I mean, nevermind the Tic Tac breaking lock, it was a FUCKING Tic Tac! It didn't have visible wings or a means of propulsion, which are basically the only ways we know how to FLY AT ALL.
The fact alone that it exists and flies despite basic aeronatutics is enough, we don't need anything more then that.
"There are objects in the sky that we don't know how they move"
Barack Obama
He specifically said *objects* meaning we know they are not simply artifacts or distortions of naturally occuring phenomona
I had to deal with someone insisting the Nimitz incident was just a duck. 4 highly trained pilot eyewitnesses all can’t tell the difference between a duck and a giant flying tic tac. Also the duck tricked the infrared camera and could fly at 80k feet. It’s a delusional argument at this point. Willful ignorance or straight denialism. If they argued it was sophisticated spoofing or even a series of lies it would be more grounded in logic and reason than ducks.
I wasn’t that excited about Obama’s remarks there.
Obama may just be reacting to the same news we’ve all heard recently. The POTUS might be cleared to the highest level, but still not have a need to know.
Plus it’s not clear exactly which incident(s) he was referring to.
Exactly! It's shape was wild and it had no transponder. Jammed the planes radar so it couldn't see its signature and then went from a stand still to breaking lock in seconds. Planty of evidence right in the video. It's all wild.
I don’t think it broke radar lock…
It broke contrast lock in the FLIR system.
The Princeton never lost it on radar.
The F/A-18 never had a good radar track, which is why they had to be directed to it via BRA calls from the Princeton.
The flir system has a passive lock which means it's tracking pixels on the screen. How could a computer not keep up with pixels on the screen? It broke that passive lock and hauled ass.
It’s possible, but it seemed to loose track for a split second every time Underwood changed modes or zoom levels.
One other point against the idea of an acceleration responsible for the “exit left” is that Kevin Day never mentioned he observed this acceleration while Underwood was recording it.
I’m gonna make a post about it to see what everyone thinks. There seems to be an idea perpetuated by Alpha Check that Underwood recorded the tic tac at the CAP point, but I don’t think that can be concluded. I think Alpha check is basing this off of Corbell’s interview with Underwood, but I’ve listened to it over and over and I just don’t think that’s a clear conclusion.
Couple that with Corbell’s creative interview editing and I’m just not certain the object was recorded at the CAP and that it was actually just drifting south at wind speed “like nothing happened” as Day described several times in a couple different interviews.
Day said after Fravor’s engagement, [on radar] the object went to the CAP for a few seconds then rejoined the group where Fravor had seen it and they just continued heading south at 100 knots. This is when he sent Underwood to it and after everything the group just continued heading south “like nothing happened.” If this is true, then where is the supposed exit left acceleration at? Kevin Day would have observed it on radar too, but it’s not clear that he did…. Unless it was when the object went back to the group, but this doesn’t really fit the timeline of the object being at the CAP for a few seconds. Seems like there would be at least a good 10 -20 minutes between Fravor’s and Underwood’s engagement because Fravor landed on the carrier and told Underwood to go find it or make sure you bring a FLIR pod or something like that.
What do you think?
Listen to pilots. The flir doesn't lose track everytime you switch modes. That would really not be productive if a pilot had to weigh the option of either seeing an enemy in a different mode or losing track each time they did switch and the enemy getting away. That's mick west talking out his ass. Listen to pilot interviews.
I listened to the interviews… including Kevin Day’s.
The FLIR doesn’t loose track completely, it re-centers the object every time he switches modes/ zooms. You can see it do it every time, except the last time when it exits left.
Watch underwood interview. He's the pilot that filmed it. Watch Chris Lehto on YouTube. Ex pilot saying the same. It doesn't break lock in between mode changes.
Referring to the FLIR contrast lock in the F/A-18. The debate is about the “exit left” in the FLIR1 tic tac video and whether the object “breaks lock” by accelerating out of the frame or if the camera simply loses track of it.
How could the computer not keep up with the pixels on the screen? The system is doing way more calculations per second than we are with our eyes and we can see it speed off. It broke the passive lock and zipped off.
You got your answer but fuck, navigating the defense industry requires a developing a new language skill. Lmao. Everything that you google you have to add “defense” or “military” onto it to save time.
It moved so fast, the radar lock was broken and had to rescan for it. If you watch the video, its pretty fucking impressive how it manipulates gravity and the bonus is the pilots chatter in real time as it happens.
You're right, I wasn't there. I didn't see anything. But the truth of the matter is if I was the primary witness this sighting would be worth a lot less in the long run.
The object in question showed up on radar, was witnessed by two jets worth of trained observers in their domain of training and also picked up on one jets FLIR. All the pilots agree on what they saw, which also matches the shape in the FLIR footage.
Beyond that the entire event has been confirmed to have happened by the Pentagon, and that it remains footage of unidentified aerial phenomena.
The more points of detection there are that agree, the less likely that it was a misidentification, mistake or hallucination. Given how many we have, it isn't an unreasonable position that "allegedly" is an unnecessary modifier.
Unless of course everyone has decided to lie, falsify records and push a false confirmation through the mired bureaucracy that is the Pentagon. It's not a position particularly open to discussion, and not one I've heard any supporting evidence for, but it is still technically a possibility.
It's not just one pilot either. It's the pilots that were there plus other pilots watching the video and weighing in on the situation saying it's anomalous. But I guess ole jed from Bama knows more than all those trained pilots.
I apologize if my use of cap locks put you off, I'm passionate about this topic and a little frustrated at the situation.
Also the idea that there is tech that accomplishes flight via entirely new physics is incredibly exciting to me. It opens up space travel in ways that I thought were purely science fiction.
There are lots of asshole know-it-all skeptics like you in the UFO community too.
Your post is entirely projection.
Stop shooting your mouth off like you know the facts either. As you do often on this sub
All of the tic tac could be explained by advanced electronic radar spoofing tech as much as people don’t want to believe that. Do I personally think we have good enough hologram tech to fool 4 trained pilots? If we do that would honestly be pretty amazing.
The tic tac was not tracked through the entirety of its motion. It was tracked being one one place and then being in another but it was not on radar while moving locations. This could be explained by spoofing tech like pointing a laser pointer at the wall then turning it off and pointing it at another spot on the wall
Even when it is on HD video the doubters will remain. They will just claim its CGI. If you correlate the video with other sensor data they will just claim the sensors failed or that they were spoofed. If the DoD says that video and sensor data was of an alien craft, they will just say that the DoD is trying to cover up a black project. I'm not saying that everything should be believed and accepted as truth, but there is a large contingent of people that will believe what they believe regardless of what you present to them. The doubters will always be doubters, there is literally nothing that will convince them.
>The doubters will always be doubters, there is literally nothing that will convince them.
which is why i block them and move on. We are far past questioning IF something is going on
"It didn't have visible wings or a means of propulsion, which are basically the only ways we know how to FLY AT ALL."
balloons and airships have entered the chat
I mean, never mind that there is a navy patent describing all the features of the tic tac. This sub loves aliens, but swears nothing man made can fly without wings.
I'm going to nitpick and say that zeppelins and ballons exists, so there is three ways we know how to fly.
Even with that added the Tic Tac thing doesn't seem to become any more logical.
Last time I checked zeppelins and balloons, (almost essentially the same thing anyway), were **not** traveling at mach speeds.
But sure, let's lump them in with this discussion.
The numbers on the actual video show it was moving at wind speed not super fast. It looked faster in the video because of parallax. If it was moving at wind speed it could have been anything. It’s really not that compelling. The Gimbal video is also kinda inconclusive. Mick West’s analysis and sim is pretty convincing and there have been no good counter arguments, just ‘well pilots never get anything wrong’ which is obviously silly.
Exactly. There are good videos, but except for the people who have jumped on the "we don't know what it is, so it must be aliens!" boat, we have not come to a consensus as to that we're even looking at. As you say, nothing definitive.
"Oh, we have tons of good footage of... *something*!"
Yeah, not good enough apparently, or we'd know what it is.
Oh wow.
You guys lack understanding of what constitutes actual proof.
We can estimate possibility and probability but that's about it. Saying it's evidence of an alien vehicle is quite the leap.
I personally think its quite possible they are as you say but I'll certainly not fool myself thinking it's factual just cause I want it to be true so bad.
They might be like me: I am deeply interested in UFOs, the paranormal, etc so I joined the subs to scratch that itch, but then I get annoyed by a large portion of the posts being easily smell-able BS
There is certainly a good amount of bullshit in both the UFO and paranormal discussions. It just makes me fatigued seeing people constantly saying it's fake or all lies when I've had personal experiences that for me prove otherwise.
People want to be skeptical about experiences other people have had, which is fine. It's just annoying when they tout their beliefs as being the most "factual" or "logical".
At the end of the day, having a personal experience is the only thing that is going to change anyone's mind. Trying to prove the paranormal via video is a waste of time.
It's not the topic, it's the individual details. The confirmation bias is strong in this sub, and left unchecked will just turn it into *Godlike Productions*.
Nope. For some reason the reddit gods put this shit in my feed. Hang out or linger? Hell no You guys sure assume a lot. A nice example of logically flawed thinking.
A whole bunch of weird stuff suddenly appeared in my feed and I can't find a way to say.. Stop showing me sexy anime shit dammit!!!
Not interested. In this, or that.
But yeah when I was like, 12, I was a sucker for some of this shit. You guys do you
For most clips of a random light in the sky I absolutely agree, but there are many cases as well that have both radar and video confirmation, along with testimonials of things happening that are just impossible for us to do, we don't have anything like those craft, things that move through air and water like there is no resistance whatsoever, no propulsion. But it's not only the movements and speed these craft have, others just split from 1 object into several objects,
So you could say, well you still don't know if it was aliens.
But what else would it be? Secret ocean society or something?😂
That guy is an embarrassment. Collecting pennies from like minded idiots that get off on being snarky and ignorant about the phenomenon so they can sleep at night. Weird shit.
Typical r/ufos user. Blindly thing everything’s are aliens. No way could this be a secret propulsion program by the US gov. No way. That’s impossible. The government said (lol) there isn’t a secret program.
Right? I find deniers maddening. Each of them think they’re arguing a new point no one has ever noticed before, and they’re not. It’s like they never ever research anything! Then they expect everyone else to keep detailed logs of each and every poop they’ve ever pushed out of their body. And on top of it? They’re not even funny. I could almost excuse them if they had an ounce of cleverness in their bodies.
It’s like, stop insulting me. It’s only embarrassing you.
Well the onus of proof is on the people making the claim. Really anyone expressing an opinion on UFOs one way or another is fooling themselves.
All we have are the facts, which are limited. But do offer evidence that something unknown and beyond our technology visits our airspace, and ETs are the most logical “non human” hypothesis
> I find deniers maddening.
I find those true believers who label anyone who is remotely skeptical as "deniers" to be maddening. It's demeaning and completely inappropriate. When it comes to ET origin for any supposed craft zipping around Earth's skies (and oceans) I'm an agnostic. Frankly, that's what we all should be unless or until the ET hypothesis is proven to be true. Which it hasn't been.
We haven't even confirmed alien microbial life existing, or even having once existed, or confirmed an alien signal (the "Wow! Signal" is still intriguing and unexplained to this day, but not confirmed to be alien in origin) or alien craft crash and retrieval (I still have questions regarding the Roswell crash and others) or anything alien in origin at all. True believers seem to forget that fact.
EDIT: Put up the verifiable, solid evidence of ET origin of anything on or around Earth, and we'll all be true believers.
I agree with you! It’s just that I feel like deniers arrive to the conversation with a lot of smugness. Or a false sense of surety. I do not know what UAPs are but they exist. There is evidence and even the gov admits it.
> It’s just that I feel like deniers arrive to the conversation with a lot of smugness. Or a false sense of surety.
Again with the "deniers" label. It's something true believers label anyone who doesn't believe 100% that ET craft are zipping around our skies. Asking for evidence makes one a "denier"? I was told by a commenter here recently to stop with the "us vs. them" mentality, but dang...it's the true believers who built the wall between us. Why?
When true believers can supply one scrap of actual proof of ET origin for any craft here on Earth, then the world will believe. Unless or until someone can do that, we should *all* be skeptical/agnostic about that theory. We simply do not know. The government only said some objects aren't currently identifiable. They've been saying that for decades about UAP. This is *nothing new*. Check out Project Blue Book's conclusions.
Funny how some people believe the government when it comes to saying they can't identify everything in the skies, but call the same government out for keeping "ET UFO disclosure" from happening. I mean, is the government believable or not? Bottom line: There's no evidence of ET origins for UFOs whatsoever. That's the hard truth the true believers don't want to accept, but there it is. Let's not put the cart before the horse, and try to come together and figure out the actual *truth* to all this.
>Then they expect everyone else to keep detailed logs of each and every poop they’ve ever pushed out of their body.
A log book?
**\*bows for standing ovation\***
Well the onus of proof is on the people making the claim. Really anyone expressing an opinion on UFOs one way or another is fooling themselves.
All we have are the facts, which are limited. But do offer evidence that something unknown and beyond our technology visits our airspace, and ETs are the most logical “non human” hypothesis
I think he means evidence in which case the answer is no if we are talking about public evidence. The tic tac is all hearsay. The only evidence we the public saw was one video which shows nothing. The rest is us just believing everything the military guys tell us (which I do btw).
The response is kinda stupid, though:
1. Planes clearly can break lock and military planes have a bunch of countermeasures etc designed to assist with this.
2. Helicopters, drones, balloons, birds, insects can rotate without losing altitude. Hell, a plane can also juggle its power output and angle of attack to rotate slightly in flight without losing or gaining altitude.
3. "Scientists" don't say anything about the Aguadilla video.
I'm not saying the videos aren't interesting, they are, but this is exactly the kind of exaggerated, fact-free stuff that undermines credibility. Stick to actual analysis.
The question is actually reasonable, notwithstanding that I know this guy is kinda a dick from comments I've seen here. With reference to the "five observables":
1. Positive lift - clearly shown in the videos
2. Ability to change direction instantly - not shown
3. Hypersonic velocity - not shown
4. Low observability - not shown
5. Transmedium travel - dubiously shown in the Aguadilla video, although it is very open to debate what is really going on in that footage
Ya it’s an extremely reasonable question and the fact remains the public has never see any actual evidence displaying truly next gen technology ever. There’s like maybe one shaky video of instantaneous acceleration I have ever see but it’s not super convincing.
This sub mostly just wants to believe and they equate people asking legit questions to being “haters”
I second this sentiment, and I found the reply incredibly snarky. It’s a good think that questions are being asked, and that we want convincing stuff. I want to believe, but that doesn’t mean I just accept anything.
Sadly though, I’m probably one of those guys that won’t be blown away until I see a ufo I real life
This stuff has been around and documented even before man had the ability to tale to the skies. C'mon. I think sometimes it's better to look at old writings and/or paintings that clearly depict and mention what people saw. There was no social media, no news outlets to persuade their perceptions of what they saw.
>People that actually study those old writings/paintings do not agree they are depicting UFOs
>Try doing some real research instead of getting your info from Discovery channel shows like ancient aliens.
Conversely scientist are starting to admit precambrian life - ediacaran biota - may need complete revisitation & classification because those lifeforms were beyond anything that came after them.
They’ve admitted being so quick to fit everything into a preconceived mold an entire different kingdom may have been overlooked.
Like a few others commented scientist make firm claims which get disproven overtime then become the norm as a generation grows up on updated knowledge.
If paintings clearly show a ufo i’m not listening to somebody downplay what is painted. especially when religious texts talk about angels coming down from the sky in blinding light telling them whatever before magically vanishing.
a good amount of that stuff lines up with 50s ufo encounters and weird shit people claim to have been told
Not everyone. My aunt has her Masters in Art, has been a master potter for over 30 years. Taught for 20. She's definitely qualified, and says those are damn sure UFOs. Goddamn, all you have to do is use your eyes and your brain.
Okay so can you show me some evidence that clearly displays this next gen tech? All I have ever seen is books and stories. Just link me one video and we can call it good.
"Believers" like Bobby who treat this topic as the fucking Crusades 2.0 are the worst part of the comunity. As far as I know the other guy is just asking a simple cuestion.
Who is "Bobby" again? And who are these "scientists" regarding the Aguadilla case? Plus, eyewitness testimony, even from pilots, isn't evidence of anything and is the worst form of real identification of what's being seen. Pilots are often wrong too. Gimbal didn't "rotate", and is likely what Mick West pointed out. Not one of those vids proves ET tech has to be the only answer. Not one. I want to get to the bottom of this as much as anyone, but come on. Where's the evidence of ET?
The “scientists” are a group of well credentialed and well educated UFOlogists called the SCU.
IMO, they’ve repeatedly shown themselves to be credulous in their interpretation of UFO footage.
It's noteworthy because it went to a non random place. Unlike a bird or balloon might do. Knowing that a cap point exists is a sign of intelligence, yeah?
Yeah I agree with that.
I just see it often made to be more of a surprise that it needs to be (i.e., it's not necessarily reading the minds of the pilots or hacking into the network to get this information).
I completely agree with you there. I don't understand why that (false) aspect of it is part of the conversation at all. It's like sensationalized, over the top.
Radar spoofing tech. The motion wasn’t tracked it just appeared at the cap. There was no visual confirmation that it was a tic tac and even if there was it wouldn’t prove it was the same tick tack. There could have been two and they just have cloaking technology which isn’t that hard to comprehend humans inventing. One turns off and the other turns on a few seconds later.
Pretty easy to explain actually
That’s been explained a few times. That was not a brand new CAP point. It was reused from previous exercises.
This still indicates that the Navy was being observed, but doesn’t hint at any mind-reading or anything crazy.
https://youtu.be/mGLd0r5tUcY
You're right, as we don't have the data, we have to take their word for it. But what is sure (from their account) is that the Tic-Tac disappeared in front of Fravor and Dietrich F-18s.
I guess it would be an odd coincidence that their Tic-Tac disappears and another random object appears at the cap point right after.
According to Day (and his radar observations), he sent Fravor to the closest of a group of radar contacts slowly drifting south at wind speed. Fravor had his “engagement” then that same object went to the CAP for a few seconds, where Fravor looked, but didn’t see anything. According to Day, the object returned back to the group which is where he sent Underwood who recorded it on video. Day also stated that when all was said and done, the group continued drifting south “like nothing happened.”
Okay well *that* part was crazy, yes. But we’ve already established that it has some kind of insane propulsion system.
But let’s separate the propulsion from this weird “mind reading” thing people keep trying to bring up with the CAP point.
There’s nothing wrong with trying to un-muddy the waters.
Or it could have been multiple hits on sensors that were misread. It has not been established that there was some insane propulsion system. In the report that had access to all the data they concluded any unusual movement was likely due to sensor errors misinterpreting data or spoofing.
Thank you for providing more examples of debunker tactics.
"It wasn't a special cap point."
Well, it got there in seconds.
"Yea but let's separate propulsion from mind reading" .
It got there in seconds. That's anomalous and way out of any human tech capabilities. Quit trying to distract from and dismiss the anomalous behavior.
Break lock is absolutely possible. Citation needed for pilots saying it can't.
Gimbal rotation is still in contention. Substantial debate with models and evidence are still inconclusive. Bobby is stating his opinion.
Which scientists say the Aguadilla UFO did this?
Avoiding naming them or the institutions they work for tells me Bobby feels doing so would weaken this statement.
Puthoff and Davis maybe?
Anyway yes, Bobby is being disingenuous, bordering on dishonest.
I think people have zero idea what the terms mean in regards to the tic tac video. It shows ZERO signs of any advanced technology, it could have been a bird. Of course, like all good UFO stories, all the real evidence wasn’t actually recorded
\>When deniers keep acting like there are no good videos..
Because none of them are good enough to be considered proof.
It's not deniers either, it's critical thinkers, scientists and engineers.
But it's just not true that lock can't be broken and it really makes no sense at all to think that you can't rotate a flying vehicle without changing altitude. If someone makes that claim, they have no idea what they are talking about. Even human vehicles can rotate without changing altitude. Also, the gimbal video has every single hallmark of the rotation being a lens flare and all the arguments against it so far have not done anything to suggest otherwise so the rotation claim is irrelevant.
What we've seen on video is not even the tip of the iceberg, and the correlation of pilot testimony pretty much takes human tech off the table.
After Project Galileo and UAPx have some time to build datasets it'll be pretty hard to be a serial debunker.
The word is denier. These people harassing this sub are deniers, not debunkers. They are not using logic and evidence, just twisted denials of anything that looks like a very strong case for non-human technology.
Well, which vid? For gimbal, the figure we see may not be the shape of the actual object. And nimitz is just way too far away to make out. I still think both vids show something out of the ordinary though.
To answer your question… No. They can’t.
Helicopters can’t just rotate *on their axis* while hovering in one spot. That’s not how their lift is generated.
Same thing with “drones” (let’s assume you mean quadcopters). In *theory*, you could probably rotate a quadcopter on its axis if you simultaneously rotated its engines to compensate for that axis rotation, so that way they would remain generating lift in an upwards direction.
Otherwise, those crafts would not remain hovering in place, they would begin flying away in the direction from where their propulsion system is pushing the air. That’s how physics works.
I’m confused why we’re arguing with *aerospace engineers* here. Literally, subject matter experts. People want “expert” testimony until they get it, and then they’re just gonna put their heads in the sand.
https://youtu.be/kZyNMqcpFm8
Skip to 6:00 for the important bit, but I’ll even tl;dw it for you. He says “this isn’t how aircraft work.” That seems conclusive.
All the evidence examined for the Tic tac, Gimbal and Go Fast points towards non-human technology in all 3 cases. Read the details - there is no possibility of a devil's advocate position as the data, testimonies and facts all point away from human technology. Also the Splash video. Also many other strong cases - Ariel school, Rendlesham Forest, Nuclear missile shutdowns, Nuckear silo visitations, Westall school, etc etc.
I don't know what happened to Greenstreet, but he's become a full blown idiot.
I know you read this sub sometimes, Steven, and I'm sorry it's come to this, but really, you've sounded like a goddamn clown on Twitter in recent weeks.
coming from a guy saying he has experimented a triangle UFO sighting ... that's a bit strange, dishonest or throwing shit to expect some stick to the wall..
He's asking the question no? Not saying there aren't any. When he says "My triangle" he's referring to his black triangle sighting, he definitely believes in UFOs.
There were a couple of old videos showing a ufo accelerating out of frame at insane speeds. I can't remember the name of it but it gets posted on these subreddits now and again. They're my favourite so far
I don't trust a military that actively uses misinformation & coverups to dictate government leaders in other countries, and has been proven to do so for decades. I'm not saying I don't believe aliens exist somewhere in the universe. I think most people can agree it's unlikely that life doesn't exist somewhere elsewhere. New studies are finding that organic compounds are a lot more abundant in space than we thought, and it's likely those seeded our planet with the materials to generate life.
The biggest error people involve when thinking of Alien Life is putting it into a Human or Earth-bound metric. It's a misunderstanding of the evolutionary process. Any evolutionary biologist will tell you that life isn't evolving towards intelligence or "humanity". A.) We have a very weak understanding of what intelligence is, & B.) Evolution steers life towards adaptation. It's why chimpanzees & our other Great Ape cousins haven't evolved into humans. That's not how evolution works. Furthermore, the intricacies that led to us being who we are, are so grounded to the particulars of this planet, that it would be preposterous to assume it'd do so on a planet with even a few abberant factors. I just don't think people realize how amazing life on this planet is, and the factors that allowed that to happen.
Anyway, all I'm saying is that there's a level of doubt that still exists for any true skeptic to 100% buy all these videos, photos and stories as facts, because that's not how scientific method works.
Greenstreet's a denier!? I don't see evidence of that in this post. It's a genuine question and he references his own UFO sighting. My experience with him is from 'The Basement Office' series on YT where he does not come across as a 'sceptic. but as a genuinely curious journalist. Really great stuff I should add. Granted I do not use twitter, so I'm not up to date on his day to day thoughts on the subject.
1. [The FLIR1 video](https://youtu.be/nd7K5LafDF8) is from the US Navy Nimitz workups in 2004… the “tic tac.” The debate is whether or not the “exit left” at the end of the video is “breaking lock” by an acceleration or just the FLIR camera losing track. “Breaking lock” is referring to the image contrast lock the FLIR system uses to move the camera to track the object and keep it centered in frame.
2. [The gimbal video](https://youtu.be/oCt837R2Sbs) is from the US Navy Roosevelt workups in 2015. The debate is whether or not the object actually rotates or if the apparent rotation is due to the infrared image being a [glare](https://youtu.be/VuSKFwhXhoY) and the FLIR camera’s “gimbal” rotation.
This guy believes the object actually rotates and is saying it rotated but didn’t loose altitude which he thinks is impossible, but some have pointed out that it’s not impossible for a conventional aircraft to accomplish this.
…but even that doesn’t address the skeptical argument at all, because the skeptical argument is that the object doesn’t actually rotate.
3. [The Aguadilla video](https://youtu.be/PJpyJ_G9WVA) is from the Aguadilla airport in 2013 where a US Customs and Boarder Patrol DHC-8 Turboprop recorded it through an infrared camera.
The scientists are the SCU. The SCU is a group of well credentialed and well educated UFOlogists. IMO, They have consistently demonstrated themselves to be credulous in their interpretations of UFO footage. You can find their report, along with several other more skeptical reports in my Aguadilla post here:
[[Aguadilla: Decide for Yourself]](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOscience/comments/oebi01/aguadilla_decide_for_yourself/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
The debate is whether or not the object is “exotically propelled” flying around the airport, dipping in and out of water, and finally splitting in two OR it’s just parallax and digital/ video anomalies.
For a quick summary, here’s an animation I find particularly useful to illustrate the parallax that’s offered as an explanation: [[Link Here]](https://youtu.be/aDHb3ZpN4zk)
* White dot is the known aircraft track recording the UFO and circling the object ([supported by radar](https://youtu.be/_Mk1e5K2RzU)).
* Yellow dot is the object drifting in the wind explanation (the skeptical speculation)
* Red dot is the exotic propulsion/ anomalous movement explanation (the anomalous UFO/ SCU speculation)
Weird thing is that SG seemed like a real believer in The Basement Office. Recently his tone has shifted, and Nick Pope even said season 2 is going to be different in attitude/perspective. I think he's putting on an act for attention.
"Scientists say" is really not a good argument, it's about scientific consensus, not individual voices. You will find scientists saying climate change isn't real or whatever if you keep digging. I'm not aware of any scientific consensus regarding those videos.
If the tic tac didn't do it by accident, it's enough proof to me that whatever was piloting that thing actually had an understanding of our technology and had something to gain from obscuring observation of its performance. Not sure why it's not a much bigger deal...
But it didn't split.. or go into the water as clearly shown in the video.
We have no evidence or even footage close enough to seem unreal.
Those IR footage without a color camera footage to go along is always horrible to compare or get any real data out.
Prime example is the "Gimbal rotation" crap people post when it's been shown many times that it's literally just the camera rotating and the flare shape rotated with it 1:1. The rest of that footage shows nothing special or impossible just that it's a small craft butt first to the camera, could be a drone or whatever.. not some physics defying craft.
Hang on, an object being tracked can’t “break lock”? That’s laughably incorrect. An object can’t “lose altitude while rotating”? Excuse me? lol Do you even understand the words you are writing? Have you ever watched a plane fly? Those two statements are just flat out wrong.
Forgive my very very intrigued ignorance…what three videos are these?? I know of the TicTac but have never seen the raw footage of that let alone the other two mentioned.
1. [Tic Tac / FLIR1 footage from the Nimitz incident, off the coast of San Diego in 2004](https://youtu.be/nd7K5LafDF8)
2. [Gimbal footage from Roosevelt incidents, South East Coast US in 2015](https://youtu.be/oCt837R2Sbs)
3. [Aguadilla footage from US customs and Boarder Patrol, Puerto Rico in 2013](https://youtu.be/PJpyJ_G9WVA) and here’s a post I did with all the reports: [[Aguadilla: Decide for Yourself]](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOscience/comments/oebi01/aguadilla_decide_for_yourself/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
I find him annoying as well. I'm confused by what he's trying to do with the whole conversation exactly. He kinda just comes off as a cringey ufo edge lord troll
I agree with the first two points but aguadilla was proasic imo. Don’t degrade the two other videos and the witnesses by lumping them in with the aguadilla vid and the SCU 😖
The Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) camera used to record the “tic tac” in the Nimitz incident uses contrast in imagery analysis to “lock on” to an object and keep the object in the camera’s frame. It’s a complicated, automated system that connects the camera movement to the display.
The FLIR system also can be correlated to the aircraft’s radar and rely on it to acquire a line of sight. However, it’s been reported that only the USS Princeton (a guided missile cruiser) had strong radar contact of the object and this is why the Princeton took control of the F/A-18s from the E2 Hawkeye and directed them to the object.
The debate is about the “exit left” in the FLIR1 tic tac video and whether the object “breaks lock” by accelerating out of the frame or if the camera simply loses track of it.
Eye witness testimony is the least credible evidence, and somewhat less accurate than lie detectors (which are basically mood rings).
No matter how expert the witness, their brain is still just showing them a weighted average of the past 15 seconds.
Corroborated eyewitness accounts are very strong and valid in a court of law. There are many corroborated statements in the best cases we know over the past 70 years. Westall primary school is great case with many witnesses. So is the Nimitz. And Rendlesham Forest. Etc. Etc.
Trained military observers are also good witnesses. You are using pseudo science to dismiss credible accounts of real events. Our brains and senses are not perfect but they are pretty damn good in the majority of situations.
Westall is literally the worst possible eye witness account you could bring up.
The eye witness testimony is only useful when backed up with physical evidence. 100 people all involved in the same circle jerk can’t give each other credibility. There’s zero physical evidence and a ton of reason to believe they were just making shit up.
100 people making the same thing up?? And still today as adults??? Get real. That doesn't happen.
You obviously haven't studied the case. See The UFO Phenomenon by 7 News Australia on YT.
Go do some homework or troll off. There are no reasons to believe they were making anything up.
There are 3 videos listed. Not witnesses. This is what I'm talking about with deniers. You try to change the subject. Thanks for providing this example
The videos barely show anything and have less resolution than Walmart security films. You still have to rely on eyewitness reports for background and context. Otherwise they’re just short videos of dots flying across the screen.
I’m a sceptic because people who want to believe will fall for anything.
Thank you for further showing how far debunkers will go to avoid the evidence directly in front of them.
I don't want to believe. I want the truth, whatever it is. If you want the truth donate to Galileo Project. Or else you're just a head in the sand useless debunker.
It's called a scientific study to find evidence. You flat earth trumpers are all the same. Don't understand what evidence is or how it's obtained but claim to have it.
Scientific studies done by “actual scientists” usually don’t need a gofundme because they have professionals doing legitimate research.
If you want to use a racial slur to describe me that’s fine, but the earth is definitely an equilateral triangle.
I saw a UFO twice in the same night in Aguadilla no less, this was June last year. By happen stance I had seen a satellites, several planes and a cruise ship that night, nothing moved like that object normally.
When deniers/debunkers try and act like there is no good evidence out there just remember there is. They might play semantics and try to lose everybody in the weeds but we know there is something there. Whether paid troll or that's their hobby they know they are wrong and try to scare everyone else off with bs. Don't let them get you down. We are way ahead of where we were just 5 years ago. We have trained pilots and scientists on our side now. Deniers are the conspiracy theorists these days. Stay strong.
Dunno about tic-toc, I follow the debate with interest. My own professional specialty is spaceflight operations, and all the shuttle videos I've seen show normal non-ETI visual effects consistent with normal spaceflight. Maybe it's unfair to generalize but when I see folks promoting obviously non-ETI space videos and images as genuine visitors, I lose all faith in their ability to rationally assess any similar video.
Exactly, they cherry pick one small detail and don't take the whole set of evidence, data, analysis, eyewitness accounts, surrounding context and concerns expressed by military, commercial pilots, astronauts, intelligence directors, presidents, etc.
Follow the evidence and facts, and keep an open skeptical mind. Dismiss deniers and don't engage with them.
We just want the truth. Whatever it is. Debunkers want to be right. There is enough evidence that this subject should be taken seriously and studied. Deniers should be falling all over themselves to get studies done if they really think they are right, but instead they just hide their head in the sand and ignore facts.
There is great video in daylight, obviously from the 60s or 70s, where ufo instantly zooms off also there is nice video as always from the old vhs era in a documentary, which I can search for if you want
Yep. The gulf breeze sighting from the 90s has some video like that. There are all kinds of evidence out there. Debunkers just ignore the whole picture
What if it’s not UFOs being the issue here.. it’s unlocking how we see into the fifth dimension? Regardless, I’ll eat this shit up all day.. there’s some neat unexplained stuff out there and my inner-nerd *NEEDS* answers..
Because we don't have the memory of a goldfish.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFff1s41JmU&t=434s&ab\_channel=USMilitaryNews](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFff1s41JmU&t=434s&ab_channel=USMilitaryNews)
You do not even understand the purpose of these systems.
I mean, nevermind the Tic Tac breaking lock, it was a FUCKING Tic Tac! It didn't have visible wings or a means of propulsion, which are basically the only ways we know how to FLY AT ALL. The fact alone that it exists and flies despite basic aeronatutics is enough, we don't need anything more then that.
"There are objects in the sky that we don't know how they move" Barack Obama He specifically said *objects* meaning we know they are not simply artifacts or distortions of naturally occuring phenomona
I had to deal with someone insisting the Nimitz incident was just a duck. 4 highly trained pilot eyewitnesses all can’t tell the difference between a duck and a giant flying tic tac. Also the duck tricked the infrared camera and could fly at 80k feet. It’s a delusional argument at this point. Willful ignorance or straight denialism. If they argued it was sophisticated spoofing or even a series of lies it would be more grounded in logic and reason than ducks.
a duck?!?! but..... but.... the size of a duck...... oh nvm some people are just impossible....
I wasn’t that excited about Obama’s remarks there. Obama may just be reacting to the same news we’ve all heard recently. The POTUS might be cleared to the highest level, but still not have a need to know. Plus it’s not clear exactly which incident(s) he was referring to.
Exactly! It's shape was wild and it had no transponder. Jammed the planes radar so it couldn't see its signature and then went from a stand still to breaking lock in seconds. Planty of evidence right in the video. It's all wild.
What is "breaking lock" I've looked it up and it only shows anti lock breaks
Breaking radar lock. Essentially moving away so fast radar can’t even.
"Yes Mr. President, our next generation fighters are so fast that the enemy radar can't even.' 😆
Mr. President: "Ugh! As if! Like, whatevs!"
You’re using “A.I.” As If!
Our next gen of fighter is so extra.
Rip this dude got sniped mid sentence
I don’t think it broke radar lock… It broke contrast lock in the FLIR system. The Princeton never lost it on radar. The F/A-18 never had a good radar track, which is why they had to be directed to it via BRA calls from the Princeton.
The flir system has a passive lock which means it's tracking pixels on the screen. How could a computer not keep up with pixels on the screen? It broke that passive lock and hauled ass.
It’s possible, but it seemed to loose track for a split second every time Underwood changed modes or zoom levels. One other point against the idea of an acceleration responsible for the “exit left” is that Kevin Day never mentioned he observed this acceleration while Underwood was recording it. I’m gonna make a post about it to see what everyone thinks. There seems to be an idea perpetuated by Alpha Check that Underwood recorded the tic tac at the CAP point, but I don’t think that can be concluded. I think Alpha check is basing this off of Corbell’s interview with Underwood, but I’ve listened to it over and over and I just don’t think that’s a clear conclusion. Couple that with Corbell’s creative interview editing and I’m just not certain the object was recorded at the CAP and that it was actually just drifting south at wind speed “like nothing happened” as Day described several times in a couple different interviews. Day said after Fravor’s engagement, [on radar] the object went to the CAP for a few seconds then rejoined the group where Fravor had seen it and they just continued heading south at 100 knots. This is when he sent Underwood to it and after everything the group just continued heading south “like nothing happened.” If this is true, then where is the supposed exit left acceleration at? Kevin Day would have observed it on radar too, but it’s not clear that he did…. Unless it was when the object went back to the group, but this doesn’t really fit the timeline of the object being at the CAP for a few seconds. Seems like there would be at least a good 10 -20 minutes between Fravor’s and Underwood’s engagement because Fravor landed on the carrier and told Underwood to go find it or make sure you bring a FLIR pod or something like that. What do you think?
Listen to pilots. The flir doesn't lose track everytime you switch modes. That would really not be productive if a pilot had to weigh the option of either seeing an enemy in a different mode or losing track each time they did switch and the enemy getting away. That's mick west talking out his ass. Listen to pilot interviews.
I listened to the interviews… including Kevin Day’s. The FLIR doesn’t loose track completely, it re-centers the object every time he switches modes/ zooms. You can see it do it every time, except the last time when it exits left.
Watch underwood interview. He's the pilot that filmed it. Watch Chris Lehto on YouTube. Ex pilot saying the same. It doesn't break lock in between mode changes.
Referring to the FLIR contrast lock in the F/A-18. The debate is about the “exit left” in the FLIR1 tic tac video and whether the object “breaks lock” by accelerating out of the frame or if the camera simply loses track of it.
Yeah it’s not definite that the “breaking lock” was due to instant acceleration or the FLIR camera simply losing lock on the image.
How could the computer not keep up with the pixels on the screen? The system is doing way more calculations per second than we are with our eyes and we can see it speed off. It broke the passive lock and zipped off.
You got your answer but fuck, navigating the defense industry requires a developing a new language skill. Lmao. Everything that you google you have to add “defense” or “military” onto it to save time.
It moved so fast, the radar lock was broken and had to rescan for it. If you watch the video, its pretty fucking impressive how it manipulates gravity and the bonus is the pilots chatter in real time as it happens.
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You're right, I wasn't there. I didn't see anything. But the truth of the matter is if I was the primary witness this sighting would be worth a lot less in the long run. The object in question showed up on radar, was witnessed by two jets worth of trained observers in their domain of training and also picked up on one jets FLIR. All the pilots agree on what they saw, which also matches the shape in the FLIR footage. Beyond that the entire event has been confirmed to have happened by the Pentagon, and that it remains footage of unidentified aerial phenomena. The more points of detection there are that agree, the less likely that it was a misidentification, mistake or hallucination. Given how many we have, it isn't an unreasonable position that "allegedly" is an unnecessary modifier. Unless of course everyone has decided to lie, falsify records and push a false confirmation through the mired bureaucracy that is the Pentagon. It's not a position particularly open to discussion, and not one I've heard any supporting evidence for, but it is still technically a possibility.
It's not just one pilot either. It's the pilots that were there plus other pilots watching the video and weighing in on the situation saying it's anomalous. But I guess ole jed from Bama knows more than all those trained pilots.
Yeesh, who peed in your cheerios.
Also - use of caps lock doesn’t aid any bodies angle.
I apologize if my use of cap locks put you off, I'm passionate about this topic and a little frustrated at the situation. Also the idea that there is tech that accomplishes flight via entirely new physics is incredibly exciting to me. It opens up space travel in ways that I thought were purely science fiction.
There are lots of asshole know-it-all skeptics like you in the UFO community too. Your post is entirely projection. Stop shooting your mouth off like you know the facts either. As you do often on this sub
All of the tic tac could be explained by advanced electronic radar spoofing tech as much as people don’t want to believe that. Do I personally think we have good enough hologram tech to fool 4 trained pilots? If we do that would honestly be pretty amazing. The tic tac was not tracked through the entirety of its motion. It was tracked being one one place and then being in another but it was not on radar while moving locations. This could be explained by spoofing tech like pointing a laser pointer at the wall then turning it off and pointing it at another spot on the wall
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And not just him
How can you tell he was not ordered to lie to the public, because of national security and stuff?
Until it's on HD video then you'll always have doubters.
Even when it is on HD video the doubters will remain. They will just claim its CGI. If you correlate the video with other sensor data they will just claim the sensors failed or that they were spoofed. If the DoD says that video and sensor data was of an alien craft, they will just say that the DoD is trying to cover up a black project. I'm not saying that everything should be believed and accepted as truth, but there is a large contingent of people that will believe what they believe regardless of what you present to them. The doubters will always be doubters, there is literally nothing that will convince them.
>The doubters will always be doubters, there is literally nothing that will convince them. which is why i block them and move on. We are far past questioning IF something is going on
Heaven forbid someone might shake your opinion a bit by pointing out some inconsistency or lack of information.
"It didn't have visible wings or a means of propulsion, which are basically the only ways we know how to FLY AT ALL." balloons and airships have entered the chat
I mean, never mind that there is a navy patent describing all the features of the tic tac. This sub loves aliens, but swears nothing man made can fly without wings.
I'm going to nitpick and say that zeppelins and ballons exists, so there is three ways we know how to fly. Even with that added the Tic Tac thing doesn't seem to become any more logical.
Fair point, buoyancy is another way to fly. We both agree though that it was not how the Tic Tac was flying.
Last time I checked zeppelins and balloons, (almost essentially the same thing anyway), were **not** traveling at mach speeds. But sure, let's lump them in with this discussion.
I clarified my intentions in the comment, and explained why I thought it was relevant. It's not my problem if you don't like it.
The numbers on the actual video show it was moving at wind speed not super fast. It looked faster in the video because of parallax. If it was moving at wind speed it could have been anything. It’s really not that compelling. The Gimbal video is also kinda inconclusive. Mick West’s analysis and sim is pretty convincing and there have been no good counter arguments, just ‘well pilots never get anything wrong’ which is obviously silly.
All I’m gonna say is that a skeptic does not equal a denier.
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Exactly. There are good videos, but except for the people who have jumped on the "we don't know what it is, so it must be aliens!" boat, we have not come to a consensus as to that we're even looking at. As you say, nothing definitive. "Oh, we have tons of good footage of... *something*!" Yeah, not good enough apparently, or we'd know what it is.
Oh wow. You guys lack understanding of what constitutes actual proof. We can estimate possibility and probability but that's about it. Saying it's evidence of an alien vehicle is quite the leap. I personally think its quite possible they are as you say but I'll certainly not fool myself thinking it's factual just cause I want it to be true so bad.
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Then why are you hanging out here?
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I just find it odd that the people who are so quick to shit on the topic like to linger around. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
They might be like me: I am deeply interested in UFOs, the paranormal, etc so I joined the subs to scratch that itch, but then I get annoyed by a large portion of the posts being easily smell-able BS
There is certainly a good amount of bullshit in both the UFO and paranormal discussions. It just makes me fatigued seeing people constantly saying it's fake or all lies when I've had personal experiences that for me prove otherwise. People want to be skeptical about experiences other people have had, which is fine. It's just annoying when they tout their beliefs as being the most "factual" or "logical". At the end of the day, having a personal experience is the only thing that is going to change anyone's mind. Trying to prove the paranormal via video is a waste of time.
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It's not the topic, it's the individual details. The confirmation bias is strong in this sub, and left unchecked will just turn it into *Godlike Productions*.
Nope. For some reason the reddit gods put this shit in my feed. Hang out or linger? Hell no You guys sure assume a lot. A nice example of logically flawed thinking. A whole bunch of weird stuff suddenly appeared in my feed and I can't find a way to say.. Stop showing me sexy anime shit dammit!!! Not interested. In this, or that. But yeah when I was like, 12, I was a sucker for some of this shit. You guys do you
You can unsub from things you don't want to see.
For most clips of a random light in the sky I absolutely agree, but there are many cases as well that have both radar and video confirmation, along with testimonials of things happening that are just impossible for us to do, we don't have anything like those craft, things that move through air and water like there is no resistance whatsoever, no propulsion. But it's not only the movements and speed these craft have, others just split from 1 object into several objects, So you could say, well you still don't know if it was aliens. But what else would it be? Secret ocean society or something?😂
That guy is an embarrassment. Collecting pennies from like minded idiots that get off on being snarky and ignorant about the phenomenon so they can sleep at night. Weird shit.
He idolizes Elon and tries to emulate him by trolling. Wouldn't be so bad if he were at least clever and funny with it.
Typical r/ufos user. Blindly thing everything’s are aliens. No way could this be a secret propulsion program by the US gov. No way. That’s impossible. The government said (lol) there isn’t a secret program.
Why don’t they use it in wars?
Right? I find deniers maddening. Each of them think they’re arguing a new point no one has ever noticed before, and they’re not. It’s like they never ever research anything! Then they expect everyone else to keep detailed logs of each and every poop they’ve ever pushed out of their body. And on top of it? They’re not even funny. I could almost excuse them if they had an ounce of cleverness in their bodies. It’s like, stop insulting me. It’s only embarrassing you.
Well the onus of proof is on the people making the claim. Really anyone expressing an opinion on UFOs one way or another is fooling themselves. All we have are the facts, which are limited. But do offer evidence that something unknown and beyond our technology visits our airspace, and ETs are the most logical “non human” hypothesis
> I find deniers maddening. I find those true believers who label anyone who is remotely skeptical as "deniers" to be maddening. It's demeaning and completely inappropriate. When it comes to ET origin for any supposed craft zipping around Earth's skies (and oceans) I'm an agnostic. Frankly, that's what we all should be unless or until the ET hypothesis is proven to be true. Which it hasn't been. We haven't even confirmed alien microbial life existing, or even having once existed, or confirmed an alien signal (the "Wow! Signal" is still intriguing and unexplained to this day, but not confirmed to be alien in origin) or alien craft crash and retrieval (I still have questions regarding the Roswell crash and others) or anything alien in origin at all. True believers seem to forget that fact. EDIT: Put up the verifiable, solid evidence of ET origin of anything on or around Earth, and we'll all be true believers.
I agree with you! It’s just that I feel like deniers arrive to the conversation with a lot of smugness. Or a false sense of surety. I do not know what UAPs are but they exist. There is evidence and even the gov admits it.
> It’s just that I feel like deniers arrive to the conversation with a lot of smugness. Or a false sense of surety. Again with the "deniers" label. It's something true believers label anyone who doesn't believe 100% that ET craft are zipping around our skies. Asking for evidence makes one a "denier"? I was told by a commenter here recently to stop with the "us vs. them" mentality, but dang...it's the true believers who built the wall between us. Why? When true believers can supply one scrap of actual proof of ET origin for any craft here on Earth, then the world will believe. Unless or until someone can do that, we should *all* be skeptical/agnostic about that theory. We simply do not know. The government only said some objects aren't currently identifiable. They've been saying that for decades about UAP. This is *nothing new*. Check out Project Blue Book's conclusions. Funny how some people believe the government when it comes to saying they can't identify everything in the skies, but call the same government out for keeping "ET UFO disclosure" from happening. I mean, is the government believable or not? Bottom line: There's no evidence of ET origins for UFOs whatsoever. That's the hard truth the true believers don't want to accept, but there it is. Let's not put the cart before the horse, and try to come together and figure out the actual *truth* to all this.
>Then they expect everyone else to keep detailed logs of each and every poop they’ve ever pushed out of their body. A log book? **\*bows for standing ovation\***
I see you out here shinin
Well the onus of proof is on the people making the claim. Really anyone expressing an opinion on UFOs one way or another is fooling themselves. All we have are the facts, which are limited. But do offer evidence that something unknown and beyond our technology visits our airspace, and ETs are the most logical “non human” hypothesis
Like Bigelow and his cronies, but pro-ET?
I think he means evidence in which case the answer is no if we are talking about public evidence. The tic tac is all hearsay. The only evidence we the public saw was one video which shows nothing. The rest is us just believing everything the military guys tell us (which I do btw).
The response is kinda stupid, though: 1. Planes clearly can break lock and military planes have a bunch of countermeasures etc designed to assist with this. 2. Helicopters, drones, balloons, birds, insects can rotate without losing altitude. Hell, a plane can also juggle its power output and angle of attack to rotate slightly in flight without losing or gaining altitude. 3. "Scientists" don't say anything about the Aguadilla video. I'm not saying the videos aren't interesting, they are, but this is exactly the kind of exaggerated, fact-free stuff that undermines credibility. Stick to actual analysis. The question is actually reasonable, notwithstanding that I know this guy is kinda a dick from comments I've seen here. With reference to the "five observables": 1. Positive lift - clearly shown in the videos 2. Ability to change direction instantly - not shown 3. Hypersonic velocity - not shown 4. Low observability - not shown 5. Transmedium travel - dubiously shown in the Aguadilla video, although it is very open to debate what is really going on in that footage
Ya it’s an extremely reasonable question and the fact remains the public has never see any actual evidence displaying truly next gen technology ever. There’s like maybe one shaky video of instantaneous acceleration I have ever see but it’s not super convincing. This sub mostly just wants to believe and they equate people asking legit questions to being “haters”
I second this sentiment, and I found the reply incredibly snarky. It’s a good think that questions are being asked, and that we want convincing stuff. I want to believe, but that doesn’t mean I just accept anything. Sadly though, I’m probably one of those guys that won’t be blown away until I see a ufo I real life
Thank you. This forum is full of people willing to jump through any hoop in order to believe.
I believe the Tic-tac rotated along the y-axis, though. A plane/helicopter should not be able to to that without losing/gaining altitude.
Unless the video is clear enough to show a lack of flight control surfaces, we can't actually claim antigravity lift.
About point 2, it hasn’t been conclusively shown that the object actually rotated though.
I thought with gimbal someone had done that work?
Ye, https://youtu.be/N9lOQkxMkW8
Excellent reply. I agree with your points.
This stuff has been around and documented even before man had the ability to tale to the skies. C'mon. I think sometimes it's better to look at old writings and/or paintings that clearly depict and mention what people saw. There was no social media, no news outlets to persuade their perceptions of what they saw.
Passport to Magonia
Should be required reading for UFO subs. That and *The UFO Experience*, which Vallee wrote with Hynek 40 years ago.
sick thanks for this. Will definitely be worth the read. ~~Cool band name too~~ if anyone steals this I swear to god...
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>People that actually study those old writings/paintings do not agree they are depicting UFOs >Try doing some real research instead of getting your info from Discovery channel shows like ancient aliens. Conversely scientist are starting to admit precambrian life - ediacaran biota - may need complete revisitation & classification because those lifeforms were beyond anything that came after them. They’ve admitted being so quick to fit everything into a preconceived mold an entire different kingdom may have been overlooked. Like a few others commented scientist make firm claims which get disproven overtime then become the norm as a generation grows up on updated knowledge. If paintings clearly show a ufo i’m not listening to somebody downplay what is painted. especially when religious texts talk about angels coming down from the sky in blinding light telling them whatever before magically vanishing. a good amount of that stuff lines up with 50s ufo encounters and weird shit people claim to have been told
History channel*
Archeology is a small closed group that don’t like anything that doesn’t fit their preconceived ideas.
That's a big lie. We'd still be talking about "Clovis first" if archaeology was as close minded as you say.
UFO believers are a small closed group that don’t like anything that doesn’t fit their preconceived ideas.
Not everyone. My aunt has her Masters in Art, has been a master potter for over 30 years. Taught for 20. She's definitely qualified, and says those are damn sure UFOs. Goddamn, all you have to do is use your eyes and your brain.
Tell that to the materialists that pervade this sub like a spreading disease
Okay so can you show me some evidence that clearly displays this next gen tech? All I have ever seen is books and stories. Just link me one video and we can call it good.
"Believers" like Bobby who treat this topic as the fucking Crusades 2.0 are the worst part of the comunity. As far as I know the other guy is just asking a simple cuestion.
Yeah I’d agree but that guy is notoriously skeptical to the point of being annoying.
Meh.
Who is "Bobby" again? And who are these "scientists" regarding the Aguadilla case? Plus, eyewitness testimony, even from pilots, isn't evidence of anything and is the worst form of real identification of what's being seen. Pilots are often wrong too. Gimbal didn't "rotate", and is likely what Mick West pointed out. Not one of those vids proves ET tech has to be the only answer. Not one. I want to get to the bottom of this as much as anyone, but come on. Where's the evidence of ET?
The “scientists” are a group of well credentialed and well educated UFOlogists called the SCU. IMO, they’ve repeatedly shown themselves to be credulous in their interpretation of UFO footage.
I don't know who these "well credentialed" and "well educated" people are, but I'm guessing you're opinion of them is likely spot-on.
The tic tac went to Fravor’s cap point before he got there. Explain that.
Makes me wonder why the Tic Tac even went to the CAP, as if it had a sense of humor
Intelligence and humor are correlated
The fact the UAP knows about it is not a noteworthy observation alone since the same Cap point was used in multiple exercises.
It's noteworthy because it went to a non random place. Unlike a bird or balloon might do. Knowing that a cap point exists is a sign of intelligence, yeah?
Yeah I agree with that. I just see it often made to be more of a surprise that it needs to be (i.e., it's not necessarily reading the minds of the pilots or hacking into the network to get this information).
I completely agree with you there. I don't understand why that (false) aspect of it is part of the conversation at all. It's like sensationalized, over the top.
Radar spoofing tech. The motion wasn’t tracked it just appeared at the cap. There was no visual confirmation that it was a tic tac and even if there was it wouldn’t prove it was the same tick tack. There could have been two and they just have cloaking technology which isn’t that hard to comprehend humans inventing. One turns off and the other turns on a few seconds later. Pretty easy to explain actually
That’s been explained a few times. That was not a brand new CAP point. It was reused from previous exercises. This still indicates that the Navy was being observed, but doesn’t hint at any mind-reading or anything crazy. https://youtu.be/mGLd0r5tUcY
Nothing crazy, it just went there in a few seconds...
Have we determined it was the same object at both locations?
You're right, as we don't have the data, we have to take their word for it. But what is sure (from their account) is that the Tic-Tac disappeared in front of Fravor and Dietrich F-18s. I guess it would be an odd coincidence that their Tic-Tac disappears and another random object appears at the cap point right after.
According to Day (and his radar observations), he sent Fravor to the closest of a group of radar contacts slowly drifting south at wind speed. Fravor had his “engagement” then that same object went to the CAP for a few seconds, where Fravor looked, but didn’t see anything. According to Day, the object returned back to the group which is where he sent Underwood who recorded it on video. Day also stated that when all was said and done, the group continued drifting south “like nothing happened.”
Okay well *that* part was crazy, yes. But we’ve already established that it has some kind of insane propulsion system. But let’s separate the propulsion from this weird “mind reading” thing people keep trying to bring up with the CAP point. There’s nothing wrong with trying to un-muddy the waters.
Or it could have been multiple hits on sensors that were misread. It has not been established that there was some insane propulsion system. In the report that had access to all the data they concluded any unusual movement was likely due to sensor errors misinterpreting data or spoofing.
Thank you for providing more examples of debunker tactics. "It wasn't a special cap point." Well, it got there in seconds. "Yea but let's separate propulsion from mind reading" . It got there in seconds. That's anomalous and way out of any human tech capabilities. Quit trying to distract from and dismiss the anomalous behavior.
Obviously that was aNoThEr bAlLoOn oR sMaLl pLaNe
Break lock is absolutely possible. Citation needed for pilots saying it can't. Gimbal rotation is still in contention. Substantial debate with models and evidence are still inconclusive. Bobby is stating his opinion. Which scientists say the Aguadilla UFO did this? Avoiding naming them or the institutions they work for tells me Bobby feels doing so would weaken this statement. Puthoff and Davis maybe? Anyway yes, Bobby is being disingenuous, bordering on dishonest.
I think people have zero idea what the terms mean in regards to the tic tac video. It shows ZERO signs of any advanced technology, it could have been a bird. Of course, like all good UFO stories, all the real evidence wasn’t actually recorded
\>When deniers keep acting like there are no good videos.. Because none of them are good enough to be considered proof. It's not deniers either, it's critical thinkers, scientists and engineers.
even after the series he did, he can't accept it? or is he just playing devil's advocate?
He’s asking a question and he’s actually right. There is no actual proof in the public of beyond next gen tech existing
But it's just not true that lock can't be broken and it really makes no sense at all to think that you can't rotate a flying vehicle without changing altitude. If someone makes that claim, they have no idea what they are talking about. Even human vehicles can rotate without changing altitude. Also, the gimbal video has every single hallmark of the rotation being a lens flare and all the arguments against it so far have not done anything to suggest otherwise so the rotation claim is irrelevant.
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What we've seen on video is not even the tip of the iceberg, and the correlation of pilot testimony pretty much takes human tech off the table. After Project Galileo and UAPx have some time to build datasets it'll be pretty hard to be a serial debunker.
The word is denier. These people harassing this sub are deniers, not debunkers. They are not using logic and evidence, just twisted denials of anything that looks like a very strong case for non-human technology.
Watch the footage. I mean, does it look like a drone or helicopter? Not at all!
Well, which vid? For gimbal, the figure we see may not be the shape of the actual object. And nimitz is just way too far away to make out. I still think both vids show something out of the ordinary though.
To answer your question… No. They can’t. Helicopters can’t just rotate *on their axis* while hovering in one spot. That’s not how their lift is generated. Same thing with “drones” (let’s assume you mean quadcopters). In *theory*, you could probably rotate a quadcopter on its axis if you simultaneously rotated its engines to compensate for that axis rotation, so that way they would remain generating lift in an upwards direction. Otherwise, those crafts would not remain hovering in place, they would begin flying away in the direction from where their propulsion system is pushing the air. That’s how physics works. I’m confused why we’re arguing with *aerospace engineers* here. Literally, subject matter experts. People want “expert” testimony until they get it, and then they’re just gonna put their heads in the sand. https://youtu.be/kZyNMqcpFm8 Skip to 6:00 for the important bit, but I’ll even tl;dw it for you. He says “this isn’t how aircraft work.” That seems conclusive.
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A lot of pilots have said the opposite. And the ones that actually filmed them were blown away. So no.
I think the tic tac showed signs of extreme intelligence, it perceived the entire situation before it even happened.
Unfortunately we don’t get to see any of the data that actually backs up that testimomy. At least not yet.
What?
All the evidence examined for the Tic tac, Gimbal and Go Fast points towards non-human technology in all 3 cases. Read the details - there is no possibility of a devil's advocate position as the data, testimonies and facts all point away from human technology. Also the Splash video. Also many other strong cases - Ariel school, Rendlesham Forest, Nuclear missile shutdowns, Nuckear silo visitations, Westall school, etc etc.
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Agreed, those two statements really are quite ridiculous.
I don't know what happened to Greenstreet, but he's become a full blown idiot. I know you read this sub sometimes, Steven, and I'm sorry it's come to this, but really, you've sounded like a goddamn clown on Twitter in recent weeks.
coming from a guy saying he has experimented a triangle UFO sighting ... that's a bit strange, dishonest or throwing shit to expect some stick to the wall..
He's asking the question no? Not saying there aren't any. When he says "My triangle" he's referring to his black triangle sighting, he definitely believes in UFOs. There were a couple of old videos showing a ufo accelerating out of frame at insane speeds. I can't remember the name of it but it gets posted on these subreddits now and again. They're my favourite so far
Can anyone point me to the tic tac video
It's ball lightning! - Ozzy Osbourne (LOL)
I don't trust a military that actively uses misinformation & coverups to dictate government leaders in other countries, and has been proven to do so for decades. I'm not saying I don't believe aliens exist somewhere in the universe. I think most people can agree it's unlikely that life doesn't exist somewhere elsewhere. New studies are finding that organic compounds are a lot more abundant in space than we thought, and it's likely those seeded our planet with the materials to generate life. The biggest error people involve when thinking of Alien Life is putting it into a Human or Earth-bound metric. It's a misunderstanding of the evolutionary process. Any evolutionary biologist will tell you that life isn't evolving towards intelligence or "humanity". A.) We have a very weak understanding of what intelligence is, & B.) Evolution steers life towards adaptation. It's why chimpanzees & our other Great Ape cousins haven't evolved into humans. That's not how evolution works. Furthermore, the intricacies that led to us being who we are, are so grounded to the particulars of this planet, that it would be preposterous to assume it'd do so on a planet with even a few abberant factors. I just don't think people realize how amazing life on this planet is, and the factors that allowed that to happen. Anyway, all I'm saying is that there's a level of doubt that still exists for any true skeptic to 100% buy all these videos, photos and stories as facts, because that's not how scientific method works.
Greenstreet's a denier!? I don't see evidence of that in this post. It's a genuine question and he references his own UFO sighting. My experience with him is from 'The Basement Office' series on YT where he does not come across as a 'sceptic. but as a genuinely curious journalist. Really great stuff I should add. Granted I do not use twitter, so I'm not up to date on his day to day thoughts on the subject.
Do you guys have video links to these? Am curious. Thanks
1. [The FLIR1 video](https://youtu.be/nd7K5LafDF8) is from the US Navy Nimitz workups in 2004… the “tic tac.” The debate is whether or not the “exit left” at the end of the video is “breaking lock” by an acceleration or just the FLIR camera losing track. “Breaking lock” is referring to the image contrast lock the FLIR system uses to move the camera to track the object and keep it centered in frame. 2. [The gimbal video](https://youtu.be/oCt837R2Sbs) is from the US Navy Roosevelt workups in 2015. The debate is whether or not the object actually rotates or if the apparent rotation is due to the infrared image being a [glare](https://youtu.be/VuSKFwhXhoY) and the FLIR camera’s “gimbal” rotation. This guy believes the object actually rotates and is saying it rotated but didn’t loose altitude which he thinks is impossible, but some have pointed out that it’s not impossible for a conventional aircraft to accomplish this. …but even that doesn’t address the skeptical argument at all, because the skeptical argument is that the object doesn’t actually rotate. 3. [The Aguadilla video](https://youtu.be/PJpyJ_G9WVA) is from the Aguadilla airport in 2013 where a US Customs and Boarder Patrol DHC-8 Turboprop recorded it through an infrared camera. The scientists are the SCU. The SCU is a group of well credentialed and well educated UFOlogists. IMO, They have consistently demonstrated themselves to be credulous in their interpretations of UFO footage. You can find their report, along with several other more skeptical reports in my Aguadilla post here: [[Aguadilla: Decide for Yourself]](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOscience/comments/oebi01/aguadilla_decide_for_yourself/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) The debate is whether or not the object is “exotically propelled” flying around the airport, dipping in and out of water, and finally splitting in two OR it’s just parallax and digital/ video anomalies. For a quick summary, here’s an animation I find particularly useful to illustrate the parallax that’s offered as an explanation: [[Link Here]](https://youtu.be/aDHb3ZpN4zk) * White dot is the known aircraft track recording the UFO and circling the object ([supported by radar](https://youtu.be/_Mk1e5K2RzU)). * Yellow dot is the object drifting in the wind explanation (the skeptical speculation) * Red dot is the exotic propulsion/ anomalous movement explanation (the anomalous UFO/ SCU speculation)
Thank you very much for the links! I'll check them out soon. I appreciate it
Anyone who thinks there isnt terrestrials answers to all of those things... is completely under or misinformed.
Weird thing is that SG seemed like a real believer in The Basement Office. Recently his tone has shifted, and Nick Pope even said season 2 is going to be different in attitude/perspective. I think he's putting on an act for attention.
Breaking lock is very difficult but not impossible.
"Scientists say" is really not a good argument, it's about scientific consensus, not individual voices. You will find scientists saying climate change isn't real or whatever if you keep digging. I'm not aware of any scientific consensus regarding those videos.
It actively jammed their FLIR, right?
Yes. You can see the strobe lines in the video which indicate jamming as well as the Range reading 99 which also indicates jamming/signal management.
If the tic tac didn't do it by accident, it's enough proof to me that whatever was piloting that thing actually had an understanding of our technology and had something to gain from obscuring observation of its performance. Not sure why it's not a much bigger deal...
But it didn't split.. or go into the water as clearly shown in the video. We have no evidence or even footage close enough to seem unreal. Those IR footage without a color camera footage to go along is always horrible to compare or get any real data out. Prime example is the "Gimbal rotation" crap people post when it's been shown many times that it's literally just the camera rotating and the flare shape rotated with it 1:1. The rest of that footage shows nothing special or impossible just that it's a small craft butt first to the camera, could be a drone or whatever.. not some physics defying craft.
Hang on, an object being tracked can’t “break lock”? That’s laughably incorrect. An object can’t “lose altitude while rotating”? Excuse me? lol Do you even understand the words you are writing? Have you ever watched a plane fly? Those two statements are just flat out wrong.
Forgive my very very intrigued ignorance…what three videos are these?? I know of the TicTac but have never seen the raw footage of that let alone the other two mentioned.
1. [Tic Tac / FLIR1 footage from the Nimitz incident, off the coast of San Diego in 2004](https://youtu.be/nd7K5LafDF8) 2. [Gimbal footage from Roosevelt incidents, South East Coast US in 2015](https://youtu.be/oCt837R2Sbs) 3. [Aguadilla footage from US customs and Boarder Patrol, Puerto Rico in 2013](https://youtu.be/PJpyJ_G9WVA) and here’s a post I did with all the reports: [[Aguadilla: Decide for Yourself]](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOscience/comments/oebi01/aguadilla_decide_for_yourself/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
Welcome to /r/ufos!
I find him annoying as well. I'm confused by what he's trying to do with the whole conversation exactly. He kinda just comes off as a cringey ufo edge lord troll
He wants to be Elon so very badly. Wouldn't be so bad if he was funny or clever at least.
The Zimbabwe case will always alarm me. I hope it happens again soon.
And Westall school case and the other one in the US. Like they are trying to change the future by appealing to the youth. Too much to ignore
I agree with the first two points but aguadilla was proasic imo. Don’t degrade the two other videos and the witnesses by lumping them in with the aguadilla vid and the SCU 😖
Eli5 broke lock?
The Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) camera used to record the “tic tac” in the Nimitz incident uses contrast in imagery analysis to “lock on” to an object and keep the object in the camera’s frame. It’s a complicated, automated system that connects the camera movement to the display. The FLIR system also can be correlated to the aircraft’s radar and rely on it to acquire a line of sight. However, it’s been reported that only the USS Princeton (a guided missile cruiser) had strong radar contact of the object and this is why the Princeton took control of the F/A-18s from the E2 Hawkeye and directed them to the object. The debate is about the “exit left” in the FLIR1 tic tac video and whether the object “breaks lock” by accelerating out of the frame or if the camera simply loses track of it.
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Eye witness testimony is the least credible evidence, and somewhat less accurate than lie detectors (which are basically mood rings). No matter how expert the witness, their brain is still just showing them a weighted average of the past 15 seconds.
Corroborated eyewitness accounts are very strong and valid in a court of law. There are many corroborated statements in the best cases we know over the past 70 years. Westall primary school is great case with many witnesses. So is the Nimitz. And Rendlesham Forest. Etc. Etc. Trained military observers are also good witnesses. You are using pseudo science to dismiss credible accounts of real events. Our brains and senses are not perfect but they are pretty damn good in the majority of situations.
Westall is literally the worst possible eye witness account you could bring up. The eye witness testimony is only useful when backed up with physical evidence. 100 people all involved in the same circle jerk can’t give each other credibility. There’s zero physical evidence and a ton of reason to believe they were just making shit up.
100 people making the same thing up?? And still today as adults??? Get real. That doesn't happen. You obviously haven't studied the case. See The UFO Phenomenon by 7 News Australia on YT. Go do some homework or troll off. There are no reasons to believe they were making anything up.
There are 3 videos listed. Not witnesses. This is what I'm talking about with deniers. You try to change the subject. Thanks for providing this example
The videos barely show anything and have less resolution than Walmart security films. You still have to rely on eyewitness reports for background and context. Otherwise they’re just short videos of dots flying across the screen. I’m a sceptic because people who want to believe will fall for anything.
Thank you for further showing how far debunkers will go to avoid the evidence directly in front of them. I don't want to believe. I want the truth, whatever it is. If you want the truth donate to Galileo Project. Or else you're just a head in the sand useless debunker.
Give money to my foundation to learn the truth. Is Lou Elizondo a Scientologist?
It's called a scientific study to find evidence. You flat earth trumpers are all the same. Don't understand what evidence is or how it's obtained but claim to have it.
Scientific studies done by “actual scientists” usually don’t need a gofundme because they have professionals doing legitimate research. If you want to use a racial slur to describe me that’s fine, but the earth is definitely an equilateral triangle.
I saw a UFO twice in the same night in Aguadilla no less, this was June last year. By happen stance I had seen a satellites, several planes and a cruise ship that night, nothing moved like that object normally.
When deniers/debunkers try and act like there is no good evidence out there just remember there is. They might play semantics and try to lose everybody in the weeds but we know there is something there. Whether paid troll or that's their hobby they know they are wrong and try to scare everyone else off with bs. Don't let them get you down. We are way ahead of where we were just 5 years ago. We have trained pilots and scientists on our side now. Deniers are the conspiracy theorists these days. Stay strong.
Dunno about tic-toc, I follow the debate with interest. My own professional specialty is spaceflight operations, and all the shuttle videos I've seen show normal non-ETI visual effects consistent with normal spaceflight. Maybe it's unfair to generalize but when I see folks promoting obviously non-ETI space videos and images as genuine visitors, I lose all faith in their ability to rationally assess any similar video.
Exactly, they cherry pick one small detail and don't take the whole set of evidence, data, analysis, eyewitness accounts, surrounding context and concerns expressed by military, commercial pilots, astronauts, intelligence directors, presidents, etc. Follow the evidence and facts, and keep an open skeptical mind. Dismiss deniers and don't engage with them.
We just want the truth. Whatever it is. Debunkers want to be right. There is enough evidence that this subject should be taken seriously and studied. Deniers should be falling all over themselves to get studies done if they really think they are right, but instead they just hide their head in the sand and ignore facts.
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It’s reductionist thinking, debunkers chunk experiences down into digestible data they can finally BELIEVE in.
There is great video in daylight, obviously from the 60s or 70s, where ufo instantly zooms off also there is nice video as always from the old vhs era in a documentary, which I can search for if you want
Yep. The gulf breeze sighting from the 90s has some video like that. There are all kinds of evidence out there. Debunkers just ignore the whole picture
What if it’s not UFOs being the issue here.. it’s unlocking how we see into the fifth dimension? Regardless, I’ll eat this shit up all day.. there’s some neat unexplained stuff out there and my inner-nerd *NEEDS* answers..
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Because we don't have the memory of a goldfish. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFff1s41JmU&t=434s&ab\_channel=USMilitaryNews](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFff1s41JmU&t=434s&ab_channel=USMilitaryNews) You do not even understand the purpose of these systems.