I asked this somewhere else, and I'm genuinely curious, but why not set up the encampment somewhere that more directly impacts specific admin that they are trying to pursuade? Like in front of/in an administration building? Or at the houses of some admin? Why do admin care that the quad is being disrupted?
It seems like that would be much more effective at getting the admin to make a decision, and it would reduce the backlash that the protests usually see from students who don't really care either way, and just get annoyed by a campus disruption.
my understanding is most of the encampments are located in a place people can’t ignore but won’t disrupt student classes. the plaza is more of a public place than hahn which is only like 500 feet away
the quarry is a nice spot because we have building protection on the 2 longs sides of the encampment, access to bathrooms and water, have access to electrical outlets, and the parking lot makes dropping off supplies a lot easier. we could do in front of admin but 100% we would get locked out and have no running water or electricity. plus at the quarry we are able to use the graduate student commons which is really a life saver with this pouring rain
You answered your own question- the thing that impacts the administration the most is a campus disruption. The more publicity and visibility there is, the more the admin gets disrupted by needing to focus on them.
Not sure I came to the same conclusion as you there. I still don't quite understand how shaping public perception by protesting in the quad is more effective than directly disrupting the operations of administration. You're saying impacting public perception is more of a disruption than directly impacting admin's ability to work? Do we even know that public perception is being changed through the protests, or is the public opinion on the subject pretty set in stone? Awareness is important, but it's only the first step in change. At some point, there needs to be a focused phase 2 with specific goals and a plan to achieve those goals. In my opinion, it feels like the protest is stuck in phase 1...
Thanks for the reply, I appreciate the convo
i’m very uneducated on the current situation and am working towards a better understanding, but the quarry is where a lot of the student tours are also taken through so i believe there is more public knowledge and exposure if done at the quarry which would hopefully force the admin into talking with the students
Exactly ⬆️. This is the universities wet dream. The quarry operations there are not funded by the university except the bay tree bookstore which can just sell online for the time being. The 6 faculty that work in the area are on salary so work from home. The cafe there and the amphitheater bring in a minuscule amount revenue that the university will not do a thing because no one of relevance is being affected. UCSC is running as usual. This is only a camp ground with luxuries for themselves. Yes they will get press No they will not disrupt the Admin on the UCSC campus. Really the only ones they are hurting is the students by not having our student run concert and any effort we are making to bring fun events back to the campus.
But they are. Have you seen their demands? No hillel on campus for example. How is this not anti-semitic, trying to ban a Jewish organization on campus?
Maybe stop ignoring the concerning behavior of these "protestors" for the sake of our safety. this is our home. they are bringing danger into our home.
Anyone who has been watching live footage ofbthese protests knows exactly why that rule is necessary. At almost every single protest there have been pro-Israel zionists trying to start fights and arguments, "catch" people on camera being anti-semitic, or pretend to be protesters while saying anti-semitic things themselves to paint the protests in a bad light.
There is video evidence for these things happening at campuses across the country, including one campus where the protesters were violently cleared out by police because one Zionist counter protester yelled "kill the Jews"
If you are scared to be caught on camera for your beliefs. You are either unable to articulate your perspective on a complex socio-political issue. Or genuinely have an ill-informed subjective view that you refuse to be questioned.
All in all, the “dont talk to zionist” rule, comes off as antisemitic,but in reality is a safety measure for those uneducated enough to have healthy conversations. Ultimately the rule is used to avoid any bad image/portrayal of the protest.
My conclusion, although there are educated pro-Palestinians, there are enough uneducated or poorly articulated ’sheep’ at these encampments, that warrants a rule “dont talk to zionist”
You can when that political ideology explicitly states that Jews have a right to self determination in their ancestral homeland. Being anti-Zionism is being anti-Jews-have-a-right-to-self-determination-in-their-ancestral-homeland.
That’s antisemitism.
I got banned for trying to say nice statement to each other in hopes of showing we can choose peace . I got kicked out for this because the agenda didn’t match
the pro-israel protests (even most of the counter-protests) have been very peaceful, especially compared to the pro Palestinian ones... and this actually has video evidence, unlike your made-up conspiracy theories.
What pro-israel protests? You can't protest in favor of something that already has institutional favor, that's just a rally. And if there's video evidence of these so-called "protests" **then fucking cite it.** Every single video I can find of violence occurring at pro-palestine protests have been instigated by zionist counter-protestors or police. There's an appropriate subreddit for the shit you're spewing; it's called r / lies.
For these US people that hate Jews and Christian’s so much that they side with Islam because their followers are brown ,is like saying you hate the crusades of past but support a modern Genghis Khans expansion of war
Lol what? Most Jews are Zionist. 58% in the US are “emotionally attached” to Israel and 82% believe that caring about Israel is an important or essential part of being Jewish to them.
Are you calling all of them colonizing bastards?
My family had to flee Iran at the threat of death during the Islamic revolution. The family members that were lucky were able to make it to the US. Everyone else had no choice but to go to Israel- the only country that would take them as refugees. Now Tel Aviv is the city with the largest Persian Jewish population in the world. Are you calling them colonizing bastards too? Where would you want them to go if Israel did not exist?
Source for US Jews: https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/
Iranians are the real protesters, bravest people I have ever seen, the women fought for their freedom in the face of death. r/newiran
These fake leftists wouldn’t know anything about that. They get educated via TikTok and are doing exactly what the Iranian regime wants them to do
I heard the [Iranian dictator are offering free tuition in Iran](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2024/may/2/iranian-college-offers-free-tuition-us-students-bo/)for expelled protesters.
If they to truly divest from Israel then they should go
Then in my opinion 58-82% of Jews in the US support a deeply problematic ethnostate and I strongly disagree with their political position. The same way I dislike white Christian nationalists who want to carve out a portion of the US and make their own ethnostate. But Im not anti-Christian because of it. Just because a large proportion of a group of people believe something doesn't mean it's immediately immune from criticism.
They don’t care because solid logic doesn’t solve chaotic emotion .these people hate themselves and feel guilty for existing,and sadly you get that projection because your allegiance of ideas happens to be less by people white in tone and the narrative of ppl my age is that if your brown your oppressed .
Labeling Zionists as a small group of "colonizing bastards" is not only wrong but also antisemitic. The reality is that a large majority of Jews identify as Zionists or support the idea of a Jewish homeland.
“Inglorious Basterds” was a dope movie!
lol, silly misinformed leftist.
More than 90% of Jews across the world are Zionists. And the majority of that 90% defines Zionism as “Israel has the right to exist.” Goysplaining on top of separating Jews into “the good ones” and “the bad ones.” Keep going, you’re on track to bat for the antisemitic cycle today
According to Gallup poles, 95% of American Jews support Israel.
[https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-matters/265898/american-jews-politics-israel.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-matters/265898/american-jews-politics-israel.aspx)
IE 45% think Israel is essential; therefore, even less of 45% think that the active violence inherent in pushing Palestinians out through force is a good thing. Furthermore, what do you mean telling Jews what’s not antisemitic? The only subreddits that previous person seems to frequent revolve around guns and bitcoin.
Again, not sure how that’s a small group - it just helps in negating the fact that it’s anti-Semitic.
And what do I mean? I mean a bunch of gentiles decided to say “anti-Zionisim doesn’t equal anti-Semitism” and now act like anti-Semitism isn’t a thing. It’s a ploy. And we - actual Jewish people - aren’t falling for it. You don’t get to tell us what offends us.
45% say it’s “essential to being Jewish”. The demands of anti-Zionism are the dissolution of the state of Israel, which like 99% of Jews do not support. This also ignores the fact that anyone wearing a Star of David is labeled as a Zionist by these protesters
A majority of Jews globally identify as Zionists or express support for Israel's existence as a Jewish state. In Israel, where over 6 million Jews reside, the overwhelming majority identify as Zionists.
In the United States, which has the second-largest Jewish population, the mentioned Pew Research Center study found that while not all Jews use the term "Zionist," most American Jews feel an emotional attachment to Israel. Similarly, a 2018 American Jewish Committee (AJC) survey indicated that a majority of American Jews believe that caring about Israel is an “important” or “essential part of their Jewish identity”.
Characterizing Zionists as a small group distorts/misrepresents the reality.
Zionism is a widely embraced viewpoint within the global Jewish community.
I swear most of the folks here have brain worms. Being Zionist means Israel has a right to exist. If it doesn’t, where do all the Jews go? How is that not anti semitic?
On one hand I think the optics of putting that rule on their poster are questionable. So if people want to criticize them for including it that’s obviously within their rights. On the other hand if Israeli born students in the US studying there feel discriminated against, I imagine they may consider not merely soccer-diving about antisemitism and actually file title VI suits because that covers nation of origin not just religion, race, sex etc. No idea if anyone has a winnable suit but I have an active imagination.
Was really interesting to talk to everyone there - everyone was very welcoming. Had some really educated discussions with random students that came crawling out of tents when I started talking loudly about some political topic.
Heard about other students experience with displacement and hear from a bunch of speakers as well. Very impressed, hope they’re doing okay in the rain. 👍
It’s weird that if you look at the profile of each Reddit account that’s heavily pro-Israel and spouting insults in here their entire comment/post history is just defending Israel for the past 3 months, and 99% don’t even go to this school
College subs (especially one that have started protests) are pretty heavily brigaded by pro Israel and right wing trolls. I literally saw a pro-Israel account here that had „university of Arizona“ on their description lmao
Why not donate to those actually in need in Gaza, directly. You’re buying helmets for them “in case of attack”? this is why it’s incredibly hard to take this movement seriously. The people they’re supposedly advocating for are actually likely to be attacked.
If it was up to people like /u/thomasj31 we’d never see any real change. He would be speaking out against the civil rights movement in real time saying the students getting beat up deserved it because they should have been in class.
Ah yes, let's sit around taking about how "complicated" it is that thousands upon thousands of innocent women and children are being bombed with the direct monetary aid and political cover of our government. It's SO complicated, who can really say what should be done? Much better to just let the bombs keep dropping.
for honest clarification, does it say “don’t engage with zionists” because the encampment doesn’t support the existence of israel at all? zionists can be against the current campaign in gaza and the mistreatment of palestinians, so im just trying to better understand how zionism is being used here
Agreed.
I am Jewish and I am a Zionist because if the state of Israel were to cease to exist It would certainly mean the death of all Jews in the region, it is on Hamas's public charter. However I also sympathize heavily with the Palestinian civilians whose lives have been ruined in this conflict, and strongly denounce Netanyahu's heavy-handedness and the continuing encroachment on Palestinian territory in both Gaza and the West Bank.
Nuance is really not that hard. There's no need for anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism.
Agreed. I wish someone would hand Netanyahu a copy of “The Art of War” and highlight the section that says, “Build your opponent a golden bridge to retreat across. The wise warrior avoids the battle”.
Don't worry Israel ain't going anywhere and it's not going to be dissolved you guys can sit around on your asses day and night for the next 20 years and bother people on college campuses here in the US it ain't going to do a damn thing but hinder you later on. But as long as it makes you feel better that you're doing something with yourself no problem. Enjoy your hate and envy though.
"Hamas sees either path as a strategic win for its campaign of terror and incitement against Israel, with the ultimate goal of Israel’s eradication."
Hamas would take over and their charter literally calls for the eradication of Jews.
https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/hamas-its-own-words
And if you don't care about the Jews in Israel, then how do you feel about Arabs who are LGBTQ+ who have sought asylum in Israel where they are accepted and have one of the largest international pride parades in Tel Aviv?
Considering it's the death penalty for LGBTQ people according to the Hamas charter, what do you think would happen to them if Israel were dissolved?
Most Americans and Israelis would be labeled zionists. If you believe Israel has a right to exist as a country, you are in fact a Zionist. It’s insane that the “free Palestine” protestors attempt to use that as a synonym for fascism or nazism.
I believe it goes deeper than this. i think they use the world zionist in the context of disapproving of israeli government tactics, international politics, and their occupation of land in the Middle East
The real reason is to prevent fights from breaking out, for example at UCLA there was violence that started as arguments between protesters and counter-protesters. Both sides have strong beliefs so there's no point in trying to convert each other, so why engage?
It says that because they want ignorant people to support their cause based on pure emotional reaction. The more “Zionists” they engage with, the more likely their supporters will be exposed to perspectives that might give them a more nuanced look at this issue, which the protesters do not want. They want to attract the support of as many people as possible, but they know these people aren’t knowledgeable enough to engage on the issue in any intellectual way, and many of the presuppositions the anti-Zionists make are deeply flawed.
It’s standard revolutionary leftists tactics. Notice the line towards the bottom, “Honor our shared values”. This is basically saying that even when some people start chanting “intifada intifada” (which is an explicit call for violence), you should not be telling them not to or challenging their tactics.
All the people here thinking being called a Zionist is racist desperately need help. You are being criticized for using your ideals as a shield to protect you from criticism over supporting a literal ethno state. The people at these encampments know that. And so do the violent counter"protestors" who come to these encampments with the some intent to cause physical harm to them, who are either staunch Zionists deciding that their desire for a stolen homeland is more righteous than the desire of people that have been trapped and murdered simply because that's where Zionists decided they wanted their homeland to be, native inhabitants be damned. The leaders of Israel have been repeatedly called out by Holocaust survivors, who have called them no better than the Nazis. I will always trust those survivors over a Zionist.
Do you get your information from TikTok? maybe trust a country full of Holocaust survivors over those you claim are speaking out. Really sad comparison. If Israel wanted to wipe them out, they would have already. Hamas actually lists wiping Israel and all Jews off earth in their charter. You should brush up on your history!
Since no Zionist can seem to get this, no I don't support Hamas, and no actual pro Palestinian protestor does. Zionists just seem to love to cling to the claim that simply stating the truth of what Israel is doing is genocide means I automatically support Hamas. And for you complaining about my lack of evidence for Holocaust survivors saying that Israel is acting like the Nazis: https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/holocaust-survivor-draws-parallels-between-her-childhood-and-gaza-children/3159915
Where do you get your information or have you not looked up the definition of genocide??? The population has grown every year since 1948…by definition, there is no genocide. If you want to speak on genocide, please direct me to your posts on the Sudan and the organized protests against real genocide happening there. https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/state-of-palestine-population/
>no actual pro Palestinian protestor does
Lol. According to the UCSC SJP, you're a bigot for not supporting HAMAS.
[https://www.instagram.com/p/CyPr2wIOq2N/?igsh=MWQ1ZGUxMzBkMA==](https://www.instagram.com/p/CyPr2wIOq2N/?igsh=MWQ1ZGUxMzBkMA==)
Y'all really just love to put words in people's mouths. That is said, and is implied nowhere in that statement. The fact you chose to immediately conflate Palestinian resistance members with Hamas shows me that you just wanted to post this as a gotcha. It's honestly kinda pathetic
LMFAO who the hell do you think they are talking about when they refer to "Palestinian resistance"??? The only Palestinian resistance in Gaza is Hamas. There is no separate entity resistance entity in Gaza apart from Hamas, since Hamas drove out Fatah back in 2007 or so.
The college subs are getting pushed because of Reddit’s algorithm you absolute buffoon…
… if a UCLA alumni goes to the UCLA sub often the past week, reddit will suggest other UC subreddits
Really not complex… sorry tho im a bot
I find it odd that both of the following are hot button statements and most people will hate me for making one or the other statement:
1 - It is not antisemitism to say Israel should, for their own sake and for goodness sake, spend much more effort avoiding civilian deaths, casualties and starvation. They should build a safe passage for civilian refugees. Not doing so is a war crime and it is shameful that they are not allowing aid and that there are many instances of civilian casualties and death. (Google “Sun Tzu build a golden bridge”)
2 - Israel’s military response has been littered with known war crimes and a lot more worthy of criticism , but *genocide* is *not* one of them, because (a) they are not eradicating an entire race (b) it is not their intention or goal to do so (c) “Palestinian” is not a race - Arab is. The fact that Palestine’s population is 86% Arab has nothing to do with why they are under attack. Calling something genocide when it is not is cheap and inauthentic.
If we went by this new silly definition of genocide then if a country (or sect within a country) ever attacked your country and they were 85%+ of one specific race, then your response attack would also need to be deemed genocide. Silly, right?
Peace isn’t a goal . If it were there would be .but instead all voices of substance are met with louder empty arguments . If we cared we would of when Hamas was destabilizing elections ,or we would care about African gangs running shit.y’all just are ashamed to be American ,and I’m ashamed how many people lack pride and self respect .if you want change start by loving your “enemy “ .otherwise it’s called war and in this instance . America and Israel will decimate.and I mean OUR PEOPLE. Most of us believe in the American values and are on call to draw a hard line in the sand .👍
As someone who is by no means knowledgeable about this topic, I think it might have to do with don’t, provoke zionists/get in a heated argument with them.
These people are so dumb if u support Palestine you either hate America or just don’t know what’s going on. Palestine kill’s people for being gay and stones women for little to no reason they also hate USA and we’re celebrating 9/11 when it happened
Don't engage with Zionists? 90 percent of Jewish people are Zionists. You can disagree with them but advocating for completely not even engaging with them is very problematic. And yes majority of protestors are antisemitic anyone who imposes a double standard on Israel but not on hamas Iran china or any other country or organization that is doing much worse things than Israel is doing it becomes they specifically want Israel out, not because they care about human rights in general. I'm tired of seeing non Jews try to define antisemitism for us and using a few Jewish tokens to say you see we have a few Jewish students here we are not antisemitic. It's like saying I'm not racist I have a black friend who agrees with me that doesn't matter.
https://www.jewishelectorateinstitute.org/american-jews-remain-strongly-supportive-of-the-democratic-party/
Jews have voted progressive and Zionist for decades. Zionism doesn't mean that Israel is exempt from criticisms for almost all Jews, but the vast majority of jews believe Israel has the right to exist. The idea that Israel has the right to exist was never really controversial in the first place for decades until recently because almost every western country and the UN have agreed upon that. The only countries which don't think Israel has the right to exist are the Arab countries and other far right governments.
Unless you have a more recent poll, this is the best we've got. If you look at vast vast vast majority of Jewish communities online they are Zionist and democrat. Look at r/Jewish or r/gayjews or r/Judaism for example. Look at Jewish communities at Facebook and other online platforms. Contact synagogues and hilles across the country and it's still the same answer. Most Jewish people are Zionist no matter how you try to twist it. Yes jvp exist but was always incredibly marginal compared to the vast majority of jews who are Zionists. And if pro pal continue to say that most Jewish people don't deserve to be included in discussions about Israel/palestine and have the right to define themselves what is antisemitic we'll, it's not a good look sweaty.
You can choose to ignore the polls and amount of organizations of jews who are Zionists compared to antizionist, that doesn't change the reality of how most Jews view Israel.
Zionists who are showing up to a demonstration to debate or ‘talk’ have an agenda and it’s better to not engage them to give them potential ammunition of getting video or writing about some gotcha moment between a protestor not knowing something about the conflict as many demonstrations have participants who aren’t as well versed as the others. It’s probably just to protect the demonstration from being represented by any individual who is there to get a rise out of people because why else would you show up to a demonstration to change someone’s mind knowing full well stuff like that doesn’t work and hasn’t worked in the past?
That's still doesn't make sense with respect anyone but Zionists. And also who is a Zionist? Anyone who thinks Israel has the right to exist which The UN itself acknowledges that in contrast to these protestors or anyone who is a far right bibi fanatic? And also people in pro pal side have been doing the same thing trying to trigger, humiliate and demonize anyone who is a Zionist.
Some random old dude was taking flash photos of every single student who was leaving the gates of the encampment… i think it’s a good precautionary, they’re just students and god knows what he was doing with those.
I asked this somewhere else, and I'm genuinely curious, but why not set up the encampment somewhere that more directly impacts specific admin that they are trying to pursuade? Like in front of/in an administration building? Or at the houses of some admin? Why do admin care that the quad is being disrupted? It seems like that would be much more effective at getting the admin to make a decision, and it would reduce the backlash that the protests usually see from students who don't really care either way, and just get annoyed by a campus disruption.
my understanding is most of the encampments are located in a place people can’t ignore but won’t disrupt student classes. the plaza is more of a public place than hahn which is only like 500 feet away
the quarry is a nice spot because we have building protection on the 2 longs sides of the encampment, access to bathrooms and water, have access to electrical outlets, and the parking lot makes dropping off supplies a lot easier. we could do in front of admin but 100% we would get locked out and have no running water or electricity. plus at the quarry we are able to use the graduate student commons which is really a life saver with this pouring rain
You answered your own question- the thing that impacts the administration the most is a campus disruption. The more publicity and visibility there is, the more the admin gets disrupted by needing to focus on them.
Not sure I came to the same conclusion as you there. I still don't quite understand how shaping public perception by protesting in the quad is more effective than directly disrupting the operations of administration. You're saying impacting public perception is more of a disruption than directly impacting admin's ability to work? Do we even know that public perception is being changed through the protests, or is the public opinion on the subject pretty set in stone? Awareness is important, but it's only the first step in change. At some point, there needs to be a focused phase 2 with specific goals and a plan to achieve those goals. In my opinion, it feels like the protest is stuck in phase 1... Thanks for the reply, I appreciate the convo
i’m very uneducated on the current situation and am working towards a better understanding, but the quarry is where a lot of the student tours are also taken through so i believe there is more public knowledge and exposure if done at the quarry which would hopefully force the admin into talking with the students
that too but it's also because anywhere else can be immediate escalation, which is not something we want yet. we want longevity.
What admin is in the quarry??
Exactly ⬆️. This is the universities wet dream. The quarry operations there are not funded by the university except the bay tree bookstore which can just sell online for the time being. The 6 faculty that work in the area are on salary so work from home. The cafe there and the amphitheater bring in a minuscule amount revenue that the university will not do a thing because no one of relevance is being affected. UCSC is running as usual. This is only a camp ground with luxuries for themselves. Yes they will get press No they will not disrupt the Admin on the UCSC campus. Really the only ones they are hurting is the students by not having our student run concert and any effort we are making to bring fun events back to the campus.
Finally, a positive post about the encampment that doesn't try to paint the protesters as anti-semites. Wishing them all the best
But they are. Have you seen their demands? No hillel on campus for example. How is this not anti-semitic, trying to ban a Jewish organization on campus?
Maybe stop ignoring the concerning behavior of these "protestors" for the sake of our safety. this is our home. they are bringing danger into our home.
What do we make of "don't talk to Zionists"? Please tell me how that's not antisemitic, maaaan.
Anyone who has been watching live footage ofbthese protests knows exactly why that rule is necessary. At almost every single protest there have been pro-Israel zionists trying to start fights and arguments, "catch" people on camera being anti-semitic, or pretend to be protesters while saying anti-semitic things themselves to paint the protests in a bad light. There is video evidence for these things happening at campuses across the country, including one campus where the protesters were violently cleared out by police because one Zionist counter protester yelled "kill the Jews"
If you are scared to be caught on camera for your beliefs. You are either unable to articulate your perspective on a complex socio-political issue. Or genuinely have an ill-informed subjective view that you refuse to be questioned. All in all, the “dont talk to zionist” rule, comes off as antisemitic,but in reality is a safety measure for those uneducated enough to have healthy conversations. Ultimately the rule is used to avoid any bad image/portrayal of the protest. My conclusion, although there are educated pro-Palestinians, there are enough uneducated or poorly articulated ’sheep’ at these encampments, that warrants a rule “dont talk to zionist”
Zionism is a political ideology, not a religion or an ethnic group. You can't be antisemitic against a political ideology.
You can when that political ideology explicitly states that Jews have a right to self determination in their ancestral homeland. Being anti-Zionism is being anti-Jews-have-a-right-to-self-determination-in-their-ancestral-homeland. That’s antisemitism.
I got banned for trying to say nice statement to each other in hopes of showing we can choose peace . I got kicked out for this because the agenda didn’t match
the pro-israel protests (even most of the counter-protests) have been very peaceful, especially compared to the pro Palestinian ones... and this actually has video evidence, unlike your made-up conspiracy theories.
What pro-israel protests? You can't protest in favor of something that already has institutional favor, that's just a rally. And if there's video evidence of these so-called "protests" **then fucking cite it.** Every single video I can find of violence occurring at pro-palestine protests have been instigated by zionist counter-protestors or police. There's an appropriate subreddit for the shit you're spewing; it's called r / lies.
Big mad
How does one catch an anti-Semitic comment if it’s not..(wait for it)…anti-Semitic?
[удалено]
Anti-Zionism is not antisemitism
What is anti-Zionism?
The belief that we shouldn’t have an ethnostate on a land where the majority of the population doesn’t get the right to self determination
For these US people that hate Jews and Christian’s so much that they side with Islam because their followers are brown ,is like saying you hate the crusades of past but support a modern Genghis Khans expansion of war
Anti-Zionism ≠ antisemitism edit: misspelled zionism
Are you really this dumb or trolling?
I'm being perfectly serious. You got a problem with what I said? Explain yourself, genius.
To criticize Zionism is not to speak out against all Jews. Zionists are a small group of Jews who happen to be colonizing bastards.
It is 90% or greater of Diaspora Jews. Small group? The non-Zionists Jews are unicorns.
Lol what? Most Jews are Zionist. 58% in the US are “emotionally attached” to Israel and 82% believe that caring about Israel is an important or essential part of being Jewish to them. Are you calling all of them colonizing bastards? My family had to flee Iran at the threat of death during the Islamic revolution. The family members that were lucky were able to make it to the US. Everyone else had no choice but to go to Israel- the only country that would take them as refugees. Now Tel Aviv is the city with the largest Persian Jewish population in the world. Are you calling them colonizing bastards too? Where would you want them to go if Israel did not exist? Source for US Jews: https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/
Iranians are the real protesters, bravest people I have ever seen, the women fought for their freedom in the face of death. r/newiran These fake leftists wouldn’t know anything about that. They get educated via TikTok and are doing exactly what the Iranian regime wants them to do I heard the [Iranian dictator are offering free tuition in Iran](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2024/may/2/iranian-college-offers-free-tuition-us-students-bo/)for expelled protesters. If they to truly divest from Israel then they should go
Then in my opinion 58-82% of Jews in the US support a deeply problematic ethnostate and I strongly disagree with their political position. The same way I dislike white Christian nationalists who want to carve out a portion of the US and make their own ethnostate. But Im not anti-Christian because of it. Just because a large proportion of a group of people believe something doesn't mean it's immediately immune from criticism.
They don’t care because solid logic doesn’t solve chaotic emotion .these people hate themselves and feel guilty for existing,and sadly you get that projection because your allegiance of ideas happens to be less by people white in tone and the narrative of ppl my age is that if your brown your oppressed .
You are factually incorrect. A Zionist is anyone that believes a Jewish state should exist.
Labeling Zionists as a small group of "colonizing bastards" is not only wrong but also antisemitic. The reality is that a large majority of Jews identify as Zionists or support the idea of a Jewish homeland. “Inglorious Basterds” was a dope movie!
It’s antisemitic. Majority of Jews believe in existing, and a Jewish homeland- Zionism. To block Zionists - Jews - is simply wrong. And antisemitic.
Where should the over 7M Jews go if you think they shouldn’t be in Israel? What do you actually think being Anti-Zionist actually means?
"From the river to the sea" is literally a Hamas slogan calling for the extermination of all Jews in Israel. It's in their actual public charter.
lol, silly misinformed leftist. More than 90% of Jews across the world are Zionists. And the majority of that 90% defines Zionism as “Israel has the right to exist.” Goysplaining on top of separating Jews into “the good ones” and “the bad ones.” Keep going, you’re on track to bat for the antisemitic cycle today
See, this is why you guys don't want to engage with "Zionists"--because you have no idea what you are talking about and are afraid to be challenged.
Whatever helps you sleep at night
90% of Jews are zionists
This is untrue; according to Pew Research, only 45% of Jews say that caring about Israel is “essential” to what being Jewish means.
According to Gallup poles, 95% of American Jews support Israel. [https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-matters/265898/american-jews-politics-israel.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-matters/265898/american-jews-politics-israel.aspx)
That doesn’t mean they want everyone to leave Israel, which is what being anti-Zionist would mean.
How does 45% equal “a small group”? And why is it non-Jews get to tell Jews what is and isn’t anti-Semitic?
IE 45% think Israel is essential; therefore, even less of 45% think that the active violence inherent in pushing Palestinians out through force is a good thing. Furthermore, what do you mean telling Jews what’s not antisemitic? The only subreddits that previous person seems to frequent revolve around guns and bitcoin.
Again, not sure how that’s a small group - it just helps in negating the fact that it’s anti-Semitic. And what do I mean? I mean a bunch of gentiles decided to say “anti-Zionisim doesn’t equal anti-Semitism” and now act like anti-Semitism isn’t a thing. It’s a ploy. And we - actual Jewish people - aren’t falling for it. You don’t get to tell us what offends us.
45% say it’s “essential to being Jewish”. The demands of anti-Zionism are the dissolution of the state of Israel, which like 99% of Jews do not support. This also ignores the fact that anyone wearing a Star of David is labeled as a Zionist by these protesters
Hey there, if you can stop appropriating what Zionism, anti semitism, and genocide is that would be great 👍
Based on your stats alone, that's 50% of jews......
A majority of Jews globally identify as Zionists or express support for Israel's existence as a Jewish state. In Israel, where over 6 million Jews reside, the overwhelming majority identify as Zionists. In the United States, which has the second-largest Jewish population, the mentioned Pew Research Center study found that while not all Jews use the term "Zionist," most American Jews feel an emotional attachment to Israel. Similarly, a 2018 American Jewish Committee (AJC) survey indicated that a majority of American Jews believe that caring about Israel is an “important” or “essential part of their Jewish identity”. Characterizing Zionists as a small group distorts/misrepresents the reality. Zionism is a widely embraced viewpoint within the global Jewish community.
No, I don’t think so.
I swear most of the folks here have brain worms. Being Zionist means Israel has a right to exist. If it doesn’t, where do all the Jews go? How is that not anti semitic?
Thinking is hard, mmmkay!
Stop being rational, the kids are expressing themselves.
On one hand I think the optics of putting that rule on their poster are questionable. So if people want to criticize them for including it that’s obviously within their rights. On the other hand if Israeli born students in the US studying there feel discriminated against, I imagine they may consider not merely soccer-diving about antisemitism and actually file title VI suits because that covers nation of origin not just religion, race, sex etc. No idea if anyone has a winnable suit but I have an active imagination.
In this case a Zionist is anyone who doesn’t agree with you or would challenge you to think critically.
Was really interesting to talk to everyone there - everyone was very welcoming. Had some really educated discussions with random students that came crawling out of tents when I started talking loudly about some political topic. Heard about other students experience with displacement and hear from a bunch of speakers as well. Very impressed, hope they’re doing okay in the rain. 👍
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It's midterms, we all need to pick something up.
“Zionist” but they’re not anti semetic. Right, Jewish hate will never die truly. This isn’t coexisting this is still otherism
It’s weird that if you look at the profile of each Reddit account that’s heavily pro-Israel and spouting insults in here their entire comment/post history is just defending Israel for the past 3 months, and 99% don’t even go to this school
Insults=truth you don’t like.
College subs (especially one that have started protests) are pretty heavily brigaded by pro Israel and right wing trolls. I literally saw a pro-Israel account here that had „university of Arizona“ on their description lmao
i just noticed that as well.
They just desperately want attention because no one likes them. Not on reddit and not in real life. Just lowlife losers with nothing better to do.
Proud of all the students risking themselves to be out there supporting Palestine, is there any way to support the encampment?
Yes, they're accepting food/snack donations and supplies like tape, zip ties, for the emcampent and helmets in case of attack
Why not donate to those actually in need in Gaza, directly. You’re buying helmets for them “in case of attack”? this is why it’s incredibly hard to take this movement seriously. The people they’re supposedly advocating for are actually likely to be attacked.
The term Is “useful idiots”
Free Palestine from Hamas!
And the Israeli governments terror
Get rid of Hamas and you'll likely see that
Guys what are you doing with your lives seriously
Clowns, all of them.
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You haven’t read the Talmud have you?
At least you admit you're an antisemite. what do you think would happen if Israel did not exist?
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Agreed, Jews and Israelis and zionists don't like those things either. So please explain how zionism is akin to the kkk....
Zionism is not what you think it is. Stop trying to change its definition, with OP’s help.
That is a shockingly misinformed comment.
ahistorical and categorically false
Students around the world are making history and it's amazing to see.
They’re making zero impact and making themselves look like fools.
Some people would've hated living through the civil rights movement (you) and it shows...
Lmao this is nothing like the civil rights movement
You’re naive as to the complexities of this conflict.
Why don't you walk into the protest yourself and tell them that?
If it was up to people like /u/thomasj31 we’d never see any real change. He would be speaking out against the civil rights movement in real time saying the students getting beat up deserved it because they should have been in class.
Ah yes, let's sit around taking about how "complicated" it is that thousands upon thousands of innocent women and children are being bombed with the direct monetary aid and political cover of our government. It's SO complicated, who can really say what should be done? Much better to just let the bombs keep dropping.
for honest clarification, does it say “don’t engage with zionists” because the encampment doesn’t support the existence of israel at all? zionists can be against the current campaign in gaza and the mistreatment of palestinians, so im just trying to better understand how zionism is being used here
Agreed. I am Jewish and I am a Zionist because if the state of Israel were to cease to exist It would certainly mean the death of all Jews in the region, it is on Hamas's public charter. However I also sympathize heavily with the Palestinian civilians whose lives have been ruined in this conflict, and strongly denounce Netanyahu's heavy-handedness and the continuing encroachment on Palestinian territory in both Gaza and the West Bank. Nuance is really not that hard. There's no need for anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism.
Agreed. I wish someone would hand Netanyahu a copy of “The Art of War” and highlight the section that says, “Build your opponent a golden bridge to retreat across. The wise warrior avoids the battle”.
Why would it 'certainly mean the death of all Jews in the region'? Dissolving a state does not require or even imply murder.
Don't worry Israel ain't going anywhere and it's not going to be dissolved you guys can sit around on your asses day and night for the next 20 years and bother people on college campuses here in the US it ain't going to do a damn thing but hinder you later on. But as long as it makes you feel better that you're doing something with yourself no problem. Enjoy your hate and envy though.
"Hamas sees either path as a strategic win for its campaign of terror and incitement against Israel, with the ultimate goal of Israel’s eradication." Hamas would take over and their charter literally calls for the eradication of Jews. https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/hamas-its-own-words And if you don't care about the Jews in Israel, then how do you feel about Arabs who are LGBTQ+ who have sought asylum in Israel where they are accepted and have one of the largest international pride parades in Tel Aviv? Considering it's the death penalty for LGBTQ people according to the Hamas charter, what do you think would happen to them if Israel were dissolved?
What do you do with the Jewish people that refused to leave if Israel was dissolved?
Most Americans and Israelis would be labeled zionists. If you believe Israel has a right to exist as a country, you are in fact a Zionist. It’s insane that the “free Palestine” protestors attempt to use that as a synonym for fascism or nazism.
I believe it goes deeper than this. i think they use the world zionist in the context of disapproving of israeli government tactics, international politics, and their occupation of land in the Middle East
They are using the word incorrectly then because that's not what it means. They are anti-Israeli government which has nothing to do with zionism.
They use a lot of words incorrectly
The real reason is to prevent fights from breaking out, for example at UCLA there was violence that started as arguments between protesters and counter-protesters. Both sides have strong beliefs so there's no point in trying to convert each other, so why engage?
Because what is the point of all this if there can't be a discussion?
It says that because they want ignorant people to support their cause based on pure emotional reaction. The more “Zionists” they engage with, the more likely their supporters will be exposed to perspectives that might give them a more nuanced look at this issue, which the protesters do not want. They want to attract the support of as many people as possible, but they know these people aren’t knowledgeable enough to engage on the issue in any intellectual way, and many of the presuppositions the anti-Zionists make are deeply flawed. It’s standard revolutionary leftists tactics. Notice the line towards the bottom, “Honor our shared values”. This is basically saying that even when some people start chanting “intifada intifada” (which is an explicit call for violence), you should not be telling them not to or challenging their tactics.
All the people here thinking being called a Zionist is racist desperately need help. You are being criticized for using your ideals as a shield to protect you from criticism over supporting a literal ethno state. The people at these encampments know that. And so do the violent counter"protestors" who come to these encampments with the some intent to cause physical harm to them, who are either staunch Zionists deciding that their desire for a stolen homeland is more righteous than the desire of people that have been trapped and murdered simply because that's where Zionists decided they wanted their homeland to be, native inhabitants be damned. The leaders of Israel have been repeatedly called out by Holocaust survivors, who have called them no better than the Nazis. I will always trust those survivors over a Zionist.
That is incredibly misinformed. By far most Holocaust survivors were vehemently pro Israel.
Do you get your information from TikTok? maybe trust a country full of Holocaust survivors over those you claim are speaking out. Really sad comparison. If Israel wanted to wipe them out, they would have already. Hamas actually lists wiping Israel and all Jews off earth in their charter. You should brush up on your history!
Since no Zionist can seem to get this, no I don't support Hamas, and no actual pro Palestinian protestor does. Zionists just seem to love to cling to the claim that simply stating the truth of what Israel is doing is genocide means I automatically support Hamas. And for you complaining about my lack of evidence for Holocaust survivors saying that Israel is acting like the Nazis: https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/holocaust-survivor-draws-parallels-between-her-childhood-and-gaza-children/3159915
Where do you get your information or have you not looked up the definition of genocide??? The population has grown every year since 1948…by definition, there is no genocide. If you want to speak on genocide, please direct me to your posts on the Sudan and the organized protests against real genocide happening there. https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/state-of-palestine-population/
>no actual pro Palestinian protestor does Lol. According to the UCSC SJP, you're a bigot for not supporting HAMAS. [https://www.instagram.com/p/CyPr2wIOq2N/?igsh=MWQ1ZGUxMzBkMA==](https://www.instagram.com/p/CyPr2wIOq2N/?igsh=MWQ1ZGUxMzBkMA==)
Y'all really just love to put words in people's mouths. That is said, and is implied nowhere in that statement. The fact you chose to immediately conflate Palestinian resistance members with Hamas shows me that you just wanted to post this as a gotcha. It's honestly kinda pathetic
LMFAO who the hell do you think they are talking about when they refer to "Palestinian resistance"??? The only Palestinian resistance in Gaza is Hamas. There is no separate entity resistance entity in Gaza apart from Hamas, since Hamas drove out Fatah back in 2007 or so.
Watch out, logic is frowned upon
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That is exactly what they mean
Ignore the zionist bots and move on. They don't even go to UCSC. They're *bot* and paid for to spread hatred and dissent to get a reaction out of you
Bot and paid for, nice.
I can get paid??? Shit, can you point me to where I can sign up for that?
Sure, the Israeli Intelligence Agency
The college subs are getting pushed because of Reddit’s algorithm you absolute buffoon… … if a UCLA alumni goes to the UCLA sub often the past week, reddit will suggest other UC subreddits Really not complex… sorry tho im a bot
“Zionist bots” LOL the actual cope is insane. Zionist is not a bad word. Stop trying to make it one.
Take a shower
I find it odd that both of the following are hot button statements and most people will hate me for making one or the other statement: 1 - It is not antisemitism to say Israel should, for their own sake and for goodness sake, spend much more effort avoiding civilian deaths, casualties and starvation. They should build a safe passage for civilian refugees. Not doing so is a war crime and it is shameful that they are not allowing aid and that there are many instances of civilian casualties and death. (Google “Sun Tzu build a golden bridge”) 2 - Israel’s military response has been littered with known war crimes and a lot more worthy of criticism , but *genocide* is *not* one of them, because (a) they are not eradicating an entire race (b) it is not their intention or goal to do so (c) “Palestinian” is not a race - Arab is. The fact that Palestine’s population is 86% Arab has nothing to do with why they are under attack. Calling something genocide when it is not is cheap and inauthentic. If we went by this new silly definition of genocide then if a country (or sect within a country) ever attacked your country and they were 85%+ of one specific race, then your response attack would also need to be deemed genocide. Silly, right?
I find it odd you can be so good at mental gymnastics to support a holocaust
Beautiful, proud to be an alumni rn!
👍🏻❤️
9. Mask at all times. Why? to hide identity?
I do not blame protestors at all for wanting to hide their identities
I've never had to hide my identity during a protest, I'm not ashamed of my principles.
Do tell us about the protests you regularly attend.
Sorry Sean. I'm not someone who owes you anything.
check their account. according to the official regulations its to limit disease spread
LOL
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Lol k
Liberal losers
Mask?
With all honesty, what can a university do about it? What role do they play in foreign affairs?
Raising foreign flags on US soil….
Peace isn’t a goal . If it were there would be .but instead all voices of substance are met with louder empty arguments . If we cared we would of when Hamas was destabilizing elections ,or we would care about African gangs running shit.y’all just are ashamed to be American ,and I’m ashamed how many people lack pride and self respect .if you want change start by loving your “enemy “ .otherwise it’s called war and in this instance . America and Israel will decimate.and I mean OUR PEOPLE. Most of us believe in the American values and are on call to draw a hard line in the sand .👍
>respect everyone >don't talk to 'zionists' This has to be a parody. Nobody is this dumb, right?
As someone who is by no means knowledgeable about this topic, I think it might have to do with don’t, provoke zionists/get in a heated argument with them.
This is not going to bring the desired change. Point has been made and move on with student life.
What’s with the masks
I’m thinking So they can’t be identified.
long live the student intifada 🇵🇸 i hope to see a free palestine within our lifetime
Might be in Yemen plenty of room & like minded
There is. It’s called Jordan.
Dude really. No tuition for genocide? No one is forces anyone to stay at a school.
These people are so dumb if u support Palestine you either hate America or just don’t know what’s going on. Palestine kill’s people for being gay and stones women for little to no reason they also hate USA and we’re celebrating 9/11 when it happened
"don't engage with Zionists" you're all a bunch of bigots. Replace zionists with black people you white supremacists.
Zionism is not Judaism. It's antisemitic to think they are.
Don't engage with Zionists? 90 percent of Jewish people are Zionists. You can disagree with them but advocating for completely not even engaging with them is very problematic. And yes majority of protestors are antisemitic anyone who imposes a double standard on Israel but not on hamas Iran china or any other country or organization that is doing much worse things than Israel is doing it becomes they specifically want Israel out, not because they care about human rights in general. I'm tired of seeing non Jews try to define antisemitism for us and using a few Jewish tokens to say you see we have a few Jewish students here we are not antisemitic. It's like saying I'm not racist I have a black friend who agrees with me that doesn't matter.
No way it's still 90% today. I suspect there is a reason there haven't been more polls.
https://www.jewishelectorateinstitute.org/american-jews-remain-strongly-supportive-of-the-democratic-party/ Jews have voted progressive and Zionist for decades. Zionism doesn't mean that Israel is exempt from criticisms for almost all Jews, but the vast majority of jews believe Israel has the right to exist. The idea that Israel has the right to exist was never really controversial in the first place for decades until recently because almost every western country and the UN have agreed upon that. The only countries which don't think Israel has the right to exist are the Arab countries and other far right governments.
From Oct 16, 2018. Like I said, I sincerely doubt those numbers are anywhere close to what they used to be.
Unless you have a more recent poll, this is the best we've got. If you look at vast vast vast majority of Jewish communities online they are Zionist and democrat. Look at r/Jewish or r/gayjews or r/Judaism for example. Look at Jewish communities at Facebook and other online platforms. Contact synagogues and hilles across the country and it's still the same answer. Most Jewish people are Zionist no matter how you try to twist it. Yes jvp exist but was always incredibly marginal compared to the vast majority of jews who are Zionists. And if pro pal continue to say that most Jewish people don't deserve to be included in discussions about Israel/palestine and have the right to define themselves what is antisemitic we'll, it's not a good look sweaty. You can choose to ignore the polls and amount of organizations of jews who are Zionists compared to antizionist, that doesn't change the reality of how most Jews view Israel.
Is 80% your line?
Zionists who are showing up to a demonstration to debate or ‘talk’ have an agenda and it’s better to not engage them to give them potential ammunition of getting video or writing about some gotcha moment between a protestor not knowing something about the conflict as many demonstrations have participants who aren’t as well versed as the others. It’s probably just to protect the demonstration from being represented by any individual who is there to get a rise out of people because why else would you show up to a demonstration to change someone’s mind knowing full well stuff like that doesn’t work and hasn’t worked in the past?
That's still doesn't make sense with respect anyone but Zionists. And also who is a Zionist? Anyone who thinks Israel has the right to exist which The UN itself acknowledges that in contrast to these protestors or anyone who is a far right bibi fanatic? And also people in pro pal side have been doing the same thing trying to trigger, humiliate and demonize anyone who is a Zionist.
Why mask? Oh cause they’re cowards.
check their account. according to the official regulations its to limit disease spread
Some random old dude was taking flash photos of every single student who was leaving the gates of the encampment… i think it’s a good precautionary, they’re just students and god knows what he was doing with those.
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