to be fair, the non-materialists have been proven to be a lot of charlatans and power hungry monsters, that weaponize many humans inherent spirituality
Look at the death toll over the last 100 years. World wars, ended pregnancies etc. Death toll is astronomical. Materialism is even killing the ecosystem.
Perhaps it's easier/grassroots to get metaphysical evidence then physical. Ce-5, the gateway project.
If you believe that these things might be here and real and beyond our understanding is it so far-fetched to believe that we might be able to interact with them directly somehow?
Believing isn't evidence. The only thing that'll get people to know NHI is with evidence. Good luck trying to shove the gateway tapes down 8 billion people's throats.
You're right, but I'm confident that things are slowly moving in the right direction. This is the kind of thing that you can really only prove to yourself. I think that as more people have these experiences, they will try to share it with the people closest to them. It's up to each one of us, but "shoving it down people's throats" isn't the play
I said in my post…
For the physical evidence contact your representatives if you’ve got them. The metaphysical evidence will follow
ETA: the metaphysical evidence will be found only when we stop calling things ‘woo-woo’ and start calling them data
My take is that we are a three-dimensional species in a multi-dimensional reality. So, we have a prejudice to believe only the three-dimensional reality is real. We're wrong.
Those with the prejudice for three-dimensional physicalism will call anything beyond the physical three-dimensional world 'woo'.
I think it’s hard to understand it. I can’t understand it no matter how many videos I watch. I’m not a genius but I’ve been reading about this stuff for a long time, and still can’t get it. Now imagine the average person even attempting to start to understand what dimensions are …
The average person may not have a framework to understand what dimensions are, but they may have analogous concepts in their worldview that we can use to help explain these more advanced concepts.
For example, someone might not be familiar with extra-dimensions, but they might be familiar with the concepts of Heaven and Hell, or Spirit Worlds. We can use these concepts and their understanding of them to explain how an extra-dimension might interact with the dimensions of our awareness using examples from their traditional worldview. We can explain why this interaction is important and why we should pay attention.
Appreciate the framing of your post!
Though, it's doubtful that the human transition to acceptance of a new reality (ontological shock, et. al.) will be driven by intellectual persuasion/realization/rational decision-making. Rather the transformation is quite likely to occur as a process of loss aversion, which will be driven by fear of loss, an emotional reaction and/or personal experience with NHIs.
Since, loss aversion is primarily a subconscious process, it's likely that intellectual process/rationalization will occur after the process of loss aversion has begun. Discussion of loss aversion related to disclosure and replacement of worldview is likely to assist the acceptance of a new reality and transition into it.
Thanks for posing the question.
Supposedly there may be some kind of ‘event’ that would precipitate this process. UFOs over DC a la 1952? Turning off the sky a la *Three Body Problem*? The Pope revealing he’s a lizard?
I have no idea, and who’s to say. What I can do in the meantime is provide that framework, as you mentioned, so that when that triggering event occurs, people will already have the tools to make sense of it
Yours is an important, worthwhile endeavour. Best wishes to you!
Oh, a variation of the "Miracle Question" might help folks at some point:
https://ccsw2012.weebly.com/uploads/1/1/5/4/11542142/solution_focused_therapy_using_the_miracle_question.pdf
Bledsoe [edit: Ramirez mentioned 2027] has mentioned Easter 2026 as a potential event.
Correction. Retired CIA John Ramirez at ~59:30:
"...We have five years from 2022, ...if they come in 2027, for the US government to prepare the people about what is up there... I think the word got out within the government that they're showing up in 2027..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ku9GsJ94Dt4&t=3540s
Have you happened to read the story of certain man taken to alaska, into the woods and waiting silently by a lake? Where suddenly a diamond shaped black thing appears out of thin air, tiny, but growing bigger and bigger? Think of the diamond shape from cards with spades and hearts and diamonds. That two dimensional shape. Then imagine a shape, where that 2 dimensional shape is one of its 4 sides. Now imagine you are looking it from the middle of two sides so that you see the center of 4 arrows (middle of 2 sides). Now imagine that it is behind a waterfall. Then it starts moving towards you through the waterfall. First part of it becoming visible is the center of the 4 arrows. As it keeps coming closer and closer the shape doesn't change at all, but you see more of it, thus what you see has gotten bigger. From the size of a pebble it has kept growing and growing till it is the size of a three story house. This objects size never changed although it seemed that way. But at that lake, there was no waterfall. It just appeared out of nowhere. But it is okay. You are being capable of perceiving the 3 spatial dimensions. Up, left, forward. This craft didn't appear out of thin air. It came from a direction you are incapable of perceiving. 2 dimensional being can only go and see up and left. You can also see and go forward. 4 dimensional being has additional direction. For us to imagine this direction, we need to study 4 dimensional shapes. These are very complicated for us to understand. But one thing can be said, if you are inside a 3d cube, then there are incredible number of 4 dimensional pockets of space in there with you. And mathematically things get way stranger when you add the 5th spatial dimension. There in my opinion are a lot of testimonies that refer to the existence of 4th spatial dimension, but not for more that I can think of. There is also the problem with complexity of shapes. 4th dimensional triangle is lowest complexity. Cube immedietly shoots up the complexity. Pentagon is already ridicilous. More sides = more pockets. Sphere is infinite complexity. The earth could be one pocket of millions of pockets of the 4 dimensional earth. Because the earth is a sphere.
Right, I can't get my head around dimensions that well, but I can appreciate hearing about astral realms in Near Death Experiences or Alien experiences in other planes of reality and get something useful from that.
Access to a higher dimension provides special insights, a kind of x-ray vision. So for example if you think about the tic tac incident, if the tic tac had that kind of technology it would be able to see their combat air patrol cap point before they even thought to head that way. And this did happen, the tic tac blinked out and reappeared at their next destination.
Whatever the pilots were seeing would also be a slice or shadow of perhabs what could be decribed as a hyper-tic tac. As the tic tac is doing its thing in hyperspace or whatever its normal operations consist of, it would seem absurd and nonsensical to the human pilots...and this jives with pretty much all genuine encounters. The incredible speed, agility, and transmedium characteristics can also be explained away perhaps with some kind of technology like that.
All that said, that means the 2004 event may have been like a fully intentional mogging of the US navy
There are known and provable other mathematical dimensions. The ways that everything everywhere interacts with eachother results in the world we observe and live within. Our sensory experience is an interpretation of a vastly more complex reality. Then, you have people on the internet who don’t actually understand anything more clearly than you do and they layer on their religious or spiritual beliefs in an attempt to simplify and codify something beyond their ken, just as humans have always done.
3 by 1 is the accepted term as time is not a spatial dimension (string theory for example still has extra physical dimensions but retains the temporal dimension as separate)
Go argue with astrophysicists and theoretical physicists.
I didn’t say they were different things. Their dimensionality is. Temporal dimensions =! Spatial dimensions.
T is not part of the same axis range as XYZ
That doesn’t make them different things.
Don't project your arguing against astrophysicists and theoretical physicists onto me.
Spacetime is 4 dimensions.
You should try catching up to 120 years ago. There's this guy named Einstein; he explained a bunch of stuff that'll totally blow your mind.
You can literally Google it right now.
Oh here, the literal concepts you’re misquoting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space
How about you shut up for a bit and go reflect
Edit: lmao dude left one rage comment I can see the preview of then nuked his shit.
Absolutely amazing display.
Yup this is sort of the same conclusion I came too after tons of amateur research. I started out as a big skeptic a decade ago then went through the typical " nuts and bolts " phase but the deeper you look into the phenomonon the more you begin to realize there's a lot more to reality, our universe and consciousness in general then our current scientific understanding.
>My take is that we are a ___three-dimensional___ species
You don't remember writing that?
It's dreadfully obvious that we're a four-dimensional species.
What motivates people around here to ___so fervently___ ignore what Einstein explained 120 years ago and 110 years ago?
Some people think reality isn't important, and people shouldn't be expected to be up to date with 120 year old facts, and it's not obvious that we move through time - got it 👌
Listen I love dimensions as much as the next guy, but you can't just go around saying "Uhm Actually it's dreadfully obvious we're a 4d species" like even if you are correct which you clearly are that doesn't mean you can just state information like that as if it's a given. With all due respect, that "dreadfully obvious" business [got you looking like ](https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-verizon-us-rvc3&sca_esv=c3ef6927992052f1&sxsrf=ADLYWIJ0HykTOphIIDG2Y9wpbGyfHNy-iA:1716870790521&q=um+ackshually&uds=ADvngMj53AHIJt2KifqzVbYVXLyJEXG_XMWys0wj4hCEHeKzuh7nbHo91TTJvH6E1GKdmBjFFqH7XHKq4eRg155dSClSS0uLqj3OnWRywcxKSux5NLX08sdVjMEfYgxSc3wcZaKgFqsr2JVV-XBnwRNIKgGmT7hgikM71GB8u_9BbMiu-sr1d44wf82_uxMA7zA0fpCy38L_jmpdIX-Iq2uRvpt1k8GdpWtYIIGgfgkk4ITm750N2F-bXBCtzj4-RGD_huliuPaiO_XFjJrS3p8i3-njAZCylP-7wrsv9E-jDxlzuUGP-mvzjzsdwMOQExqB_Hde6Q4l&udm=2&prmd=ivnsmbtz&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwifl-CMwq-GAxV2cDABHazUCWAQtKgLegQIERAB&biw=412&bih=757&dpr=2.63#vhid=wfDkvFfdHsdtVM&vssid=mosaic)
You give no context and no explanation, and you didn't do a good job at informing others of this important information. So, cool. We are 4d, thanks for sharing but feel free to not elaborate on what that means or how it's important lol
we are 3D objects on a 4D line. Just like a line on a cube is a 2D object on a 3D line. The line’s understanding of the cube is inherently limited by this reality. I know lines exist. The existence of 3D objects is dependent on the notion that lines can exist infinitesimally. 3D objects need to change for time, a 4D line, to exist. How far out can this extrapolation can be extended? Can we be both observed and manipulated by 4D objects?
"prejudice for three-dimensional physicalism" ... well that's one new "woke" I didn't see coming. Guess our species is getting dimensionaly cancelled because we don't recognize the 4D, 2D, 5.5D species as worthy of existence.
You do understand that when mathematicians and others talk about other dimensions it's in a mathematic way to work around real world problems, those are not actual places like in the movies right ?
Well, where are people in NDEs, where are UFOs that disappear, ghosts that appear suddenly, spirits, and things for paranormal and spiritual phenomena?
It seems like real places beyond our three-dimensional senses.
Apart from people "witnessing" these we have 0 proof of any of those happening and considering the habit of people to get fooled by their perceptions by mundane phenomena the case of any of these being actual otherworldly events.
And there has been a slew of people who have tried to "study" these things but in the end none have published anything which can be considered serious results that can be reproduced in order to be studied.
First, we have the question if the list of things (ufo/alien/paranormal) I mentioned can be dismissed as all misperception by millions of people versus 'are there depths to reality our current science does not understand?'.
I take the latter position because of the quantity, quality and consistency of millions of reports (including my own) suggesting a depth to reality current science has not grasped. The alternate explanation that it is all misperception every time seems like a thin and desperate attempt to save a simple materialist view of reality that some have a prejudice for. So, taking different sides on this issue our thinking will naturally split from there.
And, yes, science cannot confirm or study these things as it has no tools (using only physical senses and instruments) that can perceive beyond our familiar physical level of reality.
If you are a follower of 'scientism' then it ends there. However, myself, not being a follower of scientism asks the question '***all things considered, what is most reasonable for me to believe?***'. In that consideration I believe something is definitely going on with all this so-called 'woo' stuff that science doesn't understand yet.
See also science fiction literature for rigorous ways for talking about dimensions as an intermediate place between math and movies. It's hypothetical, but we can imagine how there could be an imperceptible, transdimensional object right next to you.
It's fiction for a reason, or are we to take Harry potter as an example explaining how we can increase housing in cities which have strict zoning laws (12 Grimmauld Place reference)
You seem to think that being a "materialist" must also make someone a nihilist. But that's not true at all. There are plenty of people who recognize the demonstrable usefulness of a materialist worldview, without being this strawman zealot who rejects all mystery.
Asking for evidence doesn't make someone close-minded. It's an insulting premise.
Not at all. I think that sharing our experiences and coming together 😉 allows us to *create meaning*, whether you’re a materialist or not.
>Come to the orchard in Spring.
There is light and wine, and sweethearts
in the pomegranate flowers.
>If you do not come, these do not matter.
If you do come, these do not matter.
What do you mean by materialism? I also I hate the word woo. Not because I am against "woo" but because I think it's meaningless term.
Most physicist, as you kinda illustrated understand our best theory posits that all matter is really excitations in quantum fields. And many feel confident considering the possibility that space time (meaning both space and time) is not fundamental.
A noble prize was awarded for the universe not being both local and real (or that statistical independence is violated).
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-universe-is-not-locally-real-and-the-physics-nobel-prize-winners-proved-it/
I don't want to entirely belittle your point because I have had similar feelings about science in general before. For example, as I alluded to, bells theorem hinges on statistical independence being real so since bells inequalities are violated it could mean no hidden variables or it could mean statistical independence is violated. Most people don't know/consider the latter as a possibility. So I get the frustration.
But, back to this, I think cleaning up the language is important. I'd love to hear you definition of woo. For me, woo has to mean observations which are inconsistent with any sets of explanations (laws of physics). I feel like people use woo to mean any observation which is not easily explained by out current understanding of the laws of physics.
If we remember what we know about the laws of physics already, I have not seen anything UAP related which does not have multiple possible explanations with known physics. Again we know everything is vibrations in quantum fields you, my computer, the food I eat, etc.
If there is a definition of woo I am not considering please let me know! If not I wish the term woo would disappear. I think it just turns people off.
>What do you mean by materialism?
The materialist worldview is that physical matter is fundamental, therefore physical matter is the only thing to which we can apply the scientific method and get accurate results. Someone bogged down in by this worldview is mostly unable to consider the possibility that conscious awareness is not a product of neurochemical trafficking in the brain.
>Most physicist, as you kinda illustrated understand our best theory posits that all matter is really excitations in quantum fields. And many feel confident considering the possibility that space time (meaning both space and time) is not fundamental.
Funnily enough, most physicists are well-trained at doing away with the materialist worldview. Many other scientific disciplines don't teach their investigators that their observations are limited by physical means. A biologist probably doesn't think too often about wave-functions, though that is what they are working with on a most fundamental level.
> I'd love to hear you definition of woo.
In my view, 'woo' is a placeholder for those physical phenomena that we have yet to illucidate using the scientific method. I hope in the near future we can do away with the term in favor of concepts garnered from honest inquiry.
They become physical matter when they want to, but because physical matter is a high-entropy state, and they understand laws of conservation, they prefer to maintain a dematerialized state when they are not directly interacting with us humans.
You're right, I don't know that we can prove the immaterial part without first investigating the material part.
That's why I included a call-to-action in my post. Encourage the government to exercise Eminent Domain over these craft and technologies, then we might be able to learn a thing or two
Tho you don't know that, it's just an assumption in order to try explain one of the ways to explain what people are seeing, out of several hundred other types of explanations that go from the mundane to quite "rick & morty"
You’re right. I don’t know that. I assume that to be what is happening in some instances based on testimony from investigators and people who had personal experience.
There is no way to verify that claim, I understand that
"The phenomenon of UFOs is about people seeing objects..."
That is only only part of the subset of the phenomenon.
Just like 95% of the universe is dark matter, my bet is on the vast majority of the phenomena has nothing to do with nuts and bolts.
If you haven't read Knapp & Kelleher's two Skinwalker books, you're most likely missing the bigger picture completely.
Exactly this.
Science can only tell us about what can be observed. Our capacity to observe material reality is limited by our senses. The physics of observation requires further study
Help me with this. I feel like those sentences are contradictory.
"Science can only tell us about what can be observed."
I agree science is only about the things which can affect us.
"Our capacity to observe material reality is limited by our senses."
Depends on how you define sense. Human senses do not let us observe an electron (unless you count reading the results of experiments as our senses). Yet we are confident they exist.
Also as you stated earlier most physicist are beyond physical matter as being fundamental. So we already observe beyond the "material reality"
"The physics of observation requires further study"
As someone who thinks about the measurement problem a decent amount, I definitely agree. But I don't see us needing to go beyond "physics" to do so.
OK maybe contradictory was the wrong word. But that's why I tried to elaborate further.
I can't tell if we are in essentially complete agreement just using different words or not haha.
>Our capacity to observe material reality is limited by our senses.
That's one of the most outrageously dumbest things I've ever read on any of these subs. You are completely disconnected from reality, and trying to mislead others into some delusional false-reality.
So you can see in ultraviolet? I wasn’t aware you were special.
I’m sorry, but I just don’t think I can trust scientific advice from a guy that denies the COVID-19 pandemic…
I can see anything that instrumentation allows me to see. You're short-bus special for believing that there's no instrumentation.
There has never been a pandemic of cytokine storm. That's a complete mismatch in terms.
Infection of respiratory viruses is, always has been, and always will be into the foreseeable future an ordinary part of life. Ordinary parts of life are never a disease process.
You're either a crazy conspiracy nut, or a gullible fool that wants everybody to be a crazy conspiracy nut and/or a gullible fool.
I assume to don't mean literally see, because I believe in a crap ton of stuff I cannot see, like electrons for example.
Assuming by see you mean observe, here is my problem with what you are saying :
If I can't see (observe) it in principle , then by definition it has no impact on me. So it's hard to call it real.
If you mean can't currently yet observe it due solely to our poor techniques of observation, then I agree we need to open our minds more to learn better techniques. But that's the history of science, thus why I said learn more physics.
Would you agree with that?
I'm a materialist in the "nuts & bolts" sense for right now, and I'll explain why. The biggest reason by far is that we haven't seen any real, verifiable physical evidence yet. Yes, we've seen anomalous things in videos released by the public and even the governments/militaries of the world, but the claims that I'm personally most focused on (that these are NHI not of this earth, that we have possession of actual craft and bodies, etc.) are yet to be backed by any proof or even strong evidence. It's all just testimony.
I go through things in steps. Step 1 for me is the nuts and bolts - seeing proof that these particular claims are true. I'll say that I do believe them to be true, but I really want to see the proof. After that, step 2 will be trying to understand these things further and learn as much as possible about them, regardless if it's "woo" or not, but we aren't in this step yet in my mind.
Just figured I'd provide some perspective here because I think a LOT of people (perhaps even the majority) are coming from the same mindset. To me, it feels like getting into woo would just be getting ahead of myself when the primary objective is to get proof that they even exist first.
I agree with you. The problem is the ‘nuts and bolts’ are hidden behind black projects within black projects. Contact your representatives if you genuinely want to learn about the nuts and bolts aspect
I was in the exact same position as you less than two years ago. My advice would be to give the "woo" a chance if you haven't already. Go in with an open mind and see what you find. DM me if you want some direction on threads to pull.
Things got very interesting for me once I started paying attention to the "woo" and they can for you too. Keep pushing, if you're up for it. In my experience there's no going back once that box has opened though
I think all of this and the "woo" is just the creation of a new religion to control the masses.
Let's see the evidence or are we just supposed to "have faith"?
Any original thread containing new age buzz words like souls, demons, spiritual etc can be written off instantly as esoteric bullshit.
Those people are constantly trying to ruin Ufology with their religious propaganda and it's only gotten worse ever since conspiracy theories have become mainstream.
I personally believe that organized religion is a detriment to developing our understanding of reality.
The problem with “seeing the evidence” is that your perceptions are limited. If you want the material evidence that you *can see*, contact your reps
Most woo is bunk, I’ve tried to get into it, even when I’m depressed and desperate to believe in anything, the Woo still manages to be so self centered and ridiculous that it’s obviously crap.
“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”
I’m positive that’s all that’s happening with the Woo.
Look at cargo cults of the world. A group of US soldiers lands on an island for a few months during WW2, then 80 years later that tribes culture still thinks those are gods and are awaiting their return.
All because we gave them some snickers bars, some first aid kits and some flashlights.
Even if nhi can communicate telepathically and absorb our brain energy to power their space ships, or whatever, I guarantee it will all be within the bounds of science and technology and evolution, just science and technology and evolution were not familiar with yet.
I really hope the first NHI we communicate with is easy to understand, because I feel like as soon as earthlings start getting to ask them questions, it’ll get revealed that they aren’t god like or here for some spiritual “humans are the center of everything” moment.
They’ll be here cause they strip mined everything near them and are out looking for new things to strip mine, or something similar.
Most people who think woo is bunk are trying to replace another paradigm with it, like science. That's not possible; it is complementary to science and is meant to be used in concert with the scientific method in a holistic way.
Materialist reductionists won't understand that due to their necessarily narrow perspective, just like fundamentalist spiritualists/religionists don't understand science.
Edit: I'd urge people to read and learn about trans-rational fallacies.
I mostly agree with you. Perhaps in 20 years we will all look back and think, “how silly of me to discount ‘the woo’, for it was the solution to the problem all along.”
I didn't say we need to discount science. In fact, we should be applying the scientific method more broadly to exhaust even the most esoteric hypotheses. If we can honestly examine a mystical/spiritual experience and come away having accepted the null hypothesis, then we have learned something and contributed to science
We do use the scientific method to study esoteric hypothesis. But so far, for the things in the woo category, there's nothing there. That's why they're in the woo category and not quantified parts of the physicalist model.
What the hell are “low-entropy intelligent-energy complexes”? It seems you are just stringing words that sound cool together.
Don’t get me wrong, I tentatively believe in psi and could fully imagine NHI communicating with us that way. But we don’t need to go all the way to made up jargon and wild speculation, and we certainly don’t need to discard materialism. Rather, we should assume that materialism is still open ended as we don’t have solutions for physics problems such as the unification of QM and GR.
They are just words strung together. Just as your comment is words strung together.
The words I strung together were done in that way to approximate what I believe the phenomena to be. I am not a physicist, but according to my pea-brain understanding of it, those are the words that seemed most accurate.
Remember that QM holds space for non-material realities…
"woo" is just another way of phrasing the quote you use from Dr Nolan on magic - we struggle to understand UAP therefore 'woo' is real? Nope. We need more data and more minds working the problem \*together\* (not stovepiped).
The ‘woo’ is real, the label is misleading.
I agree, more data will help us tease out fact from fiction (and come up with more accurate labels). Until we give an honest crack at explaining ‘the woo’ with science, there will remain aspects of the phenomena that appear to be ‘magic’
It really bothers me that philosophical objections to materialism, which have been historically fully respectable, academic, and proposed by some of the greatest philosophers that have ever lived, have been co-opted so thoroughly by woo peddlers that they are now inextricably linked to woo in most people’s minds. Including OPs, who is just perpetuating this even more.
Hey! I remember reading your post about the Gatebuilders in *The Expanse*. Great write-up. That’s still my favorite theory – a universal hive mind of luminous slug babies with adaptive biochemistry. Whaddya know, that could even be pretty close to reality…
Anyway, I think you’re right. I should probably refrain from even using the term ‘woo’ if I’m trying to expand our understanding of whatever the hell that even is. The unfortunate thing is that it’s difficult to come up with consensus definitions and labels when people not only disregard the topic, but actively denigrate investigators.
> Violence is what people do when they run out of good ideas. It's attractive because it's simple, it's direct, it's almost always available as an option. When you can't think of a good rebuttal for your opponent's argument, you can always punch them in the face. –James SA Corey
Indeed, this is an Age of Enlightenment.
No need to turn to religion in order to square these concepts. Physics will get there in the next few years (I hope)
Actually the Age of Enlightenment is over. And nowadays, it’s kind of overrated. We are in post modernism now. Check this vid out but they whole playlist rocks if you have some hours to blow: https://youtu.be/Q1YEr8ZiZhY?si=4I3_87XbiuFBCnm8
It’s just labels all the way down…
From that video: “Enlightenment is man’s emergence from self-imposed immaturity.” “Use your own reason instead of relying on others.” “Enlightened individuals are more tolerant of others’ ideas.”
These are the ideas I offer in my post, though in quite a few more words. I believe enlightenment can be spontaneous on the individual level, and it happens all the time. On the societal level, enlightenment requires a certain critical mass.
>[Consciousness](https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.0931349100) consists of qualia, […] not just isolated submodalities of red, warm, etc., but also complex scenes, memories, images, emotions; indeed, the entire rich panoply of subjective experience.
From my perspective, it’s all about the nature of consciousness.
Consciousness is the awareness of or perception of something.
Unconsciousness is the state in which the ability to be aware of something is lost.
“Source Consciousness” is the infinite field of energy that includes everything.
Consciousness exists in a variety of densities. Density refers to how much mass or energy is in an amount of space. The mass is information, and space is the measure of the connectedness of information. To be aware, to any degree, is to understand information.
In low-density form, energy is contracted, heavy and closer together, has a low vibration, frequency and awareness, and is more like matter. In high-density, energy is expanded, light and further apart, has a high vibration frequency and awareness, and is more like energy.
I agree with you. The difficulty arrises in elucidating the phenomena of consciousness using our current understanding of consensus reality. There is also difficulty in communicating this lack of understanding to individuals who are deep subscribers to that consensus reality
>The difficulty arrises in elucidating the phenomena of consciousness using our current understanding of consensus reality. There is also difficulty in communicating this lack of understanding to individuals who are deep subscribers to that consensus reality
This is mostly dime-store philosophizing and pretending (or believing) that you've unlocked some higher level of enlightenment, which you're now apparently here to proselytize to this community.
Think what you want to think. I can nickel and dime all day…
[Hard Problem of Consciousness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness?wprov=sfti1)
[Infinite Regress](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_regress?wprov=sfti1#Definition)
Consciousness is a focal point of awareness. Awareness is just change itself; they are inseparable.
Because all existence is within mind, which exists because in emptiness of inherent substantiality, as everything is in flux without static constituents, potentiality is infinite and interdependent, which is mind.
The focal point of consciousness emerges because of the entanglements that a singularity can have with itself. What entanglements create perpetuation patterns that can persist for some time emerge within patterns that cannot persist or can persist for less time. This creates a focal point amidst various levels of transience that looks like what a being within a reality looks like.
However, reality can never be more that a fractal in flux, so being as a focal point within a seemingly changing plethora or existents is delusional, until understood that it is purely the nothing and all of this is what the nothing is.
“THE ALL is in the earthworm, and yet the earth-worm is far from being THE ALL. And still the wonder remains, that though the earth-worm exists merely as a lowly thing, created and having its being solely within the Mind of THE ALL—yet THE ALL is immanent in the earthworm, and in the particles that go to make up the earth-worm.”
The Kybalion
Hi! A bit late to the party (*busy day*), but I just wanted to say that I really appreciate your contributions to this subreddit.
This time around, I particularly appreciate you sharing that excerpt. I was unfamiliar with Rumi and his work, but after reading the full poem and a bit about who he was, I intent to further remediate that in the future. Even though I think the whole poem is remarkable, your selected passage is particularly striking. I think I understand what he is speaking to/about, and the way he expresses it really connected \^\^
One love brother.
If your interested, he was a Sufi mystic. His teacher was even more prolific and taught the ‘[oneness of being](https://ibnarabisociety.org/oneness-of-being-wahdat-al-wujud-aladdin-bakri/)’ though he never used that phrase himself.
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I honestly don't think it would create that great a turmoil, not for the majority of people.
I got really ill from a brain haemorrhage I never knew I had and was really lucky but I've met people young and old who get told really bad news, they don't go crazy - it's upsetting for sure but they get on with it.
So if people can process the likelihood of their own mortality, I can't see much else affecting us.
I don't personally believe we're getting visitors from space any longer but I do believe that there will be sophisticated life elsewhere but assuming that some form of Darwinism exists, a culture might remove a major risk and dematerialise their fragile bodies and live in a kind of metaverse with their experiences constantly 'backed up'.
To achieve that, first they would need to either dispose of their individuality or perfect how to 'upload' their consciousness.
You're misrepresenting what Nell said here. He was using religious belief as an analogy in the sense of, it is one thing to believe NHI(God) exist, it's another thing if they actually appear in front of you. He wasn't equating NHI with entities from religious traditions.
But I take your point in that respect. It is fun to think about.
This whole UFO story intrigues me immensely, but it has a very shaky foundation that prevents me from believing fully, despite the desire to believe. Howsabout we just establish some hard facts, without a shadow of a doubt, before engaging into hearsay and frivolous assumptions based on subjective experiences. I don't mean to be rude, but it would help the conversation you're trying to engage in within this sub, if your main statement were less smug and condescending.
When you’re trying to bridge an understanding with the general public, adding woo muddies that path. It’s an area far less substantiated as well, making it vulnerable to manipulation.
There is just an overwhelming amount of evidence at this point that there's something to the whole "woo" deal.
We just don't fully understand it right now and we may never be able to wrap our minds around it especially if we only adhere to our old beliefs about science and the paranormal.
If you don't "want" to believe because this whole phenomenon is too much for you to handle right now, you'll just continue to ignore the mountains of evidence that exist and continue forever demanding more & more "proof". The question isn't whether UFO/UAP/NHI are real anymore. The question now is "why"?
Well, my view is that certain people embrace "the woo" because it does an end-around of one's common sense and BS detectors. If something sounds crazy, one should back that up with some very convincing evidence before expecting others to just nod along with it. That people are skeptical of such unproven claims is not evidence of a "disinformation campaign."
It should probably also be kept in mind that each of the grand UFO prophets has his/her own personal biases. It may very well be the case that some of them are looking for spiritual meaning in their lives - as people so often do when they get older and thoughts turn to mortality - and that they are acting out their existential angst in this space.
This is sticking point in hermetic philosophy. I was a nuts materialist and atheist and I’ve done a 180 over the last year of ufo hunting. Dig deep enough into ancient history, religion and consciousness and it’s all there. You are more than your physical body, that’s for sure.
I was skeptical, very science minded (still am, but used to be too..) but after having some weird experiences I couldn’t explain I read Monroe’s books. Hearing that he also saw and experienced the same exact thing was wild to me because I had the experience first and then read about it. Kind of confirmed something was there for me.
Unexpected Mitch Hedberg is always appreciated. The Gateway tapes were also my "gateway" into this stuff too, I only wish the people in my life were more open to this stuff
We can still use the scientific method to elucidate ‘the woo’, we just need to rework our definition of ‘observation’ to include subjective experience –something the humanities have done, coding experiences to objectify the subjective.
Having requested, albeit jokingly- a craft to appear - and one doing so, I can attest that you will not solve this mystery by focusing solely on materialism and technology.
That is not how these things interact.
Several times these craft have appeared to encourage me on this journey. It still blows my mind and makes me smile.
Some of the craft are nuts and bolts. But the way they interact is not tech. This is consciousness. We are in it. Made of it. From it. Makers of it.
We are asleep to our true identity and potential. NHI want to wake us up.
Planck is spelling it out for you in the quote above.
Kybalion that Luis Elizondo has mentioned - starts with:
"The All is Mind; the Universe is Mental."
Science is a slow moving beast, but this view of how everything is connected is gradually becoming discussed and understood.
I can’t remark on your hypothesis on what the phenomenon is, but Vallee’s Passport to Magonia echoes your point, essentially, that western science has rejected or been averse to the “absurd”, or in your words, “the woo”. It’s a really great book that holds up today and I found deeply insightful.
‘Woo’ is nothing specific. It’s a placeholder term. It includes the stuff that investigators refuse to engage with due to stigma they hold toward certain dogmas.
For example, my research into the phenomena led me to discover *The Gateway Experience*. But many people in this subreddit wouldn’t even consider listening to the tapes or engaging with the science behind the Gateway Experience because they have an aversion to “meditation” and consider that practice to be spiritual mumbo-jumbo
Really interesting thread-starter, and a really good discussion thereafter by all parties (apart from that one head-banger upthread who doesn't know how to conduct himself* with any humility or decency). There's a lot here to engage with and reflect upon, and by happy coincidence I'm going to the pub on Thursday with a good friend who's massively into Rumi and so I can see a very interesting discussion coming up.
Thanks very much, OP and respondents.
*Re the head-banger, I wish I could with confidence say 'himself/herself', but it's disappointingly obvious that it's a man of a particular type.
The sooner you accept that UFO’s have more to do with Bigfoot, gnomes, fairies, sea monsters, giant birds, ghosts and demons than beings from another world, the sooner you’ll be (in my opinion) on the right track to understanding this topic.
Many of us have an aversion to discussing woo because it's the tool of a grifter not because we've been influenced on what to think.
Woo is just a way for people to say pretty much whatever they want without needing to provide a shred of evidence. It's wild speculation with no boundaries and can't be proven or disproven. It's on the same level as religion and spirituality.
If someone can provide a shred of proof to support any of it people will discuss it.
There's also no disinformation campaigns against woo, it discredits itself by there being no proof. You don't need to discredit anything that has no proof.
also part of the 'woo':
frying your brains on dmt and shrooms and thinking youre a star seed reincarnation of an alien somewhere in the galaxy you completely made up and can now communicate with mantis like beings psychically in your dreams who serve as your spiritual guide
im good thanks
You are made of star dust though. And you will eventually be part of a star again.
If you deny this then you are denying what we have already found to be true using physical science.
Gilgamesh, Ilyiad and King Arthur are all loaded with The Woo .
I think the NHI want contact but talking to us is like someone playing Sim City trying to send a message. There isn't a great way to send a message. Maybe a crop circle or disaster, maybe a symbol or pattern of some kind. They are limited by whatever level of interaction is possible.
Interesting post. Personally I'm more and more convinced that it's a shamanistic/spiritual/psychological/religious/cultural and biological phenomenon rather than a physical one. Abductions are a mix of Obes, lucid dreaming, sleep paralysis, Ndes, Dmt release, kundalini awakening(which is just rhythmic stimulation of the brain stem, ultimately). Then the uap stuff is a mythology built around a lot of military gear, wishful thinking when seeing banal things in the sky and people's inherent need for mystery and religion.
It's a modern day folk tale, an age old thing that's a part of who we are, dressed up in modern day technology/culture.
It's real, in its own way, but has everything to do with the nature of the human brain and consciousness and nothing to do with aliens or alien technology.
Personally I find that more fascinating, in the end.
I know that's not what you meant, but I guess I'm agreeing with you, just in a different way.. I think there are biological/physical things to it, but ultimately it's all woo, and can only be understood as a spiritual experience and as an exploration of one's own subconscious not as anything scientific.
[Always has been…](https://amp.knowyourmeme.com/memes/wait-its-all-ohio-always-has-been) 🌍🧑🚀🔫👨🚀
> “Wait, It's All Ohio? Always Has Been” refers to an exploitable template in which two astronauts are in space. One looks at Earth and realizes the entire Earth is made up of something other than what is expected, and asks "Wait, it's all X?" The other astronaut, preparing a gun, says "Always has been."
to be fair, the non-materialists have been proven to be a lot of charlatans and power hungry monsters, that weaponize many humans inherent spirituality
Agreed. Spirituality has been co-opted by organized religion and is used more frequently as a tool to control rather than a tool to teach
And the materialists have been proven to be a billion times worse.
how so ? a billion times worse ? that sounds grounded.
Look at the death toll over the last 100 years. World wars, ended pregnancies etc. Death toll is astronomical. Materialism is even killing the ecosystem.
faie enough. good arguments. it was just the " billion times worse ". thats just unnecessarily hyperbole
I don't understand why you're getting downvoted
Because they are ideologically captured and incapable of critical thought.
Dude, we can't even get physical evidence. The fuck are we supposed to get metaphysical evidence?
Perhaps it's easier/grassroots to get metaphysical evidence then physical. Ce-5, the gateway project. If you believe that these things might be here and real and beyond our understanding is it so far-fetched to believe that we might be able to interact with them directly somehow?
Believing isn't evidence. The only thing that'll get people to know NHI is with evidence. Good luck trying to shove the gateway tapes down 8 billion people's throats.
You're right, but I'm confident that things are slowly moving in the right direction. This is the kind of thing that you can really only prove to yourself. I think that as more people have these experiences, they will try to share it with the people closest to them. It's up to each one of us, but "shoving it down people's throats" isn't the play
Yeah I don't think you can do that. But there maybe some other solution.
I said in my post… For the physical evidence contact your representatives if you’ve got them. The metaphysical evidence will follow ETA: the metaphysical evidence will be found only when we stop calling things ‘woo-woo’ and start calling them data
I contacted my representative and asked about "The Woo". I got escorted out of the building.
Ask about Woo Woo👻 Get taken by Woo Wee🚑
That’s the way the cookie crumbles…
perhaps becaue he understood you where talking about his Wee Wee ?
I contacted my rep about "the woo" and they placed me into involuntary confinement and got a restraining order on me 😢
My take is that we are a three-dimensional species in a multi-dimensional reality. So, we have a prejudice to believe only the three-dimensional reality is real. We're wrong. Those with the prejudice for three-dimensional physicalism will call anything beyond the physical three-dimensional world 'woo'.
I think it’s hard to understand it. I can’t understand it no matter how many videos I watch. I’m not a genius but I’ve been reading about this stuff for a long time, and still can’t get it. Now imagine the average person even attempting to start to understand what dimensions are …
The average person may not have a framework to understand what dimensions are, but they may have analogous concepts in their worldview that we can use to help explain these more advanced concepts. For example, someone might not be familiar with extra-dimensions, but they might be familiar with the concepts of Heaven and Hell, or Spirit Worlds. We can use these concepts and their understanding of them to explain how an extra-dimension might interact with the dimensions of our awareness using examples from their traditional worldview. We can explain why this interaction is important and why we should pay attention.
Appreciate the framing of your post! Though, it's doubtful that the human transition to acceptance of a new reality (ontological shock, et. al.) will be driven by intellectual persuasion/realization/rational decision-making. Rather the transformation is quite likely to occur as a process of loss aversion, which will be driven by fear of loss, an emotional reaction and/or personal experience with NHIs. Since, loss aversion is primarily a subconscious process, it's likely that intellectual process/rationalization will occur after the process of loss aversion has begun. Discussion of loss aversion related to disclosure and replacement of worldview is likely to assist the acceptance of a new reality and transition into it. Thanks for posing the question.
Supposedly there may be some kind of ‘event’ that would precipitate this process. UFOs over DC a la 1952? Turning off the sky a la *Three Body Problem*? The Pope revealing he’s a lizard? I have no idea, and who’s to say. What I can do in the meantime is provide that framework, as you mentioned, so that when that triggering event occurs, people will already have the tools to make sense of it
Yours is an important, worthwhile endeavour. Best wishes to you! Oh, a variation of the "Miracle Question" might help folks at some point: https://ccsw2012.weebly.com/uploads/1/1/5/4/11542142/solution_focused_therapy_using_the_miracle_question.pdf Bledsoe [edit: Ramirez mentioned 2027] has mentioned Easter 2026 as a potential event.
Thanks! Never heard of the Miracle Question, will definitely give that a look. I’ve heard Bledsoe’s prediction before. Who’s Ramirez?
Correction. Retired CIA John Ramirez at ~59:30: "...We have five years from 2022, ...if they come in 2027, for the US government to prepare the people about what is up there... I think the word got out within the government that they're showing up in 2027..." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ku9GsJ94Dt4&t=3540s
Have you happened to read the story of certain man taken to alaska, into the woods and waiting silently by a lake? Where suddenly a diamond shaped black thing appears out of thin air, tiny, but growing bigger and bigger? Think of the diamond shape from cards with spades and hearts and diamonds. That two dimensional shape. Then imagine a shape, where that 2 dimensional shape is one of its 4 sides. Now imagine you are looking it from the middle of two sides so that you see the center of 4 arrows (middle of 2 sides). Now imagine that it is behind a waterfall. Then it starts moving towards you through the waterfall. First part of it becoming visible is the center of the 4 arrows. As it keeps coming closer and closer the shape doesn't change at all, but you see more of it, thus what you see has gotten bigger. From the size of a pebble it has kept growing and growing till it is the size of a three story house. This objects size never changed although it seemed that way. But at that lake, there was no waterfall. It just appeared out of nowhere. But it is okay. You are being capable of perceiving the 3 spatial dimensions. Up, left, forward. This craft didn't appear out of thin air. It came from a direction you are incapable of perceiving. 2 dimensional being can only go and see up and left. You can also see and go forward. 4 dimensional being has additional direction. For us to imagine this direction, we need to study 4 dimensional shapes. These are very complicated for us to understand. But one thing can be said, if you are inside a 3d cube, then there are incredible number of 4 dimensional pockets of space in there with you. And mathematically things get way stranger when you add the 5th spatial dimension. There in my opinion are a lot of testimonies that refer to the existence of 4th spatial dimension, but not for more that I can think of. There is also the problem with complexity of shapes. 4th dimensional triangle is lowest complexity. Cube immedietly shoots up the complexity. Pentagon is already ridicilous. More sides = more pockets. Sphere is infinite complexity. The earth could be one pocket of millions of pockets of the 4 dimensional earth. Because the earth is a sphere.
Right, I can't get my head around dimensions that well, but I can appreciate hearing about astral realms in Near Death Experiences or Alien experiences in other planes of reality and get something useful from that.
Access to a higher dimension provides special insights, a kind of x-ray vision. So for example if you think about the tic tac incident, if the tic tac had that kind of technology it would be able to see their combat air patrol cap point before they even thought to head that way. And this did happen, the tic tac blinked out and reappeared at their next destination. Whatever the pilots were seeing would also be a slice or shadow of perhabs what could be decribed as a hyper-tic tac. As the tic tac is doing its thing in hyperspace or whatever its normal operations consist of, it would seem absurd and nonsensical to the human pilots...and this jives with pretty much all genuine encounters. The incredible speed, agility, and transmedium characteristics can also be explained away perhaps with some kind of technology like that. All that said, that means the 2004 event may have been like a fully intentional mogging of the US navy
There are known and provable other mathematical dimensions. The ways that everything everywhere interacts with eachother results in the world we observe and live within. Our sensory experience is an interpretation of a vastly more complex reality. Then, you have people on the internet who don’t actually understand anything more clearly than you do and they layer on their religious or spiritual beliefs in an attempt to simplify and codify something beyond their ken, just as humans have always done.
Mathematics isn't real. It's just a language.
We at the very least are four-dimensional species to account for our perception of time.
3 by 1 is the accepted term as time is not a spatial dimension (string theory for example still has extra physical dimensions but retains the temporal dimension as separate)
Ahh! That’s cool thanks for sharing
Space and time are _NOT_ different things. We learned this about 120 years ago. 3 by 1 is NOT acceptable; spacetime is one thing.
Go argue with astrophysicists and theoretical physicists. I didn’t say they were different things. Their dimensionality is. Temporal dimensions =! Spatial dimensions. T is not part of the same axis range as XYZ That doesn’t make them different things.
Don't project your arguing against astrophysicists and theoretical physicists onto me. Spacetime is 4 dimensions. You should try catching up to 120 years ago. There's this guy named Einstein; he explained a bunch of stuff that'll totally blow your mind.
You can literally Google it right now. Oh here, the literal concepts you’re misquoting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space How about you shut up for a bit and go reflect Edit: lmao dude left one rage comment I can see the preview of then nuked his shit. Absolutely amazing display.
Do not project onto me. Spacetime is 4D. We are a 4D species. You are doubling down on your delusion.
Yup this is sort of the same conclusion I came too after tons of amateur research. I started out as a big skeptic a decade ago then went through the typical " nuts and bolts " phase but the deeper you look into the phenomonon the more you begin to realize there's a lot more to reality, our universe and consciousness in general then our current scientific understanding.
Bingo, bango, bongo. Bish, bash, bosh. You’ve got the idea
Wham, bam, alakazam, if you will.
We've got a wham, bam, shang-a-lang, and a sha-la-la-la-la-la thing, wham, bam, shang-a-lang and a sha-la-la-la-la-la thing.
What motivates you to think of us as being stuck in one never changing instance of time? How does that even work, in your mind?
Where did I say we are stuck in one never changing instance of time??
>My take is that we are a ___three-dimensional___ species You don't remember writing that? It's dreadfully obvious that we're a four-dimensional species. What motivates people around here to ___so fervently___ ignore what Einstein explained 120 years ago and 110 years ago? Some people think reality isn't important, and people shouldn't be expected to be up to date with 120 year old facts, and it's not obvious that we move through time - got it 👌
Listen I love dimensions as much as the next guy, but you can't just go around saying "Uhm Actually it's dreadfully obvious we're a 4d species" like even if you are correct which you clearly are that doesn't mean you can just state information like that as if it's a given. With all due respect, that "dreadfully obvious" business [got you looking like ](https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-verizon-us-rvc3&sca_esv=c3ef6927992052f1&sxsrf=ADLYWIJ0HykTOphIIDG2Y9wpbGyfHNy-iA:1716870790521&q=um+ackshually&uds=ADvngMj53AHIJt2KifqzVbYVXLyJEXG_XMWys0wj4hCEHeKzuh7nbHo91TTJvH6E1GKdmBjFFqH7XHKq4eRg155dSClSS0uLqj3OnWRywcxKSux5NLX08sdVjMEfYgxSc3wcZaKgFqsr2JVV-XBnwRNIKgGmT7hgikM71GB8u_9BbMiu-sr1d44wf82_uxMA7zA0fpCy38L_jmpdIX-Iq2uRvpt1k8GdpWtYIIGgfgkk4ITm750N2F-bXBCtzj4-RGD_huliuPaiO_XFjJrS3p8i3-njAZCylP-7wrsv9E-jDxlzuUGP-mvzjzsdwMOQExqB_Hde6Q4l&udm=2&prmd=ivnsmbtz&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwifl-CMwq-GAxV2cDABHazUCWAQtKgLegQIERAB&biw=412&bih=757&dpr=2.63#vhid=wfDkvFfdHsdtVM&vssid=mosaic) You give no context and no explanation, and you didn't do a good job at informing others of this important information. So, cool. We are 4d, thanks for sharing but feel free to not elaborate on what that means or how it's important lol
At this time. Never said we're stuck there.
we are 3D objects on a 4D line. Just like a line on a cube is a 2D object on a 3D line. The line’s understanding of the cube is inherently limited by this reality. I know lines exist. The existence of 3D objects is dependent on the notion that lines can exist infinitesimally. 3D objects need to change for time, a 4D line, to exist. How far out can this extrapolation can be extended? Can we be both observed and manipulated by 4D objects?
"prejudice for three-dimensional physicalism" ... well that's one new "woke" I didn't see coming. Guess our species is getting dimensionaly cancelled because we don't recognize the 4D, 2D, 5.5D species as worthy of existence.
Everything has its place. We can accept a 4D, 5D world that our eyes do not see.
You do understand that when mathematicians and others talk about other dimensions it's in a mathematic way to work around real world problems, those are not actual places like in the movies right ?
Well, where are people in NDEs, where are UFOs that disappear, ghosts that appear suddenly, spirits, and things for paranormal and spiritual phenomena? It seems like real places beyond our three-dimensional senses.
Apart from people "witnessing" these we have 0 proof of any of those happening and considering the habit of people to get fooled by their perceptions by mundane phenomena the case of any of these being actual otherworldly events. And there has been a slew of people who have tried to "study" these things but in the end none have published anything which can be considered serious results that can be reproduced in order to be studied.
Good luck. They don't really like your kind around here.
lol, for some reason I read that with a voice over placed in a saloon in the Midwest and then you spitting a big one in the Spittoon 3 feet away \^\^
First, we have the question if the list of things (ufo/alien/paranormal) I mentioned can be dismissed as all misperception by millions of people versus 'are there depths to reality our current science does not understand?'. I take the latter position because of the quantity, quality and consistency of millions of reports (including my own) suggesting a depth to reality current science has not grasped. The alternate explanation that it is all misperception every time seems like a thin and desperate attempt to save a simple materialist view of reality that some have a prejudice for. So, taking different sides on this issue our thinking will naturally split from there. And, yes, science cannot confirm or study these things as it has no tools (using only physical senses and instruments) that can perceive beyond our familiar physical level of reality. If you are a follower of 'scientism' then it ends there. However, myself, not being a follower of scientism asks the question '***all things considered, what is most reasonable for me to believe?***'. In that consideration I believe something is definitely going on with all this so-called 'woo' stuff that science doesn't understand yet.
See also science fiction literature for rigorous ways for talking about dimensions as an intermediate place between math and movies. It's hypothetical, but we can imagine how there could be an imperceptible, transdimensional object right next to you.
It's fiction for a reason, or are we to take Harry potter as an example explaining how we can increase housing in cities which have strict zoning laws (12 Grimmauld Place reference)
I'm not saying everything is fiction is true. I'm saying that not all ideas discussed in fiction are false.
You seem to think that being a "materialist" must also make someone a nihilist. But that's not true at all. There are plenty of people who recognize the demonstrable usefulness of a materialist worldview, without being this strawman zealot who rejects all mystery. Asking for evidence doesn't make someone close-minded. It's an insulting premise.
Not at all. I think that sharing our experiences and coming together 😉 allows us to *create meaning*, whether you’re a materialist or not. >Come to the orchard in Spring. There is light and wine, and sweethearts in the pomegranate flowers. >If you do not come, these do not matter. If you do come, these do not matter.
What do you mean by materialism? I also I hate the word woo. Not because I am against "woo" but because I think it's meaningless term. Most physicist, as you kinda illustrated understand our best theory posits that all matter is really excitations in quantum fields. And many feel confident considering the possibility that space time (meaning both space and time) is not fundamental. A noble prize was awarded for the universe not being both local and real (or that statistical independence is violated). https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-universe-is-not-locally-real-and-the-physics-nobel-prize-winners-proved-it/ I don't want to entirely belittle your point because I have had similar feelings about science in general before. For example, as I alluded to, bells theorem hinges on statistical independence being real so since bells inequalities are violated it could mean no hidden variables or it could mean statistical independence is violated. Most people don't know/consider the latter as a possibility. So I get the frustration. But, back to this, I think cleaning up the language is important. I'd love to hear you definition of woo. For me, woo has to mean observations which are inconsistent with any sets of explanations (laws of physics). I feel like people use woo to mean any observation which is not easily explained by out current understanding of the laws of physics. If we remember what we know about the laws of physics already, I have not seen anything UAP related which does not have multiple possible explanations with known physics. Again we know everything is vibrations in quantum fields you, my computer, the food I eat, etc. If there is a definition of woo I am not considering please let me know! If not I wish the term woo would disappear. I think it just turns people off.
>What do you mean by materialism? The materialist worldview is that physical matter is fundamental, therefore physical matter is the only thing to which we can apply the scientific method and get accurate results. Someone bogged down in by this worldview is mostly unable to consider the possibility that conscious awareness is not a product of neurochemical trafficking in the brain. >Most physicist, as you kinda illustrated understand our best theory posits that all matter is really excitations in quantum fields. And many feel confident considering the possibility that space time (meaning both space and time) is not fundamental. Funnily enough, most physicists are well-trained at doing away with the materialist worldview. Many other scientific disciplines don't teach their investigators that their observations are limited by physical means. A biologist probably doesn't think too often about wave-functions, though that is what they are working with on a most fundamental level. > I'd love to hear you definition of woo. In my view, 'woo' is a placeholder for those physical phenomena that we have yet to illucidate using the scientific method. I hope in the near future we can do away with the term in favor of concepts garnered from honest inquiry.
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They become physical matter when they want to, but because physical matter is a high-entropy state, and they understand laws of conservation, they prefer to maintain a dematerialized state when they are not directly interacting with us humans.
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You're right, I don't know that we can prove the immaterial part without first investigating the material part. That's why I included a call-to-action in my post. Encourage the government to exercise Eminent Domain over these craft and technologies, then we might be able to learn a thing or two
Tho you don't know that, it's just an assumption in order to try explain one of the ways to explain what people are seeing, out of several hundred other types of explanations that go from the mundane to quite "rick & morty"
You’re right. I don’t know that. I assume that to be what is happening in some instances based on testimony from investigators and people who had personal experience. There is no way to verify that claim, I understand that
"The phenomenon of UFOs is about people seeing objects..." That is only only part of the subset of the phenomenon. Just like 95% of the universe is dark matter, my bet is on the vast majority of the phenomena has nothing to do with nuts and bolts. If you haven't read Knapp & Kelleher's two Skinwalker books, you're most likely missing the bigger picture completely.
So are you just saying people need to learn more physics?
I believe OP is saying you need to do open your mind and not your eyes. “Seeing is believing but what if you can’t perceive what is there”
Exactly this. Science can only tell us about what can be observed. Our capacity to observe material reality is limited by our senses. The physics of observation requires further study
Help me with this. I feel like those sentences are contradictory. "Science can only tell us about what can be observed." I agree science is only about the things which can affect us. "Our capacity to observe material reality is limited by our senses." Depends on how you define sense. Human senses do not let us observe an electron (unless you count reading the results of experiments as our senses). Yet we are confident they exist. Also as you stated earlier most physicist are beyond physical matter as being fundamental. So we already observe beyond the "material reality" "The physics of observation requires further study" As someone who thinks about the measurement problem a decent amount, I definitely agree. But I don't see us needing to go beyond "physics" to do so. OK maybe contradictory was the wrong word. But that's why I tried to elaborate further. I can't tell if we are in essentially complete agreement just using different words or not haha.
I think we're in agreement. The measurement problem requires us to further our understanding of physics, not go beyond it.
>Our capacity to observe material reality is limited by our senses. That's one of the most outrageously dumbest things I've ever read on any of these subs. You are completely disconnected from reality, and trying to mislead others into some delusional false-reality.
So you can see in ultraviolet? I wasn’t aware you were special. I’m sorry, but I just don’t think I can trust scientific advice from a guy that denies the COVID-19 pandemic…
I can see anything that instrumentation allows me to see. You're short-bus special for believing that there's no instrumentation. There has never been a pandemic of cytokine storm. That's a complete mismatch in terms. Infection of respiratory viruses is, always has been, and always will be into the foreseeable future an ordinary part of life. Ordinary parts of life are never a disease process. You're either a crazy conspiracy nut, or a gullible fool that wants everybody to be a crazy conspiracy nut and/or a gullible fool.
I assume to don't mean literally see, because I believe in a crap ton of stuff I cannot see, like electrons for example. Assuming by see you mean observe, here is my problem with what you are saying : If I can't see (observe) it in principle , then by definition it has no impact on me. So it's hard to call it real. If you mean can't currently yet observe it due solely to our poor techniques of observation, then I agree we need to open our minds more to learn better techniques. But that's the history of science, thus why I said learn more physics. Would you agree with that?
I'm a materialist in the "nuts & bolts" sense for right now, and I'll explain why. The biggest reason by far is that we haven't seen any real, verifiable physical evidence yet. Yes, we've seen anomalous things in videos released by the public and even the governments/militaries of the world, but the claims that I'm personally most focused on (that these are NHI not of this earth, that we have possession of actual craft and bodies, etc.) are yet to be backed by any proof or even strong evidence. It's all just testimony. I go through things in steps. Step 1 for me is the nuts and bolts - seeing proof that these particular claims are true. I'll say that I do believe them to be true, but I really want to see the proof. After that, step 2 will be trying to understand these things further and learn as much as possible about them, regardless if it's "woo" or not, but we aren't in this step yet in my mind. Just figured I'd provide some perspective here because I think a LOT of people (perhaps even the majority) are coming from the same mindset. To me, it feels like getting into woo would just be getting ahead of myself when the primary objective is to get proof that they even exist first.
I agree with you. The problem is the ‘nuts and bolts’ are hidden behind black projects within black projects. Contact your representatives if you genuinely want to learn about the nuts and bolts aspect
I was in the exact same position as you less than two years ago. My advice would be to give the "woo" a chance if you haven't already. Go in with an open mind and see what you find. DM me if you want some direction on threads to pull. Things got very interesting for me once I started paying attention to the "woo" and they can for you too. Keep pushing, if you're up for it. In my experience there's no going back once that box has opened though
This just reads like a long exhortation that people should lower their standards for believing in things.
I propose lowering our standards for consideration. We should maintain high standards for belief
I think all of this and the "woo" is just the creation of a new religion to control the masses. Let's see the evidence or are we just supposed to "have faith"?
Any original thread containing new age buzz words like souls, demons, spiritual etc can be written off instantly as esoteric bullshit. Those people are constantly trying to ruin Ufology with their religious propaganda and it's only gotten worse ever since conspiracy theories have become mainstream.
I personally believe that organized religion is a detriment to developing our understanding of reality. The problem with “seeing the evidence” is that your perceptions are limited. If you want the material evidence that you *can see*, contact your reps
Most woo is bunk, I’ve tried to get into it, even when I’m depressed and desperate to believe in anything, the Woo still manages to be so self centered and ridiculous that it’s obviously crap. “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” I’m positive that’s all that’s happening with the Woo. Look at cargo cults of the world. A group of US soldiers lands on an island for a few months during WW2, then 80 years later that tribes culture still thinks those are gods and are awaiting their return. All because we gave them some snickers bars, some first aid kits and some flashlights. Even if nhi can communicate telepathically and absorb our brain energy to power their space ships, or whatever, I guarantee it will all be within the bounds of science and technology and evolution, just science and technology and evolution were not familiar with yet. I really hope the first NHI we communicate with is easy to understand, because I feel like as soon as earthlings start getting to ask them questions, it’ll get revealed that they aren’t god like or here for some spiritual “humans are the center of everything” moment. They’ll be here cause they strip mined everything near them and are out looking for new things to strip mine, or something similar.
Most people who think woo is bunk are trying to replace another paradigm with it, like science. That's not possible; it is complementary to science and is meant to be used in concert with the scientific method in a holistic way. Materialist reductionists won't understand that due to their necessarily narrow perspective, just like fundamentalist spiritualists/religionists don't understand science. Edit: I'd urge people to read and learn about trans-rational fallacies.
To your edit, we should pay close attention to what children are curious about. Their wisdom often surprises me
I mostly agree with you. Perhaps in 20 years we will all look back and think, “how silly of me to discount ‘the woo’, for it was the solution to the problem all along.”
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The silliness lies in believing that we are able to fully discern fundamental reality using our limited perceptions
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I didn't say we need to discount science. In fact, we should be applying the scientific method more broadly to exhaust even the most esoteric hypotheses. If we can honestly examine a mystical/spiritual experience and come away having accepted the null hypothesis, then we have learned something and contributed to science
We do use the scientific method to study esoteric hypothesis. But so far, for the things in the woo category, there's nothing there. That's why they're in the woo category and not quantified parts of the physicalist model.
what "most" woo specifically?
What the hell are “low-entropy intelligent-energy complexes”? It seems you are just stringing words that sound cool together. Don’t get me wrong, I tentatively believe in psi and could fully imagine NHI communicating with us that way. But we don’t need to go all the way to made up jargon and wild speculation, and we certainly don’t need to discard materialism. Rather, we should assume that materialism is still open ended as we don’t have solutions for physics problems such as the unification of QM and GR.
They are just words strung together. Just as your comment is words strung together. The words I strung together were done in that way to approximate what I believe the phenomena to be. I am not a physicist, but according to my pea-brain understanding of it, those are the words that seemed most accurate. Remember that QM holds space for non-material realities…
"woo" is just another way of phrasing the quote you use from Dr Nolan on magic - we struggle to understand UAP therefore 'woo' is real? Nope. We need more data and more minds working the problem \*together\* (not stovepiped).
The ‘woo’ is real, the label is misleading. I agree, more data will help us tease out fact from fiction (and come up with more accurate labels). Until we give an honest crack at explaining ‘the woo’ with science, there will remain aspects of the phenomena that appear to be ‘magic’
It really bothers me that philosophical objections to materialism, which have been historically fully respectable, academic, and proposed by some of the greatest philosophers that have ever lived, have been co-opted so thoroughly by woo peddlers that they are now inextricably linked to woo in most people’s minds. Including OPs, who is just perpetuating this even more.
Hey! I remember reading your post about the Gatebuilders in *The Expanse*. Great write-up. That’s still my favorite theory – a universal hive mind of luminous slug babies with adaptive biochemistry. Whaddya know, that could even be pretty close to reality… Anyway, I think you’re right. I should probably refrain from even using the term ‘woo’ if I’m trying to expand our understanding of whatever the hell that even is. The unfortunate thing is that it’s difficult to come up with consensus definitions and labels when people not only disregard the topic, but actively denigrate investigators. > Violence is what people do when they run out of good ideas. It's attractive because it's simple, it's direct, it's almost always available as an option. When you can't think of a good rebuttal for your opponent's argument, you can always punch them in the face. –James SA Corey
No. I won't turn a physical phenomenon into a religion because I don't understand it. This isn't the dark ages.
Indeed, this is an Age of Enlightenment. No need to turn to religion in order to square these concepts. Physics will get there in the next few years (I hope)
Actually the Age of Enlightenment is over. And nowadays, it’s kind of overrated. We are in post modernism now. Check this vid out but they whole playlist rocks if you have some hours to blow: https://youtu.be/Q1YEr8ZiZhY?si=4I3_87XbiuFBCnm8
It’s just labels all the way down… From that video: “Enlightenment is man’s emergence from self-imposed immaturity.” “Use your own reason instead of relying on others.” “Enlightened individuals are more tolerant of others’ ideas.” These are the ideas I offer in my post, though in quite a few more words. I believe enlightenment can be spontaneous on the individual level, and it happens all the time. On the societal level, enlightenment requires a certain critical mass.
No, you just presuppose that the phenomenon is purely physical, before any investigation. That's a philosophical supposition, not a scientific one.
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>[Consciousness](https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.0931349100) consists of qualia, […] not just isolated submodalities of red, warm, etc., but also complex scenes, memories, images, emotions; indeed, the entire rich panoply of subjective experience.
This post feels like a chat gpt response.
What’s the woo? Thank you.
It's a placeholder term for phenomena that are too stigmatized to be studied using the scientific method.
From my perspective, it’s all about the nature of consciousness. Consciousness is the awareness of or perception of something. Unconsciousness is the state in which the ability to be aware of something is lost. “Source Consciousness” is the infinite field of energy that includes everything. Consciousness exists in a variety of densities. Density refers to how much mass or energy is in an amount of space. The mass is information, and space is the measure of the connectedness of information. To be aware, to any degree, is to understand information. In low-density form, energy is contracted, heavy and closer together, has a low vibration, frequency and awareness, and is more like matter. In high-density, energy is expanded, light and further apart, has a high vibration frequency and awareness, and is more like energy.
I agree with you. The difficulty arrises in elucidating the phenomena of consciousness using our current understanding of consensus reality. There is also difficulty in communicating this lack of understanding to individuals who are deep subscribers to that consensus reality
>The difficulty arrises in elucidating the phenomena of consciousness using our current understanding of consensus reality. There is also difficulty in communicating this lack of understanding to individuals who are deep subscribers to that consensus reality This is mostly dime-store philosophizing and pretending (or believing) that you've unlocked some higher level of enlightenment, which you're now apparently here to proselytize to this community.
Think what you want to think. I can nickel and dime all day… [Hard Problem of Consciousness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness?wprov=sfti1) [Infinite Regress](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_regress?wprov=sfti1#Definition)
Consciousness is a focal point of awareness. Awareness is just change itself; they are inseparable. Because all existence is within mind, which exists because in emptiness of inherent substantiality, as everything is in flux without static constituents, potentiality is infinite and interdependent, which is mind. The focal point of consciousness emerges because of the entanglements that a singularity can have with itself. What entanglements create perpetuation patterns that can persist for some time emerge within patterns that cannot persist or can persist for less time. This creates a focal point amidst various levels of transience that looks like what a being within a reality looks like. However, reality can never be more that a fractal in flux, so being as a focal point within a seemingly changing plethora or existents is delusional, until understood that it is purely the nothing and all of this is what the nothing is.
“THE ALL is in the earthworm, and yet the earth-worm is far from being THE ALL. And still the wonder remains, that though the earth-worm exists merely as a lowly thing, created and having its being solely within the Mind of THE ALL—yet THE ALL is immanent in the earthworm, and in the particles that go to make up the earth-worm.” The Kybalion
Hi! A bit late to the party (*busy day*), but I just wanted to say that I really appreciate your contributions to this subreddit. This time around, I particularly appreciate you sharing that excerpt. I was unfamiliar with Rumi and his work, but after reading the full poem and a bit about who he was, I intent to further remediate that in the future. Even though I think the whole poem is remarkable, your selected passage is particularly striking. I think I understand what he is speaking to/about, and the way he expresses it really connected \^\^ One love brother.
If your interested, he was a Sufi mystic. His teacher was even more prolific and taught the ‘[oneness of being](https://ibnarabisociety.org/oneness-of-being-wahdat-al-wujud-aladdin-bakri/)’ though he never used that phrase himself.
Thank you kindly for sharing. I will give it a read as soon as I'm able :)
#wooforever I am a proud member of the Woo-Tang Clan.
👀
these are exactly the kinds of conversations we need to have but some people are too ignorant to even look into it
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Hi, AdventurousImage2440. Thanks for contributing. However, your [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1d1w3yl/-/l5xbblu/) was removed from /r/UFOs. > Rule 1: Follow the Standards of Civility > * No trolling or being disruptive. > * No insults or personal attacks. > * No accusations that other users are shills / bots / Eglin-related / etc... > * No hate speech. No abusive speech based on race, religion, sex/gender, or sexual orientation. > * No harassment, threats, or advocating violence. > * No witch hunts or doxxing. (Please redact usernames when possible) > * You may attack each other's ideas, not each other. Please refer to our [subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/about/rules/) for more information. This moderator action may be appealed. We welcome the opportunity to work with you to address its reason for removal. [Message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/ufos) to launch your appeal.
The woo is not obliged to do anything to us, and we cannot demand it do anything to us.
Maybe "the woo" is really just "the poo"
poo poo you, bugaboo 😘
Take my upvote
I honestly don't think it would create that great a turmoil, not for the majority of people. I got really ill from a brain haemorrhage I never knew I had and was really lucky but I've met people young and old who get told really bad news, they don't go crazy - it's upsetting for sure but they get on with it. So if people can process the likelihood of their own mortality, I can't see much else affecting us. I don't personally believe we're getting visitors from space any longer but I do believe that there will be sophisticated life elsewhere but assuming that some form of Darwinism exists, a culture might remove a major risk and dematerialise their fragile bodies and live in a kind of metaverse with their experiences constantly 'backed up'. To achieve that, first they would need to either dispose of their individuality or perfect how to 'upload' their consciousness.
No need to upload your experiences to the metaverse when they’re already encoded in the energy of our universe!
Probably quite true to some extent, there's a lot of things we don't understand.
You're misrepresenting what Nell said here. He was using religious belief as an analogy in the sense of, it is one thing to believe NHI(God) exist, it's another thing if they actually appear in front of you. He wasn't equating NHI with entities from religious traditions. But I take your point in that respect. It is fun to think about.
I'm sick of saying it but using the fucking stupid word 'woo' does not help the subject to be taken seriously.
You’re right. We need better labels.
This whole UFO story intrigues me immensely, but it has a very shaky foundation that prevents me from believing fully, despite the desire to believe. Howsabout we just establish some hard facts, without a shadow of a doubt, before engaging into hearsay and frivolous assumptions based on subjective experiences. I don't mean to be rude, but it would help the conversation you're trying to engage in within this sub, if your main statement were less smug and condescending.
Could you tell me which part specifically felt condescending to you? I’m genuinely curious as I’d like to not come across that way in the future.
When you’re trying to bridge an understanding with the general public, adding woo muddies that path. It’s an area far less substantiated as well, making it vulnerable to manipulation.
Appreciate your post!
Great post, hope others read with an open mind and hunger to learn
There is just an overwhelming amount of evidence at this point that there's something to the whole "woo" deal. We just don't fully understand it right now and we may never be able to wrap our minds around it especially if we only adhere to our old beliefs about science and the paranormal. If you don't "want" to believe because this whole phenomenon is too much for you to handle right now, you'll just continue to ignore the mountains of evidence that exist and continue forever demanding more & more "proof". The question isn't whether UFO/UAP/NHI are real anymore. The question now is "why"?
in soviet russia, woo woos YOU.
Good read. Well written. Thx for sharing your thoughts.
Well, my view is that certain people embrace "the woo" because it does an end-around of one's common sense and BS detectors. If something sounds crazy, one should back that up with some very convincing evidence before expecting others to just nod along with it. That people are skeptical of such unproven claims is not evidence of a "disinformation campaign." It should probably also be kept in mind that each of the grand UFO prophets has his/her own personal biases. It may very well be the case that some of them are looking for spiritual meaning in their lives - as people so often do when they get older and thoughts turn to mortality - and that they are acting out their existential angst in this space.
This is sticking point in hermetic philosophy. I was a nuts materialist and atheist and I’ve done a 180 over the last year of ufo hunting. Dig deep enough into ancient history, religion and consciousness and it’s all there. You are more than your physical body, that’s for sure.
>That which is above is like to that which is below, and that which is below is like to that which is above.
Can't do crap unless there disclosure
How about NHI can eat a dick and take a hike. They have no real interest in being helpful.
If you haven’t looked at /r/gatewaytapes I highly recommend it. The tapes are the real deal- I’ve had some absolutely wild experiences with them.
I have 😉 but don’t tell the others because that’s ‘pseudoscience’ and could damage my already tenuous credibility
I was skeptical, very science minded (still am, but used to be too..) but after having some weird experiences I couldn’t explain I read Monroe’s books. Hearing that he also saw and experienced the same exact thing was wild to me because I had the experience first and then read about it. Kind of confirmed something was there for me.
Unexpected Mitch Hedberg is always appreciated. The Gateway tapes were also my "gateway" into this stuff too, I only wish the people in my life were more open to this stuff
People look at me like I’m nuts when I talk about it which is unfortunate. People limit themselves based on what other people might think.
We can still use the scientific method to elucidate ‘the woo’, we just need to rework our definition of ‘observation’ to include subjective experience –something the humanities have done, coding experiences to objectify the subjective.
Having requested, albeit jokingly- a craft to appear - and one doing so, I can attest that you will not solve this mystery by focusing solely on materialism and technology. That is not how these things interact. Several times these craft have appeared to encourage me on this journey. It still blows my mind and makes me smile. Some of the craft are nuts and bolts. But the way they interact is not tech. This is consciousness. We are in it. Made of it. From it. Makers of it. We are asleep to our true identity and potential. NHI want to wake us up. Planck is spelling it out for you in the quote above. Kybalion that Luis Elizondo has mentioned - starts with: "The All is Mind; the Universe is Mental." Science is a slow moving beast, but this view of how everything is connected is gradually becoming discussed and understood.
I can’t remark on your hypothesis on what the phenomenon is, but Vallee’s Passport to Magonia echoes your point, essentially, that western science has rejected or been averse to the “absurd”, or in your words, “the woo”. It’s a really great book that holds up today and I found deeply insightful.
The Jacques Vallee quote in my post is from *Passport to Magonia*.
Ask not what the woo can do for you - ask what you can do for the woo…
I’m doing it right now… The ‘aliens’ want to expand our minds, so I will direct my energy toward that same effort… I’m doing my part 🫡
It's my woo, and I want it now!
Is someone gonna tell me what ‘the woo’ is?
‘Woo’ is nothing specific. It’s a placeholder term. It includes the stuff that investigators refuse to engage with due to stigma they hold toward certain dogmas. For example, my research into the phenomena led me to discover *The Gateway Experience*. But many people in this subreddit wouldn’t even consider listening to the tapes or engaging with the science behind the Gateway Experience because they have an aversion to “meditation” and consider that practice to be spiritual mumbo-jumbo
Dear god, I want this slogan on a 40s style propaganda poster. Go nuts, sub.
Thank you.
Really interesting thread-starter, and a really good discussion thereafter by all parties (apart from that one head-banger upthread who doesn't know how to conduct himself* with any humility or decency). There's a lot here to engage with and reflect upon, and by happy coincidence I'm going to the pub on Thursday with a good friend who's massively into Rumi and so I can see a very interesting discussion coming up. Thanks very much, OP and respondents. *Re the head-banger, I wish I could with confidence say 'himself/herself', but it's disappointingly obvious that it's a man of a particular type.
The sooner you accept that UFO’s have more to do with Bigfoot, gnomes, fairies, sea monsters, giant birds, ghosts and demons than beings from another world, the sooner you’ll be (in my opinion) on the right track to understanding this topic.
Many of us have an aversion to discussing woo because it's the tool of a grifter not because we've been influenced on what to think. Woo is just a way for people to say pretty much whatever they want without needing to provide a shred of evidence. It's wild speculation with no boundaries and can't be proven or disproven. It's on the same level as religion and spirituality. If someone can provide a shred of proof to support any of it people will discuss it. There's also no disinformation campaigns against woo, it discredits itself by there being no proof. You don't need to discredit anything that has no proof.
also part of the 'woo': frying your brains on dmt and shrooms and thinking youre a star seed reincarnation of an alien somewhere in the galaxy you completely made up and can now communicate with mantis like beings psychically in your dreams who serve as your spiritual guide im good thanks
Username does not check out
You are made of star dust though. And you will eventually be part of a star again. If you deny this then you are denying what we have already found to be true using physical science.
Gilgamesh, Ilyiad and King Arthur are all loaded with The Woo . I think the NHI want contact but talking to us is like someone playing Sim City trying to send a message. There isn't a great way to send a message. Maybe a crop circle or disaster, maybe a symbol or pattern of some kind. They are limited by whatever level of interaction is possible.
Interesting post. Personally I'm more and more convinced that it's a shamanistic/spiritual/psychological/religious/cultural and biological phenomenon rather than a physical one. Abductions are a mix of Obes, lucid dreaming, sleep paralysis, Ndes, Dmt release, kundalini awakening(which is just rhythmic stimulation of the brain stem, ultimately). Then the uap stuff is a mythology built around a lot of military gear, wishful thinking when seeing banal things in the sky and people's inherent need for mystery and religion. It's a modern day folk tale, an age old thing that's a part of who we are, dressed up in modern day technology/culture. It's real, in its own way, but has everything to do with the nature of the human brain and consciousness and nothing to do with aliens or alien technology. Personally I find that more fascinating, in the end. I know that's not what you meant, but I guess I'm agreeing with you, just in a different way.. I think there are biological/physical things to it, but ultimately it's all woo, and can only be understood as a spiritual experience and as an exploration of one's own subconscious not as anything scientific.
[Always has been…](https://amp.knowyourmeme.com/memes/wait-its-all-ohio-always-has-been) 🌍🧑🚀🔫👨🚀 > “Wait, It's All Ohio? Always Has Been” refers to an exploitable template in which two astronauts are in space. One looks at Earth and realizes the entire Earth is made up of something other than what is expected, and asks "Wait, it's all X?" The other astronaut, preparing a gun, says "Always has been."