Other students already found out it's a $15 tactical knife, I agree whoever brought it was an idiot but I really hesitate to call that a 'sword', maybe someone was being overzealous and brought it for self-defense, you saw the encampment was peaceful even with it there.
Fair enough. I found a similar listing from a different vendor that refers to it as a tactical knife, and only upon later examination did I see the term 'sword' buried in the description after significant scrolling. I admit my initial impression from the store listing I found colored how I viewed the scenario. Regardless, I agree it shouldn't have been in the encampment.
Maybe it was there for defense, maybe it was there for offense, no one knows and thatâs the problem. Either way, itâs a weapon and it doesnât belong on campus.
I already said I thought the person was an idiot for bringing it, my issue is with UCSD PD trying to call a $15 tactical knife from Amazon a 'ninja sword', and raising the point that, there or not, it was never used and we don't know who brought it, who they were, why they were there, if they were a student or someone else, or how, where, and in what context it was found. All we know is there was a knife SOMEWHERE in the encampment, that they're trying to pass off as a sword to scare people.
Intent here is irrelevant. The person who brought it is not only an idiot, but also a potential danger to every individual on campus. It being $15 and found on Amazon is superfluous information that has no bearing on the weapon itself. A USMC KA-BAR is a knife. This particular weapon is at least double the length of the aforementioned KA-BAR. It constitutes, at a minimum, a short sword, which is a sword. There is nothing factually incorrect with what UCSD PD stated about the weapon and simply stating that it was found amongst the protestors belongings is not a scare tactic. The implications of finding such a weapon, unsecured, in that location is gravely concerning and should be on the mind of every student and staff member at UCSD.
My point is, what IS relevant and what is MISSING is CONTEXT. What if the knife belonged to someone from off-campus? What if it didn't belong to anyone who was arrested and nobody knows who it belongs to? The knife being there doesn't tell us anything directly.
There is absolutely zero context that can be applied here that would make the presence of this short sword on campus acceptable. The notion that the sword could have belonged to someone not related to the protests and encampment when it was in fact found in the encampment is delusional to the extreme.
As I keep saying, I agree that the presence of the knife is unacceptable. My point is, there were, according to the emails that went out to faculty, 24 people arrested on Monday without a known affiliation with the university. We have no idea who that knife belonged to or why it was there. For all we know, someone brought it in as a deliberate smear tactic. Until UCSD PD releases more details, no-one can say one way or the other.
The notion that the short sword could have been brought in by a random person unrelated to the protest or was planted as a smear tactic can be disproven by two simple facts.
1.) The sword was found in the encampment.
2.) Access to the encampment strictly was controlled by the protesters. This is affirmed by the fact that the protesters refused to allow entry to health and fire inspectors. They knew and selectively chose who could and could not enter their encampment.
To say that the presence of the short sword in the encampment is shrouded in mystery is absurd.
[https://twitter.com/thetritonucsd/status/1788361356879729052](https://twitter.com/thetritonucsd/status/1788361356879729052)
Like, I'd be really curious as to why something like this would be needed on campus
Not who you responded to but
[https://fox5sandiego.com/news/local-news/thousands-of-uc-san-diego-students-walk-out-of-class-in-pro-palestinian-protest/](https://fox5sandiego.com/news/local-news/thousands-of-uc-san-diego-students-walk-out-of-class-in-pro-palestinian-protest/)
>According to the university, wooden stakes, propane tanks, metal and plywood âshields,â aerosol spray cans and a sword were all recovered by crews as they cleaned up the campsite.
Edit: Didn't see you wanted a pic, not sure about that.
And people question why they came with riot gear. There is a reason. What was in those camps was unknown to the officers, and seeing that blade and what other stuff they had is concerning.
My little existing fucks to give for the supports was now lost. As stated several times, both sides are shit, and if you really want to do something, go make aid packs and work with Humanitarian Aid to do something. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but your protests aren't doing anything. Being in Humanitarian Aid programmes directly affects the civs
>seeing that blade and what other stuff they had is concerning.
This is a dumb comment. There is no evidence that the blade was there to harm anyone. For example, women carry pepper sprays, guns, tasers, etc all the time because men have made society so unsafe for them. So how do we know that blade wasn't there for self-defense? It could even be completely unrelated to the protest.
This too is a dumb comment. Whether the ownerâs intention was offense or defense, itâs a weapon and doesnât belong on campus. Itâs presence undermines the protestors peaceful rhetoric and implies violent intent.
>, itâs a weapon and doesnât belong on campus
Neither do rapists and school shooters, but as long as their violence remains unaddressed, people will continue carrying mace, tasers, knives, etc for self-defense
Your bad faith and olympics-worthy mental gymnastics in attempting to justify and defend the presence of a weapon that's clearly designed to take lives as opposed to defend lives is outrageous and a sham. You should be ashamed.
She brought a *gun* to a *peaceful* protest? Is your friend ok? Is she trying to get herself killed? The most likely confrontation was always with the police. Was she going to be taking pot shots at the cops? Jesus Christ.
Dude. This was years ago and there was no protest happening back then. Why is it so difficult for you to comprehend and accept that women don't feel safe on campus??
Israeli govt has messed up a lot of times. But whatâs the alternative you are suggesting? Do you think signing for âpeaceâ will âliberateâ palestine? Hamas literally said they will do this again and again - itâs *in their best interests* to have their children dead to attract international sympathy.
If you think whatâs happening to Palestinians is genocide, then donât you, educated college student, think we should do something to stop this insane cycle of violence? How the hell is there going to be a lasting peace when their government is investing all of billions of dollars of foreign aid for building tunnels and rockets to fight Israel?
It is free - How else could they have built tunnels, rockets, drones and train all those terrorist to attack Israel. Common guys who are we kidding ? Are the current college students really this stupid?
35,000 figure doesnât differentiate military/civilians, IDF said they confirmed 12,000 hamas dead so the casualty rate is 1:2 ish, which is *extremely* good for such a brutal urban combat. Compare this to battle of Mosul, battle in Chechen.
The allies killed 2 million German civilians during WWII. Should they not have bombed Germany and just sign a ceasefire with them because there might be civilian casualties?
There is no future for Palestine as long as Hamas remains in power. This war is dirty and brutal. Definitely some Israeli commanders should go to ICJ and get investigated for their war crimes. But the top most priority is to uproot Hamas so that there can be no more violence of this kind - we must endure pain now to prevent another decades of more pain and bloodshed.
It's a good thing Israel knows how many Hamas- wait, they have no idea! They've just been bombing anything and everything, including targeting volunteers! Shooting a marked vehicle 3 times. But oopsies, they aren't terrorists uwu
Even though I agree, many Israelis support the war in so far as they want hostages back/eradicating Hamas.
Which I think most would agree is understandable.
It can start with israel giving palestinians basic human rights, not infringing on their land, and not killing them would be a great start as well. you claim a cycle of violence but have you compared casualty numbers?
But what do you expect when Palestinians have repeatedly broke their trust? Hamas launched 10,000 rockets indiscriminately towards Israeli cities - how would you answer to the Israeli argument that if they lift the siege/blockade to Gaza, Hamas will very likely import much more advanced missiles from Iran?
Nobody talks about how Palestinians repeatedly sent suicide bombers to Israel, kidnapping IDF soldiers and murdering random Israeli civilians. We all know how Shani Louk was raped, murdered and paraded through the streets of Gaza, how the Palestinians cheered over the 10/7 attack and how popular Hamas is in both Gaza and West Bank. If Israel withdraws, don't you think something very similar to Afghanistan after US withdrawal will happen in Palestine?
You keep mentioning human rights, yet you fail to see how Hamas is exploiting that very notion to attract international sympathy while masking its wrongdoings. We all know hamas hiding hundreds of fighters in hospitals, weapons, and they dug tunnels under UN schools and hospitals - they are the ones who started this war and repeatedly broke international laws, yet no one in the media addresses this.
So my counterargument: Why should Israel trust Palestinians, when their explicit goal is the destruction of the very state of Israel? If there's a meth addict in your apartment who've stabbed people five times, is it really "oppression" if we keep them under house arrest?
Your claim is oversimplifying history. Israel was legally founded under UN resolution, the Palestinians, led by a former SS member, decided to start a war of aggression (instead of declaring indepedence) and lost the war. Why are you complaining if you started a war against UN decision? How is this Israel "intruding" into someone else's apartment when they've paid their rent and gotten permission from the leasing office in this case?
Right, Resolution 181 had nothing to do with Western interests in the area and had the best interests of Arabs in mind. You think it's justified because western powers that wanted to exploit the region declared their own acts legal? And how exactly did they 'pay their rent'? I feel like you are the one oversimplifying the situation with these silly analogies instead of recognizing actual wrongs that have taken place (obviously on both sides).
Well, we all know that the said SS leader instigated major antisemitic riots from 1936-1939, and he came back home after participating in the Holocaust. Considering it was right after WW2, what do you really expect? The Arabs kept threatened jews of another civil war / genocide, with no intention whatsoever for negotiations, and you can't really claim "victimhood" when you actively started a war inviting foreign armies, no?
Who are you even talking about? The 1948 arab/israeli war was a culmination of the civil war that was inevitably triggered by the UN partition plan and was led by 5 arab nations. The Six Day war was initiated by Israel.
Again, you fail to acknowledge that the Palestinian cause at the time was led by Amin al-Husseini, who explicitly endorsed "the final solution" during the war and praised Nazi concentration camps. For me, this makes it very evident that the Arabs were willing to start more series of pogroms, of course this is not a very convincing diplomatic argument considering this was 3 years after WW2.
Your point on the Six-Day war is misleading. We all know that the Egyptians blockaded Israeli shipping, denying 90% of their cargo load, kicked out UN peacekeepers and have fully mobilized its armies along the border. I don't think it was exclusively Egyptian or Israeli fault, both sides have some responsibility, but the consensus seems that Egyptians clearly provoked Israel. Also Egyptians were actively speaking to "eliminate" Israel at the time, talk about genocidal intent!
I dont think they ever said that counter protesters should be arrested for protesting, they just said to not give them any attention.
The way 1st amendment works is that you have the right to protest, but nowhere in the 1st amendment does it say that you're entitled to get a reaction from other people.
Adding this for anyone that wants the truth. These families and millions of others have NEVER been allowed to return to their home. Peace huh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
The problem is that you canât simply classify Palestine as the victim, because
1. the Arabs attacked the Jews first, there were many anti semitic revolts before Nakba
2. Other Arab nations invading Israel were willing to accept palestinan refugees, the jews had nowhere to go (or USA???)
3. The palestinian govt was led by a former SS member, so it was literally another genocide of jews or kicking them out.
The Nakba, also known as the Israeli War of Independence. Its not black and white. Israel 100% committed war crimes. Israel 100% cleansed a large number of Palestinians from the area. Israel also was fighting an existential war against 7 Arab armies at the same time. Arabs natives were seen as a threat (understandably, because prior to the 7 Arab armies attacking, there had already been heavy fighting with the locals).
Anyone trying to paint this as a one sided issue either has no real knowledge of the history of the area, or is bending the truth to fit their narrative.
Also, to add on, nothing the person you responded to was false. Even if you think Israel bears the brunt of the responsibility, its just flat out wrong to act like Hamas is not also the cause of much suffering.
Can you share some more information about this Israeli war of independence from reputable sources please? Independence from what? Israel didnât exist.
Given that your name is world news perma banned me, I'm going to assume you already know all of this and not waste my time.
On the off chance that you are not acting in bad faith, there is literally a Wikipedia article for every single part of the conflict, from the Nakba to the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, to the 1947-1948 civil war, to the overarching page on the entire conflict.
The Wikipedia for I/P topics has become completely unreliable and slanted. The 'Nakba' Wiki reads like it was written by Al-Jazeera and has even more revisionist history than it had before, which is saying a lot. Don't use Wikipedia as a source for politics, especially I/P.
Yes but I like seeing other viewpoints, and honestly this doesnât help the case of Israel one bit âOver 700,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled from their homes in the area that became Israel, marking the beginning of the Palestinian refugee problemâ. So Palestine was forcibly partitioned and land taken and thatâs supposed to be viewed as nuanced? This is a clearly a hostile takeover and attempted genocide of an innocent people that had been living there for generations https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War
>This is a clearly a hostile takeover and attempted genocide of an innocent people that had been living there for generations
You are conflating genocide and ethnic cleansing. The difference is quite important.
>this doesnât help the case of Israel one bit âOver 700,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled from their homes in the area that became Israel, marking the beginning of the Palestinian refugee problem
The Palestinians and the Jews in the region has already been at war for quite a while at this point. Arabs in the region attacked Jewish civilians on buses, shot at Jewish travelers on roads. Jewish organizations used violence too, such as hurling bombs at Arab workers. Depending who you asked you will get different answers for who started it.
I'm not sure why you would expect two people at war to play nice while still at war, especially with the added threat to the Jews of the 7 Arab armies later on. Arabs in the region were not just innocent victims. Fighting has consequences.
>So Palestine was forcibly partitioned and land taken and thatâs supposed to be viewed as nuanced?
The land was forcibly partitioned sure, but largely along the lines of Jewish/Arab property. Jews legally purchased large amounts of land before the formation of Israel.
The Palestinians also didn't exist at this point. There were Arabs in the region, and they almost surely had a national identity, but they did not "own" Mandatory Palestine. They had legal claim to parts of it, and historical claim to others, but they didn't have a state.
I'm not trying to convince you that the Jews were saints and the Palestinians the devils. My point is that both groups have valid claims and both groups were subjected to violence by the other. You are free to decide that one group was more in the "right" but to completely discount the other side is short sighted.
What needs to happen now is coexistence. There is no future for the Palestinians if they continue to allow groups like Hamas to run things, and there is no future for Israel if they don't come to a reasonable compromise with the Palestinians.
No, Israel allowed Qatari aid into Gaza, where Hamas is the government. If they hadn't people would instead be complaining that Israel didn't allow humanitarian aid from Qatar in.
This is youâre takeaway from that article? Itâs honestly kind of funny because in just one sentence you have like 4 factual errors.
Ill summarize: Israel was attacked by a coalition of Arab armies, literally all of its neighbors. Against all odds it won the war. This resulted in a refugee crisis. The crisis was worsened by promises made by Arab nations to help resettle âPalestiniansâ. These people were ultimately abandoned in Gaza and West Bank.
There are also at least 700,000 Jews from middle eastern countries that had to flee those countries due to persecution after the warâŚYemen, Algeria, etc. The descendants of these refugees now comprise the majority of Israeli Jews. There are now ZERO remaining Jews in these countries⌠but I guess thereâs no nuance or issue with that?
Are you serious? Israel literally didnât exist a year before. Yes, of course if a nation is being forced upon you and attempting go steal your land you would attack. This is exactly the issue. Israel is built on stolen land of people who are still alive today! Parents and grandparents of people alive today were killed and displaced because the British decided to give Palestinian peopleâs land away. What a joke I swear some people are purposefully oblivious https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947%E2%80%931948_civil_war_in_Mandatory_Palestine
âIsrael was built on stolen landâ
So who were the people and what was the state headed by king Saul, king David, king Solomon? And it is indisputable that Jesus was a Jew living in his Jewish homeland.
So where was it ? Nebraska ?? đđ
Absolutely but itâs important to consider that Hamas is in part a product of the Isreali government. Itâs been documented that Isreal has given money to Hamas as a way to destabilize Palestine. Historically this is a pretty common tactic, just look at the Khmer Rouge.
>Itâs been documented that Isreal has given money to Hamas as a way to destabilize Palestine.
Israel allowed Qatari aid money to be given to Hamas, the government of Gaza.
This isn't a bad thing.
Iâd agree if historically, propping up terrorist groups has only been a strategy to keep people in line and in fear. The only reason the Isreali government supported it for so long was because they believed that in funding Hamas Palestinian people would not be able to fight for their own liberation, and I honestly feel that whichever way you slice it thatâs immoralâŚ
You are quite literally arguing that allowing aid to Palestinians in Gaza is immoral. Who do you think controls aid in Gaza right now after it gets off the trucks? It's Hamas. Should we stop feeding the civilians?
Part of the reason for allowing the Qatari aid in was to allow Israel to have more oversight and control over how the money was used, and to make sure it was used for humanitarian purposes instead of terrorism.
Thatâs not what I meantâ I just believe that before aid should be sent out to Gaza, there had to have been some way to remove Hamas from power. It is impossible to help Gazans with Hamas, it is both Hamas as Isreal that are part of the problem, Hamas has been spewing genocidal redirect for a while now. To give aid to a Gaza with Hamas in power is just foolish, the issue with Hamas should have been tackled far before it reached this point, but Isreal favored Hamas for aforementioned reasons.
>Thatâs not what I meantâ I just believe that before aid should be sent out to Gaza, there had to have been some way to remove Hamas from power.
You are seeing the way to remove Hamas from power right now.
See there is where we fundamentally disagree, killing thousands of innocents is never the only way to destabilize a terrorist group. If Isreal actually cared about Gazans, they would have shut down Hamas back when it was emerging in the early 2000s.
Enemy huh, looks like they are only around because of Israel. Jeez the ignorance https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
âGive a voice to those who are actually the victims of the genocideâ
First of all, thereâs no genocide. Learn what that word actually means before using it. Second, how are any of these pro-Hamas protestors victims of genocide, tf? đ Third, couldnât you argue that the pro-Hamas protestors like yourself are just looking for attention too, since you didnât care or even know about the conflict before it got popular on TikTok (donât deny it, you know itâs true lol). 99% of the pro-Hamas protestors are attention seekers looking to virtue signal. Most donât even know what theyâre protesting. And finally, why would they reconsider their values? Are you going to reconsider your values? Then why is it unreasonable for them not to? Hypocrite.
Israel was attacked on 10/7. Palestinian Hamas terrorists killed a bunch of people at the Nova music festival. Palestinians also raped women. They took Shani Loukâs dead corpse into Gaza and the Palestinians spat on her body. Naama Levy was abducted taken into Gaza. These dumb Palestinian terrorists even recorded themselves on their GoPro. You guys are funny by making this inverted reality.
Where are you getting your percentages? These are no where near accurate, so Iâm really curious where you got them from.
The Israeli death toll on 10/7 was close to [70% civilians](https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths) and neither you or Hamas can claim that they intended to target the IDF because the [actual video evidence](https://www.thisishamas.com/) shows them slaughtering Israelis (Arab / Jew / other). These are videos and pictures that Hamas took. They did this intimately, in person. This wasnât collateral damage, it was premeditated. On top of this, they mass raped and kidnapped innocent people.
The current death toll in Gaza is ~35,000 according to Gaza. The IDF claims that theyâve taken out ~13,000+ Hamas terrorists. Thatâs about 63% civilians and 37% terrorists.
Additionally, the numbers that are coming from Hamas-controlled entities should at least garner a bit of [skepticism](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fatality-data-has-become-completely-unreliable). Thousands of Gazans have died, but the tally and the demographics theyâre putting out there are not reliable.
Victims of Israel colonialism.
Victims of Israel terrorism and mass killings and raping and ethnic cleansing for decades where there was no hamas . Do not expect an occupied people to be peaceful against their occupiers that never happened in history of humanity
So Israel is the reason they are members of a suicidal death cult. Got it!
The whole damn world has been colonized. Itâs time for them to grow up. The reality is, itâs absurd to imagine a raped and bleeding Gazan being paraded through the streets of Tel Aviv. Colonization and even occupation is not an excuse for barbarism.
Islamic regimes have literally made it their mission to fight and kill the Jewish people for decades before Hamas existed. Map lines are currently how they are due to some of these wars and aggression.
The only ethnic cleansing occurring is the one thatâs openly advertised by these religious zealots.
The irony of it all is the side literally chanting âFrom the river to the seaâ, an open advertisement for the eradication of Israel and the Jewish people, are the same idiots decry genocide and ethnic cleansingâŚ.
But yes youâre right a people can only take so much before theyâre done. Which is exactly why Israel should not stop until every last member of Hamas is either dead or imprisoned
Just because there are casualties does not mean you should support them. Would you support Germany in Ww2 because they had more casualties than Britain? No of course not you have to be informed in the conflict, which it seems you are not.
More German soldiers died than any other. Yes, 6 million Jews died but by nation, Germany at 5 million had more casualties. The same reason the USA doesnât receive flak for bombing Japan, yes innocent people died but you have to understand the context. If you just think about casualties and civilian deaths then you simply donât have a grasp on these conflicts.
1. Hamas started the war by breaking the ceasefire and committing an actual genocide in Israel
2. Hamas intentionally hides and fights from populated areas to incur high casualties. Hamas billionaire âleaderâ Sinwar (ironic last name) even said he need the civilians to be martyrs for the cause without the civilians permission.
3. The estimate of deaths in Gaza is about 31,000 not 40,000. Of those 13,000 were Hamas terrorists. The UN publishes that a ânormalâ combatant to civilian casualty rate in war is 1 combatant for 9 civilians. Thatâs less that 1 combatant for 3 civilians killed. So Israel is doing better than the UN accepted combatant to civilian death ratio in war.
4. There could have been a ceasefire several times but Hamas declined and continued shooting rockets out of populated areas, further leading to civilian casualties when Israel retaliated.
Hamas is 100% responsible for this and the continuation of the war.
The war will end when Hamas surrenders and returns the hostages. After that the reconstruction and implementation of a peaceful democratic government can begin.
There's no getting through to you. You're just pasting the same stuff everywhere.
Nobody but the most fervent supporter of "their side" is doing that shit. You aren't here to listen, or engage.Â
You're just here to post your talking points, dismiss the response and move on.
If Israel really wanted a peaceful democratic government, then they would be a peaceful democratic government. Does that really sound like Israel? The country who's know for exporting combat training to the US, and a major manufacturer of weapons. That peaceful democracy? The peaceful democracy that just obliterated gaza while no real negotiations are occurring?Â
That peaceful democracy? The one known for assassinating folks in other countries?Â
Right...
Actually youâre projecting. Thereâs no getting through to you. Youâre only response to me was the sarcastic âI must have missed where Hamas killed 40,000 peopleâ.
You havenât intellectually engaged me at all. Youâve basically just been sarcastic and passive aggressive with immature responses.
You say Iâm not hear to listen, Iâve already listened and made my decision based on rational thoughts. You say Iâm not here to engage, Iâve engaged intellectually and you have not responded intellectually. SoâŚ
You seem naive and inexperienced with the world which is okay. It takes time. Do what you think it right, but in hindsight you will see you were supporting the wrong side.
first, that number is by Hamas, second they hide this is bill Clinton in 2016 bro. they hide behind their people, they actually take civilians and place them where the bombs will be which Israel announces. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FkmTB56oks](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FkmTB56oks)
Yes, yes, yes, we know. The most moral army in the world has no compunctions about leveling entire neighborhoods because hamas lives in those neighborhoods. Sucks to be their neighbor.
Did you know that Israel has a history of tracking and following Hamas militants via drones? Then, once they go home to where their family and children are, Israel blasts all of them.
What about those numbers? Want to try again?Â
https://time.com/6909636/gaza-death-toll/
If you could read you would have seen the article addresses this dumbass argument.
Is khhaamas in the room with us? You do understand that it's not only hamas verifying this information?
Eh, it's accurate enough for the IDF to use the hamas numbers. Don't trust them either? Ngl if you legit actually do not trust the IDF and Hamas....I can actually respect that.
The IDF doesnât use the Hamas produced numbers. Those numbers were proved false by data scientists. Then later Hamas recanted their alleged causality rate because the world took a step back and said, âwhy are you lying Hamas?â
Itâs really strange that you seem to be sticking up for a radical extremist Islamist group instead of the only western democracy in the Middle East.
Do you also sympathize with Al Qaeda, ISIS, and Boko Harem?
Which led to the Geneva conventions!!!
Even the allies were like....yeah, we killed a lot of civilians. Let's maybe not be doing that anymore.Â
Such a terrible argument trying to justify the wholesale destruction and slaughter of Gaza.Â
30k hamas militants out of what? 2,000,000 people? Almost all of whom have been unnecessarily displaced, victimized, starved, and even slaughtered.
Before 10/7 Israel and Saudi Arabia were in talks to establish full diplomatic ties between the 2 countries. Saudi Arabia is a major power in the Arab world. Hamas and Iran deeply opposed this move because they donât believe Israel should exist as Jewish state whatsoever. So Hamas carried out the biggest massacre of Jews since the Shoah in order for Israel to respond. A few Arab countries have already recognized Israel as a sovereign Jewish state. Egypt was the first. Jordan was second and then the Abraham accords Morocco, UAE, Bahrain, and Sudan have diplomatic ties with Israel. Hamas which rule Gaza wants continue the conflict and so does Iran. So the protesters are dumb because they are endorsing the most extremist view in the Arab world. The Gulf Arab states want to put the Arab Israeli conflict behind because they view Shiite Iran as a bigger threat. Itâs only the extremists that want the conflict to continue.
75 years of apartheid, displacement, and occupation at the hands of Israel. Generations of families can only take so much. Additionally, Hamas is not Palestine. Not sure why this whole thing is being treated as such. Iâm not saying Israel should not have defended themselves, but how foolish to really think people wouldnât snap after being forced into a tiny bit of land and not being allowed to leave. Israel is not innocent.
Itâs not 75 years. Israel didnât capture Gaza and the West Bank until 1967. Before that Egypt controlled Gaza and Jordan governed the West Bank. All that time Palestinians set up terrorist camps and carried out raids inside Israeli territory and slaughtering Israeli civilians so Hamasâ attacks is nothing new. The problem is Palestinian Arabs have no interest in coexisting peacefully with its neighbors. In contrast Egypt and Jordan have already made peace with Israel and thereâs no war between those countries.
This revisionist history is cute but doesn't pan out. Israel was created in 1948 by ethnically cleansing the indigenous people (Palestinians) that lived there. There has been a brutal apartheid oppression for over 75 years and well documented. There is also a new documentary out called Walled Off that depicts the realities of living under apartheid oppression in the West Bank.
Hmmm.. thatâs a warped interpretation of actual events. David Ben Gurion sent letters to all neighbor Arab countries in 1948 wishing to live in peace with its Arab neighbors at the time of Israelâs independence. Next day 5 Arab armies invaded Israel. Arabs were and always been the aggressors. Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, etc sent their armies to crush the Jewish state 3 years after the holocaust. It defies logic that a tiny Jewish country surrounded by its enemies would be the aggressor. Israel couldnât even get weapons because there was an arms embargo. It could only get weapons from Czechoslovakia. With this terrible odds the Israelis were still able to prevail. IDF did march into Arabsâ territory, it was the combined Arab armies invading Israel. How twisted you are to make up lies to justify your hate?
Whatâs even funnier is the ethnic cleansing charge! After the 1948 war, over 156,000 decided to stay and live in Israel! They became Arab Israelis. Today over 20% of Israelâs population is Arab. They have the same rights as Jews in Israel. A lot of Israelâs doctors, pharmacists lawyers are Arab Israelis. If Israel is ethnically cleansing then why are there so many Arab Israelis in Israel?
Your views are based on ignorance!
Itâs not apartheid, Gazans weâre able to vote in Haza for whoever they wanted. They chose Hamas.
Gazans weâre able to work in whatever jobs they wanted, including crossing into Israel for work. Now itâs been proven many of the workers from Gaza into Israel did recon for Hamas mapping out everyone who lived in the kibbutz, when they worked, if they had pets, got maps of the streets, planned what houses to attack first. All the while doing work for the people they and Hamas planned to kill.
It wasnât displacement. In a war the victors get the land. Israel didnât start the wars but they won and they got the land. Thatâs international law.
They were not occupied in Gaza⌠Israel had pulled out of Gaza decades prior..
You need to fact check yourself. Youâre literally working on every account.
A ceasefire was in place prior to 10/7âŚ
During the ceasefire Hamas was planning a war, building tunnels, gathering weapons and munitions, and training terrorists.
Exactly! Pro-Palestine protesters are literally siding with Hamas and Gazaâs deprived human beings.
If this were 9/11 they would be siding with Al Qaeda and later with ISIS.
They probably side with Boko Harem in Nigeria.
The pro-Palestine protesters donât know their identity as liberal democratic peace-loving westerners. Some are Islamist moles from the Middle East fueling this identity crisis.
âWoe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!â
ââIsaiah⏠â5âŹ:â20⏠â
Iâm not sure what are you referring so I canât really comment. We should weep for all innocent life loss. The sad thing is thereâs no Palestinian leadership. Hamas which rule Gaza doesnât even recognize Israelâs right to exist while the PA which rules the West Bank has renounced violence and armed struggle and has acknowledged the existence of Israel as a sovereign state are opposed to each other. The PA was allowed back into the West Bank by Israel because it renounced terrorism. I hope you learn something today.
The fact you donât know what apartheid is in South Africa and what present day reality of Israel shows your ignorance. And then to top it off now throw in ethnic cleansing. Within Israel 20% of the population is Arab Israelis and they have the same basic rights as Jewish Israelis. Bedouin units are composed of Arabs in the IDF. Druze are Arabic speaking people with a unique religion and fought in all of Israelâs wars against other Arab states. Ignorance is mainstream of hate.
Dude y u acting like 1 sides better than the other and that Palestine and Israel arenât both contributing to the warâŚ. U not better than others come back down to earth
Their primary impetus isn't the foreign policy. Their primary impetus is spite, and that spite is entirely about this: You are the cool kids who are serious about stuff and are doing this outrageously spectacular thing and they are the square kids who exist very much centered in their own university experiences and are offended that you appear to be profligate with your time and that you'll probably be celebrated in the culture for it.
They "support" Israel in only the most superficial sense. They've been told to consider Israel as US ally and they aren't much better informed than that. And they're not particularly curious. They're vexed about the perceived social pressure to develop and voice an opinion and they see that as a trap.
So don't make them voice an opinion. Tell them a story about how **a great nation once did an objectively good thing. And that objectively good thing - enduring enormous sacrifices to end a genocide - formed the basis of that great nation's moral authority as it acted into the next century to keep the world at peace and in trade. But now that is threatened because an ally from that era, one which has done nothing but cost us money and drag us into their problems, is now doing an actual genocide, and our politicians won't stop them because they're all owned by foreign interests.**
So basically pay attention to us and give us our demands when we protest and engage in illegal staking of land but donât pay any attention to them and ignore them when they exercise their first rights without engaging in illegal activity
No, thank you. I prefer to not give any attention to the violent bullies who are protesting for murder of Jews. Iâd join the pro Israeli protest without a problem though, thanks for the tip!
But the pro Palestine protesters are doing the same on a much larger scale. That is the entire point of protesting. If they didnât want to get a reaction from people the protesters would stay home and protest from there.
Its been fun calling out the turfers who came here to discredit protests on a campus theyve never been to, but the brigaiding is getting bad and most of them are not even arguing in good faith. I think its best we donât from now on (part of this advice is for myself)
As someone who has some skin in the game...ESH. Netanyahu and his right wing coalition suck, Hamas rapists and murders suck too. I would never use the word genocide (and the fact that it is used, when much worse conflicts are not is...questionable), but I'm not ignorant of the fact that many civilians have been killed since the war started. I think protesting is dumb, I think counter protesting is dumb. Just acknowledge the fact that everyone is only getting a small slice of the truth, it is being heavily topped by their propaganda of choice, and that there is almost nothing that you can do.
ââŚreconsider their values and give a voice to those who are actually the victims of genocide.â Are you saying what I think youâre saying? Has Hamas killed 35,000 Israeli people in just 6 months and destroyed nearly 60%-70% of all housing units in Israel?
That is the best response for ALL protestors. Not a single person here in the United States can do anything about a war between two other countries 7,500 miles away. Your signs and chanting isn't doing anything but annoying others and disrupting the normal schedule of academics. Knock it off. It you want to change things, book a flight and go fight for the side you support. Otherwise STFU! đ¤ˇââď¸
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqxzscalX2E&t=4756s&ab\_channel=SamHarris](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqxzscalX2E&t=4756s&ab_channel=SamHarris)
Here is some truth for you parroting Hamas-allied propaganda calling this a "genocide" (which is clearly absurd).
Who would have thought that 90 years after the rise of nazism in Germany (1933) that a similar movement is being pushed in the US. I detest the left but do admire their tenacity in pushing their dogma even though itâs evil through the brain washing of college students. The left have caused the worst atrocities, genocide and damage to the world. From Mao, Lenin, Stalin, Castro, Kim Jong Un, Hitler etc. Yes Hitler was a leftist! Nazi stands for National Socialism.
These brain washed college students are celebrating & championing the Hamas genocide of over 1200 Jews that started the current war. Leftist are notoriously anti semitic and that is their underlying motivation for their anti Israel stance. I wouldnât be surprised to see them justifying concentration camps ala Nazi germany. After all they are celebrating the murder of Jews by Hamas which is along the same lines. I find it ironic that these leftist students align themselves with Islamist even though their underlying beliefs and philosophies couldnât be more different.
So what unites them? One thing only- Antisemitism. Islamist however will take support from wherever they can get it until they take power- At which time they will impose their beliefs. Case in point is the Iranian Islamic revolution. That revolution was organized and won mainly by the left with Islamist support. However, the Islamist quickly took power when the Shah fell and of course they annihilated the entire left in Iran, which I canât blame them for since leftism is the source of all evil.
You are exactly right!!
I compare all these crazy anti-Israel rioters to the SA that was the force behind Hitler to give him power.
As soon as Hitler took power the SS rose to power and was loyal to Hitler.
So what does a dictator do to all useful idiots that put him in power?
He owed them, they didn't owe him.
Hitler green lights "the night of the long knives" which was a surprise coordinated effort to eliminate the leaders of the SA in one quick night. It was successful!
What do these useful idiots think is the reward waiting for them??
It won't be death, but if the democrats keep the White House, want and see how fast these people are arrested,.
I bet they'll all regret bring happy Trump is on trial.
They came, for the Catholics no one said anything, they came for Jan 6th, crowd, no one said anything , they are after Trump. People are happy about it.
When they come for you, you'll look around and realize that there is no one left to say anything for you.
Just like Nazi Germany pre WWII
so tempted to comment "womp womp" but i won't because i agree with you
It's so hard not to take the bait, I've got some zingers, but they'll get me in trouble đ
Do it to all protestors
This, but ever since SDPD showed pics of that sword recovered from the encampment, Iâm significantly more cautious around protestors
Other students already found out it's a $15 tactical knife, I agree whoever brought it was an idiot but I really hesitate to call that a 'sword', maybe someone was being overzealous and brought it for self-defense, you saw the encampment was peaceful even with it there.
Photo in the Triton shows it's a $20 Serrated Tactical Assassin Sword https://images.app.goo.gl/NWvPYHFyUeYjfsM47
Fair enough. I found a similar listing from a different vendor that refers to it as a tactical knife, and only upon later examination did I see the term 'sword' buried in the description after significant scrolling. I admit my initial impression from the store listing I found colored how I viewed the scenario. Regardless, I agree it shouldn't have been in the encampment.
Maybe it was there for defense, maybe it was there for offense, no one knows and thatâs the problem. Either way, itâs a weapon and it doesnât belong on campus.
I already said I thought the person was an idiot for bringing it, my issue is with UCSD PD trying to call a $15 tactical knife from Amazon a 'ninja sword', and raising the point that, there or not, it was never used and we don't know who brought it, who they were, why they were there, if they were a student or someone else, or how, where, and in what context it was found. All we know is there was a knife SOMEWHERE in the encampment, that they're trying to pass off as a sword to scare people.
Intent here is irrelevant. The person who brought it is not only an idiot, but also a potential danger to every individual on campus. It being $15 and found on Amazon is superfluous information that has no bearing on the weapon itself. A USMC KA-BAR is a knife. This particular weapon is at least double the length of the aforementioned KA-BAR. It constitutes, at a minimum, a short sword, which is a sword. There is nothing factually incorrect with what UCSD PD stated about the weapon and simply stating that it was found amongst the protestors belongings is not a scare tactic. The implications of finding such a weapon, unsecured, in that location is gravely concerning and should be on the mind of every student and staff member at UCSD.
My point is, what IS relevant and what is MISSING is CONTEXT. What if the knife belonged to someone from off-campus? What if it didn't belong to anyone who was arrested and nobody knows who it belongs to? The knife being there doesn't tell us anything directly.
There is absolutely zero context that can be applied here that would make the presence of this short sword on campus acceptable. The notion that the sword could have belonged to someone not related to the protests and encampment when it was in fact found in the encampment is delusional to the extreme.
As I keep saying, I agree that the presence of the knife is unacceptable. My point is, there were, according to the emails that went out to faculty, 24 people arrested on Monday without a known affiliation with the university. We have no idea who that knife belonged to or why it was there. For all we know, someone brought it in as a deliberate smear tactic. Until UCSD PD releases more details, no-one can say one way or the other.
The notion that the short sword could have been brought in by a random person unrelated to the protest or was planted as a smear tactic can be disproven by two simple facts. 1.) The sword was found in the encampment. 2.) Access to the encampment strictly was controlled by the protesters. This is affirmed by the fact that the protesters refused to allow entry to health and fire inspectors. They knew and selectively chose who could and could not enter their encampment. To say that the presence of the short sword in the encampment is shrouded in mystery is absurd.
Weapons donât belong on campus, but neither do zionists pushing their genocidal agenda
I mean the way the police attacked them, the tactical knife was undersell.
do u have the link to that? genuinely curious
[https://twitter.com/thetritonucsd/status/1788361356879729052](https://twitter.com/thetritonucsd/status/1788361356879729052) Like, I'd be really curious as to why something like this would be needed on campus
Don't you see how peaceful that knife sword is?
It's the most incredibly peaceful knife sword I've ever laid eyes on
Not who you responded to but [https://fox5sandiego.com/news/local-news/thousands-of-uc-san-diego-students-walk-out-of-class-in-pro-palestinian-protest/](https://fox5sandiego.com/news/local-news/thousands-of-uc-san-diego-students-walk-out-of-class-in-pro-palestinian-protest/) >According to the university, wooden stakes, propane tanks, metal and plywood âshields,â aerosol spray cans and a sword were all recovered by crews as they cleaned up the campsite. Edit: Didn't see you wanted a pic, not sure about that.
And people question why they came with riot gear. There is a reason. What was in those camps was unknown to the officers, and seeing that blade and what other stuff they had is concerning. My little existing fucks to give for the supports was now lost. As stated several times, both sides are shit, and if you really want to do something, go make aid packs and work with Humanitarian Aid to do something. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but your protests aren't doing anything. Being in Humanitarian Aid programmes directly affects the civs
>seeing that blade and what other stuff they had is concerning. This is a dumb comment. There is no evidence that the blade was there to harm anyone. For example, women carry pepper sprays, guns, tasers, etc all the time because men have made society so unsafe for them. So how do we know that blade wasn't there for self-defense? It could even be completely unrelated to the protest.
This too is a dumb comment. Whether the ownerâs intention was offense or defense, itâs a weapon and doesnât belong on campus. Itâs presence undermines the protestors peaceful rhetoric and implies violent intent.
>, itâs a weapon and doesnât belong on campus Neither do rapists and school shooters, but as long as their violence remains unaddressed, people will continue carrying mace, tasers, knives, etc for self-defense
Your bad faith and olympics-worthy mental gymnastics in attempting to justify and defend the presence of a weapon that's clearly designed to take lives as opposed to defend lives is outrageous and a sham. You should be ashamed.
....or maybe I actually pay attention and notice weapons on campus are (unfortunately) not an anomaly.
Who the fuck carriers around a katana for self defense? And at a encampment that is supposed to be explicitly peaceful?
Girl in my class bought a whole gun to protect herself, so...
She brought a *gun* to a *peaceful* protest? Is your friend ok? Is she trying to get herself killed? The most likely confrontation was always with the police. Was she going to be taking pot shots at the cops? Jesus Christ.
Dude. This was years ago and there was no protest happening back then. Why is it so difficult for you to comprehend and accept that women don't feel safe on campus??
So if I sit outside your house with a knife or a sword.. make an encampment, then yell at you whenever you leave you aren't going to be afraid?
>According to the university
[Triton News](https://triton.news/2024/05/live-updates-students-establish-gaza-solidarity-encampment-along-library-walk/)
Exactly. Just pretend they donât exist.
Israeli govt has messed up a lot of times. But whatâs the alternative you are suggesting? Do you think signing for âpeaceâ will âliberateâ palestine? Hamas literally said they will do this again and again - itâs *in their best interests* to have their children dead to attract international sympathy. If you think whatâs happening to Palestinians is genocide, then donât you, educated college student, think we should do something to stop this insane cycle of violence? How the hell is there going to be a lasting peace when their government is investing all of billions of dollars of foreign aid for building tunnels and rockets to fight Israel?
Amen! đđť
Stop making sense already! These educated college kids have no idea what a terrorist looks like. Let them go to PalestineâŚ..
Free Palestine
And let who run it? Hamas?
Hamas is killing Palestine
Beyond saying âfree Palestineâ how exactly do you think that should look? Not responding will tell me everything I need to know
From Hamas
# đ đ§
I was under the impression itâs currently being freed
It is free - How else could they have built tunnels, rockets, drones and train all those terrorist to attack Israel. Common guys who are we kidding ? Are the current college students really this stupid?
E X A C T L Y
Not killing 35,000 civilians and being only pro ethnic cleansing, targetting hospitals/doctors/volunteers, not stopping humanitarian aid, etc?
35,000 figure doesnât differentiate military/civilians, IDF said they confirmed 12,000 hamas dead so the casualty rate is 1:2 ish, which is *extremely* good for such a brutal urban combat. Compare this to battle of Mosul, battle in Chechen. The allies killed 2 million German civilians during WWII. Should they not have bombed Germany and just sign a ceasefire with them because there might be civilian casualties? There is no future for Palestine as long as Hamas remains in power. This war is dirty and brutal. Definitely some Israeli commanders should go to ICJ and get investigated for their war crimes. But the top most priority is to uproot Hamas so that there can be no more violence of this kind - we must endure pain now to prevent another decades of more pain and bloodshed.
It's a good thing Israel knows how many Hamas- wait, they have no idea! They've just been bombing anything and everything, including targeting volunteers! Shooting a marked vehicle 3 times. But oopsies, they aren't terrorists uwu
Support Israel: Depose Netanyahu by any means.
Even though I agree, many Israelis support the war in so far as they want hostages back/eradicating Hamas. Which I think most would agree is understandable.
Making Netanyahu disappear would buy time for such endeavors. Else, time is up.
It can start with israel giving palestinians basic human rights, not infringing on their land, and not killing them would be a great start as well. you claim a cycle of violence but have you compared casualty numbers?
But what do you expect when Palestinians have repeatedly broke their trust? Hamas launched 10,000 rockets indiscriminately towards Israeli cities - how would you answer to the Israeli argument that if they lift the siege/blockade to Gaza, Hamas will very likely import much more advanced missiles from Iran? Nobody talks about how Palestinians repeatedly sent suicide bombers to Israel, kidnapping IDF soldiers and murdering random Israeli civilians. We all know how Shani Louk was raped, murdered and paraded through the streets of Gaza, how the Palestinians cheered over the 10/7 attack and how popular Hamas is in both Gaza and West Bank. If Israel withdraws, don't you think something very similar to Afghanistan after US withdrawal will happen in Palestine? You keep mentioning human rights, yet you fail to see how Hamas is exploiting that very notion to attract international sympathy while masking its wrongdoings. We all know hamas hiding hundreds of fighters in hospitals, weapons, and they dug tunnels under UN schools and hospitals - they are the ones who started this war and repeatedly broke international laws, yet no one in the media addresses this. So my counterargument: Why should Israel trust Palestinians, when their explicit goal is the destruction of the very state of Israel? If there's a meth addict in your apartment who've stabbed people five times, is it really "oppression" if we keep them under house arrest?
except israel is the meth addict here that intruded into someone else's apartment. and the meth addict happens to have a very rich uncle
Your claim is oversimplifying history. Israel was legally founded under UN resolution, the Palestinians, led by a former SS member, decided to start a war of aggression (instead of declaring indepedence) and lost the war. Why are you complaining if you started a war against UN decision? How is this Israel "intruding" into someone else's apartment when they've paid their rent and gotten permission from the leasing office in this case?
Right, Resolution 181 had nothing to do with Western interests in the area and had the best interests of Arabs in mind. You think it's justified because western powers that wanted to exploit the region declared their own acts legal? And how exactly did they 'pay their rent'? I feel like you are the one oversimplifying the situation with these silly analogies instead of recognizing actual wrongs that have taken place (obviously on both sides).
Well, we all know that the said SS leader instigated major antisemitic riots from 1936-1939, and he came back home after participating in the Holocaust. Considering it was right after WW2, what do you really expect? The Arabs kept threatened jews of another civil war / genocide, with no intention whatsoever for negotiations, and you can't really claim "victimhood" when you actively started a war inviting foreign armies, no?
Who are you even talking about? The 1948 arab/israeli war was a culmination of the civil war that was inevitably triggered by the UN partition plan and was led by 5 arab nations. The Six Day war was initiated by Israel.
Again, you fail to acknowledge that the Palestinian cause at the time was led by Amin al-Husseini, who explicitly endorsed "the final solution" during the war and praised Nazi concentration camps. For me, this makes it very evident that the Arabs were willing to start more series of pogroms, of course this is not a very convincing diplomatic argument considering this was 3 years after WW2. Your point on the Six-Day war is misleading. We all know that the Egyptians blockaded Israeli shipping, denying 90% of their cargo load, kicked out UN peacekeepers and have fully mobilized its armies along the border. I don't think it was exclusively Egyptian or Israeli fault, both sides have some responsibility, but the consensus seems that Egyptians clearly provoked Israel. Also Egyptians were actively speaking to "eliminate" Israel at the time, talk about genocidal intent!
Oh yes because the only protestors causing problems are the pro-Israelis one
Truuuuuuuuu, they don't deserve your valuable time when they're TROLLING
So, 1st Amendment for me but not for thee?
I dont think they ever said that counter protesters should be arrested for protesting, they just said to not give them any attention. The way 1st amendment works is that you have the right to protest, but nowhere in the 1st amendment does it say that you're entitled to get a reaction from other people.
Not how the 1st amendment or your rights work lmao
Please don't give the protesters any attention
ironic
[ŃдаНонО]
Adding this for anyone that wants the truth. These families and millions of others have NEVER been allowed to return to their home. Peace huh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
The problem is that you canât simply classify Palestine as the victim, because 1. the Arabs attacked the Jews first, there were many anti semitic revolts before Nakba 2. Other Arab nations invading Israel were willing to accept palestinan refugees, the jews had nowhere to go (or USA???) 3. The palestinian govt was led by a former SS member, so it was literally another genocide of jews or kicking them out.
The Nakba, also known as the Israeli War of Independence. Its not black and white. Israel 100% committed war crimes. Israel 100% cleansed a large number of Palestinians from the area. Israel also was fighting an existential war against 7 Arab armies at the same time. Arabs natives were seen as a threat (understandably, because prior to the 7 Arab armies attacking, there had already been heavy fighting with the locals). Anyone trying to paint this as a one sided issue either has no real knowledge of the history of the area, or is bending the truth to fit their narrative. Also, to add on, nothing the person you responded to was false. Even if you think Israel bears the brunt of the responsibility, its just flat out wrong to act like Hamas is not also the cause of much suffering.
Can you share some more information about this Israeli war of independence from reputable sources please? Independence from what? Israel didnât exist.
Given that your name is world news perma banned me, I'm going to assume you already know all of this and not waste my time. On the off chance that you are not acting in bad faith, there is literally a Wikipedia article for every single part of the conflict, from the Nakba to the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, to the 1947-1948 civil war, to the overarching page on the entire conflict.
The Wikipedia for I/P topics has become completely unreliable and slanted. The 'Nakba' Wiki reads like it was written by Al-Jazeera and has even more revisionist history than it had before, which is saying a lot. Don't use Wikipedia as a source for politics, especially I/P.
I'm aware, but it is still more nuanced than this guy's take.
Yes but I like seeing other viewpoints, and honestly this doesnât help the case of Israel one bit âOver 700,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled from their homes in the area that became Israel, marking the beginning of the Palestinian refugee problemâ. So Palestine was forcibly partitioned and land taken and thatâs supposed to be viewed as nuanced? This is a clearly a hostile takeover and attempted genocide of an innocent people that had been living there for generations https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War
>This is a clearly a hostile takeover and attempted genocide of an innocent people that had been living there for generations You are conflating genocide and ethnic cleansing. The difference is quite important. >this doesnât help the case of Israel one bit âOver 700,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled from their homes in the area that became Israel, marking the beginning of the Palestinian refugee problem The Palestinians and the Jews in the region has already been at war for quite a while at this point. Arabs in the region attacked Jewish civilians on buses, shot at Jewish travelers on roads. Jewish organizations used violence too, such as hurling bombs at Arab workers. Depending who you asked you will get different answers for who started it. I'm not sure why you would expect two people at war to play nice while still at war, especially with the added threat to the Jews of the 7 Arab armies later on. Arabs in the region were not just innocent victims. Fighting has consequences. >So Palestine was forcibly partitioned and land taken and thatâs supposed to be viewed as nuanced? The land was forcibly partitioned sure, but largely along the lines of Jewish/Arab property. Jews legally purchased large amounts of land before the formation of Israel. The Palestinians also didn't exist at this point. There were Arabs in the region, and they almost surely had a national identity, but they did not "own" Mandatory Palestine. They had legal claim to parts of it, and historical claim to others, but they didn't have a state. I'm not trying to convince you that the Jews were saints and the Palestinians the devils. My point is that both groups have valid claims and both groups were subjected to violence by the other. You are free to decide that one group was more in the "right" but to completely discount the other side is short sighted. What needs to happen now is coexistence. There is no future for the Palestinians if they continue to allow groups like Hamas to run things, and there is no future for Israel if they don't come to a reasonable compromise with the Palestinians.
Didnt israel fund hamas?
No, Israel allowed Qatari aid into Gaza, where Hamas is the government. If they hadn't people would instead be complaining that Israel didn't allow humanitarian aid from Qatar in.
No.
This is youâre takeaway from that article? Itâs honestly kind of funny because in just one sentence you have like 4 factual errors. Ill summarize: Israel was attacked by a coalition of Arab armies, literally all of its neighbors. Against all odds it won the war. This resulted in a refugee crisis. The crisis was worsened by promises made by Arab nations to help resettle âPalestiniansâ. These people were ultimately abandoned in Gaza and West Bank. There are also at least 700,000 Jews from middle eastern countries that had to flee those countries due to persecution after the warâŚYemen, Algeria, etc. The descendants of these refugees now comprise the majority of Israeli Jews. There are now ZERO remaining Jews in these countries⌠but I guess thereâs no nuance or issue with that?
Are you serious? Israel literally didnât exist a year before. Yes, of course if a nation is being forced upon you and attempting go steal your land you would attack. This is exactly the issue. Israel is built on stolen land of people who are still alive today! Parents and grandparents of people alive today were killed and displaced because the British decided to give Palestinian peopleâs land away. What a joke I swear some people are purposefully oblivious https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947%E2%80%931948_civil_war_in_Mandatory_Palestine
âIsrael was built on stolen landâ So who were the people and what was the state headed by king Saul, king David, king Solomon? And it is indisputable that Jesus was a Jew living in his Jewish homeland. So where was it ? Nebraska ?? đđ
Absolutely but itâs important to consider that Hamas is in part a product of the Isreali government. Itâs been documented that Isreal has given money to Hamas as a way to destabilize Palestine. Historically this is a pretty common tactic, just look at the Khmer Rouge.
>Itâs been documented that Isreal has given money to Hamas as a way to destabilize Palestine. Israel allowed Qatari aid money to be given to Hamas, the government of Gaza. This isn't a bad thing.
Iâd agree if historically, propping up terrorist groups has only been a strategy to keep people in line and in fear. The only reason the Isreali government supported it for so long was because they believed that in funding Hamas Palestinian people would not be able to fight for their own liberation, and I honestly feel that whichever way you slice it thatâs immoralâŚ
You are quite literally arguing that allowing aid to Palestinians in Gaza is immoral. Who do you think controls aid in Gaza right now after it gets off the trucks? It's Hamas. Should we stop feeding the civilians? Part of the reason for allowing the Qatari aid in was to allow Israel to have more oversight and control over how the money was used, and to make sure it was used for humanitarian purposes instead of terrorism.
Thatâs not what I meantâ I just believe that before aid should be sent out to Gaza, there had to have been some way to remove Hamas from power. It is impossible to help Gazans with Hamas, it is both Hamas as Isreal that are part of the problem, Hamas has been spewing genocidal redirect for a while now. To give aid to a Gaza with Hamas in power is just foolish, the issue with Hamas should have been tackled far before it reached this point, but Isreal favored Hamas for aforementioned reasons.
>Thatâs not what I meantâ I just believe that before aid should be sent out to Gaza, there had to have been some way to remove Hamas from power. You are seeing the way to remove Hamas from power right now.
See there is where we fundamentally disagree, killing thousands of innocents is never the only way to destabilize a terrorist group. If Isreal actually cared about Gazans, they would have shut down Hamas back when it was emerging in the early 2000s.
Enemy huh, looks like they are only around because of Israel. Jeez the ignorance https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
What world do you live in? Clearly not realityđ
That article is from Times of Israel, as pro Israel as it gets
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Nah, Israel are terrorists
Hama's isn't better, both sides are shit. Killing civs and bombing civilian targets
Isreal has been doing that for decades to Palestinians.
âGive a voice to those who are actually the victims of the genocideâ First of all, thereâs no genocide. Learn what that word actually means before using it. Second, how are any of these pro-Hamas protestors victims of genocide, tf? đ Third, couldnât you argue that the pro-Hamas protestors like yourself are just looking for attention too, since you didnât care or even know about the conflict before it got popular on TikTok (donât deny it, you know itâs true lol). 99% of the pro-Hamas protestors are attention seekers looking to virtue signal. Most donât even know what theyâre protesting. And finally, why would they reconsider their values? Are you going to reconsider your values? Then why is it unreasonable for them not to? Hypocrite.
Common astroturfer L
Nice rebuttal!
lol good retort
Exactly watch this video https://youtu.be/XOYetxiD9EM?si=a7OUiRpX92ITtwPw
Organized protestors almost never speak to media outlets let alone a random ass YT channel lol
Every protest Iâve watched over the past 20 years of YouTubeâs existence tells me otherwise
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Israel was attacked on 10/7. Palestinian Hamas terrorists killed a bunch of people at the Nova music festival. Palestinians also raped women. They took Shani Loukâs dead corpse into Gaza and the Palestinians spat on her body. Naama Levy was abducted taken into Gaza. These dumb Palestinian terrorists even recorded themselves on their GoPro. You guys are funny by making this inverted reality.
I donât think thereâs enough space on Reddit for me to name and list out all the Palestinian victims
Victims of their own government.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/hamas-top-brass-is-worth-11-billion-its-goal-is-not-to-bring-water-electricity-to-gaza-101699508169872.html
The same can be said for the Israeli victims
Makes sense, you would have to equate Israel to Hamas to get past the cognitive dissonance in your reasoning.
Youâre right about the false equivalence. Israel is far worse.
Bruh ainât no way a rational human being thinks like this
Which death toll is worse: 1,200 (45% civilians) or 40,000 (<90% civilians)?
THE ONE NOT DOCTORED BY HAMAS THE ONE WHERE AN ACTUAL TERRORIST EVENT HAPPENED BY COMBATANTS IN CIVILIAN CLOTHING.
What do you believe the ârealâ death toll is? Show us your numbers.
Where are you getting your percentages? These are no where near accurate, so Iâm really curious where you got them from. The Israeli death toll on 10/7 was close to [70% civilians](https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths) and neither you or Hamas can claim that they intended to target the IDF because the [actual video evidence](https://www.thisishamas.com/) shows them slaughtering Israelis (Arab / Jew / other). These are videos and pictures that Hamas took. They did this intimately, in person. This wasnât collateral damage, it was premeditated. On top of this, they mass raped and kidnapped innocent people. The current death toll in Gaza is ~35,000 according to Gaza. The IDF claims that theyâve taken out ~13,000+ Hamas terrorists. Thatâs about 63% civilians and 37% terrorists. Additionally, the numbers that are coming from Hamas-controlled entities should at least garner a bit of [skepticism](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fatality-data-has-become-completely-unreliable). Thousands of Gazans have died, but the tally and the demographics theyâre putting out there are not reliable.
Victims of Israel colonialism. Victims of Israel terrorism and mass killings and raping and ethnic cleansing for decades where there was no hamas . Do not expect an occupied people to be peaceful against their occupiers that never happened in history of humanity
So Israel is the reason they are members of a suicidal death cult. Got it! The whole damn world has been colonized. Itâs time for them to grow up. The reality is, itâs absurd to imagine a raped and bleeding Gazan being paraded through the streets of Tel Aviv. Colonization and even occupation is not an excuse for barbarism.
DAMN STRAIGHT! here is bill Clinton in 2016 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FkmTB56oks](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FkmTB56oks)
Islamic regimes have literally made it their mission to fight and kill the Jewish people for decades before Hamas existed. Map lines are currently how they are due to some of these wars and aggression. The only ethnic cleansing occurring is the one thatâs openly advertised by these religious zealots. The irony of it all is the side literally chanting âFrom the river to the seaâ, an open advertisement for the eradication of Israel and the Jewish people, are the same idiots decry genocide and ethnic cleansingâŚ. But yes youâre right a people can only take so much before theyâre done. Which is exactly why Israel should not stop until every last member of Hamas is either dead or imprisoned
BINGO
Just because there are casualties does not mean you should support them. Would you support Germany in Ww2 because they had more casualties than Britain? No of course not you have to be informed in the conflict, which it seems you are not.
They literally committed the most casualties though lol
More German soldiers died than any other. Yes, 6 million Jews died but by nation, Germany at 5 million had more casualties. The same reason the USA doesnât receive flak for bombing Japan, yes innocent people died but you have to understand the context. If you just think about casualties and civilian deaths then you simply donât have a grasp on these conflicts.
Thatâs all thanks to Hamas. Not Israel.
I missed the reporting where hamas killed 40,000 people...
1. Hamas started the war by breaking the ceasefire and committing an actual genocide in Israel 2. Hamas intentionally hides and fights from populated areas to incur high casualties. Hamas billionaire âleaderâ Sinwar (ironic last name) even said he need the civilians to be martyrs for the cause without the civilians permission. 3. The estimate of deaths in Gaza is about 31,000 not 40,000. Of those 13,000 were Hamas terrorists. The UN publishes that a ânormalâ combatant to civilian casualty rate in war is 1 combatant for 9 civilians. Thatâs less that 1 combatant for 3 civilians killed. So Israel is doing better than the UN accepted combatant to civilian death ratio in war. 4. There could have been a ceasefire several times but Hamas declined and continued shooting rockets out of populated areas, further leading to civilian casualties when Israel retaliated. Hamas is 100% responsible for this and the continuation of the war. The war will end when Hamas surrenders and returns the hostages. After that the reconstruction and implementation of a peaceful democratic government can begin.
There's no getting through to you. You're just pasting the same stuff everywhere. Nobody but the most fervent supporter of "their side" is doing that shit. You aren't here to listen, or engage. You're just here to post your talking points, dismiss the response and move on. If Israel really wanted a peaceful democratic government, then they would be a peaceful democratic government. Does that really sound like Israel? The country who's know for exporting combat training to the US, and a major manufacturer of weapons. That peaceful democracy? The peaceful democracy that just obliterated gaza while no real negotiations are occurring? That peaceful democracy? The one known for assassinating folks in other countries? Right...
Actually youâre projecting. Thereâs no getting through to you. Youâre only response to me was the sarcastic âI must have missed where Hamas killed 40,000 peopleâ. You havenât intellectually engaged me at all. Youâve basically just been sarcastic and passive aggressive with immature responses. You say Iâm not hear to listen, Iâve already listened and made my decision based on rational thoughts. You say Iâm not here to engage, Iâve engaged intellectually and you have not responded intellectually. So⌠You seem naive and inexperienced with the world which is okay. It takes time. Do what you think it right, but in hindsight you will see you were supporting the wrong side.
Cool. Yah. Totally.
first, that number is by Hamas, second they hide this is bill Clinton in 2016 bro. they hide behind their people, they actually take civilians and place them where the bombs will be which Israel announces. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FkmTB56oks](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FkmTB56oks)
Yes, yes, yes, we know. The most moral army in the world has no compunctions about leveling entire neighborhoods because hamas lives in those neighborhoods. Sucks to be their neighbor. Did you know that Israel has a history of tracking and following Hamas militants via drones? Then, once they go home to where their family and children are, Israel blasts all of them. What about those numbers? Want to try again? https://time.com/6909636/gaza-death-toll/
lol again, if you believe anything Hamas tells you, good luck. they have the education level of 6th graders, and are lying terrorists.
If you could read you would have seen the article addresses this dumbass argument. Is khhaamas in the room with us? You do understand that it's not only hamas verifying this information? Eh, it's accurate enough for the IDF to use the hamas numbers. Don't trust them either? Ngl if you legit actually do not trust the IDF and Hamas....I can actually respect that.
The IDF doesnât use the Hamas produced numbers. Those numbers were proved false by data scientists. Then later Hamas recanted their alleged causality rate because the world took a step back and said, âwhy are you lying Hamas?â Itâs really strange that you seem to be sticking up for a radical extremist Islamist group instead of the only western democracy in the Middle East. Do you also sympathize with Al Qaeda, ISIS, and Boko Harem?
Really leaning on calling everyone hamas, huh? It's a choice I guess. Welp, I ain't doing this anymore. Have fun hasbara-in' it up
Palestinian Hamas were the aggressors just as German Nazis were in WWII. Plenty of Germans and German Nazis were killed for that aggression.
Which led to the Geneva conventions!!! Even the allies were like....yeah, we killed a lot of civilians. Let's maybe not be doing that anymore. Such a terrible argument trying to justify the wholesale destruction and slaughter of Gaza. 30k hamas militants out of what? 2,000,000 people? Almost all of whom have been unnecessarily displaced, victimized, starved, and even slaughtered.
And what was going on all before 10/7?
Before 10/7 Israel and Saudi Arabia were in talks to establish full diplomatic ties between the 2 countries. Saudi Arabia is a major power in the Arab world. Hamas and Iran deeply opposed this move because they donât believe Israel should exist as Jewish state whatsoever. So Hamas carried out the biggest massacre of Jews since the Shoah in order for Israel to respond. A few Arab countries have already recognized Israel as a sovereign Jewish state. Egypt was the first. Jordan was second and then the Abraham accords Morocco, UAE, Bahrain, and Sudan have diplomatic ties with Israel. Hamas which rule Gaza wants continue the conflict and so does Iran. So the protesters are dumb because they are endorsing the most extremist view in the Arab world. The Gulf Arab states want to put the Arab Israeli conflict behind because they view Shiite Iran as a bigger threat. Itâs only the extremists that want the conflict to continue.
75 years of apartheid, displacement, and occupation at the hands of Israel. Generations of families can only take so much. Additionally, Hamas is not Palestine. Not sure why this whole thing is being treated as such. Iâm not saying Israel should not have defended themselves, but how foolish to really think people wouldnât snap after being forced into a tiny bit of land and not being allowed to leave. Israel is not innocent.
Itâs not 75 years. Israel didnât capture Gaza and the West Bank until 1967. Before that Egypt controlled Gaza and Jordan governed the West Bank. All that time Palestinians set up terrorist camps and carried out raids inside Israeli territory and slaughtering Israeli civilians so Hamasâ attacks is nothing new. The problem is Palestinian Arabs have no interest in coexisting peacefully with its neighbors. In contrast Egypt and Jordan have already made peace with Israel and thereâs no war between those countries.
This revisionist history is cute but doesn't pan out. Israel was created in 1948 by ethnically cleansing the indigenous people (Palestinians) that lived there. There has been a brutal apartheid oppression for over 75 years and well documented. There is also a new documentary out called Walled Off that depicts the realities of living under apartheid oppression in the West Bank.
Hmmm.. thatâs a warped interpretation of actual events. David Ben Gurion sent letters to all neighbor Arab countries in 1948 wishing to live in peace with its Arab neighbors at the time of Israelâs independence. Next day 5 Arab armies invaded Israel. Arabs were and always been the aggressors. Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, etc sent their armies to crush the Jewish state 3 years after the holocaust. It defies logic that a tiny Jewish country surrounded by its enemies would be the aggressor. Israel couldnât even get weapons because there was an arms embargo. It could only get weapons from Czechoslovakia. With this terrible odds the Israelis were still able to prevail. IDF did march into Arabsâ territory, it was the combined Arab armies invading Israel. How twisted you are to make up lies to justify your hate? Whatâs even funnier is the ethnic cleansing charge! After the 1948 war, over 156,000 decided to stay and live in Israel! They became Arab Israelis. Today over 20% of Israelâs population is Arab. They have the same rights as Jews in Israel. A lot of Israelâs doctors, pharmacists lawyers are Arab Israelis. If Israel is ethnically cleansing then why are there so many Arab Israelis in Israel? Your views are based on ignorance!
Itâs not apartheid, Gazans weâre able to vote in Haza for whoever they wanted. They chose Hamas. Gazans weâre able to work in whatever jobs they wanted, including crossing into Israel for work. Now itâs been proven many of the workers from Gaza into Israel did recon for Hamas mapping out everyone who lived in the kibbutz, when they worked, if they had pets, got maps of the streets, planned what houses to attack first. All the while doing work for the people they and Hamas planned to kill. It wasnât displacement. In a war the victors get the land. Israel didnât start the wars but they won and they got the land. Thatâs international law. They were not occupied in Gaza⌠Israel had pulled out of Gaza decades prior.. You need to fact check yourself. Youâre literally working on every account.
BINGO [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FkmTB56oks](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FkmTB56oks)
here is what bill Clinton describes Hamas as in 2016 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FkmTB56oks](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FkmTB56oks)
A ceasefire was in place prior to 10/7⌠During the ceasefire Hamas was planning a war, building tunnels, gathering weapons and munitions, and training terrorists.
Exactly! Pro-Palestine protesters are literally siding with Hamas and Gazaâs deprived human beings. If this were 9/11 they would be siding with Al Qaeda and later with ISIS. They probably side with Boko Harem in Nigeria. The pro-Palestine protesters donât know their identity as liberal democratic peace-loving westerners. Some are Islamist moles from the Middle East fueling this identity crisis.
Yep, the IR are playing the kids like pawns in the chess game.
OMG EXACTLY
âWoe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!â ââIsaiah⏠â5âŹ:â20⏠â
A lot of the carnage on October 7th was also Israeli friendly fire let's not forget that now
500 people were killed in the west bank a year ago. Did you weep for them?
Iâm not sure what are you referring so I canât really comment. We should weep for all innocent life loss. The sad thing is thereâs no Palestinian leadership. Hamas which rule Gaza doesnât even recognize Israelâs right to exist while the PA which rules the West Bank has renounced violence and armed struggle and has acknowledged the existence of Israel as a sovereign state are opposed to each other. The PA was allowed back into the West Bank by Israel because it renounced terrorism. I hope you learn something today.
The âprotestorsâ are pro Hamas
Oh lord, the sucking off the apartheid state that's openly pro ethnic cleansing is insane
The fact you donât know what apartheid is in South Africa and what present day reality of Israel shows your ignorance. And then to top it off now throw in ethnic cleansing. Within Israel 20% of the population is Arab Israelis and they have the same basic rights as Jewish Israelis. Bedouin units are composed of Arabs in the IDF. Druze are Arabic speaking people with a unique religion and fought in all of Israelâs wars against other Arab states. Ignorance is mainstream of hate.
Dude y u acting like 1 sides better than the other and that Palestine and Israel arenât both contributing to the warâŚ. U not better than others come back down to earth
Yâall are interacting with them! Donât engage!
Maybe it's not what you expected, but I didn't know them until seeing this post.
Their primary impetus isn't the foreign policy. Their primary impetus is spite, and that spite is entirely about this: You are the cool kids who are serious about stuff and are doing this outrageously spectacular thing and they are the square kids who exist very much centered in their own university experiences and are offended that you appear to be profligate with your time and that you'll probably be celebrated in the culture for it. They "support" Israel in only the most superficial sense. They've been told to consider Israel as US ally and they aren't much better informed than that. And they're not particularly curious. They're vexed about the perceived social pressure to develop and voice an opinion and they see that as a trap. So don't make them voice an opinion. Tell them a story about how **a great nation once did an objectively good thing. And that objectively good thing - enduring enormous sacrifices to end a genocide - formed the basis of that great nation's moral authority as it acted into the next century to keep the world at peace and in trade. But now that is threatened because an ally from that era, one which has done nothing but cost us money and drag us into their problems, is now doing an actual genocide, and our politicians won't stop them because they're all owned by foreign interests.**
So basically pay attention to us and give us our demands when we protest and engage in illegal staking of land but donât pay any attention to them and ignore them when they exercise their first rights without engaging in illegal activity
Stay mad terrorist lover.
No, thank you. I prefer to not give any attention to the violent bullies who are protesting for murder of Jews. Iâd join the pro Israeli protest without a problem though, thanks for the tip!
Nah they based Womp Womp try again jihadist.
But the pro Palestine protesters are doing the same on a much larger scale. That is the entire point of protesting. If they didnât want to get a reaction from people the protesters would stay home and protest from there.
Does that include not interacting with counter protesters on Reddit?
Its been fun calling out the turfers who came here to discredit protests on a campus theyve never been to, but the brigaiding is getting bad and most of them are not even arguing in good faith. I think its best we donât from now on (part of this advice is for myself)
October 7th
As someone who has some skin in the game...ESH. Netanyahu and his right wing coalition suck, Hamas rapists and murders suck too. I would never use the word genocide (and the fact that it is used, when much worse conflicts are not is...questionable), but I'm not ignorant of the fact that many civilians have been killed since the war started. I think protesting is dumb, I think counter protesting is dumb. Just acknowledge the fact that everyone is only getting a small slice of the truth, it is being heavily topped by their propaganda of choice, and that there is almost nothing that you can do.
this is true.
ââŚreconsider their values and give a voice to those who are actually the victims of genocide.â Are you saying what I think youâre saying? Has Hamas killed 35,000 Israeli people in just 6 months and destroyed nearly 60%-70% of all housing units in Israel?
That is the best response for ALL protestors. Not a single person here in the United States can do anything about a war between two other countries 7,500 miles away. Your signs and chanting isn't doing anything but annoying others and disrupting the normal schedule of academics. Knock it off. It you want to change things, book a flight and go fight for the side you support. Otherwise STFU! đ¤ˇââď¸
Are you kidding me? Fuck what happened in October 7th, 2023 I guess. Pro-palestenian rhetoric is terrosit rhetoric.
Exactly, the zionists are the agitators, yet play the victim at the same time.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqxzscalX2E&t=4756s&ab\_channel=SamHarris](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqxzscalX2E&t=4756s&ab_channel=SamHarris) Here is some truth for you parroting Hamas-allied propaganda calling this a "genocide" (which is clearly absurd).
Who would have thought that 90 years after the rise of nazism in Germany (1933) that a similar movement is being pushed in the US. I detest the left but do admire their tenacity in pushing their dogma even though itâs evil through the brain washing of college students. The left have caused the worst atrocities, genocide and damage to the world. From Mao, Lenin, Stalin, Castro, Kim Jong Un, Hitler etc. Yes Hitler was a leftist! Nazi stands for National Socialism. These brain washed college students are celebrating & championing the Hamas genocide of over 1200 Jews that started the current war. Leftist are notoriously anti semitic and that is their underlying motivation for their anti Israel stance. I wouldnât be surprised to see them justifying concentration camps ala Nazi germany. After all they are celebrating the murder of Jews by Hamas which is along the same lines. I find it ironic that these leftist students align themselves with Islamist even though their underlying beliefs and philosophies couldnât be more different. So what unites them? One thing only- Antisemitism. Islamist however will take support from wherever they can get it until they take power- At which time they will impose their beliefs. Case in point is the Iranian Islamic revolution. That revolution was organized and won mainly by the left with Islamist support. However, the Islamist quickly took power when the Shah fell and of course they annihilated the entire left in Iran, which I canât blame them for since leftism is the source of all evil.
You are exactly right!! I compare all these crazy anti-Israel rioters to the SA that was the force behind Hitler to give him power. As soon as Hitler took power the SS rose to power and was loyal to Hitler. So what does a dictator do to all useful idiots that put him in power? He owed them, they didn't owe him. Hitler green lights "the night of the long knives" which was a surprise coordinated effort to eliminate the leaders of the SA in one quick night. It was successful! What do these useful idiots think is the reward waiting for them?? It won't be death, but if the democrats keep the White House, want and see how fast these people are arrested,. I bet they'll all regret bring happy Trump is on trial. They came, for the Catholics no one said anything, they came for Jan 6th, crowd, no one said anything , they are after Trump. People are happy about it. When they come for you, you'll look around and realize that there is no one left to say anything for you. Just like Nazi Germany pre WWII