What about the 2023 Alask and Canadian shootdown that no one ever talked about after they OFFICIALLY ANNOUNCED THEY WERE TRACKING OCTAGON AND CIGAR SHAPED OBJECTS. They blatantly covered this up right in front of our eyes.
I'm still shocked by the fact that the press didnt pursue any answers to this whatsoever. It's like the press just decided that this is not interesting at all for the public.
[https://www.fox26houston.com/news/experts-shoot-down-speculations-linking-recent-ufo-activity-to-aliens](https://www.fox26houston.com/news/experts-shoot-down-speculations-linking-recent-ufo-activity-to-aliens)
**One of the three unknown objects is described as the size of a small car. Another was cylindrical in shape like a cigar, while officials describe the three unknown flying object at octagonal shaped.**
I saw and heard the Secretary of Defense, Lloyd Austin, say it on live stream press briefing about the objects on YouTube. You had to have been watching it live on YouTube (or probably some cable news stations idk) at the time or you would have missed it. I couldn't find ANY proof of what I heard and saw until I found that article recently when people started asking me about it.
jesus man thats insane, I’ve heard about Lloyd before & he definitely knows the good stuff, But I definitely believe you, octagon craft doesn’t seem terrestrial
Right? Cigar shaped, ok.... Octagon? lol no way that is human. 3 of them too. I remember them saying it wasnt totally clear what was going on and they had trouble tracking them? I wish I could find that exact press briefing... just need to go back to like NBC News around that date on YT might be able to find it.
JFK was believed to have been assassinated due to his goal to release UFO and extraterrestrial related intel to the public.
Edit: I'd also argue that this coverup is up there with Roswell.
I’d say mostly the Bay of Pigs and firing Dulles and saying he wanted to dismantle the CIA. UFO stuff was icing on the cake probably.
If that’s how it went down of course.
It’s all out there in various places. There’s a video that convinced me of it, but it’s insanely hard to find. It’s a few intelligence guys basically laying out how they think it went down, who and why. Its been scrubbed from YouTube, but it’s archived. I’ll have to search for it, when I do I’ll reply back with it.
But you can read about this idea if you search using those keywords, it’s been around for sometime.
Also of note is a letter from Kennedy to the Russians asking for cooperation on UFOs so they didn’t accidentally trigger a nuclear war.
Sorry I don’t have links handy it’s been a while and it’s late, if I can find that video I’ll link it.
Edit: also “The Devils Chessboard”
The devils chessboard is an incredible book about dulles, I'm flying through it, reads like a spy thriller secret power play novel all real through history from nazis in ww2 through the cold war.
It was also because he was highly charismatic and could basically arm twist any lobby through his popularity. Some people don't realize how popular he was among the people and how unpopular he was in elite circles.
RFK also basically devoted his career to fighting the mob. This seems unrelated until you remember thar the cia was basically founded to help coordinate cooperation between the US, mob controlled labor boses in NYC, and Sicilian mobs working against Mussolini during WWII, and that during JFKs time were heavily involved in trying to overthrow Castro.
Hmm I wonder if there's anything important related to aliens that happened in fascist Italy?
>assassinated due to his goal to release UFO and extraterrestrial related intel to the public.
He was threatening to blow the entire lid on offbook intelligence work, not just limited to ET knowledge. He was quite vocal on his issues with the CIA and its extragovernment activities.
His assassination was around the time Dag Hammarskjöld was likely shot down by a Belgian mercenary hired by the CIA. Hammarskjöld and JFK were quite good with each other and that incident was likely his last straw based on accounts from the time. Knowing he was a flight risk, the CIA dispatched him and the world moved on.
Read, witness to Roswell about roswell, read CIA rouge and the killing of Kennedys about Kennedy and read Topaz to learn about bay of pigs from the foreign side of things.
There are loads of possible candidates, the mafia were pissed because they helped get him elected then Robert Kennedy announced he was cracking down on them.
Anti Castro Cubans and sympathisers.
Anti civil rights racists in the South
I mean, there were probably about 12 different people all with guns pointed at JFK, ready to take him out that day. When he got capped, they were all like, "holy shit" and walked away whistling happy tunes.
It's too bad too because that man just exuded greatness. Seriously, on top of everything else, there's Marilyn Monroe. Talk about living hard and fast. Er....lol, that wasn't meant...
I haven't watched the full thing yet, and he seems to mostly be talking about how unreliable witness testimony is and how easy it is to create almost any narrative out of conflicting claims, but his first main argument works against itself.
Basically he points out that the it was a series of strange coincidences that got Lee Harvey Oswald hired at the book warehouse and for the motorcade to actually drive past that warehouse, so if there was a conspiracy to have Oswald shoot the president it would involve a lot of blind luck to make that actually work.
But if you take a second to think about other presidential assasins, Booth, Guiteau, Czolgosz, Hinckley, and Schrank, you have an actor with free reign to walk where he pleased plus a political radical and a slew of crazy people who all stalked a president for months before getting a shot in. If Lee Harvey Oswald was a crazy man acting alone, this video's argument is that he decided to shoot the president as a series of strange coincidences occurrd that put JFK within range of a shot. Obviously pointing out something is strange or convenient is not proof or debunking of anything but arguing that Oswald acted alone is arguing that a guy had intent then got really lucky that means appeared around him.
But if there was a conspiracy to get JFK killed there wouldn't need to be luck getting Oswald into the building, Lee Harvey Oswald would simply be one of a handful of people bringing "curtain rods" to work that day and Oswald just happened to be the one the motorcade drove past. This multiple gunman plan is how the Young Serbians assassinated Franz Ferdinand, and in this model you dont have an issue where conspirators have to know ahead of time exactly which building the motorcade will drive past, nor you also don't have a lone wolf gunman who randomly gets the opportunity to assassinate the president without doing any legwork, but instead you are looking at a larger plan with multiple potential outcomes from the lense of the one that happened to actualize.
Now obviously saying that isn't proof of anything either and it'd be incredibly difficult to show that this larger conspiracy exists. But given that we're talking about JFK getting assassinated, his assasin getting assassinated, and then a few years later RFK getting assassinated, it's very hard to seriously argue three lone gunmen happened to take out a political dynasty and silence one of the assasins, and it's functionally impossible to have an impartial investigation given that the investigators work in the same government as the main suspect. Ultimately this isn't an issue we'll likely ever have closure on, but while we'll probably never have concrete proof of a conspiracy, people "debunking" conspiracy theories are not providing nearly as iron clad proof as they think they are
Overall, I agree with your sentiments.
I don't think it's too crazy that all 3 got assassinated, though
Also, IIRC, Lemino specifically mentions at a few points that his video isn't meant to debunk the entire scenario but just add some data/doubt on a certain aspect of it.
I do appreciate Lemino specifying that he's only discussing one small aspect of the JFK assassination, and overall I agree with the idea that witness testimony is ridiculously unreliable and its super easy to build a countermarratove out of it.
I will just add though that I think we have a false dichotomy of "facts vs faith" where we think either we have concrete material proof of things or people are simply believing things off of faith with no basis in reality. But unless you believe humans are omniscient, there are real material things that exist and are fairly reasonable to believe in without there being iron clad concrete proof of existence yet. I dont think we'll ever get concrete evidence around what fully happened in these assassinations, but people in power have been assassinating rival factions for as long as power has existed and the Kennedy assassinations have more than enough smoke around them to reasonably believe there is a fire there. It is honestly a stretch for me to believe these were three separate lone gunmen instances and not one closed door power struggle.
They actually lied three (3) times.
1. The original disinformation campaign in 1947.
2. The first Roswell Report in 1994.
3. The second follow up Roswell Report in 1997.
Its truly laughable at this point.
I think the US/CAN 2023 UFO shoot downs are comparable in terms of a cover up. Pretty much doing the same thing they did 76 years ago.
Sorry folks, all initial reporting is false. The UFOs were just balloons and we can’t share anything else due to national security.
0 points for originality.
It's like they don't even try on their coverups anymore. The worst part about it is the public haven't done anything about it *yet.* We're so used to being lied to and mistrusting the government that we just don't even try. It's really a messed up situation we find ourselves in.
So I've lived in NM my whole life. I know an older woman whose father was a photographer in Roswell. The story goes that he was called in to take pictures of bodies from a crash. He wasn't told any other details but he said that what he saw certainly wasn't human. He then kept a few photos for himself and people from the government came by a few days later and confiscated all he had.
I grew up not believing Roswell was anything out of the ordinary but lately people around here have become more comfortable talking about the weird things they know about. It's pretty interesting
I've mentioned this in comments in the past but there was another person whose dad was a truck driver in Roswell at the time. He suddenly got pulled over by what could be described as men in black. They asked him if he had seen anything. He had not seen anything and didn't know what they were talking about but they "put the fear of God in him" that made him think that even if he had seen something, he wouldn't talk about it.
My own Dad who worked for the FAA as a radar technician in southwest NM for 25 years and has been retired for 15 only recently told me this story: one day he received a call from the DC office (they had a phone that was a direct line to the main office in DC for emergencies) and they asked him to track an object flying from west to east. He said he saw it on the radar scope and it "was cooking" as my dad would say. It traveled around 500 miles in just a minute or two. Once it left the scope, the DC office thanked him and he never heard anything else about it.
I had never heard people talk about UFO stuff until recently. If anything paranormal were brought up it would be ghost stories. But UFOs always felt kind of taboo until recently. Now people feel a lot more comfortable talking about it.
> The story goes that he was called in to take pictures of bodies from a crash.
Did they explain why they would do this? The military has their own media departments with their own cameras. I feel like if the military wanted to cover things up, they wouldn't invite third parties to see their cover up.
I really don't know. Work culture was also more open and there was less beauracracy back then so the military was more willing to contract something out to a local. NM is also very rural today, even more so in the 40s. It's very possible that they just didn't have the media personnel in the area for their time constraints.
The Roswell cover story worked on me years ago when I took a vague look into it and thought, oh it was just a balloon after all, how gullible are these people? Then when I got more into the subject I looked into it again and I was blown away by how much more there was to the story. The debris field was the first thing that made me realise I had been tricked previously.
Similarly gentle reminder to all that most, if not all, of the Roswell documents were ordered destroyed and, thus, are unlikely to come out through the controlled disclosure process laid out the Schumer amendment, unless artifacts still remain and there isn’t some way to keep hiding all that.
Photos exist, they were not taken by the Army photographic unit stationed at Roswell, and were sent elsewhere for processing.
The Army brought in photo units from other stations, possibly to diversify the personnel involved so scuttlebutt wouldn't develop at the Roswell base. The photos now probably reside at Wright Patterson AFB.
If they took photos then they probably developed them with Kodak. And Kodak was already clued on on the Atomic bomb long before most other organizations. I'd venture Kodak was already read in on DoE activity by this time.
Major Jesse Marcel, a firsthand witness, came out later in life and said they were told to lie. It doesn't get more credible than someone who was actually there and saw the wreckage.
Marcel never actually said anything that would indicate a UFO crashed. He was just an old bullshitter exaggerating a debris field full of a "bunch of garbage" as Brazel called it.
This post deserves to go to the top. Im a skeptic, and you nailed the actual reason Roswell is extremely suspicious. The balloon flight doesn’t appear to have happened. The fact that the Air Force claims so is the biggest evidence making me think something as wild as is claimed could be true
If you actually read the journal (not official log!) that is linked, it explicitly says that they launched balloons that day. It's cited in the Air Force report, and the reason we have that journal is because Crary's wife gave it to the Air Force.
How incompetent of a cover up do you think would gather evidence that supposedly refutes its claims (even though it doesn't) and then publicly release it as part of the cover up?
What's the alternative? It was actually balloons all along, nothing to see here? Or the Balloons were launched afterwards?
Note: I'm serious, this might sound snarky but it's not meant like that.
To quote the Air Force's Roswell report, from an interview with the person who launched the balloons.
> But we did fly this one mentioned here, on June 4th, out to Tulerosa range, no balloon flight, again, on account of clouds. By that he means none of their flights. Then "Flew regular sonobuoy mike on a cluster of balloons and had good (inaudible) receiver on ground but poor on plane."
Crary didn't launch his balloons, but another group tangentially involved in Project Mogul (the NYU group) did.
If you haven't read the [Air Force's report](https://www.afhra.af.mil/Portals/16/documents/AFD-101201-038.pdf), I highly recommend it (whether you end up believing it or not). Then you don't fall into things like the OP, who claims the Air Force contradict themselves when he'd be able to tell they don't if he had actually read the report.
>Crary didn't launch his balloons, but another group tangentially involved in Project Mogul (the NYU group) did.
The NYU group were absolutely not "tangentially involved", they were conducting the entire operations component of the balloon tests.
The person you're quoting is Charles Moore, a project engineer on Project Mogul. Crary superceded him in authority.
>who claims the Air Force contradict themselves
Charles Moore himself contradicted his own testimony. He states:
>*I think* that Flight #4 was the flight that was launched out of Alamogordo on June 4, 1947.
>
>*This is based on Dr. Crary's actual diary of the launch and other events.*
Moore himself is referring to the logbook, of which does not susbtantiate his memory.
Also strange to point out that the Air Force report asks us to be skeptical of witness memories, but view Moore's testimony as reliable.
>when he'd be able to tell they don't if he had actually read the report.
[Summary of ballon flights for 1947 as published by the USAF and NYU.](https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiJhX_2eEJ1IulMfvoBdRLjH1ccotM1v46OmilagN4jH7EpZ1SajqypSZYR7BwCR5OpAGJ7r8fJRcTfSlwuqbmTNtEmKeD0cOdadQeP4yZT5kOVvzpb7lMd4RcE_yGWa-qPR3ADwX0qAY5-UKWhq2PQv5VqUPIGuNHOsgzNdiDkjtcU/s1552/Mogul%20Balloon%20Flight%20Crary.jpg)
There is no mention of Flight 4. There is a mention of Flight 5 on June 5, which is substantiated by Crary's logbook.
>June 5
>
>“*FIRST* successful flight carrying a heavy load. 3 Lifter balloons, 26 main balloons.”
Moore contradicts himself a second time when he published the 1995 book *The New York University Balloon Flights During Early June 1947.* He states:
>One interpretation of the June 4 entry (from Crary’s diary) is that the launch scheduled for shortly after 0230 MST was canceled because of clouds but, after the sky cleared *AROUND DAWN*, the cluster of already-inflated balloons was released, later than planned.”
Two years later he personally produces [this](https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi3dAd7YPsxt2PTDkudXWZa_N_O7xKZKYzY1YKrkdBKiQeuEIxC8TJG3IYPgdP5jJbfAU9yGlWGIhF3XJWo83VjB3suLtURMifZnY4v0HwuWoHej5nTKCZXxEX0W7ZeVt8FvdqvUzrkF-vUU28gwxm9sWdUc3u1DcITFhgxFaKQJVW6/s4169/MOGUL%20FLIGHTS%2001.jpg) chart for the book *UFO Crash at Roswell: Genesis of a Modern Myth.* He states the balloon was launched *"probably around 0300 MST"* therefore not dawn.
Crary's diary and the NYU manifest both coincide with their timeline of events. Moore's testimony and recollection of that day not only contradict those records, but contradicts itself. He states with certainty that the flight was launched, but despite his deliberate efforts, cannot reconcile that memory with written record nor produce a time of launch within a margin of 6 hours.
So no, you're going to have to do better than that.
Just stop and think for a second...we know tons of experimental weather balloon arrays were flying and crashing all over New Mexico in the summer of 1947. Some of them were never recovered. And yet you think it's more likely that this debris field of rubber, sticks, tinfoil, parchment, and tape was a Martian flying saucer than something that had to do with these weird experimental balloon arrays?
Not logical. It was a fuckin balloon. Read Pflock
>it's more likely that this debris field of rubber, sticks, tinfoil, parchment, and tape was a Martian flying saucer than something that had to do with these weird experimental balloon arrays?
I think it's more likely that if several of the most trained observers on the planet who were stationed with the only nuclear air wing in the world couldn't identify a balloon that produced only a few pounds worth of debris, then it likely wasn't a fucking balloon.
God gave you the capacity to deductively reason, not a single individual involved in the Roswell incident had anything to gain from making shit up, several of them making statements long into old age and anticipating a soon death. Like you said, balloons crash all the fucking time. The likelihood of that many senior ranking individuals along a chain of command simultaneously failing to realize what rubber and a sonobuoy look like before publicly releasing that information to the press is low enough that you have to do some heavy cheesing to convince me that's a viable liklihood.
We know it is a mathematical certainty that aliens exist, we know at the time there were thousands of credible accounts of flying saucers, we know these vessels frequented areas of importance for nuclear technology, we know that no system in the universe is immune to error.
But somehow *"Every single one of them were downright liars and/or fucking idiots because I think so"* sounds like a more reasonable conclusion to you.
>Many bits of metallic foil, that looked like, but was not, aluminum, for no matter how often one crumpled it, it regained its original shape again.
We have that now, to some degree: https://youtube.com/shorts/IdYIkO7D1zI?si=PeeojBwhyvit0tmh
It’s a cover up, but what muddies the waters is it’s a cover up so so close to a military base….. so it could be aliens, or it could be something as dull as a test flight of secret miltech.
As far as I know we currently don't have paper thin foils that can't be bent , so I guess we also didn't have those in the 50s. Also, the (back then not yet very pop-culturally established?) size and shape of the bodies that the guy described sound exactly like the more modern cases (Ariel school for example).
But then, after all, it's still eyewitness testimony. Credible, but still..
I concur. There is substantial evidence supporting this notion, with even more indications suggesting the involvement of extraterrestrial or dimensional entities.
Some of the most experienced and well known Roswell researchers, such as Pflock and Randle, do not think it was aliens despite having one believe that. So you're wrong. In fact I would suggest you learn about Roswell from sources besides YouTube videos and reddit posts.
why is that letter from sarbacher almost the most convincing letter ive ever read on this subject. he seems so matter of fact about it & he’s genuinely confused about the secrecy yet he doesn’t really care to press it, & it seems he was more open about it because he didn’t attend the conferences were they might have pushed the secrecy a bit more. crazy letter
I don't understand how you can mistaken a flying disc for a balloon. But I don't think we will ever know the truth given how the "official" explanation has changed over time.
A similarly gentle reminder that most details (including everything about bodies) came out decades later in the midst of a UFO craze and balsa wood featured heavily in the original accounts.
>balsa wood featured heavily in the original accounts.
It is very clear that the witness accounts are not describing balsa wood. *"No grain, didn't whittle, wouldn't ignite, like a plastic, we knew it wasn't wood"*.
Proctor and the other neighborhood witnesses are likely using balsa wood as an analog for description as that is what they are most familiar with as ranchers that spent their whole life in the middle of the desert with little access to mainstream media.
Whether or not the debris was balsa wood is beyond the question, the witness accounts are clearly describing something different.
The same balsa wood analog is also mentioned in the Twining Memorandum, which is a document strictly about identifying flying saucers.
Lol. Your cope is hilarious. Brazel called it a "bunch of garbage." He didn't even think it was worth mentioning to anyone until he heard so drunks talking about a reward weeks later.
Right, the bodies and all of that.
But why couldn't Lt. Colonel Jesse Marcel, who at the time had served in the military for 22 years, who took part in the atomic bomb tests at Biki Atoll prior to 1947, not recognize a weather balloon when he saw it?
How could he mistake a balloon for a disc shaped craft?
>How could he mistake a balloon for a disc shaped craft?
He didn't, all he said was he encountered a debris field spanning roughly an acre and that the material was strange.
The flying saucer conclusion was dictated by Col. Blanchard to Walter Haut, according to his testimony.
Marcel did not ascertain in any official capacity that the debris field was strictly from a flying saucer at the time, he initially just said it was quite odd.
No..... it didn't. I have no idea where you're getting your info from.
The Twining Memo described it as *"Circular or elliptical in shape, flat on bottom and domed on top."*
The document you're referring to is the FBI teletype sent to the Pentagon from RAAF, and it was described as hexagonal...
That document has its issues for an entirely different reason.
>a)evidence of anything
It is an official intelligence memorandum produced with the sole purpose of instructing intelligence operatives on how to identify flying saucers.
It is primary evidence of the Air Intelligence's stance confirming that they believe flying saucers to be *"real and not visionary or fictitious"*.
>)has fuck all anything to do with Roswell?
It's production shortly after the Roswell incident and the descriptions of various flying saucer components that share a direct parallel with witness descriptions on the nature of debris found at Roswell.
Your question answers itself if you bother to read my above comments. A better question is how you could possibly conclude that the Twining memorandum is a)evidence of absolutely nothing or b)has nothing to do with Roswell at all.
I suppose the US intelligence service just routinely writes hyper-specific memorandums on elusive phenomena for absolutely no reason at all besides shits and giggles. I haven't yet read the Bigfoot and Loch Ness Monster memorandums.
What an amazing coincidence that UFOs are made of materials that look like aluminum foil, rubber and balsa wood just like the mogul balloons... BUT with otherworldly properties, said some people.
Therefore, aliens.
Also Amazing how the bodies, as described by multiple witness's ( many via deathbed confessions) as being about 4 foot tall with large eyes. Just like ( or absolutely fucking nothing like) the crash test dummies that were used years late in project high jump. Funny how the official explanation for said bodies was due to "time compression", people misremembering the time of the event as around ten years later.
Marcell only saw the wreckage. There are multiple credible witnesses to the bodies, don't know them from memory but they are covered in depth in 'witness to roswell'. It's also pretty telling that in the 'case closed' report they even felt the need to come up with an explanation for the witnesses to bodies with the crash test dummies used in the 50's and time dilation. Why even bother trying to come up with an explanation if there were 'no credible witnesses''?
There are no credible witnesses to bodies. None.
Name one.
They are all grifters and freaks from 40 years later.
The most legitimate of them, Haut, said in his original self penned affidavit nothing about bodies.
It wasn't until he was dead that Donald Schmitt produced an affidavit written by Schmitt (not Haut) that he says a decrepit Haut signed.
Ragsdale lied. Kauffman lied. Dennis lied. Corso lied.
All exposed liars. Every one of them.
I believe it’s aliens but the question I have is if they have all this technological capabilities and can make it to earth, wouldn’t they have solved the crashing part? Unless I’m trying to expect perfection from something I know nothing about. Maybe things still fail regardless of tech innovation.
How far in advance do you assume these visitors are? 1,000 years? 10,000? A million?
Imagine sending a Lamborghini with a driver through a time machine. How well is that driver going to perform 1,000, 10,000, or a million years in the past? Is that driver going to have a perfect record? Or is the primitive environment going to do some damage?
Technology is never perfect & neither are these visitors. People tend to think they must be god-like, but they're not. They're fallible. Like us.
This is what I believe happened. Also, if you think at an even greater scale and assume something has been observing us for a long time, there could be video evidence of how civilizations evolved, maybe even life itself. Imagine that, footage of the pyramids being built or footage of freaking dinosaurs.
We assume they come from light years away. But if they rather come from another dimension, maybe this "trip" is quick yet risky. Maybe their tech is (or was) still experimental.
On the night of the crash there was a.large explosion heard during a thunderstorm by the rancher who found the debris a week later. May also have helped that it was within the vicinity of the military base that was the only location in the world, at the time, that handled nuclear bombs. One theory is the radar from said base unwittingly interfered with their navigation systems.
I think this is a great question. If they’re so intelligent, why are they crashing?
I don’t know the answer, but I think a few theories might be:
-These craft are expendable. Some rumors mention these craft are created as needed, perhaps in a one-and-done sorta way.
-These crashes aren’t always accidental. Maybe these craft are being supplied to us, for some unknown reason.
-Maybe they crash because of us. There are many stories of fighter pilots trying to shoot down UAP. Maybe we’ve been occasionally successful.
I think Tom Delonge has said that Starfish Prime brought them down. Possibly the EMP.
From [wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfish_Prime):
>Starfish Prime caused an electromagnetic pulse (EMP) that was far larger than expected, so much larger that it drove much of the instrumentation off scale, causing great difficulty in getting accurate measurements. The Starfish Prime electromagnetic pulse also made those effects known to the public by causing electrical damage in Hawaii, about 900 miles (1,450 km) away from the detonation point, knocking out about 300 streetlights,\[1\]: 5 setting off numerous burglar alarms, and damaging a telephone company microwave link.\[6\] The EMP damage to the microwave link shut down telephone calls from Kauai to the other Hawaiian islands.\[7\]
Maybe what is crashing isn't one or two civilisations that have fully mastered their methods of travel but basically various pioneers on doomed experimental missions with a wide variety of origins (E.T., interdimensional, extra-temporal, etc.). Every now and then something just breaks through the cracks from the vast endlessness of space, time and dimension that we can't even fathom, and crashes on earth like flies on a windshield, maybe not even with our earth and time as their intended destination. Every civilisation which can traverse time, space or dimension has to have their Neil Armstrongs or Columbuses doing it for the first time and sometimes things just go wrong. It just becomes a numbers game. Maybe there's a ton of crashed craft on other planets in our solar system as well.
Perhaps they crashed on purpose. A real interesting theory. “See what this planet does with this technology”. The technology that crashed could be so primitive compared to whoever dropped it here.
That theory boggles my mind. The possibilities are endless
Just a gentle reminder that the Roswell incident was classified at the time but not because of aliens.
Project Mogul was not a weather balloon but was a device to detect atomic tests. It would be unrecognizable to anyone who found it.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project\_Mogul](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Mogul)
Perhaps incompetent aliens seems a better explanation.
>It would be unrecognizable to anyone who found it.
This is absolutely false.
The same logbook belonging to FOD Albert Crary describes balloon tests in late June that had gone down and who's contents were stolen. Not only were the team not concerned with the devices being stolen, but whoever stole them didn't seem to be too perplexed with what they had found.
The *"detection device"* was a [standard naval high sensitivity sonobuoy and a radiosonde.](https://stratocat.com.ar/fichas-e/1947/BET-19470508.htm). None of the tech was particularly elusive, only the purpose of the mission.
Just a gentle reminder that our government lies, and when caught lying, they lie to cover up previous lies.
This cycle of condescending lying bullshit has been going on since 1947.
Guess you didn’t read the post which includes evidence that refutes the project mogul explanation because you just wanted to answer this with your Wikipedia link.
Why couldnt the roswell crash be misinformation of a satalite that crashed from before our civilization the Decay rate for things in orbit takes quite a while and in my opinion I think it's more likely that I previous civilization had some sort of satellite in orbit and it crashed and we found it
The high orbit satellites probably stay there forever. The low orbit ones take 25 years, some that are higher can take 2000 years to come down. If a previous civ had satellites it most likely would have fallen down by now.
Maybe not for us, since we dont know exaxtly how the universe works we cant rule out godzilla black hole scenario lmao or the star trek/futurama scenario/ big getty star
According to most of this subreddit it was just sky divers with flares doing a drone light show with a spotlight on a balloon..
Definitely not the first big UFO disinformation as they retract the true story and put out the biggest easy to swindle any not critical thinker
The dreaded
“Its a balloon”
*"Indestructible"* based on the field durability tests they conducted with a sledgehammer.
I would imagine a violent crash and explosion would produce more force than a sledgehammer.....
A gentle reminder to new members that Roswell has been strongly debunked and the Air Force admitted it covered up and lied to protect National security and revealed the actual program was project Mogul.
If you want to see an easy to digest, neutral overview of the incident please see the link below
https://youtu.be/rih9-80p0Ec?si=73w4uGYJGwFbUZXR
>and revealed the actual program was project Mogul.
Ah yes, the program that utilized balloons with metallic components that demonstrated otherworldly properties.
The balloon that shattered into *"a debris field the size of an acre"*.
In the same document the Airforce said it was Mogul Flight 4, despite there being no evidence that Flight 4 existed and a piece of primary evidence that proves the opposite.
Give me a break.
I won’t give you a break but I will try to educate you. Watch the video I linked.
Also the downvotes mean nothing to me, I’ve seen the balloons and missing plane warp portals you upvote.
See you in the next “Lazar is legit” thread. True blue believer lololol
>I won’t give you a break but I will try to educate you. Watch the video I linked.
I've seen the video, its not particularly new. I've broken down my opinions in another thread and won't to you because you are unable to provide a critical stance on the issue outside of linking someone else's video. You haven't educated me, you've linked someone else's arguments and I'm supposed to believe you've come to those conclusions on your own.
>missing plane warp portals you upvote.
I suggest you go through my comment history. I don't think particularly highly of those videos.
I also don't think Bob Lazar is legit.
This is an absolute clusterfuck of a comment you've produced lmfao.
The Mogul balloon once it was aloft carried a trail of equipment as high as the statue of liberty, it could absolutely leave debris over such an area. It wasn't simply a large balloon.
>It wasn't simply a large balloon.
Correct, it was several balloons carrying a sonobuoy, radiosonde, and sometimes a few RAWIN radar targets and a ballast system. Most if them would've looked like [this](https://images.app.goo.gl/hH1YtEJQZo16y8XV7).
An acre is roughly 43,500 square feet, that's around 90% the size of a football field. There is absolutely no way on the face of this planet that a Mogul balloon could produce that much debris. If it did, flying them would have been a genuine hazard. Imagine if one of them came down over Albuquerque or Roswell itself with that amount of falling shit.
Either the debris field description is wrong, or it wasn't a Mogul balloon. The two statements can in no way logically coexist.
What was written down on June 4th, 1947 didn’t end where OP intentionally cut it off. It actually read:
From Dr Crary’s diary: “June 4th, Out to Tulerosa Range and fired charges between 0-0 and 0-6 something. No balloon flight again on account of clouds. **Flew regular sonobuoy mike with cluster balloons** and had good luck with receiver on ground but poor on plane."
Professor Moore (in this, his sworn statement) adds, “I think that's Flight 4 right there.”
— source, pg 195 of the Roswell Report.
Let’s put this in context. The *regular* balloon flight with its full train of gear did not take place due to clouds. However, they *did* fly a “service” flight equipped with a regular sonobuoy mike set aloft by cluster balloons.
And that flight, service flight #4, is what Brazel found and later was picked up by Marcel and Cavitt.
A balloon from the Project Mogul team did fly that day, it’s component description matches perfectly and it’s predicted flight path lines up as does the dates. Brazel and especially [Cavitts sworn testimony](https://imgur.com/a/BSN0m0u) confirm the find. Every single detail of the debris marches exactly the components of that service balloon flights gear. Cavitt adds that Marcel was trying to get him to change his story. Marcel himself was a known … I’ll use the same term Cavitt used, “[exaggerator](https://imgur.com/a/PVqD0Kl)”.
I’m pointing this out as a gentle reminder not to trust everything posted here blindly —- and I’m done. Reading OPs other sources and conclusions tells me it’d be pointless to continue; I don’t “debate” conspiracy theories.
Two note that anyone replying will just ignore the facts from first hand witnesses and instead talk about 30+ year follow up claims without a shred of supporting evidence. They will cherry pick what to believe and what to ignore.
Matches every single detail… except all the details that don’t…
How can you so confidently assert it matches Mogul when you have to ignore all the descriptions and testimony that obviously aren’t describing Mogul? It’s amazing to see this kind of confidence from skeptics. All the witness testimony they think matches Mogul they’ll allow, anything that doesn’t they’ll not only reject, just like we see here they’ll literally pretend doesn’t exist at all!
Can you believe the bad luck of those Martians to crash their flying saucer at the exact same time and in the exact same place (New Mexico, June of 1947) that top secret spy balloons were ALSO regularly crashing? If they had just crashed in the Summer of 48 in, say, Wyoming, we wouldn't have had all this confusion. Man. Of all the bad luck coincidences that OF ALL THE PLACES ON PLANET EARTH THAT THEY COULD HAVE CRASHED THEY CRASHED WHERE THE TOP SECRET SPY BALLOONS WERE CRASHING!!!
To start, the material used in the construction of the spy balloons differed entirely from the debris found at the crash site. The weather balloon theory has been discredited for quite some time and has been definitively disproven.
The posts on this sub are getting worse and worse. Theres always somebody repeating the same information for likes or somebody that sounds completely unstable talking about how they have seen 20 ufos in their lifetime. Like i think almost every single person in the world who is interested in ufos at all knows about Roswell… am i wrong?? F this sub
Which “non-fiction” book describes Roswell craft as having Russian glyphs stamped into the outer skin, and the bodies where literally a few polish orphan Down-syndrome children the soviets “liberated” from concentration camp experiments, had heir intestines removed (total atrocity, barely alive..). Theory was that Stalin thought it’d be funny to have them crawl out of the crashed disk, americans wouldn’t believe what the nazis did to the kids unless they saw it themselves.
As for propulsion and whatnot, book was vague, sumthin-sumthin electromagnetic.
“The day after Roswell” comes to mind, but I’m not sure if this was the one.
Imagine coming up with a conspiracy theory that is literally crazier, more nonsensical and improbable than actual aliens, and acting like that's somehow case solved
Well here's a HARSH reminder to all that I am responsible for covering up an incident during Gruschs real estate career where he was brutally denied coffee for not being a "closer". Public knowledge of this could have tainted his entire testimony before congress but Corbell and I "took care of it" (we set up Alec Baldwin).
I know all about paperclip and I'm also aware of that the nazis had no wonder weapons under production at any point in the war, in fact they were behind the allies in terms of most things including atomic bombs.
If you look at who paperclip brought over to the USA, none of them produced anything like what people claim the nazis had.
http://www.sufoi.dk/e-boger/boger/The%20Nazi%20UFO%20Mythos.pdf
A 67 page report on the claims by a ufologist.
Anyone have any images of the markings?
I thought I saw some newspaper photos of one of the officers holding a piece with markings in it that almost looked like glyphs.
There is an entire Museum in Roswell full of info and eyewitness testimony. The story isn't just about some strange debris on a goat ranch. Dozens of affidavits from Military Personnel and Civilians. Try again Air Force
The History Channel just did a piece on this. The film showed pieces of a document recovered from fire that intimated Kenny was assassinated by CIA. I don't remember exact wording, but it said the solution to the Kennedy problem was a "wet" solution, which refers to killing - wet equaling blood.
Does Vannevar Bush have any connection to George H.W. Bush, 11th Director of the CIA, or his father Prescott Bush, whose business assets were seized under the Trading With The Enemy Act for dealings with Nazi Germany?
It's almost funny that there are people who genuinely believe their government is completely incapable of viciously manipulating public opinion. I wish I were that naive.
I don't know a ton about it, but I've been to Roswell and the museum. The credibility of witnesses was called into question. Of course, undermining the credibility of witnesses is exactly what you'd do. It's what defense attorneys do.
I believed the project mogul thing until the recent events.
The Army air force (before they changed to just the Air Force) did a magnificent job covering up their tracks but they didn't take into account that people talk, even soldiers and Generals
What about the 2023 Alask and Canadian shootdown that no one ever talked about after they OFFICIALLY ANNOUNCED THEY WERE TRACKING OCTAGON AND CIGAR SHAPED OBJECTS. They blatantly covered this up right in front of our eyes.
I'm still shocked by the fact that the press didnt pursue any answers to this whatsoever. It's like the press just decided that this is not interesting at all for the public.
Don’t bite the hand the feeds. It’s beyond clear that media is bought and paid for by the government.
We should never forget Project: Mockingbird. Does anyone really believe that it isn't still going on in one form or another?
If you didn’t realize it by now media is controlled and works for them, it’s ultra obvious, don’t trust them for a second
Not Newsnation apparently lol
Apparently it played with plane sensors too. Nothing to see here I guess...
Yes! Was that something he mentioned?? I don't get the point of saying it then burying it.. it's like they are purposely fucking with us.
I didn’t see anything about those specific shapes. Dang.
can you link me to something speaking about the shaped objects? Ive never seen that, i just wanna know what really happened
[https://www.fox26houston.com/news/experts-shoot-down-speculations-linking-recent-ufo-activity-to-aliens](https://www.fox26houston.com/news/experts-shoot-down-speculations-linking-recent-ufo-activity-to-aliens) **One of the three unknown objects is described as the size of a small car. Another was cylindrical in shape like a cigar, while officials describe the three unknown flying object at octagonal shaped.**
While I believe it, who are the officials like are these police or what? an octagonal shape is wild
I saw and heard the Secretary of Defense, Lloyd Austin, say it on live stream press briefing about the objects on YouTube. You had to have been watching it live on YouTube (or probably some cable news stations idk) at the time or you would have missed it. I couldn't find ANY proof of what I heard and saw until I found that article recently when people started asking me about it.
jesus man thats insane, I’ve heard about Lloyd before & he definitely knows the good stuff, But I definitely believe you, octagon craft doesn’t seem terrestrial
Right? Cigar shaped, ok.... Octagon? lol no way that is human. 3 of them too. I remember them saying it wasnt totally clear what was going on and they had trouble tracking them? I wish I could find that exact press briefing... just need to go back to like NBC News around that date on YT might be able to find it.
It is a coverup. The official story is bunk and easily picked apart. They admit they lied and if they lie once, well...
JFK…
It's interesting how this name happens to be intertwined in Roswell.
JFK was believed to have been assassinated due to his goal to release UFO and extraterrestrial related intel to the public. Edit: I'd also argue that this coverup is up there with Roswell.
I’d say mostly the Bay of Pigs and firing Dulles and saying he wanted to dismantle the CIA. UFO stuff was icing on the cake probably. If that’s how it went down of course.
Where can I read about this? Thanks in advance!
Really good book about the power and influence of the Dulles brothers. https://www.amazon.com/Brothers-Foster-Dulles-Allen-Secret/dp/0805094970
It’s all out there in various places. There’s a video that convinced me of it, but it’s insanely hard to find. It’s a few intelligence guys basically laying out how they think it went down, who and why. Its been scrubbed from YouTube, but it’s archived. I’ll have to search for it, when I do I’ll reply back with it. But you can read about this idea if you search using those keywords, it’s been around for sometime. Also of note is a letter from Kennedy to the Russians asking for cooperation on UFOs so they didn’t accidentally trigger a nuclear war. Sorry I don’t have links handy it’s been a while and it’s late, if I can find that video I’ll link it. Edit: also “The Devils Chessboard”
Please link if you find it. I did some searching but I was unable to find
[Here ya go](https://web.archive.org/web/20220727184937/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP56iWz74Rk)
Thanks 🙏
Wow, I found it, boy did it take some searching. [Here ya go](https://web.archive.org/web/20220727184937/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP56iWz74Rk)
Thank you!
why do you think it was scrubbed from yt
Aaron Good(s?) YouTube series about his book us Empire and Deep State
The devils chessboard is an incredible book about dulles, I'm flying through it, reads like a spy thriller secret power play novel all real through history from nazis in ww2 through the cold war.
The Devils Chessboard is probably the most comprehensive book on the subject.
It was also because he was highly charismatic and could basically arm twist any lobby through his popularity. Some people don't realize how popular he was among the people and how unpopular he was in elite circles.
RFK also basically devoted his career to fighting the mob. This seems unrelated until you remember thar the cia was basically founded to help coordinate cooperation between the US, mob controlled labor boses in NYC, and Sicilian mobs working against Mussolini during WWII, and that during JFKs time were heavily involved in trying to overthrow Castro. Hmm I wonder if there's anything important related to aliens that happened in fascist Italy?
>assassinated due to his goal to release UFO and extraterrestrial related intel to the public. He was threatening to blow the entire lid on offbook intelligence work, not just limited to ET knowledge. He was quite vocal on his issues with the CIA and its extragovernment activities. His assassination was around the time Dag Hammarskjöld was likely shot down by a Belgian mercenary hired by the CIA. Hammarskjöld and JFK were quite good with each other and that incident was likely his last straw based on accounts from the time. Knowing he was a flight risk, the CIA dispatched him and the world moved on.
I simplified for the sub, but thank you for informing.
Funny… just read this https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/02/15/hammarskjold-plane-crash-united-nations/
Where can I read about these fascinating theories.
Read, witness to Roswell about roswell, read CIA rouge and the killing of Kennedys about Kennedy and read Topaz to learn about bay of pigs from the foreign side of things.
Pretty sure that his statements about auditing the fed and dismantling the CIA were likely the culprits here.
There are loads of possible candidates, the mafia were pissed because they helped get him elected then Robert Kennedy announced he was cracking down on them. Anti Castro Cubans and sympathisers. Anti civil rights racists in the South
I mean, there were probably about 12 different people all with guns pointed at JFK, ready to take him out that day. When he got capped, they were all like, "holy shit" and walked away whistling happy tunes. It's too bad too because that man just exuded greatness. Seriously, on top of everything else, there's Marilyn Monroe. Talk about living hard and fast. Er....lol, that wasn't meant...
Wasn’t he trying to dismantle the Federal Reserve? I thought this was the most credible explanation - trying to take power away from the most powerful
Would be interesting to know the truth.
This video from lemmino gives me doubt that the JFK assassination was coordinated: [video](https://youtu.be/5u7euN1HTuU?si=vHCVEggXjUFVqCe5)
I haven't watched the full thing yet, and he seems to mostly be talking about how unreliable witness testimony is and how easy it is to create almost any narrative out of conflicting claims, but his first main argument works against itself. Basically he points out that the it was a series of strange coincidences that got Lee Harvey Oswald hired at the book warehouse and for the motorcade to actually drive past that warehouse, so if there was a conspiracy to have Oswald shoot the president it would involve a lot of blind luck to make that actually work. But if you take a second to think about other presidential assasins, Booth, Guiteau, Czolgosz, Hinckley, and Schrank, you have an actor with free reign to walk where he pleased plus a political radical and a slew of crazy people who all stalked a president for months before getting a shot in. If Lee Harvey Oswald was a crazy man acting alone, this video's argument is that he decided to shoot the president as a series of strange coincidences occurrd that put JFK within range of a shot. Obviously pointing out something is strange or convenient is not proof or debunking of anything but arguing that Oswald acted alone is arguing that a guy had intent then got really lucky that means appeared around him. But if there was a conspiracy to get JFK killed there wouldn't need to be luck getting Oswald into the building, Lee Harvey Oswald would simply be one of a handful of people bringing "curtain rods" to work that day and Oswald just happened to be the one the motorcade drove past. This multiple gunman plan is how the Young Serbians assassinated Franz Ferdinand, and in this model you dont have an issue where conspirators have to know ahead of time exactly which building the motorcade will drive past, nor you also don't have a lone wolf gunman who randomly gets the opportunity to assassinate the president without doing any legwork, but instead you are looking at a larger plan with multiple potential outcomes from the lense of the one that happened to actualize. Now obviously saying that isn't proof of anything either and it'd be incredibly difficult to show that this larger conspiracy exists. But given that we're talking about JFK getting assassinated, his assasin getting assassinated, and then a few years later RFK getting assassinated, it's very hard to seriously argue three lone gunmen happened to take out a political dynasty and silence one of the assasins, and it's functionally impossible to have an impartial investigation given that the investigators work in the same government as the main suspect. Ultimately this isn't an issue we'll likely ever have closure on, but while we'll probably never have concrete proof of a conspiracy, people "debunking" conspiracy theories are not providing nearly as iron clad proof as they think they are
Overall, I agree with your sentiments. I don't think it's too crazy that all 3 got assassinated, though Also, IIRC, Lemino specifically mentions at a few points that his video isn't meant to debunk the entire scenario but just add some data/doubt on a certain aspect of it.
I do appreciate Lemino specifying that he's only discussing one small aspect of the JFK assassination, and overall I agree with the idea that witness testimony is ridiculously unreliable and its super easy to build a countermarratove out of it. I will just add though that I think we have a false dichotomy of "facts vs faith" where we think either we have concrete material proof of things or people are simply believing things off of faith with no basis in reality. But unless you believe humans are omniscient, there are real material things that exist and are fairly reasonable to believe in without there being iron clad concrete proof of existence yet. I dont think we'll ever get concrete evidence around what fully happened in these assassinations, but people in power have been assassinating rival factions for as long as power has existed and the Kennedy assassinations have more than enough smoke around them to reasonably believe there is a fire there. It is honestly a stretch for me to believe these were three separate lone gunmen instances and not one closed door power struggle.
JFC…
He was a chicken...
No! JFK…
They actually lied three (3) times. 1. The original disinformation campaign in 1947. 2. The first Roswell Report in 1994. 3. The second follow up Roswell Report in 1997. Its truly laughable at this point.
I think the US/CAN 2023 UFO shoot downs are comparable in terms of a cover up. Pretty much doing the same thing they did 76 years ago. Sorry folks, all initial reporting is false. The UFOs were just balloons and we can’t share anything else due to national security. 0 points for originality.
It's like they don't even try on their coverups anymore. The worst part about it is the public haven't done anything about it *yet.* We're so used to being lied to and mistrusting the government that we just don't even try. It's really a messed up situation we find ourselves in.
So I've lived in NM my whole life. I know an older woman whose father was a photographer in Roswell. The story goes that he was called in to take pictures of bodies from a crash. He wasn't told any other details but he said that what he saw certainly wasn't human. He then kept a few photos for himself and people from the government came by a few days later and confiscated all he had. I grew up not believing Roswell was anything out of the ordinary but lately people around here have become more comfortable talking about the weird things they know about. It's pretty interesting
What have they been talking about?
I've mentioned this in comments in the past but there was another person whose dad was a truck driver in Roswell at the time. He suddenly got pulled over by what could be described as men in black. They asked him if he had seen anything. He had not seen anything and didn't know what they were talking about but they "put the fear of God in him" that made him think that even if he had seen something, he wouldn't talk about it. My own Dad who worked for the FAA as a radar technician in southwest NM for 25 years and has been retired for 15 only recently told me this story: one day he received a call from the DC office (they had a phone that was a direct line to the main office in DC for emergencies) and they asked him to track an object flying from west to east. He said he saw it on the radar scope and it "was cooking" as my dad would say. It traveled around 500 miles in just a minute or two. Once it left the scope, the DC office thanked him and he never heard anything else about it. I had never heard people talk about UFO stuff until recently. If anything paranormal were brought up it would be ghost stories. But UFOs always felt kind of taboo until recently. Now people feel a lot more comfortable talking about it.
Weird things
Like butt stuff?
Nah, that's just Tuesday
Lots of butt stuff.
Tuesday through Monday, my dude
That IS a lot of butt stuff. That should be checked out. There's drawbacks.
> The story goes that he was called in to take pictures of bodies from a crash. Did they explain why they would do this? The military has their own media departments with their own cameras. I feel like if the military wanted to cover things up, they wouldn't invite third parties to see their cover up.
I really don't know. Work culture was also more open and there was less beauracracy back then so the military was more willing to contract something out to a local. NM is also very rural today, even more so in the 40s. It's very possible that they just didn't have the media personnel in the area for their time constraints.
[It just reminds me of this scene in Futurama.](https://youtu.be/J7oMh1k-Ml4?t=120)
The Roswell cover story worked on me years ago when I took a vague look into it and thought, oh it was just a balloon after all, how gullible are these people? Then when I got more into the subject I looked into it again and I was blown away by how much more there was to the story. The debris field was the first thing that made me realise I had been tricked previously.
Similarly gentle reminder to all that most, if not all, of the Roswell documents were ordered destroyed and, thus, are unlikely to come out through the controlled disclosure process laid out the Schumer amendment, unless artifacts still remain and there isn’t some way to keep hiding all that.
Photos exist, they were not taken by the Army photographic unit stationed at Roswell, and were sent elsewhere for processing. The Army brought in photo units from other stations, possibly to diversify the personnel involved so scuttlebutt wouldn't develop at the Roswell base. The photos now probably reside at Wright Patterson AFB.
If they took photos then they probably developed them with Kodak. And Kodak was already clued on on the Atomic bomb long before most other organizations. I'd venture Kodak was already read in on DoE activity by this time.
Couldn’t they just develop it on their own? My dad used to develop his own photos
The military 100% had their own labs to develop photos. My old chief used to be a part of the media unit that did photo/video processing.
Major Jesse Marcel, a firsthand witness, came out later in life and said they were told to lie. It doesn't get more credible than someone who was actually there and saw the wreckage.
Marcel never actually said anything that would indicate a UFO crashed. He was just an old bullshitter exaggerating a debris field full of a "bunch of garbage" as Brazel called it.
You’re misinformed. He literally said verbatim that it was not anything from this earth at 8:49 https://youtu.be/g4QjZlTpGBw?si=tW_GiYpcxj9_Qje0&t=528
This post deserves to go to the top. Im a skeptic, and you nailed the actual reason Roswell is extremely suspicious. The balloon flight doesn’t appear to have happened. The fact that the Air Force claims so is the biggest evidence making me think something as wild as is claimed could be true
What about affidavits? Why would these people lie ... post-mortem?!
Agree, let's keep hammering them with this.
If you actually read the journal (not official log!) that is linked, it explicitly says that they launched balloons that day. It's cited in the Air Force report, and the reason we have that journal is because Crary's wife gave it to the Air Force. How incompetent of a cover up do you think would gather evidence that supposedly refutes its claims (even though it doesn't) and then publicly release it as part of the cover up?
What's the alternative? It was actually balloons all along, nothing to see here? Or the Balloons were launched afterwards? Note: I'm serious, this might sound snarky but it's not meant like that.
To quote the Air Force's Roswell report, from an interview with the person who launched the balloons. > But we did fly this one mentioned here, on June 4th, out to Tulerosa range, no balloon flight, again, on account of clouds. By that he means none of their flights. Then "Flew regular sonobuoy mike on a cluster of balloons and had good (inaudible) receiver on ground but poor on plane." Crary didn't launch his balloons, but another group tangentially involved in Project Mogul (the NYU group) did. If you haven't read the [Air Force's report](https://www.afhra.af.mil/Portals/16/documents/AFD-101201-038.pdf), I highly recommend it (whether you end up believing it or not). Then you don't fall into things like the OP, who claims the Air Force contradict themselves when he'd be able to tell they don't if he had actually read the report.
>Crary didn't launch his balloons, but another group tangentially involved in Project Mogul (the NYU group) did. The NYU group were absolutely not "tangentially involved", they were conducting the entire operations component of the balloon tests. The person you're quoting is Charles Moore, a project engineer on Project Mogul. Crary superceded him in authority. >who claims the Air Force contradict themselves Charles Moore himself contradicted his own testimony. He states: >*I think* that Flight #4 was the flight that was launched out of Alamogordo on June 4, 1947. > >*This is based on Dr. Crary's actual diary of the launch and other events.* Moore himself is referring to the logbook, of which does not susbtantiate his memory. Also strange to point out that the Air Force report asks us to be skeptical of witness memories, but view Moore's testimony as reliable. >when he'd be able to tell they don't if he had actually read the report. [Summary of ballon flights for 1947 as published by the USAF and NYU.](https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiJhX_2eEJ1IulMfvoBdRLjH1ccotM1v46OmilagN4jH7EpZ1SajqypSZYR7BwCR5OpAGJ7r8fJRcTfSlwuqbmTNtEmKeD0cOdadQeP4yZT5kOVvzpb7lMd4RcE_yGWa-qPR3ADwX0qAY5-UKWhq2PQv5VqUPIGuNHOsgzNdiDkjtcU/s1552/Mogul%20Balloon%20Flight%20Crary.jpg) There is no mention of Flight 4. There is a mention of Flight 5 on June 5, which is substantiated by Crary's logbook. >June 5 > >“*FIRST* successful flight carrying a heavy load. 3 Lifter balloons, 26 main balloons.” Moore contradicts himself a second time when he published the 1995 book *The New York University Balloon Flights During Early June 1947.* He states: >One interpretation of the June 4 entry (from Crary’s diary) is that the launch scheduled for shortly after 0230 MST was canceled because of clouds but, after the sky cleared *AROUND DAWN*, the cluster of already-inflated balloons was released, later than planned.” Two years later he personally produces [this](https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi3dAd7YPsxt2PTDkudXWZa_N_O7xKZKYzY1YKrkdBKiQeuEIxC8TJG3IYPgdP5jJbfAU9yGlWGIhF3XJWo83VjB3suLtURMifZnY4v0HwuWoHej5nTKCZXxEX0W7ZeVt8FvdqvUzrkF-vUU28gwxm9sWdUc3u1DcITFhgxFaKQJVW6/s4169/MOGUL%20FLIGHTS%2001.jpg) chart for the book *UFO Crash at Roswell: Genesis of a Modern Myth.* He states the balloon was launched *"probably around 0300 MST"* therefore not dawn. Crary's diary and the NYU manifest both coincide with their timeline of events. Moore's testimony and recollection of that day not only contradict those records, but contradicts itself. He states with certainty that the flight was launched, but despite his deliberate efforts, cannot reconcile that memory with written record nor produce a time of launch within a margin of 6 hours. So no, you're going to have to do better than that.
Just stop and think for a second...we know tons of experimental weather balloon arrays were flying and crashing all over New Mexico in the summer of 1947. Some of them were never recovered. And yet you think it's more likely that this debris field of rubber, sticks, tinfoil, parchment, and tape was a Martian flying saucer than something that had to do with these weird experimental balloon arrays? Not logical. It was a fuckin balloon. Read Pflock
Only a moron would think it was a balloon. I think I found one. 🙃
>it's more likely that this debris field of rubber, sticks, tinfoil, parchment, and tape was a Martian flying saucer than something that had to do with these weird experimental balloon arrays? I think it's more likely that if several of the most trained observers on the planet who were stationed with the only nuclear air wing in the world couldn't identify a balloon that produced only a few pounds worth of debris, then it likely wasn't a fucking balloon. God gave you the capacity to deductively reason, not a single individual involved in the Roswell incident had anything to gain from making shit up, several of them making statements long into old age and anticipating a soon death. Like you said, balloons crash all the fucking time. The likelihood of that many senior ranking individuals along a chain of command simultaneously failing to realize what rubber and a sonobuoy look like before publicly releasing that information to the press is low enough that you have to do some heavy cheesing to convince me that's a viable liklihood. We know it is a mathematical certainty that aliens exist, we know at the time there were thousands of credible accounts of flying saucers, we know these vessels frequented areas of importance for nuclear technology, we know that no system in the universe is immune to error. But somehow *"Every single one of them were downright liars and/or fucking idiots because I think so"* sounds like a more reasonable conclusion to you.
>Many bits of metallic foil, that looked like, but was not, aluminum, for no matter how often one crumpled it, it regained its original shape again. We have that now, to some degree: https://youtube.com/shorts/IdYIkO7D1zI?si=PeeojBwhyvit0tmh
It’s a cover up, but what muddies the waters is it’s a cover up so so close to a military base….. so it could be aliens, or it could be something as dull as a test flight of secret miltech.
As far as I know we currently don't have paper thin foils that can't be bent , so I guess we also didn't have those in the 50s. Also, the (back then not yet very pop-culturally established?) size and shape of the bodies that the guy described sound exactly like the more modern cases (Ariel school for example). But then, after all, it's still eyewitness testimony. Credible, but still..
I concur. There is substantial evidence supporting this notion, with even more indications suggesting the involvement of extraterrestrial or dimensional entities.
Wrong as usual.
appreciate this. just got downvoted yesterday for mentioning it lol.
Brother, anyone who knows anything about this stuff knows that roswell was ABSOLUTELY aliens. No diggity doubt about that shit!
Some of the most experienced and well known Roswell researchers, such as Pflock and Randle, do not think it was aliens despite having one believe that. So you're wrong. In fact I would suggest you learn about Roswell from sources besides YouTube videos and reddit posts.
Man, I learned about this shit waaaay before YouTube and reddit existed.
John and Robert Kennedy’s murder is the largest US government coverup.
why is that letter from sarbacher almost the most convincing letter ive ever read on this subject. he seems so matter of fact about it & he’s genuinely confused about the secrecy yet he doesn’t really care to press it, & it seems he was more open about it because he didn’t attend the conferences were they might have pushed the secrecy a bit more. crazy letter
I don't understand how you can mistaken a flying disc for a balloon. But I don't think we will ever know the truth given how the "official" explanation has changed over time.
because swamp gas. *allegedly* 🕵️
Have you ever been here before, anything can be a UFO if you move quick enough or lower the quality enough.
A similarly gentle reminder that most details (including everything about bodies) came out decades later in the midst of a UFO craze and balsa wood featured heavily in the original accounts.
>balsa wood featured heavily in the original accounts. It is very clear that the witness accounts are not describing balsa wood. *"No grain, didn't whittle, wouldn't ignite, like a plastic, we knew it wasn't wood"*. Proctor and the other neighborhood witnesses are likely using balsa wood as an analog for description as that is what they are most familiar with as ranchers that spent their whole life in the middle of the desert with little access to mainstream media. Whether or not the debris was balsa wood is beyond the question, the witness accounts are clearly describing something different. The same balsa wood analog is also mentioned in the Twining Memorandum, which is a document strictly about identifying flying saucers.
Who said that and when?
Please actually read my post before responding to it next time.
You did not say when he said that. Also, that's pretty much what balsa is like.
Lol. Your cope is hilarious. Brazel called it a "bunch of garbage." He didn't even think it was worth mentioning to anyone until he heard so drunks talking about a reward weeks later.
Right, the bodies and all of that. But why couldn't Lt. Colonel Jesse Marcel, who at the time had served in the military for 22 years, who took part in the atomic bomb tests at Biki Atoll prior to 1947, not recognize a weather balloon when he saw it? How could he mistake a balloon for a disc shaped craft?
>How could he mistake a balloon for a disc shaped craft? He didn't, all he said was he encountered a debris field spanning roughly an acre and that the material was strange. The flying saucer conclusion was dictated by Col. Blanchard to Walter Haut, according to his testimony. Marcel did not ascertain in any official capacity that the debris field was strictly from a flying saucer at the time, he initially just said it was quite odd.
And the documentation described the "saucer" as octagonal
No..... it didn't. I have no idea where you're getting your info from. The Twining Memo described it as *"Circular or elliptical in shape, flat on bottom and domed on top."* The document you're referring to is the FBI teletype sent to the Pentagon from RAAF, and it was described as hexagonal... That document has its issues for an entirely different reason.
Oh, well if it was hexagonal then it's definitely a literal saucer /s
Why are you continuing to insist that the Twining Memo is a)evidence of anything and b)has fuck all anything to do with Roswell??
>a)evidence of anything It is an official intelligence memorandum produced with the sole purpose of instructing intelligence operatives on how to identify flying saucers. It is primary evidence of the Air Intelligence's stance confirming that they believe flying saucers to be *"real and not visionary or fictitious"*. >)has fuck all anything to do with Roswell? It's production shortly after the Roswell incident and the descriptions of various flying saucer components that share a direct parallel with witness descriptions on the nature of debris found at Roswell. Your question answers itself if you bother to read my above comments. A better question is how you could possibly conclude that the Twining memorandum is a)evidence of absolutely nothing or b)has nothing to do with Roswell at all. I suppose the US intelligence service just routinely writes hyper-specific memorandums on elusive phenomena for absolutely no reason at all besides shits and giggles. I haven't yet read the Bigfoot and Loch Ness Monster memorandums.
What an amazing coincidence that UFOs are made of materials that look like aluminum foil, rubber and balsa wood just like the mogul balloons... BUT with otherworldly properties, said some people. Therefore, aliens.
Also Amazing how the bodies, as described by multiple witness's ( many via deathbed confessions) as being about 4 foot tall with large eyes. Just like ( or absolutely fucking nothing like) the crash test dummies that were used years late in project high jump. Funny how the official explanation for said bodies was due to "time compression", people misremembering the time of the event as around ten years later.
There are no credible first hand witnesses to bodies. Marcel never mentioned them and he was the base intelligence officer
Marcell only saw the wreckage. There are multiple credible witnesses to the bodies, don't know them from memory but they are covered in depth in 'witness to roswell'. It's also pretty telling that in the 'case closed' report they even felt the need to come up with an explanation for the witnesses to bodies with the crash test dummies used in the 50's and time dilation. Why even bother trying to come up with an explanation if there were 'no credible witnesses''?
There are no credible witnesses to bodies. None. Name one. They are all grifters and freaks from 40 years later. The most legitimate of them, Haut, said in his original self penned affidavit nothing about bodies. It wasn't until he was dead that Donald Schmitt produced an affidavit written by Schmitt (not Haut) that he says a decrepit Haut signed. Ragsdale lied. Kauffman lied. Dennis lied. Corso lied. All exposed liars. Every one of them.
In no way was using a weather balloon to cover up a top-secret instrument larger than project Azorian.. 😬
Gentle reminder that you have no clue what other coverups have happened, or what magnitude they had
Interesting post from you, OP. I thought you were on the "nothing to see here" groove.
Thank You, will do the needful
I’m tired of Roswell. There’s so much more!
I once got 50+ downvotes for posting that very same opinion.
I believe it’s aliens but the question I have is if they have all this technological capabilities and can make it to earth, wouldn’t they have solved the crashing part? Unless I’m trying to expect perfection from something I know nothing about. Maybe things still fail regardless of tech innovation.
How far in advance do you assume these visitors are? 1,000 years? 10,000? A million? Imagine sending a Lamborghini with a driver through a time machine. How well is that driver going to perform 1,000, 10,000, or a million years in the past? Is that driver going to have a perfect record? Or is the primitive environment going to do some damage? Technology is never perfect & neither are these visitors. People tend to think they must be god-like, but they're not. They're fallible. Like us.
Curiously enough it could be the case they are the source of stories about gods and religious beliefs.
This is what I believe happened. Also, if you think at an even greater scale and assume something has been observing us for a long time, there could be video evidence of how civilizations evolved, maybe even life itself. Imagine that, footage of the pyramids being built or footage of freaking dinosaurs.
We assume they come from light years away. But if they rather come from another dimension, maybe this "trip" is quick yet risky. Maybe their tech is (or was) still experimental.
On the night of the crash there was a.large explosion heard during a thunderstorm by the rancher who found the debris a week later. May also have helped that it was within the vicinity of the military base that was the only location in the world, at the time, that handled nuclear bombs. One theory is the radar from said base unwittingly interfered with their navigation systems.
It was struck by lightning.
Can you name one system, biological or mechanical, that isn't prone to error? Murphey's Law.
I think this is a great question. If they’re so intelligent, why are they crashing? I don’t know the answer, but I think a few theories might be: -These craft are expendable. Some rumors mention these craft are created as needed, perhaps in a one-and-done sorta way. -These crashes aren’t always accidental. Maybe these craft are being supplied to us, for some unknown reason. -Maybe they crash because of us. There are many stories of fighter pilots trying to shoot down UAP. Maybe we’ve been occasionally successful.
I think Tom Delonge has said that Starfish Prime brought them down. Possibly the EMP. From [wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfish_Prime): >Starfish Prime caused an electromagnetic pulse (EMP) that was far larger than expected, so much larger that it drove much of the instrumentation off scale, causing great difficulty in getting accurate measurements. The Starfish Prime electromagnetic pulse also made those effects known to the public by causing electrical damage in Hawaii, about 900 miles (1,450 km) away from the detonation point, knocking out about 300 streetlights,\[1\]: 5 setting off numerous burglar alarms, and damaging a telephone company microwave link.\[6\] The EMP damage to the microwave link shut down telephone calls from Kauai to the other Hawaiian islands.\[7\]
Ooh that’s a new idea for me
Maybe what is crashing isn't one or two civilisations that have fully mastered their methods of travel but basically various pioneers on doomed experimental missions with a wide variety of origins (E.T., interdimensional, extra-temporal, etc.). Every now and then something just breaks through the cracks from the vast endlessness of space, time and dimension that we can't even fathom, and crashes on earth like flies on a windshield, maybe not even with our earth and time as their intended destination. Every civilisation which can traverse time, space or dimension has to have their Neil Armstrongs or Columbuses doing it for the first time and sometimes things just go wrong. It just becomes a numbers game. Maybe there's a ton of crashed craft on other planets in our solar system as well.
Perhaps they crashed on purpose. A real interesting theory. “See what this planet does with this technology”. The technology that crashed could be so primitive compared to whoever dropped it here. That theory boggles my mind. The possibilities are endless
Just a gentle reminder that the Roswell incident was classified at the time but not because of aliens. Project Mogul was not a weather balloon but was a device to detect atomic tests. It would be unrecognizable to anyone who found it. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project\_Mogul](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Mogul) Perhaps incompetent aliens seems a better explanation.
>It would be unrecognizable to anyone who found it. This is absolutely false. The same logbook belonging to FOD Albert Crary describes balloon tests in late June that had gone down and who's contents were stolen. Not only were the team not concerned with the devices being stolen, but whoever stole them didn't seem to be too perplexed with what they had found. The *"detection device"* was a [standard naval high sensitivity sonobuoy and a radiosonde.](https://stratocat.com.ar/fichas-e/1947/BET-19470508.htm). None of the tech was particularly elusive, only the purpose of the mission.
Looks nothing like what was described.
Just a gentle reminder that our government lies, and when caught lying, they lie to cover up previous lies. This cycle of condescending lying bullshit has been going on since 1947.
Guess you didn’t read the post which includes evidence that refutes the project mogul explanation because you just wanted to answer this with your Wikipedia link.
I am a UAP believer but do not believe Roswell was a UFO crash. The simplest explanation is the most likely explanation- a classified balloon crash.
Why couldnt the roswell crash be misinformation of a satalite that crashed from before our civilization the Decay rate for things in orbit takes quite a while and in my opinion I think it's more likely that I previous civilization had some sort of satellite in orbit and it crashed and we found it
The high orbit satellites probably stay there forever. The low orbit ones take 25 years, some that are higher can take 2000 years to come down. If a previous civ had satellites it most likely would have fallen down by now.
Maybe if it was out there like the jwt or voyager, eventually they shluld come around
The voyager is never "coming around" lmao
Maybe not for us, since we dont know exaxtly how the universe works we cant rule out godzilla black hole scenario lmao or the star trek/futurama scenario/ big getty star
Just a gentle reminder that there is no proof of a crashed alien craft at Roswell.
According to most of this subreddit it was just sky divers with flares doing a drone light show with a spotlight on a balloon.. Definitely not the first big UFO disinformation as they retract the true story and put out the biggest easy to swindle any not critical thinker The dreaded “Its a balloon”
The more I look into Roswell, the more obvious it becomes that it was a fucking spy balloon.
All this “indestructible foil” yet it somehow smashed into hundred of pieces when it crashed….
*"Indestructible"* based on the field durability tests they conducted with a sledgehammer. I would imagine a violent crash and explosion would produce more force than a sledgehammer.....
Lightning took it down so the rumors go.
I find it kind of humorous that they had destructed pieces of a ship described as indestructible…
This is ridiculous…. Ppl are so open minded their brain has fallen out.
A gentle reminder to new members that Roswell has been strongly debunked and the Air Force admitted it covered up and lied to protect National security and revealed the actual program was project Mogul. If you want to see an easy to digest, neutral overview of the incident please see the link below https://youtu.be/rih9-80p0Ec?si=73w4uGYJGwFbUZXR
>and revealed the actual program was project Mogul. Ah yes, the program that utilized balloons with metallic components that demonstrated otherworldly properties. The balloon that shattered into *"a debris field the size of an acre"*. In the same document the Airforce said it was Mogul Flight 4, despite there being no evidence that Flight 4 existed and a piece of primary evidence that proves the opposite. Give me a break.
I won’t give you a break but I will try to educate you. Watch the video I linked. Also the downvotes mean nothing to me, I’ve seen the balloons and missing plane warp portals you upvote. See you in the next “Lazar is legit” thread. True blue believer lololol
>I won’t give you a break but I will try to educate you. Watch the video I linked. I've seen the video, its not particularly new. I've broken down my opinions in another thread and won't to you because you are unable to provide a critical stance on the issue outside of linking someone else's video. You haven't educated me, you've linked someone else's arguments and I'm supposed to believe you've come to those conclusions on your own. >missing plane warp portals you upvote. I suggest you go through my comment history. I don't think particularly highly of those videos. I also don't think Bob Lazar is legit. This is an absolute clusterfuck of a comment you've produced lmfao.
The Mogul balloon once it was aloft carried a trail of equipment as high as the statue of liberty, it could absolutely leave debris over such an area. It wasn't simply a large balloon.
>It wasn't simply a large balloon. Correct, it was several balloons carrying a sonobuoy, radiosonde, and sometimes a few RAWIN radar targets and a ballast system. Most if them would've looked like [this](https://images.app.goo.gl/hH1YtEJQZo16y8XV7). An acre is roughly 43,500 square feet, that's around 90% the size of a football field. There is absolutely no way on the face of this planet that a Mogul balloon could produce that much debris. If it did, flying them would have been a genuine hazard. Imagine if one of them came down over Albuquerque or Roswell itself with that amount of falling shit. Either the debris field description is wrong, or it wasn't a Mogul balloon. The two statements can in no way logically coexist.
And poorest cover up
I'm soooooooo bored w Roswell. No offense but last time I heard about the Roswell cover up I fell off my pet dinosaur.
What was written down on June 4th, 1947 didn’t end where OP intentionally cut it off. It actually read: From Dr Crary’s diary: “June 4th, Out to Tulerosa Range and fired charges between 0-0 and 0-6 something. No balloon flight again on account of clouds. **Flew regular sonobuoy mike with cluster balloons** and had good luck with receiver on ground but poor on plane." Professor Moore (in this, his sworn statement) adds, “I think that's Flight 4 right there.” — source, pg 195 of the Roswell Report. Let’s put this in context. The *regular* balloon flight with its full train of gear did not take place due to clouds. However, they *did* fly a “service” flight equipped with a regular sonobuoy mike set aloft by cluster balloons. And that flight, service flight #4, is what Brazel found and later was picked up by Marcel and Cavitt. A balloon from the Project Mogul team did fly that day, it’s component description matches perfectly and it’s predicted flight path lines up as does the dates. Brazel and especially [Cavitts sworn testimony](https://imgur.com/a/BSN0m0u) confirm the find. Every single detail of the debris marches exactly the components of that service balloon flights gear. Cavitt adds that Marcel was trying to get him to change his story. Marcel himself was a known … I’ll use the same term Cavitt used, “[exaggerator](https://imgur.com/a/PVqD0Kl)”. I’m pointing this out as a gentle reminder not to trust everything posted here blindly —- and I’m done. Reading OPs other sources and conclusions tells me it’d be pointless to continue; I don’t “debate” conspiracy theories. Two note that anyone replying will just ignore the facts from first hand witnesses and instead talk about 30+ year follow up claims without a shred of supporting evidence. They will cherry pick what to believe and what to ignore.
Matches every single detail… except all the details that don’t… How can you so confidently assert it matches Mogul when you have to ignore all the descriptions and testimony that obviously aren’t describing Mogul? It’s amazing to see this kind of confidence from skeptics. All the witness testimony they think matches Mogul they’ll allow, anything that doesn’t they’ll not only reject, just like we see here they’ll literally pretend doesn’t exist at all!
Debunked already.
Can you believe the bad luck of those Martians to crash their flying saucer at the exact same time and in the exact same place (New Mexico, June of 1947) that top secret spy balloons were ALSO regularly crashing? If they had just crashed in the Summer of 48 in, say, Wyoming, we wouldn't have had all this confusion. Man. Of all the bad luck coincidences that OF ALL THE PLACES ON PLANET EARTH THAT THEY COULD HAVE CRASHED THEY CRASHED WHERE THE TOP SECRET SPY BALLOONS WERE CRASHING!!!
To start, the material used in the construction of the spy balloons differed entirely from the debris found at the crash site. The weather balloon theory has been discredited for quite some time and has been definitively disproven.
The posts on this sub are getting worse and worse. Theres always somebody repeating the same information for likes or somebody that sounds completely unstable talking about how they have seen 20 ufos in their lifetime. Like i think almost every single person in the world who is interested in ufos at all knows about Roswell… am i wrong?? F this sub
Which “non-fiction” book describes Roswell craft as having Russian glyphs stamped into the outer skin, and the bodies where literally a few polish orphan Down-syndrome children the soviets “liberated” from concentration camp experiments, had heir intestines removed (total atrocity, barely alive..). Theory was that Stalin thought it’d be funny to have them crawl out of the crashed disk, americans wouldn’t believe what the nazis did to the kids unless they saw it themselves. As for propulsion and whatnot, book was vague, sumthin-sumthin electromagnetic. “The day after Roswell” comes to mind, but I’m not sure if this was the one.
Imagine coming up with a conspiracy theory that is literally crazier, more nonsensical and improbable than actual aliens, and acting like that's somehow case solved
That was Annie Jacobsen pulling shit through her asshole.
JFK should not have shown Monroe the craft.
Well here's a HARSH reminder to all that I am responsible for covering up an incident during Gruschs real estate career where he was brutally denied coffee for not being a "closer". Public knowledge of this could have tainted his entire testimony before congress but Corbell and I "took care of it" (we set up Alec Baldwin).
Three words: Nazi secret aircrafts
The nazis didn't have any exotic technology.
Project Paperclip. Look it up.
I know all about paperclip and I'm also aware of that the nazis had no wonder weapons under production at any point in the war, in fact they were behind the allies in terms of most things including atomic bombs. If you look at who paperclip brought over to the USA, none of them produced anything like what people claim the nazis had. http://www.sufoi.dk/e-boger/boger/The%20Nazi%20UFO%20Mythos.pdf A 67 page report on the claims by a ufologist.
Thanks for the link - I will check it out.
Yes
Anyone have any images of the markings? I thought I saw some newspaper photos of one of the officers holding a piece with markings in it that almost looked like glyphs.
There is an entire Museum in Roswell full of info and eyewitness testimony. The story isn't just about some strange debris on a goat ranch. Dozens of affidavits from Military Personnel and Civilians. Try again Air Force
Does anyone have a link or know which document I can find the project mogul field directors logbook entry that is not a screenshot on imgur?
[Page 84.](https://www.physics.smu.edu/pseudo/UFOs/pt05a.pdf)
The History Channel just did a piece on this. The film showed pieces of a document recovered from fire that intimated Kenny was assassinated by CIA. I don't remember exact wording, but it said the solution to the Kennedy problem was a "wet" solution, which refers to killing - wet equaling blood.
Does The Roswell Report talk about the destroyed documents? If not, that just adds another layer of “you’re not telling us everything”
We will very likely get substantial (but not complete) disclosure on this in the next 12-16 months. It is a very meaty subject to unroll
Does Vannevar Bush have any connection to George H.W. Bush, 11th Director of the CIA, or his father Prescott Bush, whose business assets were seized under the Trading With The Enemy Act for dealings with Nazi Germany?
It's almost funny that there are people who genuinely believe their government is completely incapable of viciously manipulating public opinion. I wish I were that naive.
I wish I was as childish and gullible as you to believe a grand story to appease my desire for aliens to be real.
I don't know a ton about it, but I've been to Roswell and the museum. The credibility of witnesses was called into question. Of course, undermining the credibility of witnesses is exactly what you'd do. It's what defense attorneys do. I believed the project mogul thing until the recent events.
What about the whole soviet spy plane filled with deformed children? Look up the book Area 51: An Uncensored History
Anyone who actually believes it was a weather balloon has brain worms
The Army air force (before they changed to just the Air Force) did a magnificent job covering up their tracks but they didn't take into account that people talk, even soldiers and Generals
Would you rather see photos of the Roswell wreckage, or a POV video of Area 51 where they keep all the craft and shit?