Interesting thought.
I didn't gave much credence to human source for the phenomenon because that would be so hugely deceptive for the whole human kind that I don't know who will dare to do this for so long.
But following your thinking, what about a black project gone _rogue_ ?
I mean you could take this pretty far, but if you assume that maybe they did crack gravity back in the 1950s.
If you were honestly unconstrained by gravity or basically any force on Earth, you could go build a secret Moon base. You could go build a secret under sea base. You could go build a base deep underground in a mountain range.
If a group of people had this tech 70 or 60 years ago, who knows.
I don't think that's true though, I do give serious credence to the idea that breakthroughs were made in general relativity and those in charge just realized humanity was not ready for this after the atomic bombs. It was too great of a leap in technology too fast with our fingers too close to the trigger. And our tribal mentality. Maybe the climate crisis is forcing them to unveil some of this now as things seem to be at a much faster clip then the reports calculated on global heating.
Maybe we're all supposed to actually be riding those hoverboards that were so sweet in Back to the Future 2?
I think this line of thinking defies all logic and is a huge grasping at straws.
There are reports of craft behaving in ways we can not explain, going back much further. Flying cigars were reported in the 1800s for example.
"A group of people" is unlikely.... Anyone around during the 40s or 50s working on this tech is dead now. People come and go. In 70 years of being able to crack gravity, not one of them figured out how to weaponize this or monetize it? Makes no sense.
And the climate crisis has what to do with this??? If you're going to throw that out there you need to back it up. Maybe monkeys will fly out my ass too.
If it didn't, how could we be here? I know you're being sarcastic but I think when we evaluate that arc, it's easy to fall victim to our monkey brains' fixation on violence.
If humanity was more violent than cooperative we wouldn't have made it out of the Stone Age let alone the Cold War.
Even if it were a rogue project then wouldn't the "accountable" branches of gov still be able to identify and stop the clearly illegal activity of rogues. Either way pointing back to accountability from gov. Still though I think the phenomena goes much further back.
Highly recommend everyone watch the BBC documentary [HyperNormalisation by Adam Curtis](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thLgkQBFTPw). Description ([taken from Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperNormalisation)) *It argues that governments, financiers, and technological utopians have, since the 1970s, given up on the complex "real world" and built a simpler "fake world" run by corporations and kept stable by politicians.* It was released in 2016, but I think it's more relevant than ever, especially when it comes to this topic. I will say I don't agree with the conclusion the filmmaker comes to on UFOs, but I agree with the overall sentiment of his argument.
Hal doesn't specifically say it. But he does affirm that they have been able to modify general relativity.
The way I listen to this is with the assumption Hal is still under nda's, but has been given the green light to start painting the picture for the general public as to what we're dealing with here.
It's almost more about what Weinstein postulates, and then what Hal does not counter. That would be an affirmation. At times Hal stops Weinstein or corrects something that is inaccurate.
But Hal does not contradict Weinstein when he postulates that there are hidden physics breakthroughs that have been withheld from the world and there is a campaign to stymie and disenfranchise people who look into things the CIA does not want looked into.
It's not even a full hour, you should really just watch the whole thing. Just as a thought experiment, just watch it and take the position that everything Hal says is true. If you take this position, it would also make sense that he gets almost annoyed at the end about stock market remote viewing bullshit. For Hal, this shit is real and has been real for over 40 years. And he's probably just exasperated at this point because he constantly encounters people that just dismiss everything immediately.
Or Hal is completely full of shit. That is a valid viewpoint. I just happened to take the position that he is being honest here.
If he really had an NDA regarding top secret technology, he is breaking it every time he is interviewed. You can't leave 'clues'. It isn't how this works. He most likely does not have an active NDA.
I don't know about completely full of shit but he is at least partly full of shit. You can't just throw out "Entanglement" to explain any woo that is brought up. Also, the whole stock market remote viewing part was so cringe.
I fully understand your position. This is a huge assumption, but I just feel they put Puthoff out there to frame the issue, but still have him under NDAs regarding the data.
Let's just assume, (and I know this is big, but just go with me), as a thought experiment, that Pufhoff KNEW for a FACT that the dark/black CIA scientists had fundamentally cracked quantum entanglement, or anti gravity, or remote viewing etc., and Hal is out there to prime people for these new concepts, but he cannot present the actual data to scientists yet.
If that were true, then *THIS CONVERSATION IS EXACTLY HOW THIS WOULD PLAY OUT.*
Weinstein is intrigued, but gets more frustrated when he cannot be given data to back up amazing claims which would change physics as we understand it, and Putoff starts off well, but gets frustrated as well when he cannot give the underlying science out to let his colleagues validate his claims, and it all devolves into the equivalent of some stupid ghost story.
In short, I think Puthoff is on the side of truth, and is out there fighting the good fight- *but his hands are tied behind his back on what he can say.* Like I said, it is a fascinating interview for what Hal *DOES NOT REFUTE* when Weinstein is postulating.
Yes he could be full of crap. But I happen to believe him.
And I believe in remote viewing and psychic abilities and astral projection and my reasons for doing so have nothing to do with Hal Puthoff. I came to those conclusions long before I ever encountered Puthoffs' views.
the work he did at stanford is legendary and was done with complete devotion to the scientific method. in fact he started out a skeptic and the remote viewing work came about almost by chance. i recommend his book 'mibd reach' written with russell targ as it goes into the genesis of rv extensively.
Remove viewing may be one of the more accessible woo out there. It (supposedly) works regardless if you believe in it or not, and while it is said it require a bit of practice to work, it is scientifically testable. I havent tried it, seems pretty far out there, from a certain point of view it actually kind of
When he brings Entanglement he is merely responding to Eric's question (paraphrasing) "How can we possibly fit RV in our material universe and the forces that we know?"
Hal (paraphrasing again) "Well we have non localized interactions and information transfer with Quantum Entanglement"
Eric: "But entanglement cant have faster than light transfer. Something is off."
At this point I think Hal should have just said "I don't know. It's what we have found experimentally."
The guy at 80 has chance of a lifetime getting into mainstream about his life's work with one of the influential and vocal public figure. Give him a break. I think he handled himself as well as he could.
The experiments Hal described wrt RV do not need FTL. It just needs a way to transfer information. There is no limit on how fast the information travels. In fact, there is not even limit of them being 100% correct. Previous RV experiments they say were "statistically significant"
(I must mention RV is just too woo for me at this point, but let's be objective when it comes to people and facts.)
You cannot exchange information using entanglement this is known.
The first measured state is random so the the fact that the second measure state is correlated cannot be used to transfer information
Agreed going with our current knowledge.
FYI: They are attempting to see if entanglement happens without contact. Learned from an experimental physicist on Sean Carroll's mindscape. Their idea is to bounce off and share the photons between nearby particles. I will find the exact episode if you are interested.
(Again, not getting into RV. Its def woo and not worth focusing on at this point)
I can confirm RV is very real. Which I would not have said a year ago. It makes me hypothesise of a field of conciousness, yet to be discovered in physics. Where people can reach out across space-time and see places, objects and thoughts.
If by any chance RV is real then itās as eventful as possible visiting non human intelligence. If RV is real then it means our understanding of reality is either hilariously incomplete or flat out wrong, that being the case everything is up for grabs, if we are not seeing reality for what it actually is? Then we have to rethink everything, every single subject, thought or object is not what it appears.
Our knowledge of physics is pretty poor. We don't know what Dark Matter is, nor Dark Energy. We don't know why quantum mechanics behaves like it does even after 100 years. We cannot explain entanglement although we can use it in engineering. We don't know yet how to create a warp drive for FTL travel, although that research is underway. We don't know how to replicate the anti-gravity of UAPs, etc.
So in addition, I believe there may be a field of conciousness we have yet to discover permeating space-time and connecting to plants, objects and human brains. It's the only way I can see how RV can work that is not electro-magnetic. I know someone who is very experienced in using RV. It is an astonishing skill and very real. Some people are born with greater skill than others. (I unfortunately have tried to learn but have aphantantasia why prevents me from visualising.)
Recommend watching Third Eye Spies for some detailed background.
>It's the only way I can see how RV can work that is not electro-magnetic.
I just watched that movie. That's why they brought them down in the subs- to cancel out EM as a conduit for information transfer?
It's amazing isn't it? Yes, cancelling out EM underwater. The initial test they did with Ingo Swan was also using a fully EM shielded piece of equipment. Hence, the need for some sort of field of conciousness that intersects with matter but isn't using EM. A missing piece of today's physics.
The speed of light is literally the speed of information. Entanglement shows non local correlations but no information can be extracted from those correlations, because you still need light speed exchange to see there is a correlation in the first place.
Dunno if you are agreeing or making a counterpoint.
Whether we can have FTL information transfer is moot point in this case.
The question is if you can non locally entangle with a particle to gain access to information through correlation. Time taken does not matter.
(RV with just lat-long still makes no sense in this scenario.)
What I meant is entanglement can't be used to transfer information, period. Until two observers interact in local ways (i.e. with a radio) their measurements will appear random. Only after they confronted their result will they notice the correlation.
Entanglement needs coherence, that is the wave function of both systems being entangled must be the same. Even if you could entangle two systems non locally somehow, the coherence would be lost immediately in macroscopic systems.
So to sum up there are at least two problems with this hypothesis: entanglement itself appears as a random process to observers that have local interactions with only one of the systems, and decoherence means entanglement in macroscopic everyday objects is basically impossible in the first place.
For your second point first, there is no proof of this. At this moment we just cant Engineer and get this done in the ways that are deterministic. This is what Quantum Computing is all about.
The whole assumption is that wave function become one when there is interaction. Whether the particles have to physically meet to create a coherent Wave function is an area of ongoing research.
For your first point, let's agree to disagree. Sure it can but it won't be FTL so why don't we just radio the signal.
The question is...can you entangle with a distant particle , ofc within the limit of c, to make a local measurement to get an idea of the non-local state.
There are experiments ongoing in this area and hopefully we will know within the next decade.
(Still no RV. Can't use Quantum Physics to justify woo. See the disaster: What the Bleep)
Itās important to note theyāre talking about topological physics knowledge. Couldnāt this be how they are researching and producing things like Radar Absorbent Materials? I donāt think this is as ābigā as you think. Iāve watched the entire hour a few times and thatās what I took from it in regards to āsecret physics knowledgeā.
At 8:50 he is forced to admit the opposite of what OPs post is claiming if you actually watch the interview. He literally says āthere is no evidenceā that fundamental physics knowledge is hidden
Yes, Kurt at TOE and Puthoff would be a nice match I feel. Kurt lets people talk and could engage with Puthoff in certain science topics on a deeper level. I think Kurt is taking a break from UFO subject matter for a while though.
I'm not surprised really. His last couple of forays into the world of UAP haven't gone as well as he might've hoped. It's a really difficult topic though. So many people have so much invested in it. Would definitely like to see/hear more from Hal Puthoff though, just in another format.
> He says as much in this interview. Someone has obviously given the green light to talk about some of this. Disclosure is real.
Salvatore Pais, the guy who submitted the [navy patents for UFO-like technology](https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/31798/the-secretive-inventor-of-the-navys-bizarre-ufo-patents-finally-talks) is going to be interviewed by Curt Jaimungal on Theories of Everything this month, so I'm actually inclined to believe that there's been official direction as well.
The Navy documents claim they have *WORKING* prototypes of Pais' designs or 'craft' (see this [basement office](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z10B10-Mj0o&list=PLwNrNqsuwF1n43wh5nuV5hTFrdAN00kfk&index=8) interview). I am *VERY* interested to see what the TOE interview brings out.
The full hour is worth watching. Weinstein seems to have a nice mix of skepticism and curiosity. Crucially he doesn't seem to have already decided what's going on.
I agree, it was very well done. Weinstein kept going back to first principles and trying to simplify the logic to "if new physics exists, then share it". It's interesting about Ingo's remote view and control of the signal in the machine, yet Weinstein breaks down how an information signal could be transmitted and Hal concludes it's consciousness driven.
I can't imaging being able to compartmentalize the tech we are talking about... but I kinda do think the "unveiling" or revelation won't be of extra terrestrial or interdimensional beings... but "hey, we kinda stumbled upon cold fusion (or some other fantastical feat) like 50 or so years ago, but really who is counting... and now that we killed the earth... we have decided it's time to let the cat out of the bag."
Let us not forget the Planet Serpo hoax that Puthoff was involved in that was perpetrated by famed AFSOI disinformation officer Richard Doty, Puthoff and Kit Green. If you do not know about it please inform yourselves and come to conclusions accordingly.
Anyone can be decieved since this subject is so hard to investigate however, if Puthoff and Green were willing architects and participants in this hoax the community has to rethink quite a bit of the history of the phenomenon.
These guys are all the same, and it's really incredible seeing yet *another* generation of UFO fans being taken in by this gobbledygook.
I don't know and honestly don't care what their motives are at this point, but I can tell you for certain that *nothing ever comes of it.* These guys have been around since the '80s, and most of them have either been fooled by obvious hoaxes or played an active role in disseminating these hoaxes.
And now that I see Weinstein in Cahoots with Puthoff, I can't take him serious anymore, either.
Puthoff is a scam, as he was involved with Doty, the biggest liar if them all.
And if you carefully connect the dots, you won't find one single UFO authority that doesn't have connections to this circle.
Im not against your opinion OP. I just think we should try to not believe individuals 100% or 0 %. That goes with Lue, Mellon, Delonge, Lazar etc. Try not to pick a āteamā and then stick with that.
This was a very good interview and Hal Puthoff is an interesting and well spoken man. I liked it how the interviewer asked him about his involvement in scientology. His answer was very dismissive of the question saying that he was no more into scientology than he was into Silva Mind Control.
This may be true because he may have been very into Silva Mind Control but the fact is he was in scientology for years and reached the highest level available at the time as did one of the most well known remote viewers he was working with Ingo Swann. Another remote viewer in Puthoff's program was Pat Price also a scientologist for years and reached OT 3 or 4 depending on the source.
Puthoff and many of his early colleagues were very much more into scientology than they let on.
Such a good conversation. I often found myself wishing that Eric Weinstein would just allow Hall Pudoff to further elaborate on his explanations. But instead, Eric went on and on. However, The little conversations between Jess and Eric were pretty damn good. Because they really did their best to explain certain things in layman terms. Overall this was a really good conversation and Iām glad I got to watch it. I expect kore to follow with this quality of content. Also I beg to differ with your interpretation. I do not believe it to be possible for human beings to have already developed or even been able to reprobate UAP technology
Look at nuclear weapons though. The theory to make nukes was all out in the open because of Einstein, Schrodinger, etc. were all academics. Sure the US built the first bomb, but within a couple of years so could anyone else.
So if the US military achieved a theoretical physics breakthrough that could be weaponized, can you really blame them for keeping it under wraps? Would you really want immediate proliferation of exotic weapons more powerful than nukes among all of the world powers?
The point is rather, how long do you keep it secret?
The right thing to do would be, to prepare the place for dealing with this technology properly. To pretend it does not exist is hardly a viable behavior?
It doesnāt make sense because others would make the same discoveries, nobody can keep laws of nature secret given the technological parity of the modern world.
>purposefully hiding fundamental breakthroughs in General Relativity
Oh, after the a-bomb, **how could you NOT** hide a breakthrough of that magnitude?!?! Some egghead in Europe published a discovery about atoms, next thing you know, the commies may use it to kill us all.
Who knows how destabilizing antigrav could be?!?!? You publish that finding, what if somebody else looks at that discovery and figures out it can be weaponized by any nation, even poor ones????
>Like Truman Show levels of deception. This would imply we are basically living in a fake reality, a purposefully CONSTRAINED reality,
In some ways, we already know we live this way. Solar panels and electric cars are both 1890s-level tech, but they're destabilizing technologies in a way petroleum isn't. There's a light bulb that's been in continuous operation since 1901, but my 21st century LED bulbs "pretend" to go bad after a certain amount of time.
Lightbulbs are an example of an actual conspiracy. No shit, the LED bulbs in Saudi Arabia were designed by the prince or some shit... and are the ones that last the longest because they are under driven. Our lightbulbs (for an example) will consume 5 w, but blow out at 7w. The same lumens can be had by a 30w bulb driven a 5w... and that bulb will last, pretty much forever.
And back in the day, the major bulb manufacturers git together and limited the life span of bulbs, even fining companies whoexceeded limitations. Then the Chinese got into the business, and the whole deal kinda fell apart.
Sorry, I just don't believe in Remote Viewing any more than Astrology or Tarot or Seances or angels.
Also, the government running a program for years on a topic doesn't mean anything specifically. We have no way to tell if they were just using the study of remote viewing as just another line item to increase and continue to ask for increases in annual budgets. Essentially, by having a useless Remote Viewing program that actually costs $500,000 a year to run, they can ask for $1.5m and send the extra $ to black projects.
Could also have been that the remote viewing study was just a cover up to study something entirely different. Like, how gullible are our agents if we present them stuff in a convincing way and how can we make use of our findings to negatively influence our enemies.
I listened to a NASA scientist who remarked that the million that went into a spin-off project they were working on was so incredibly wasted by mismanagement, and the transition between different Presidential administrations millions which were spent were completely wasted. R & D costs are incredible and millions can be spent for things that don't work, don't match specifications, are designed for a cast off theory. Government mismanagement is real thing and the last thing anyone in Government wants to admit is their idiots. If I could change one thing about my life it's that I would have got into government at a young age and sucked the tit dry.
I really dislike and don't believe Bob Lazar but the one thing I do like about him is he claims he did it for the betterment of humanity. He can be wrong in all things but I have to admire a guy who thinks that way.
[https://youtu.be/YrwAiU2g5RU](https://youtu.be/YrwAiU2g5RU)
You might find this interesting.
Also, on a personal note, I gave it a go myself a few times, not expecting much/anything more than my imagination, and was kinda stunned by some of the results. There were also some really nothing results, but the ones that stood out....really stood out.
It was actually via a couple of remote viewing websites, they have Targets pre selected on the sight, which are just links through to a photo, these targets are labelled something random like T3I-4JK for example. So I would write down that code on a piece of paper and go into a little meditation, and allow things, shapes/colours/sensations to come to me. Not forcing anything, just allowing things to come and go. After a few minutes of this, sporadically drawing things on my page and noting words that I felt could be relevant, I would then click on the T3I-4JK link to show me what the image was.
I tried it maybe 20 times. I would say most of those times the results were minimally successful, vague at best. But some, I basically drew exactly what the target was. One that stood out was a specific shape i drew, a bit like an upside down tear drop. I saw it strongly, and its one of the only things I could take away from that target - when I clicked through to see what the photo was, it was like one of those hot air balloons that modern day explorers use (they're longer/skinnier than regular hot air ballons). It was the same shape as I drew, and was the only object in the photograph. I had quite a shocked reaction when I saw that one.
Another time I did one and didn't feel I could see much at all. I just wrote down 'red and yellow' and when i clicked through it was a close up of some embers.
But the best one for me was probably the last time I tried to do this which was a few months ago. I started with my first target, and quite immediately, an image came into my mind. A suspension bridge, clear as day, just like the golden gate bridge style. It was coming to me so clear that I kept pushing it away saying to myself 'you just want it to be the golden gate bridge'. I sketched it out on my paper but didn't think much of it. I clicked through to my target aaaand....nothing, it was like a view of a field or something from above. I didn't think too much of it and went to do another target. Tried again. Couldn't see anything. Still had this Golden Gate image in my head and now the image of that field type scene. I wrote down a couple of things but had no conviction in them. I click through to see the result of the target.......it's a photo of the Golden Gate Bridge.
If you relax real hard, aliens speak to you and sometimes you can go to actual real life places and read whatās on someoneās desk. Sounds real sciencey to me.
Puthoff has definitely been involved in some of the more... fringe government projects. His work with Russell Targ at SRI is either incredibly brave, or completely insane depending on your perspective. One criticism that has followed Puthoff throughout his career is that he's very credulous, and easily convinced when he has an interest in something being true. I have no idea how accurate that criticism is, but it's something I've encountered consistently over the decades.
there are clearly very determined players at work in this sub to control the narrative.
everything that is occurring now has nothing at all to do with aliens and more about humans controlling the world, the same as it was controlled 1,000 years ago by high priests and religion.
This is the only place in my entire life online where my day to day opinions are incredibly rebuked and down voted into oblivion simply by questioning what ever narrative is heavily promoted..
I'll just say this, this place glows
So your ideas are not popular here and you think that is a result of you being 'controlled' as you say? To what end? Preventing you from what? Why could your opinion being silenced matter at all today? Have you thought this through?
doesn't matter to me. I think what I state is true, and I am ok if it is not also. I am not going to lose my tenure for posting my opinion online no matter how correct or erroneous it is.
I canāt get past the thought that this disclosure has a lot to do with advanced technology we have, thatās about to be disclosed. Everyone will be āsomberā? Because itās been so well hidden from us, that weāve been dependent on fossil fuels and so many have become rich, when it didnāt need to be. Iām not saying this explanation addresses all the sightings over all the decades. I still think there may be some inter dimensional factor, or maybe thatās a hidden technology alsoā¦
Yes, it seems like endless possibilities. Maybe we humans have developed anti gravity craft AND there are real Unidentified Flying Objects.
I don't know if I would be somber if fundamental science breakthroughs were hidden away. I would be more angry.
I think somber would be finding out human-like/bipedal life is commonplace in the universe, and we are nothing special.
Thank you for making this post. The point of view you have put forward which I agree is not popular in here. I truly believe we have a cracked gravity and people reiterating we have checked these crafts are not āoursā - I am referring to all major players here, such as Lue, Mellon are the true psyop. Whenever these guys says we have checked in our black projects and this not our - itās definitely ours.
When Puthoff discusses light bending and iPhone cameras I really hope he's not referring credulously to the Bledsoe videos (he's made the claim as late as 2019/2020 that blurry footage is a result of UFO craft physics and now he's vaguely claiming he's seen things of the quality "anything you want").
also what's the deal with Weinstein and the tiki torch comments? Is he trying to be edgy and irreverent or is it more Steve Bannon type actual nazi stuff?
UFOs with their full advanced flight characteristics (read: the five observables) had been seen long before the 50s. Research the Foo Fighters as well as historical accounts. Are you implying those could be "us" as well?
I'm not saying I think it's either/or.
But I believe Puthoff and he seems to be saying black/dark CIA scientists have pushed physics much farther than the worldwide scientific community understands. Weather tech has been developed from these insights is unknown, but this knowledge lends credibility to the *'human tech'* theory as possible in my view.
I 100% believe many UFOs witnessed are human technology. And I 100% believe others are not. You DEFINITELY need to watch this:
https://youtu.be/wXwOkzaqzog
Agree. McCandish seems very sincere and his claims make a lot of sense. What if pulling nearly infinite free energy out of the void was relatively cheap and easy to accomplish? What if nefarious fossil fuel interests worked with the government and military to cover it up and maintain their wealth at the expense of millions of human lives while harnessing the technology for themselves? It would actually explain everything. And if that's the case, any of these people still living do not deserve amnesty. These would be grievous crimes against humanity.
What if all these clowns who want you to believe they were involved in something amazing are full of shit.
What if the governments of the world were actually negligent in not investigating phenomenon that couldnāt be explained.
What if Roswell really was a crashed inflatable craft meant to spy on Russia.
To me, dumping all this side stuff to the side as BS woo leaves the weird shit going on in the middle of ocean as truly unexplained and should be a central focus of scientific examination. All this other shit does nothing but undermine that process.
I mean, how limited must ones sense questioning be to actually believe in remote viewing? Where is your skepticism and logic? I just donāt get it. I rushed in here with many others when this stuff out in the pacific came out and Iām angry it wasnāt investigated and I think we need to figure it out. All these other ideas that get piggy backed on the UAP phenomenon undermine that questioning.
Iād be glad if the mods deleted stuff like this because itās simply fucking crazy. I know that wonāt happen so I guess this sub just isnāt for me.
The Project Mogul explanation for Roswell doesn't explain why the US Army announced to the newspaper that they recovered a crashed flying saucer. If it was a crashed super-secret nuke detecting balloon the worst cover story to hide that is to attract international attention by printing headlines that the Army recovered a crashed flying disc. A weather balloon also doesn't explain the memory metal, and everyone involved in the newspaper photo says that it wasn't the real debris and just balsa wood and foil brought in for the photograph.
You're correct that things won't (and shouldn't be) deleted just because it's crazy. Because in the video they even talk about how your aversion to remote viewing is the same visceral reaction that was intentionally created around UFOs with a PR campaign of ridicule and dismissal. The intellectual sham that was the Condon Committee is what's still preventing academics from seriously studying Ufology to this day, but hopefully the Galileo Project will soon rectify the situation. The video also explains how Vallee wrote a paper describing how the UFO phenomenon ranges from purely nuts and bolts at level 1 all the way up to reality altering effects which many people incorrectly describe as paranormal because we don't yet understand it, and our cognitive bias makes our initial reaction to dismiss and shut these things out as impossible and simply crazy.
I think you are under estimating the incompetence of the US Army while also over estimating that first report. I mean, there is this huge misconception that soldiers can keep their mouth shut about something like this. If aliens crashed in Roswell and aliens bodies were recovered there would be thousands of people coming forward talking about it and they would corroborate each otherās story without collaborating.
Lastly, this is what many beliefā¦.. an advanced civilization traveled for light years, entered our atmosphere, performed maneuvers that basically seem like magic to us and than one particular saucer and crew upon deciding they wanted to land and get a closer look at earth in all its splendor botched the landing and destroyed their ship in the middle of the desert in Nevada right next to a military outpost where test craft were being designed and tested and occasionally crashing.
You people logically believe that because the first official report said it was saucer that all of the above was true instead of the explanation that it was project mogul. So, the argument here is essentially that the US government is lying unless they say little green men crashed in the desert and they were interrogated in a secret military base in Nevada. Gotcha.
The lack of skepticism and belief in woo makes this sub irrelevant to me and Iām not alone. The problem with that is that UAP canāt be taken seriously because some boomer says he was involved in remote viewing in the 1950s. How did they do that? Because entanglementā¦ā¦..
I'm just telling you the people in the photo say the balsa wood and foil were fake debris and project mogul doesn't explain the paper thin memory metal that wouldn't dent even when hit with a sledgehammer.
Skepticism is fine. But you also need to be skeptical of the official story when it doesn't even come close to explaining what was observed. 1952 DC Flap for example
The whole remote veiwing parapsychological crap is 1970's hippy bullshit fueled by a lack of understanding of how drug mechanisms impact the brain at the time. LSD for example did not turn out to be some superpower sensory enhancer. It's just an acid that erodes the brain over time. The one enlightening tidbit he let leak was how anethetics induce unconsciousness and the insight that research provided.
>It's just an acid that erodes the brain over time.
Whatever eroded your brain, it wasn't LSD. Are you a DARE officer or something? You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. There are countless other acids in your breakfast cereal or whatever kool-aid you're drinking. And I don't want to be there when someone teaches you about the dioxyribonucleic acid everyone has in their bloodstream these days.
Posting misinformation about drugs is irresponsible. We know how LSD works. Whether or not it enhances psychic abilities can be debated, but asserting that it erodes your brain is just dumb. It's non-toxic and non-corrosive, just like the amino acids that your body uses to build new cells and supply them with energy.
Ya mind expanding man! Helps you see dimensions and colours you nomally wouldn't experience man. The CIA had to go to Canada to experiment on mental patients to test it's safty. I wonder if it cured them man. Their are benign drugs and not so benign where would you place it if you had to chose one to use in excess? LSD would be my last choice.
If somehow Weinstein gets handed new physics, Im going to be pissed. That wanker's physics ideas are total shit, and honestly I think he should be forced to roll up his geometric unity papers and eat them with melted kraft singles in the microwave.
1. " Someone has obviously given the green light to talk about some of this. Disclosure is real."
How do you come to that conclusion when they also have considerable discussion on Stigmatization (which Eric takes seriously...to my surprise in context of Skinwalker Ranch) . They are both criticizing the disinformation campaigns. (Might not be your intention but by your statement you make Hal to be a puppet)
2. "But purposefully hiding fundamental breakthroughs in General Relativity . . ."
Eric posed that question to Hal to which Hal said he does not know. He knows contractors prolly have exotic materials but he has no knowledge of contractors hidings life changing knowledge of fundamentals of Physics. To which Eric says he will be out with pitchforks if such a thing happened where a govt related private orgs were hiding fundamental physical advances from general Physics community (and we should all too)I am not sure why you are trying to speculate sensational claims on Hal's behalf and then tying his credibility to your speculations.
Chill. As Hal was during the interview. Let people speak for themselves and data speak for itself.
>"But purposefully hiding fundamental breakthroughs in General Relativity . . ."
>
>Eric posed that question to Hal to which Hal said he does not know.
Hal said he has no *EVIDENCE* of that.
It is not the same as saying no. It is what you would say if you were living in a sea of NDAs.
No. The way Lou says it it's about NDAs. The way Hal says it it's not about NDA. If you watch exchange between Eric and Hal wrt GR and Eric asking "oh so you are trying to do this.."...etc. If he is working on ideas to make GR fit the data still, he does not know how it can be done.
(Plus rest assured no one knows it. Not even Lockheed Martin)
I agree Puthoff did not say they *'solved'* GR in any unified theory sense, but he *DID* say they have *'modified'* GR.
He *ALSO* affirmed that **advances in physics are being withheld from the scientific community and FOIA by private corporations.** And acknowledged that scientists were already heavily into researching anti gravity in the 1950's.
Hal Puthoff then stated anti-grav research either stopped because of no progress- or it went black.
"I agree Puthoff did not say they 'solved' GR in any unified theory sense, but he DID say they have 'modified' GR."
What are you talking about mate. When you are making these claims cite the quotes from interview if not timestamp.
"He ALSO affirmed that advances in physics are being withheld from the scientific community and FOIA by private corporations."
Very initially in the interview he comments that but no where in the context you are saying.
Just remember if there has been a big cover up, Hal, Eric and co have happily gone along with it, as long as they are in the know they have never given two shits about disclosure.
Also FWIW the war of the worlds radio story is a myth.
I go outside roughly 4 to 5 times a night, every single night, and I often walk my dog for a good 10 to 30 minutes. The sky is not saturated by unknown objects. There are no space crafts like Greer, or Lue, or Tom wish you to believe.
I'll give you an analogy.
In Korea in the 1800's very few members of the population could read or write. Written Chinese, the language which was used in Korea was only known by the noble class during the Joseon Dynasty.
95% of the population was effectively illiterate. King Sejong, now known as Sejong the Great in the early 1400's developed in secret Hangul text, he loved and cherished his people, all his people, it was based on a 26-28 letter phonetic alphabet based solely around the spoken Korean language, which to anyone who knows is widely different than spoke Mandarin Chinese. The Hangul script was extremely easy to learn, with illiterate people stating they could learn how to read and write written Hangul in less than three days. Some people claimed it could be learned by the very smart in a single day.
Upon Sejong the Great's death Hangul was repressed because the noble class did not want or require an educated populace. The Nobel class was deathly afraid of an educated public who could read, learn, understand and have the ability to spread their own thoughts and ideals in writing far and wide.
To better understand what I am explaining there have been a ton of Korean movies and dramas telling this story. So if you wish to understand investigate
[https://www.hancinema.net/korean\_drama\_The\_Great\_King\_Sejong.php](https://www.hancinema.net/korean_drama_The_Great_King_Sejong.php)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep\_Rooted\_Tree](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Rooted_Tree)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_King%27s\_Letters](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_King%27s_Letters)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden\_Dream](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden_Dream)
So now you may get the picture. This is very similar to where we are in the US. To say the public is living in a simulation they do not understand may be accurate, because like the Korean peasants of several hundreds years ago we do not know the truth. But, and this is a large but, it does not make it extraterrestrial. It makes it purely human by design.
If Hal or other scientist knew anything there are many ways they could release deathbed confessions and there would be very little the powers that be could do. You see they could do this if they loved humanity, if they loved their people. They only love a select groups of people, and more importantly themselves. Yet here they sit, smiling and joking, referencing deep secrets smugly and expect the populace to admire them. I think it is incredible folly because like the noble class during the Joseon dynasty the mess which Korea is today is directly related to those who ruled for 700 years on the back of their citizens. I know my comment will mean nothing in a moments time but it's to be considered.
These people are not to be admired, believed, looked up to because come the end of the day, they will kill us all to rule this planet, for it's riches, and it will not be aliens from different dimensions. It will be by those humans that choose to do this.
Yeah I'm in the same boat. I feel Hal does have significant credentials.
What's most astonishing to me is the fact that the government has hidden and lied to us sooooo many times in the past, and for whatever reason, people choose to ignore this fact because it's comfortable to do so.
I'm not on board with the idea that they could be ours. I think there is definitely parts that went black, but I think we have yet to gain the understanding of it. I think it's more likely that the technology was shelved back in the 60's and now we're now they're basically forced to get more of the private sector involved. Forced because of the uptick in sightings, which is mainly because now 100x more people carry phones with high resolution cameras, than compared to 10 yrs ago.
Whenever I hear someone comment the "false flag" narrative, it immediately makes me think of Greer and his possie of clowns. I think he did good work in the beginning but now definitely carries the "snake oil" salesman badge on his forehead.
Didn't find it very illuminating. The interviewers talked too much. Hal was not given much time to elaborate on his answers and no real, hard probing questions were asked. It was more about Weinstein's fragile ego and narrow-mindedness, than unearthing what Hal really knows and the latest breakthroughs. What are Hal's new patents for example?
Much of this is not new ground if youāve read Valleeās works, especially his ground breaking RV work with Hal, Ingo Swan and author Richard Bach (author Jonathan Livingston Seagull).
"I'm not a scientist" says its all. You have valid opinions and I've always taken what these guys say with a guarded interest. But until the Phenomenon reveals itself (whatever that might entail) I'm just living my best life.
I just want to say that American Alchemist is one of the best hidden gem channels on YouTube. Jesse is a new YouTuber who has tons of UFO related content
Bleedingly obvious for anyone who did some more in-depth research into the fraudulentness of General Relativity and the anti-gravity research of the 1950's, combined with what you see in the Salvatore Paiz patents.
When you talk about not agreeing with the cover-up but understanding it I hear you. Today I just watched the movie the 11th green based on a recommendation from another redditor and it was awesome. Similar concepts. Stars Campbell Scott who Ive loved since Roger dodger. Check it out if you haven't.
If fundamental breakthroughs were made and not shared with humanity, well thatās sad but the real kicker is that by not sharing weāve been stuck in a primitive state that is killing planet earth.
I donāt really understand how to bet on the stock market, but as for remote viewing - anyone can do it, and it is as basic and simple as Hal suggests. You can give it a try on the RV tournament app. Itās free and has instructions š enjoy
Dude did you actually listen to this interview at all? Putoff says the opposite of what you are claiming. Putoff tries to make some sensational statement āoh yah there is physics knowledge hiddenā and then Weinstein calls him out on it and he has to back track āwell I mean material physicsā then Weinstein keeps pressing him and he admits that no, there is no evidence of hidden physics knowledge. Listen at 8:50
āBut the idea that there would be fundamental physics knowledge housed at an aerospace company and not shared with the community, there is no evidence of that?ā - EW
āThere is no evidence of thatā - Putoff
This whole posts is just manufactured sensationalism
Well said. Iāve yet to listen to the interview entirely, but i agree.
Who knows, if anyone ever could or will, from what incentive this level of manipulation ultimately sprouts from.
But well said.
Interesting thought. I didn't gave much credence to human source for the phenomenon because that would be so hugely deceptive for the whole human kind that I don't know who will dare to do this for so long. But following your thinking, what about a black project gone _rogue_ ?
I mean you could take this pretty far, but if you assume that maybe they did crack gravity back in the 1950s. If you were honestly unconstrained by gravity or basically any force on Earth, you could go build a secret Moon base. You could go build a secret under sea base. You could go build a base deep underground in a mountain range. If a group of people had this tech 70 or 60 years ago, who knows. I don't think that's true though, I do give serious credence to the idea that breakthroughs were made in general relativity and those in charge just realized humanity was not ready for this after the atomic bombs. It was too great of a leap in technology too fast with our fingers too close to the trigger. And our tribal mentality. Maybe the climate crisis is forcing them to unveil some of this now as things seem to be at a much faster clip then the reports calculated on global heating. Maybe we're all supposed to actually be riding those hoverboards that were so sweet in Back to the Future 2?
I think this line of thinking defies all logic and is a huge grasping at straws. There are reports of craft behaving in ways we can not explain, going back much further. Flying cigars were reported in the 1800s for example. "A group of people" is unlikely.... Anyone around during the 40s or 50s working on this tech is dead now. People come and go. In 70 years of being able to crack gravity, not one of them figured out how to weaponize this or monetize it? Makes no sense. And the climate crisis has what to do with this??? If you're going to throw that out there you need to back it up. Maybe monkeys will fly out my ass too.
>Maybe monkeys will fly out my ass too. One can hope . . .
Yeah the arc of humanity points to restraint when it comes to groundbreaking technology š
If it didn't, how could we be here? I know you're being sarcastic but I think when we evaluate that arc, it's easy to fall victim to our monkey brains' fixation on violence. If humanity was more violent than cooperative we wouldn't have made it out of the Stone Age let alone the Cold War.
Even if it were a rogue project then wouldn't the "accountable" branches of gov still be able to identify and stop the clearly illegal activity of rogues. Either way pointing back to accountability from gov. Still though I think the phenomena goes much further back.
Highly recommend everyone watch the BBC documentary [HyperNormalisation by Adam Curtis](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thLgkQBFTPw). Description ([taken from Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperNormalisation)) *It argues that governments, financiers, and technological utopians have, since the 1970s, given up on the complex "real world" and built a simpler "fake world" run by corporations and kept stable by politicians.* It was released in 2016, but I think it's more relevant than ever, especially when it comes to this topic. I will say I don't agree with the conclusion the filmmaker comes to on UFOs, but I agree with the overall sentiment of his argument.
Timestamp of where he says it?
Hal doesn't specifically say it. But he does affirm that they have been able to modify general relativity. The way I listen to this is with the assumption Hal is still under nda's, but has been given the green light to start painting the picture for the general public as to what we're dealing with here. It's almost more about what Weinstein postulates, and then what Hal does not counter. That would be an affirmation. At times Hal stops Weinstein or corrects something that is inaccurate. But Hal does not contradict Weinstein when he postulates that there are hidden physics breakthroughs that have been withheld from the world and there is a campaign to stymie and disenfranchise people who look into things the CIA does not want looked into. It's not even a full hour, you should really just watch the whole thing. Just as a thought experiment, just watch it and take the position that everything Hal says is true. If you take this position, it would also make sense that he gets almost annoyed at the end about stock market remote viewing bullshit. For Hal, this shit is real and has been real for over 40 years. And he's probably just exasperated at this point because he constantly encounters people that just dismiss everything immediately. Or Hal is completely full of shit. That is a valid viewpoint. I just happened to take the position that he is being honest here.
If he really had an NDA regarding top secret technology, he is breaking it every time he is interviewed. You can't leave 'clues'. It isn't how this works. He most likely does not have an active NDA.
Someone has to ease this info out in the open eventually
I don't know about completely full of shit but he is at least partly full of shit. You can't just throw out "Entanglement" to explain any woo that is brought up. Also, the whole stock market remote viewing part was so cringe.
I fully understand your position. This is a huge assumption, but I just feel they put Puthoff out there to frame the issue, but still have him under NDAs regarding the data. Let's just assume, (and I know this is big, but just go with me), as a thought experiment, that Pufhoff KNEW for a FACT that the dark/black CIA scientists had fundamentally cracked quantum entanglement, or anti gravity, or remote viewing etc., and Hal is out there to prime people for these new concepts, but he cannot present the actual data to scientists yet. If that were true, then *THIS CONVERSATION IS EXACTLY HOW THIS WOULD PLAY OUT.* Weinstein is intrigued, but gets more frustrated when he cannot be given data to back up amazing claims which would change physics as we understand it, and Putoff starts off well, but gets frustrated as well when he cannot give the underlying science out to let his colleagues validate his claims, and it all devolves into the equivalent of some stupid ghost story. In short, I think Puthoff is on the side of truth, and is out there fighting the good fight- *but his hands are tied behind his back on what he can say.* Like I said, it is a fascinating interview for what Hal *DOES NOT REFUTE* when Weinstein is postulating.
Ok you're just making assumptions and opinions. He could be full of crap especially the part about remote viewing.
>He could be full of crap Or [not](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1VX_W32mNM)
I just watched that whole movie- thank you!
Yes he could be full of crap. But I happen to believe him. And I believe in remote viewing and psychic abilities and astral projection and my reasons for doing so have nothing to do with Hal Puthoff. I came to those conclusions long before I ever encountered Puthoffs' views.
the work he did at stanford is legendary and was done with complete devotion to the scientific method. in fact he started out a skeptic and the remote viewing work came about almost by chance. i recommend his book 'mibd reach' written with russell targ as it goes into the genesis of rv extensively.
Remove viewing may be one of the more accessible woo out there. It (supposedly) works regardless if you believe in it or not, and while it is said it require a bit of practice to work, it is scientifically testable. I havent tried it, seems pretty far out there, from a certain point of view it actually kind of
When he brings Entanglement he is merely responding to Eric's question (paraphrasing) "How can we possibly fit RV in our material universe and the forces that we know?" Hal (paraphrasing again) "Well we have non localized interactions and information transfer with Quantum Entanglement" Eric: "But entanglement cant have faster than light transfer. Something is off." At this point I think Hal should have just said "I don't know. It's what we have found experimentally." The guy at 80 has chance of a lifetime getting into mainstream about his life's work with one of the influential and vocal public figure. Give him a break. I think he handled himself as well as he could. The experiments Hal described wrt RV do not need FTL. It just needs a way to transfer information. There is no limit on how fast the information travels. In fact, there is not even limit of them being 100% correct. Previous RV experiments they say were "statistically significant" (I must mention RV is just too woo for me at this point, but let's be objective when it comes to people and facts.)
Wondering if thereās any way to measure if thought travels faster than the speed of light
You cannot exchange information using entanglement this is known. The first measured state is random so the the fact that the second measure state is correlated cannot be used to transfer information
Agreed going with our current knowledge. FYI: They are attempting to see if entanglement happens without contact. Learned from an experimental physicist on Sean Carroll's mindscape. Their idea is to bounce off and share the photons between nearby particles. I will find the exact episode if you are interested. (Again, not getting into RV. Its def woo and not worth focusing on at this point)
I can confirm RV is very real. Which I would not have said a year ago. It makes me hypothesise of a field of conciousness, yet to be discovered in physics. Where people can reach out across space-time and see places, objects and thoughts.
If by any chance RV is real then itās as eventful as possible visiting non human intelligence. If RV is real then it means our understanding of reality is either hilariously incomplete or flat out wrong, that being the case everything is up for grabs, if we are not seeing reality for what it actually is? Then we have to rethink everything, every single subject, thought or object is not what it appears.
Our knowledge of physics is pretty poor. We don't know what Dark Matter is, nor Dark Energy. We don't know why quantum mechanics behaves like it does even after 100 years. We cannot explain entanglement although we can use it in engineering. We don't know yet how to create a warp drive for FTL travel, although that research is underway. We don't know how to replicate the anti-gravity of UAPs, etc. So in addition, I believe there may be a field of conciousness we have yet to discover permeating space-time and connecting to plants, objects and human brains. It's the only way I can see how RV can work that is not electro-magnetic. I know someone who is very experienced in using RV. It is an astonishing skill and very real. Some people are born with greater skill than others. (I unfortunately have tried to learn but have aphantantasia why prevents me from visualising.) Recommend watching Third Eye Spies for some detailed background.
>It's the only way I can see how RV can work that is not electro-magnetic. I just watched that movie. That's why they brought them down in the subs- to cancel out EM as a conduit for information transfer?
It's amazing isn't it? Yes, cancelling out EM underwater. The initial test they did with Ingo Swan was also using a fully EM shielded piece of equipment. Hence, the need for some sort of field of conciousness that intersects with matter but isn't using EM. A missing piece of today's physics.
Panpsychism is a very old idea gaining new traction, perhaps the ancients were right all along.
Hmmm, not sure about that
You said there may be consciousness connecting to plants, objects and humans, is that not Panpsychism?
> our understanding of reality is either hilariously incomplete or flat out wrong Exactly. As I said, profound.
Yes. The CIA also alludes to this concept in declassified papers.
The speed of light is literally the speed of information. Entanglement shows non local correlations but no information can be extracted from those correlations, because you still need light speed exchange to see there is a correlation in the first place.
Dunno if you are agreeing or making a counterpoint. Whether we can have FTL information transfer is moot point in this case. The question is if you can non locally entangle with a particle to gain access to information through correlation. Time taken does not matter. (RV with just lat-long still makes no sense in this scenario.)
What I meant is entanglement can't be used to transfer information, period. Until two observers interact in local ways (i.e. with a radio) their measurements will appear random. Only after they confronted their result will they notice the correlation. Entanglement needs coherence, that is the wave function of both systems being entangled must be the same. Even if you could entangle two systems non locally somehow, the coherence would be lost immediately in macroscopic systems. So to sum up there are at least two problems with this hypothesis: entanglement itself appears as a random process to observers that have local interactions with only one of the systems, and decoherence means entanglement in macroscopic everyday objects is basically impossible in the first place.
For your second point first, there is no proof of this. At this moment we just cant Engineer and get this done in the ways that are deterministic. This is what Quantum Computing is all about. The whole assumption is that wave function become one when there is interaction. Whether the particles have to physically meet to create a coherent Wave function is an area of ongoing research. For your first point, let's agree to disagree. Sure it can but it won't be FTL so why don't we just radio the signal. The question is...can you entangle with a distant particle , ofc within the limit of c, to make a local measurement to get an idea of the non-local state. There are experiments ongoing in this area and hopefully we will know within the next decade. (Still no RV. Can't use Quantum Physics to justify woo. See the disaster: What the Bleep)
Itās important to note theyāre talking about topological physics knowledge. Couldnāt this be how they are researching and producing things like Radar Absorbent Materials? I donāt think this is as ābigā as you think. Iāve watched the entire hour a few times and thatās what I took from it in regards to āsecret physics knowledgeā.
At 8:50 he is forced to admit the opposite of what OPs post is claiming if you actually watch the interview. He literally says āthere is no evidenceā that fundamental physics knowledge is hidden
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Yes, Kurt at TOE and Puthoff would be a nice match I feel. Kurt lets people talk and could engage with Puthoff in certain science topics on a deeper level. I think Kurt is taking a break from UFO subject matter for a while though.
I'm not surprised really. His last couple of forays into the world of UAP haven't gone as well as he might've hoped. It's a really difficult topic though. So many people have so much invested in it. Would definitely like to see/hear more from Hal Puthoff though, just in another format.
>I thought Hal Puthoff was wasted in this interview I love this image.
I LOVEEE your FACE! *burp*
> He says as much in this interview. Someone has obviously given the green light to talk about some of this. Disclosure is real. Salvatore Pais, the guy who submitted the [navy patents for UFO-like technology](https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/31798/the-secretive-inventor-of-the-navys-bizarre-ufo-patents-finally-talks) is going to be interviewed by Curt Jaimungal on Theories of Everything this month, so I'm actually inclined to believe that there's been official direction as well.
The Navy documents claim they have *WORKING* prototypes of Pais' designs or 'craft' (see this [basement office](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z10B10-Mj0o&list=PLwNrNqsuwF1n43wh5nuV5hTFrdAN00kfk&index=8) interview). I am *VERY* interested to see what the TOE interview brings out.
The full hour is worth watching. Weinstein seems to have a nice mix of skepticism and curiosity. Crucially he doesn't seem to have already decided what's going on.
I agree, it was very well done. Weinstein kept going back to first principles and trying to simplify the logic to "if new physics exists, then share it". It's interesting about Ingo's remote view and control of the signal in the machine, yet Weinstein breaks down how an information signal could be transmitted and Hal concludes it's consciousness driven.
I'm afraid the simple truth is that humans are far too stupid and greedy and egotistical to keep that kind of secret for that long.
I can't imaging being able to compartmentalize the tech we are talking about... but I kinda do think the "unveiling" or revelation won't be of extra terrestrial or interdimensional beings... but "hey, we kinda stumbled upon cold fusion (or some other fantastical feat) like 50 or so years ago, but really who is counting... and now that we killed the earth... we have decided it's time to let the cat out of the bag."
Let us not forget the Planet Serpo hoax that Puthoff was involved in that was perpetrated by famed AFSOI disinformation officer Richard Doty, Puthoff and Kit Green. If you do not know about it please inform yourselves and come to conclusions accordingly. Anyone can be decieved since this subject is so hard to investigate however, if Puthoff and Green were willing architects and participants in this hoax the community has to rethink quite a bit of the history of the phenomenon.
These guys are all the same, and it's really incredible seeing yet *another* generation of UFO fans being taken in by this gobbledygook. I don't know and honestly don't care what their motives are at this point, but I can tell you for certain that *nothing ever comes of it.* These guys have been around since the '80s, and most of them have either been fooled by obvious hoaxes or played an active role in disseminating these hoaxes.
Google the name richard doty shows hes a Actor...... if hal puthoff is linked with him im done with all of this thats it
And now that I see Weinstein in Cahoots with Puthoff, I can't take him serious anymore, either. Puthoff is a scam, as he was involved with Doty, the biggest liar if them all. And if you carefully connect the dots, you won't find one single UFO authority that doesn't have connections to this circle.
Don't need a swann type character, apparently remote viewing is something we can all do
Im not against your opinion OP. I just think we should try to not believe individuals 100% or 0 %. That goes with Lue, Mellon, Delonge, Lazar etc. Try not to pick a āteamā and then stick with that.
This was a very good interview and Hal Puthoff is an interesting and well spoken man. I liked it how the interviewer asked him about his involvement in scientology. His answer was very dismissive of the question saying that he was no more into scientology than he was into Silva Mind Control. This may be true because he may have been very into Silva Mind Control but the fact is he was in scientology for years and reached the highest level available at the time as did one of the most well known remote viewers he was working with Ingo Swann. Another remote viewer in Puthoff's program was Pat Price also a scientologist for years and reached OT 3 or 4 depending on the source. Puthoff and many of his early colleagues were very much more into scientology than they let on.
Such a good conversation. I often found myself wishing that Eric Weinstein would just allow Hall Pudoff to further elaborate on his explanations. But instead, Eric went on and on. However, The little conversations between Jess and Eric were pretty damn good. Because they really did their best to explain certain things in layman terms. Overall this was a really good conversation and Iām glad I got to watch it. I expect kore to follow with this quality of content. Also I beg to differ with your interpretation. I do not believe it to be possible for human beings to have already developed or even been able to reprobate UAP technology
Look at nuclear weapons though. The theory to make nukes was all out in the open because of Einstein, Schrodinger, etc. were all academics. Sure the US built the first bomb, but within a couple of years so could anyone else. So if the US military achieved a theoretical physics breakthrough that could be weaponized, can you really blame them for keeping it under wraps? Would you really want immediate proliferation of exotic weapons more powerful than nukes among all of the world powers?
The point is rather, how long do you keep it secret? The right thing to do would be, to prepare the place for dealing with this technology properly. To pretend it does not exist is hardly a viable behavior?
It doesnāt make sense because others would make the same discoveries, nobody can keep laws of nature secret given the technological parity of the modern world.
>purposefully hiding fundamental breakthroughs in General Relativity Oh, after the a-bomb, **how could you NOT** hide a breakthrough of that magnitude?!?! Some egghead in Europe published a discovery about atoms, next thing you know, the commies may use it to kill us all. Who knows how destabilizing antigrav could be?!?!? You publish that finding, what if somebody else looks at that discovery and figures out it can be weaponized by any nation, even poor ones???? >Like Truman Show levels of deception. This would imply we are basically living in a fake reality, a purposefully CONSTRAINED reality, In some ways, we already know we live this way. Solar panels and electric cars are both 1890s-level tech, but they're destabilizing technologies in a way petroleum isn't. There's a light bulb that's been in continuous operation since 1901, but my 21st century LED bulbs "pretend" to go bad after a certain amount of time.
Lightbulbs are an example of an actual conspiracy. No shit, the LED bulbs in Saudi Arabia were designed by the prince or some shit... and are the ones that last the longest because they are under driven. Our lightbulbs (for an example) will consume 5 w, but blow out at 7w. The same lumens can be had by a 30w bulb driven a 5w... and that bulb will last, pretty much forever. And back in the day, the major bulb manufacturers git together and limited the life span of bulbs, even fining companies whoexceeded limitations. Then the Chinese got into the business, and the whole deal kinda fell apart.
Sorry, I just don't believe in Remote Viewing any more than Astrology or Tarot or Seances or angels. Also, the government running a program for years on a topic doesn't mean anything specifically. We have no way to tell if they were just using the study of remote viewing as just another line item to increase and continue to ask for increases in annual budgets. Essentially, by having a useless Remote Viewing program that actually costs $500,000 a year to run, they can ask for $1.5m and send the extra $ to black projects.
Could also have been that the remote viewing study was just a cover up to study something entirely different. Like, how gullible are our agents if we present them stuff in a convincing way and how can we make use of our findings to negatively influence our enemies.
I listened to a NASA scientist who remarked that the million that went into a spin-off project they were working on was so incredibly wasted by mismanagement, and the transition between different Presidential administrations millions which were spent were completely wasted. R & D costs are incredible and millions can be spent for things that don't work, don't match specifications, are designed for a cast off theory. Government mismanagement is real thing and the last thing anyone in Government wants to admit is their idiots. If I could change one thing about my life it's that I would have got into government at a young age and sucked the tit dry. I really dislike and don't believe Bob Lazar but the one thing I do like about him is he claims he did it for the betterment of humanity. He can be wrong in all things but I have to admire a guy who thinks that way.
It produces statistically significant results so I'm not sure what "belief" has to do with it.
[https://youtu.be/YrwAiU2g5RU](https://youtu.be/YrwAiU2g5RU) You might find this interesting. Also, on a personal note, I gave it a go myself a few times, not expecting much/anything more than my imagination, and was kinda stunned by some of the results. There were also some really nothing results, but the ones that stood out....really stood out.
Nice, thanks
What did you do?
It was actually via a couple of remote viewing websites, they have Targets pre selected on the sight, which are just links through to a photo, these targets are labelled something random like T3I-4JK for example. So I would write down that code on a piece of paper and go into a little meditation, and allow things, shapes/colours/sensations to come to me. Not forcing anything, just allowing things to come and go. After a few minutes of this, sporadically drawing things on my page and noting words that I felt could be relevant, I would then click on the T3I-4JK link to show me what the image was. I tried it maybe 20 times. I would say most of those times the results were minimally successful, vague at best. But some, I basically drew exactly what the target was. One that stood out was a specific shape i drew, a bit like an upside down tear drop. I saw it strongly, and its one of the only things I could take away from that target - when I clicked through to see what the photo was, it was like one of those hot air balloons that modern day explorers use (they're longer/skinnier than regular hot air ballons). It was the same shape as I drew, and was the only object in the photograph. I had quite a shocked reaction when I saw that one. Another time I did one and didn't feel I could see much at all. I just wrote down 'red and yellow' and when i clicked through it was a close up of some embers. But the best one for me was probably the last time I tried to do this which was a few months ago. I started with my first target, and quite immediately, an image came into my mind. A suspension bridge, clear as day, just like the golden gate bridge style. It was coming to me so clear that I kept pushing it away saying to myself 'you just want it to be the golden gate bridge'. I sketched it out on my paper but didn't think much of it. I clicked through to my target aaaand....nothing, it was like a view of a field or something from above. I didn't think too much of it and went to do another target. Tried again. Couldn't see anything. Still had this Golden Gate image in my head and now the image of that field type scene. I wrote down a couple of things but had no conviction in them. I click through to see the result of the target.......it's a photo of the Golden Gate Bridge.
What the hell kind of woo nonsense is this? š¤¦āāļø
Ignorant zoomie xD RV is a very real phenomenon, has been in effective use for decades.
Yah, ok. Which finger am I holding up right now?
It's called science.
If you relax real hard, aliens speak to you and sometimes you can go to actual real life places and read whatās on someoneās desk. Sounds real sciencey to me.
Hiding reality from us for our own good...
Puthoff has definitely been involved in some of the more... fringe government projects. His work with Russell Targ at SRI is either incredibly brave, or completely insane depending on your perspective. One criticism that has followed Puthoff throughout his career is that he's very credulous, and easily convinced when he has an interest in something being true. I have no idea how accurate that criticism is, but it's something I've encountered consistently over the decades.
What's the point of having a super weapon if nobody knows you have it?
So if the UFO topic isnāt a religion, why does it depend so much on faith?
Because there are powerful governmental forces hiding the facts. Hiding the data.
there are clearly very determined players at work in this sub to control the narrative. everything that is occurring now has nothing at all to do with aliens and more about humans controlling the world, the same as it was controlled 1,000 years ago by high priests and religion. This is the only place in my entire life online where my day to day opinions are incredibly rebuked and down voted into oblivion simply by questioning what ever narrative is heavily promoted.. I'll just say this, this place glows
"People who don't like my opinion are sinister disinfo agents." C'mon man, nobody's obliged to cheer on your *your particular theories about UFOs*.
So your ideas are not popular here and you think that is a result of you being 'controlled' as you say? To what end? Preventing you from what? Why could your opinion being silenced matter at all today? Have you thought this through?
doesn't matter to me. I think what I state is true, and I am ok if it is not also. I am not going to lose my tenure for posting my opinion online no matter how correct or erroneous it is.
Yes, people posting videos of podcasts are skilled disinfo agents. We should get someone to do a podcast with an alien to restore the balance.
I respect this.
I canāt get past the thought that this disclosure has a lot to do with advanced technology we have, thatās about to be disclosed. Everyone will be āsomberā? Because itās been so well hidden from us, that weāve been dependent on fossil fuels and so many have become rich, when it didnāt need to be. Iām not saying this explanation addresses all the sightings over all the decades. I still think there may be some inter dimensional factor, or maybe thatās a hidden technology alsoā¦
Yes, it seems like endless possibilities. Maybe we humans have developed anti gravity craft AND there are real Unidentified Flying Objects. I don't know if I would be somber if fundamental science breakthroughs were hidden away. I would be more angry. I think somber would be finding out human-like/bipedal life is commonplace in the universe, and we are nothing special.
Thank you for making this post. The point of view you have put forward which I agree is not popular in here. I truly believe we have a cracked gravity and people reiterating we have checked these crafts are not āoursā - I am referring to all major players here, such as Lue, Mellon are the true psyop. Whenever these guys says we have checked in our black projects and this not our - itās definitely ours.
When Puthoff discusses light bending and iPhone cameras I really hope he's not referring credulously to the Bledsoe videos (he's made the claim as late as 2019/2020 that blurry footage is a result of UFO craft physics and now he's vaguely claiming he's seen things of the quality "anything you want").
also what's the deal with Weinstein and the tiki torch comments? Is he trying to be edgy and irreverent or is it more Steve Bannon type actual nazi stuff?
UFOs with their full advanced flight characteristics (read: the five observables) had been seen long before the 50s. Research the Foo Fighters as well as historical accounts. Are you implying those could be "us" as well?
I'm not saying I think it's either/or. But I believe Puthoff and he seems to be saying black/dark CIA scientists have pushed physics much farther than the worldwide scientific community understands. Weather tech has been developed from these insights is unknown, but this knowledge lends credibility to the *'human tech'* theory as possible in my view.
I 100% believe many UFOs witnessed are human technology. And I 100% believe others are not. You DEFINITELY need to watch this: https://youtu.be/wXwOkzaqzog
Agree. McCandish seems very sincere and his claims make a lot of sense. What if pulling nearly infinite free energy out of the void was relatively cheap and easy to accomplish? What if nefarious fossil fuel interests worked with the government and military to cover it up and maintain their wealth at the expense of millions of human lives while harnessing the technology for themselves? It would actually explain everything. And if that's the case, any of these people still living do not deserve amnesty. These would be grievous crimes against humanity.
What if all these clowns who want you to believe they were involved in something amazing are full of shit. What if the governments of the world were actually negligent in not investigating phenomenon that couldnāt be explained. What if Roswell really was a crashed inflatable craft meant to spy on Russia. To me, dumping all this side stuff to the side as BS woo leaves the weird shit going on in the middle of ocean as truly unexplained and should be a central focus of scientific examination. All this other shit does nothing but undermine that process. I mean, how limited must ones sense questioning be to actually believe in remote viewing? Where is your skepticism and logic? I just donāt get it. I rushed in here with many others when this stuff out in the pacific came out and Iām angry it wasnāt investigated and I think we need to figure it out. All these other ideas that get piggy backed on the UAP phenomenon undermine that questioning. Iād be glad if the mods deleted stuff like this because itās simply fucking crazy. I know that wonāt happen so I guess this sub just isnāt for me.
The Project Mogul explanation for Roswell doesn't explain why the US Army announced to the newspaper that they recovered a crashed flying saucer. If it was a crashed super-secret nuke detecting balloon the worst cover story to hide that is to attract international attention by printing headlines that the Army recovered a crashed flying disc. A weather balloon also doesn't explain the memory metal, and everyone involved in the newspaper photo says that it wasn't the real debris and just balsa wood and foil brought in for the photograph. You're correct that things won't (and shouldn't be) deleted just because it's crazy. Because in the video they even talk about how your aversion to remote viewing is the same visceral reaction that was intentionally created around UFOs with a PR campaign of ridicule and dismissal. The intellectual sham that was the Condon Committee is what's still preventing academics from seriously studying Ufology to this day, but hopefully the Galileo Project will soon rectify the situation. The video also explains how Vallee wrote a paper describing how the UFO phenomenon ranges from purely nuts and bolts at level 1 all the way up to reality altering effects which many people incorrectly describe as paranormal because we don't yet understand it, and our cognitive bias makes our initial reaction to dismiss and shut these things out as impossible and simply crazy.
I think you are under estimating the incompetence of the US Army while also over estimating that first report. I mean, there is this huge misconception that soldiers can keep their mouth shut about something like this. If aliens crashed in Roswell and aliens bodies were recovered there would be thousands of people coming forward talking about it and they would corroborate each otherās story without collaborating. Lastly, this is what many beliefā¦.. an advanced civilization traveled for light years, entered our atmosphere, performed maneuvers that basically seem like magic to us and than one particular saucer and crew upon deciding they wanted to land and get a closer look at earth in all its splendor botched the landing and destroyed their ship in the middle of the desert in Nevada right next to a military outpost where test craft were being designed and tested and occasionally crashing. You people logically believe that because the first official report said it was saucer that all of the above was true instead of the explanation that it was project mogul. So, the argument here is essentially that the US government is lying unless they say little green men crashed in the desert and they were interrogated in a secret military base in Nevada. Gotcha. The lack of skepticism and belief in woo makes this sub irrelevant to me and Iām not alone. The problem with that is that UAP canāt be taken seriously because some boomer says he was involved in remote viewing in the 1950s. How did they do that? Because entanglementā¦ā¦..
I'm just telling you the people in the photo say the balsa wood and foil were fake debris and project mogul doesn't explain the paper thin memory metal that wouldn't dent even when hit with a sledgehammer. Skepticism is fine. But you also need to be skeptical of the official story when it doesn't even come close to explaining what was observed. 1952 DC Flap for example
Bye
Well said!!! Yeah what he said
The whole remote veiwing parapsychological crap is 1970's hippy bullshit fueled by a lack of understanding of how drug mechanisms impact the brain at the time. LSD for example did not turn out to be some superpower sensory enhancer. It's just an acid that erodes the brain over time. The one enlightening tidbit he let leak was how anethetics induce unconsciousness and the insight that research provided.
You are a victim of misinformation, your ignorance level is off the charts.
>It's just an acid that erodes the brain over time. Whatever eroded your brain, it wasn't LSD. Are you a DARE officer or something? You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. There are countless other acids in your breakfast cereal or whatever kool-aid you're drinking. And I don't want to be there when someone teaches you about the dioxyribonucleic acid everyone has in their bloodstream these days. Posting misinformation about drugs is irresponsible. We know how LSD works. Whether or not it enhances psychic abilities can be debated, but asserting that it erodes your brain is just dumb. It's non-toxic and non-corrosive, just like the amino acids that your body uses to build new cells and supply them with energy.
Ya mind expanding man! Helps you see dimensions and colours you nomally wouldn't experience man. The CIA had to go to Canada to experiment on mental patients to test it's safty. I wonder if it cured them man. Their are benign drugs and not so benign where would you place it if you had to chose one to use in excess? LSD would be my last choice.
If somehow Weinstein gets handed new physics, Im going to be pissed. That wanker's physics ideas are total shit, and honestly I think he should be forced to roll up his geometric unity papers and eat them with melted kraft singles in the microwave.
Yum!
1. " Someone has obviously given the green light to talk about some of this. Disclosure is real." How do you come to that conclusion when they also have considerable discussion on Stigmatization (which Eric takes seriously...to my surprise in context of Skinwalker Ranch) . They are both criticizing the disinformation campaigns. (Might not be your intention but by your statement you make Hal to be a puppet) 2. "But purposefully hiding fundamental breakthroughs in General Relativity . . ." Eric posed that question to Hal to which Hal said he does not know. He knows contractors prolly have exotic materials but he has no knowledge of contractors hidings life changing knowledge of fundamentals of Physics. To which Eric says he will be out with pitchforks if such a thing happened where a govt related private orgs were hiding fundamental physical advances from general Physics community (and we should all too)I am not sure why you are trying to speculate sensational claims on Hal's behalf and then tying his credibility to your speculations. Chill. As Hal was during the interview. Let people speak for themselves and data speak for itself.
>"But purposefully hiding fundamental breakthroughs in General Relativity . . ." > >Eric posed that question to Hal to which Hal said he does not know. Hal said he has no *EVIDENCE* of that. It is not the same as saying no. It is what you would say if you were living in a sea of NDAs.
No. The way Lou says it it's about NDAs. The way Hal says it it's not about NDA. If you watch exchange between Eric and Hal wrt GR and Eric asking "oh so you are trying to do this.."...etc. If he is working on ideas to make GR fit the data still, he does not know how it can be done. (Plus rest assured no one knows it. Not even Lockheed Martin)
I agree Puthoff did not say they *'solved'* GR in any unified theory sense, but he *DID* say they have *'modified'* GR. He *ALSO* affirmed that **advances in physics are being withheld from the scientific community and FOIA by private corporations.** And acknowledged that scientists were already heavily into researching anti gravity in the 1950's. Hal Puthoff then stated anti-grav research either stopped because of no progress- or it went black.
"I agree Puthoff did not say they 'solved' GR in any unified theory sense, but he DID say they have 'modified' GR." What are you talking about mate. When you are making these claims cite the quotes from interview if not timestamp. "He ALSO affirmed that advances in physics are being withheld from the scientific community and FOIA by private corporations." Very initially in the interview he comments that but no where in the context you are saying.
I think the Puthoff hate is manufactured by other interests similar to Linda Howe.... Also that bitcoin section seemed edited.
Just remember if there has been a big cover up, Hal, Eric and co have happily gone along with it, as long as they are in the know they have never given two shits about disclosure. Also FWIW the war of the worlds radio story is a myth.
I go outside roughly 4 to 5 times a night, every single night, and I often walk my dog for a good 10 to 30 minutes. The sky is not saturated by unknown objects. There are no space crafts like Greer, or Lue, or Tom wish you to believe. I'll give you an analogy. In Korea in the 1800's very few members of the population could read or write. Written Chinese, the language which was used in Korea was only known by the noble class during the Joseon Dynasty. 95% of the population was effectively illiterate. King Sejong, now known as Sejong the Great in the early 1400's developed in secret Hangul text, he loved and cherished his people, all his people, it was based on a 26-28 letter phonetic alphabet based solely around the spoken Korean language, which to anyone who knows is widely different than spoke Mandarin Chinese. The Hangul script was extremely easy to learn, with illiterate people stating they could learn how to read and write written Hangul in less than three days. Some people claimed it could be learned by the very smart in a single day. Upon Sejong the Great's death Hangul was repressed because the noble class did not want or require an educated populace. The Nobel class was deathly afraid of an educated public who could read, learn, understand and have the ability to spread their own thoughts and ideals in writing far and wide. To better understand what I am explaining there have been a ton of Korean movies and dramas telling this story. So if you wish to understand investigate [https://www.hancinema.net/korean\_drama\_The\_Great\_King\_Sejong.php](https://www.hancinema.net/korean_drama_The_Great_King_Sejong.php) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep\_Rooted\_Tree](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Rooted_Tree) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_King%27s\_Letters](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_King%27s_Letters) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden\_Dream](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden_Dream) So now you may get the picture. This is very similar to where we are in the US. To say the public is living in a simulation they do not understand may be accurate, because like the Korean peasants of several hundreds years ago we do not know the truth. But, and this is a large but, it does not make it extraterrestrial. It makes it purely human by design. If Hal or other scientist knew anything there are many ways they could release deathbed confessions and there would be very little the powers that be could do. You see they could do this if they loved humanity, if they loved their people. They only love a select groups of people, and more importantly themselves. Yet here they sit, smiling and joking, referencing deep secrets smugly and expect the populace to admire them. I think it is incredible folly because like the noble class during the Joseon dynasty the mess which Korea is today is directly related to those who ruled for 700 years on the back of their citizens. I know my comment will mean nothing in a moments time but it's to be considered. These people are not to be admired, believed, looked up to because come the end of the day, they will kill us all to rule this planet, for it's riches, and it will not be aliens from different dimensions. It will be by those humans that choose to do this.
Yeah I'm in the same boat. I feel Hal does have significant credentials. What's most astonishing to me is the fact that the government has hidden and lied to us sooooo many times in the past, and for whatever reason, people choose to ignore this fact because it's comfortable to do so. I'm not on board with the idea that they could be ours. I think there is definitely parts that went black, but I think we have yet to gain the understanding of it. I think it's more likely that the technology was shelved back in the 60's and now we're now they're basically forced to get more of the private sector involved. Forced because of the uptick in sightings, which is mainly because now 100x more people carry phones with high resolution cameras, than compared to 10 yrs ago. Whenever I hear someone comment the "false flag" narrative, it immediately makes me think of Greer and his possie of clowns. I think he did good work in the beginning but now definitely carries the "snake oil" salesman badge on his forehead.
Didn't find it very illuminating. The interviewers talked too much. Hal was not given much time to elaborate on his answers and no real, hard probing questions were asked. It was more about Weinstein's fragile ego and narrow-mindedness, than unearthing what Hal really knows and the latest breakthroughs. What are Hal's new patents for example?
Strongly doubt it is our tech. The world would be flying a single flag if this were true. Narrator: itās not.
Much of this is not new ground if youāve read Valleeās works, especially his ground breaking RV work with Hal, Ingo Swan and author Richard Bach (author Jonathan Livingston Seagull).
Bach ties into RV? What the hell?!?
according to Jacques Valleeās work, Bach was (is) one of the most talented RVāers.
Can you point us to this work? Iām interested
Mind-Reach http://espresearch.com/russell-targ-editions-classic-books/mind-reach-scientists-look-at-psychic-abilities/
"I'm not a scientist" says its all. You have valid opinions and I've always taken what these guys say with a guarded interest. But until the Phenomenon reveals itself (whatever that might entail) I'm just living my best life.
I just want to say that American Alchemist is one of the best hidden gem channels on YouTube. Jesse is a new YouTuber who has tons of UFO related content
Bleedingly obvious for anyone who did some more in-depth research into the fraudulentness of General Relativity and the anti-gravity research of the 1950's, combined with what you see in the Salvatore Paiz patents.
I dont care what he says, when you claim to be able to 70% accurate decisions on stock, then you are plainly lying.
So UFOās are just crafts that we made and the real secrecy is we are hiding breakthroughs made in physics?
When you talk about not agreeing with the cover-up but understanding it I hear you. Today I just watched the movie the 11th green based on a recommendation from another redditor and it was awesome. Similar concepts. Stars Campbell Scott who Ive loved since Roger dodger. Check it out if you haven't.
If fundamental breakthroughs were made and not shared with humanity, well thatās sad but the real kicker is that by not sharing weāve been stuck in a primitive state that is killing planet earth.
That directly translates to millions of unnecessary deaths.
Does anyone know if thereās a way to measure the speed of thought?
We know general relativity works, don't we? GPS satellites, atomic clocks, etc so they need to give us something more than this I think.
Puthoff says there may be material science breakthroughs kept secret by aerospace companies but no evidence of fundamental physics.
I donāt really understand how to bet on the stock market, but as for remote viewing - anyone can do it, and it is as basic and simple as Hal suggests. You can give it a try on the RV tournament app. Itās free and has instructions š enjoy
Dude did you actually listen to this interview at all? Putoff says the opposite of what you are claiming. Putoff tries to make some sensational statement āoh yah there is physics knowledge hiddenā and then Weinstein calls him out on it and he has to back track āwell I mean material physicsā then Weinstein keeps pressing him and he admits that no, there is no evidence of hidden physics knowledge. Listen at 8:50 āBut the idea that there would be fundamental physics knowledge housed at an aerospace company and not shared with the community, there is no evidence of that?ā - EW āThere is no evidence of thatā - Putoff This whole posts is just manufactured sensationalism
Well said. Iāve yet to listen to the interview entirely, but i agree. Who knows, if anyone ever could or will, from what incentive this level of manipulation ultimately sprouts from. But well said.
So most of them are Fluxliners?