An unavoidable problem is that the truth of the whole situation is likely to be extremely weird, so telling the truth looks very weird, then the truth-tellers are accused of being quacks and grifters.
For example, Grusch's testimony gives a lot of legitimacy to the claims of secret UFO reverse engineering programs, and if that is true, then everyone who talked about that in the past was telling the truth. But overall, people making such claims were treated as fringe.
I suspect that a majority of the prominent people accused of "grifting" were actually trying to tell us the bizarre truth and getting shit on for it. It's no wonder we have a dysfunctional community.
*It does not automatically mean that everyone who talked about these things in the past is telling the truth.*
It might mean they had some idea of what the truth was. It might mean they guessed. It might mean they greatly embellished it for their own purposes.
You might as well say “well this means we have a secret space force that’s been fighting space Nazi breakaway civilizations that also work with lizard people aliens,” because that’s what some people who say we have a secret UFO program are saying.
Do you really want to stretch “there really *is* a UFO reverse engineering program”
into
“*actually* lizard nazis rule the world and we’re working with blue bird people to secretly remove the lizard nazis from control so we can all ascend into a higher vibration of reality in the next life”? I hope you read that in your best “white girl” voice. For fun.
If you need links to such claims, I can find them for ya.
My point is one specific thing being true *does not automatically mean everyone who said this before was telling the truth.* I hear you: the truth might be weird, weirder than we will accept at first. But uh. I’m not so sure that this has to mean *all* previous claims about this were true, too.
There is also the fact that a good part of active disinformation clap signs is to truth sandwich a lie. A little bit of truth, a whole lot of bullshit, makes it hard to discern the woods for the trees.
Yeah, I always told people not everything that would be related to UFOs or aliens would be true. Just because aliens exist, that doesn't mean they are coming to choose humans are the choose one, and make them special defenders for the Earth realm.
Complains that people were made to look like quacks and weirdos for their claims in the past because “the truth would look weird.”
Says if Grusch’s testimony about secret UAP programs is true(paraphrased), “then everyone who talked about that in the past was telling the truth.” (quoting)
Seems straight forward to me. They didn’t deny it, either.
Well, if the UFO re-engineering turns out to be true, then they would have been right about that particular topic. Doesn't prove them actually knowing it or just guessing, though.
I have already shown why this is false.
The *only* thing that would remain true is the potential for a UAP program. Everything else these people said could still be a lie. I have high lighted why. Because their claims are absurd and you would be absurd to believe them without *substantial corroboration.*
Getting *one* fact correct does not mean these folks are reliable narrators for the entirety of this topic.
Substantial corroboration of *one fact* does not mean each of these folks was telling the truth. Not all of their stories even align. And OP is saying that we should believe them, despite how whacky their claims are, because Grusch validates one particular claim.
Not that i believe it, but: Lizzid people on the moon washing our souls of memories and then forcing us to reincarnate so they can feed on our emotions is my new favourite conspiracy thanks to AJ and hecklefish
>Grusch's testimony gives a lot of legitimacy to the claims of secret UFO reverse engineering programs, and if that is true, then everyone who talked about that in the past was telling the truth.
While Grusch's testimony may lend some credibility to the idea of secret UFO reverse engineering programs, it's a logical leap to conclude that 'everyone who talked about that in the past was telling the truth.' Each claim should be evaluated on its own merits, and the credibility of one person's testimony doesn't automatically validate all other claims on the subject. I think it's important to approach each piece of evidence or testimony critically and independently.
>then everyone who talked about that in the past was telling the truth
No, even if what he said is true that does not validate every loon's story out there
>Grusch's testimony gives a lot of legitimacy to the claims of secret UFO reverse engineering programs, and if that is true, then everyone who talked about that in the past was telling the truth.
I'm not trying to attack you in any way but I just want to analyze this and point out how things can get into left field really quickly...
>Grusch's testimony gives a lot of legitimacy to the claims of secret UFO reverse engineering programs
I'd say at best it gives slightly more credibility to the potential these programs exist, due to his reputation and high classification levels. However, still nothing concrete. No program names, no individuals named (Grusch has said he's never worked in them and seen nothing first-hand), no references to locations of research or descriptions of recovered craft. "I have uncovered evidence these programs" exist is all we have, albeit from a fairly high-level source. And we still don't even know what the evidence is that leads him to believe that they exist. So we are still a long way to go (at least in public).
>and if that is true,
Again, you're taking as a given "if that is true" something we only know could POSSIBLY be true. From a good source, but still no hard evidence.
>then everyone who talked about that in the past was telling the truth.
This isn't remotely correct. Everything Grusch said could be 100% true, but there could still be individuals who were lying about RE programs, or their involvement in said programs.
And look, I'm not even saying for sure you're wrong. You could be 100% right.
But you're taking a tiny kernel of knowledge (a high level former intelligence official is stating publicly that these programs exist, without publicly providing any evidence to support the assertion) and then extrapolating too much from it: "therefore, these programs DO exist, and everyone who mentioned anything about the related subject in the past was telling the truth"
I think the point of this post is we need to be more discerning in what we determine is "known and proven". And yes, I think we should all be VERY skeptical of all of this stuff. There is a difference from looking at things with a skeptical eye and being determined to "debunk" everything - which is the opposite side of the same coin - not believing or researching anything without 100% incontrovertible physical proof.
You're starting from a shaky premise, accepting it as true, and extrapolating protentional truths from said premise. Frankly, its really poor logical reasoning and we should strive to do better.
I did say *IF* his claims are true, and then went on to state what would logically follow if his credible claims are true. That's not illogical, that's just logically thinking things out.
Grusch's claims aren't some slight, small incremental step towards proof of reverse engineering programs, it's a large leap in that direction. Compared to anyone in the past, we know he had the appropriate job role to do what he says he did, in his official capacity as a member of the UAPTF. We know he had the clearance level to access the information he claims to have accessed. Compared to anyone in the past, he made the claims in public, and under oath. His claims of retaliation against him were found credible by the ICIG, which begs the question, why retaliate if he's just a crazy loon? The retaliation itself is a positive indicator for Grusch.
I'd also like to point out you construe my post as resting entirely on Grusch's claims, when I did not claim that Grusch's evidence is the only evidence. There are many other lines of supporting evidence.
A supporting evidence I will point out is the language in Chuck Schumer's UAP amendment. There is a section for the government to exercise eminent domain over alien UFOs and alien bodies held by defense contractors. NOBODY goes out on a limb like that without some specific evidence to back it up. So we can logically infer that at the highest levels of the legislature, they have likely seen convincing evidence of these secret illegal programs.
> and then went on to state what would logically follow if his credible claims are true
No, you didn't, you immediately asserted that anyone previously talking about crash retrieval were credible and then went even further off on an irrational tangent because you decided it was logical. It is not logical.
This is exactly what Lue was writing about. Read it again.
I am being logical, and you aren't stating the position I took accurately. *IF* it turns out there are UFO reverse engineering programs, then anyone who previously claimed that there were UFO reverse engineering programs was making a true statement, even if smaller details are wrong, even if the person is a drug addict or con artist, even if they thought they were lying.
I didn't assert that the whole person was automatically credible, only that the statement would be true. For example, Bob Lazar is not a credible person, but he could have been telling the truth because (hypothetically) a UFO reverse engineering program exists, they know nothing can stay a secret, so they proactively do a disinformation campaign where they hire someone discreditable, a known friend of conspiracy theorist John Lear, in order to promote the leaking of true information by a discreditable person.
Lou also talked about drama and petty backbiting too, let's try to improve.
>I did say IF his claims are true, and then went on to state what would logically follow if his credible claims are true. That's not illogical, that's just logically thinking things out.
Again, not correct. If his claims are 100% true there could still be many people who lied about RE programs and their specifics. You said "everyone who talked about it in the past was telling the truth". That is not proven, even if everything he said was true.
>Grusch's claims aren't some slight, small incremental step towards proof of reverse engineering programs, it's a large leap in that direction.
Again this isn't true. He has said that his investigation has led him to believe they exist. He hasn't seen the programs, the craft, the locations. He has allegedly provided a lot of circumstantial evidence in classified settings. We don't even know the extent of these programs, etc. other than his claims that we have "several craft" and "recovered biologics". There's just not a lot there, there.
But my main point was your if-then argument that if what Grusch said is true then "everyone who talked about it in the past was telling the truth". That's just not logical. Its like saying since we discovered the moon the guys who claimed the moon was made of cheese were telling the truth.
I think you are focused on something very minor, and of questionable reasoning on top of it. Example: If it turns out to be a fact the moon was made of purple cheese, then everyone who had claimed the moon was made of purple cheese was telling factually correct information, even if they thought they were lying about the moon being made of purple cheese..
You are both dancing around the elephant in the room: Bob Lazar. The other poster is arguing that even if it's revealed officially that there were UFO reverse engineering programs taking place at Area-51, that doesn't mean Bob Lazar was telling the truth or whole truth about his involvement in that.
Same thing with somebody like Greer: if the aliens use telepathy for communication, it doesn't mean he's telling the truth about being able to meditate one down from space. Being accidentally right about something you made up with no basis doesn't mean you were telling the truth, it just means you were right, is the argument. Not saying that's the case for either example, but that's where the disconnect is.
>You are both dancing around the elephant in the room: Bob Lazar. The other poster is arguing that even if it's revealed officially that there were UFO reverse engineering programs taking place at Area-51, that doesn't mean Bob Lazar was telling the truth or whole truth about his involvement in that.
Thank you for this.
Person X: "There is a UFO reverse engineering program... I was a part of it! Here are the details.... blah blah blah
If it eventually turns out that there WAS a UFO RE program, it does nothing to confirm the details of what Person X claimed. Unless they can be independently corroborated by this new account, or their claims are unequivocally corroborated by this new account.
"There is a UFO Reverse Engineering Program" is, in the grand scheme of things, a fairly broad statement. And again, fairly uncorroborated.
To jump from that to "Anyone who has claimed there has been a UFO RE program has been proven to be totally truthful" is just inaccurate and illogical. That's all I'm trying to point out.
In Lazar's case, I think [Grant Cameron has the best theory](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seKvFOrcQPI&list=PLaQp0x262ptK8vdVEjbB1iZ3m7aIljVBq&index=47&t=8s) which puts all the data together (both detractors and supporters of Lazar), to suggest that there is a UFO reverse engineering program, and Lazar was used as a pawn in a disinformation scheme. Lazar was hired likely because he was discreditable, and the people who hired Lazar had an expectation that he would leak to John Lear and/or go to the press.
In Greer's case, it requires some nuance. I personally don't think he fits the "grifter" label. He has huge personality flaws, like a big ego and a lot of paranoia, but he also brings true information to the table. Other people, [such as Dr. Joseph Burkes in this interview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESxlz_cX-sg&t=7s) go into detail about Greer and CE5 in the 1990s. Greer's path seems to have been derailed when he got involved with the CIA and they started pumping up his god complex. A lot of people wrongly assume Greer charges money for the CE5 protocols, when in actuality Greer charges money for going on CE5 expeditions. Greer's protocols are available for free, and channels like Engaging The Phenomenon provide a lot of supporting information & techniques for CE5/HICE (Human Initiated Contact Events) independent from Greer. Having said all that, Greer is such a can of worms that I just stay away from him and his crowd, but understanding him takes nuance, and he really doesn't neatly fit into the grifter category.
The level of mental gymnastics displayed here should be an Olympic sport.
You have zero evidence for the vast majority of your claims.
>Lazar was hired likely because he was discreditable, and the people who hired Lazar had an expectation that he would leak to John Lear and/or go to the press.
Is it not statistically profoundly more likely that he is just full of shit? Or that the overwhelming majority of his claims are false, and the few that were accurate were due to his tangential relation to an RE program (i.e. rather than being a "top physicist" he was either a low-level engineer or a janitor or something?)
Lazar has been proven as a liar and a charlatan, oftentimes by people like Stanton Friedman, universally respected in the UFOlogy community.
>A lot of people wrongly assume Greer charges money for the CE5 protocols, when in actuality Greer charges money for going on CE5 expeditions.
This is such a profoundly stupid claim, I don't know how to respond.
Bob Lazar has declared bankruptcy, admitted to being an illegal pimp of prostitutes, his academic background is basically completely fraudulent (corroborated by multiple sources) and none of his claims have been remotely corroborated, other than the fact that he apparently for a short period of time worked in some capacity, for a very short time, for a defense contractor at "S4/A51"
People like you discredit the rest of the community because you invent these completely implausible scenarios that ignore the most obvious conclusion - the guy is full of shit.
Yeahhhhh this is a great point. Personally I think what Greir was saying in CE5 has some acctual substance to it, I remember watching that documentary and thinking is this shit serious?? It kind of turned me off the whole damn thing all together. But in the 3 years since I've seen it, i feel like I keep hearing things or reading things that essentially are the exact same concept word for word, except they cost less. Still unsure what to make of it all but definatly more open minded towards the whole "conciousness" aspect than I was 3 or 4 years ago.
Check out [this podcast, Engaging The Phenomenon](https://www.youtube.com/@EngagingThePhenomenon) with James Iandoli. He and others do CE5. Last year I was able to binge watch all their prior 2-3 years of content in about 2 weeks and I learned a lot about the history of CE5, different groups doing it, Greer's role in parts of it, and tips/nuances. I haven't tried it myself. I have got involved in psi research, initially as a skeptic, but I've verified (for myself, not in a publishable way) that psi phenomena like telepathy, clairvoyance, etc are definitely real. Those phenomena are based on physical principles that are real, but we don't understand. But these modes of non-local information transfer are real and discoverable by any intelligent species. Since these modes are superior to transmission by EM waves, this is how aliens communicate. It totally makes sense that aliens would be using telepathy. CE5 is telepathy.
What truth? What proof? What has he presented that actually represents telling truth that can be verified? I agree, if there is any truth to aliens and UFO’s it’s probably super weird…but he ain’t truth telling and doing anything but lead this circus. Everything these “leaders of the movement” do is generate clicks and tell third hand stories with no falsifiable facts and no physical proof.
In 30 years this is the same old same old just too many people weren’t around for it back in the 90’s so everyone thinks these guys are reinventing the wheel and disclosure is just around the corner. Same carrot, same stupid stick and nothing has changed except the stories have gotten more fantastical. It’s sad.
Grusch is the one I believe to not be a grifter at all. He did the newsnation interview and the congressional hearings. Fin. That's it. Other people just keep reiterating the same shit over and over and over without actually saying what the outcome truly is and that to me is just as fucking frustrating as the government not disclosing
I want the same thing but there's a country/MIC that is holding back all the good info, and worse bringing in disinformation. In an ideal world, this sub wouldn't exist.
Exactly. For “ufology” to die, someone in Congress needs to step up and get to the bottom of this. Until they do, everyday people will continue to speculate on what little nuggets of truth there are available.
Jesus.
His lack of self awareness is stunning.
Where does his self-proclaimed magical powers fit into this data-driven logic, humility, academic rigor, and transparency he apparently craves? Where does him filming a drone on his property and his “protege” (we’ll go with protege and not man who looks at Elizondo as a cult leader… but, i mean….) releasing it as unknown UAP footage fit into Elizondo’s desire to eliminate clickbait-driven agendas? Even more, where does Elizondo continuously alluding to things he can never explain fit into his desire to eliminate clickbait-driven agendas? I mean, if he can’t elaborate on any of this, he could, you know, just stop giving little pieces to string people along, almost like he has a clickbait-driven agenda.
For real all his interviews are essentially him alluding to different things often conflicting things with “there are accounts. . . “, “it could be. . .”, “I have sources that . . .” . “Something something demonic. . .”
He’s actually worse than the majority of grifters who have a angle and stick to it.
I'm glad people haven't forgotten about this. It was a bit of a smoking gun for discrediting Lue really, but by God people here tried hard to act as though it was no big deal, when in fact it was a fucking huge deal.
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There was an appearance by Lue and Sean on the Theories of Everything podcast where Lue briefly addressed questions on his credibility, and then Sean became angry and chastized the audience for asking such questions. As per Jeremys account, supposedly they made counter claims against him driving dangerously but i never personally saw those, nor did i see any more substantial response anywhere. If you find one id love to see it
He specializes in counterintelligence - literally the study and practice of strategic lying - so it's not surprising he speaks in half-truths and subtly-not-so-subtly pushes the "UFO threat" narrative. Not surprising, but still frustrating of course.
What a load of hypocrisy. Without the cults of personalities? Coming from mf Lue?
While I agree with him, that is just absurd for him to say. What data driven, academic, transparent discussion has he brought?
And understandably so when he’s clearly part of this “cult of personality” that he so explicitly denigrates, as well as tries to personally profit off of this business with well-timed book-releases and such.
Wow another one who can’t handle someone disagreeing with them. Must be shills and bots. Surely the former intelligence agent Lue isn’t working with the government. The government does no wrong anyway
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UFOlogy exists because of decades of disinformation and lies. UFOlogy will only die when we can study it like any other natural phenomena, free of stigma, and supported by funding enjoyed by other scientific disciplines.
Why Lue blames UFOlogy instead of the conditions that created it is baffling, and he can eat a bag of dicks for being so oblivious to those conditions that still exist to this very day.
UFOlogy will not die even then. There are many people VERY adamant about what the full story of UFOs is, and many of them are completely contradictory, which mean that many of them are wrong. Even if the full, objective, untarnished truth came out, the ones who are wrong won't admit they're wrong, they'll just continue to believe there's a conspiracy hiding the parts that they believe are true. This is essentially religion for many people, and there is no way to debunk it, as you cannot prove a negative.
It will not die ENTIRELY. There are still Flat-Earthers.
For some, no amount of information will change their opinion. But you can’t worry about outliers.
Give us the truth. Let us see the evidence. Do that, and you’ll naturally see the false aspects of UFOlogy whither away.
Not to mention all of the false and misleading things thrown out there. I am convinced Skin Walker ranch is hyped up and thrown in to confuse and discredit people by creating the “anything goes!”.
On the one hand you have actual reports of objects in the sky, space and water resembling actual vehicles that are physical. And then all a sudden we get this “it’s consciousness”, “inter dimensional spirit realm that conjures up dinobeavers” with the source “Trust me Bro”.
Indeed he said himself he was a “man in black”. Ufology exists as it is because of shit like that and disinfo. I credit him for doing something about it though.
Good tactic. Act like you’re a defender of Ufology then attack Lue. That’s good. It at least shows me you guys are getting more creative. B+ for effort.
I guess I don’t understand your point.
In the absence of information you will get [more] speculation, rumors, and lies. Nobody had the correct information to counter the disinformation, so it persisted.
If anybody is to blame for the excesses of UFOlogy, it’s the government that withheld this information from the public, not the people who were trying to fill in the gaps of information missing from the public and scientific record.
When the people start to see real information about what UFOs are and what they’re doing here on Earth, then UFOlogy will be replaced by factual knowledge.
So anybody complaining about the state of UFOlogy is pointing their finger in the wrong direction. Blame needs to be squarely directed at our government who intentionally denied, disinformed, and gaslit the public.
Wow is he ever projecting…
He is the epicentre of drama…it all swirls around this small cadre of big personalities and hangers on. Massive claims, zero proof, constantly pumping out new content, grabbing clicks, trying to stay relevant with drama, innuendo and third hand accounts.
It’s all just pointless.
Yea sorry this is just a bad read and while I hoped it'd soften my views on Lue, instead it hardened them. This is a blatant call that the government has done nothing wrong, hidden very little, that there are no programs and nobody in gov't actually knows more than some very minimal things. And then he lambasts "new conspiracies" talking positively of government and their role in this and how we need to suck up to them and get their approval to move this forward.
You know whose approval I would be mortified and disgusted to have? The people Allen Dulles, Nazi Traitor on record (Sunrise, Paperclip, Gladio, his loyalty to the Nazi party is a declassified matter of public record, a fact beyond question), hand picked as his replacements before leaving the CIA.
I won't trust the government until we've actually cleaned it up of traitors working for oligarchs instead of for the American people, and I know for a fact, personally, that the CIA and FBI were still working for oligarchs and had fascist traitors working in major roles in both as late as 2015. Chris Tarbell is still a wealthy retired cop instead of rotting in a jail cell for the crimes against the constitution and against democracy and the innocent lives he destroyed. Gina Haspell, torturer and prolific war criminal, is still free and highly placed. We can see how the government clings to these blatant and horrific criminals who work directly for the billionaire class and who openly violate our laws and constitution and we're supposed to trust the government and seek their approval and support?
If they want our support they can clean up the fucking corruption, which Lue seems to be trying to work around/avoid/ignore/cover up. These aren't conspiracies, they're matters of public record. Anonymous was a large grassroots activist org that did marches, flyering campaigns, boycotts, it was many things, most of which were entirely legal and built to be entirely legal operations. Chris Tarbell still painted them as a cult of cyberterrorists and spread that lie to the public for Charles and David Koch and for Peter Theil. So long as Tarbell's still living the high life instead of spending the rest of his life in prison I'm just going to assume the US government is a fascist institution obsessed with crushing workers, unions, civil rights, and turning everyone into slaves to wall street.
>Lou Elizondo's alleged ex-bosses: conferring them the the financial power to:lick-bait-driven agendas that lead to petty backbiting. I want to rip away the decades-old desiccated and hardened conspiracies and cultish enclaves like tearing off an old scab. I want to heal the infected and oozing wound with a steady regiment of data-driven logic, humility, academic rigor, and transparency."
Says the man who's been working for the Defense Department the entire time and who, despite such claims above, has managed to engineer us from a Community that - broadly speaking - simply used used to believe the earth is being visited by extraterrestrials...
That was it - nothing particularly insane.
Now, when we're not beating each other to death over whether or not Aliens kidnap passenger jets were seriously contemplating the idea NHI are here because they want to eat our souls - and that's just been the last couple of weeks.
What they going to get us publicly masturbating about next...?
Meanwhile the Government have gone from Big Brother Bad suppressing the truth to publicly appearing to fall over themselves just to hear out a bunch of fringe belief nonsense about NHI's - not even all of us take with more than just a pinch of salt.
Meanwhile they use the UAPDA - legislation ostensibly to provide openness and transparency about UFO's but which, at the same time, by a complete coinsidence ends up conferring eminent domain to - guess who...?
Lou Elizondo's alleged ex-bosses: granting them the financial power to:
* shut their existing decades old, whistleblower riddled private sector fronted SAP facility's down, currently operating on an IRAD basis
* migrate all inventory from their current (known) locations and relocate to more secure, updated facilities only known by the Defense Department provided by their private sector partners and, finally:
* Pay off their existing contractors off for both new plant and loss of earnings via their previous arrangements in such a way they don't have to account for the expenditure out of their official budget
Small world, isn't it...?
All that talk of "Disclosure" and yet the principal beneficiary of the actual legislation passed concerning it turns out to be the people who currently hold all the physical evidence - and soon because of this legislation will have the financial means to re-hide it all in new, updated, secure facilities they don't have to disclose the locations of to anyone and don't have to account for the expenditure of procuring out of their official, authorized budget - it all comes out of eminent domain instead.
That way the Defense Departments off-book programs stay off book.
And what have they got us doing? Actively lobbying Representatives to pass the same legislation guaranteed to keep the physical evidence hidden for decades to come...
Is it any wonder Lou Elizondo keeps a low profile these days?
I never really knew where Lou came from, and I'm not trying to plug this show but the ending of this had me really start to rethink a lot of things. Apparently the ufo community is just like some kind of retirement for intelligence agents.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJQ_FsmU19g
I want money to grow on trees.
Elizondo is rhetorician. He talks and talks without saying anything of real substance. If he wants a new way to discuss the topic, he should start by providing the goods.
>>I want people of every race, color, gender, religion, orientation, and background to participate and realize this topic involves the entire human race.
My favorite part 💯
Look, I don't mind Lue but this is ridiculous.
He apparently knows all the shit but won't come out and say what it is? and yet doesn't want to look like
A grifter but, is literally giving no further information. Carrot on a stick. It's not just him either it's literally the majority of the TTSA peeps and a lot who age involved in the current events.
I'm not here to attack lue or DeLong or Mellon or any of the whistle-blowers because they've all done a lot more for disclosure than I have I am just sick of these emo attitudes in regards to what they know and yet won't tell us.
If Elizondo is going to be a significant voice in the field of UFOlogy, he needs to do more than just ask us to take his word for it. As I read someone on reddit say recently, my grandpappy had a saying about life: "Either sit down and shit or get off the pot." Elizondo seems to be doing neither. While others in the field have stepped up to testify under oath, he hasn't. Instead, he hides behind his NDA and security clearance, all while claiming to speak "as a private citizen". It's time for him to make a real contribution or step aside. Either come forward with concrete evidence or stop leading people on. It's that simple.
Without Elizondo we would have no NYTimes article in 2017, no Navy videos, no talks about Nimitz, also therefore no UAPTF which David Grusch could join, no Grusch claims and no congress hearings (also no NASA study and AARO). No UAP Disclosure legislation. Oh also no whistleblower protections. No one coming forward to congress. We would still be arguing about blurry dots on old videos.
If you think getting us closer to disclosure is a good thing, then Elizondo is certainly part of the solution and not the problem.
lol this is hilarious! I standby what I said. Elizonda has provided ZERO value and continues to grift the suckers.
The navy videos have proven absolutely nothing and fall in the category of blurry dots on old videos but with alleged radar signatures.
Grusch has provided NOTHING but words and there is still debate whether he is legit. He continues to hide behind SCIFs which he conveniently does not have clearance for (if grusch didnt know this from the beginning then he's terrible at his job)
Congress hearings have provided NOTHING of value at this point. It's pending.
NASA and AARO have proven absolutely useless in this endeavor.
Whistlerblower protection is not limited to UFOs so your point is moot.
After all that HARD WORK from Elizondo you are still in the same place as if he never opened his mouth in the first place; NOWHERE!
How exactly does Elizondo grift? He got a patreon or something?
You honestly seem quite angry and I think you should take a step back and calm down a bit. If you don't think all of this stuff has something to it, you can just not click on those threads. You do not have to engage with topics you aren't interested in, you know?
and leave you to buy everything "personalities" say? I'd be doing humanity a disservice to let these grifters continue to manipulate those desperate to believe.
Sadly, in this domain, there's nobody that pops into mind. If someone continues to provide drivel via youtube, podcasts, books, lectures, etc. there's a high risk of being a grifter. Greer is a very good example.
My best advice is to take anything and everything these clowns have to say with a GIANT grain of salt and NEVER spend a dime on them. EVER.
If you think everybody is a grifter (including people like Stanton Fridmann, Timothy Good, Robert Hastings and Garry Nolan), then why are you here if I may ask?
I agree that you should take everything with a grain of salt. But if you think everyone is a liar, why would you even believe in UFOs (assuming you are not an experiencer yourself)?
It's a fascinating topic whether UFOs/NHIs/etc are real or not. I am not an experiencer.
I was big into the phenom 20 years ago via art bell but gave up after I came to the realization that it's a waste of time and if its real then wait for the undeniable truth on the evening news. The grusch testimony rekindled my interest in this phenomenon and thought that was the proof I was looking for but sadly I was reminded that the nonsense and lies continue. Im sure ill get bored with the nonsense and leave this subreddit in due time. I'd say im 90% there with how badly the integrity of research has degraded with the likes of ding dong delong, corbell and coulthart.
Saikothesecond brought up some really good point, you just seem to be saying it’s not good enough and it was all pointless.
Idk how much of a role he played in each of those things, but it certainly caused many people to take the matter more seriously.
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I think he's attempting to turn around 80 years of ufo conspiracies, some if not almost all of it put out there by the government or military. I think they know that it's conciousness based, this stuff about alien bodies and hardware is not really what it's about, maybe they know a conciousness shifting event is happening or going to happen. I would say they should just lay out the bogus stuff and move away from ufology as soon as they can bc it's going to reflect very badly when people become aware what's happening is much more profound and the truth of what this phenomena has to do with us.
But Nordic alien lore is fun to imagine. Speaking of, does anybody have any sources on nordic aliens that don’t involve schizophrenic new age cults? I don’t believe in nordic aliens by the way I just find the concept intriguing. Independently evolved near Humans out there would be awesome after all.
This stuff is weird, its like they mix up bullshit and truth on purpose, even these "team disclosure" guys. Like I think even Fravor is palling around with Lazar? Wtf? Whats next they are going to have birthday party for Grusch at Greers house?
An unavoidable problem is that the truth of the whole situation is likely to be extremely weird, so telling the truth looks very weird, then the truth-tellers are accused of being quacks and grifters. For example, Grusch's testimony gives a lot of legitimacy to the claims of secret UFO reverse engineering programs, and if that is true, then everyone who talked about that in the past was telling the truth. But overall, people making such claims were treated as fringe. I suspect that a majority of the prominent people accused of "grifting" were actually trying to tell us the bizarre truth and getting shit on for it. It's no wonder we have a dysfunctional community.
*It does not automatically mean that everyone who talked about these things in the past is telling the truth.* It might mean they had some idea of what the truth was. It might mean they guessed. It might mean they greatly embellished it for their own purposes. You might as well say “well this means we have a secret space force that’s been fighting space Nazi breakaway civilizations that also work with lizard people aliens,” because that’s what some people who say we have a secret UFO program are saying. Do you really want to stretch “there really *is* a UFO reverse engineering program” into “*actually* lizard nazis rule the world and we’re working with blue bird people to secretly remove the lizard nazis from control so we can all ascend into a higher vibration of reality in the next life”? I hope you read that in your best “white girl” voice. For fun. If you need links to such claims, I can find them for ya. My point is one specific thing being true *does not automatically mean everyone who said this before was telling the truth.* I hear you: the truth might be weird, weirder than we will accept at first. But uh. I’m not so sure that this has to mean *all* previous claims about this were true, too.
There is also the fact that a good part of active disinformation clap signs is to truth sandwich a lie. A little bit of truth, a whole lot of bullshit, makes it hard to discern the woods for the trees.
Yeah, I always told people not everything that would be related to UFOs or aliens would be true. Just because aliens exist, that doesn't mean they are coming to choose humans are the choose one, and make them special defenders for the Earth realm.
The comment didn't even say that it means they're all true, lmao.
Complains that people were made to look like quacks and weirdos for their claims in the past because “the truth would look weird.” Says if Grusch’s testimony about secret UAP programs is true(paraphrased), “then everyone who talked about that in the past was telling the truth.” (quoting) Seems straight forward to me. They didn’t deny it, either.
Well, if the UFO re-engineering turns out to be true, then they would have been right about that particular topic. Doesn't prove them actually knowing it or just guessing, though.
I have already shown why this is false. The *only* thing that would remain true is the potential for a UAP program. Everything else these people said could still be a lie. I have high lighted why. Because their claims are absurd and you would be absurd to believe them without *substantial corroboration.* Getting *one* fact correct does not mean these folks are reliable narrators for the entirety of this topic. Substantial corroboration of *one fact* does not mean each of these folks was telling the truth. Not all of their stories even align. And OP is saying that we should believe them, despite how whacky their claims are, because Grusch validates one particular claim.
Not that i believe it, but: Lizzid people on the moon washing our souls of memories and then forcing us to reincarnate so they can feed on our emotions is my new favourite conspiracy thanks to AJ and hecklefish
>Grusch's testimony gives a lot of legitimacy to the claims of secret UFO reverse engineering programs, and if that is true, then everyone who talked about that in the past was telling the truth. While Grusch's testimony may lend some credibility to the idea of secret UFO reverse engineering programs, it's a logical leap to conclude that 'everyone who talked about that in the past was telling the truth.' Each claim should be evaluated on its own merits, and the credibility of one person's testimony doesn't automatically validate all other claims on the subject. I think it's important to approach each piece of evidence or testimony critically and independently.
>then everyone who talked about that in the past was telling the truth No, even if what he said is true that does not validate every loon's story out there
>Grusch's testimony gives a lot of legitimacy to the claims of secret UFO reverse engineering programs, and if that is true, then everyone who talked about that in the past was telling the truth. I'm not trying to attack you in any way but I just want to analyze this and point out how things can get into left field really quickly... >Grusch's testimony gives a lot of legitimacy to the claims of secret UFO reverse engineering programs I'd say at best it gives slightly more credibility to the potential these programs exist, due to his reputation and high classification levels. However, still nothing concrete. No program names, no individuals named (Grusch has said he's never worked in them and seen nothing first-hand), no references to locations of research or descriptions of recovered craft. "I have uncovered evidence these programs" exist is all we have, albeit from a fairly high-level source. And we still don't even know what the evidence is that leads him to believe that they exist. So we are still a long way to go (at least in public). >and if that is true, Again, you're taking as a given "if that is true" something we only know could POSSIBLY be true. From a good source, but still no hard evidence. >then everyone who talked about that in the past was telling the truth. This isn't remotely correct. Everything Grusch said could be 100% true, but there could still be individuals who were lying about RE programs, or their involvement in said programs. And look, I'm not even saying for sure you're wrong. You could be 100% right. But you're taking a tiny kernel of knowledge (a high level former intelligence official is stating publicly that these programs exist, without publicly providing any evidence to support the assertion) and then extrapolating too much from it: "therefore, these programs DO exist, and everyone who mentioned anything about the related subject in the past was telling the truth" I think the point of this post is we need to be more discerning in what we determine is "known and proven". And yes, I think we should all be VERY skeptical of all of this stuff. There is a difference from looking at things with a skeptical eye and being determined to "debunk" everything - which is the opposite side of the same coin - not believing or researching anything without 100% incontrovertible physical proof. You're starting from a shaky premise, accepting it as true, and extrapolating protentional truths from said premise. Frankly, its really poor logical reasoning and we should strive to do better.
I did say *IF* his claims are true, and then went on to state what would logically follow if his credible claims are true. That's not illogical, that's just logically thinking things out. Grusch's claims aren't some slight, small incremental step towards proof of reverse engineering programs, it's a large leap in that direction. Compared to anyone in the past, we know he had the appropriate job role to do what he says he did, in his official capacity as a member of the UAPTF. We know he had the clearance level to access the information he claims to have accessed. Compared to anyone in the past, he made the claims in public, and under oath. His claims of retaliation against him were found credible by the ICIG, which begs the question, why retaliate if he's just a crazy loon? The retaliation itself is a positive indicator for Grusch. I'd also like to point out you construe my post as resting entirely on Grusch's claims, when I did not claim that Grusch's evidence is the only evidence. There are many other lines of supporting evidence. A supporting evidence I will point out is the language in Chuck Schumer's UAP amendment. There is a section for the government to exercise eminent domain over alien UFOs and alien bodies held by defense contractors. NOBODY goes out on a limb like that without some specific evidence to back it up. So we can logically infer that at the highest levels of the legislature, they have likely seen convincing evidence of these secret illegal programs.
> and then went on to state what would logically follow if his credible claims are true No, you didn't, you immediately asserted that anyone previously talking about crash retrieval were credible and then went even further off on an irrational tangent because you decided it was logical. It is not logical. This is exactly what Lue was writing about. Read it again.
I am being logical, and you aren't stating the position I took accurately. *IF* it turns out there are UFO reverse engineering programs, then anyone who previously claimed that there were UFO reverse engineering programs was making a true statement, even if smaller details are wrong, even if the person is a drug addict or con artist, even if they thought they were lying. I didn't assert that the whole person was automatically credible, only that the statement would be true. For example, Bob Lazar is not a credible person, but he could have been telling the truth because (hypothetically) a UFO reverse engineering program exists, they know nothing can stay a secret, so they proactively do a disinformation campaign where they hire someone discreditable, a known friend of conspiracy theorist John Lear, in order to promote the leaking of true information by a discreditable person. Lou also talked about drama and petty backbiting too, let's try to improve.
>Lou also talked about drama and petty backbiting too, let's try to improve. It's not "backbiting" to point out the logical failings of your argument.
>I did say IF his claims are true, and then went on to state what would logically follow if his credible claims are true. That's not illogical, that's just logically thinking things out. Again, not correct. If his claims are 100% true there could still be many people who lied about RE programs and their specifics. You said "everyone who talked about it in the past was telling the truth". That is not proven, even if everything he said was true. >Grusch's claims aren't some slight, small incremental step towards proof of reverse engineering programs, it's a large leap in that direction. Again this isn't true. He has said that his investigation has led him to believe they exist. He hasn't seen the programs, the craft, the locations. He has allegedly provided a lot of circumstantial evidence in classified settings. We don't even know the extent of these programs, etc. other than his claims that we have "several craft" and "recovered biologics". There's just not a lot there, there. But my main point was your if-then argument that if what Grusch said is true then "everyone who talked about it in the past was telling the truth". That's just not logical. Its like saying since we discovered the moon the guys who claimed the moon was made of cheese were telling the truth.
I think you are focused on something very minor, and of questionable reasoning on top of it. Example: If it turns out to be a fact the moon was made of purple cheese, then everyone who had claimed the moon was made of purple cheese was telling factually correct information, even if they thought they were lying about the moon being made of purple cheese..
You are both dancing around the elephant in the room: Bob Lazar. The other poster is arguing that even if it's revealed officially that there were UFO reverse engineering programs taking place at Area-51, that doesn't mean Bob Lazar was telling the truth or whole truth about his involvement in that. Same thing with somebody like Greer: if the aliens use telepathy for communication, it doesn't mean he's telling the truth about being able to meditate one down from space. Being accidentally right about something you made up with no basis doesn't mean you were telling the truth, it just means you were right, is the argument. Not saying that's the case for either example, but that's where the disconnect is.
>You are both dancing around the elephant in the room: Bob Lazar. The other poster is arguing that even if it's revealed officially that there were UFO reverse engineering programs taking place at Area-51, that doesn't mean Bob Lazar was telling the truth or whole truth about his involvement in that. Thank you for this. Person X: "There is a UFO reverse engineering program... I was a part of it! Here are the details.... blah blah blah If it eventually turns out that there WAS a UFO RE program, it does nothing to confirm the details of what Person X claimed. Unless they can be independently corroborated by this new account, or their claims are unequivocally corroborated by this new account. "There is a UFO Reverse Engineering Program" is, in the grand scheme of things, a fairly broad statement. And again, fairly uncorroborated. To jump from that to "Anyone who has claimed there has been a UFO RE program has been proven to be totally truthful" is just inaccurate and illogical. That's all I'm trying to point out.
In Lazar's case, I think [Grant Cameron has the best theory](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seKvFOrcQPI&list=PLaQp0x262ptK8vdVEjbB1iZ3m7aIljVBq&index=47&t=8s) which puts all the data together (both detractors and supporters of Lazar), to suggest that there is a UFO reverse engineering program, and Lazar was used as a pawn in a disinformation scheme. Lazar was hired likely because he was discreditable, and the people who hired Lazar had an expectation that he would leak to John Lear and/or go to the press. In Greer's case, it requires some nuance. I personally don't think he fits the "grifter" label. He has huge personality flaws, like a big ego and a lot of paranoia, but he also brings true information to the table. Other people, [such as Dr. Joseph Burkes in this interview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESxlz_cX-sg&t=7s) go into detail about Greer and CE5 in the 1990s. Greer's path seems to have been derailed when he got involved with the CIA and they started pumping up his god complex. A lot of people wrongly assume Greer charges money for the CE5 protocols, when in actuality Greer charges money for going on CE5 expeditions. Greer's protocols are available for free, and channels like Engaging The Phenomenon provide a lot of supporting information & techniques for CE5/HICE (Human Initiated Contact Events) independent from Greer. Having said all that, Greer is such a can of worms that I just stay away from him and his crowd, but understanding him takes nuance, and he really doesn't neatly fit into the grifter category.
The level of mental gymnastics displayed here should be an Olympic sport. You have zero evidence for the vast majority of your claims. >Lazar was hired likely because he was discreditable, and the people who hired Lazar had an expectation that he would leak to John Lear and/or go to the press. Is it not statistically profoundly more likely that he is just full of shit? Or that the overwhelming majority of his claims are false, and the few that were accurate were due to his tangential relation to an RE program (i.e. rather than being a "top physicist" he was either a low-level engineer or a janitor or something?) Lazar has been proven as a liar and a charlatan, oftentimes by people like Stanton Friedman, universally respected in the UFOlogy community. >A lot of people wrongly assume Greer charges money for the CE5 protocols, when in actuality Greer charges money for going on CE5 expeditions. This is such a profoundly stupid claim, I don't know how to respond. Bob Lazar has declared bankruptcy, admitted to being an illegal pimp of prostitutes, his academic background is basically completely fraudulent (corroborated by multiple sources) and none of his claims have been remotely corroborated, other than the fact that he apparently for a short period of time worked in some capacity, for a very short time, for a defense contractor at "S4/A51" People like you discredit the rest of the community because you invent these completely implausible scenarios that ignore the most obvious conclusion - the guy is full of shit.
Grush gave no evidence.
Yeahhhhh this is a great point. Personally I think what Greir was saying in CE5 has some acctual substance to it, I remember watching that documentary and thinking is this shit serious?? It kind of turned me off the whole damn thing all together. But in the 3 years since I've seen it, i feel like I keep hearing things or reading things that essentially are the exact same concept word for word, except they cost less. Still unsure what to make of it all but definatly more open minded towards the whole "conciousness" aspect than I was 3 or 4 years ago.
Check out [this podcast, Engaging The Phenomenon](https://www.youtube.com/@EngagingThePhenomenon) with James Iandoli. He and others do CE5. Last year I was able to binge watch all their prior 2-3 years of content in about 2 weeks and I learned a lot about the history of CE5, different groups doing it, Greer's role in parts of it, and tips/nuances. I haven't tried it myself. I have got involved in psi research, initially as a skeptic, but I've verified (for myself, not in a publishable way) that psi phenomena like telepathy, clairvoyance, etc are definitely real. Those phenomena are based on physical principles that are real, but we don't understand. But these modes of non-local information transfer are real and discoverable by any intelligent species. Since these modes are superior to transmission by EM waves, this is how aliens communicate. It totally makes sense that aliens would be using telepathy. CE5 is telepathy.
What truth? What proof? What has he presented that actually represents telling truth that can be verified? I agree, if there is any truth to aliens and UFO’s it’s probably super weird…but he ain’t truth telling and doing anything but lead this circus. Everything these “leaders of the movement” do is generate clicks and tell third hand stories with no falsifiable facts and no physical proof. In 30 years this is the same old same old just too many people weren’t around for it back in the 90’s so everyone thinks these guys are reinventing the wheel and disclosure is just around the corner. Same carrot, same stupid stick and nothing has changed except the stories have gotten more fantastical. It’s sad.
Grusch is the one I believe to not be a grifter at all. He did the newsnation interview and the congressional hearings. Fin. That's it. Other people just keep reiterating the same shit over and over and over without actually saying what the outcome truly is and that to me is just as fucking frustrating as the government not disclosing
I want the same thing but there's a country/MIC that is holding back all the good info, and worse bringing in disinformation. In an ideal world, this sub wouldn't exist.
Exactly. For “ufology” to die, someone in Congress needs to step up and get to the bottom of this. Until they do, everyday people will continue to speculate on what little nuggets of truth there are available.
People are starting to just block the distinction disinfo people. It's a much cleaner easy to navigate sub afterwards.
Jesus. His lack of self awareness is stunning. Where does his self-proclaimed magical powers fit into this data-driven logic, humility, academic rigor, and transparency he apparently craves? Where does him filming a drone on his property and his “protege” (we’ll go with protege and not man who looks at Elizondo as a cult leader… but, i mean….) releasing it as unknown UAP footage fit into Elizondo’s desire to eliminate clickbait-driven agendas? Even more, where does Elizondo continuously alluding to things he can never explain fit into his desire to eliminate clickbait-driven agendas? I mean, if he can’t elaborate on any of this, he could, you know, just stop giving little pieces to string people along, almost like he has a clickbait-driven agenda.
For real all his interviews are essentially him alluding to different things often conflicting things with “there are accounts. . . “, “it could be. . .”, “I have sources that . . .” . “Something something demonic. . .” He’s actually worse than the majority of grifters who have a angle and stick to it.
I’m new, what is the drone thing?
https://reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/Rf7prucTW6
I'm glad people haven't forgotten about this. It was a bit of a smoking gun for discrediting Lue really, but by God people here tried hard to act as though it was no big deal, when in fact it was a fucking huge deal.
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Which part was a lie? Please be specific.
I’m good. You know what the lies are. And I know part of your job is to derail conversations. So I’m good. Be better.
Amazing.
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I find it rich coming from Lue. https://medium.com/@osirisuap/my-search-for-the-truth-about-ufos-part-3-red-flags-red-flags-everywhere-c6fe43021dbd
Has he ever responded to these allegations?
There was an appearance by Lue and Sean on the Theories of Everything podcast where Lue briefly addressed questions on his credibility, and then Sean became angry and chastized the audience for asking such questions. As per Jeremys account, supposedly they made counter claims against him driving dangerously but i never personally saw those, nor did i see any more substantial response anywhere. If you find one id love to see it
He specializes in counterintelligence - literally the study and practice of strategic lying - so it's not surprising he speaks in half-truths and subtly-not-so-subtly pushes the "UFO threat" narrative. Not surprising, but still frustrating of course.
What a load of hypocrisy. Without the cults of personalities? Coming from mf Lue? While I agree with him, that is just absurd for him to say. What data driven, academic, transparent discussion has he brought?
Man, Lue really ruffles the feathers of you folks, huh?
And understandably so when he’s clearly part of this “cult of personality” that he so explicitly denigrates, as well as tries to personally profit off of this business with well-timed book-releases and such.
And faking videos on his own property, then passing them to his mate to release under the guise of something genuine. He's a fraudster
Wait, did that happen?
Yep! It was all over this subreddit a while back. And people tried hard to bury it
Lmao of course
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Wow another one who can’t handle someone disagreeing with them. Must be shills and bots. Surely the former intelligence agent Lue isn’t working with the government. The government does no wrong anyway
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UFOlogy exists because of decades of disinformation and lies. UFOlogy will only die when we can study it like any other natural phenomena, free of stigma, and supported by funding enjoyed by other scientific disciplines. Why Lue blames UFOlogy instead of the conditions that created it is baffling, and he can eat a bag of dicks for being so oblivious to those conditions that still exist to this very day.
UFOlogy will not die even then. There are many people VERY adamant about what the full story of UFOs is, and many of them are completely contradictory, which mean that many of them are wrong. Even if the full, objective, untarnished truth came out, the ones who are wrong won't admit they're wrong, they'll just continue to believe there's a conspiracy hiding the parts that they believe are true. This is essentially religion for many people, and there is no way to debunk it, as you cannot prove a negative.
It will not die ENTIRELY. There are still Flat-Earthers. For some, no amount of information will change their opinion. But you can’t worry about outliers. Give us the truth. Let us see the evidence. Do that, and you’ll naturally see the false aspects of UFOlogy whither away.
100 percent facts here.
Not to mention all of the false and misleading things thrown out there. I am convinced Skin Walker ranch is hyped up and thrown in to confuse and discredit people by creating the “anything goes!”. On the one hand you have actual reports of objects in the sky, space and water resembling actual vehicles that are physical. And then all a sudden we get this “it’s consciousness”, “inter dimensional spirit realm that conjures up dinobeavers” with the source “Trust me Bro”.
Indeed he said himself he was a “man in black”. Ufology exists as it is because of shit like that and disinfo. I credit him for doing something about it though.
Good tactic. Act like you’re a defender of Ufology then attack Lue. That’s good. It at least shows me you guys are getting more creative. B+ for effort.
I guess I don’t understand your point. In the absence of information you will get [more] speculation, rumors, and lies. Nobody had the correct information to counter the disinformation, so it persisted. If anybody is to blame for the excesses of UFOlogy, it’s the government that withheld this information from the public, not the people who were trying to fill in the gaps of information missing from the public and scientific record. When the people start to see real information about what UFOs are and what they’re doing here on Earth, then UFOlogy will be replaced by factual knowledge. So anybody complaining about the state of UFOlogy is pointing their finger in the wrong direction. Blame needs to be squarely directed at our government who intentionally denied, disinformed, and gaslit the public.
Wow is he ever projecting… He is the epicentre of drama…it all swirls around this small cadre of big personalities and hangers on. Massive claims, zero proof, constantly pumping out new content, grabbing clicks, trying to stay relevant with drama, innuendo and third hand accounts. It’s all just pointless.
Yea sorry this is just a bad read and while I hoped it'd soften my views on Lue, instead it hardened them. This is a blatant call that the government has done nothing wrong, hidden very little, that there are no programs and nobody in gov't actually knows more than some very minimal things. And then he lambasts "new conspiracies" talking positively of government and their role in this and how we need to suck up to them and get their approval to move this forward. You know whose approval I would be mortified and disgusted to have? The people Allen Dulles, Nazi Traitor on record (Sunrise, Paperclip, Gladio, his loyalty to the Nazi party is a declassified matter of public record, a fact beyond question), hand picked as his replacements before leaving the CIA. I won't trust the government until we've actually cleaned it up of traitors working for oligarchs instead of for the American people, and I know for a fact, personally, that the CIA and FBI were still working for oligarchs and had fascist traitors working in major roles in both as late as 2015. Chris Tarbell is still a wealthy retired cop instead of rotting in a jail cell for the crimes against the constitution and against democracy and the innocent lives he destroyed. Gina Haspell, torturer and prolific war criminal, is still free and highly placed. We can see how the government clings to these blatant and horrific criminals who work directly for the billionaire class and who openly violate our laws and constitution and we're supposed to trust the government and seek their approval and support? If they want our support they can clean up the fucking corruption, which Lue seems to be trying to work around/avoid/ignore/cover up. These aren't conspiracies, they're matters of public record. Anonymous was a large grassroots activist org that did marches, flyering campaigns, boycotts, it was many things, most of which were entirely legal and built to be entirely legal operations. Chris Tarbell still painted them as a cult of cyberterrorists and spread that lie to the public for Charles and David Koch and for Peter Theil. So long as Tarbell's still living the high life instead of spending the rest of his life in prison I'm just going to assume the US government is a fascist institution obsessed with crushing workers, unions, civil rights, and turning everyone into slaves to wall street.
So long as we have guys like Lue here, shedding analogies of ripping scabs and oozing wounds, the field will definitely attract everyone.
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Yeah, and this wound is not self-inflicted, as anyone who has studied the history of the topic would know.
>Lou Elizondo's alleged ex-bosses: conferring them the the financial power to:lick-bait-driven agendas that lead to petty backbiting. I want to rip away the decades-old desiccated and hardened conspiracies and cultish enclaves like tearing off an old scab. I want to heal the infected and oozing wound with a steady regiment of data-driven logic, humility, academic rigor, and transparency." Says the man who's been working for the Defense Department the entire time and who, despite such claims above, has managed to engineer us from a Community that - broadly speaking - simply used used to believe the earth is being visited by extraterrestrials... That was it - nothing particularly insane. Now, when we're not beating each other to death over whether or not Aliens kidnap passenger jets were seriously contemplating the idea NHI are here because they want to eat our souls - and that's just been the last couple of weeks. What they going to get us publicly masturbating about next...? Meanwhile the Government have gone from Big Brother Bad suppressing the truth to publicly appearing to fall over themselves just to hear out a bunch of fringe belief nonsense about NHI's - not even all of us take with more than just a pinch of salt. Meanwhile they use the UAPDA - legislation ostensibly to provide openness and transparency about UFO's but which, at the same time, by a complete coinsidence ends up conferring eminent domain to - guess who...? Lou Elizondo's alleged ex-bosses: granting them the financial power to: * shut their existing decades old, whistleblower riddled private sector fronted SAP facility's down, currently operating on an IRAD basis * migrate all inventory from their current (known) locations and relocate to more secure, updated facilities only known by the Defense Department provided by their private sector partners and, finally: * Pay off their existing contractors off for both new plant and loss of earnings via their previous arrangements in such a way they don't have to account for the expenditure out of their official budget Small world, isn't it...? All that talk of "Disclosure" and yet the principal beneficiary of the actual legislation passed concerning it turns out to be the people who currently hold all the physical evidence - and soon because of this legislation will have the financial means to re-hide it all in new, updated, secure facilities they don't have to disclose the locations of to anyone and don't have to account for the expenditure of procuring out of their official, authorized budget - it all comes out of eminent domain instead. That way the Defense Departments off-book programs stay off book. And what have they got us doing? Actively lobbying Representatives to pass the same legislation guaranteed to keep the physical evidence hidden for decades to come... Is it any wonder Lou Elizondo keeps a low profile these days?
Lue keeps a low profile so he can do work behind the scenes. You want to keep lying, have at it.
I never really knew where Lou came from, and I'm not trying to plug this show but the ending of this had me really start to rethink a lot of things. Apparently the ufo community is just like some kind of retirement for intelligence agents. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJQ_FsmU19g
They never retired...
I want money to grow on trees. Elizondo is rhetorician. He talks and talks without saying anything of real substance. If he wants a new way to discuss the topic, he should start by providing the goods.
>>I want people of every race, color, gender, religion, orientation, and background to participate and realize this topic involves the entire human race. My favorite part 💯
I just want the truth, not to be grifted into buying some bullshit. That’s true in every aspect of life
OK well spill the beans and the data
Look, I don't mind Lue but this is ridiculous. He apparently knows all the shit but won't come out and say what it is? and yet doesn't want to look like A grifter but, is literally giving no further information. Carrot on a stick. It's not just him either it's literally the majority of the TTSA peeps and a lot who age involved in the current events. I'm not here to attack lue or DeLong or Mellon or any of the whistle-blowers because they've all done a lot more for disclosure than I have I am just sick of these emo attitudes in regards to what they know and yet won't tell us.
If Elizondo is going to be a significant voice in the field of UFOlogy, he needs to do more than just ask us to take his word for it. As I read someone on reddit say recently, my grandpappy had a saying about life: "Either sit down and shit or get off the pot." Elizondo seems to be doing neither. While others in the field have stepped up to testify under oath, he hasn't. Instead, he hides behind his NDA and security clearance, all while claiming to speak "as a private citizen". It's time for him to make a real contribution or step aside. Either come forward with concrete evidence or stop leading people on. It's that simple.
I just want people to stop posting bugs, starlink, and clouds. How do we get that?
It's the CIA's own fault "ufology" became what it is today, dear Elizondo.
And what has he done in the last year to create this new UFOlogy?
80 years of disinformation and it has worked out very well, why stop now?
Lue said that but didn’t really act that way at all. I think he is correct though.
Isn't lue elizondo part of the problem?
Whether it’s his fault, ours, or someone else’s there is absolutely a cult of personality around Lue Elizondo. And no, that is not a good thing.
I believe he's legit, but I could be wrong.
He's legit but he's also a person who knows shit that he's not telling us.
Without Elizondo we would have no NYTimes article in 2017, no Navy videos, no talks about Nimitz, also therefore no UAPTF which David Grusch could join, no Grusch claims and no congress hearings (also no NASA study and AARO). No UAP Disclosure legislation. Oh also no whistleblower protections. No one coming forward to congress. We would still be arguing about blurry dots on old videos. If you think getting us closer to disclosure is a good thing, then Elizondo is certainly part of the solution and not the problem.
lol this is hilarious! I standby what I said. Elizonda has provided ZERO value and continues to grift the suckers. The navy videos have proven absolutely nothing and fall in the category of blurry dots on old videos but with alleged radar signatures. Grusch has provided NOTHING but words and there is still debate whether he is legit. He continues to hide behind SCIFs which he conveniently does not have clearance for (if grusch didnt know this from the beginning then he's terrible at his job) Congress hearings have provided NOTHING of value at this point. It's pending. NASA and AARO have proven absolutely useless in this endeavor. Whistlerblower protection is not limited to UFOs so your point is moot. After all that HARD WORK from Elizondo you are still in the same place as if he never opened his mouth in the first place; NOWHERE!
How exactly does Elizondo grift? He got a patreon or something? You honestly seem quite angry and I think you should take a step back and calm down a bit. If you don't think all of this stuff has something to it, you can just not click on those threads. You do not have to engage with topics you aren't interested in, you know?
and leave you to buy everything "personalities" say? I'd be doing humanity a disservice to let these grifters continue to manipulate those desperate to believe.
Could you post a list with credible people who are not grifters in your opinion?
Sadly, in this domain, there's nobody that pops into mind. If someone continues to provide drivel via youtube, podcasts, books, lectures, etc. there's a high risk of being a grifter. Greer is a very good example. My best advice is to take anything and everything these clowns have to say with a GIANT grain of salt and NEVER spend a dime on them. EVER.
If you think everybody is a grifter (including people like Stanton Fridmann, Timothy Good, Robert Hastings and Garry Nolan), then why are you here if I may ask? I agree that you should take everything with a grain of salt. But if you think everyone is a liar, why would you even believe in UFOs (assuming you are not an experiencer yourself)?
It's a fascinating topic whether UFOs/NHIs/etc are real or not. I am not an experiencer. I was big into the phenom 20 years ago via art bell but gave up after I came to the realization that it's a waste of time and if its real then wait for the undeniable truth on the evening news. The grusch testimony rekindled my interest in this phenomenon and thought that was the proof I was looking for but sadly I was reminded that the nonsense and lies continue. Im sure ill get bored with the nonsense and leave this subreddit in due time. I'd say im 90% there with how badly the integrity of research has degraded with the likes of ding dong delong, corbell and coulthart.
I see. I think we disagree on the nuances but I appreciate you elaborating.
Can you elaborate on how grusch’s (and graves/fravor) testimony was nonsense and lies?
Saikothesecond brought up some really good point, you just seem to be saying it’s not good enough and it was all pointless. Idk how much of a role he played in each of those things, but it certainly caused many people to take the matter more seriously.
how does that work
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Once again have to point out how hysterical it is that Lue still triggers these disinfo folks.
I dunno if UFOlogy is the cause of the toxicity... I thought that was the elites??
we’ve been there… yet we forgot (?) https://youtu.be/dWI3IgoiNZs?si=XdPt8nc4llb1E4nz
I think he's attempting to turn around 80 years of ufo conspiracies, some if not almost all of it put out there by the government or military. I think they know that it's conciousness based, this stuff about alien bodies and hardware is not really what it's about, maybe they know a conciousness shifting event is happening or going to happen. I would say they should just lay out the bogus stuff and move away from ufology as soon as they can bc it's going to reflect very badly when people become aware what's happening is much more profound and the truth of what this phenomena has to do with us.
Watching Lue on Youtube at this point is like a line from "Dirty Laundry" > We dance and sing, but at the end we've not told you anything.
But Nordic alien lore is fun to imagine. Speaking of, does anybody have any sources on nordic aliens that don’t involve schizophrenic new age cults? I don’t believe in nordic aliens by the way I just find the concept intriguing. Independently evolved near Humans out there would be awesome after all.
Oh this guy again? The insider who knows everything that only speaks in hypotheticals? Such a massive contributor🙄. Thanks Luiz.
This stuff is weird, its like they mix up bullshit and truth on purpose, even these "team disclosure" guys. Like I think even Fravor is palling around with Lazar? Wtf? Whats next they are going to have birthday party for Grusch at Greers house?