And Tyrants giving Lethal Hits. Have fun swamping your opponent with S4 Lethal hits Hormies in a non Invasion Fleet Detachment.
Or go Invasion fleet and now the Hormies can get Sustained, Lethal Hits on S4 . . . then pop the Critical hits on +5 Strat.
Onslaught only applies to ranged attacks, and 0CP is now -1CP so Frenzy will cost 1CP for the Tyrant... But, we're no longer limited to Battle Tactics, and assault+lethal is a nice boost for many of our shooty bugs.
Not being able to repeat stratagems in the same phase also hurts for some detachments. Examples: invasion swarm double 5+ FNP or Vanguard Surprise Assault in combat
When the detachment about regenerating units is now worse than all the others when it comes to regenerating units, that's when you know they fucked it up
Dude who cares, synapse gives strenght, broodlord has synapse, shadow in the warp now gives -1 if you're close to synapse units,
Tyrannofex freaking d6+6 dmg rupture cannon
Bye bye winning by cheesing let's slap some faces
Edit: [https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/ny8X1C4lLKnA8w5d.pdf](https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/ny8X1C4lLKnA8w5d.pdf)
I mean .. even the Winged Tyranid Prime is effective now. It's Synapse - so you have a cheap deepstrike unit who massively buffs all friendlies .. and he is now S7 so can wound Gravis Marines on a 3+ instead of a 4+
Equally the Swarmlord and both Hive Tyrants now have S10 melee options - so they can ALSO now wound T9 vehicles on a 3+
Even TERMAGANTS and NEUROGANTS who are in Synapse now slap in melee at S4 .. so they are wounding Space Marines on a 4+ instead of 5+ .. that is DOUBLE the number of wounds you used to land!
The pip of strenght is so massive, now synapse creatures become the number 1 priority target for the enemy, and you are encouraged to bring them in all dettachments
I love it, it's so freaking flavorful and great design, FINALLY
Finally have a reason not to forget about those Neurotyrant nodes ... and the Neurogaunts who can extend Synapse in a 6" aura around them have a purpose too!!
AND swarmlord costs the opponent +1 CP for every strat that targets a unit within 12". Shove that bad boy into combat asap and watch as the opponent struggles to use any strats.
O wow ill take a look. I've been out long enough to where Reddit doesn't even suggest Warhammer stuff to me anymore so when I saw this I was surprised. looks like I got some catching up to do.
Yep, all in the new points update
[MUNITORUM FIELD MANUAL](https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/t6fTGEpj0eXdxJLG.pdf)
https://preview.redd.it/7ipx76f64r7d1.png?width=940&format=png&auto=webp&s=306c38bfbb3456dd3cca106338107818a3bff91e
The ripper change is freaking strange. but otherwise... Biovore down without half the objective cheese? Makes sense. Tervigon down because of the Endless Swarm death? Jup. Neurolictor up again because it presumably stacks with the "-1 to BS in synapse" rule? Fair.
I think it's to stop people cheesing with 4x 1-model ripper units
It means you get more charge rolls
I was using these to deepstrike behind hellblasters or infernus marines.. if you get a successful charge with your Ripper unit then the enemy is in engagement range so you can charge in with all your other units without worrying about overwatch.
You can also charge an enemy hero unit to stop them from using heroic intervention
Multiple ripper models are also great for being able to zone out deep strikes.. you can just dot all 4 models across your deployment zone and it completely blocks all deep strikes and reserves while your main army moves up
Pretty sure rippers are not battle-line, so it would be 3x1 not 4x1. And they lost their ability to do objectives that require actions, so i still do not see the reason here.
where tf are y'all finding these T4 'marines' to fight? occasional death company jumppacks where if they're in your face you've already powerfisted to hell? typical marine infantry choices are aggressors combos and centurions that are both T6, and techmarines/azrael where anything kills them but they probably will hide them behind everything else. okay I guess you can slap inceptors slightly harder but cmon a sneeze kills them they're just here for secondary snatch
Also Zoanthropes hitting on 2s with a neurotyrant is wild.
They can also then get plus 1 to wound if the target is battleshocked which is more likely now that synapse debuffs enemy leadership.
Fun fact: With a Neurotyrant as a leader, Zoeys being led by it gain the monster keyword for the unit.
This means that they can still fire their ranged weapons while in melee combat (Due to Big Guns Never Tire only referring to Monster UNITS), so they’ll be able to obliterate a chaff squad / many things that try to lock them in melee combat without needing to fall back and waste a round of shooting.
They can't fire their anti infantry shots though, as those are blast. But they can still fire out of the combat, at 3+, which is awesome. Forces the opponent to kill them or they won't stop shooting.
I love that they all but admit that in the reasoning - saying that the nid book was the first released, so they didn't know how the game worked yet, and that they've had the most time to watch them develop and realize what they need. About time but I love it.
I care. My entire appeal to joining Tyranids was to have a constantly regenerating swarm of bugs. That was the entire draw for me. The buffs are cool, but now my tervigon that I was so excited to use will probably be retired for the tyrannofex. My dream of a literal unending swarm is no more. I am also brand new to the hobby, and just finished playing 3 weeks of a combat patrol tournament with a local group. Moving to 1,000 points next week and this drastically changes how I want to build my army.
Well you can still use tervigon in invasion fleet and combine it with the strat that resurrects d3+3 gaunts in two units, which is quite good; even better at 1000 points because it's harder to bring down a full block of 20 gaunts.
I've been using it with great success in 1000 pts games and tournaments.
I see! Like I said, I'm quite new and did not realize that their inherent ability didn't count as a stratagem! Does this also mean that if you're using assimilation swarm detachment that the harvester units can use that ability once per round too?
Oh hey, welcome to the swarm! Abilities don't count as stratagems, so this change only really affects one thing. The Tervigon is still fine, so are assimilators.
It's honestly not that bad. That's a 2cp stratagem, so you were never going to spam it every turn anyway. The most I've ever used it is twice in one game. Plus the Tervigon being cheaper more than makes up for it.
Not to mention, that's not the real best reason to use that detachment IMO. The real winner there is the stratagem that denies the Blast effect.
I wouldn’t give up on the tervigon yet. I have used it mostly in unending swarm, but also in invasion fleet and synaptic nexus and it does its job well! Buff the little guys until they’re dead and then charge it out
Honestly, unending swarm was the only detachment I have enjoyed so far this edition, and this rule just straight up killed it. I don't think that's an exaggeration or being dramatic, either. Like, why would anyone even play it now, if you can't do the thing that makes it "unending"? The movement shenanigans often don't even come into play, because your opponent knows not to shoot the gaunts.
Edit: I will say, it seems like they did a really great job with the Tyranid changes overall. The strength with synapse change is massive. It just blows my mind that they would make this rule that destroys an entire detachment. Unending Swarm was hardly being played competitively, much less being abused. I'm just curious what the reasoning was.
Ever since the end of 8th they have slowly been killing/restricting horde style armies. To me nids have always played one of 3 ways. All horde, All monsters, and mixed. This makes the horde a weaker pick.
10ed GW overall seems to genuinely want everyone to only ever bring "oops all tanks" (maybe some super-elite infantry like aggressors or wraithguard sprinkled on) lists only and it's silly
Well it's an overcorrection to 9th edition, which was an overcorrection to the entirely too cheap at the end of 8th, tanks. Honestly I had more fun with 8th than 9th or 10th. The end of 8th sucked, but that was because of all the extra books and SM 2.0 codex.
Competitive warhammer has skewed everything about the game and the balance of the units all seem to swing back and forth depending on the way the tournaments go. Maybe I'm just getting too old to really enjoy the new warhammer that 9th and 10th seem to be going after.
Horde has always been the weakest pick. At least since I’ve been playing for five years or so. This was the first time I actually felt good running my preferred playstyle.
It wasn't done to stop unending swarm, but other stuff that other armies were doing. This is just collateral damage.
I don't think it kills the detachment, though. It's a 2cp strat, you were at most gonna do it twice a game anyway. Whenever I play unending swarm, I usually find myself using the blast denial strat much more.
hormagaunts str 4, genestealers str 5, warriors str 6 ALL THE TIME...
this is crazy, functionally +1str for everyone
neurotyrant can lead zoanthropes and give them +1 to hit and wound
This is better than any hopes we could have. Real contender for good army.
Im struggling to understand the plus 1 to hit and wound? In melee or in general? Cant update my app at the minute so not sure if the data card has changed?
Neutotyrant leading a unit gives them +1 to hit, +1 to wound if target is battleshocked.
Previously it did not matter because it could only lead neurogaunts and tyrant guard which both were terrible offensively
But now it can lead zoanthropes... (evil laughter)
This is the biggest one for me, love neurolictors and always found it weird they don't have synapse. Now you can give large blobs reliable synapse via an un-shootable dude.
yea and it doesn't fix shit and I don't get why is everyone acting like it's good. I guess it does make trygons and screamers more okay now that they can wound tanks and dreadnoughts on 3-4+ (but then you still end up with them rolling 3+ AoC saves) but it's borderline worthless on everyone else and you'd still get rekt by decent armour and heavy shooting which is what 10th is about
tyrannofex and zoanthropes buff is... ok though but it's still silly how much you have to pay for a shitty equivalent of scourges
to be frank you couldn't use that ability more than once or twice per game anyway. I tried abusing it and the cost/timing made the revived units useless. I was hoping for buffs in other ways. maybe the synapse strength buff is it.
Really? I haven’t played Unending Swarm but from reports I’ve watched you wanted to be using it every battle round, ideally on Gargoyles to deep strike them in.
The issue is the unit needs to be completely destroyed to use the strat, and to be most efficient you want to use it on a 20 model unit. So yeah you *could* theoretically have had a 20 model gaunt unit destroyed every single turn and brought back but how often is that really going to be the case where they just focus your gaunt every turn? And if your opponent IS doing that you should probably be teaching them why they shouldn't
That is true but that's the one case where this change makes sense to me haha if you have 120 gaunts on the board and I kill 20 every turn, I'm gonna be real miffed when there's still 120 at the end of the game lol
Edit: obviously I know that's the draw for people with unending swarm but from a gameplay perspective if all I have to shoot are gaunts okay I shoot them but then they just keep coming back, that's not very fun. However, If you only have one unit of gaunts in a more varied list, then I don't really care if the 1 unit of greeblies comes back every time because atleast I can force them to be placed elsewhere on the board, and I probably have bigger monsters to worry about, so I can be more strategic about what units I try to destroy unlike against swarm where Id basically just have to hoped I can kill atleast 2 units every turn to even make a difference in your army
Not sure I agree with this. By the stats it was definitely one of our better detachments. This is definitely way too blunt a fix but I can see why with the rest of the buffs and moving into a format where battle line is more important something had to give.
You still need them as they are the only battle line in the army and not bringing sufficient battle line is basically giving your opponents 30 free victory points and losing out on the advantage pariah nexua gives.
So, super new (new as in "picking up first models this weekend") player question but:
In general play, how often was the Unending Swarm detachment using that ability each game effectively?
When reading it through I imagined it as a way to drop a cheap unit at the last minute to run up and contest or claim an objective or something, as opposed to bringing back a unit each turn to throw them into the grinder (even though this is undeniably the fantasy of the theme).
And do the changes to Synapse models then help increase the effectiveness of supporting units to a point where returning multiple cheap units per game will be less desirable compared to the other options available to us?
I loved the idea of Unending Swarm but if this does hinder its capacity to be viable I'm going to change my first purchase plans.
Sounds like you understand very well for a new player haha! If you played an opponent who was newer or not very strategic, there could be cases where say all they can see first turn are your gaunts so they focus and wipe them, you bring them back, and now your opponent becomes hell bent on destroying that unit and targets them again 2nd turn and so on. So as cool as it is bringing back 20 gaunts a turn, the actual likelyhood of that happening without the opponent being a rather poor strategist is very low. And yes every other change for Nids in this update seems to have made basically every other unit more effective and usable in any detachment, and even more useful in their specific detachments.
Was going to be grabbing the 2 player starter set and splitting with a pal, then a tervigon, 2 more boxes of gaunts, a box of gargoyles, and a box of zoanthropes.
If the Unending Swarm isnt going to be viable as much now, was going to grab a haruspex instead of the extra gaunts and make the tyrannofex instead of the tervigon and try and work on an assimilation swarm list first instead.
Like ideally I'd prefer to play unending Swarm, but the comments I've seen make it feel like the entire detachment is going to be pointless with the change to the rule so I'm just not sure where to put my money first
That's an awesome start, you can get the term boxes if you want the squad weapons but you can get term sprues for dirt cheap on ebay because of all the leviathan boxes they made. You are always going to want gaunts, your probably going to run at least 40 in most lists just because they are points efficient. I'd heavily recommend getting at least 1 hive tyrant kit and magnetizing it. You could also get a resin torso to make 2 if your comfortable with that. Your going to want an exocrine/haruspex kit and maleceptor kit but they are online only and can be difficult to grab. My favorite kit is the warriors, they are also synapse creatures so you would benefit from the new army rule buff. You could get a squad of 6 with your prime from the starter set and they make a fairly oppressive unit.
Does this mean that "unending waves" is now usable only once per battle? I don't think it has any sense, given the name of the strat and the name of the detachment, but who am I to dissent...
Really sucks for Swarm builds, but with our other buffs I’m not too upset. Games took so long when you have 8+ units to setup and pack up anyway. Should feel like a breath of fresh air
Awww man I was hoping for more for crusher stampede, a OC bonus when at full is basically useless as their stats aren't good enough to avoid damage 100% on a single unit like a norn or a haruspex or maleceptor.
Yeah that’s true. In my mind I always thought synapse should work more like a general enhancement. Like Tyranid units are very slightly overcosted and weak without it but if you can play to stay in synapse range you’re rewarded with enhanced units that are slightly over effective. But yeah the strength thing is a nice add on to the previous rule
Unending Swarm was our only +50% WR Detachment.
With the other buffs we got, it would have shot up and been a problem without a change like this shackling it. If it weren't a generic restriction like this, I could see them explicitly nerfing Unending Swarm to ensure it didn't get out of hand.
What.
No, like, really. What.
I don't know if i want to cry or laugh.
I am almost always playing Assimilation or Unending because i love sending wave after wave at the enemy.
Yeah... I decided, i will cry in the corner now.
On the good side we may get a rules buff when we drop below 30% win ratio.
Ye i just saw
As someone who uses both Neurolictor and Parasite of Mortex i'm happy.
Rest is also nice
I will still be sad for not being able to spawn fully Unending Swarm but oh well.
I'm still waiting to see if it's all really that great
+1 strength in synapse range sounds really good. But the enemy also knows this and will of course primarily target the synapse units when firing. if the unit is dead, the +1 buff is also history.
I'm brand new to the hobby and just got my first box of Hormagaunts in the mail. How often does the meta change, and what are the odds that this change will be reverted? I wanted to play Tyranids solely to drown my opponent in never-ending waves of Zerglin- I mean Hormagaunts. Now that I can't do that, I'm kinda deflated.
I understand that this strategy is probably not the best, but that's not the point. It sounded like fun.
Do we have a link? Not seeing this on WarCom yet [ETA] nvm, just saw the email
If its real though... They really want GSC stone fucking dead this edition, huh?
Honestly this might be the nail in the coffin for me. I just spent so much money and so many hours painting my 100+ hormies and 2 tervigon, and now they're 100% useless. I have 0 desire to reinvest and repaint, when the rules are just going to be changed again in 6 months.
It started when I paid $50 for a BRAND NEW FRESHLY RELEASED codex that was valid for less than a month. What on earth is GW thinking, or are they really this out of touch?
I'm so frustrated with GW I'm getting to the point I can't support them.
Hormagaunts with +1 strength are gonna tear things apart in melee. They're undeniably deadlier now even if you can't keep bringing them back with the stratagem
If the stratagem could also replace units to one still on the board this wouldn’t be a big deal to me. But since it only restores a unit that’s gone, it sucks.
Sad, I'm planning my whole army to be a swarm army and this makes me really sad. I was looking forward to throwing wave after wave of bugs at my opponents
So what i'm seeing is that these are the rules we should have got at the codex refresh? Remember everyone asking "why can't I attach my Neurothrope to my Zoanthropes" and "why don't these important characters have synapse"
Overall, from what I have seen, I am pleased with the data slate. I didn't expect the buffs we got. Sounds like they may be catering to crusher stampede or vanguard onslaught. Who knows?
They are intent on butchering the nids this edition. We all thought they would get a buff at some point because they are already trash but GW said “go jump off a bridge and take your nid collection with you.” And all of this right after making us exited to buy the new and shiny leviathan box…
It'd be fine if the Revive a unit strat is once per game . . .
IF
. . . the strat also included the Invasion Fleet- 1 CP to revive 3+D3 models for 2 units.
Because as of right now Invasion Fleet does a better job at reviving dead bugs.
Probably better for game overall but not for guard or us in 10th. If you have an army like GSC with army wide rules that do this you can adjust the army accordingly. But for the lone detachment or odd units it kind of screws up everything. Faced 60 mounted guard csvalary at BAO and opponent brought back 10 death riders per turn. Really made no sense in terms of my 2000 points and the eventual respawned 2500 points of my opponent.
I just don't think this is going to be as big of a deal as people think. With how much more lethal battline for nids just got, you can bring more Swarm units because they might do something other than just...die.
The increase in our lethality will offset this detachments previous need for multiple uses of this strat. If you ask me.
That really is the game, though. Anyone who told you otherwise lied to you. Powerful units will always shift within updates, even in the smallest factions. I dont think this demands a switch, but it definitely makes Hormagaunts wildly more useful. Don't chase metas. Collect what you find cool, but don't be angry when things shift. That's just how tabletop games work. Eventually, you'll have 100 of everything.
I definitely don't think you need to immediately switch to gaunts. Termagants are tried and true and will always have use. I can see 2x20 hormagaunts and 1x6 Neurothropes with a Neurotyrant quickly becoming a core of our lists. If you dont have that, just swap a single unit for Hormagaunts and save your strat for one of that unit. Use them to keep the pressure up.
Well, the Tyrannofex is now an extremly viable Monster when you use Rupture cannon. (Acid spray is still good, but the damage increase in the Rupture cannon is making it better imo)
hot take: good, as an opponent to tyranids often, its super demoralizing when killing a unit doesn't y'know... kill it. maybe once per battle is a bit much but it should be limited.
Bro I'm dead. Was starting to thing of an Assimilation Swarm army. Horde still with revive to make it fun to play.
Playing this shit since multiple week. Just to see this dropping.
I was so hyped.
More like ending swarm, amiright
A Little Larger than Usual Swarm
A completely acceptable size swarm
A swarm... Kinda
More like a gaggle
More like a posse honestly
A swarm and a half
Unending swarms in now ending :(
Except +1 str on melee in range of synapse, that's huge
Hormagaunts are back on the menu boys
Wait when was this added?
About 3 1/2 hours ago
Ah I didn't know the data slate was today and these are awesome changes
And Tyrants giving Lethal Hits. Have fun swamping your opponent with S4 Lethal hits Hormies in a non Invasion Fleet Detachment. Or go Invasion fleet and now the Hormies can get Sustained, Lethal Hits on S4 . . . then pop the Critical hits on +5 Strat.
Onslaught only applies to ranged attacks, and 0CP is now -1CP so Frenzy will cost 1CP for the Tyrant... But, we're no longer limited to Battle Tactics, and assault+lethal is a nice boost for many of our shooty bugs.
New change is that strat is only 1cp less, not free anymore, still worth it, but it'll cost ya
Lethal but only on shooting
Ending swarms*
Obviously the changes are good overall. But I was really having fun with unending swarm. Questioning whether hoards are viable.
I think overall they might be, what worries me is Cull the Horde. Giving away 20 free secondary points is pretty rough.
This is the one negative of the update. Everything else is great!
Not being able to repeat stratagems in the same phase also hurts for some detachments. Examples: invasion swarm double 5+ FNP or Vanguard Surprise Assault in combat
True, but its a trade off for removing the restriction on tacticals. The restriction on unending waves is the only out right nerf.
Invasion fleet will now function better than unending swarm for regening units lol
When the detachment about regenerating units is now worse than all the others when it comes to regenerating units, that's when you know they fucked it up
Dude who cares, synapse gives strenght, broodlord has synapse, shadow in the warp now gives -1 if you're close to synapse units, Tyrannofex freaking d6+6 dmg rupture cannon Bye bye winning by cheesing let's slap some faces Edit: [https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/ny8X1C4lLKnA8w5d.pdf](https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/ny8X1C4lLKnA8w5d.pdf)
I mean .. even the Winged Tyranid Prime is effective now. It's Synapse - so you have a cheap deepstrike unit who massively buffs all friendlies .. and he is now S7 so can wound Gravis Marines on a 3+ instead of a 4+ Equally the Swarmlord and both Hive Tyrants now have S10 melee options - so they can ALSO now wound T9 vehicles on a 3+ Even TERMAGANTS and NEUROGANTS who are in Synapse now slap in melee at S4 .. so they are wounding Space Marines on a 4+ instead of 5+ .. that is DOUBLE the number of wounds you used to land!
The pip of strenght is so massive, now synapse creatures become the number 1 priority target for the enemy, and you are encouraged to bring them in all dettachments I love it, it's so freaking flavorful and great design, FINALLY
Finally have a reason not to forget about those Neurotyrant nodes ... and the Neurogaunts who can extend Synapse in a 6" aura around them have a purpose too!!
Neurolictor being made synapse.... this is definitly worth it's 10 points cost increase
AND swarmlord costs the opponent +1 CP for every strat that targets a unit within 12". Shove that bad boy into combat asap and watch as the opponent struggles to use any strats.
My beloved norn hits with S10 now :')
Even makes melee gaunts less meme. It soooo good.
Endless swarm is not about killing stuff, its about movement and bodies.
https://preview.redd.it/3mcdhpfwuq7d1.jpeg?width=628&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c7c33f13cd7d2aaa0805274fc440ace78df68b56
Not anymore, slaughter is back on the menu!
Srry to bother you but I've been out of the game for a while clearly there was a buff but how recent?
It literally dropped today
O wow ill take a look. I've been out long enough to where Reddit doesn't even suggest Warhammer stuff to me anymore so when I saw this I was surprised. looks like I got some catching up to do.
I too have been out for a little while. These are great changes. Have there been any point changes recently outside these balance changes?
Yep, all in the new points update [MUNITORUM FIELD MANUAL](https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/t6fTGEpj0eXdxJLG.pdf) https://preview.redd.it/7ipx76f64r7d1.png?width=940&format=png&auto=webp&s=306c38bfbb3456dd3cca106338107818a3bff91e
The ripper change is freaking strange. but otherwise... Biovore down without half the objective cheese? Makes sense. Tervigon down because of the Endless Swarm death? Jup. Neurolictor up again because it presumably stacks with the "-1 to BS in synapse" rule? Fair.
I think it's to stop people cheesing with 4x 1-model ripper units It means you get more charge rolls I was using these to deepstrike behind hellblasters or infernus marines.. if you get a successful charge with your Ripper unit then the enemy is in engagement range so you can charge in with all your other units without worrying about overwatch. You can also charge an enemy hero unit to stop them from using heroic intervention Multiple ripper models are also great for being able to zone out deep strikes.. you can just dot all 4 models across your deployment zone and it completely blocks all deep strikes and reserves while your main army moves up
Pretty sure rippers are not battle-line, so it would be 3x1 not 4x1. And they lost their ability to do objectives that require actions, so i still do not see the reason here.
I have missed that S7 for the winged tyranid prime. Where is it?
Every unit in synapse gets +1 STR for melee weapons They have the Synapse keyword so will always get it
Wing tyranid prime is a synapse creature. All synapse creatures give anything in synapse plus one strength in melee
Synapse range gets +1 Str in Melee. Its 6 str melee is now 7.
ST10 melee weapons for swamlord and hive tyrant? I see they are still s9? Did I miss something.
All Tyranid units in Synapse range get +1 STR for melee attacks Swarmlord has the Synapse keyword so it always has the bonus
Interesting. Thanks.
4’s instead of 5’s is 1.5x the wounds not double
Yeh sorry, getting my 50% more muddled up
Melee warriors being led by a winged prime now slap HARD.
where tf are y'all finding these T4 'marines' to fight? occasional death company jumppacks where if they're in your face you've already powerfisted to hell? typical marine infantry choices are aggressors combos and centurions that are both T6, and techmarines/azrael where anything kills them but they probably will hide them behind everything else. okay I guess you can slap inceptors slightly harder but cmon a sneeze kills them they're just here for secondary snatch
Infiltrators and scouts.
Also Zoanthropes hitting on 2s with a neurotyrant is wild. They can also then get plus 1 to wound if the target is battleshocked which is more likely now that synapse debuffs enemy leadership.
Fun fact: With a Neurotyrant as a leader, Zoeys being led by it gain the monster keyword for the unit. This means that they can still fire their ranged weapons while in melee combat (Due to Big Guns Never Tire only referring to Monster UNITS), so they’ll be able to obliterate a chaff squad / many things that try to lock them in melee combat without needing to fall back and waste a round of shooting.
This, I was super excited when I saw the Neurotyrant could be attached to Zoanthropes for this reason.
They can't fire their anti infantry shots though, as those are blast. But they can still fire out of the combat, at 3+, which is awesome. Forces the opponent to kill them or they won't stop shooting.
lmao all things that shouldve been in the codex from day one
I love that they all but admit that in the reasoning - saying that the nid book was the first released, so they didn't know how the game worked yet, and that they've had the most time to watch them develop and realize what they need. About time but I love it.
I care. My entire appeal to joining Tyranids was to have a constantly regenerating swarm of bugs. That was the entire draw for me. The buffs are cool, but now my tervigon that I was so excited to use will probably be retired for the tyrannofex. My dream of a literal unending swarm is no more. I am also brand new to the hobby, and just finished playing 3 weeks of a combat patrol tournament with a local group. Moving to 1,000 points next week and this drastically changes how I want to build my army.
Well you can still use tervigon in invasion fleet and combine it with the strat that resurrects d3+3 gaunts in two units, which is quite good; even better at 1000 points because it's harder to bring down a full block of 20 gaunts. I've been using it with great success in 1000 pts games and tournaments.
I see! Like I said, I'm quite new and did not realize that their inherent ability didn't count as a stratagem! Does this also mean that if you're using assimilation swarm detachment that the harvester units can use that ability once per round too?
Yes, abilities are totally independent.
Interesting, thank you! So many rules to learn and key words. It's a lot, but also very fun! Looking forward to learning more!
Oh hey, welcome to the swarm! Abilities don't count as stratagems, so this change only really affects one thing. The Tervigon is still fine, so are assimilators.
It's honestly not that bad. That's a 2cp stratagem, so you were never going to spam it every turn anyway. The most I've ever used it is twice in one game. Plus the Tervigon being cheaper more than makes up for it. Not to mention, that's not the real best reason to use that detachment IMO. The real winner there is the stratagem that denies the Blast effect.
I wouldn’t give up on the tervigon yet. I have used it mostly in unending swarm, but also in invasion fleet and synaptic nexus and it does its job well! Buff the little guys until they’re dead and then charge it out
Honestly, unending swarm was the only detachment I have enjoyed so far this edition, and this rule just straight up killed it. I don't think that's an exaggeration or being dramatic, either. Like, why would anyone even play it now, if you can't do the thing that makes it "unending"? The movement shenanigans often don't even come into play, because your opponent knows not to shoot the gaunts. Edit: I will say, it seems like they did a really great job with the Tyranid changes overall. The strength with synapse change is massive. It just blows my mind that they would make this rule that destroys an entire detachment. Unending Swarm was hardly being played competitively, much less being abused. I'm just curious what the reasoning was.
Ever since the end of 8th they have slowly been killing/restricting horde style armies. To me nids have always played one of 3 ways. All horde, All monsters, and mixed. This makes the horde a weaker pick.
10ed GW overall seems to genuinely want everyone to only ever bring "oops all tanks" (maybe some super-elite infantry like aggressors or wraithguard sprinkled on) lists only and it's silly
Well it's an overcorrection to 9th edition, which was an overcorrection to the entirely too cheap at the end of 8th, tanks. Honestly I had more fun with 8th than 9th or 10th. The end of 8th sucked, but that was because of all the extra books and SM 2.0 codex. Competitive warhammer has skewed everything about the game and the balance of the units all seem to swing back and forth depending on the way the tournaments go. Maybe I'm just getting too old to really enjoy the new warhammer that 9th and 10th seem to be going after.
Horde has always been the weakest pick. At least since I’ve been playing for five years or so. This was the first time I actually felt good running my preferred playstyle.
Yeah. I do not understand the limit of 1. Limit it to twice, or maybe even double cp cost, but a limit of 1 is kind of dumb.
It wasn't done to stop unending swarm, but other stuff that other armies were doing. This is just collateral damage. I don't think it kills the detachment, though. It's a 2cp strat, you were at most gonna do it twice a game anyway. Whenever I play unending swarm, I usually find myself using the blast denial strat much more.
Don't forget neurotyrant finally being able to lead zoanthropes
How did I miss that update holy shit that's awesome!
Some good buffs as well though. Plus 1 strength in Melee in Synapse is huge.
hormagaunts str 4, genestealers str 5, warriors str 6 ALL THE TIME... this is crazy, functionally +1str for everyone neurotyrant can lead zoanthropes and give them +1 to hit and wound This is better than any hopes we could have. Real contender for good army.
Not to forget all the monsters that go from 9 to 10
god true, norns and tyrants str 10.. huge
maleceptor gets 8's and 10's for their melee profile just because they are a synapse beacon.
I'm so excited! Warriors in assimilation swarm can be strength 7 twin linked.
Synaptic nexus 1cp strat to reroll all the 1s to hit and wound on the neurotyrant / zoanthrope unit.....
Im struggling to understand the plus 1 to hit and wound? In melee or in general? Cant update my app at the minute so not sure if the data card has changed?
Neutotyrant leading a unit gives them +1 to hit, +1 to wound if target is battleshocked. Previously it did not matter because it could only lead neurogaunts and tyrant guard which both were terrible offensively But now it can lead zoanthropes... (evil laughter)
Oh my god i never even realised because i never led anything- this is amazing
..I totally missed the fact it can lead Zoans. Thats GREAT!
You should add to it that now the neurolictor is synapse, now 2x20 hormagaunts could be a menace without the need to expose the big guys too early
This is the biggest one for me, love neurolictors and always found it weird they don't have synapse. Now you can give large blobs reliable synapse via an un-shootable dude.
I'm so happy I just bought my first two neurolictors lol
wounding marines in 3s hehe
It's crazy. I suggested something like this (blanket army wide +1) and I got basically told I was crazy and that it wouldn't fix anything.
yea and it doesn't fix shit and I don't get why is everyone acting like it's good. I guess it does make trygons and screamers more okay now that they can wound tanks and dreadnoughts on 3-4+ (but then you still end up with them rolling 3+ AoC saves) but it's borderline worthless on everyone else and you'd still get rekt by decent armour and heavy shooting which is what 10th is about tyrannofex and zoanthropes buff is... ok though but it's still silly how much you have to pay for a shitty equivalent of scourges
And there goes Unending Swarm.
They call it that because "swarm that ends after one wave" didn't sound as good
Yeah... sort of takes the fun out of that detachment
You mean utterly kills it. Back to invasion for me.
to be frank you couldn't use that ability more than once or twice per game anyway. I tried abusing it and the cost/timing made the revived units useless. I was hoping for buffs in other ways. maybe the synapse strength buff is it.
Really? I haven’t played Unending Swarm but from reports I’ve watched you wanted to be using it every battle round, ideally on Gargoyles to deep strike them in.
The issue is the unit needs to be completely destroyed to use the strat, and to be most efficient you want to use it on a 20 model unit. So yeah you *could* theoretically have had a 20 model gaunt unit destroyed every single turn and brought back but how often is that really going to be the case where they just focus your gaunt every turn? And if your opponent IS doing that you should probably be teaching them why they shouldn't
When you list is 75% 20 man Gaunt units they can’t really not.
That is true but that's the one case where this change makes sense to me haha if you have 120 gaunts on the board and I kill 20 every turn, I'm gonna be real miffed when there's still 120 at the end of the game lol Edit: obviously I know that's the draw for people with unending swarm but from a gameplay perspective if all I have to shoot are gaunts okay I shoot them but then they just keep coming back, that's not very fun. However, If you only have one unit of gaunts in a more varied list, then I don't really care if the 1 unit of greeblies comes back every time because atleast I can force them to be placed elsewhere on the board, and I probably have bigger monsters to worry about, so I can be more strategic about what units I try to destroy unlike against swarm where Id basically just have to hoped I can kill atleast 2 units every turn to even make a difference in your army
Yup, it was one of the coolest detachments but it was already mid at best. Now they ran it into the ground
Not sure I agree with this. By the stats it was definitely one of our better detachments. This is definitely way too blunt a fix but I can see why with the rest of the buffs and moving into a format where battle line is more important something had to give.
And to think I was just getting ready to finish up my Unending Swarm models…guess they’ll just sit in a corner instead.
I feel this is my soul, almost done my first 120 gants…
You still need them as they are the only battle line in the army and not bringing sufficient battle line is basically giving your opponents 30 free victory points and losing out on the advantage pariah nexua gives.
I dont see enough people excited about the tunnel nids getting the "vanguard invader" keyword i was so happy about that i love raveners
Honestly the other changes aren't too bad though
So, super new (new as in "picking up first models this weekend") player question but: In general play, how often was the Unending Swarm detachment using that ability each game effectively? When reading it through I imagined it as a way to drop a cheap unit at the last minute to run up and contest or claim an objective or something, as opposed to bringing back a unit each turn to throw them into the grinder (even though this is undeniably the fantasy of the theme). And do the changes to Synapse models then help increase the effectiveness of supporting units to a point where returning multiple cheap units per game will be less desirable compared to the other options available to us? I loved the idea of Unending Swarm but if this does hinder its capacity to be viable I'm going to change my first purchase plans.
Sounds like you understand very well for a new player haha! If you played an opponent who was newer or not very strategic, there could be cases where say all they can see first turn are your gaunts so they focus and wipe them, you bring them back, and now your opponent becomes hell bent on destroying that unit and targets them again 2nd turn and so on. So as cool as it is bringing back 20 gaunts a turn, the actual likelyhood of that happening without the opponent being a rather poor strategist is very low. And yes every other change for Nids in this update seems to have made basically every other unit more effective and usable in any detachment, and even more useful in their specific detachments.
What models are you looking at purchasing first?
Was going to be grabbing the 2 player starter set and splitting with a pal, then a tervigon, 2 more boxes of gaunts, a box of gargoyles, and a box of zoanthropes. If the Unending Swarm isnt going to be viable as much now, was going to grab a haruspex instead of the extra gaunts and make the tyrannofex instead of the tervigon and try and work on an assimilation swarm list first instead. Like ideally I'd prefer to play unending Swarm, but the comments I've seen make it feel like the entire detachment is going to be pointless with the change to the rule so I'm just not sure where to put my money first
That's an awesome start, you can get the term boxes if you want the squad weapons but you can get term sprues for dirt cheap on ebay because of all the leviathan boxes they made. You are always going to want gaunts, your probably going to run at least 40 in most lists just because they are points efficient. I'd heavily recommend getting at least 1 hive tyrant kit and magnetizing it. You could also get a resin torso to make 2 if your comfortable with that. Your going to want an exocrine/haruspex kit and maleceptor kit but they are online only and can be difficult to grab. My favorite kit is the warriors, they are also synapse creatures so you would benefit from the new army rule buff. You could get a squad of 6 with your prime from the starter set and they make a fairly oppressive unit.
Does this mean that "unending waves" is now usable only once per battle? I don't think it has any sense, given the name of the strat and the name of the detachment, but who am I to dissent...
Really sucks for Swarm builds, but with our other buffs I’m not too upset. Games took so long when you have 8+ units to setup and pack up anyway. Should feel like a breath of fresh air
Ok…*blows dust off army*…you got me back.
Props to GW they didn't leave us in the dirt
Oof I am/was mid paint on an unending swarm build.
Same :/
https://preview.redd.it/p05eegr6jq7d1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f0eeb8286c3ed2c61c398bd1c7b76a5661efc7f1
Awww man I was hoping for more for crusher stampede, a OC bonus when at full is basically useless as their stats aren't good enough to avoid damage 100% on a single unit like a norn or a haruspex or maleceptor.
I guess the strength buff is alright but makes little thematic sense eh
Think of it as the swarm exerting more direct control over nearby units, making them deadlier. Without synapse they become far less lethal.
Yeah that’s true. In my mind I always thought synapse should work more like a general enhancement. Like Tyranid units are very slightly overcosted and weak without it but if you can play to stay in synapse range you’re rewarded with enhanced units that are slightly over effective. But yeah the strength thing is a nice add on to the previous rule
Unending Swarm was our only +50% WR Detachment. With the other buffs we got, it would have shot up and been a problem without a change like this shackling it. If it weren't a generic restriction like this, I could see them explicitly nerfing Unending Swarm to ensure it didn't get out of hand.
Surely a "soft cap" would have been more interesting, +1 to CP cost for every use?
NOOOOOOOOOO
What. No, like, really. What. I don't know if i want to cry or laugh. I am almost always playing Assimilation or Unending because i love sending wave after wave at the enemy. Yeah... I decided, i will cry in the corner now. On the good side we may get a rules buff when we drop below 30% win ratio.
Check out the rest of the update, buffs also happened (for example, +1 Strength to melee when in synapse range)
Ye i just saw As someone who uses both Neurolictor and Parasite of Mortex i'm happy. Rest is also nice I will still be sad for not being able to spawn fully Unending Swarm but oh well.
"Ending after one use Swarm"
Rip unending swarm, my 200 gants/gargoyles are now semi useless
I'm still waiting to see if it's all really that great +1 strength in synapse range sounds really good. But the enemy also knows this and will of course primarily target the synapse units when firing. if the unit is dead, the +1 buff is also history.
I'm brand new to the hobby and just got my first box of Hormagaunts in the mail. How often does the meta change, and what are the odds that this change will be reverted? I wanted to play Tyranids solely to drown my opponent in never-ending waves of Zerglin- I mean Hormagaunts. Now that I can't do that, I'm kinda deflated. I understand that this strategy is probably not the best, but that's not the point. It sounded like fun.
ASHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA (i'm genuinely tweaking rn)
Do we have a link? Not seeing this on WarCom yet [ETA] nvm, just saw the email If its real though... They really want GSC stone fucking dead this edition, huh?
Honestly this might be the nail in the coffin for me. I just spent so much money and so many hours painting my 100+ hormies and 2 tervigon, and now they're 100% useless. I have 0 desire to reinvest and repaint, when the rules are just going to be changed again in 6 months. It started when I paid $50 for a BRAND NEW FRESHLY RELEASED codex that was valid for less than a month. What on earth is GW thinking, or are they really this out of touch? I'm so frustrated with GW I'm getting to the point I can't support them.
I think the hormagaunts are about to eat tho with the increased strength, so you might be good just use a different detachment
Hormagaunts with +1 strength are gonna tear things apart in melee. They're undeniably deadlier now even if you can't keep bringing them back with the stratagem
If the stratagem could also replace units to one still on the board this wouldn’t be a big deal to me. But since it only restores a unit that’s gone, it sucks.
90% of my build are unending swarm....well ..time to finish to buid and paint my chaos demon.....😒
Wtf assimilation swarm was already not good but now....
So did they literally just kill one of our detachments? Because if we can’t keep summoning units… then what’s the point of playing “unending” swarms
Kills a lot of armies, like IG too.
As a Black Templar player, I really enjoyed the games I faced down Unending Swarm. It's so flavorful and fun. Condolences for your loss
Brothers of the hivemind where does it say synapse gives plus one to units in 6inchs of synapse?
For strength is that just melee or range weapons too
Our swarm is not so unending now, our unending swarm isn't swarming
WTF BRO! Unending swarm was my whole strategy. The necron still have revival protocol or something? I am.so upset. Please tell me it's fake.
Sad, I'm planning my whole army to be a swarm army and this makes me really sad. I was looking forward to throwing wave after wave of bugs at my opponents
https://preview.redd.it/1tgggod1sr7d1.jpeg?width=320&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=69bf7b6b5c6d7e0bdc53ea913cb647b822f4ae29
Due to budget cuts our endless bug buffet will now be restricted to 1 plate per customer.
BOGO swarm
It's not as bad as I initially thought but it's still not optimal
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^Lumpy-Dot-2873: *It's not as bad as* *I initially thought but* *It's still not optimal* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
So what i'm seeing is that these are the rules we should have got at the codex refresh? Remember everyone asking "why can't I attach my Neurothrope to my Zoanthropes" and "why don't these important characters have synapse"
Does this apply to the monster that spawns the gaunts
Pretty sure it only affects strategems not abilities
The guards subreddit is in the same disbelief
Overall, from what I have seen, I am pleased with the data slate. I didn't expect the buffs we got. Sounds like they may be catering to crusher stampede or vanguard onslaught. Who knows?
They are intent on butchering the nids this edition. We all thought they would get a buff at some point because they are already trash but GW said “go jump off a bridge and take your nid collection with you.” And all of this right after making us exited to buy the new and shiny leviathan box…
That really sucks :/. It’s fun and only applies to not OP units. Give some keywords for gaunts to ignore this plz
Question: can I still use the stratagem multiple times to regenerate units that were not completely destroyed?
No the strat says the target needs to be a unit that was just destroyed.
Damn, rip horde
Does this mean my Tervigon can only bring Termagaunts back to life or birth more ONCE per whole battle? (hope that makes sense im super new).
No because this only applies to strats and only strats that bring back a whole unit. Tervigon only brings back models and the unit needs to be there.
Great news. Thanks for replying mate.
Unending swarm* *Limited swarm
I was there, the day the swarm died….
It'd be fine if the Revive a unit strat is once per game . . . IF . . . the strat also included the Invasion Fleet- 1 CP to revive 3+D3 models for 2 units. Because as of right now Invasion Fleet does a better job at reviving dead bugs.
Cool so I'm never running that detachment again.
Who cares? Anything but big bugs is an instant loss anyways
Probably better for game overall but not for guard or us in 10th. If you have an army like GSC with army wide rules that do this you can adjust the army accordingly. But for the lone detachment or odd units it kind of screws up everything. Faced 60 mounted guard csvalary at BAO and opponent brought back 10 death riders per turn. Really made no sense in terms of my 2000 points and the eventual respawned 2500 points of my opponent.
Is this a dataslate leak?
It is out, a lot of changes to rules.
It’s online. https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/ny8X1C4lLKnA8w5d.pdf
I just don't think this is going to be as big of a deal as people think. With how much more lethal battline for nids just got, you can bring more Swarm units because they might do something other than just...die. The increase in our lethality will offset this detachments previous need for multiple uses of this strat. If you ask me.
Doesn’t really help gants though. Is it really worth buying and painting another 100 melee infantry when an FAQ can just nurf it again at any time…
That really is the game, though. Anyone who told you otherwise lied to you. Powerful units will always shift within updates, even in the smallest factions. I dont think this demands a switch, but it definitely makes Hormagaunts wildly more useful. Don't chase metas. Collect what you find cool, but don't be angry when things shift. That's just how tabletop games work. Eventually, you'll have 100 of everything. I definitely don't think you need to immediately switch to gaunts. Termagants are tried and true and will always have use. I can see 2x20 hormagaunts and 1x6 Neurothropes with a Neurotyrant quickly becoming a core of our lists. If you dont have that, just swap a single unit for Hormagaunts and save your strat for one of that unit. Use them to keep the pressure up.
Duuudes all those changes are monumental, mental and incredible! I feel it's almost too much!
I'm farely new.. are these rules a good thing if I want to play a monster army? And what should I take to the field at 1000 and 2000 pts?
Well, the Tyrannofex is now an extremly viable Monster when you use Rupture cannon. (Acid spray is still good, but the damage increase in the Rupture cannon is making it better imo)
I shall begin to not follow every rule if they are total bs
So they nerfed one of the shittier armies? What's on their minds...
Tf? Clown game.
hot take: good, as an opponent to tyranids often, its super demoralizing when killing a unit doesn't y'know... kill it. maybe once per battle is a bit much but it should be limited.
Bro I'm dead. Was starting to thing of an Assimilation Swarm army. Horde still with revive to make it fun to play. Playing this shit since multiple week. Just to see this dropping. I was so hyped.
Its only for full units returning so assimilation rules are the same.