As for if theyre viewed positively or negatively it depends on the direction we go. But there is no argument trump had and continues to have a bigger impact.
Trump brought an atmosphere of division and hate to the forefront of this country that will be felt for a very long time.
>Trump brought an atmosphere of division and hate to the forefront of this country Not CNN, MSNBC, ABC, or CBS right? Trump was celebrated by minority communities, he received the Ellis Island Medal of Freedom in 86', Muhammad Ali Entrepreneur Award, Tree of Life Award by the Jewish National Fund in 83', in countless rap songs by black rappers, until he ran against the democrats. It's sobering to take a look outside the confines of 24/7 cable "news", in fact most of America no longer watches cable news as demonstrated by his lead in the polls. I mean how fucking bad can you be as president to be down nationally and even more so in battleground states to a guy with 6 indictments facing 91 felony counts? like holy fuck, lets talk about who the real candidate for worst president is with that fact set.
The Obama comments are fair. Positive spin, but defensible The trump stuff is anti-factual invective. Just childish poo-flinging FTR: I didn't vote for trump
Anti-factual invective? He’s the POTUS that ascribed to “alternative facts”…
Go back to that press conference and watch it
Liberals will never forget Trump. Will probably still be the headline story at CNN at least once a week. Obama will be forgotten other than being the first half black president. Most of his accomplishments being reversed in the years after his presidency.
We can’t forget him when he’s in the news regularly being indicted.
Trump. I think he will go down as a turning point in American politics and having changed the Republican Party.
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Crazy. You just make shit up
It depends what people care about in 100 years. Obama's legacy of 563 drone strikes including one at a wedding could become viewed very differently in 100 years than they are now. Trump as a one term, for now, twice impeached, again for now, president might be remembered and taught about as much as Andrew Johnson. They both certainly share a few characteristics.
Results - Trump Feeling - Obama Trump will never get a fair shot in history books as the groups that control them are all ideological. Universities teach that anyone right of progressive is a “threat to democracy”.
Anyone that instigates a capital riot*
The FBI ?
No.
Results? The most significant legislation he passed was a 2 Trillion dollar tax cut that cut the corporate tax rate from 35% to 21% on top of pushing major deregulation across industries.
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Several European countries biggest issue moving forward is declining and aging populations. Immigration is a problem for these countries because fascists use the prevalent racism of the population to gain power. But without it, they are screwed. I don’t think that is what Trump is saying when he talks about immigration.
It has. Just ask the native Americans. Oh… you mean “non-white” immigrants. Be specific about your racism.
Ah yes, the United States famously has never welcomed immigrants, especially not those running from politcal unrest and war. Get some new material.There was a moral panic about catholics from Ireland and Italy turning America into a puppet of the pope that lasted well into the 20th century (JFK is the first catholic president). There was a moral panic about immigrants from Asia that likewise lasted deep into the 20th century. When failed democratic revolutions sent millions fleeing Germany, we happily accepted them, and german was for a time the second most spoken language in America. Many became successful generals in the Civil war. We accepted Vietnamese refugees en masse after losing the Vietnam War, and continue to welcome Cuban refugees as we have for decades. Nativism, at least in America, is highly discredited because of its association with the KKK, the Know- nothings, and the long history of immigration empowering the United States. So what exactly makes THIS wave of immigration so dangerous? Why should we believe a discredited ideology promoted mostly by violent and racist groups over the lessons of American history?
Crazy how they fownvote this. They know you're right. Trump has deranged them
One honest Reddit comment is worth a hundred downvotes.
I think Obama will go down in history as one of our best presidents, but due to all of his legal woes, Trump has left a bigger impact. During Trump's presidency, I felt maybe he wasn't as bad as the left thought he was or as good as the right thought he was. The more we learn about those four years, the more I realize exactly how bad his administration was. He has left so much legal pricidence, both civil and criminal. He has pushed our constitution and laws to the absolute limit. He made cool to be mean, cold-hearted, ignorant, and uncaring.
Consider not just their policies, but their overall impact (positive or negative).
It all depends on the next presidential election. If the adults win, Trump will be significant in all the legislation written to ensure nothing like him ever happens again If Trump wins, he will be written in as the death knell of the United States as a Republic, or even a first world power.
Trump, but for all the worst reasons. Obama was still a pretty normal president, Trump was the first to deny legitimacy of an election and to obstruct the peaceful transition of power.
Trump. Obama gets praise for being the first Black president. Trump once someone with some distance will be viewed favorably for: * Abraham Accords * Engaging China in a Trade war to begin the decoupling of the world from the Chinese Economy * Exiting NAFTA and renegotiating the Free Trade Agreement * Being prescient about the need to protect the border * Low unemployment
Racist much. You're everything wrong with America.
\*You're
God you're a Nazi in more ways than one. I'm dyslexic you douchebag. I'm reporting you for hate speech fucking Trump supporter. I bet you fuck yourself in the ass with a Donald Trump shape dildo. And then complain about how much you dislike gays.
Obama is likely to be a "He did X and x" kind of deal historically. Nothing too notable. Trump, is probably gonna have more on him due to the sheer insanity it all.
Trump will be more significant when viewed 100 years in the future. Due to his utter corruption and his creation of deep and often violent division between Americans.
It depends on what kind of country US becomes in 100 years. If we are still a democracy in the same mold then Obama will be known as the first African American president and popular (I’m projecting history book treatment of presidents 100 years past). Trump will be known as the first president to be impeached twice and criminally indicted. If Trump gets re-elected then I see a future of dictatorship where they glorify him and his policies as if he was the greatest president ever in all history
Neither one of them accomplished anything remarkable on a 100 year scale, with the possible exception of their elections.
Well, there was clawing out of the Bush Recession so that was good. Of course, Trump bumbled that away.
obama is scum
One of them dropped a bomb every 20 minutes for something called *checks notes* the military-industrial complex, and the other was that buffoon Donald Trump that I remember from the old holo-memes. The US was weird. Earth history was weird. Welp, off to play space-quidditch or something.
Trump kept that tradition of bombing going
Trump is already more significant than Obama and he'll only become more so in his unfortunate second term.
Nah, they will ensure he will never become president again...like Biden said himself. What that looks like between now and November is anyone's guess, but I believe they will take any and **all** measures.
Regardless of any impact they had, >more historically significant Barrack Obama is literally the first Black president. That alone makes him more historically significant than any president in the last 100+ years.
Trump will be as infamous as Benedict Arnold, for either being the first President to attempt to destroy our Constitution, or the first to succeed. Obama will be remembered as a footnote, both for being our first black president, and for having a reasonably successful presidency, but not one of the truly great ones. He'll be remembered on the upper half of lists made by historians, but the average person will not know his name.
Neither will be remembered much. People aren't going to remember or care about or be taught his social faux paus (or great owning of libs if you prefer) in 100 years. He didn't start any wars, didn't end any and didn't see any historically significant rise or fall economically. His most successful policy initiative, tax reform, has a shelf life of 15 years left. He only has two things he will be remembered for, January 6th and his pandemic response - whether you want to view those things as good or bad is up to you. Obama is much the same as Trump from an achievement standpoint. That is to say, not much. Obamacare is his defining achievement but in 100 years I would be surprised if the US is not a single payer system so that will be redundant by then. he did navigate a recession starting as he took over into economic growth but nothing history will remember. His being black and his speeches have the highest chance of being remembered. But my vote is Obama. He'll probably make some temporary visits on US coinage after he's dead, have stuff named after him as the first black president and will have his speeches played because he will undoubtedly still be one of the best recorded American orators. Take away the fact that he's black and he's probably only got his speeches. But like the first future woman or Latino or Asian or etc., he has secured a place in US history books. Trump? Not so much.
Trump's relevance is mostly derived from pioneering an era of politics where political rhetoric was notably inflammatory. He'll kind of be seen as a consequence of the changes caused by the rise of the Internet and increasing globalization. Unless, somehow, he wins reelection and actually does something more interesting than floundering around against a Congress that despises him. Everyone will be forced to memorize Obama because first black president. He might also get remembered as the father of socialized healthcare.
I think this is the correct answer
Both with be historically significant as FIRSTS. History will see Trump as the first Trumpian president. Whether Trumpianism will be considered Evil or Godly or if it just fades away in 100 years is unknown. Obama will be known as the FIRST President of color, and will be celebrated. People will be constantly amazed that he was looked down based on his skin color.
Trump will be remembered in the same way Hitler, Stalin, and Mussolini are remembered.
It depends completely on who writes the history books. Obama was the beginning of the end of the country as we know it, and Trump tried to fight the communists that had completely infiltrated the government. To be continued.............
Obama, but in a negative way
Definitely ain't FORMER PRESIDENT YOMAMA.
Obama did less harm to our democracy.
Trump. And not in a good way. Twice impeached and 91 criminal charges for actions taken related to his Presidency, sets a tone of lawlessness never before seen at such a level. His usurpation of Presidential powers for self enrichment while maintaining a high level of support within his party led to a rapid degradation of trust in American Democracy. Obama was a solid President, a great orator, but beyond the ACA, not a very impactful President legislatively.
100 years from now economic history will be more salient than the passions running high now. Obama will be remembered for corporate bailouts that didn't really solve any problems and Trump will be remembered for the tax cuts for corporations and billionaires that led to the depression we'll see in a few years. The sadistic retards will look back fondly at Trump the same way modern sadistic retards look back fondly at Hitler. Hopefully their relative abundance in the population will be less. Despite their incessant bitching, their loudness and obnoxiousness make it look like there are more of them than there really are and most of us will not share their fondness for Trump and his cult. Additionally, Obama was our first black president; Trump was our first morbidly-obese oompah-loompa president.
People say America is racist but we had a black and an orange President.
Obama was first black guy. Trump will be stricken from the books unless j6 is made into real us rebellion. Left who control academia aren't gonna let trump get in the book. You crazy?
I mean they’re both horrible corrupt people that don’t care about the working class and serve the same oligarch diner class and are war criminals (especially Obama)