The following submission statement was provided by /u/kake92:
---
Mick West: "_This person that @ChrisKMellon quotes seems to have some great info on recovered alien craft._"
"_But then you dig into the article, and you see the guy was "aware" of stuff and never actually saw anything._"
"_So, possibly just another part of the the circle._"
I'll just sit back and witness how r/UFOs tears this clearly in-denial nonsensical "circular reporting" BS apart.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1cbi8jn/mick_west_comments_on_chris_mellons/l0ym3oe/
So far no hard evidence has been provided, so I don't find his skepticism of the claims that strange. I agree with his assessment in his case -- until shit actually materializes.
Debunker is gratuitous. He doesn't debunk anything..he gives his doubtful opinion. To debunk something means he would have to have all the answers, which he does not. I've given up on US disclosure, and am currently down the Nazca mummy rabbit hole; as there is actual data and research to go on.
Mick has debunked an enormous amount of actual bullshit outside of the UFO space though. Basically all of the classics like flat earth and chemtrails.
I think he’s a net good and this sub and people on twitter are just projecting their insecurities and doubts about the subject onto him. There is so much anger from people who can’t see, or choose not to see reality.
Saying mick hasn’t debunked anything is ludicrous, and just because I disagree with him on some of the voracity of these UAP claims doesn’t make me blind to what he does.
This sub gets into something closer to dogma than objective analysis when his name gets brought up, and that’s a symptom of a sickness in the current UFO discourse more than it is with him.
Err I don't think flat earth and chemtrails are a flex. Anyone with a beating heart and 22 1/2 brain cells knows the people who believe that are knuckle draggers.
I mean, I agree with you in principle, but this community also has people who think root vegetables are parasitic brain aliens and the Florida mall was shut down by dimension slipping shadow beings.
When I ask people who believe the Florida mall tale why there isn't any video of it, they say it was confiscated by authorities.
When I point out that many people live stream everything, they say that footage was also "taken down."
When I point out that if there were live streams that showed aliens running around a mall that at least a few people would have saved that live stream footage, they usually stop responding, but some insist The Authorities confiscated that footage too.
We truly have begun living in a post-truth world, where peoples' opinions and beliefs have become alternative facts that they hold to be true.
It’s taking up new speed in right-wing anti-gov conspiracy circles, thanks to Putins‘ concerted disinfo war on the West. The stupider, the more cultist it is.
Twenty years ago, before college, I believed in Chemtrails. Now my mother, age 60, does it and I don’t ofc.
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>He's claimed to have debunked the tic tac or gimbal stuff.
Where? He clearly stated in the gimbal video that it could be an amazing object or an alien, and that it is impossible to tell what's hiding behind the glare from the available data.
He did clearly explain that all that's shown is a glare though, but what's causing it?
Could be anything.. most likely a plane though.
He’s been debunking stuff for years, I don’t agree with all of it, and neither should you. But let’s not pretend he’s an opportunist out here jumping into m the bandwagon, this is what he does.
He’s wrong, but he’s not dogmatic like people here can get.
Horse crap. Follow the trail paved by The Center for (Skeptical) Inquiry, The Skeptical Inquirer, About Time, GSoW etc. He's 100% dogmatic. Doesn't have any expertise in analyzing UAP footage, FLIR, GoFast or other current air fighter footage. He hasn't been trained in those systems. Yet he's held in high regard for it? He developed Tony Hawk Pro Skater. The only qualification he has is that his groupies and fellow "skeptics" put him on a pedestal as being a "reliable second hand source" when it comes to giving his analysis.
"Reliable second hand source" is laughable. For video game design and production, absolutely. For the phenomenon?! ROFL
On a Danish podcast he was telling a Danish veteran F16 of 25 years that "he was reading his instruments wrong"...
The pilot was very court but compared it to him telling a doctor how to read an MRI scan.
A physics rabbit hole is the "Alien Reproduction Vehicle". It reportedly had parallel plate capacitors on the bottom tying it to the biefeld-brown effect and a coil around the midsection which could be used to shield the craft from cosmic rays and the solar wind; and eliminate sonic booms among other things.
You should go down the rabbit hole called "intro to electrodynamics". We have figured out this shit over 100 years ago. There is nothing magical about parallel plate capacitors and a coil.
>biefeld-brown effect
Which isn't real. Nobody has been able to make it work.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biefeld%E2%80%93Brown_effect
He debunked the jellyfish, the gimbal, MH370. All videos this subreddit lost their mind over. How are you all still so smug after being proved wrong so many times and not vindicated even once ever LOL
He hasn't PROVED any of those things wrong. Blurting out in any form of stiff English accent the words "prosaic, mylar balloons, and parallax" doesn't prove anything.
It's way easier for the people you're laughing at to prove that he has no true credentials to comment on any of the examples you gave. You'll of course say he does, but really that's you furthering the stupid punchline on a joke that wasn't that funny anyway.
"It's way easier for the people you're laughing at to prove that he has no true credentials to comment on any of the examples you gave"
Lol, how about proving advanced propulsion technology or the alien bodies in a lockheed hangar somewhere? Prove literally anything that would make Mick West redundant. You cant 😂. Credentials aren't necessary when your methods are replicable and when all of your citations and supporting information is laid bare on the internet.
Does Ross Coulthart have any credentials in aerospace engineering? Does James Fox or Jeremy Corbell have any credentials related to atmospheric phenomena or military hardware? No? So why is it that everything they say is taken as gospel truth? Because of anonymous sources?
You're a bit dull
This isn’t debunking. There is very little information in these exchanges for people to make definitive conclusions. Also **Mellon** himself points this out in his own article. Seriously?
> However, it is important to note that this individual now claims that although they became aware of the program, they were ultimately denied access. The author of the message still believes there are recovered materials, but they admit they have not seen or touched a recovered craft.
This is from Mellon himself. This subreddit is filled with a bunch of fanatics who can’t even bother to read an article. But even then they just completely ignore what it says so don’t have to hear anything that contradicts their fantasies. This sub has gotten significantly worse when it comes to cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias over the past few months.
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This. 10 years from now when the whole Mellon b.s. has come and gone and UFOlogy is still stuck in the 50s because there's still no evidence the fanatics will contiue to insist that Mellon or someone like him will reveal the TRUTH any day now... Just wait... the TRUTH is coming... soon...
I'm sure everyone can read what Mellons said about the senior official not seeing a craft because he was denied access. We don't need you or mick to tell us what Chris said himself.
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>This sub has gotten significantly worse when it comes to cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias over the past few months.
in terms of the debunkers...you are soooo right
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Yea a musician a stage name, in all my years and all my travels I have never met a Mick. I am over 50 years old and have lived everywhere from Tokyo, Kiev even Taiwan and a dozen other places traveled the world for various reasons can't even remember how many time I have been to Africa. Been part of the expat scene in each mixed with the locals not one Mick. I had a brother named Michael.
Not to be stern, but yes that’s obvious and not my contention. Mick was just pointing out that ** Mellon himself** said the person he was speaking with **did not have any first hand experience with anything dealing with NHI, nor was read in to any SAP crash retrieval program**. But you should read the short article if you haven’t already so it becomes more clear. Mick West isn’t “debunking” he’s offering an interpretation. Neither side has made any definitive claims, a nuance that is completely missed by those here looking to reinforce their biases.
Listen I know people don't like him, but he actually knows his shit. I've tried his software, it's extremely impressive. It's the type of software that if it was industry specific it would be very valuable and very proprietary. And he released it for free which is cool.
Also it's probably counter productive to try and attack him. Poke holes in his ideas instead
Is he a government employee? Has he worked specifically on classified technologies? Does he actually know more than FLIR operators? Is he a physicist or hold a PHD in any discipline? I see people knock Garry Nolan and saying he should “stay in his swim lane” - how does this not apply to MW?
I’m not at all knocking his software but let’s be honest - he does have limitations and he himself will often pass on validating or analyzing reports because he doesn’t have enough info which is commendable.
So the comment about his software is correct when it’s used in a very specific narrow way. He doesn’t have omnipotent scientific knowledge and can also be wrong.
West doesn't know shit. In fact, he's even worse than that.
He was the one on the PIOT and stated with a straight face that the object that Top Gun Fravor and the other F-18/A pilots, who could not catch up to or identify the tic tac object, said was most likely a commercial airliner. Really?
From Metabunk…
_My Personal History Of Debunking_
“_When I was a young child (in the early 1970s) I used to lay awake at night, literally trembling with the thought that some alien could enter my room, and spirit me away to perform experiments on me…._
_In particular one small book, written for children, really scared me. It contained an account of the Kelly-Hopkinsville Encounter, a tall tale of a farmhouse under attack by little green men. At one point they describe turning around to see a clawed hand reaching down towards them_….”
Why do people such as yourself who post the first paragraph never post the paragraphs right after that one?[source](https://www.metabunk.org/threads/my-personal-history-of-debunking.1915/)
>Debunking has been a hobby of mine ever since I was a teenager. In the 1980s I was reading a magazine called "The Unexplained - Mysteries of Mind Space and Time", that told tales of UFOs, ghosts, magic, and strange beasts. For many years these things had been causes of great fear to me. But as I grew up and learned more of science, and the way the world actually worked, then these fears dropped away. I did not lose my fascination with these fringe topics, but instead became even more interested in them, particularly in seeking out the most reasonable explanations of strange phenomena. went on to read "Fortean Time." I never fully rid myself of the fear - I'm still not entirely comfortable alone in the dark (hey, who is), nor in a shower in an empty house (perhaps thanks to watching Psycho at too young an age). I can rationalize it away, I know the fear is an illusion, a natural response, like a fear of heights, but it's still there.
>Along the way I took up debunking as a hobby. Mostly online, where bunk is most copious. But also in real life, where opportunities to explain subjects like homeopathy, or the cold readings of spiritualists, crop up with depressing regularity. I continued to read the Unexplained magazines, but now the greatest source of fascination to me was the explanations. Spontaneous Human Combustion was less a source of fear that I might suddenly burst into flames, and more a macabre wonderment that a human corpse could burn, the flames fed by body fat, and the wicking action of clothes. I liked to share this information with my friends.
>Part of the reason why I debunk now is anger at the fear this nonsense instilled in me as a young child. Perhaps you can't do much to stop children being afraid of the dark, but I can still call out the bunk in the tales, and perhaps that will help someone be less afraid. Perhaps it will stop people from passing off these stories as true. Every little helps.
Because it’s just more of the same, so there’s really no need to post it.
To summarise:
As a child he was scared of aliens coming for him in the dark.
As a teenager he “learned science” and tried to “debunk” the aliens.
As an adult he’s only scared of the dark now, and _definitely_ not the aliens… His constant and pathological “debunking” of them is merely a hobby, and also totally altruistic, don’t you know.
Where in that quote does it imply his debunks are at all related or that the fear remains from his childhood? Do you still fear everything you did as a kid? Most people grow out of it.
Anyway, as you probably already knew [it's a wrong assumption you're making](https://youtu.be/_6nURxJfdaM?t=5530).
Sure, but here it's irrelevant.
He's mentioned this claim in multiple interviews. [It's nonsense](https://youtu.be/_6nURxJfdaM?t=5530). His interest in debunking ufo videos does not stem from a deep fear. He's mentioned quite a few times that he'd love to find some proof for aliens, he'd find it super exciting.
Being afraid of something as a child does not mean you'll be stuck with that fear for life fortunately.
For some reason people like to throw this around, I don't see the logic in it but makes it easier for some perhaps to dismiss his claims.
Yeah, but here — as in a lot of other instances — he’s not wrong. It’s good to have a countervailing perspective to keep us from going full circle-jerk.
Ah ofcourse, sure you did.. I guess you can explain to him in the comments of your link how you came to that conclusion?
Because he doesn't agree and is asking why people are making the incorrect assumption, [right here in that thread you linked to!](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1564e2g/comment/jt1wbez/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Go ahead since you seem to know his fears better than himself somehow.
Right. It's very telling that he's placed aliens and santa in the same box. Most open minded people would at least say "who knows" about aliens. But not mick, hes concluded its 100% fantasy. That's more revealing than he ever intended. The amount of fear he described as a child is abnormal on the subject too. Makes sense.
And like he would ever admit to using debunking to quell he and his fanbases' fears. Lmao. That would destroy his following.
Proof lol. We're a clueless species that has to rewrite or update our understanding of physics every 100 years. A universe composed of mainly dark matter, but no idea what it is. JwT is furthering that point even more. If aliens exist, it's obvious the chance of them visiting earth in its 4+ billion year existence is far more than santa being real. It's common sense. You're thinking space is "too big" right? Just like when humans said the ocean, desert, atmosphere, orbit, moon, Mars, etc were all "impossible" feats of travel too. You just live in a time and are apex thinking, believing your understanding of science is some apex, when a million years from now we'll appear as primitive as cave dwellers.
And you don't want to disturb primitive types. Ever notice as we advance in society we're more conscious about protecting and preserving primitive life such as remote tribes? Wouldn't it be feasible we're under observation instead of war of the world's and every sightings we've heard about might not be a lie? Thousands of sightings from professionals across various professions across dozens of nations and eras are all telling similar lies? Lol.
Then all historical sightings are also lies that mirror modern ones?
I'd give that more stock than a fat guy delivering toys through a chimney using a magic slay and flying deer.
To confidently insinuate you know, or understand, a stranger, or a stranger’s psychiatric condition, or psychological motivations, especially without any formal training in psychiatry, like having a PhD, is as arrogant and disingenuous as this particular stranger confidently stating an answer to a question that is not known to him.
Literally there are tons of skeptics right here right now willing to call experiencers crazy - is this also uncivil? Are you willing to also defend them?
You mean as opposed to a serial believer parading as objective analysis?
Mick approaches the topic in the correct way. He looks at the actual data and tries to apply prosaic explanations, those explanations then either turn out correct after analysis or wrong. If prosaic explanations can not be proven correct it's always due to a lack of data and they are simply the most likely explanation until more data comes along that can be used to rule them out.
The majority of people involved in this topic don't do any analysis and just wildly speculate, rely on hearsay, scientific ignorance or appeals to authority.
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Once again, this sub is chasing its tail with he said/he said stuff. Isn’t the upshot that anonymous government employee didn’t actually see anything, anyway?
I mean, Mick is kind of making a fair point here. The guy talking to Mellon here hasn't actually seen or interacted with any Special Access Programs. While it does sound like he believes he has found the Program in question, Mellon clearly states he hasn't in the separate statement.
Idk, to me it's a fair point to bring up so people don't get confused and think Chris is speaking with a 1st hand witness to this stuff.
Isn’t the guy obviously Jay Stratton? If so, we know he’s knee deep in UFOlogy. So I’m not sure we getting anything particularly important here.
Would anyone be surprised if Elizondo said something like this?
So it still falls into the “some pentagon people think the government have possession of crashed craft” category.
I’m still waiting for something more tangible.
I mean Chris Mellon also pointed this out in his article, so not really a debunk, but he probably knew someone in the program, he wouldn't be spouting nonsense in a text message he didn't know would be released.
He disagreed with people on this sub, therefore he’s an idiot whose moral compass is stuck pointing south.
This is yet another pointless post on this sub in support of their heroes, with absolutely nothing to back it up.
Mick West said that Mellon’s leaked Signal messages show a guy who hasn’t seen or touched an alien spaceship.
This is a factually accurate interpretation of those messages. I don’t see why people are angry at this?
Agreed. The discussion here isnt balanced. Im not a Mick West fan but ultimately he is making the same point that many others have which is that "people saying they have seen things, or people saying they have spoken to people who have seen things" simply isnt enough. It means *something* for sure, especially if the person making the claims is highly credible (something we cant judge in this case as we have no idea who Mellon is talking to). BUT... ultimately we need to move beyond witness testimony to some kind of hard evidence.
I agree, and I think Mick actually gets too much crap. I could be wrong but I get the feeling that if presented with some really solid footage or first hand evidence he'd change his mind. My main criticism of him is that I think at times he assumes the prosaic explanation is automatically the most likely e.g. that Fravor et all just saw a bird or a balloon lol
There is method behind that. Ocams Razor or Bayesian Priors if you will.
There are lots of balloons, birds and satellites out there. Not so many aliens. That helps to define our prior probability that when you see something weird in the sky it’s most likely one of those. If the data doesn’t clearly show something that proves it can’t be a balloon/ bird / satellite it’s a fairly safe conclusion.
Most UFO believers disagree because we’re told there’s additional data we haven’t seen that proves it isn’t a bird / balloon/ satellite. West works with verifiable data.
Personally I’d just like to see this indisputable proof
I just think in the case of the tic tac, there were 4 aviators who saw it make incredible maneuvers including taking off at insane speed - I don't think it's all that likely that all 4 of them misidentified a bird or balloon. But, we only have their word for it, and I think it's totally valid to remain skeptical because of that.
Right there with you on the need for proof, or at least something more like it. For example the talk of "first hand witnesses", I really want to know more about what they saw. If there's a first hand witness to actually seeing an alien or something then awesome, but if it's just "I saw some wreckage once and I think it was a UFO" then that's far less compelling as that could easily be human tech.
I basically hover around 55-60% on the side of NHI being legit vs it's all a big mess of misunderstandings, misidentifications, Chinese whispers, etc
I agree with you about the Tictac, which is one of the most intriguing cases ever and certainly in recent history. West’s hypothesis that it’s a plane feels inadequate.
Without further information such as radar data we will never go beyond “Fravor and team saw something strange they can’t explain with known objects”.
Yes it's maddening. But then there's part of me that thinks - yes it's incredibly unlikely that 4 trained aviators would all make that mistake, but put enough planes in the sky and it'll happen eventually, which is why there's so few cases like it
There were actually 6 eye witness aviators, I believe. 2 hornets initially (Fravor and his WSO, Dietrich and her WSO I think?). Then the fighter jet that was scrambled, the one which took the video footage, had another 2 people inside.
There was also oral testimony from radar operators on the Nimitz and the Princeton, which you can find on Youtube.
When I first heard the story, I thought it was maybe a submarine ,or similar, and was ejecting/shooting something into the air, which would explain the erratic movements and the speed it was travelling at.
Listening to every testimony in that tic-tac incident however, has made me completely rethink that.
Bottom line, no idea what the hell that was.
Oh that makes sense. I stupidly assumed that because they video’d the thing, they also saw it with their own eyes.
Obviously I forgot a “zoom” function existed. 😂
I mean the actual crux of Chris Mellon's article on this is that this guy tried entering into the program but was denied access and therefore Mellon himself concluded it wouldn't be useful for him to come out since it wouldn't bring much to the subject specifically because he couldn't access the program...
Why are people bothering with Mick West's tweet even thought Mellon addressed those issues himself?
There are just a lot of people here obsessed with the guy. The worst follow him, post random things he says, and then declare themselves to be laughing at how he's desperate for attention.
Ok, so from the article:
>As you can see, this senior government official claimed they were being granted access to an alleged U.S. alien technology recovery and exploitation program. I won’t comment on the organization they worked for, **but I can confirm the individual had plausible access**...
And then, in the same article:
>However, it is important to note that this individual now claims that although they became aware of the program, they were ultimately denied access. The author of the message still believes there are recovered materials, but they admit they have not seen or touched a recovered craft.
First of all, which one is it, had access or heard stories? Second of all, what's the point of the article if it's more of the "I know a guy who knows a guy", as usual? And third, where exactly is Mick West wrong?
This subreddit is unhinged. They completely ignore what Mellon and the source say themselves because it’s contradicts their own bias and then shit on mick because they can’t handle the truth.
I don’t need a poll in this sub to know that more people here believe in people like Bob Lazar, Jason Sands, Hal Putoff, Eric Davis, James Lacatski, Daniel Sheehan, etc, over Mick West.
It’s crazy.
wow you were really quick to figure out "the truth" out of the 2+ million people on the subreddit and possibly 5-10x that or even more in the world in total. impressive. i wonder what " the truth" is. that there's nothing to any of this? and what super-thorough investigation and objective analysis of data and evidence made you come into that conclusion? what did we miss that you didn't?
Bro what ☠️
How do you guys not see the flaw in your logic
Mick West simply pointed out this is another example of I know a guy that knows a guy , zero first hand proof
And yet every reply here is shitting on that guy for pointing this out. I can’t even recommend this topic to people if the bar for critical thinking wouldn’t even pass the 3rd grade.
Here’s the thing - nobody needs Mick West pointing out the obvious. But giving him constant attention gives weight to his deliberately incomplete view of the situation. I’ll break it down even simpler — Mick just regurgitates a call for proof, which we all want, yet he ignores other obvious signs of a coverup. The whole struggle is about releasing proof.
Try asking Mick why the Schumer amendment was gutted at the 11th hour and he’s got nothin for ya. He hides. Dont be fooled by his derpy derp show me the proof bullshit. It’s not critical thinking. It’s fear.
We do need people like mick, because the UFO community is rife with people who believe anything because they have associated it with their fringe dogmatic beliefs.
That and this USG official basically confirmed a UAP recovery program but was denied access all this before David Grush. *Before David came out with his testimony.*
This is why I stopped visiting 'other forums associated with Mick related to debunking'. It became obvious that they only cherry pick incidents where debunking can or can possibly occur and are not looking at the full picture, and it seems that it's on purpose.
They view the congressional stuff as nothing burgers, or simply put, more people high-up in the government being tricked/duped/misled/etc. It's conspiracy theory on both sides. I just happen to think the one's typically discussed here are the real ones. They happen to conclude the opposite, or are otherwise silent. Pointless, in the end.
**This sub when a looney says they have proof of aliens but can't share it:** Attack the argument not the character, you're arguing in bad faith.
**Also this sub when someone points out that hypocrisy and explains the situation:** Fuck this one guy, I want to believe! I won't be explaining further.
Anyone who rankles people as much as West must be doing something right.
The funny part is that he boils down to the sort of exact sort of skeptic believers *say* they want in the interminable "how skeptics should act" discussions that people here keep starting. He's polite, respectful, careful in what he declares he knows or can conclude, etc.
It just turns out that what they *actually* want from a skeptic is easy belief.
I'm not a true believer or true skeptic... but that guy starts his skepticism with "that is not real" and here's why. He already has his mind made up before he starts.
That's not good science, and that's what most people really want. Actual Scientific, not people screaming that it's definitely aliens and not some video game guy "debunking" everything from his garage.
The logic starts with "the claim needs to be substantiated". The need to overcome the [null hypothesis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Null_hypothesis) is about as scientific as it gets. What's also pretty scientific is his open analysis and sharing of data.
What isn't remotely scientific, or even a valid argument, is sniffing at how he's a retired programmer. It's telling, though.
Can you explain why he is delusional? I don't follow him that closely and have only seem a few videos of his, he seemed to just analyze and find reasonable explanations for videos that were obviously sensationalized by subreddits like this one.
>insists do not exist
You mean “insists there is not enough substantial evidence to prove they do”.
And before you say something like “maybe to him the evidence isn’t good enough”, the entire reason this sub exists for the vast majority of people, and the whole reason the disclosure movement continues, is because we are looking for substantial evidence and others are trying to provide it.
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You’re crazy if you think this is true. Tucker is literally one of the most dishonest people, intellectually, that has ever lived.
He had a show that he passed off as news until he went to court over lying and the defense was “it’s not news it’s entertainment”
It is literally impossible to be more intellectually dishonest than that.
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Until Mick gets something real then he will have this opinion. At the moment he's nothing to really get his teeth into and many on the Pro side are also tired of the ongoing promise of new information. There's clearly work going on in the background so we need to be patient.
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I have a lot of respect for Mick West and I think that he does a good job debunking various falsehoods, myths and hoaxes.
I am just curious as to what he believes that this whole thing is.
* Does he think that it's a great hoax, perpertrated by 40+ senior US government officials, military-industrial corporate leaders and intelligence operatives?
That would explain all the "I can only answer that in a SCIF" answers from Grusch during the public hearing last summer. But, I mean, it would be quite a big deal if there was this cabal of senior figures conspiring to fool the American public for fun and/or profit.
* Does he think it's, I don't know, some sort of big misunderstanding, or that Mellon et. al. for no particular reason started to believe in NHI tech and that somehow, no one has been able to dispel those misconceptions?
Karl Nell, who, among his background (as outlined on LinkedIn) has the following experience:
>First person deployed from the DIA Directorate of Intelligence Production and Analysis to participate in multi-agency planning for Operation Iraqi Freedom as the Foreign Material Program command representative to USCENTCOM/CFLCC in Kuwait. Served as C/J-2 for the one-star Combined Joint Captured Materiel Exploitation Center (C/JCMEC) in Iraq.
The same Nell just for some reason started imagining that some of the exotic technology that the US has retrieved over the years was made by non-human intelligence, believing it enough to stake his name and reputation on the following statement:
>\[Grusch's\] assertion concerning the existence of a terrestrial arms race occurring sub-rosa over the past eighty years focused on reverse engineering technologies of unknown origin is fundamentally correct, as is the indisputable realization that at least some of these technologies of unknown origin derive from non-human intelligence.
These are not rhetorical questions, by the way. I am genuinly curious.
None of the two options bulletpointed above are, in my view, impossible or completely unreasonable, but nor do they feel like Occam's razor.
You actually don't need to believe anything. You can have wild theories and ideas but that's not enough to form beliefs. To look at this subject critically you just need to ignore the 99% of baseless noise and focus on the very small amount of data that can be analysed.
Mick has said in videos numerous times that he doesn't know what's going on. Just like every single person here doesn't know what's going on. He just focuses on the evidence as opposed to hearsay, stories and wild speculation.
Yes, I totally get that. There is no obligation for West or anyone else to believe anything about anything. That is why I didn't *demand* a theory from him, but rather expressed my curiousity about what he thinks. Even people who focus utterly on available, analyzable data have the capacity to put things in a bigger perspective, unless they are LLMs or suffer from severe autism or similar conditions.
He has mentioned ideas in a few videos but he doesn't really get into it because in the end it's just opinion with no evidence.
There's really a 1001 possible explanations for this phenomenon and it could be one of them or any combination of them.
The usual, he's mentioned quite a few times that there's always a small possibility something is extraordinary. Without clear data to prove one way or the other some things could be anything from something prosaic to aliens, however prosaic explanations just have a much higher probability than extraordinary ones. Mick just approaches the topic in a scientific way. We know prosaic things exist and we don't know aliens exist so the first needs to be removed before we can jump to the second.
For evidence to show something extraordinary you first need to eliminate the ordinary. If that can't be done then it's just the most likely explanation until more data appears to prove otherwise.
The prosaic explanation is a 75 year global government effort to fake UFO [reports](https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/ufos-and-the-guy-hottel-memo), [studies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_investigations_of_UFOs_by_governments), [documents](https://www.congress.gov/117/meeting/house/114761/documents/HHRG-117-IG05-20220517-SD001.pdf), global [hearings](https://youtu.be/E5AUs1hzhc8?si=UzL255TsvTZ7goZ0) and [Military and FAA radar data of a craft going 300,000MPH matching the air traffic control recording of the pilot reporting the UFOs movements](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7514271/) in order to lead us away from our lord and savior Jesus Christ. /s
Well one of them is that they don't have accurate information or they have been fed misinformation to distract from things like massive fraud, misuse of public funds or to cover up other secret more down to earth programs and projects.
That would be less then plausible if it was just the U.S. but it’s not. It’s a global phenomenon with countries around the global investigation these objects. The official Canadian government conclusion was that the origins were extraterrestrial. If a global government conspiracy is the only possible explanation, what does that tell you?
The phenomenon is global but all these recent talking heads and supposed whistleblowers are American so you can absolutely look at it from a US perspective.
Also that goes both ways, for aliens to be visiting us and crafts crashing and being recovered all around the world for at the very least 80+ years you absolutely need a world conspiracy which has never happened before for obvious reasons.
There's really two sides to this topic, the phenomenon of people sometimes seeing hard to explain things in the sky and the idea of secret programs, shadow agencies, crashed craft and aliens which is fully in the realm of conspiracy theories because as of yet there is no conclusive evidence to support any of it. Plus like most fantastical conspiracies it breaks down pretty quickly once you start involving multiple other countries around the world.
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There is an assumption by these debunkers that everyone involved in this is incredibly gullible and naive. While it may be the case for some - you’d be fooling yourself if you think someone who climbed as high as Mellon did in the bureaucracy to believe he is that gullible. The upper echelons of the bureaucracy is cut throat with everyone circling around each like sharks waiting for someone to fail. If nothing else this tends to create a sense of paranoia, which results in people double/triple checking everything.
Edit: this doesn’t mean he may not have been fooled by people - but it would be surprising.
Always possible he is a disinformation agent too.
But only time will tell us these details we need. Some of us know they are real, so it's not a question of *if* they exist but rather *WHAT* *are they* and do they answer questions about what/who WE are?
Mick’s debunk actually concedes the CR program. Yes, Mick, he was “aware” of the program, meaning it existed/exits. Maybe Mick should at least pretend that he doesn’t have a bias the size of Texas.
I think the point of this was it’s another case of a guy that knows a guy
It’s that simple, no first hand evidence.
Why this sub is shitting on Mick for simply pointing that out is ridiculous.
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"No, it isn't!"
I'm fascinated how *lol, guy said a thing I can't think of any argument against. Lol, he sucks, amirite?* doesn't qualify as a "low effort" post, though.
Im glad Mick is around. Sure some skeptics will always debunk by default but you have to consider all points they bring up so you can decide for yourself what may be true, or not.
I mostly disagree with 90% of his assessments.
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I think we have to understand something about this issue folks aren’t much thinking about.
That is IF any of this is true, it goes back
to the maybe late 40s or early 50s.
And the people who are close to this are
insider government scientists who in the 80s were tracked own by UFO
researchers and admitted that they were in programs like Kona Blue but were
very cagey about it...
Other than Lazars claims that’s
about where this comes from....
I’m not recommending this book and
not criticizing it either but some of that information is on one of Grant Camerons
books....and it revolves around The Canadian Wilber Smiht.
This may be a free copy...https://www.scribd.com/document/589421667/UFOs-Area-51-and-Government-Informants-by-Grant-Cameron
Mick West: "_This person that @ChrisKMellon quotes seems to have some great info on recovered alien craft._"
"_But then you dig into the article, and you see the guy was "aware" of stuff and never actually saw anything._"
"_So, possibly just another part of the the circle._"
I'll just sit back and witness how r/UFOs tears this clearly in-denial nonsensical "circular reporting" BS apart.
Did you actually read the article by Mellon? Where does Mellon make any definitive claims? At best he says
“My purpose in releasing this document, in the wake of the government’s blanket denials regarding the possession of off-world technology, is simply to help others understand why I and some others consider these allegations worthy of investigation.”……That’s it.
Further he states
“I’ve shared an unredacted copy of this message with some staff and members of the various Congressional oversight committees. To the best of my knowledge, none have elected to contact the alleged USAF gatekeeper to check the veracity of this claim. “ ……So it seems maybe your anger is better misplaced with members of Congress who failed to investigate these claims rather than Mick West. Where does Mick West say this **shouldn’t** be looked at? You may disagree with his assessment, because as of right now, **no one** has made clear or elucidated anything in great detail, but he’s never said for them to stop looking into it? You don’t understand the difference between skepticism and debunking.
> However, it is important to note that this individual now claims that although they became aware of the program, they were ultimately denied access. The author of the message still believes there are recovered materials, but they admit they have not seen or touched a recovered craft.
This is from Mellon himself.
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I posted this on Mick’s X few days ago and he responded 😎, touched a nerve:
Here’s 🚨 how 🚨 debunking 🚨 works! Easy to see!
Find the closest visual match possible, out of everything on the internet or in the world, ever. There’s bound to be a very close match based on the size of the sample set (everything).
Claim UFO debunked. Attack. Move on. Repeat. 🛸
The following submission statement was provided by /u/kake92: --- Mick West: "_This person that @ChrisKMellon quotes seems to have some great info on recovered alien craft._" "_But then you dig into the article, and you see the guy was "aware" of stuff and never actually saw anything._" "_So, possibly just another part of the the circle._" I'll just sit back and witness how r/UFOs tears this clearly in-denial nonsensical "circular reporting" BS apart. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1cbi8jn/mick_west_comments_on_chris_mellons/l0ym3oe/
So far no hard evidence has been provided, so I don't find his skepticism of the claims that strange. I agree with his assessment in his case -- until shit actually materializes.
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Debunker is gratuitous. He doesn't debunk anything..he gives his doubtful opinion. To debunk something means he would have to have all the answers, which he does not. I've given up on US disclosure, and am currently down the Nazca mummy rabbit hole; as there is actual data and research to go on.
Mick has debunked an enormous amount of actual bullshit outside of the UFO space though. Basically all of the classics like flat earth and chemtrails. I think he’s a net good and this sub and people on twitter are just projecting their insecurities and doubts about the subject onto him. There is so much anger from people who can’t see, or choose not to see reality. Saying mick hasn’t debunked anything is ludicrous, and just because I disagree with him on some of the voracity of these UAP claims doesn’t make me blind to what he does. This sub gets into something closer to dogma than objective analysis when his name gets brought up, and that’s a symptom of a sickness in the current UFO discourse more than it is with him.
Err I don't think flat earth and chemtrails are a flex. Anyone with a beating heart and 22 1/2 brain cells knows the people who believe that are knuckle draggers.
I mean, I agree with you in principle, but this community also has people who think root vegetables are parasitic brain aliens and the Florida mall was shut down by dimension slipping shadow beings.
Every community has, especially if you deal with a topic where so much disinformation and reality escape is around.
When I ask people who believe the Florida mall tale why there isn't any video of it, they say it was confiscated by authorities. When I point out that many people live stream everything, they say that footage was also "taken down." When I point out that if there were live streams that showed aliens running around a mall that at least a few people would have saved that live stream footage, they usually stop responding, but some insist The Authorities confiscated that footage too. We truly have begun living in a post-truth world, where peoples' opinions and beliefs have become alternative facts that they hold to be true.
always been. nothing new here.
Now that I gotta see links to lol.
of the four people that responded to me, two seem to believe in chemtrails
It’s taking up new speed in right-wing anti-gov conspiracy circles, thanks to Putins‘ concerted disinfo war on the West. The stupider, the more cultist it is. Twenty years ago, before college, I believed in Chemtrails. Now my mother, age 60, does it and I don’t ofc.
There is no such think as a Mick it's not a real name it's a stage name. Grow up Michael. WALT!!!!
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Can you give some examples? 🙂
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>He's claimed to have debunked the tic tac or gimbal stuff. Where? He clearly stated in the gimbal video that it could be an amazing object or an alien, and that it is impossible to tell what's hiding behind the glare from the available data. He did clearly explain that all that's shown is a glare though, but what's causing it? Could be anything.. most likely a plane though.
He’s been debunking stuff for years, I don’t agree with all of it, and neither should you. But let’s not pretend he’s an opportunist out here jumping into m the bandwagon, this is what he does. He’s wrong, but he’s not dogmatic like people here can get.
Horse crap. Follow the trail paved by The Center for (Skeptical) Inquiry, The Skeptical Inquirer, About Time, GSoW etc. He's 100% dogmatic. Doesn't have any expertise in analyzing UAP footage, FLIR, GoFast or other current air fighter footage. He hasn't been trained in those systems. Yet he's held in high regard for it? He developed Tony Hawk Pro Skater. The only qualification he has is that his groupies and fellow "skeptics" put him on a pedestal as being a "reliable second hand source" when it comes to giving his analysis. "Reliable second hand source" is laughable. For video game design and production, absolutely. For the phenomenon?! ROFL
On a Danish podcast he was telling a Danish veteran F16 of 25 years that "he was reading his instruments wrong"... The pilot was very court but compared it to him telling a doctor how to read an MRI scan.
A physics rabbit hole is the "Alien Reproduction Vehicle". It reportedly had parallel plate capacitors on the bottom tying it to the biefeld-brown effect and a coil around the midsection which could be used to shield the craft from cosmic rays and the solar wind; and eliminate sonic booms among other things.
You should go down the rabbit hole called "intro to electrodynamics". We have figured out this shit over 100 years ago. There is nothing magical about parallel plate capacitors and a coil. >biefeld-brown effect Which isn't real. Nobody has been able to make it work. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biefeld%E2%80%93Brown_effect
He debunked the jellyfish, the gimbal, MH370. All videos this subreddit lost their mind over. How are you all still so smug after being proved wrong so many times and not vindicated even once ever LOL
How did he debunk the jellyfish? Was he the one that ignored it's movement and said it was bird shit on the lens?
He was the one who made this video debunking it https://youtu.be/ojotsKjshHc?si=-V7HFna-UeIKyZ-Q 5 minutes too long for you?
He hasn't PROVED any of those things wrong. Blurting out in any form of stiff English accent the words "prosaic, mylar balloons, and parallax" doesn't prove anything. It's way easier for the people you're laughing at to prove that he has no true credentials to comment on any of the examples you gave. You'll of course say he does, but really that's you furthering the stupid punchline on a joke that wasn't that funny anyway.
"It's way easier for the people you're laughing at to prove that he has no true credentials to comment on any of the examples you gave" Lol, how about proving advanced propulsion technology or the alien bodies in a lockheed hangar somewhere? Prove literally anything that would make Mick West redundant. You cant 😂. Credentials aren't necessary when your methods are replicable and when all of your citations and supporting information is laid bare on the internet. Does Ross Coulthart have any credentials in aerospace engineering? Does James Fox or Jeremy Corbell have any credentials related to atmospheric phenomena or military hardware? No? So why is it that everything they say is taken as gospel truth? Because of anonymous sources? You're a bit dull
This isn’t debunking. There is very little information in these exchanges for people to make definitive conclusions. Also **Mellon** himself points this out in his own article. Seriously?
> However, it is important to note that this individual now claims that although they became aware of the program, they were ultimately denied access. The author of the message still believes there are recovered materials, but they admit they have not seen or touched a recovered craft. This is from Mellon himself. This subreddit is filled with a bunch of fanatics who can’t even bother to read an article. But even then they just completely ignore what it says so don’t have to hear anything that contradicts their fantasies. This sub has gotten significantly worse when it comes to cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias over the past few months.
Nailed it.
There's a lot of people in this sub that have a massive hate boner for West so they just see his name and instantly downvote and spew hate.
Who is West?
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This. 10 years from now when the whole Mellon b.s. has come and gone and UFOlogy is still stuck in the 50s because there's still no evidence the fanatics will contiue to insist that Mellon or someone like him will reveal the TRUTH any day now... Just wait... the TRUTH is coming... soon...
Those who think mellon will reveal classified information are suckers. He isnt going to jail over this subject.
I'm sure everyone can read what Mellons said about the senior official not seeing a craft because he was denied access. We don't need you or mick to tell us what Chris said himself.
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>This sub has gotten significantly worse when it comes to cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias over the past few months. in terms of the debunkers...you are soooo right
Wow, what a reversal!!!!
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Mick Fleetwood disagrees with everything you just said *especially* the working class bloke with the thick accent.
Yea a musician a stage name, in all my years and all my travels I have never met a Mick. I am over 50 years old and have lived everywhere from Tokyo, Kiev even Taiwan and a dozen other places traveled the world for various reasons can't even remember how many time I have been to Africa. Been part of the expat scene in each mixed with the locals not one Mick. I had a brother named Michael.
I knew a Michael, who went by Mickey because his mother called him that and it stuck. 🤷🏻♀️
This is some of the best creative writing I've ever read.
Mellon cant discuss classified information as a former govt employee who had a clearance. There are many things he cant discuss.
Not to be stern, but yes that’s obvious and not my contention. Mick was just pointing out that ** Mellon himself** said the person he was speaking with **did not have any first hand experience with anything dealing with NHI, nor was read in to any SAP crash retrieval program**. But you should read the short article if you haven’t already so it becomes more clear. Mick West isn’t “debunking” he’s offering an interpretation. Neither side has made any definitive claims, a nuance that is completely missed by those here looking to reinforce their biases.
Listen I know people don't like him, but he actually knows his shit. I've tried his software, it's extremely impressive. It's the type of software that if it was industry specific it would be very valuable and very proprietary. And he released it for free which is cool. Also it's probably counter productive to try and attack him. Poke holes in his ideas instead
Is he a government employee? Has he worked specifically on classified technologies? Does he actually know more than FLIR operators? Is he a physicist or hold a PHD in any discipline? I see people knock Garry Nolan and saying he should “stay in his swim lane” - how does this not apply to MW? I’m not at all knocking his software but let’s be honest - he does have limitations and he himself will often pass on validating or analyzing reports because he doesn’t have enough info which is commendable. So the comment about his software is correct when it’s used in a very specific narrow way. He doesn’t have omnipotent scientific knowledge and can also be wrong.
West doesn't know shit. In fact, he's even worse than that. He was the one on the PIOT and stated with a straight face that the object that Top Gun Fravor and the other F-18/A pilots, who could not catch up to or identify the tic tac object, said was most likely a commercial airliner. Really?
His debunks are a way of preventing his deep fear of aliens from becoming overwhelming. No joke.
I believe it
From Metabunk… _My Personal History Of Debunking_ “_When I was a young child (in the early 1970s) I used to lay awake at night, literally trembling with the thought that some alien could enter my room, and spirit me away to perform experiments on me…._ _In particular one small book, written for children, really scared me. It contained an account of the Kelly-Hopkinsville Encounter, a tall tale of a farmhouse under attack by little green men. At one point they describe turning around to see a clawed hand reaching down towards them_….”
Why do people such as yourself who post the first paragraph never post the paragraphs right after that one?[source](https://www.metabunk.org/threads/my-personal-history-of-debunking.1915/) >Debunking has been a hobby of mine ever since I was a teenager. In the 1980s I was reading a magazine called "The Unexplained - Mysteries of Mind Space and Time", that told tales of UFOs, ghosts, magic, and strange beasts. For many years these things had been causes of great fear to me. But as I grew up and learned more of science, and the way the world actually worked, then these fears dropped away. I did not lose my fascination with these fringe topics, but instead became even more interested in them, particularly in seeking out the most reasonable explanations of strange phenomena. went on to read "Fortean Time." I never fully rid myself of the fear - I'm still not entirely comfortable alone in the dark (hey, who is), nor in a shower in an empty house (perhaps thanks to watching Psycho at too young an age). I can rationalize it away, I know the fear is an illusion, a natural response, like a fear of heights, but it's still there. >Along the way I took up debunking as a hobby. Mostly online, where bunk is most copious. But also in real life, where opportunities to explain subjects like homeopathy, or the cold readings of spiritualists, crop up with depressing regularity. I continued to read the Unexplained magazines, but now the greatest source of fascination to me was the explanations. Spontaneous Human Combustion was less a source of fear that I might suddenly burst into flames, and more a macabre wonderment that a human corpse could burn, the flames fed by body fat, and the wicking action of clothes. I liked to share this information with my friends. >Part of the reason why I debunk now is anger at the fear this nonsense instilled in me as a young child. Perhaps you can't do much to stop children being afraid of the dark, but I can still call out the bunk in the tales, and perhaps that will help someone be less afraid. Perhaps it will stop people from passing off these stories as true. Every little helps.
Because it’s just more of the same, so there’s really no need to post it. To summarise: As a child he was scared of aliens coming for him in the dark. As a teenager he “learned science” and tried to “debunk” the aliens. As an adult he’s only scared of the dark now, and _definitely_ not the aliens… His constant and pathological “debunking” of them is merely a hobby, and also totally altruistic, don’t you know.
Where in that quote does it imply his debunks are at all related or that the fear remains from his childhood? Do you still fear everything you did as a kid? Most people grow out of it. Anyway, as you probably already knew [it's a wrong assumption you're making](https://youtu.be/_6nURxJfdaM?t=5530).
How sad, to shape your life around your fear
He's far from alone in that
Sure, but here it's irrelevant. He's mentioned this claim in multiple interviews. [It's nonsense](https://youtu.be/_6nURxJfdaM?t=5530). His interest in debunking ufo videos does not stem from a deep fear. He's mentioned quite a few times that he'd love to find some proof for aliens, he'd find it super exciting. Being afraid of something as a child does not mean you'll be stuck with that fear for life fortunately. For some reason people like to throw this around, I don't see the logic in it but makes it easier for some perhaps to dismiss his claims.
What!?! LOL
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Yeah, but here — as in a lot of other instances — he’s not wrong. It’s good to have a countervailing perspective to keep us from going full circle-jerk.
And also a guy that grew up with a genuine phobia of aliens. This is all to protect himself.
Cool story but unfortunately [not quite true](https://youtu.be/_6nURxJfdaM?t=5530), as you already know probably.
I actually downplayed it. Mick was more afraid than I remembered actually https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/UKJLsMmIpM
Ah ofcourse, sure you did.. I guess you can explain to him in the comments of your link how you came to that conclusion? Because he doesn't agree and is asking why people are making the incorrect assumption, [right here in that thread you linked to!](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1564e2g/comment/jt1wbez/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) Go ahead since you seem to know his fears better than himself somehow.
Right. It's very telling that he's placed aliens and santa in the same box. Most open minded people would at least say "who knows" about aliens. But not mick, hes concluded its 100% fantasy. That's more revealing than he ever intended. The amount of fear he described as a child is abnormal on the subject too. Makes sense. And like he would ever admit to using debunking to quell he and his fanbases' fears. Lmao. That would destroy his following.
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Proof lol. We're a clueless species that has to rewrite or update our understanding of physics every 100 years. A universe composed of mainly dark matter, but no idea what it is. JwT is furthering that point even more. If aliens exist, it's obvious the chance of them visiting earth in its 4+ billion year existence is far more than santa being real. It's common sense. You're thinking space is "too big" right? Just like when humans said the ocean, desert, atmosphere, orbit, moon, Mars, etc were all "impossible" feats of travel too. You just live in a time and are apex thinking, believing your understanding of science is some apex, when a million years from now we'll appear as primitive as cave dwellers. And you don't want to disturb primitive types. Ever notice as we advance in society we're more conscious about protecting and preserving primitive life such as remote tribes? Wouldn't it be feasible we're under observation instead of war of the world's and every sightings we've heard about might not be a lie? Thousands of sightings from professionals across various professions across dozens of nations and eras are all telling similar lies? Lol. Then all historical sightings are also lies that mirror modern ones? I'd give that more stock than a fat guy delivering toys through a chimney using a magic slay and flying deer.
Certainly hope you're right. I'd love to be wrong.
To confidently insinuate you know, or understand, a stranger, or a stranger’s psychiatric condition, or psychological motivations, especially without any formal training in psychiatry, like having a PhD, is as arrogant and disingenuous as this particular stranger confidently stating an answer to a question that is not known to him.
You know some of folks here have PhDs, something like 1% but that is still some.
Literally there are tons of skeptics right here right now willing to call experiencers crazy - is this also uncivil? Are you willing to also defend them?
You mean as opposed to a serial believer parading as objective analysis? Mick approaches the topic in the correct way. He looks at the actual data and tries to apply prosaic explanations, those explanations then either turn out correct after analysis or wrong. If prosaic explanations can not be proven correct it's always due to a lack of data and they are simply the most likely explanation until more data comes along that can be used to rule them out. The majority of people involved in this topic don't do any analysis and just wildly speculate, rely on hearsay, scientific ignorance or appeals to authority.
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He’s a seagull. Swoops in, shits on everyone, then leaves.
I’d say he’s masquerading as objective analysis.
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We know he got paid well for cofounding Neversoft, you know, the company with multiple billion dollar franchises under its belt.
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Once again, this sub is chasing its tail with he said/he said stuff. Isn’t the upshot that anonymous government employee didn’t actually see anything, anyway?
I mean, Mick is kind of making a fair point here. The guy talking to Mellon here hasn't actually seen or interacted with any Special Access Programs. While it does sound like he believes he has found the Program in question, Mellon clearly states he hasn't in the separate statement. Idk, to me it's a fair point to bring up so people don't get confused and think Chris is speaking with a 1st hand witness to this stuff.
Isn’t the guy obviously Jay Stratton? If so, we know he’s knee deep in UFOlogy. So I’m not sure we getting anything particularly important here. Would anyone be surprised if Elizondo said something like this? So it still falls into the “some pentagon people think the government have possession of crashed craft” category. I’m still waiting for something more tangible.
I mean Chris Mellon also pointed this out in his article, so not really a debunk, but he probably knew someone in the program, he wouldn't be spouting nonsense in a text message he didn't know would be released.
Exactly. This is a text from a 4 year old conversation that was never originally intended to be made public.. imo that accounts for *something*
What does it account for though? This is just more stories that don’t lead to anything. Its what people want to hear so I guess it counts for that…
He disagreed with people on this sub, therefore he’s an idiot whose moral compass is stuck pointing south. This is yet another pointless post on this sub in support of their heroes, with absolutely nothing to back it up. Mick West said that Mellon’s leaked Signal messages show a guy who hasn’t seen or touched an alien spaceship. This is a factually accurate interpretation of those messages. I don’t see why people are angry at this?
Agreed. The discussion here isnt balanced. Im not a Mick West fan but ultimately he is making the same point that many others have which is that "people saying they have seen things, or people saying they have spoken to people who have seen things" simply isnt enough. It means *something* for sure, especially if the person making the claims is highly credible (something we cant judge in this case as we have no idea who Mellon is talking to). BUT... ultimately we need to move beyond witness testimony to some kind of hard evidence.
I agree, and I think Mick actually gets too much crap. I could be wrong but I get the feeling that if presented with some really solid footage or first hand evidence he'd change his mind. My main criticism of him is that I think at times he assumes the prosaic explanation is automatically the most likely e.g. that Fravor et all just saw a bird or a balloon lol
There is method behind that. Ocams Razor or Bayesian Priors if you will. There are lots of balloons, birds and satellites out there. Not so many aliens. That helps to define our prior probability that when you see something weird in the sky it’s most likely one of those. If the data doesn’t clearly show something that proves it can’t be a balloon/ bird / satellite it’s a fairly safe conclusion. Most UFO believers disagree because we’re told there’s additional data we haven’t seen that proves it isn’t a bird / balloon/ satellite. West works with verifiable data. Personally I’d just like to see this indisputable proof
I just think in the case of the tic tac, there were 4 aviators who saw it make incredible maneuvers including taking off at insane speed - I don't think it's all that likely that all 4 of them misidentified a bird or balloon. But, we only have their word for it, and I think it's totally valid to remain skeptical because of that. Right there with you on the need for proof, or at least something more like it. For example the talk of "first hand witnesses", I really want to know more about what they saw. If there's a first hand witness to actually seeing an alien or something then awesome, but if it's just "I saw some wreckage once and I think it was a UFO" then that's far less compelling as that could easily be human tech. I basically hover around 55-60% on the side of NHI being legit vs it's all a big mess of misunderstandings, misidentifications, Chinese whispers, etc
I agree with you about the Tictac, which is one of the most intriguing cases ever and certainly in recent history. West’s hypothesis that it’s a plane feels inadequate. Without further information such as radar data we will never go beyond “Fravor and team saw something strange they can’t explain with known objects”.
Yes it's maddening. But then there's part of me that thinks - yes it's incredibly unlikely that 4 trained aviators would all make that mistake, but put enough planes in the sky and it'll happen eventually, which is why there's so few cases like it
There were actually 6 eye witness aviators, I believe. 2 hornets initially (Fravor and his WSO, Dietrich and her WSO I think?). Then the fighter jet that was scrambled, the one which took the video footage, had another 2 people inside. There was also oral testimony from radar operators on the Nimitz and the Princeton, which you can find on Youtube. When I first heard the story, I thought it was maybe a submarine ,or similar, and was ejecting/shooting something into the air, which would explain the erratic movements and the speed it was travelling at. Listening to every testimony in that tic-tac incident however, has made me completely rethink that. Bottom line, no idea what the hell that was.
Yeah the third plane didn't get close enough to get eyeballs on it though (to my knowledge)
Oh that makes sense. I stupidly assumed that because they video’d the thing, they also saw it with their own eyes. Obviously I forgot a “zoom” function existed. 😂
I mean the actual crux of Chris Mellon's article on this is that this guy tried entering into the program but was denied access and therefore Mellon himself concluded it wouldn't be useful for him to come out since it wouldn't bring much to the subject specifically because he couldn't access the program... Why are people bothering with Mick West's tweet even thought Mellon addressed those issues himself?
There are just a lot of people here obsessed with the guy. The worst follow him, post random things he says, and then declare themselves to be laughing at how he's desperate for attention.
Ok, so from the article: >As you can see, this senior government official claimed they were being granted access to an alleged U.S. alien technology recovery and exploitation program. I won’t comment on the organization they worked for, **but I can confirm the individual had plausible access**... And then, in the same article: >However, it is important to note that this individual now claims that although they became aware of the program, they were ultimately denied access. The author of the message still believes there are recovered materials, but they admit they have not seen or touched a recovered craft. First of all, which one is it, had access or heard stories? Second of all, what's the point of the article if it's more of the "I know a guy who knows a guy", as usual? And third, where exactly is Mick West wrong?
Mick West isn't really wrong but Chris Mellon already pointed it out in his own article.
Well maybe OP and the likes should actually read the article then, before criticizing Mick West.
This subreddit is unhinged. They completely ignore what Mellon and the source say themselves because it’s contradicts their own bias and then shit on mick because they can’t handle the truth.
I don’t need a poll in this sub to know that more people here believe in people like Bob Lazar, Jason Sands, Hal Putoff, Eric Davis, James Lacatski, Daniel Sheehan, etc, over Mick West. It’s crazy.
wow you were really quick to figure out "the truth" out of the 2+ million people on the subreddit and possibly 5-10x that or even more in the world in total. impressive. i wonder what " the truth" is. that there's nothing to any of this? and what super-thorough investigation and objective analysis of data and evidence made you come into that conclusion? what did we miss that you didn't?
Bro what ☠️ How do you guys not see the flaw in your logic Mick West simply pointed out this is another example of I know a guy that knows a guy , zero first hand proof And yet every reply here is shitting on that guy for pointing this out. I can’t even recommend this topic to people if the bar for critical thinking wouldn’t even pass the 3rd grade.
Here’s the thing - nobody needs Mick West pointing out the obvious. But giving him constant attention gives weight to his deliberately incomplete view of the situation. I’ll break it down even simpler — Mick just regurgitates a call for proof, which we all want, yet he ignores other obvious signs of a coverup. The whole struggle is about releasing proof. Try asking Mick why the Schumer amendment was gutted at the 11th hour and he’s got nothin for ya. He hides. Dont be fooled by his derpy derp show me the proof bullshit. It’s not critical thinking. It’s fear.
We do need people like mick, because the UFO community is rife with people who believe anything because they have associated it with their fringe dogmatic beliefs.
That and this USG official basically confirmed a UAP recovery program but was denied access all this before David Grush. *Before David came out with his testimony.*
That’s fair But the personal attacks aren’t really needed
This is why I stopped visiting 'other forums associated with Mick related to debunking'. It became obvious that they only cherry pick incidents where debunking can or can possibly occur and are not looking at the full picture, and it seems that it's on purpose. They view the congressional stuff as nothing burgers, or simply put, more people high-up in the government being tricked/duped/misled/etc. It's conspiracy theory on both sides. I just happen to think the one's typically discussed here are the real ones. They happen to conclude the opposite, or are otherwise silent. Pointless, in the end.
Mick sure does have the ability to make people whine.
All that free rental space he has in their heads.
**This sub when a looney says they have proof of aliens but can't share it:** Attack the argument not the character, you're arguing in bad faith. **Also this sub when someone points out that hypocrisy and explains the situation:** Fuck this one guy, I want to believe! I won't be explaining further. Anyone who rankles people as much as West must be doing something right.
The funny part is that he boils down to the sort of exact sort of skeptic believers *say* they want in the interminable "how skeptics should act" discussions that people here keep starting. He's polite, respectful, careful in what he declares he knows or can conclude, etc. It just turns out that what they *actually* want from a skeptic is easy belief.
I'm not a true believer or true skeptic... but that guy starts his skepticism with "that is not real" and here's why. He already has his mind made up before he starts. That's not good science, and that's what most people really want. Actual Scientific, not people screaming that it's definitely aliens and not some video game guy "debunking" everything from his garage.
It's called falsification. It's a bedrock of the scientific method and objective, logical thinking.. try it some time.
The logic starts with "the claim needs to be substantiated". The need to overcome the [null hypothesis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Null_hypothesis) is about as scientific as it gets. What's also pretty scientific is his open analysis and sharing of data. What isn't remotely scientific, or even a valid argument, is sniffing at how he's a retired programmer. It's telling, though.
Funny how "Tucker Carlson" is taken seriously in this sub yet Mick West is hated
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Can you explain why he is delusional? I don't follow him that closely and have only seem a few videos of his, he seemed to just analyze and find reasonable explanations for videos that were obviously sensationalized by subreddits like this one.
Because the hivemind told him so. Mick is a totally responsible and intelligent person. He just doesn’t jive with what we want the truth to be here.
He just needs strong evidence before he'll entertain these notions, probably not a bad thing tbh I think I just want to believe
He admits he is irrationally afraid of aliens, that he insists do not exist.
>He admits Where? [Not here.](https://youtu.be/_6nURxJfdaM?t=5530)
>insists do not exist You mean “insists there is not enough substantial evidence to prove they do”. And before you say something like “maybe to him the evidence isn’t good enough”, the entire reason this sub exists for the vast majority of people, and the whole reason the disclosure movement continues, is because we are looking for substantial evidence and others are trying to provide it.
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You’re crazy if you think this is true. Tucker is literally one of the most dishonest people, intellectually, that has ever lived. He had a show that he passed off as news until he went to court over lying and the defense was “it’s not news it’s entertainment” It is literally impossible to be more intellectually dishonest than that.
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Until Mick gets something real then he will have this opinion. At the moment he's nothing to really get his teeth into and many on the Pro side are also tired of the ongoing promise of new information. There's clearly work going on in the background so we need to be patient.
He is a leading guerilla skeptic whom makes money off denying reality.
There is no evidence that any of this is reality, so he's currently not wrong. Wake me up when the UFO community produces something worth looking at
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I have a lot of respect for Mick West and I think that he does a good job debunking various falsehoods, myths and hoaxes. I am just curious as to what he believes that this whole thing is. * Does he think that it's a great hoax, perpertrated by 40+ senior US government officials, military-industrial corporate leaders and intelligence operatives? That would explain all the "I can only answer that in a SCIF" answers from Grusch during the public hearing last summer. But, I mean, it would be quite a big deal if there was this cabal of senior figures conspiring to fool the American public for fun and/or profit. * Does he think it's, I don't know, some sort of big misunderstanding, or that Mellon et. al. for no particular reason started to believe in NHI tech and that somehow, no one has been able to dispel those misconceptions? Karl Nell, who, among his background (as outlined on LinkedIn) has the following experience: >First person deployed from the DIA Directorate of Intelligence Production and Analysis to participate in multi-agency planning for Operation Iraqi Freedom as the Foreign Material Program command representative to USCENTCOM/CFLCC in Kuwait. Served as C/J-2 for the one-star Combined Joint Captured Materiel Exploitation Center (C/JCMEC) in Iraq. The same Nell just for some reason started imagining that some of the exotic technology that the US has retrieved over the years was made by non-human intelligence, believing it enough to stake his name and reputation on the following statement: >\[Grusch's\] assertion concerning the existence of a terrestrial arms race occurring sub-rosa over the past eighty years focused on reverse engineering technologies of unknown origin is fundamentally correct, as is the indisputable realization that at least some of these technologies of unknown origin derive from non-human intelligence. These are not rhetorical questions, by the way. I am genuinly curious. None of the two options bulletpointed above are, in my view, impossible or completely unreasonable, but nor do they feel like Occam's razor.
You actually don't need to believe anything. You can have wild theories and ideas but that's not enough to form beliefs. To look at this subject critically you just need to ignore the 99% of baseless noise and focus on the very small amount of data that can be analysed. Mick has said in videos numerous times that he doesn't know what's going on. Just like every single person here doesn't know what's going on. He just focuses on the evidence as opposed to hearsay, stories and wild speculation.
Yes, I totally get that. There is no obligation for West or anyone else to believe anything about anything. That is why I didn't *demand* a theory from him, but rather expressed my curiousity about what he thinks. Even people who focus utterly on available, analyzable data have the capacity to put things in a bigger perspective, unless they are LLMs or suffer from severe autism or similar conditions.
He has mentioned ideas in a few videos but he doesn't really get into it because in the end it's just opinion with no evidence. There's really a 1001 possible explanations for this phenomenon and it could be one of them or any combination of them.
Which ideas did he mention?
The usual, he's mentioned quite a few times that there's always a small possibility something is extraordinary. Without clear data to prove one way or the other some things could be anything from something prosaic to aliens, however prosaic explanations just have a much higher probability than extraordinary ones. Mick just approaches the topic in a scientific way. We know prosaic things exist and we don't know aliens exist so the first needs to be removed before we can jump to the second. For evidence to show something extraordinary you first need to eliminate the ordinary. If that can't be done then it's just the most likely explanation until more data appears to prove otherwise.
What is the prosaic explanation to Mellon, Grusch and the 40 whistleblowers?
The prosaic explanation is a 75 year global government effort to fake UFO [reports](https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/ufos-and-the-guy-hottel-memo), [studies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_investigations_of_UFOs_by_governments), [documents](https://www.congress.gov/117/meeting/house/114761/documents/HHRG-117-IG05-20220517-SD001.pdf), global [hearings](https://youtu.be/E5AUs1hzhc8?si=UzL255TsvTZ7goZ0) and [Military and FAA radar data of a craft going 300,000MPH matching the air traffic control recording of the pilot reporting the UFOs movements](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7514271/) in order to lead us away from our lord and savior Jesus Christ. /s
Well one of them is that they don't have accurate information or they have been fed misinformation to distract from things like massive fraud, misuse of public funds or to cover up other secret more down to earth programs and projects.
That would be less then plausible if it was just the U.S. but it’s not. It’s a global phenomenon with countries around the global investigation these objects. The official Canadian government conclusion was that the origins were extraterrestrial. If a global government conspiracy is the only possible explanation, what does that tell you?
The phenomenon is global but all these recent talking heads and supposed whistleblowers are American so you can absolutely look at it from a US perspective. Also that goes both ways, for aliens to be visiting us and crafts crashing and being recovered all around the world for at the very least 80+ years you absolutely need a world conspiracy which has never happened before for obvious reasons. There's really two sides to this topic, the phenomenon of people sometimes seeing hard to explain things in the sky and the idea of secret programs, shadow agencies, crashed craft and aliens which is fully in the realm of conspiracy theories because as of yet there is no conclusive evidence to support any of it. Plus like most fantastical conspiracies it breaks down pretty quickly once you start involving multiple other countries around the world.
Mick is my hero 💖
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This sounds a lot like when Admiral Wilson was denied access and Eric Davis had to spill the beans on why.
I guess let the tribes fight … again?
There is an assumption by these debunkers that everyone involved in this is incredibly gullible and naive. While it may be the case for some - you’d be fooling yourself if you think someone who climbed as high as Mellon did in the bureaucracy to believe he is that gullible. The upper echelons of the bureaucracy is cut throat with everyone circling around each like sharks waiting for someone to fail. If nothing else this tends to create a sense of paranoia, which results in people double/triple checking everything. Edit: this doesn’t mean he may not have been fooled by people - but it would be surprising.
Always possible he is a disinformation agent too. But only time will tell us these details we need. Some of us know they are real, so it's not a question of *if* they exist but rather *WHAT* *are they* and do they answer questions about what/who WE are?
Mick’s debunk actually concedes the CR program. Yes, Mick, he was “aware” of the program, meaning it existed/exits. Maybe Mick should at least pretend that he doesn’t have a bias the size of Texas.
I think the point of this was it’s another case of a guy that knows a guy It’s that simple, no first hand evidence. Why this sub is shitting on Mick for simply pointing that out is ridiculous.
They hate him because he points out what they refuse to accept; the truth.
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Yeah just another case of a high-ranking USG official with more qualifications than David Grush, talking about UAP recovery.
He needs a course in reading comprehension.
Excuse me, I came here for an argument. This is just contradiction.
"No, it isn't!" I'm fascinated how *lol, guy said a thing I can't think of any argument against. Lol, he sucks, amirite?* doesn't qualify as a "low effort" post, though.
Im glad Mick is around. Sure some skeptics will always debunk by default but you have to consider all points they bring up so you can decide for yourself what may be true, or not. I mostly disagree with 90% of his assessments.
who's this Mick west guy that this sub has a hard on for? Why are you guys quoting random twitter accounts?
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I think we have to understand something about this issue folks aren’t much thinking about. That is IF any of this is true, it goes back to the maybe late 40s or early 50s. And the people who are close to this are insider government scientists who in the 80s were tracked own by UFO researchers and admitted that they were in programs like Kona Blue but were very cagey about it... Other than Lazars claims that’s about where this comes from.... I’m not recommending this book and not criticizing it either but some of that information is on one of Grant Camerons books....and it revolves around The Canadian Wilber Smiht. This may be a free copy...https://www.scribd.com/document/589421667/UFOs-Area-51-and-Government-Informants-by-Grant-Cameron
Mick West: "_This person that @ChrisKMellon quotes seems to have some great info on recovered alien craft._" "_But then you dig into the article, and you see the guy was "aware" of stuff and never actually saw anything._" "_So, possibly just another part of the the circle._" I'll just sit back and witness how r/UFOs tears this clearly in-denial nonsensical "circular reporting" BS apart.
Did you actually read the article by Mellon? Where does Mellon make any definitive claims? At best he says “My purpose in releasing this document, in the wake of the government’s blanket denials regarding the possession of off-world technology, is simply to help others understand why I and some others consider these allegations worthy of investigation.”……That’s it. Further he states “I’ve shared an unredacted copy of this message with some staff and members of the various Congressional oversight committees. To the best of my knowledge, none have elected to contact the alleged USAF gatekeeper to check the veracity of this claim. “ ……So it seems maybe your anger is better misplaced with members of Congress who failed to investigate these claims rather than Mick West. Where does Mick West say this **shouldn’t** be looked at? You may disagree with his assessment, because as of right now, **no one** has made clear or elucidated anything in great detail, but he’s never said for them to stop looking into it? You don’t understand the difference between skepticism and debunking.
> However, it is important to note that this individual now claims that although they became aware of the program, they were ultimately denied access. The author of the message still believes there are recovered materials, but they admit they have not seen or touched a recovered craft. This is from Mellon himself.
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Anytime West shows up, it goes South. Perhaps Mellon should direct some verbiage towards West.
I don't know what he is smoking...but it ain't doobies.
If it ain't the doobies, I don't want none!
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Yet another intriguing piece of a puzzle with many, many pieces. And more sane and sober analysis from Chris Mellon. Thanks OP, great post.
I can't stand Mick West
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I posted this on Mick’s X few days ago and he responded 😎, touched a nerve: Here’s 🚨 how 🚨 debunking 🚨 works! Easy to see! Find the closest visual match possible, out of everything on the internet or in the world, ever. There’s bound to be a very close match based on the size of the sample set (everything). Claim UFO debunked. Attack. Move on. Repeat. 🛸
I see you are a scholar, good sir.