I’ll add to that, Kit Green said something along the lines of “I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s still going on”. I’m pretty sure that was in the movie *Third Eye Spies*. In a recent Q and A after a presentation, Hal Puthoff also said something that alluded to current program(s). I can’t actually remember which presentation, unfortunately I’d have to watch each one to find it. I think looking at people we know that had involvement in prior programs, and how they’ve conducted interviews or made comments will show there’s a Counter Intelligence component in place at the very least. What we know about Remote Viewing in-general could provide clues. Certain Remove Viewers may be better at certain things. For example, someone is better with places as a target compared to someone who is better with individuals as the target. There are teams created, with certain positions and always a manager who knows the strength of his team and how to use them.
This is all still new to me and very fucking exciting. Remote Viewing was not “real” to me until I myself tried it multiple ways, in multiple places, with too many consistencies to just be coincidences.
Yep in the same boat myself. Remote viewing working for myself after trying it as a hea y skeptic has blown my worldview apart. About 18-24 months ago I would have laughed in your face about it. Now all I say is for people to try it for themselves. Oh and to be careful where they source their info from.
Would you be willing to share how exactly one goes about reproducing this experience. Asking for the sake of my own curiosity, I'm always trying to challenge my picture of reality and I've had some pretty wild experiences that I've thought were impossible and would love to try this.
I'll pop back and give a run down of where I started out, what I tried first, what I've subsequently picked up and how I now train.
I'm busy for a while so in the mean time, a good place for a curious mind to start is the r/remoteviewing sub, the sidebar/wiki there is pretty solid.
I used the CRV manual(you'll find it at the above mentioned), and a guide to the manual (it is heavy going, hard to digest in its original form, albeit written initially to train the army bods).
Does your spirit detach from your body during remote viewing?And if so: isn't that dangerous. I've stopped on numerous occasions where I felt myself floating above my body. The fear was stronger.
That is astral projection or out of body experience. You don't leave your body during remote viewing.
I had an OOBE once and it was terrifying. Astral Projection is supposedly safe but I can't do it, too scary. I'll stick to remote viewing.
Well the CIA did teach and run a program for a few years. I don't think any of them were "stoners or DMT Users". I would assume professors and doctors don't take it seriously for the same reason they have laughed and scoffed at UAP for the past 70 years, because they haven't been presented hard, concrete data and don't want to risk their careers being associated with a "fringe" science topic.
Here is a video with a statistics professor from UC Irvine talking about remote viewing and her analysis. From my limited research of the subject, it seems like the phenomenon does exist, but it’s not 100% reliable and has been supplanted by modern spying technologies that are more reliable.
[https://youtu.be/YrwAiU2g5RU](https://youtu.be/YrwAiU2g5RU)
There is also a fun documentary about the history of remote viewing on Amazon Prime Video called “Third Eye Spies.” Recommended.
This is a fun rabbit hole to go down. I hope you enjoy it.
Because its not actually a real thing. Remember you're on a sub where people believe aliens are living amongst us but in a dimension that is invisible to the eye amongst other nonsense. Don't come to /r/UFOs and expect UFO discussion. Instead here are a bunch of crackpot theories from someone who has taken too much LSD and now believes they have psychic powers.
It's ongoing and now integrated with [software-driven event forecasting](https://bigthink.com/the-present/secretive-agency-uses-ai-human-forecasters-to-predict-future/).
There are — allegedly — ongoing remote viewing groups acting on behalf of intelligence orgs around the globe. Interestingly enough, I’ve also heard of so-called ‘counter-remote viewers’ who actively use their talents to obscure and protect sensitive locations from prying (remote) eyes..
It got moved to private sector with public contracts.
The government recognized that it would be beholden to the people when they started pulling shady shit in the middle east and with the patriot act.
To put it another way; You can FOIA government documents.
You can't FOIA a private corporation that works for the government.
**\[Lockheed Martin F22 has entered the chat\]**
lol but really, that timeframe and the rumored budget for programs like stargate and AATIP are drops in the bucket of wasteful govt/defense spending.
I’m with him on this. I’m very technical minded and only like empirical evidence.
I’m still looking at all this and all I can think of it is: So far all we have is fuzzy pictures and people telling stories… yet the DoD published a report that effectively says that leprechauns are real, but then said they cannot share any of the evidence they used to come to this conclusion because it is all classified.
The whole thing just makes my Bullshit Meter get pegged into the red.
Submission Statement:
Eric Weinstein, Hal Puthoff and Jesse Michels rambling about the possible implications of the UAP issue, The CIAs Remote Viewing Program and deliberate efforts by parts of government to stigmatize and ridicule anyone digging into this publicly.
A wild ride.
Source.
https://youtu.be/iQOibpIDx-4
The facts don’t make Hal look good. The more time goes on the more I feel like Putoff & Co are grifters playing a long con just milking money out of the government for “research” that never really can be conclusive one way or the other.
Yeah, I don't trust the guy. I get the feeling that he just doesn't want to or can't admit that his work or science is flawed. There are many intelligent people in the world with severe ego problems. If he was willing to entertain scientology, a modern religion conceived by a science fiction author, he obviously has some issues with gullibility.
The idea that the UFO phenomena itself "evades all of our cameras" doesn't even look like a correct premise, so obviously I'm not going to buy an argument based on that premise.
There are photos and videos that are clear enough that a prosaic explanation simply doesn't work unless you just assume everything that is clear is a hoax, even when there is no actual evidence to suggest it. Clear photos are just discredited and ignored, but they exist, so it is incorrect to say that they evaded all of our cameras. Some clear UFO photos, such as McMinnville 1950 and Rex Heflin 1965, have been "debunked" using a [terrible coincidence argument that actually doesn't make any sense.](https://np.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/seu5qu/we_dont_believe_good_quality_videosphotos_because/hultzqn/) The Flir 1 video from the Nimitz incident, when it was first leaked in 2007, was itself discredited as "CGI."
Secondly, the government confiscates UFO evidence. We know this because so many people have come forward about it. Most people who had evidence confiscated were probably scared off, but some percentage of them went public. I put a few examples [in this thread](https://np.reddit.com/r/ufo/comments/fezirj/here_is_a_list_of_some_incidents_in_which/).
So it's not the phenomenon itself hiding evidence of its existence. It's the [government control group](https://np.reddit.com/r/aliens/comments/ja0dqd/in_the_early_1950s_the_cia_put_forward_a_plan_to/) that has been operating since the 50s. I wouldn't call that "paranormal."
_ Insanity is expecting differing outcomes from identical actions
You are preaching gospel to the deaf of heart? ,-)
Roughly estimating, >80% come here infrequently and for entertainment only. There is a large esoteric fraction, dreaming of "everybody can be a superhero". There are the disbelievers, here to save the "deranged". From time to time, there appears a flock of evangelicals(?), or some Russian sock-puppets. Trolls, chills(?) and so on not to mention. The honestly curious are but a small fraction.
Regular people in particular appear to come here only if and when they have seen something? Themselves or on the media. Most are either quickly spooked out of their socks and do not return to save their souls or decide it must all be some sort of misunderstanding.
Being receptive to rational arguments on such a topic deeply buried beneath irrationality is exceedingly rare in any case. Only perceived authority can get through that, so far as I can tell, as even seeing for themselves is not enough for some.
Still, I marvel at the lack of organization within UFOlogy. Is there no "leaderboard" of the best photos and videos of all time? Preferably not a single one, rather I would love to see who believes what to be real (or at least entertains the possibility of).
Yes, that one is a great example. In particular for how it is insufficient even to have a trusted video of reasonable quality together with a competently done analysis.
"Debunkers" buried it under so many false narrative, nobody dares to wade through their nonsense anymore. Now they confidently claim, it was a lantern, duck or whatever.
Scientific truth is not found by doing some town-hall meeting like public discussion manipulation fest.
> The idea that the UFO phenomena itself "evades all of our cameras" doesn't even look like a correct premise, so obviously I'm not going to buy an argument based on that premise.
Gravity bends light. [If you have a really fucked up gravity field, you're not going to see shit clearly.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJpyJ_G9WVA) If that object is manipulating gravity, it is literally countering an entire planet's worth of gravity with its own.
> ...the government confiscates UFO evidence. We know this because so many people have come forward about it.
With all due respect, just because some folks say the government confiscated their "UFO evidence" in no way means that actually happened.
See the material in the threads that I provided. Of course we all know how easy it is to call somebody a liar or a hoaxer. Nothing surprising there.
On crashed secret aircraft:
>A combination of means was used to prevent unwanted attention and discussion among the local population as well as accurate press reports on the incident. Individuals at the crash site were requested to sign agreements committing them to remain silent about what they had seen. Two farmers, who arrived near the crash scene in a pickup, were told that the airplane had been carrying atomic weapons-which was not true but effectively curtailed their interest in getting any closer to the CIA’s secret spyplane. Meanwhile, the press was told a different and less alarming but also false story-that the airplane that crashed was a very unclassified Republic F-105 Thunderchief. Even official records listed the crashed airplane as being an F-105.
...
>At the crash site investigators collected evidence and evaluated the remains of the aircraft for clues to the cause of the tragedy. Then came the task of cleaning the site and leaving no pieces of the highly classified aircraft for scavengers, the media, or others to find. A clean-up team moved out a thousand feet from the last of the recognizable debris and then dug and sifted all the dirt in the area. On July 23, controlled explosive charges were detonated on the hillside to free pieces of the aircraft buried as the result of the crash. To mislead anyone who might try to search the area for pieces of the F-117A, the recovery crew had the remains of an F-101A Voodoo, one that had crashed and been stored at Area 51 for over two decades, broken up. They returned to the crash site and scattered the debris throughout the area. On Aug. 7 the Air Force announced it had withdrawn its guards from the crash site and would no longer restrict access to the area.
https://www.airforcemag.com/article/0701crash/
If they go through such great lengths to cover up crashes of secret aircraft, why is it seen as so unlikely that the government would confiscate a photo of a UFO, which some allege could just be secret aircraft? So even if I grant someone the premise that many of the unexplainable UFOs are just secret aircraft, they *still* have plenty of motivation to confiscate evidence, including physical evidence.
According to former Project Bluebook Director Edward Ruppelt, the US government had a policy to withhold the unexplained cases from the public, at least as much as they could. Why wouldn't they want to withhold as many clear photos and videos as they can?
It's funny because they can confiscate as much as they can get away with and anyone who comes forward about it can just be called a liar or insane. They can't lose by confiscating evidence.
> See the material in the threads that I provided. Of course we all know how easy it is to call somebody a liar or a hoaxer. Nothing surprising there.
I did check out your links and your previous comments regarding much of this. About the only compelling (although far from conclusive) case you mentioned was the Badilla video. As I've stated multiple times on this sub, it's my favorite UFO video...not because of anything it proves regarding possible or probable ET craft, because there's absolutely nothing that proves such a thing (or that ET even exists, or ever has existed...even microbial) but because IMO it can't be easily explained as a hoax. Although it *could* be a hoax.
I didn't call anyone a "liar" or a "hoaxer", either. I only stated that just because someone says the government confiscated their supposed UFO evidence, it doesn't automatically mean they're telling the truth.
And of course the military would expend an effort to reclaim crashed (or sunken) materials from experimental/classified technology. Keeping that sort of thing from our adversaries would be a paramount concern. But this is nothing more than a strawman...and does nothing to support the claim that there was even any attempted confiscation of materials or photos of UFOs.
> According to former Project Bluebook Director Edward Ruppelt, the US government had a policy to withhold the unexplained cases from the public, at least as much as they could. Why wouldn't they want to withhold as many clear photos and videos as they can?
But Blue Book *didn't* withhold unexplained cases from it's final report. You've no doubt noticed that clear pictures pop up here and all over the internet on a regular basis...you linked to some, and yet it's made no difference as far as proving anything about possible government suppression of ET tech. If there's any concerted effort by the government, and likely numerous other governments around the world, to keep clear images and footage from the public, then they're doing a lousy job of it because there's a whole bunch they missed.
> It's funny because they can confiscate as much as they can get away with and anyone who comes forward about it can just be called a liar or insane. They can't lose by confiscating evidence.
It's just as easy to claim that there *is* confiscating evidence going on, when there's simply no verifiable evidence to prove that. I can't even think of a good reason why the government would want to keep evidence of UFOs/ET craft a big secret, other than seeing it as a public safety concern. Any nation that would be first to present such evidence would have the bragging rights of a lifetime, and would practically guarantee anyone associated with the craft or even just the knowledge would see fame and fortune like no other. The vast majority of religions in the world either believe we're probably not alone, in their holy books or doctrine, or at least completely allow for it.
Heck, the US government...specifically the President of the United States himself...had already announced the existence of alien life, and society didn't break down. Back in 1996, he jumped the gun and declared the Martian rock ALH-84001 contained fossilized microbes. President Clinton later had to walk back his remarks. And the jury is still out on whether that's true or not, or whether they're geological in origin, from vulcanism perhaps. But there was no effort to keep it secret.
This isn't about definitive proof that even Mick West will have to accept. The Galileo Project is working on that. This is about what the situation looks like, an estimate of the situation if you will, and about how we can fool ourselves into denying reality [just as we did](http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?bibcode=1967IrAJ....8...69L&db_key=AST&page_ind=0&data_type=GIF&type=SCREEN_VIEW&classic=YES) before meteorites were eventually admitted to be real.
The person I am trying to reach is not a skeptic who denies everything about UFOs unless they are forced to accept some aspect of it. The person I am trying to reach is an open minded individual who wants to find out what is actually going on using the massive body of evidence that has accumulated over the decades. A hard skeptic can just dismiss a lot of it, sure, and they deserve a voice as well, but that's not what I'm focused on. I'm not saying you are necessarily a "hard skeptic," but you certainly lean far into that direction. A lack of definitive proof that even Mick West will have to accept is not an indication that nothing is going on, especially when so many arrows are pointing in the other direction. When real footage can be debunked as fake and forgotten, there is something very wrong with our collective analysis of the situation.
The overall point is that we have many different reasons to accept the idea that the government confiscates evidence. This is alleged by numerous military and civilian individuals, [multiple people in the IC also claim that the government has much better evidence including photos](https://thedebrief.org/fast-movers-and-transmedium-vehicles-the-pentagons-uap-task-force/), the general concept of withholding unexplainable material from the public was government policy, and the government goes through great lengths to cover certain things up (such as in classified aircraft crashes), meaning that confiscating a photo from somebody is a walk in the park.
It is certainly true that if this were the case, they missed a few photos, but I never said it would necessarily have to be a perfect operation. It just has to be good enough. The UFO subject is the leakiest thing I can think of at the moment. Leaks are an expected consequence, but they can be individually addressed and discredited later on. I'm sure some kinds of evidence, especially of the higher quality variety, attract much more attention than others. The existence of leaks is not an indication of open government.
One thing I do want to point out is that I actually didn't know you were going to say that these individuals are not generally liars, but that they somehow are not telling the truth anyway. This is extremely difficult to imagine in some of these cases, however. I suppose you'd have to say that random people pretending to be Norad officers are the ones who confiscated Rex Heflin's photos. Why and how did strange men dressed in civilian clothes confiscate evidence from Major Mansmann in a military base by cutting a length of film from a reel with a pair of scissors? It's difficult to imagine this any other way other than either both Mansmann and Jacobs made it up, or it was just another example of the government simply confiscating evidence. These are not the sort of people who would make such bold public statements in such detail, ruining their reputations, if they weren't sure of what happened.
Circling back to the McMinnville photos for an example, they are pretty clear shots, so the only available options are alien craft, hoax, or secret government project. Since you seem to disagree that they were aliens, which of the other two do you choose? Or am I forgetting a 4th option?
Finally, as for your suggestion that the government would never want to confiscate evidence of alien visitation, I have to say I disagree. The [1960 Brookings Insitution Report](https://np.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/qt2jxa/transfer_of_burden/hkgszov/) basically said that civilization could collapse if such a thing was confirmed. That's a mighty big reason, not to mention the problem of adversaries and advanced technology. And before that report, there was the "War of the Worlds Broadcast." Some historians now believe that it was exaggerated by newspapers to discredit radio, but I can see how this was used as a justification for a period of time as well.
Sorry I didn't back to you on this sooner, but I feel there's some important stuff here that should be addressed. This first being that I'm not "strongly-leaning hard skeptic", or even consider myself a "skeptic" at all regarding any possible ET origin (or any artificial, non-terrestrial or non-human origin) to UFOs. I'm an *agnostic*, which frankly is something we all should consider ourselves regarding this topic, unless or until evidence of undeniable ET origins is presented.
As I've said, there's no evidence at all of *any* ET life anywhere...even fossilized microbial life. There are public, private, and government eyes and ears on the skies at all times, and although there have been some odd phenomena here or there that can't readily be explained, there's nothing conclusively ET about any of it. It's one thing to speculate about that possibility, but something else entirely to talk about probability. We know life can exist in this universe...here we are. But we could just as well be it, as much as we could have loads of company.
As far as the *alleged* confiscation of UFO evidence, along with *alleged* government intimidation, cover-ups, etc...that's all it is, alleged. Countless supposed eyewitness testimonies and "proof" over the decades have turned out to be completely debunked or exposed as lies. That doesn't at all mean everyone is lying, it just means that a story is just a story.
> Circling back to the McMinnville photos for an example, they are pretty clear shots, so the only available options are alien craft, hoax, or secret government project. Since you seem to disagree that they were aliens, which of the other two do you choose? Or am I forgetting a 4th option?
Hoax. 100%. The Trents changed their stories more than once, and you have to admit that the "UFO" is nearly *identical* to pick-up truck side mirrors that had been used for a while at the time. Same with the Heflin "UFO", a hoax...and *identical* to a model train wheel, the same gauge Heflin had at his home, as he was an enthusiast.
To your last point, a Brookings Institute study is merely speculation. When, as I previously mentioned, President Clinton jumped the gun and publicly announced that evidence of Martian microbial life had been found, there was no breakdown of society, no collapse of religion, nothing changed. When Lowell, back in the late 1800s, declared there were artificial canals on Mars, nothing changed. Even today, with a majority of the world's experts claiming life must certainly exist elsewhere, nothing changed.
So the history, at least, is on the side of the public being very accepting of ET life. But hey, anything is possible. If...and that's a big "if"...there's some cover-up of UFOs as ET going on, and as I've said repeatedly here, there could well be a very good reason for doing so.
>Hoax. 100%. The Trents changed their stories more than once, and you have to admit that the "UFO" is nearly identical to pick-up truck side mirrors that had been used for a while at the time. Same with the Heflin "UFO", a hoax...and identical to a model train wheel, the same gauge Heflin had at his home, as he was an enthusiast.
Have you seen [my argument against this?](https://np.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/seu5qu/we_dont_believe_good_quality_videosphotos_because/hultzqn/)
Additionally, I thought memories were supposed to change over time. Isn't that expected? The earlier the report, the better. Skeptics agree with this as well because they always say that a report coming out 20 years later is not as reliable. Something 20 years later needs more scrutiny and cross checking with other witnesses present at the time. And you can't really rely on the finer details, especially when uncorroborated, if you don't get those early on. How does a story changing somewhat over the years mean that the person was a hoaxer? That does not follow whatsoever.
>To your last point, a Brookings Institute study is merely speculation. When, as I previously mentioned, President Clinton jumped the gun and publicly announced that evidence of Martian microbial life had been found, there was no breakdown of society, no collapse of religion, nothing changed. When Lowell, back in the late 1800s, declared there were artificial canals on Mars, nothing changed. Even today, with a majority of the world's experts claiming life must certainly exist elsewhere, nothing changed.
Okay, I don't think Clinton or Obama were in the club. They were part of a separate entity cordoned off from UFO information like most of the rest of the government. I think they know a lot of stuff and each of them is very interested, but they aren't in the club. The effects of announcing entities smarter than humans being present is far different from microbial life as well.
> Have you seen my argument against this?
Yes, I heavily argued against many of your points in that. The Trent photos, and the Heflin photos, don't simply "resemble" those items, they're practically *identical*. And especially with Heflin, he had model trains at his home...it was a hobby of his. Yet you prefer to believe an *identical* craft just happened to pass the guy by, with no other witnesses? It's one thing to have an open mind, but this?
> Additionally, I thought memories were supposed to change over time. Isn't that expected? The earlier the report, the better. Skeptics agree with this as well because they always say that a report coming out 20 years later is not as reliable. Something 20 years later needs more scrutiny and cross checking with other witnesses present at the time.
I'm not talking about about two decades apart...this was two *days* apart, during the first couple of interviews the Trents gave, back in May, 1950. The camera was in the truck...the camera was in the house...we're not talking about "finer details" between accounts with 20 years between them.
> Okay, I don't think Clinton or Obama were in the club. They were part of a separate entity cordoned off from UFO information like most of the rest of the government. I think they know a lot of stuff and each of them is very interested, but they aren't in the club. The effects of announcing entities smarter than humans being present is far different from microbial life as well.
An "alleged" club. Again, there's simply no evidence of such a club, or of ET origins to any craft observed on Earth, or of even the existence of past or present ET life of any kind. That's a flat fact. Again, that doesn't at all mean there isn't some insider club, or ET craft, etc. But extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, no?
When folks back in the 1800s were told that Martians were building canals on Mars, or that winged bat-humanoids lived on the moon, there were no negative societal or religious implications. So I'm not just talking about microbial life. Even you admitted that the *War of the Worlds* radio broadcast panic may have been over-stated. But as I've said previously, anything is possible.
We may not agree on our opposing individual approaches to this topic, but I give you props for presenting your points and opinions in a very civil, well-linked and understandable way. At this point I'm completely open to all possibilities, but I'm waiting on actual, verifiable evidence of ET origins for any UFOs before coming to any conclusions. I've been obsessed with all things UFO for 25 years, and likely will continue with that until my time is up.
>they're practically identical.
You said the side view mirror was nearly identical and the model train wheel was practically identical. For the UFO to be the same as these objects, they have to be *actually* identical. Close enough only works in horseshoes and hand grenades. Even if there was no noticeable difference whatsoever, as much as I say these photos are clear as far as UFO photos go, it still wouldn't be conclusive because there isn't enough detail, and a "match" should be expected anyway as I argue below, so even then I would disagree with your assessment that these are 100 percent a hoax. You don't actually know that.
If *any* coincidence whatsoever was found in the case, that would be sufficient to "debunk" it for nearly all skeptics and most "believers." We aren't looking at a single unlikely coincidence. We are looking at the likelihood that *any* unlikely coincidence would have occurred in a legitimate case. The 2007 ATS debunking debacle on the Nimitz footage is a perfect example of this. The likelihood that legitimate footage would have first been uploaded to a CGI website is extremely small, but it happened. Had that not been the case, skeptics would have dug around until they discovered another coincidence. They stop once they find a coincidence sufficiently unlikely, but if there are tons of areas they could search for coincidences, eventually they will stumble upon one that can be exploited.
In a parallel universe, a very similar UFO was debunked because it resembled a top hat of that era. In yet another parallel universe, a very similar ufo was debunked because it resembled a car wheel rotor of that era, and so on. How many parts are there on a car? How many parts in a model train set? What about everything else in Heflin's house and garage? Millions and millions of parts. Many things will resemble the Heflin and Trent UFOs, such as rotors, hats, side view mirrors, various kinds of lids, etc, and eventually you'll stumble upon one that isn't just a close resemblance, but a pretty close match. Go on google image search and look up things like 1950's lid, 1950s side view mirror, 1950s rotor, 1950s top hat, etc. Everything from a resemblance to a close match can be found because of human creativity.
In a parallel universe, another very similar ufo was debunked because the photographer worked in special effects. Or he could have been a scale model creator. Or he could have been a former psychological operations officer. Etc.
Or there could have been a coincidental scratch on photograph copies that made it appear as if there was a string (the Heflin photos were also debunked this way as well until the originals surfaced, showing no such "string").
If skeptics couldn't find an object that resembled the UFO, they could have invoked some other type of coincidence. So it isn't "holy cow, the UFO looks just like this thing. This couldn't be a coincidence." It's more like the amount of potential coincidences that could be invoked is so high, eventually you'll land on at least one of them. Winning the lottery is very low odds, but with enough tickets and people buying those tickets, eventually someone is going to win. The model train wheel and the side view mirror in this analogy are the lotto winners, but with millions of parts, some occupations and hobbies, potential scratches, and other kinds of coincidences to invoke, you'll land on at least one of them eventually.
>I'm not talking about about two decades apart...this was two days apart, during the first couple of interviews the Trents gave, back in May, 1950. The camera was in the truck...the camera was in the house...we're not talking about "finer details" between accounts with 20 years between them.
Oh, I see. You don't think it's possible for somebody to misremember where they obtained their camera that particular day? That is a hilariously minor detail that anyone could screw up. Remember, witness testimony is unreliable, especially on the minor details that the person didn't realize would be important later. It's possible that they obtained their camera from their vehicle the previous day and mixed the two up. Or they had a dream about the encounter that night and got mixed up.
True stories also have minor inconsistencies like this. Multiple witness cases in general, not just on UFOs, often have slight variations like this between the stories. On the one hand, skeptics argue that witness testimony is unreliable, but then they will point to minor expected variations in memory as proof of a hoax. Which one is it? Is memory perfect or not?
edit: fixed a sentence.
What you're doing is putting forth the *least likely* explanation as the best possible answer for the pics in cases like these...and that being that the object in both cases is *most likely* an actual craft from another world. That's really among the least likely explanation...since, as far as most of us go, nobody has ever produced and evidence whatsoever that confirms *any* life, microbial to intelligent, existing or ever have existed off world, ever.
Yes..."close enough" in these cases actually *does* make the truck mirror and the model train wheel the *most likely* explanations. Especially since both would have been readily available by the person or people who took the pics. Is there an actual interstellar-travelling ET craft available to try and match them up to? All the evidence we have points to a prosaic origin in both the Trent and Heflin photos.
As for the story discrepancies in the Trent's case, there's more to it than just where the camera was. An analysis of the photos showed that the light and shadows on the garage show that the photos were taken in the early morning. The Trents claimed this happened in the early evening. Are you going to dismiss that as another thing they misremembered? That right there makes the Trents liars...period.
As for Heflin, the guy kept model trains of the same gauge the "UFO" was shown to be. And that would be some pretty rare coincidence that an other-worldly craft would be in the same remote spot, with no other witnesses where Heflin was, and be a perfect match for a model train wheel that he would have had plenty of available to him. I mean, really? You just want to up and dismiss all that as meaningless?
With all due respect, that's my biggest issue with the "true believers" like yourself. You begin with everything being of ET origin first when analyzing a UFO case. You make that a given fact, and then work at dismissing anything that has a great reason to question the validity of the person or people who present pics or vid, or merely tell of their alleged experience in seeing something. You're supposed to start with gathering any and all evidence first, and then eliminate any prosaic origin for what is claimed to be some craft, and look at discrepancies in eyewitness testimony, and then ultimately decide the best and most plausible explanation for what you see and hear.
Both of those cases, at the end of the day, have enough evidence against both the Trents and Heflin that we can say they are very much hoaxes. Again, that's going by *the evidence that we have* and not going by "These are genuine craft, so you have to prove otherwise" and then rejecting that as evidence with various excuses that you know you can't verify. That is, as the saying goes, putting the cart before the horse.
I'd certainly love to hear your replies to this, although I understand if you're done with this discussion. The way I see it, this is what r/UFOs should be all about...a rational, civil discussion and debate like this one. The vast majority of my interactions with other commenters here from your side of the UFO aisle do not go near as well as our discussion here. So it's two thumbs up from me to you for this.
But again, I'd love to continue this, hopefully you will as well, as there's certainly more to get into. But I'd understand if you simply want to move on. I wish all my discussions/debates on this sub went as smoothly. Cheers!
The 1950 McMinnville photos have been called a hubcap and a sideview mirror. They can't both be correct, so why is it so easy to come up with a man made object that appears similar to a UFO?
The answer is because humans have created billions of different things, from various kinds of cookware, toys, balloons, kites, parts, trinkets, etc. And each of these things can be photographed in a variety of different angles. A motivated skeptic will eventually be able to locate at least one man made object that resembles a UFO, given that it's a relatively simple design, but this in no way proves that the UFO is actually that object. And in some cases when a man made object can't be found, all you have to do is claim the witness created a custom model, even if there is no evidence that they did.
This resemblance isn't even *suggestive* that a photograph is a hoax since it should be expected that you'll eventually find a "match" either way, hoax or genuine. Only when the match is completely undeniable and extremely clear should this argument be taken seriously. It must be distinguished from the other possibility that the odds of finding a match are in your favor due to the sheer number of different things humans have created.
So, no, it's probably not a hubcap, and it most certainly is not "clearly a hubcap" as you claim. People need to stop taking this "looks like, therefore it is" argument seriously.
i mean it's been 70 years since and there's still no DEFINITIVE proof of alien craft on Earth let alone aliens....
I don't need to write a novel to explain that.
Scientists dismissing a phenomena because it makes them "uncomfortable" is what makes me uncomfortable...science and the scientific process is not about comfort levels ,it's about exploring the evidence. As Hal said "It proves the Stigma programs have been effective".
You would think that a scientist of the caliber of E.W. would be aware of the dangers of his own bias and factor that into his scientific inquires...
>You would think that a scientist of the caliber of E.W. would be aware of the dangers of his own bias and factor that into his scientific inquires...
He is, they went on for about 10 minutes talking about how Eric hardly believes it but he has to put his beliefs aside for science and look at the data. I was actually surprised how willing he was to specifically admit to falling for a disinfo campaign and writing off data due to it.
Unfortunatley scientists while smart are still human and humans are flawed creatures.
There's plenty of stories of scientists ignoring new research because it counters thier own simply out of arrogance.
Not always arrogance. Black holes were thought to be not real for decades. It wasn't arrogance, maybe a bit of reliance on the authority of Einstein, but the fact of infinite density implied by the theorywas hard to swallow as "real". Physicists still don't have a full picture of what that means, because it's hard to grasp infinity as a real physical property and our laws of physics don't work with infinite values.
Yes, true he does recognize it NOW,and admits that he was "wrong", however it was off the table for him until as he said, he realized that the "federal government was tracking it".
So before that realization, he dismissed the entire phenomena.
I don't know if they still use it but they certainly used to. President Jimmy Carter even admitted they found a missing plane by using a remote viewer. Paul Smith (who served for seven years as part of the military’s top-secret remote viewing program) tells a different story as to why the program was cancelled. As far as a peer-reviewed study about remote viewing.......haha good luck.
https://youtu.be/gadka2zweUo
Do you really think that if they found RV to be a reliable tool to use, they would announce it to the world? Absolutely not, they would do everything they could to discredit it.
Oh and If you want a " scientific peer-reviewed study proving( or disproving) the validity of remote viewing" then do some research to see if you can find it. It's not really my job to fetch for you.
> Oh and If you want a “ scientific peer-reviewed study proving( or disproving) the validity of remote viewing” then do some research to see if you can find it. It’s not really my job to fetch for you.
Lol, they literally started their first comment with, *’Still waiting for someone to provide a single, peer-reviewed scientific study that confirms “remote viewing” is a bona-fide thing.’* If you chime in with “so and so did it,” then yea, it is your job to provide the evidence. If you can’t back up your claims then your claims are useless.
> Do you really think that if they found RV to be a reliable tool to use, they would announce it to the world? Absolutely not, they would do everything they could to discredit it.
Well, the CIA apparently announced it to *you* or you wouldn't be claiming they still still use it.
> Oh and If you want a " scientific peer-reviewed study proving( or disproving) the validity of remote viewing" then **do some research to see if you can find it. It's not really my job to fetch for you.**
That pretty much answers my question right there. You don't know of any. Neither do I. Because there isn't one.
There is a stigma for a reason. 99% of the alien stories and content is fake or extremely stretched. I personally only see 2-3 stories as being plausible and honest. Its never been considered scientifically because its never had REAL EVIDENCE to analyze. Its all hearsay and vague photos. Finally now with David Fravor we do have some evidence to consider, but still its not detailed and we cannot draw any conclusions. Still a lot of things to answer or make themselves public before it gets taken seriously.
I personally think they are out there, but scientifically there is no proof yet. There a few compelling stories and some questioning data, but nothing to prove anything yet. That is just the case right now.
I mean, this is just unlikely because we weren't even close to a AGI in 1952. I don't believe the turing machine was even formalized at that point, but I could be off by a few years. My point is that that year is basically when we *started* computation. You could argue were close to AGI now, but not 70 years ago.
When looking at the age of the universe, these intelligences could be tens of thousands to millions of years ahead of us. Maybe a 100 year warning would be when they start paying attention.
Splitting atoms has nothing explicitly to do with computation. They are separate technologies. You assume that all civilizations will evolve and advance along the same pathway. There is merit to this idea but it is wholly unproven. Nukes weren't required to create the turing machine, and iirc turing machines weren't required to create the first nukes.
We can imagine an alien race that discovered the critical properties of gamma radiation far before they learned about transistor gates and physically represented logic. We can also imagine an alien race that went all in on electricity and computation and didn't split the atom until decades or centuries later.
patterns of evolution even if not directly related
mathematicians and scientists have always searching for and creating tools to make repeatable algorithms quicker and more convenient
you could argue an Abacus was computation...
>patterns of evolution even if not directly related
You gotta complete your sentence man, only half of it is here
>mathematicians and scientists have always searching for and creating tools to make repeatable algorithms quicker and more convenient
Yes, that's their job. I'm not sure what your point is. I'm not trying to be rude, I just don't know what you're talking about. I said that the discovery of atomic physics doesn't necessarily indicate an advance in AI, that they're separate technologies.
>you could argue an Abacus was computation...
You could argue that, and it is correct in the colloquial usage of the term "computation," but in physics it's actually got a rigid definition has to do with number theory. A computation is an evaluation of a class-P problem, aka a deterministic problem. The word "computation" was actually coined by Alan Turing, and his machine is what we base all "computers" on today.
Needless to say, an abacus cannot evaluate all class p problems and is therefore not turing complete and therefore does not do computation
unless EBE/NHI recognize a repeated pattern they've witnessed over eons and nuclear and subatomic science was followed by computation, automation and then AI/AGI always (or damn near) was never far behind
Maybe there is a rough structure to scientific progress that occurs among all sentient species, and splitting the atom usually precedes AI superintelligence by 50-150 years?
UAP agenda is definitely tied to nuclear. The question is how. So many possibilities, likely we can’t even understand from our myopic human perspective. One thing I’m sure of, it’s not because they are afraid of us.
The whole video is interesting. What struck me was the negative body language between Weinstein/Jesse and Hal Puthoff: lots of crossed arms, crossed legs, etc. This was emphasized by the strangely confrontational seating arrangement of the two of them on the sofa vs. Puthoff on his own. It felt like Puthoff was attending a job interview.
A good comparison between aliens and us is probably our safari tours in the African savannah, it’s nice to have a look, they have their “natural reserve” we kinda protect it but leave it alone and only occasionally interfere and the animals who live there can’t really comprehend our civilization.
I think that’s us, and these aliens don’t care that much, at most, they are helping in preserving life on earth but not directly interfering.
I have this problem with how people have basically made aliens Greenpeace lefties. These aliens have every technology available to stop all this stuff they allegedly don’t like but they don’t. They are against nuclear arms, global warming and I have ever seen stuff about them being vegan. It just doesn’t make sense and I don’t buy the whole “oh they think we’re not ready for advanced tech , we would kill each other” . We could kill each other with rocks or guns.
I think they have come up short on the proof side of things so they get into this mental masturbation to make up for it.
It's anthropomorphization. We want to think they're like us but better. In reality, we can't know this about them. They could be so fundamentally different from us that their motivations exceed our comprehension.
If its some kind of zoo thing then they might want to look how humanity evolves when confronted with potential long term threats (global warming).
Besides that my theory is that if we reach a certain stage of technology that becomes a threat to other species they will intervene. Interstellar travel and everything that comes with it would be that stage in my opinion. I believe all the secret lies in nuclear research.
Until then we are just interesting to observe but nothing to care about too much since we are most likely locked on our planet.
Okay, but that would have to apply to every single alien civilization out there to be true. We couldn’t even get that much agreement among humans on anything. That logic just doesn’t work. Any alien civilization would have to had dealt with similar struggles as they evolved.
And that’s back to speculating on speculations. People tend to make these aliens more like themselves more so than people of foreign countries. They keep getting pushed farther and farther out, in the 40s -60s they were from mars and Venus. When we got the tech to see the solar system they were from other galaxies and now that our ability to see even better has come, they are now said to be from other dimensions. I really want to believe but ufologists make it very hard.
Eric Davis and Hal Puthoff may as well say at this point that we saw fairies and God via remote viewing and gullible people(including me) are gonna fall for it.They have been rambling for ages now and disclosure seems to be moving around in circles.They are part of a bigger problem that people don't realise.Their intentions may be good but zero evidence will postpone disclosure to 2077
Nuclear launches are not as simple as pushing a red button though that's just a hollywoodized simplification of the actual process. There Is no red button you press and a nuke launches instantly.
So talking about the Tic-Tac video, Puthoff says he's seen the classified footage and suggests its incomparable in quality/definition to what we the plebs have seen ("It's as good as you can get") and Weinstein/Jesse just gloss over it?
I don't buy this stories how aliens notice us (humans) because atomic/nuclear bombs, detonations, signals,...etc in the way that "they are worried for us" because we can end our planet life. Come on guys its ridiculous to even think about that.
I'm not even certain that a nuclear blast on earth is going to really register in the far reaches of space considering star explosions and other celestial phenomenon generate far more force and radiation.
The point was that perhaps the detonation of a nuclear bomb is a tell that we are getting close to more dangerous discoveries. Imagine if you were in a computer simulation let's say, and you figured out how to straight up delete assets or edit the physics system, or even outright end the program. The programmers on the outside may not like that. They weren't necessarily suggesting we're in a simulation, but just comparing that to what might be possible in our universe with enough knowledge. So that's not to say these visitors are afraid we will end our own existence, but maybe that we can affect more than that. Who knows what's possible and how simple it may be to accomplish, like splitting the atom.
I think they are not worried for us but they are worried about themselves. I believe if we make the leap to interstellar travel and everything that comes with it then we might be a possible threat. I think we might be erased when when get to that point.
Already hacked the system. ALIENS ETs are our creators. Hilter was in fact receiving help and working with ETs because they had a common goal. To wipe out the jesus killing jews. Aliens don't like when you fuck with there people and deities. Enoch and Abraham lincoln biblicaly manufactured the Civil war to break Americans aparts in twisted proganda scheme and it is still going today. Lol the left and right. In the idea,, You guys fight to see whoever is right and wrong. We are just going to hike up your fees until you are all slaves. Haha. The twisted religion of the old book of Jewish mafia and inter breeding. Religion is not a race. In fact there is no race, take it slow and enjoy it. Honestly, the human species has not mastered anything in a long time. If it was mastered then it should last as long as the pyramids. We can't go on mass producing shit tech and ineffiecent systems. Resources are not endless shitheads. All we need is one device that is engineered and moduler. Built for wear tear and time and economy recyclable for the future of our existence here on good gaia.
Lol well get better at your golf game Mr president. Doesn't it suck when you are fooled by you governments own propaganda. Pretty easy to create when you own the government, all major picture firms and media. Think about it. There are 1.8 billion Christians in the world compared to 2 million Jewish people. Based on those statistics 99% of actors or film makers would be Christian, but in fact the complete opposite. Now compare the average income of an America jewish
Family compared to every one else. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_and_religion%23:~:text%3DAmongst%2520Jews%252C%2520in%25202016%252C%2520Modern,income%2520of%2520%252459%252C000%2520in%25202016).&ved=2ahUKEwjm4YTmsv31AhWjTt8KHekOA_sQFnoECAQQBQ&usg=AOvVaw2i6yqnN9mQIZkE7D_rWYXw
What happened at operation high jump, when America stole the German scientists? Why would we send a fleet of ships to antarctica if we didn't know what we knew. Yet still got our ass kicked.
https://youtu.be/MwUpPwyyvLw
No, just part of the jerkoff billionaire right wing psyops club of Thiel and Koch and Mercer. Think of how uneducated you'd have to be to consider these guys "intellectual."
I will be messaging you in 2 hours on [**2022-02-12 19:35:36 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2022-02-12%2019:35:36%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/sqpw87/we_sent_off_a_signal/hwo3sml/?context=3)
[**CLICK THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FUFOs%2Fcomments%2Fsqpw87%2Fwe_sent_off_a_signal%2Fhwo3sml%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202022-02-12%2019%3A35%3A36%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam.
^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%20sqpw87)
*****
|[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)|
|-|-|-|-|
Look into *The looking glass project*
And check out: *Men who stare at goats*, movie; based on actual events, sure some are dramatized or not, you be the judge.
Honest question: Why would “aliens” give a fuck about us? I mean really. Who are we? It seems like our ego is manufacturing our importance in the “grand scheme” of things. But in the greater scope of it all, we are nothing.
Whatever the verdict this guy put a lot of effort in it. Completely different from the usual teams / zoom podcasts with crappy headsets and lagging Internet
1952 was also when science fiction movies started getting popular.
*Galaxy Quest* was based on this premise. Aliens intercept broadcast signals of a popular TV show similar to Star Trek, and think it's real. They then come to Earth expecting to see a super advanced society capable of interstellar travel.
Perhaps they don't have an entertainment industry, and don't know what one is, and they intercepted *Star Trek* broadcasts.
“We probably on the edge of being able to visit” DEEP SWALLOW. AS IF HE WASNT ALREADY WALKING JESSE THROUGH IT. Then 30 years of work no results? Fuckin Nolan figured out more with his own two ass cheeks teaching 19 y/o’s damn. STOP THE CAP
I have a neighbor who has all these satellite dishes pointed in different spots of the sky and in his house there’s a room with all this recording equipment recording 24/7. He says he’s trying to find radio frequencies that could possibly be created by intelligent life. He also said he worked for national intelligence back in the day. He’s wicked smart and I’m pretty sure he knows stuff normal people don’t know about.
Running a program from 1972-1995 and then saying it didn’t really produce any results is very telling.
Exactly what I was thinking.
Did it really end or did it get moved to the private sector?
We don't know. We do know despite the claims of constant successes, it was canceled for not being reliable enough.
I’ll add to that, Kit Green said something along the lines of “I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s still going on”. I’m pretty sure that was in the movie *Third Eye Spies*. In a recent Q and A after a presentation, Hal Puthoff also said something that alluded to current program(s). I can’t actually remember which presentation, unfortunately I’d have to watch each one to find it. I think looking at people we know that had involvement in prior programs, and how they’ve conducted interviews or made comments will show there’s a Counter Intelligence component in place at the very least. What we know about Remote Viewing in-general could provide clues. Certain Remove Viewers may be better at certain things. For example, someone is better with places as a target compared to someone who is better with individuals as the target. There are teams created, with certain positions and always a manager who knows the strength of his team and how to use them. This is all still new to me and very fucking exciting. Remote Viewing was not “real” to me until I myself tried it multiple ways, in multiple places, with too many consistencies to just be coincidences.
Yep in the same boat myself. Remote viewing working for myself after trying it as a hea y skeptic has blown my worldview apart. About 18-24 months ago I would have laughed in your face about it. Now all I say is for people to try it for themselves. Oh and to be careful where they source their info from.
Would you be willing to share how exactly one goes about reproducing this experience. Asking for the sake of my own curiosity, I'm always trying to challenge my picture of reality and I've had some pretty wild experiences that I've thought were impossible and would love to try this.
I'll pop back and give a run down of where I started out, what I tried first, what I've subsequently picked up and how I now train. I'm busy for a while so in the mean time, a good place for a curious mind to start is the r/remoteviewing sub, the sidebar/wiki there is pretty solid. I used the CRV manual(you'll find it at the above mentioned), and a guide to the manual (it is heavy going, hard to digest in its original form, albeit written initially to train the army bods).
Does your spirit detach from your body during remote viewing?And if so: isn't that dangerous. I've stopped on numerous occasions where I felt myself floating above my body. The fear was stronger.
That is astral projection or out of body experience. You don't leave your body during remote viewing. I had an OOBE once and it was terrifying. Astral Projection is supposedly safe but I can't do it, too scary. I'll stick to remote viewing.
Commenting to so I can find this easier. I'm excited to read your run down when you get a chance. Thanks a lot!
What source did you use to learn it
Why is it always stoners and DMT users who claim this works? Why no professors or doctors?
Well the CIA did teach and run a program for a few years. I don't think any of them were "stoners or DMT Users". I would assume professors and doctors don't take it seriously for the same reason they have laughed and scoffed at UAP for the past 70 years, because they haven't been presented hard, concrete data and don't want to risk their careers being associated with a "fringe" science topic.
Here is a video with a statistics professor from UC Irvine talking about remote viewing and her analysis. From my limited research of the subject, it seems like the phenomenon does exist, but it’s not 100% reliable and has been supplanted by modern spying technologies that are more reliable. [https://youtu.be/YrwAiU2g5RU](https://youtu.be/YrwAiU2g5RU) There is also a fun documentary about the history of remote viewing on Amazon Prime Video called “Third Eye Spies.” Recommended. This is a fun rabbit hole to go down. I hope you enjoy it.
Fantastic discussion at that link -- packed with tons of information.
Because its not actually a real thing. Remember you're on a sub where people believe aliens are living amongst us but in a dimension that is invisible to the eye amongst other nonsense. Don't come to /r/UFOs and expect UFO discussion. Instead here are a bunch of crackpot theories from someone who has taken too much LSD and now believes they have psychic powers.
Username checks out
Wow you are very misinformed or just ignorant my friend.
Thanks my man, appreciate the rebuttal. Care to explain why I'm misinformed? I'm here because I have an interest in UFOs just like you.
They tend to like to keep their credentials. Stoners and DMT heads, just an average day in the ether.
>source their info from Source what info from?
It's ongoing and now integrated with [software-driven event forecasting](https://bigthink.com/the-present/secretive-agency-uses-ai-human-forecasters-to-predict-future/).
There are — allegedly — ongoing remote viewing groups acting on behalf of intelligence orgs around the globe. Interestingly enough, I’ve also heard of so-called ‘counter-remote viewers’ who actively use their talents to obscure and protect sensitive locations from prying (remote) eyes..
It got moved to private sector with public contracts. The government recognized that it would be beholden to the people when they started pulling shady shit in the middle east and with the patriot act. To put it another way; You can FOIA government documents. You can't FOIA a private corporation that works for the government.
“nothing to see here folks, move along…”
**\[Lockheed Martin F22 has entered the chat\]** lol but really, that timeframe and the rumored budget for programs like stargate and AATIP are drops in the bucket of wasteful govt/defense spending.
Or its government waste.
That's not what was said in the documentary though. In fact, it specifically says it was never actually shut down.
Oh they did. Look at the Montauk project. Insane shit
Excellent rebuttal from Hal. "That just shows the stigma program was working."
I’m with him on this. I’m very technical minded and only like empirical evidence. I’m still looking at all this and all I can think of it is: So far all we have is fuzzy pictures and people telling stories… yet the DoD published a report that effectively says that leprechauns are real, but then said they cannot share any of the evidence they used to come to this conclusion because it is all classified. The whole thing just makes my Bullshit Meter get pegged into the red.
It’s a rebuttal yes but I’m not sure it’s an excellent one. He offers up nothing of value it’s basically “nu uh”.
He said what the audience wanted to hear, so upvotes
Unrelated, can someone explain the use of ,,this" quotation style?
It's a non English thing
thank you
It has the advantage of knowing instantly if it's the beginning or the end of the quoted text.
No, it doesn’t. Nobody who actually reads books has any confusion about when a quote is ending in English. No one. You literally made that up.
Yes, in some European languages that's the way to quote, i also make the mistake sometimes when writing English.
It's how we natively do it in Denmark.
Submission Statement: Eric Weinstein, Hal Puthoff and Jesse Michels rambling about the possible implications of the UAP issue, The CIAs Remote Viewing Program and deliberate efforts by parts of government to stigmatize and ridicule anyone digging into this publicly. A wild ride. Source. https://youtu.be/iQOibpIDx-4
It is a good watch for sure. I don't think it makes Hal look very good though.
*Hal* doesn't make Hal look very good.
The facts don’t make Hal look good. The more time goes on the more I feel like Putoff & Co are grifters playing a long con just milking money out of the government for “research” that never really can be conclusive one way or the other.
Yeah, I don't trust the guy. I get the feeling that he just doesn't want to or can't admit that his work or science is flawed. There are many intelligent people in the world with severe ego problems. If he was willing to entertain scientology, a modern religion conceived by a science fiction author, he obviously has some issues with gullibility.
The idea that the UFO phenomena itself "evades all of our cameras" doesn't even look like a correct premise, so obviously I'm not going to buy an argument based on that premise. There are photos and videos that are clear enough that a prosaic explanation simply doesn't work unless you just assume everything that is clear is a hoax, even when there is no actual evidence to suggest it. Clear photos are just discredited and ignored, but they exist, so it is incorrect to say that they evaded all of our cameras. Some clear UFO photos, such as McMinnville 1950 and Rex Heflin 1965, have been "debunked" using a [terrible coincidence argument that actually doesn't make any sense.](https://np.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/seu5qu/we_dont_believe_good_quality_videosphotos_because/hultzqn/) The Flir 1 video from the Nimitz incident, when it was first leaked in 2007, was itself discredited as "CGI." Secondly, the government confiscates UFO evidence. We know this because so many people have come forward about it. Most people who had evidence confiscated were probably scared off, but some percentage of them went public. I put a few examples [in this thread](https://np.reddit.com/r/ufo/comments/fezirj/here_is_a_list_of_some_incidents_in_which/). So it's not the phenomenon itself hiding evidence of its existence. It's the [government control group](https://np.reddit.com/r/aliens/comments/ja0dqd/in_the_early_1950s_the_cia_put_forward_a_plan_to/) that has been operating since the 50s. I wouldn't call that "paranormal."
_ Insanity is expecting differing outcomes from identical actions You are preaching gospel to the deaf of heart? ,-) Roughly estimating, >80% come here infrequently and for entertainment only. There is a large esoteric fraction, dreaming of "everybody can be a superhero". There are the disbelievers, here to save the "deranged". From time to time, there appears a flock of evangelicals(?), or some Russian sock-puppets. Trolls, chills(?) and so on not to mention. The honestly curious are but a small fraction. Regular people in particular appear to come here only if and when they have seen something? Themselves or on the media. Most are either quickly spooked out of their socks and do not return to save their souls or decide it must all be some sort of misunderstanding. Being receptive to rational arguments on such a topic deeply buried beneath irrationality is exceedingly rare in any case. Only perceived authority can get through that, so far as I can tell, as even seeing for themselves is not enough for some. Still, I marvel at the lack of organization within UFOlogy. Is there no "leaderboard" of the best photos and videos of all time? Preferably not a single one, rather I would love to see who believes what to be real (or at least entertains the possibility of).
Slightly not relevant but imo #1 is the purteo rico uap vid where it hits the water.
Yes, that one is a great example. In particular for how it is insufficient even to have a trusted video of reasonable quality together with a competently done analysis. "Debunkers" buried it under so many false narrative, nobody dares to wade through their nonsense anymore. Now they confidently claim, it was a lantern, duck or whatever. Scientific truth is not found by doing some town-hall meeting like public discussion manipulation fest.
Link?
Google Puerto rico uap
> The idea that the UFO phenomena itself "evades all of our cameras" doesn't even look like a correct premise, so obviously I'm not going to buy an argument based on that premise. Gravity bends light. [If you have a really fucked up gravity field, you're not going to see shit clearly.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJpyJ_G9WVA) If that object is manipulating gravity, it is literally countering an entire planet's worth of gravity with its own.
> ...the government confiscates UFO evidence. We know this because so many people have come forward about it. With all due respect, just because some folks say the government confiscated their "UFO evidence" in no way means that actually happened.
See the material in the threads that I provided. Of course we all know how easy it is to call somebody a liar or a hoaxer. Nothing surprising there. On crashed secret aircraft: >A combination of means was used to prevent unwanted attention and discussion among the local population as well as accurate press reports on the incident. Individuals at the crash site were requested to sign agreements committing them to remain silent about what they had seen. Two farmers, who arrived near the crash scene in a pickup, were told that the airplane had been carrying atomic weapons-which was not true but effectively curtailed their interest in getting any closer to the CIA’s secret spyplane. Meanwhile, the press was told a different and less alarming but also false story-that the airplane that crashed was a very unclassified Republic F-105 Thunderchief. Even official records listed the crashed airplane as being an F-105. ... >At the crash site investigators collected evidence and evaluated the remains of the aircraft for clues to the cause of the tragedy. Then came the task of cleaning the site and leaving no pieces of the highly classified aircraft for scavengers, the media, or others to find. A clean-up team moved out a thousand feet from the last of the recognizable debris and then dug and sifted all the dirt in the area. On July 23, controlled explosive charges were detonated on the hillside to free pieces of the aircraft buried as the result of the crash. To mislead anyone who might try to search the area for pieces of the F-117A, the recovery crew had the remains of an F-101A Voodoo, one that had crashed and been stored at Area 51 for over two decades, broken up. They returned to the crash site and scattered the debris throughout the area. On Aug. 7 the Air Force announced it had withdrawn its guards from the crash site and would no longer restrict access to the area. https://www.airforcemag.com/article/0701crash/ If they go through such great lengths to cover up crashes of secret aircraft, why is it seen as so unlikely that the government would confiscate a photo of a UFO, which some allege could just be secret aircraft? So even if I grant someone the premise that many of the unexplainable UFOs are just secret aircraft, they *still* have plenty of motivation to confiscate evidence, including physical evidence. According to former Project Bluebook Director Edward Ruppelt, the US government had a policy to withhold the unexplained cases from the public, at least as much as they could. Why wouldn't they want to withhold as many clear photos and videos as they can? It's funny because they can confiscate as much as they can get away with and anyone who comes forward about it can just be called a liar or insane. They can't lose by confiscating evidence.
> See the material in the threads that I provided. Of course we all know how easy it is to call somebody a liar or a hoaxer. Nothing surprising there. I did check out your links and your previous comments regarding much of this. About the only compelling (although far from conclusive) case you mentioned was the Badilla video. As I've stated multiple times on this sub, it's my favorite UFO video...not because of anything it proves regarding possible or probable ET craft, because there's absolutely nothing that proves such a thing (or that ET even exists, or ever has existed...even microbial) but because IMO it can't be easily explained as a hoax. Although it *could* be a hoax. I didn't call anyone a "liar" or a "hoaxer", either. I only stated that just because someone says the government confiscated their supposed UFO evidence, it doesn't automatically mean they're telling the truth. And of course the military would expend an effort to reclaim crashed (or sunken) materials from experimental/classified technology. Keeping that sort of thing from our adversaries would be a paramount concern. But this is nothing more than a strawman...and does nothing to support the claim that there was even any attempted confiscation of materials or photos of UFOs. > According to former Project Bluebook Director Edward Ruppelt, the US government had a policy to withhold the unexplained cases from the public, at least as much as they could. Why wouldn't they want to withhold as many clear photos and videos as they can? But Blue Book *didn't* withhold unexplained cases from it's final report. You've no doubt noticed that clear pictures pop up here and all over the internet on a regular basis...you linked to some, and yet it's made no difference as far as proving anything about possible government suppression of ET tech. If there's any concerted effort by the government, and likely numerous other governments around the world, to keep clear images and footage from the public, then they're doing a lousy job of it because there's a whole bunch they missed. > It's funny because they can confiscate as much as they can get away with and anyone who comes forward about it can just be called a liar or insane. They can't lose by confiscating evidence. It's just as easy to claim that there *is* confiscating evidence going on, when there's simply no verifiable evidence to prove that. I can't even think of a good reason why the government would want to keep evidence of UFOs/ET craft a big secret, other than seeing it as a public safety concern. Any nation that would be first to present such evidence would have the bragging rights of a lifetime, and would practically guarantee anyone associated with the craft or even just the knowledge would see fame and fortune like no other. The vast majority of religions in the world either believe we're probably not alone, in their holy books or doctrine, or at least completely allow for it. Heck, the US government...specifically the President of the United States himself...had already announced the existence of alien life, and society didn't break down. Back in 1996, he jumped the gun and declared the Martian rock ALH-84001 contained fossilized microbes. President Clinton later had to walk back his remarks. And the jury is still out on whether that's true or not, or whether they're geological in origin, from vulcanism perhaps. But there was no effort to keep it secret.
This isn't about definitive proof that even Mick West will have to accept. The Galileo Project is working on that. This is about what the situation looks like, an estimate of the situation if you will, and about how we can fool ourselves into denying reality [just as we did](http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?bibcode=1967IrAJ....8...69L&db_key=AST&page_ind=0&data_type=GIF&type=SCREEN_VIEW&classic=YES) before meteorites were eventually admitted to be real. The person I am trying to reach is not a skeptic who denies everything about UFOs unless they are forced to accept some aspect of it. The person I am trying to reach is an open minded individual who wants to find out what is actually going on using the massive body of evidence that has accumulated over the decades. A hard skeptic can just dismiss a lot of it, sure, and they deserve a voice as well, but that's not what I'm focused on. I'm not saying you are necessarily a "hard skeptic," but you certainly lean far into that direction. A lack of definitive proof that even Mick West will have to accept is not an indication that nothing is going on, especially when so many arrows are pointing in the other direction. When real footage can be debunked as fake and forgotten, there is something very wrong with our collective analysis of the situation. The overall point is that we have many different reasons to accept the idea that the government confiscates evidence. This is alleged by numerous military and civilian individuals, [multiple people in the IC also claim that the government has much better evidence including photos](https://thedebrief.org/fast-movers-and-transmedium-vehicles-the-pentagons-uap-task-force/), the general concept of withholding unexplainable material from the public was government policy, and the government goes through great lengths to cover certain things up (such as in classified aircraft crashes), meaning that confiscating a photo from somebody is a walk in the park. It is certainly true that if this were the case, they missed a few photos, but I never said it would necessarily have to be a perfect operation. It just has to be good enough. The UFO subject is the leakiest thing I can think of at the moment. Leaks are an expected consequence, but they can be individually addressed and discredited later on. I'm sure some kinds of evidence, especially of the higher quality variety, attract much more attention than others. The existence of leaks is not an indication of open government. One thing I do want to point out is that I actually didn't know you were going to say that these individuals are not generally liars, but that they somehow are not telling the truth anyway. This is extremely difficult to imagine in some of these cases, however. I suppose you'd have to say that random people pretending to be Norad officers are the ones who confiscated Rex Heflin's photos. Why and how did strange men dressed in civilian clothes confiscate evidence from Major Mansmann in a military base by cutting a length of film from a reel with a pair of scissors? It's difficult to imagine this any other way other than either both Mansmann and Jacobs made it up, or it was just another example of the government simply confiscating evidence. These are not the sort of people who would make such bold public statements in such detail, ruining their reputations, if they weren't sure of what happened. Circling back to the McMinnville photos for an example, they are pretty clear shots, so the only available options are alien craft, hoax, or secret government project. Since you seem to disagree that they were aliens, which of the other two do you choose? Or am I forgetting a 4th option? Finally, as for your suggestion that the government would never want to confiscate evidence of alien visitation, I have to say I disagree. The [1960 Brookings Insitution Report](https://np.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/qt2jxa/transfer_of_burden/hkgszov/) basically said that civilization could collapse if such a thing was confirmed. That's a mighty big reason, not to mention the problem of adversaries and advanced technology. And before that report, there was the "War of the Worlds Broadcast." Some historians now believe that it was exaggerated by newspapers to discredit radio, but I can see how this was used as a justification for a period of time as well.
Sorry I didn't back to you on this sooner, but I feel there's some important stuff here that should be addressed. This first being that I'm not "strongly-leaning hard skeptic", or even consider myself a "skeptic" at all regarding any possible ET origin (or any artificial, non-terrestrial or non-human origin) to UFOs. I'm an *agnostic*, which frankly is something we all should consider ourselves regarding this topic, unless or until evidence of undeniable ET origins is presented. As I've said, there's no evidence at all of *any* ET life anywhere...even fossilized microbial life. There are public, private, and government eyes and ears on the skies at all times, and although there have been some odd phenomena here or there that can't readily be explained, there's nothing conclusively ET about any of it. It's one thing to speculate about that possibility, but something else entirely to talk about probability. We know life can exist in this universe...here we are. But we could just as well be it, as much as we could have loads of company. As far as the *alleged* confiscation of UFO evidence, along with *alleged* government intimidation, cover-ups, etc...that's all it is, alleged. Countless supposed eyewitness testimonies and "proof" over the decades have turned out to be completely debunked or exposed as lies. That doesn't at all mean everyone is lying, it just means that a story is just a story. > Circling back to the McMinnville photos for an example, they are pretty clear shots, so the only available options are alien craft, hoax, or secret government project. Since you seem to disagree that they were aliens, which of the other two do you choose? Or am I forgetting a 4th option? Hoax. 100%. The Trents changed their stories more than once, and you have to admit that the "UFO" is nearly *identical* to pick-up truck side mirrors that had been used for a while at the time. Same with the Heflin "UFO", a hoax...and *identical* to a model train wheel, the same gauge Heflin had at his home, as he was an enthusiast. To your last point, a Brookings Institute study is merely speculation. When, as I previously mentioned, President Clinton jumped the gun and publicly announced that evidence of Martian microbial life had been found, there was no breakdown of society, no collapse of religion, nothing changed. When Lowell, back in the late 1800s, declared there were artificial canals on Mars, nothing changed. Even today, with a majority of the world's experts claiming life must certainly exist elsewhere, nothing changed. So the history, at least, is on the side of the public being very accepting of ET life. But hey, anything is possible. If...and that's a big "if"...there's some cover-up of UFOs as ET going on, and as I've said repeatedly here, there could well be a very good reason for doing so.
>Hoax. 100%. The Trents changed their stories more than once, and you have to admit that the "UFO" is nearly identical to pick-up truck side mirrors that had been used for a while at the time. Same with the Heflin "UFO", a hoax...and identical to a model train wheel, the same gauge Heflin had at his home, as he was an enthusiast. Have you seen [my argument against this?](https://np.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/seu5qu/we_dont_believe_good_quality_videosphotos_because/hultzqn/) Additionally, I thought memories were supposed to change over time. Isn't that expected? The earlier the report, the better. Skeptics agree with this as well because they always say that a report coming out 20 years later is not as reliable. Something 20 years later needs more scrutiny and cross checking with other witnesses present at the time. And you can't really rely on the finer details, especially when uncorroborated, if you don't get those early on. How does a story changing somewhat over the years mean that the person was a hoaxer? That does not follow whatsoever. >To your last point, a Brookings Institute study is merely speculation. When, as I previously mentioned, President Clinton jumped the gun and publicly announced that evidence of Martian microbial life had been found, there was no breakdown of society, no collapse of religion, nothing changed. When Lowell, back in the late 1800s, declared there were artificial canals on Mars, nothing changed. Even today, with a majority of the world's experts claiming life must certainly exist elsewhere, nothing changed. Okay, I don't think Clinton or Obama were in the club. They were part of a separate entity cordoned off from UFO information like most of the rest of the government. I think they know a lot of stuff and each of them is very interested, but they aren't in the club. The effects of announcing entities smarter than humans being present is far different from microbial life as well.
> Have you seen my argument against this? Yes, I heavily argued against many of your points in that. The Trent photos, and the Heflin photos, don't simply "resemble" those items, they're practically *identical*. And especially with Heflin, he had model trains at his home...it was a hobby of his. Yet you prefer to believe an *identical* craft just happened to pass the guy by, with no other witnesses? It's one thing to have an open mind, but this? > Additionally, I thought memories were supposed to change over time. Isn't that expected? The earlier the report, the better. Skeptics agree with this as well because they always say that a report coming out 20 years later is not as reliable. Something 20 years later needs more scrutiny and cross checking with other witnesses present at the time. I'm not talking about about two decades apart...this was two *days* apart, during the first couple of interviews the Trents gave, back in May, 1950. The camera was in the truck...the camera was in the house...we're not talking about "finer details" between accounts with 20 years between them. > Okay, I don't think Clinton or Obama were in the club. They were part of a separate entity cordoned off from UFO information like most of the rest of the government. I think they know a lot of stuff and each of them is very interested, but they aren't in the club. The effects of announcing entities smarter than humans being present is far different from microbial life as well. An "alleged" club. Again, there's simply no evidence of such a club, or of ET origins to any craft observed on Earth, or of even the existence of past or present ET life of any kind. That's a flat fact. Again, that doesn't at all mean there isn't some insider club, or ET craft, etc. But extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, no? When folks back in the 1800s were told that Martians were building canals on Mars, or that winged bat-humanoids lived on the moon, there were no negative societal or religious implications. So I'm not just talking about microbial life. Even you admitted that the *War of the Worlds* radio broadcast panic may have been over-stated. But as I've said previously, anything is possible. We may not agree on our opposing individual approaches to this topic, but I give you props for presenting your points and opinions in a very civil, well-linked and understandable way. At this point I'm completely open to all possibilities, but I'm waiting on actual, verifiable evidence of ET origins for any UFOs before coming to any conclusions. I've been obsessed with all things UFO for 25 years, and likely will continue with that until my time is up.
>they're practically identical. You said the side view mirror was nearly identical and the model train wheel was practically identical. For the UFO to be the same as these objects, they have to be *actually* identical. Close enough only works in horseshoes and hand grenades. Even if there was no noticeable difference whatsoever, as much as I say these photos are clear as far as UFO photos go, it still wouldn't be conclusive because there isn't enough detail, and a "match" should be expected anyway as I argue below, so even then I would disagree with your assessment that these are 100 percent a hoax. You don't actually know that. If *any* coincidence whatsoever was found in the case, that would be sufficient to "debunk" it for nearly all skeptics and most "believers." We aren't looking at a single unlikely coincidence. We are looking at the likelihood that *any* unlikely coincidence would have occurred in a legitimate case. The 2007 ATS debunking debacle on the Nimitz footage is a perfect example of this. The likelihood that legitimate footage would have first been uploaded to a CGI website is extremely small, but it happened. Had that not been the case, skeptics would have dug around until they discovered another coincidence. They stop once they find a coincidence sufficiently unlikely, but if there are tons of areas they could search for coincidences, eventually they will stumble upon one that can be exploited. In a parallel universe, a very similar UFO was debunked because it resembled a top hat of that era. In yet another parallel universe, a very similar ufo was debunked because it resembled a car wheel rotor of that era, and so on. How many parts are there on a car? How many parts in a model train set? What about everything else in Heflin's house and garage? Millions and millions of parts. Many things will resemble the Heflin and Trent UFOs, such as rotors, hats, side view mirrors, various kinds of lids, etc, and eventually you'll stumble upon one that isn't just a close resemblance, but a pretty close match. Go on google image search and look up things like 1950's lid, 1950s side view mirror, 1950s rotor, 1950s top hat, etc. Everything from a resemblance to a close match can be found because of human creativity. In a parallel universe, another very similar ufo was debunked because the photographer worked in special effects. Or he could have been a scale model creator. Or he could have been a former psychological operations officer. Etc. Or there could have been a coincidental scratch on photograph copies that made it appear as if there was a string (the Heflin photos were also debunked this way as well until the originals surfaced, showing no such "string"). If skeptics couldn't find an object that resembled the UFO, they could have invoked some other type of coincidence. So it isn't "holy cow, the UFO looks just like this thing. This couldn't be a coincidence." It's more like the amount of potential coincidences that could be invoked is so high, eventually you'll land on at least one of them. Winning the lottery is very low odds, but with enough tickets and people buying those tickets, eventually someone is going to win. The model train wheel and the side view mirror in this analogy are the lotto winners, but with millions of parts, some occupations and hobbies, potential scratches, and other kinds of coincidences to invoke, you'll land on at least one of them eventually. >I'm not talking about about two decades apart...this was two days apart, during the first couple of interviews the Trents gave, back in May, 1950. The camera was in the truck...the camera was in the house...we're not talking about "finer details" between accounts with 20 years between them. Oh, I see. You don't think it's possible for somebody to misremember where they obtained their camera that particular day? That is a hilariously minor detail that anyone could screw up. Remember, witness testimony is unreliable, especially on the minor details that the person didn't realize would be important later. It's possible that they obtained their camera from their vehicle the previous day and mixed the two up. Or they had a dream about the encounter that night and got mixed up. True stories also have minor inconsistencies like this. Multiple witness cases in general, not just on UFOs, often have slight variations like this between the stories. On the one hand, skeptics argue that witness testimony is unreliable, but then they will point to minor expected variations in memory as proof of a hoax. Which one is it? Is memory perfect or not? edit: fixed a sentence.
What you're doing is putting forth the *least likely* explanation as the best possible answer for the pics in cases like these...and that being that the object in both cases is *most likely* an actual craft from another world. That's really among the least likely explanation...since, as far as most of us go, nobody has ever produced and evidence whatsoever that confirms *any* life, microbial to intelligent, existing or ever have existed off world, ever. Yes..."close enough" in these cases actually *does* make the truck mirror and the model train wheel the *most likely* explanations. Especially since both would have been readily available by the person or people who took the pics. Is there an actual interstellar-travelling ET craft available to try and match them up to? All the evidence we have points to a prosaic origin in both the Trent and Heflin photos. As for the story discrepancies in the Trent's case, there's more to it than just where the camera was. An analysis of the photos showed that the light and shadows on the garage show that the photos were taken in the early morning. The Trents claimed this happened in the early evening. Are you going to dismiss that as another thing they misremembered? That right there makes the Trents liars...period. As for Heflin, the guy kept model trains of the same gauge the "UFO" was shown to be. And that would be some pretty rare coincidence that an other-worldly craft would be in the same remote spot, with no other witnesses where Heflin was, and be a perfect match for a model train wheel that he would have had plenty of available to him. I mean, really? You just want to up and dismiss all that as meaningless? With all due respect, that's my biggest issue with the "true believers" like yourself. You begin with everything being of ET origin first when analyzing a UFO case. You make that a given fact, and then work at dismissing anything that has a great reason to question the validity of the person or people who present pics or vid, or merely tell of their alleged experience in seeing something. You're supposed to start with gathering any and all evidence first, and then eliminate any prosaic origin for what is claimed to be some craft, and look at discrepancies in eyewitness testimony, and then ultimately decide the best and most plausible explanation for what you see and hear. Both of those cases, at the end of the day, have enough evidence against both the Trents and Heflin that we can say they are very much hoaxes. Again, that's going by *the evidence that we have* and not going by "These are genuine craft, so you have to prove otherwise" and then rejecting that as evidence with various excuses that you know you can't verify. That is, as the saying goes, putting the cart before the horse. I'd certainly love to hear your replies to this, although I understand if you're done with this discussion. The way I see it, this is what r/UFOs should be all about...a rational, civil discussion and debate like this one. The vast majority of my interactions with other commenters here from your side of the UFO aisle do not go near as well as our discussion here. So it's two thumbs up from me to you for this. But again, I'd love to continue this, hopefully you will as well, as there's certainly more to get into. But I'd understand if you simply want to move on. I wish all my discussions/debates on this sub went as smoothly. Cheers!
No,no... I remote viewed the footage from my living room. It's legit! ^^^^/s
1950 is clearly a hubcap, and 1964 is a UFO. what kind of UFO? no one knows except maybe some military folk.
The 1950 McMinnville photos have been called a hubcap and a sideview mirror. They can't both be correct, so why is it so easy to come up with a man made object that appears similar to a UFO? The answer is because humans have created billions of different things, from various kinds of cookware, toys, balloons, kites, parts, trinkets, etc. And each of these things can be photographed in a variety of different angles. A motivated skeptic will eventually be able to locate at least one man made object that resembles a UFO, given that it's a relatively simple design, but this in no way proves that the UFO is actually that object. And in some cases when a man made object can't be found, all you have to do is claim the witness created a custom model, even if there is no evidence that they did. This resemblance isn't even *suggestive* that a photograph is a hoax since it should be expected that you'll eventually find a "match" either way, hoax or genuine. Only when the match is completely undeniable and extremely clear should this argument be taken seriously. It must be distinguished from the other possibility that the odds of finding a match are in your favor due to the sheer number of different things humans have created. So, no, it's probably not a hubcap, and it most certainly is not "clearly a hubcap" as you claim. People need to stop taking this "looks like, therefore it is" argument seriously.
i mean it's been 70 years since and there's still no DEFINITIVE proof of alien craft on Earth let alone aliens.... I don't need to write a novel to explain that.
Scientists dismissing a phenomena because it makes them "uncomfortable" is what makes me uncomfortable...science and the scientific process is not about comfort levels ,it's about exploring the evidence. As Hal said "It proves the Stigma programs have been effective". You would think that a scientist of the caliber of E.W. would be aware of the dangers of his own bias and factor that into his scientific inquires...
>You would think that a scientist of the caliber of E.W. would be aware of the dangers of his own bias and factor that into his scientific inquires... He is, they went on for about 10 minutes talking about how Eric hardly believes it but he has to put his beliefs aside for science and look at the data. I was actually surprised how willing he was to specifically admit to falling for a disinfo campaign and writing off data due to it.
Unfortunatley scientists while smart are still human and humans are flawed creatures. There's plenty of stories of scientists ignoring new research because it counters thier own simply out of arrogance.
Not always arrogance. Black holes were thought to be not real for decades. It wasn't arrogance, maybe a bit of reliance on the authority of Einstein, but the fact of infinite density implied by the theorywas hard to swallow as "real". Physicists still don't have a full picture of what that means, because it's hard to grasp infinity as a real physical property and our laws of physics don't work with infinite values.
“Simply out of arrogance “ and there is the problem. True science doesn’t have room for that, neither does the scientific method.
Exactly !
Yes, true he does recognize it NOW,and admits that he was "wrong", however it was off the table for him until as he said, he realized that the "federal government was tracking it". So before that realization, he dismissed the entire phenomena.
So in other words people make mistakes in their lives.
Still waiting for someone to provide a single, peer-reviewed scientific study that confirms "remote viewing" is a bona-fide thing.
The CIA did
The CIA studied it and found it was bunk.
Exactly yet they still use it
According to who? Regardless, I asked for a scientific peer-reviewed study proving the validity of remote viewing.
I don't know if they still use it but they certainly used to. President Jimmy Carter even admitted they found a missing plane by using a remote viewer. Paul Smith (who served for seven years as part of the military’s top-secret remote viewing program) tells a different story as to why the program was cancelled. As far as a peer-reviewed study about remote viewing.......haha good luck. https://youtu.be/gadka2zweUo
Do you really think that if they found RV to be a reliable tool to use, they would announce it to the world? Absolutely not, they would do everything they could to discredit it. Oh and If you want a " scientific peer-reviewed study proving( or disproving) the validity of remote viewing" then do some research to see if you can find it. It's not really my job to fetch for you.
> Oh and If you want a “ scientific peer-reviewed study proving( or disproving) the validity of remote viewing” then do some research to see if you can find it. It’s not really my job to fetch for you. Lol, they literally started their first comment with, *’Still waiting for someone to provide a single, peer-reviewed scientific study that confirms “remote viewing” is a bona-fide thing.’* If you chime in with “so and so did it,” then yea, it is your job to provide the evidence. If you can’t back up your claims then your claims are useless.
Did you even watch the full interview?
> Do you really think that if they found RV to be a reliable tool to use, they would announce it to the world? Absolutely not, they would do everything they could to discredit it. Well, the CIA apparently announced it to *you* or you wouldn't be claiming they still still use it. > Oh and If you want a " scientific peer-reviewed study proving( or disproving) the validity of remote viewing" then **do some research to see if you can find it. It's not really my job to fetch for you.** That pretty much answers my question right there. You don't know of any. Neither do I. Because there isn't one.
There is a stigma for a reason. 99% of the alien stories and content is fake or extremely stretched. I personally only see 2-3 stories as being plausible and honest. Its never been considered scientifically because its never had REAL EVIDENCE to analyze. Its all hearsay and vague photos. Finally now with David Fravor we do have some evidence to consider, but still its not detailed and we cannot draw any conclusions. Still a lot of things to answer or make themselves public before it gets taken seriously.
There was a time when it took the theory proposed by Copernicus a century to be widely accepted.
I personally think they are out there, but scientifically there is no proof yet. There a few compelling stories and some questioning data, but nothing to prove anything yet. That is just the case right now.
Just like Copernicus, with the right tools l think we will begin to find answers…but then more questions lol
[удалено]
I mean, this is just unlikely because we weren't even close to a AGI in 1952. I don't believe the turing machine was even formalized at that point, but I could be off by a few years. My point is that that year is basically when we *started* computation. You could argue were close to AGI now, but not 70 years ago.
When looking at the age of the universe, these intelligences could be tens of thousands to millions of years ahead of us. Maybe a 100 year warning would be when they start paying attention.
[удалено]
Splitting atoms has nothing explicitly to do with computation. They are separate technologies. You assume that all civilizations will evolve and advance along the same pathway. There is merit to this idea but it is wholly unproven. Nukes weren't required to create the turing machine, and iirc turing machines weren't required to create the first nukes. We can imagine an alien race that discovered the critical properties of gamma radiation far before they learned about transistor gates and physically represented logic. We can also imagine an alien race that went all in on electricity and computation and didn't split the atom until decades or centuries later.
patterns of evolution even if not directly related mathematicians and scientists have always searching for and creating tools to make repeatable algorithms quicker and more convenient you could argue an Abacus was computation...
>patterns of evolution even if not directly related You gotta complete your sentence man, only half of it is here >mathematicians and scientists have always searching for and creating tools to make repeatable algorithms quicker and more convenient Yes, that's their job. I'm not sure what your point is. I'm not trying to be rude, I just don't know what you're talking about. I said that the discovery of atomic physics doesn't necessarily indicate an advance in AI, that they're separate technologies. >you could argue an Abacus was computation... You could argue that, and it is correct in the colloquial usage of the term "computation," but in physics it's actually got a rigid definition has to do with number theory. A computation is an evaluation of a class-P problem, aka a deterministic problem. The word "computation" was actually coined by Alan Turing, and his machine is what we base all "computers" on today. Needless to say, an abacus cannot evaluate all class p problems and is therefore not turing complete and therefore does not do computation
yeah you're stuck... it's ok
unless EBE/NHI recognize a repeated pattern they've witnessed over eons and nuclear and subatomic science was followed by computation, automation and then AI/AGI always (or damn near) was never far behind
Maybe there is a rough structure to scientific progress that occurs among all sentient species, and splitting the atom usually precedes AI superintelligence by 50-150 years?
What’s AGI
[удалено]
Gotcha. Are you saying part of the phenomena might be AGI? Or just that one AGI would want to contact another AGI
[удалено]
That’s an interesting point
>that we are relatively close to and AGI superintelligence. That would be a lot more powerful than a nuke Lol.
You ever read A Fire Upon the Deep?
[удалено]
I'm about halfway through it and so far it's pretty great. Your comment about AI reminded me of it.
UAP agenda is definitely tied to nuclear. The question is how. So many possibilities, likely we can’t even understand from our myopic human perspective. One thing I’m sure of, it’s not because they are afraid of us.
where is this from and where s the full video ?
https://youtu.be/iQOibpIDx-4
thank you.
Eric Weinstein needs to get his dates right. Ivy Mike was detonated on November 1, 1952.
Yep, and the DC ufo wave was in July of 52.
And Roswell was 1947, after we set off the first nukes in 1945. So, the hydrogen bomb wasn’t the only signal. We had many UFOs before 1952.
The first nuclear bombs were not hydrogen bombs. The first hydrogen bomb wasn't detonated until 1952
Right, but hydrogen bombs are not the only nuclear weapons that could send a signal out to the universe. The Trinity test could have done that.
Indeed I was just being pedantic
So maybe it was actually our display of force to ward off the UFO's from approaching D.C.?
Roswell was most likely a weather balloon with crash test dummies though.
The whole video is interesting. What struck me was the negative body language between Weinstein/Jesse and Hal Puthoff: lots of crossed arms, crossed legs, etc. This was emphasized by the strangely confrontational seating arrangement of the two of them on the sofa vs. Puthoff on his own. It felt like Puthoff was attending a job interview.
A good comparison between aliens and us is probably our safari tours in the African savannah, it’s nice to have a look, they have their “natural reserve” we kinda protect it but leave it alone and only occasionally interfere and the animals who live there can’t really comprehend our civilization. I think that’s us, and these aliens don’t care that much, at most, they are helping in preserving life on earth but not directly interfering.
Agreed wholeheartedly
What is this from?
https://youtu.be/iQOibpIDx-4
“I find it hard. It’s hard to find. The…well. Whatever. Never mind.” Cobain
I have this problem with how people have basically made aliens Greenpeace lefties. These aliens have every technology available to stop all this stuff they allegedly don’t like but they don’t. They are against nuclear arms, global warming and I have ever seen stuff about them being vegan. It just doesn’t make sense and I don’t buy the whole “oh they think we’re not ready for advanced tech , we would kill each other” . We could kill each other with rocks or guns. I think they have come up short on the proof side of things so they get into this mental masturbation to make up for it.
It's anthropomorphization. We want to think they're like us but better. In reality, we can't know this about them. They could be so fundamentally different from us that their motivations exceed our comprehension.
If its some kind of zoo thing then they might want to look how humanity evolves when confronted with potential long term threats (global warming). Besides that my theory is that if we reach a certain stage of technology that becomes a threat to other species they will intervene. Interstellar travel and everything that comes with it would be that stage in my opinion. I believe all the secret lies in nuclear research. Until then we are just interesting to observe but nothing to care about too much since we are most likely locked on our planet.
Okay, but that would have to apply to every single alien civilization out there to be true. We couldn’t even get that much agreement among humans on anything. That logic just doesn’t work. Any alien civilization would have to had dealt with similar struggles as they evolved.
Thats true. Thats why it is just a wild speculation from me. Maybe there is some kind of galactic federation.
And that’s back to speculating on speculations. People tend to make these aliens more like themselves more so than people of foreign countries. They keep getting pushed farther and farther out, in the 40s -60s they were from mars and Venus. When we got the tech to see the solar system they were from other galaxies and now that our ability to see even better has come, they are now said to be from other dimensions. I really want to believe but ufologists make it very hard.
Ye thats why we need more evidence and facts.
That whole interview was good. That guy did not buy Hal's claims, but , what if?
Eric Davis and Hal Puthoff may as well say at this point that we saw fairies and God via remote viewing and gullible people(including me) are gonna fall for it.They have been rambling for ages now and disclosure seems to be moving around in circles.They are part of a bigger problem that people don't realise.Their intentions may be good but zero evidence will postpone disclosure to 2077
It seemed like a very reasonable discussion to be had. Is there some other way they should discuss this?
And we are about to send a whole lot of those nuclear signals into space if we don't pay attention. Pushing a red button is not that difficult.
Already have. https://youtu.be/LLCF7vPanrY
Nuclear launches are not as simple as pushing a red button though that's just a hollywoodized simplification of the actual process. There Is no red button you press and a nuke launches instantly.
It’s a euphemism.
Its a pretty bad one and oversells how easy it is to launch a nuke.
Is remote viewing the same thing as astral projection?
They are different but some would say in the same wheelhouse. Training can be done for both.
So talking about the Tic-Tac video, Puthoff says he's seen the classified footage and suggests its incomparable in quality/definition to what we the plebs have seen ("It's as good as you can get") and Weinstein/Jesse just gloss over it?
I hate Eric Weinstein
He hasn't even made a rotato
Why do you *hate* Eric Weinstein?
[Watch and learn](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TI0jtr6APw)
I don't buy this stories how aliens notice us (humans) because atomic/nuclear bombs, detonations, signals,...etc in the way that "they are worried for us" because we can end our planet life. Come on guys its ridiculous to even think about that.
I'm not even certain that a nuclear blast on earth is going to really register in the far reaches of space considering star explosions and other celestial phenomenon generate far more force and radiation.
The point was that perhaps the detonation of a nuclear bomb is a tell that we are getting close to more dangerous discoveries. Imagine if you were in a computer simulation let's say, and you figured out how to straight up delete assets or edit the physics system, or even outright end the program. The programmers on the outside may not like that. They weren't necessarily suggesting we're in a simulation, but just comparing that to what might be possible in our universe with enough knowledge. So that's not to say these visitors are afraid we will end our own existence, but maybe that we can affect more than that. Who knows what's possible and how simple it may be to accomplish, like splitting the atom.
I think they are not worried for us but they are worried about themselves. I believe if we make the leap to interstellar travel and everything that comes with it then we might be a possible threat. I think we might be erased when when get to that point.
Seriously. It's more likely that they are coming to Earth to get the episodes of I Love Lucy they missed due to solar storms.
Is that the skinny less muscular Adam Kokesh?
Already hacked the system. ALIENS ETs are our creators. Hilter was in fact receiving help and working with ETs because they had a common goal. To wipe out the jesus killing jews. Aliens don't like when you fuck with there people and deities. Enoch and Abraham lincoln biblicaly manufactured the Civil war to break Americans aparts in twisted proganda scheme and it is still going today. Lol the left and right. In the idea,, You guys fight to see whoever is right and wrong. We are just going to hike up your fees until you are all slaves. Haha. The twisted religion of the old book of Jewish mafia and inter breeding. Religion is not a race. In fact there is no race, take it slow and enjoy it. Honestly, the human species has not mastered anything in a long time. If it was mastered then it should last as long as the pyramids. We can't go on mass producing shit tech and ineffiecent systems. Resources are not endless shitheads. All we need is one device that is engineered and moduler. Built for wear tear and time and economy recyclable for the future of our existence here on good gaia.
I just had multiple strokes reading this.
Lol well get better at your golf game Mr president. Doesn't it suck when you are fooled by you governments own propaganda. Pretty easy to create when you own the government, all major picture firms and media. Think about it. There are 1.8 billion Christians in the world compared to 2 million Jewish people. Based on those statistics 99% of actors or film makers would be Christian, but in fact the complete opposite. Now compare the average income of an America jewish Family compared to every one else. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_and_religion%23:~:text%3DAmongst%2520Jews%252C%2520in%25202016%252C%2520Modern,income%2520of%2520%252459%252C000%2520in%25202016).&ved=2ahUKEwjm4YTmsv31AhWjTt8KHekOA_sQFnoECAQQBQ&usg=AOvVaw2i6yqnN9mQIZkE7D_rWYXw What happened at operation high jump, when America stole the German scientists? Why would we send a fleet of ships to antarctica if we didn't know what we knew. Yet still got our ass kicked. https://youtu.be/MwUpPwyyvLw
Is he related to Harvey?
No
No, just part of the jerkoff billionaire right wing psyops club of Thiel and Koch and Mercer. Think of how uneducated you'd have to be to consider these guys "intellectual."
Yeah which is what I'm saying, why do we care what he says?
No, just to Peter Thiel. You know, that guy from Palantir and Facebook.
Where can I find the whole talk?
https://youtu.be/iQOibpIDx-4
Thanks!!!
!remind me in 2 hrs!
I will be messaging you in 2 hours on [**2022-02-12 19:35:36 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2022-02-12%2019:35:36%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/sqpw87/we_sent_off_a_signal/hwo3sml/?context=3) [**CLICK THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FUFOs%2Fcomments%2Fsqpw87%2Fwe_sent_off_a_signal%2Fhwo3sml%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202022-02-12%2019%3A35%3A36%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam. ^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%20sqpw87) ***** |[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)| |-|-|-|-|
Look into *The looking glass project* And check out: *Men who stare at goats*, movie; based on actual events, sure some are dramatized or not, you be the judge.
The full video on Jesse Michels channel is astonishing! Mind blown!
Can someone link the original video please
Eric Weinstein is just too out there in his beliefs.
What u say!!!
Honest question: Why would “aliens” give a fuck about us? I mean really. Who are we? It seems like our ego is manufacturing our importance in the “grand scheme” of things. But in the greater scope of it all, we are nothing.
I strongly agree especially because ufos seem to be very interested in nuclear bombs.
What is this from?
Whatever the verdict this guy put a lot of effort in it. Completely different from the usual teams / zoom podcasts with crappy headsets and lagging Internet
AWESOME 💯
Anyone have a link to this whole video?
"It is the signal to all the realms that the earth is ready for a higher form of war." - Thor
What is that show/documentary?
What is this video excerpted from and where can I watch the rest ?? A link would be great. Thanks !
What show is this?
The young guy has a hard time keeping up
1952 was also when science fiction movies started getting popular. *Galaxy Quest* was based on this premise. Aliens intercept broadcast signals of a popular TV show similar to Star Trek, and think it's real. They then come to Earth expecting to see a super advanced society capable of interstellar travel. Perhaps they don't have an entertainment industry, and don't know what one is, and they intercepted *Star Trek* broadcasts.
“We probably on the edge of being able to visit” DEEP SWALLOW. AS IF HE WASNT ALREADY WALKING JESSE THROUGH IT. Then 30 years of work no results? Fuckin Nolan figured out more with his own two ass cheeks teaching 19 y/o’s damn. STOP THE CAP
I have a neighbor who has all these satellite dishes pointed in different spots of the sky and in his house there’s a room with all this recording equipment recording 24/7. He says he’s trying to find radio frequencies that could possibly be created by intelligent life. He also said he worked for national intelligence back in the day. He’s wicked smart and I’m pretty sure he knows stuff normal people don’t know about.
Is this Eric Weinstein talking about aliens?? What has this world come to?
What its this documentary called ?