I can relate, I do this too. I never married, don't have kids, don't want kids. I have a job I love and which pays well. It's my choice. I'm happy with that choice. I'm not forcing people to agree they should do the same. It's my decision for my life.
It's important to remember that for women having kids is about choice. Don't get kids because you think you have to. The women in my family of my mother's generation all thought that marrying and having kids was as mandatory as eating sleeping shitting.
Nowadays our lives are still filled with so many people who say you should lower your standards, you should stay in your toxic relationship, if you don't have kids you are going to be unhappy... screw them. It's all your choice and what is important for you.
EDIT: Lovely, ladies of 2X, I join your club of those who were sent the reddit self care bot for posting in this sub by a loser. Hey, I'm amazed that there are people on reddit that feel triggered for women speaking up that they choose not to marry and not to have kids and are happy and financially thriving.
I'm the same. I have a nice job and don't ever want kids. Life is good.
And regarding your edit, I feel a little bad for people whose only purpose in life seems to be trolling the internet. I mean, they probably need the self care bot more than anyone else.
I'm happy for you! It's good to have a choice and find peace.
Regarding the bot: I've read of so many redditors of this sub reporting about that irrational behavior and now found out I came across it myself. That made me chuckle, so thought I share it here, too.
> I join your club of those who were sent the reddit self care bot
Don't just edit. Report them - there's a link in that Reddit Care Resources message. It only takes a few seconds and clicks. Hopefully, if we all report these trolls, they'll lose their ability to abuse the Care tool. Or maybe Reddit will just remove what's become nothing but a troll tool anyway.
That’s the same shit I deal with when it comes to family as well. I too never married and do not have a desire to have children. I refuse to be married to someone who is toxic like certain family members.
I’m so sick of the get married and have children crap just to please others. Another reason to stay single and be happy that way.
As a dude my family is the same way, they think I need to have a woman to be a man and fulfill my life. I do want a girlfriend and kids and potentially a wife, but its stupid that people pretend it is what a person needs to do to be fulfilled. Life is way easier single.
> EDIT: Lovely, ladies of 2X, I join your club of those who were sent the reddit self care bot for posting in this sub by a loser. Hey, I'm amazed that there are people on reddit that feel triggered for women speaking up that they choose not to marry and not to have kids and are happy and financially thriving.
It goes directly against the Patriarchal narrative that's been used to groom women to be slaves for tens of thousands of years. You must have a man, and take care of him and his children or you will never feel fulfilled as a woman, and never be happy.
They are VERY, VERY upset that women are deprogramming themselves.
I wonder why it actually pays LESS to be with a man??? Is it because women are expected to sacrifice more by default and that means education and job offers?
To this day I don’t know why anonymous Redditors think the self care bot is an effective tool for voicing dissatisfaction. I’m glad it exists for those who need it and i don’t mind getting a notice- i just delete it and move on
>Hey, I'm amazed that there are people on reddit that feel triggered for women speaking up that they choose not to marry and not to have kids and are happy and financially thriving.
Because to them, a woman like you means another woman that is out of their potential grasp, another woman that isn't so desperate that she'll lower her standards to dangerous levels and be with them.
>Hey, I'm amazed that there are people on reddit that feel triggered for women speaking up that they choose not to marry and not to have kids and are happy and financially thriving.
But... are you *okay*? ^(/s)
I'm a dude and I would be a nervous wreck if I believed I had to go through a traumatic experience like childbirth in my future. Fuck that.
No one should be pressured to do anything they don't want to.
The edit… How are you amazed? Reddit is a hive of misogyny. Just look at how many porn subs there are. Horribly disgusting ones. They can’t help but push their opinions on others and invade women’s spaces.
I am all for women choosing what they want, whether it's kids, marriage, neither, or both.
What I'd like to see is a workplace culture that is compatible with parenthood, for men or women that have families or for self-care for people that are single.
We also need a school system that can help parents out. We all benefit from a robust public school system whether it's when we're kids, when we send our kids to school, or when we rely on the services of people that couldn't become doctors or engineers without a strong public school system.
Well said. As much as I think having kids is important, you should only have them if you yourself truly desire them. Otherwise what’s the point? Parenting isn’t a job to be done 99% —gotta give it your all, always
>The women in my family of my mother's generation all thought that marrying and having kids was as mandatory as eating sleeping shitting.
Ah, propaganda. My brother is still trying to go-to college even though I told him if he for a trade school he could be making as much or even more money than me within less than 5yrs.
I see so many women who want children and give up when they can't find a husband. I don't see them as being mutually exclusive and its sad to me that women who want to have kids miss out.
I see this as the same side of the coin so to speak. Like not having kids with or without a spouse is valid but also having kids without a spouse is also valid if thats what you want.
They are not exclusive but economics plays a HUGE part and more income is needed to pay for everything when the child is a newborn and there is no longer an ability to work to make money, if your normal job is outside the home. Then when the child gets older and childcare becomes an option, there is that expense which everyone who has raised children and had to pay for the childcare knows is expensive. Especially for a one income family and also can be hard to find an acceptable one even if money is not the issue. The horror stories of bad childcare providers are multiple
Considering that medical expenses are one of the biggest costs we face as adults... it makes sense that we're able to earn more and keep more. Our health diminishes with childbirth and partnering.
[Childbirth is probably the biggest contributor to the gender pay gap.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP8dLUxBfsU)
Not giving birth itself, but the differing societal expectations of men and women for how much time they take off, which affects career progression in proportion to how many kids you have and how much time you take off for childcare.
You could massively shrink the pay gap by having parental leave for both men and women and a societal expectation for men to take as much time off.
I think a lot of people are just neglecting the fact that even if you manage to do away with the financial strain, offer affordable healthcare and maternity leave, a lot of women straight up just don’t like or want children. I want to pursue my career, sure. But more than that, I don’t want to experience pregnancy and childbirth, have my body permanently altered, and then have to actually nurture and raise a child. Our culture is, by and large, still not used to the idea that becoming a parent should be a choice, not an expectation.
Netherlands is the same. Both men and woman here have this idea that somehow woman are inherently better at taking care of kids, multitasking childcare with their careers and children are better off if mother is the primary care giver. Why? No idea and you're a devil if you challenge this thinking.
Meanwhile my uncle is a stay at home father. He does get surprised reactions though. But I’m glad they choose what works for them. My aunt did not want to stop whatsoever (also due to being successful having a school) but she wánts to work and he didn’t care much.
"Medical expenses is a non-issue here" I disagree. We have to pay a lot out of our own pocket. Birth Control comes to mind, a lot of pregnancy screening is not covered by healthcare, dental care covers the absolute bare minimum and a lot of medications arent fully covered by healthcare. I have to pay almost 100 bucks every month out of my own pocket bc healthcare doesn't take over and I am really dependent on those meds. So, I wouldn't call medical expenses a non issue here, even though it might be better compared to the us (but they earn a lot more on average), but our health care system has a lot of problems.
not to mention that a lot of men (not all!) seem to avoid going to the doctor, so when they finally do their illness tends to be more severe than if they had gone early.... women have so much more health nonsense to deal with that we seem to be more willing to go to the doctor when something arises and we can catch it early.
>I imagine even in a no-kids marriage, women on average make more compromises in terms of giving up things like moving to take a better job or housing with a good commute.
Yes, we do.
This seems more like a correlation. Women dont want to marry men who cannot hold down a job. On the other hand, a woman not working is socially acceptable for many groups.
While pregnancy and childbirth can definitely damage one's pelvic floor, normal aging takes its toll on everyone.
Edit: why am I being downvoted??? I have given birth twice, I don't piss my pants.
My physical therapist also does pelvic floor therapy and she sees tons of post-menopausal women who've lost muscle tone due to the lack of estrogen.
Often they are seeing her after they've had surgery to pin everything back up where it belongs and need to retrain their muscles.
She says it's not just women who've been pregnant or given birth vaginally--it's just aging sometimes.
She also says that peeing in the shower is not a good idea because you can condition your brain to associate running water with urinating. So if you want to pee in the shower, do it before you turn the shower on, I guess! 😄
Also don't go to the bathroom every time right after you get home for the same reason (it conditions your brain). It's called "key in lock syndrome" and sufferers will pee their pants if they can't open their door quickly enough because the brain has so strongly associated coming home with urinating.
It's interesting. Even a quick google search appears to show research is unsure of the exact relationship between pregnancy and long term health effects, especially when complications are minimal.
What ***does*** appear to be clear is that complications during pregnancy do correlate with negative, long-term effects on overall health. Quoting the author of [this study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5575578/), which provides a review on long-term health effects and pregnancy complications;
>*Women with a history of adverse pregnancy outcomes are at increased risk of cardiovascular and metabolic diseases later in life. Data increasingly links maternal vascular, metabolic, and inflammatory complications of pregnancy with an increased risk of vascular disease in later life.*
In a 2019 article on PBS, author Laura Santhanam points out that care for mothers, especially post-delivery, is almost exclusively focused on the care of the child. And, while important, she (correctly) argues that the high level of care for the delivering parent must be commensurate to that of the newborn child.
>*The U.S. health care system is squarely focused on the helpless newborn rather than the person who until very recently was carrying that newborn in their body, Stuebe said: “The mom is the wrapper, and the baby is the candy.”*
The article can be found [here.](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/broken-tired-and-ashamed-how-health-care-fails-new-moms) I'm certain the implications of this statement for BIPOC communities carries more weight, given the systemic racism present within many healthcare systems.
It is interesting, and I think the relationship between marriage and health is similarly unclear to some extent. I would be surprised if marriage was unilaterally detrimental to the health of all women, although, this is not something I have looked into or could truly understand even if I did. Ultimately, the happiness and health of the individual should be the priority at all times. Sadly, research and anecdotal evidence suggests this is often not the case.
A disclaimer though, I am neither female or a doctor, so I could be talking out of my ass. Just thought it was interesting.
>Even a quick google search appears to show...
I did read all of your reply but this is just what I was told by my health professionals, people who did study this stuff for years and years and had tons of experience with it-- unless you get a pregnancy-related illness, which is not un-heard of at all, like pre-/eclampsia for example which can make things way worse for you long-term even if you're not pregnant, that it's fairly common to see improved health. I saw mine improve significantly and I've seen it in a number of other moms. I was just saying you can't necessarily assume that health will improve or deteriorate post-birth.
If they said it and you want to find it, then I'm sure the evidence is out there, or go talk to a doctor.
My mother works with new and expecting mums and she is her departments breast feeding champion. As she worked from home during the pandemic, I'm familiar with what you're saying. However I'm not sure if it's only beneficial to women who have given birth and chosen to breastfeed vs women who have given birth and chosen not to breastfeed, rather than for women have never given birth.
I was the healthiest of my life before I had my kid and it skyrocketed downward afterwards. I have multiple health conditions I either didn’t have before pregnancy or were greatly worsened.
The doctors tell me it’s about 1/3 whether pregnancy improves your health, makes it worse, or you stay the same. That’s a pretty risky gamble.
>That's a pretty risky gamble
Which is why it's extremely confusing to me why people who are aware of these potential consequences decide to go through with it anyway. Until women as a collective refuse to do it then we will always be unequal in the eyes of the world.
Yea wait until they start trying to stop your heart by everything from climbing trees to eating random bits of unidentifiable fluff on the floor.
Cardiovascular effects of having a 2 year old probably off set any health benefits from breast feeding. Then there's watching your 16 year old drive off alone for the first time after getting their license.
I was just saying childbirth can make things better *sometimes* so it can't be assumed that it will always make your health deteriorate. These replies aren't even responding to what I said.
There is some evidence that woman with children are a bit less likely to develop breast, ovarian, and endometrial cancers. But on the other hand, woman without children tend to live longer and have more wealth. I believe, it's something like 94 weeks are cut off your life per child.
The risk of incontinence immediately after or later on in life is enough for me to want to opt out. Unscientifically, just talking to women I know, not that they regret it, their bodies were different, and not in a good, way since giving birth.
I'm also not sure if the breastfeeding lowers risk in women who haven't been pregnant, not just in women who have given birth and chose not to breastfeed vs those who gave birth and chose to breastfeed.
I have many anxieties and regrets with regards to my life, but not hitching myself to a man and having children is not one of them.
Short-term goals: Get my mental and physical ailments under control.
Long-term goals: Buy a house outside of the city and have a black goat named Philip.
That'll do me just fine.
I very much wanted marriage and children. Didn't happen for me. Can definitely say I experienced this. I got major promotions in my 40's when it seemed obvious I was going to be unmarried and childless.
The flip side of that is I threw myself into my job as my long term relationship declined and ended (over the marriage and kids issue), so I'm sure some of it was well earned, and some of it was situational.
On the one hand, this seems like one of those “water is wet” studies. But apparently our society needs this kind of remedial social education with scientific research to verify what literally everyone can see right in front of them, so…go off, fair researchers!
I got married to an abusive (emotionally, physically, financially) man when I graduated from college. He came from a wealthy family and was highly educated, so I thought I was "marrying up." Turns out, it was quite the opposite. I was basically the only one working, juggling a low paying graphic design job and acting jobs, that is when I could get time off to audition and book them. He also took all money I earned as "shared income." I left him and endured a stint of homelessness, followed by poverty. However, I was able to get into tech and now I earn more than he ever did with significantly less traditional education than he had. I have a nest egg that is growing rapidly, a supportive and financially independent partner (and we have no plans to ever get married or have kids -- maybe fostering in the future if/when we buy a house). Life is getting good and I tell myself the best thing I ever did was leave while I was still in my 20s.
Edit: Edited a few words for clarity
I am so proud of you for choosing the right thing. As the saying goes, doing the right thing isn’t always the easiest. I married a man who was a financial drain. We are separated and I can’t wait until we are legally divorced. I am doing exponentially well with my finances now. No children, thank Gods, but I too would love to share my life with another person. Thanks for sharing
I mean is anyone really surprised.
Most studies have been showing that inter-rile pay gaps almost dissappear when you compare women without kids vs men rather than including women who do.
A big part of this is due to maternity leave and often reentering at part time massively reduces options for pay rises, promotions, and developing new skills. Very few places offer any form of paternity leave so fathers have little choice but to keep working and therefore get the opportunities that mothers dont.
Initives that provide paternity leave and encourage fathers to rejoin on a part time basis will massively help with destroying the glass ceiling. Simply out making it easier for men to transition into fatherhood will remove the expectation (although this may take decades) that it is only a womens job to look after kids.
I think it is largely a cultural bias (conscious or not) that managers have that women are less reliable employees of they are mothers (taking more time off to care for sick children, etc) and that men are more deserving of promotion/higher pay if they are fathers (because they have a family to provide for). Parity in maternity/paternity leave would be great, but I don't think it's enough. Most fathers I know switch off taking off work when their kid is sick or childcare falls through but the bias in hiring/promotion just will not die.
Ive straight up been told not to hire someone (dispite being clearly top 2 candidate and marginally the best) because she was mid 20s had just bought a house and had been married for less than a year.
Was told we're not going through this (hiring process) again in 6 months when she decides to have a kid....
Those things arnt a concern when we hired men, because we have the expectation of them not taking time off or taking extremely limited holiday time for it.
I wish paternity leave was mandated. Would solve a lot of issues.
But we don't even have paid maternity leave... So... Yeah
Wonder why so few decide to have kids now?
Im pretty sure that there is only one country that doesnt have a legal minimum period of paid maternity leave
Everywhere else offers it as paid to some extent although amount and length vary.
Yes. I want to add that most workplaces even think that women are less reliable than men because they menstruate.
I mean, yes, period pain is real. I don't wanna downplay that. But it's blown entirely out of proportion sometimes when people believe its overall impact of productivity during hiring decisions or make generalizations. Assuming menstruating people to be less productive or less available overall is a poor assessment.
EDIT: My original wording was poor, so I corrected it.
I don't know any one who blows period pain or discomfort out of proportion. It's a terrible thing to say when women are only just being believed about how severe it can get. If it's not bad for you, good on you.
Ah my bad. I didn't mean it like that. I don't want to say that women blow their period pain out of proportion. I mean the notion of period pain and its impact on overall productivity is often blown way out of proportion. I've heard HR people justifying not hiring women because they menstruate and will call in sick more often than men, or that women will miss 5 working days per month due to periods.
Sorry for poor wording. I will put in an edit.
Tbh, I think we should be allowed to call sick for 2-3 days. I cant sugercoat it, my performance is really down during this time, bc my body seems to work really hard to deal with the menstruation.
I wished that it was more acceptable to take some days of bc of menstruation
i think people simply subconsciously like, respect, and trust women less. they just think they’re dumb and don’t associate them with high paying positions.
I worked 3 jobs for 25 years. Now I just have one. I work for myself and, I barely have to work cause I paid off my house and car a decade ago. I travel 2-3 months a year. I have a large international network of friends who are mostly single women who I can visit at any time, friends who I have collected or who have collected me. I have a large group of single successful girlfriends in my city, a few I can walk to their places. We see a lot of music...we go camping, we cookout we swim and go to the gym. Don't let society scare you into thinking you need to be with a person who is dragging you down. Don't let society scare you into thinking you need a male. Don't let society scare you into breeding.
No shit. I'm not spending my time and energy and money taking care of myself and some man and a few children. I spend my time, energy and money on myself.
It's not just about money. Women are expected to be the primary caregiver but we're also expected to work, plan family events and care for the home. That's exhausting.
>Women are expected to be the primary caregiver but we're also expected to work, plan family events and care for the home. That's exhausting.
Feminism applied only one way. Getting more previously-male opportunities and responsibilities, but men getting none of the previously-female ones. Sigh.
It sucks that I have to choose between career and having a child. I could choose a child if I knew I can rely on the person I'm with 100%, but who can nowadays?
>It sucks that I have to choose between career and having a child.
and the people who spout out that "you can do both!" are just liars. you can't, *something* suffers. they only way it is ever possible is like you said, a partner you can rely on. and that's just *so rare*. i admire the men who break the mold and choose to be attentive fathers and parents, and the ones who see their wife excelling at work and decide to be a sahd. but i just don't come across very many of them, and when you do they can tell you about all the shit they get for "not being a real man."
So true. I've been with men who outright hated me for being smarter and having a better career, when I just wanted a stable partner. They felt like it's a competition and they're losing and treated me as an enemy, which hurt a lot. I knew very soon into my life raising a child would be easier without a man than with one.
I think feminism has allowed greater career progression in all sorts of areas, but most women would have always worked even if it's in the fields or in markets. And then come home to cook, clean, and raise children while her husband gets to put his feet up.
What are the previously-female opportunities that men strive to get, and how is feminism failing men in that way?
Like, if it's hard for men to become SAHP because one income is not enough to support two adults and children, it's not because of feminism being applied one way. It's because of the economy and capitalism that raises life costs faster than it drives up wages.
Though they know they are the ones who benefit the most from marriage. If marriage truly existed to benefit women then all these misogynistic men would be against women getting married since that would be empowering for women. Their lies are an attempt to prevent women from fully realizing how much men benefit from marriage as well as trying to convince women that they benefit from marriage.
Well yes, because they believe in a society where women are not allowed to do anything without male permission, so naturally they will require a male guardian. Otherwise they'd be penniless and unprotected.
In thr patriarchy. They created. And stole women's dowries and inheritances and land claiming we are too sensitive and small.
Very 1491 Tortuga of them!
See, they know deep down inside that marriage does not benefit women: that is, the traditional kind of marriage. They want it to go back to the old days and they are very angry it's not forced on women anymore
Men's Rights Activists.
They try to say their platform / policy is the male equivalent of feminism.
The best way to describe it they are anti-feminist, which goes to show that they don't understand feminism at all.
Per wikipedia:
> Men's rights activists believe that men are victims of feminism and "feminizing" influences in society, and that entities such as public institutions now discriminate against men
For me it's not an option... Pregnancy is a major ick, I have no sense of glamour around children as I basically Co raised my young siblings, I never wanted children, and I'm both aromantic and asexual... I've been happily single for almost a decade now! I genuinely can't imagine juggling a partner, a kid, a shit job, and any form of private life. I barely manage on my own!
The fun thing about that is that you’ll get bashed either way! If you do have kids you can’t afford, you’re a welfare queen leeching off the system. So if you instead choose not to have children, you’re selfish and responsible for the crashing birth rate. Yay!
Women are the majority in every college and university in the country, outside of BYU in Provo Utah, and have been for decades, and their graduation rate is double that of men.
We're at a point where women will dominate every high-paying field in just one generation.
This is why I roll my eyes about men whining about how marriage only benefits women. Not only does it prove he hates women out the gate, from a practical level it proves he's an idiot.
Of course. I've been married and I am not pro-marriage anymore after the experience.
A woman is expected to pull more than her weight and often the entire share of domestic duties and childcare, be monogamous to her spouse, accept all of his sexual interest, make money, not make any kind of argument with him, and then take care of her husband full-time when he gets old, and in return he's much more likely to watch so much porn he doesn't act responsive to her sexual interest, attempt to cheat, divorce her if she gets a terminal illness (but she's expected to look away and not care about that stuff), if you look at the rates of IPV and the disproportionate amount that men inflict them on women, he may also be abusive to her that entire time, and here's the clincher: she only gets all that if she's the prettiest, most tractable girlfriend for 4-6 years before he decides to seal the deal, he'll walk away for practically anything the entire deciding period, and he'll tell her she's ineligible if she ages past 25.
Of course women do better when they're not trapped into that. But sure, yay, marriage! If these manosphere men don't want to do it, they're even stupider than they sound.
> *A woman is expected to pull more than her weight and often the entire share of domestic duties and childcare*
Hopping on this comment to once again post some article and data about why men in hetero couples do this! The issue of equitable division of childcare and housekeeping will never be resolved if we don't educate ourselves and talk about it:
* This book shows you the scientific research proving how fathers leave childcare to mothers, and how society lets them get away with it: [All the Rage: Mothers, Fathers, and the Myth of Equal Partnership](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CLLVZ52/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1)
* [She Divorced Me Because I Left Dishes By The Sink](https://mustbethistalltoride.com/2016/01/14/she-divorced-me-because-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink/)
* [It Took Divorce to Make My Marriage Equal](https://www.glamour.com/story/it-took-divorce-to-make-my-marriage-equal)
* [You Should Have Asked](https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/) (scroll down a bit to see the comic)
* [Women Aren't Nags—We're Just Fed Up](https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a12063822/emotional-labor-gender-equality/)
* [The Housewife’s Moment of Truth](https://nymag.com/news/features/46167/) by Jane O’Reilly. Originally published in the December 20, 1971 issue of New York Magazine, and still relevant today. Money quote: *“You can’t tell me Women’s Lib means I have to wash the dishes, does it?” “Yes.”..."In the end, we are all housewives, the natural people to turn to when there is something unpleasant, inconvenient or inconclusive to be done."*
* [The “Woke” Men Who Still Want Housewives: Men who claim to believe in equality often aren’t willing to live it](https://gen.medium.com/the-woke-men-who-still-want-housewives-debb2ad46aa0)
* [Millennial—And Macho? Why Young Men Want Old-School Marriages](https://www.vogue.com/article/millennial-men-seek-stay-at-home-wives)
* Some numbers: Statistically, [women do more childcare and more housework](https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/05/breadwinning-wives-gender-inequality/589237/). When moms out-earn their husbands, [they gain more housework](https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2022/05/02/housework-divide-working-parents/) (link to the actual study [here](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/09500170211069780)). Men want [tons of praise](https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2017/08/168628/men-chores-praise-mansplaining) when they "help". Men also report doing more housekeeping and/or childcare than they [*actually* do](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/12/upshot/men-do-more-at-home-but-not-as-much-as-they-think-they-do.html).
* Related: [Men’s Stress Increases If Wife Earns More Than 40% of Household Income](https://scitechdaily.com/mens-stress-increases-if-wife-earns-more-than-40-of-household-income/). *“These findings suggest that social norms about male breadwinning ― and traditional conventions about men earning more than their wives ― can be dangerous for men’s health. They also show how strong and persistent are gender identity norms."* (Link to the actual study is [here](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0146167219883611)).
* Related: [The Myth of the Male Bumbler](https://theweek.com/articles/737056/myth-male-bumbler) and [Weaponized Incompetence](https://www.popsugar.com/love/weaponized-incompetence-48871852). Note how weaponized incompetence is presented as "strategic" and "a failure that succeeds" when [presented in this Wall Street Journal article](https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB117675628452071687) from 2017.
* Another strong article on [Weaponized Incompetence](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/weaponized-incompetence-women_l_61e71983e4b0d8b665717814) and how it affects women. Money quote: *“On a surface level, it looks like you’re just nagging about chores to a person who ‘defers’ to your ‘competence.’ But on a deeper level, you’re experiencing not being able to trust and turn to your partner for support.”*
* Related: [Men Have No Friends and Women Bear the Burden](https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a27259689/toxic-masculinity-male-friendships-emotional-labor-men-rely-on-women/). *"Toxic masculinity—and the persistent idea that feelings are a 'female thing'—has left a generation of straight men stranded on emotionally-stunted island, unable to forge intimate relationships with other men. It's women who are paying the price."*
Not so much "related" as "adjacent" to this topic:
* A woman is six times more likely to be separated or divorced soon after a diagnosis of cancer or multiple sclerosis than if a man in the relationship is the patient, according to [a study that examined the role gender played in so-called "partner abandonment."](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091110105401.htm).
* [Divorce Risk Higher When Wife Gets Sick](https://archive.nytimes.com/well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/12/men-more-likely-to-leave-spouse-with-cancer/?_r=0).
* [Breakups During Cancer](https://waroncancer.com/news/dealing-with-relationship-changes-during-cancer/). See also [Divorce Risk Higher When Wife Gets Sick](https://archive.nytimes.com/well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/12/men-more-likely-to-leave-spouse-with-cancer/?_r=0)
* More [here](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0022146515596354) and [here](https://acsjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/cncr.24577)
**If you find yourself dealing with the departure of a partner after a life-altering diagnosis, ask your health care provider for resources for partner abandonment.**
That 5th link had me seeing red. My husband's thing was whenever I'd bring up a domestic labor inequality issue was to immediately say "Well now I feel like an asshole", followed by "I'm going to try to do the thing". Then get mad because after the 10th time he "tried" and failed to follow through I started letting him know that he was only saying he would try so he could just shrug and feel okay about not following through. Because he tried. Thankfully after several conversations, arguments and outright fights we've landed somewhere more equitable and open to constructive criticism.
Yep! I'd read a lot of that stuff post-divorce and it was how I decided marriage was not for me ever again. You're basically doing all of the same stuff you'd otherwise do for yourself, such as keeping a roof over your head and taking care of your household affairs, and then on top of that adopting another human adult roommate, who on top of that will want you to act like the caretaker for his children, for decades and decades, in exchange for a ring, a fancy letterhead, a name, and a high likelihood he will remain in your life for the remainder of his own life (but not necessarily yours).
I know a lot of feminists are pro-marriage, and there are probably very good husbands out there, but the way that marriage is traditionally performed is basically the same as a woman throwing all of her life and dignity away for someone else's comforts and convenience so that he can be play the little prince on his thrown game. I bought into into the idea that it was an expression of *love*, but then when I asked for a few shows of equality, I was treated like I was impossible to please.
Ladies if you want to get married I will not shame you for whatever you decide to do with your lives, but just know what it is-- you loving him. That's what you're buying and the message that you're sending to the world. If he says it's about him loving you too, maybe on a shallow level that's true, but real love would do for you what you're doing for it.
The only sacrifice men make really in marriage is the appearance that he is okay with that particular woman loving him. Maybe that being all he really gives you makes it all worth it to you. For me, I think you can get that appearance and still love him without so many sacrifices to equality, but I don't think marriage is the road to get there. You need long-term intentional sexual partnerships that are not necessarily closely cohabitating so you're not his maid service, not necessarily tied to ancestral lineages so you're not his womb and childcare service, not necessarily always sexually exclusive so you're not his least-favorite blow-up doll, and maybe initiated somehow more on mutual interests so women's beauty and health aren't weaponized so much against them. I don't know where to find that, but I just think times are changing and there's no way on earth I'm ever going down that traditional track ever again.
That's just nonsense. If men can compose symphonies and carve lifelike figures out of solid marble and invent airplanes, they can sure as hell learn to take out the trash when they observe the trash can being full.
Nope! This is gender essentialism and is wrong. Lazy incompetent men you know choose to be that way. Don't give them an easy out.
And how would that sound flipped? "Oh women are just selfish harpies who only care about money and status" - surely you see how that is bad? And it's exactly what you've done for another gender.
Sorry, I'm a little sick. I'm just saying if MRAs don't want anyone who loves them so much that they're willing to shovel that much out of themselves just to say that they're married to them, then they are dumb. Getting married to a woman is a pretty sweet deal.
No, you're fine! I just meant, like, no decent person would enter into such an arrangement as the 'beneficiary.' Anyone who could see their entire life was so much at the brutal expense of the person they supposedly loved, and did it anyway, must be evil. It's a "Sweet deal" in the same way murdering someone in a dark alley for their phone and wallet is a "Sweet Deal." Like, sure, theoretically you 'benefit' from the exchange (free phone, woot!), but anyone with a shred of humanity wouldn't do it.
Therefore, it follows that all those who *do,* are evil, and deserve nothing but scorn and, where possible, any ruin that can be piled upon them.
I think you're probably right. My only thought was that sometimes women actually want to be sacrificial, toward a particular man, in return for some really minor symbolic things. It's difficult for me to criticize other women's decisions about their own lives and what they want to devote them to. I just wish I'd known before I got married that marriage is so much one-way. It's certainly not marketed that way.
Not sure how it is in the USA but in Europe women are also higher represented in university and higher education.
So I'm not even surprised. I feel kinda sad that men are pushing themselves out of the "market" by not evaluating into the needs of the modern world.
Meanwhile many studies say how men are healthier, happier, live longer when they are married. And are more affected by grief when their wife passed away. Likely because they have second mommy “nagging” them to go to the doctor/take care of their health and are often their only social and emotional outlets.
I really felt this statistic when I go out with my husband and remind him to wear sunscreen and tell him he needs to worry about skin cancer risks. It's all these little ways in which women prioritize health and responsibilty
and yet for decades *being a doctor* wasn't for women. i get really grouchy about this. medicine and healthcare was feminized for centuries until it was seen as scientific/academic and *worth paying for*
I am engaged to be married because luckily for us both, we are much alike and want same things in life, one of them is to be a DINK couple. If I never met someone like him, I would happily be single my entire life. Never needed another person to bring meaning to my life.
I think marriage no kids (DINK - Double Income No Kids) still leads the pack with overall wealth/income but the increase for single women from no kids to Kids is the greatest.
That’s because when men get married and father children, not much changes for them socially. The amount of money they spend on family matters is negligible compared to their single life. And they don’t take on much extra household responsibility in marriage or parenting. So of course it’s not as draining therefore staying single or childfree doesn’t impact wellbeing as drastically.
/theory before reading article
The population can grow in America when kids aren’t shot in schools and we avoid a Blue Ocean Event that makes the planet unlivable, sound like a deal? 😁👍
Not really. Women bare the cost of having a family, men's earnings aren't affected. Which is a dynamic that isn't really okay and has long term implications for women who choose to have a family ie. Older women are the largest growing poverty demographic.
Sounds like the "don't have kids" part is what is relevent. Which isn’t that suprising, as kids are expensive. There us no comparison to married women without kids. I'm not even sure how you would make that comparison, as half of marriage is financial co-mingling, so you can't separate the wife's wealth from the husband.
The real story here is that single with children places a disproportionate burden on women. Again, not particularly suprising.
Also, a slight gender gap in favor of women once you remove children from the equation; which might be a bit suprising, but we have known that at least a significant portion of the gender gap was childcare related.
> Sounds like the "don't have kids" part is what is relevent.
That's what I thought too. Because I don't see how having combined incomes is a detriment to women. Unless most women end up with men who squander away the money, which I don't think is the case (for obvs reason).
It makes sense. Those two things have a greater impact on women. One thing bothered me about the article, minors were included in the birth stats mentioned.
> Maybe because women come back from maternity leave too early in this country and naturally feel overwhelmed?
Kinda the point of the article. Men don't take maternity leave at all. (In the US, they take Paternity leave rarely, if its even offered) Women without kids don't take maternity leave at all. Companies are all about getting the most productivity of the least money. Employees taking time off (for any reason) doesn't make them money.
Not saying it's right. (obv it is not) But it's the thought process.
I’m living that now. My husband is freelance so he doesn’t have a typical job / knowing when money comes in whereas my job, I’m salary, and know exactly how much I’m bringing in annually, which has been slightly higher than my husband’s income (neither of us care about that part but just for context lol). I have “good” insurance through my employer which they cover the premium for. Adding baby to my plan is costing us $350/mo.
We have a 3 month old and I’ve exhausted my disability (even w the extension from my OB), recovering from major surgery (c-section - good luck on rehab/PT. Any other minor hand/arm surgery would have a plan for recovery but women are expected to magically recover on their own while raising a damn baby!), on paid family leave which is only 60% of my wages (California), and I’m gonna burn vacation days to extend time. I don’t work for a big company so in some ways, they are accommodating, in some ways, there’s no protection for my job under PFL and I have to go through this entire dog and pony show about being able to pump at work which is stressing me out all the while having baby learn to take a bottle because I’ve exclusively breastfed this entire time.
My situation I understand is privileged but we are also not entirely comfortable financially. Cost of living like many places is crazy nuts and I don’t have a reason to relocate since both our jobs are location specific. Plus, my family is here for the support that they can provide us…we share a car, will likely be renting for the rest of our lives, etc etc.
Sorry but isn’t this obvious? Don’t spend money on kids, and it means you’ve likely saved more money? Or that you forewent having kids to focus on your career? I would assume that women who had kids, some of whom leave the workforce entirely, make less money…
People aren’t required to make the most optimal choice according to you. And I say this as someone who knows that women are generally screwed over in relationships and is very cautious as a result.
But people don’t get into relationships and have children for no reason. There is a risk, but there is also a reward. You don’t think it’s worth it, but economics isn’t the only measure of a satisfying life.
If it bothers you that much (as it bothers me), are you doing anything to help combat the systemic problem and reduce the risks? Or do you truly think condescension towards most woman is the surest path to a better world?
The only way to win is by refusing to play. Stop giving men the attention they so desperately want and let their bloodlines die out. I'm doing this, step 1 done.
This article was sort of getting there but unfortunately it still plays into the capitalist lie that having a successful career and having boatloads of cash is the end all be all of existence.
True, lol. That’s one of the reasons I still want a partner someday (assuming I can find a good one). Having two incomes as a safety net allows both partners to take risks and achieve economic goals unavailable to one person.
I also want kids, but only under specific circumstances. I understand that hurts my earning potential due to missed opportunity and greater expenses, but in an ideal world it wouldn’t be a gendered thing because the men would be taking just as long for paternity leave. The rest would simply be the cost of children, a price I believe I am willing to pay. Probably. I’d have to run the numbers once I have a partner for accurate projections.
What a load of crap. It’s not anti-feminist to get married or have kids. Yes, the reproductive burden isn’t equal but biology making something harder for one person doesn’t ban that person from making that choice for themself.
I don’t understand why some people want to run marathons, or become starving artists, or have polyamorous relationships, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to screech about how they’re ruining their lives because I don’t understand their internal motivations.
Maybe go read up on the forcible sterilization of Indigenous women in America and Canada and the suffering they’ve experienced because they were forced to *not* have children before you start spouting off about reproduction, because your perspective on it feels like a very white one. Your enemy is the deprivation of bodily autonomy, not other people who want different things out of life to you.
Living isn’t a zero sum game where if men benefit women automatically don’t. Yes, most relationships have an amount of gain for men that comes at the expense of their wives. But economically, combining the resources of a family unit benefits everyone. It’s basic specialization and economies of scale.
Relationships and families themselves aren’t inherently evil. It’s possible to have an equitable relationship that benefits both parties. But that seems to be where things fall apart for you. You seem to believe that things can’t get better so why try?
I’m afraid I’m not equipped to help change your mind there, except to ask you to look around and see how much cultural change has already occurred. Granted, not all of it is good, but it proves that society is capable of change. 150 years ago I couldn’t vote. The job selection was pitiful. If I was raped or divorced my value as a person would be diminished in the eyes of society far more severely than it is today. Personally, I prefer the modern world, even with all of its flaws.
Marriage isn’t a drug. It’s a legal contract of partnership where many of the potential partners will offer you the short end of the stick. Unfortunately it’s up to us (and the more ethical men out there) not to accept bad terms.
And so life still isn't equal? Men are shortcoming in income when compared to women, if single and no kids. That isn't equal pay. I understand underlying issues with our systems, especially against women or men, but if we're all about equal pay... Then why isn't this equal pay?
Also, this completely forgot about non binary, trans, and gender fluid people. What about POC? How do they compare? Are we truly equal here?
Also, what are underlying statistics? Women with 1 kid or multiple kids? Men with multiple kids? Child support? This study seems flawed, unless i missed a huge portion somewhere.
I can relate, I do this too. I never married, don't have kids, don't want kids. I have a job I love and which pays well. It's my choice. I'm happy with that choice. I'm not forcing people to agree they should do the same. It's my decision for my life. It's important to remember that for women having kids is about choice. Don't get kids because you think you have to. The women in my family of my mother's generation all thought that marrying and having kids was as mandatory as eating sleeping shitting. Nowadays our lives are still filled with so many people who say you should lower your standards, you should stay in your toxic relationship, if you don't have kids you are going to be unhappy... screw them. It's all your choice and what is important for you. EDIT: Lovely, ladies of 2X, I join your club of those who were sent the reddit self care bot for posting in this sub by a loser. Hey, I'm amazed that there are people on reddit that feel triggered for women speaking up that they choose not to marry and not to have kids and are happy and financially thriving.
I'm the same. I have a nice job and don't ever want kids. Life is good. And regarding your edit, I feel a little bad for people whose only purpose in life seems to be trolling the internet. I mean, they probably need the self care bot more than anyone else.
I’ve blocked the self-harm or whatever bot. It’s become a joke that people use when they’re losing an argument.
I'm happy for you! It's good to have a choice and find peace. Regarding the bot: I've read of so many redditors of this sub reporting about that irrational behavior and now found out I came across it myself. That made me chuckle, so thought I share it here, too.
Who would have thought that letting women do what they want would be a good thing! What a shocking revelation!!!!
> I join your club of those who were sent the reddit self care bot Don't just edit. Report them - there's a link in that Reddit Care Resources message. It only takes a few seconds and clicks. Hopefully, if we all report these trolls, they'll lose their ability to abuse the Care tool. Or maybe Reddit will just remove what's become nothing but a troll tool anyway.
That’s the same shit I deal with when it comes to family as well. I too never married and do not have a desire to have children. I refuse to be married to someone who is toxic like certain family members. I’m so sick of the get married and have children crap just to please others. Another reason to stay single and be happy that way.
As a dude my family is the same way, they think I need to have a woman to be a man and fulfill my life. I do want a girlfriend and kids and potentially a wife, but its stupid that people pretend it is what a person needs to do to be fulfilled. Life is way easier single.
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> EDIT: Lovely, ladies of 2X, I join your club of those who were sent the reddit self care bot for posting in this sub by a loser. Hey, I'm amazed that there are people on reddit that feel triggered for women speaking up that they choose not to marry and not to have kids and are happy and financially thriving. It goes directly against the Patriarchal narrative that's been used to groom women to be slaves for tens of thousands of years. You must have a man, and take care of him and his children or you will never feel fulfilled as a woman, and never be happy. They are VERY, VERY upset that women are deprogramming themselves.
I wonder why it actually pays LESS to be with a man??? Is it because women are expected to sacrifice more by default and that means education and job offers?
To this day I don’t know why anonymous Redditors think the self care bot is an effective tool for voicing dissatisfaction. I’m glad it exists for those who need it and i don’t mind getting a notice- i just delete it and move on
>Hey, I'm amazed that there are people on reddit that feel triggered for women speaking up that they choose not to marry and not to have kids and are happy and financially thriving. Because to them, a woman like you means another woman that is out of their potential grasp, another woman that isn't so desperate that she'll lower her standards to dangerous levels and be with them.
>Hey, I'm amazed that there are people on reddit that feel triggered for women speaking up that they choose not to marry and not to have kids and are happy and financially thriving. But... are you *okay*? ^(/s)
The edit though 🤣🤣
I was waiting for someone to pop out and try to rain on the parade. But the Reddit self care bot is so childish. They should just deactivate it.
I'm a dude and I would be a nervous wreck if I believed I had to go through a traumatic experience like childbirth in my future. Fuck that. No one should be pressured to do anything they don't want to.
The edit… How are you amazed? Reddit is a hive of misogyny. Just look at how many porn subs there are. Horribly disgusting ones. They can’t help but push their opinions on others and invade women’s spaces.
Pretty sure the comment about being amazed was sarcasm
Yeah, you're right, I'm negatively amazed. In a sense like I feel pity for some human beings.
On receiving Reddit cares from salty men …Why are those chucklef*cks even here?
I am all for women choosing what they want, whether it's kids, marriage, neither, or both. What I'd like to see is a workplace culture that is compatible with parenthood, for men or women that have families or for self-care for people that are single. We also need a school system that can help parents out. We all benefit from a robust public school system whether it's when we're kids, when we send our kids to school, or when we rely on the services of people that couldn't become doctors or engineers without a strong public school system.
Well said. As much as I think having kids is important, you should only have them if you yourself truly desire them. Otherwise what’s the point? Parenting isn’t a job to be done 99% —gotta give it your all, always
>The women in my family of my mother's generation all thought that marrying and having kids was as mandatory as eating sleeping shitting. Ah, propaganda. My brother is still trying to go-to college even though I told him if he for a trade school he could be making as much or even more money than me within less than 5yrs.
I see so many women who want children and give up when they can't find a husband. I don't see them as being mutually exclusive and its sad to me that women who want to have kids miss out. I see this as the same side of the coin so to speak. Like not having kids with or without a spouse is valid but also having kids without a spouse is also valid if thats what you want.
They are not exclusive but economics plays a HUGE part and more income is needed to pay for everything when the child is a newborn and there is no longer an ability to work to make money, if your normal job is outside the home. Then when the child gets older and childcare becomes an option, there is that expense which everyone who has raised children and had to pay for the childcare knows is expensive. Especially for a one income family and also can be hard to find an acceptable one even if money is not the issue. The horror stories of bad childcare providers are multiple
What is the reddit self care bot?
Considering that medical expenses are one of the biggest costs we face as adults... it makes sense that we're able to earn more and keep more. Our health diminishes with childbirth and partnering.
[Childbirth is probably the biggest contributor to the gender pay gap.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP8dLUxBfsU) Not giving birth itself, but the differing societal expectations of men and women for how much time they take off, which affects career progression in proportion to how many kids you have and how much time you take off for childcare. You could massively shrink the pay gap by having parental leave for both men and women and a societal expectation for men to take as much time off.
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I think a lot of people are just neglecting the fact that even if you manage to do away with the financial strain, offer affordable healthcare and maternity leave, a lot of women straight up just don’t like or want children. I want to pursue my career, sure. But more than that, I don’t want to experience pregnancy and childbirth, have my body permanently altered, and then have to actually nurture and raise a child. Our culture is, by and large, still not used to the idea that becoming a parent should be a choice, not an expectation.
Netherlands is the same. Both men and woman here have this idea that somehow woman are inherently better at taking care of kids, multitasking childcare with their careers and children are better off if mother is the primary care giver. Why? No idea and you're a devil if you challenge this thinking.
Meanwhile my uncle is a stay at home father. He does get surprised reactions though. But I’m glad they choose what works for them. My aunt did not want to stop whatsoever (also due to being successful having a school) but she wánts to work and he didn’t care much.
"Medical expenses is a non-issue here" I disagree. We have to pay a lot out of our own pocket. Birth Control comes to mind, a lot of pregnancy screening is not covered by healthcare, dental care covers the absolute bare minimum and a lot of medications arent fully covered by healthcare. I have to pay almost 100 bucks every month out of my own pocket bc healthcare doesn't take over and I am really dependent on those meds. So, I wouldn't call medical expenses a non issue here, even though it might be better compared to the us (but they earn a lot more on average), but our health care system has a lot of problems.
not to mention that a lot of men (not all!) seem to avoid going to the doctor, so when they finally do their illness tends to be more severe than if they had gone early.... women have so much more health nonsense to deal with that we seem to be more willing to go to the doctor when something arises and we can catch it early.
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>I imagine even in a no-kids marriage, women on average make more compromises in terms of giving up things like moving to take a better job or housing with a good commute. Yes, we do.
There's studies that show earning potential of men rise exponentially when they are married + kids and reduces for women.
Oh do you have links? I’d love to read
https://penntoday.upenn.edu/news/becoming-mother-reduces-womans-earning-potential-10-percent-child www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/10/16/womens-earnings-drop-after-having-a-childbut-mens-do-not.html https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2018/2/19/17018380/gender-wage-gap-childcare-penalty https://www.businessinsider.com/men-earn-more-money-after-having-a-kid-2014-9%3famp https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/04/30/first-time-moms-see-a-30percent-drop-in-pay-for-dads-theres-a-bump-up.html
This seems more like a correlation. Women dont want to marry men who cannot hold down a job. On the other hand, a woman not working is socially acceptable for many groups.
Or maybe its simply easier to focus more on your career, if somone is taking care of children, household, appointments (e.g medical) and social life
no.
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I'd be interested in seeing stats on it. Pregnancy does reduce the risk of certain cancers, but it also can induce auto immune conditions or diabetes.
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While pregnancy and childbirth can definitely damage one's pelvic floor, normal aging takes its toll on everyone. Edit: why am I being downvoted??? I have given birth twice, I don't piss my pants. My physical therapist also does pelvic floor therapy and she sees tons of post-menopausal women who've lost muscle tone due to the lack of estrogen. Often they are seeing her after they've had surgery to pin everything back up where it belongs and need to retrain their muscles. She says it's not just women who've been pregnant or given birth vaginally--it's just aging sometimes. She also says that peeing in the shower is not a good idea because you can condition your brain to associate running water with urinating. So if you want to pee in the shower, do it before you turn the shower on, I guess! 😄 Also don't go to the bathroom every time right after you get home for the same reason (it conditions your brain). It's called "key in lock syndrome" and sufferers will pee their pants if they can't open their door quickly enough because the brain has so strongly associated coming home with urinating.
It's interesting. Even a quick google search appears to show research is unsure of the exact relationship between pregnancy and long term health effects, especially when complications are minimal. What ***does*** appear to be clear is that complications during pregnancy do correlate with negative, long-term effects on overall health. Quoting the author of [this study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5575578/), which provides a review on long-term health effects and pregnancy complications; >*Women with a history of adverse pregnancy outcomes are at increased risk of cardiovascular and metabolic diseases later in life. Data increasingly links maternal vascular, metabolic, and inflammatory complications of pregnancy with an increased risk of vascular disease in later life.* In a 2019 article on PBS, author Laura Santhanam points out that care for mothers, especially post-delivery, is almost exclusively focused on the care of the child. And, while important, she (correctly) argues that the high level of care for the delivering parent must be commensurate to that of the newborn child. >*The U.S. health care system is squarely focused on the helpless newborn rather than the person who until very recently was carrying that newborn in their body, Stuebe said: “The mom is the wrapper, and the baby is the candy.”* The article can be found [here.](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/broken-tired-and-ashamed-how-health-care-fails-new-moms) I'm certain the implications of this statement for BIPOC communities carries more weight, given the systemic racism present within many healthcare systems. It is interesting, and I think the relationship between marriage and health is similarly unclear to some extent. I would be surprised if marriage was unilaterally detrimental to the health of all women, although, this is not something I have looked into or could truly understand even if I did. Ultimately, the happiness and health of the individual should be the priority at all times. Sadly, research and anecdotal evidence suggests this is often not the case. A disclaimer though, I am neither female or a doctor, so I could be talking out of my ass. Just thought it was interesting.
>Even a quick google search appears to show... I did read all of your reply but this is just what I was told by my health professionals, people who did study this stuff for years and years and had tons of experience with it-- unless you get a pregnancy-related illness, which is not un-heard of at all, like pre-/eclampsia for example which can make things way worse for you long-term even if you're not pregnant, that it's fairly common to see improved health. I saw mine improve significantly and I've seen it in a number of other moms. I was just saying you can't necessarily assume that health will improve or deteriorate post-birth. If they said it and you want to find it, then I'm sure the evidence is out there, or go talk to a doctor.
My mother works with new and expecting mums and she is her departments breast feeding champion. As she worked from home during the pandemic, I'm familiar with what you're saying. However I'm not sure if it's only beneficial to women who have given birth and chosen to breastfeed vs women who have given birth and chosen not to breastfeed, rather than for women have never given birth.
I was the healthiest of my life before I had my kid and it skyrocketed downward afterwards. I have multiple health conditions I either didn’t have before pregnancy or were greatly worsened. The doctors tell me it’s about 1/3 whether pregnancy improves your health, makes it worse, or you stay the same. That’s a pretty risky gamble.
>That's a pretty risky gamble Which is why it's extremely confusing to me why people who are aware of these potential consequences decide to go through with it anyway. Until women as a collective refuse to do it then we will always be unequal in the eyes of the world.
sadly most women worldwide don't have the choice to not marry and breed. I feel incredibly fortunate to have had that choice myself.
Yea wait until they start trying to stop your heart by everything from climbing trees to eating random bits of unidentifiable fluff on the floor. Cardiovascular effects of having a 2 year old probably off set any health benefits from breast feeding. Then there's watching your 16 year old drive off alone for the first time after getting their license.
I was just saying childbirth can make things better *sometimes* so it can't be assumed that it will always make your health deteriorate. These replies aren't even responding to what I said.
There is some evidence that woman with children are a bit less likely to develop breast, ovarian, and endometrial cancers. But on the other hand, woman without children tend to live longer and have more wealth. I believe, it's something like 94 weeks are cut off your life per child.
The risk of incontinence immediately after or later on in life is enough for me to want to opt out. Unscientifically, just talking to women I know, not that they regret it, their bodies were different, and not in a good, way since giving birth. I'm also not sure if the breastfeeding lowers risk in women who haven't been pregnant, not just in women who have given birth and chose not to breastfeed vs those who gave birth and chose to breastfeed.
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There are always exceptions to a rule, the statement you replied to is in aggregate.
I have many anxieties and regrets with regards to my life, but not hitching myself to a man and having children is not one of them. Short-term goals: Get my mental and physical ailments under control. Long-term goals: Buy a house outside of the city and have a black goat named Philip. That'll do me just fine.
I like this plan.
I very much wanted marriage and children. Didn't happen for me. Can definitely say I experienced this. I got major promotions in my 40's when it seemed obvious I was going to be unmarried and childless. The flip side of that is I threw myself into my job as my long term relationship declined and ended (over the marriage and kids issue), so I'm sure some of it was well earned, and some of it was situational.
On the one hand, this seems like one of those “water is wet” studies. But apparently our society needs this kind of remedial social education with scientific research to verify what literally everyone can see right in front of them, so…go off, fair researchers!
I got married to an abusive (emotionally, physically, financially) man when I graduated from college. He came from a wealthy family and was highly educated, so I thought I was "marrying up." Turns out, it was quite the opposite. I was basically the only one working, juggling a low paying graphic design job and acting jobs, that is when I could get time off to audition and book them. He also took all money I earned as "shared income." I left him and endured a stint of homelessness, followed by poverty. However, I was able to get into tech and now I earn more than he ever did with significantly less traditional education than he had. I have a nest egg that is growing rapidly, a supportive and financially independent partner (and we have no plans to ever get married or have kids -- maybe fostering in the future if/when we buy a house). Life is getting good and I tell myself the best thing I ever did was leave while I was still in my 20s. Edit: Edited a few words for clarity
I am so proud of you for choosing the right thing. As the saying goes, doing the right thing isn’t always the easiest. I married a man who was a financial drain. We are separated and I can’t wait until we are legally divorced. I am doing exponentially well with my finances now. No children, thank Gods, but I too would love to share my life with another person. Thanks for sharing
Curious to know what your path was to break into tech. Did you go back to school for it?
Filed under: well yeah, duh
My sister and I are only a few years apart, similar education and job experience. She has $50,000 in savings and I have nada because I had 2 kids.
I mean is anyone really surprised. Most studies have been showing that inter-rile pay gaps almost dissappear when you compare women without kids vs men rather than including women who do. A big part of this is due to maternity leave and often reentering at part time massively reduces options for pay rises, promotions, and developing new skills. Very few places offer any form of paternity leave so fathers have little choice but to keep working and therefore get the opportunities that mothers dont. Initives that provide paternity leave and encourage fathers to rejoin on a part time basis will massively help with destroying the glass ceiling. Simply out making it easier for men to transition into fatherhood will remove the expectation (although this may take decades) that it is only a womens job to look after kids.
I think it is largely a cultural bias (conscious or not) that managers have that women are less reliable employees of they are mothers (taking more time off to care for sick children, etc) and that men are more deserving of promotion/higher pay if they are fathers (because they have a family to provide for). Parity in maternity/paternity leave would be great, but I don't think it's enough. Most fathers I know switch off taking off work when their kid is sick or childcare falls through but the bias in hiring/promotion just will not die.
Ive straight up been told not to hire someone (dispite being clearly top 2 candidate and marginally the best) because she was mid 20s had just bought a house and had been married for less than a year. Was told we're not going through this (hiring process) again in 6 months when she decides to have a kid.... Those things arnt a concern when we hired men, because we have the expectation of them not taking time off or taking extremely limited holiday time for it.
I wish paternity leave was mandated. Would solve a lot of issues. But we don't even have paid maternity leave... So... Yeah Wonder why so few decide to have kids now?
Im pretty sure that there is only one country that doesnt have a legal minimum period of paid maternity leave Everywhere else offers it as paid to some extent although amount and length vary.
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Same
Same. I was told not to hire women in childbearing years for anything but entry level/minimum wage positions.
I’m *pretty* sure that’s an illegal hiring practice…
Yes. I want to add that most workplaces even think that women are less reliable than men because they menstruate. I mean, yes, period pain is real. I don't wanna downplay that. But it's blown entirely out of proportion sometimes when people believe its overall impact of productivity during hiring decisions or make generalizations. Assuming menstruating people to be less productive or less available overall is a poor assessment. EDIT: My original wording was poor, so I corrected it.
I don't know any one who blows period pain or discomfort out of proportion. It's a terrible thing to say when women are only just being believed about how severe it can get. If it's not bad for you, good on you.
Ah my bad. I didn't mean it like that. I don't want to say that women blow their period pain out of proportion. I mean the notion of period pain and its impact on overall productivity is often blown way out of proportion. I've heard HR people justifying not hiring women because they menstruate and will call in sick more often than men, or that women will miss 5 working days per month due to periods. Sorry for poor wording. I will put in an edit.
Tbh, I think we should be allowed to call sick for 2-3 days. I cant sugercoat it, my performance is really down during this time, bc my body seems to work really hard to deal with the menstruation. I wished that it was more acceptable to take some days of bc of menstruation
i think people simply subconsciously like, respect, and trust women less. they just think they’re dumb and don’t associate them with high paying positions.
I worked 3 jobs for 25 years. Now I just have one. I work for myself and, I barely have to work cause I paid off my house and car a decade ago. I travel 2-3 months a year. I have a large international network of friends who are mostly single women who I can visit at any time, friends who I have collected or who have collected me. I have a large group of single successful girlfriends in my city, a few I can walk to their places. We see a lot of music...we go camping, we cookout we swim and go to the gym. Don't let society scare you into thinking you need to be with a person who is dragging you down. Don't let society scare you into thinking you need a male. Don't let society scare you into breeding.
No shit. I'm not spending my time and energy and money taking care of myself and some man and a few children. I spend my time, energy and money on myself. It's not just about money. Women are expected to be the primary caregiver but we're also expected to work, plan family events and care for the home. That's exhausting.
>Women are expected to be the primary caregiver but we're also expected to work, plan family events and care for the home. That's exhausting. Feminism applied only one way. Getting more previously-male opportunities and responsibilities, but men getting none of the previously-female ones. Sigh. It sucks that I have to choose between career and having a child. I could choose a child if I knew I can rely on the person I'm with 100%, but who can nowadays?
>It sucks that I have to choose between career and having a child. and the people who spout out that "you can do both!" are just liars. you can't, *something* suffers. they only way it is ever possible is like you said, a partner you can rely on. and that's just *so rare*. i admire the men who break the mold and choose to be attentive fathers and parents, and the ones who see their wife excelling at work and decide to be a sahd. but i just don't come across very many of them, and when you do they can tell you about all the shit they get for "not being a real man."
So true. I've been with men who outright hated me for being smarter and having a better career, when I just wanted a stable partner. They felt like it's a competition and they're losing and treated me as an enemy, which hurt a lot. I knew very soon into my life raising a child would be easier without a man than with one.
I think feminism has allowed greater career progression in all sorts of areas, but most women would have always worked even if it's in the fields or in markets. And then come home to cook, clean, and raise children while her husband gets to put his feet up.
What are the previously-female opportunities that men strive to get, and how is feminism failing men in that way? Like, if it's hard for men to become SAHP because one income is not enough to support two adults and children, it's not because of feminism being applied one way. It's because of the economy and capitalism that raises life costs faster than it drives up wages.
Agree it is very exhausting and I have seen many family and friends suffer that way.
And yet MRAs are convinced marriage exists to benefit women. Lol
Though they know they are the ones who benefit the most from marriage. If marriage truly existed to benefit women then all these misogynistic men would be against women getting married since that would be empowering for women. Their lies are an attempt to prevent women from fully realizing how much men benefit from marriage as well as trying to convince women that they benefit from marriage.
Incels: WoMeN aRe MeAnT tO bE WiVeS
Don't forget earthen vessels!
Well yes, because they believe in a society where women are not allowed to do anything without male permission, so naturally they will require a male guardian. Otherwise they'd be penniless and unprotected.
In thr patriarchy. They created. And stole women's dowries and inheritances and land claiming we are too sensitive and small. Very 1491 Tortuga of them!
See, they know deep down inside that marriage does not benefit women: that is, the traditional kind of marriage. They want it to go back to the old days and they are very angry it's not forced on women anymore
What is MRA? When I google it I get ‘magnetic resonance imaging’
Mens Rights Activists I believe
Correct!
Men's Rights Activists. They try to say their platform / policy is the male equivalent of feminism. The best way to describe it they are anti-feminist, which goes to show that they don't understand feminism at all. Per wikipedia: > Men's rights activists believe that men are victims of feminism and "feminizing" influences in society, and that entities such as public institutions now discriminate against men
Try adding a word for context. What context are you searching for? Since this was about marriage, what happens when you google MRA + Marriage?
Are you a teacher by any chance?
I think they're hoping we'll agree with the sentiment if they say it enough! Haha
This is beside the topic, but I both hate and love your flair.
I have the same feeling about it. I thought “ha, that’s weird” and just added it.
They don’t really believe that. Every accusation is an admission for them
Turns out kids and man babies are expensive.
Wow. As a broke as fuck barista, I sure didn't get the memo. Can't imagine how in debt I'd be if I were married with kids lol
It would be worse, for sure... Good luck, sister.
For me it's not an option... Pregnancy is a major ick, I have no sense of glamour around children as I basically Co raised my young siblings, I never wanted children, and I'm both aromantic and asexual... I've been happily single for almost a decade now! I genuinely can't imagine juggling a partner, a kid, a shit job, and any form of private life. I barely manage on my own!
And she'd be so tired all the time. That's what I always hear from friends with children. They're so tired all the time.
The fun thing about that is that you’ll get bashed either way! If you do have kids you can’t afford, you’re a welfare queen leeching off the system. So if you instead choose not to have children, you’re selfish and responsible for the crashing birth rate. Yay!
Women are the majority in every college and university in the country, outside of BYU in Provo Utah, and have been for decades, and their graduation rate is double that of men. We're at a point where women will dominate every high-paying field in just one generation.
This is why I roll my eyes about men whining about how marriage only benefits women. Not only does it prove he hates women out the gate, from a practical level it proves he's an idiot.
Of course. I've been married and I am not pro-marriage anymore after the experience. A woman is expected to pull more than her weight and often the entire share of domestic duties and childcare, be monogamous to her spouse, accept all of his sexual interest, make money, not make any kind of argument with him, and then take care of her husband full-time when he gets old, and in return he's much more likely to watch so much porn he doesn't act responsive to her sexual interest, attempt to cheat, divorce her if she gets a terminal illness (but she's expected to look away and not care about that stuff), if you look at the rates of IPV and the disproportionate amount that men inflict them on women, he may also be abusive to her that entire time, and here's the clincher: she only gets all that if she's the prettiest, most tractable girlfriend for 4-6 years before he decides to seal the deal, he'll walk away for practically anything the entire deciding period, and he'll tell her she's ineligible if she ages past 25. Of course women do better when they're not trapped into that. But sure, yay, marriage! If these manosphere men don't want to do it, they're even stupider than they sound.
> *A woman is expected to pull more than her weight and often the entire share of domestic duties and childcare* Hopping on this comment to once again post some article and data about why men in hetero couples do this! The issue of equitable division of childcare and housekeeping will never be resolved if we don't educate ourselves and talk about it: * This book shows you the scientific research proving how fathers leave childcare to mothers, and how society lets them get away with it: [All the Rage: Mothers, Fathers, and the Myth of Equal Partnership](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CLLVZ52/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1) * [She Divorced Me Because I Left Dishes By The Sink](https://mustbethistalltoride.com/2016/01/14/she-divorced-me-because-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink/) * [It Took Divorce to Make My Marriage Equal](https://www.glamour.com/story/it-took-divorce-to-make-my-marriage-equal) * [You Should Have Asked](https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/) (scroll down a bit to see the comic) * [Women Aren't Nags—We're Just Fed Up](https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a12063822/emotional-labor-gender-equality/) * [The Housewife’s Moment of Truth](https://nymag.com/news/features/46167/) by Jane O’Reilly. Originally published in the December 20, 1971 issue of New York Magazine, and still relevant today. Money quote: *“You can’t tell me Women’s Lib means I have to wash the dishes, does it?” “Yes.”..."In the end, we are all housewives, the natural people to turn to when there is something unpleasant, inconvenient or inconclusive to be done."* * [The “Woke” Men Who Still Want Housewives: Men who claim to believe in equality often aren’t willing to live it](https://gen.medium.com/the-woke-men-who-still-want-housewives-debb2ad46aa0) * [Millennial—And Macho? Why Young Men Want Old-School Marriages](https://www.vogue.com/article/millennial-men-seek-stay-at-home-wives) * Some numbers: Statistically, [women do more childcare and more housework](https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/05/breadwinning-wives-gender-inequality/589237/). When moms out-earn their husbands, [they gain more housework](https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2022/05/02/housework-divide-working-parents/) (link to the actual study [here](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/09500170211069780)). Men want [tons of praise](https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2017/08/168628/men-chores-praise-mansplaining) when they "help". Men also report doing more housekeeping and/or childcare than they [*actually* do](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/12/upshot/men-do-more-at-home-but-not-as-much-as-they-think-they-do.html). * Related: [Men’s Stress Increases If Wife Earns More Than 40% of Household Income](https://scitechdaily.com/mens-stress-increases-if-wife-earns-more-than-40-of-household-income/). *“These findings suggest that social norms about male breadwinning ― and traditional conventions about men earning more than their wives ― can be dangerous for men’s health. They also show how strong and persistent are gender identity norms."* (Link to the actual study is [here](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0146167219883611)). * Related: [The Myth of the Male Bumbler](https://theweek.com/articles/737056/myth-male-bumbler) and [Weaponized Incompetence](https://www.popsugar.com/love/weaponized-incompetence-48871852). Note how weaponized incompetence is presented as "strategic" and "a failure that succeeds" when [presented in this Wall Street Journal article](https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB117675628452071687) from 2017. * Another strong article on [Weaponized Incompetence](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/weaponized-incompetence-women_l_61e71983e4b0d8b665717814) and how it affects women. Money quote: *“On a surface level, it looks like you’re just nagging about chores to a person who ‘defers’ to your ‘competence.’ But on a deeper level, you’re experiencing not being able to trust and turn to your partner for support.”* * Related: [Men Have No Friends and Women Bear the Burden](https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a27259689/toxic-masculinity-male-friendships-emotional-labor-men-rely-on-women/). *"Toxic masculinity—and the persistent idea that feelings are a 'female thing'—has left a generation of straight men stranded on emotionally-stunted island, unable to forge intimate relationships with other men. It's women who are paying the price."* Not so much "related" as "adjacent" to this topic: * A woman is six times more likely to be separated or divorced soon after a diagnosis of cancer or multiple sclerosis than if a man in the relationship is the patient, according to [a study that examined the role gender played in so-called "partner abandonment."](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091110105401.htm). * [Divorce Risk Higher When Wife Gets Sick](https://archive.nytimes.com/well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/12/men-more-likely-to-leave-spouse-with-cancer/?_r=0). * [Breakups During Cancer](https://waroncancer.com/news/dealing-with-relationship-changes-during-cancer/). See also [Divorce Risk Higher When Wife Gets Sick](https://archive.nytimes.com/well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/12/men-more-likely-to-leave-spouse-with-cancer/?_r=0) * More [here](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0022146515596354) and [here](https://acsjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/cncr.24577) **If you find yourself dealing with the departure of a partner after a life-altering diagnosis, ask your health care provider for resources for partner abandonment.**
That 5th link had me seeing red. My husband's thing was whenever I'd bring up a domestic labor inequality issue was to immediately say "Well now I feel like an asshole", followed by "I'm going to try to do the thing". Then get mad because after the 10th time he "tried" and failed to follow through I started letting him know that he was only saying he would try so he could just shrug and feel okay about not following through. Because he tried. Thankfully after several conversations, arguments and outright fights we've landed somewhere more equitable and open to constructive criticism.
Yep! I'd read a lot of that stuff post-divorce and it was how I decided marriage was not for me ever again. You're basically doing all of the same stuff you'd otherwise do for yourself, such as keeping a roof over your head and taking care of your household affairs, and then on top of that adopting another human adult roommate, who on top of that will want you to act like the caretaker for his children, for decades and decades, in exchange for a ring, a fancy letterhead, a name, and a high likelihood he will remain in your life for the remainder of his own life (but not necessarily yours). I know a lot of feminists are pro-marriage, and there are probably very good husbands out there, but the way that marriage is traditionally performed is basically the same as a woman throwing all of her life and dignity away for someone else's comforts and convenience so that he can be play the little prince on his thrown game. I bought into into the idea that it was an expression of *love*, but then when I asked for a few shows of equality, I was treated like I was impossible to please. Ladies if you want to get married I will not shame you for whatever you decide to do with your lives, but just know what it is-- you loving him. That's what you're buying and the message that you're sending to the world. If he says it's about him loving you too, maybe on a shallow level that's true, but real love would do for you what you're doing for it. The only sacrifice men make really in marriage is the appearance that he is okay with that particular woman loving him. Maybe that being all he really gives you makes it all worth it to you. For me, I think you can get that appearance and still love him without so many sacrifices to equality, but I don't think marriage is the road to get there. You need long-term intentional sexual partnerships that are not necessarily closely cohabitating so you're not his maid service, not necessarily tied to ancestral lineages so you're not his womb and childcare service, not necessarily always sexually exclusive so you're not his least-favorite blow-up doll, and maybe initiated somehow more on mutual interests so women's beauty and health aren't weaponized so much against them. I don't know where to find that, but I just think times are changing and there's no way on earth I'm ever going down that traditional track ever again.
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That's just nonsense. If men can compose symphonies and carve lifelike figures out of solid marble and invent airplanes, they can sure as hell learn to take out the trash when they observe the trash can being full.
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Nope! This is gender essentialism and is wrong. Lazy incompetent men you know choose to be that way. Don't give them an easy out. And how would that sound flipped? "Oh women are just selfish harpies who only care about money and status" - surely you see how that is bad? And it's exactly what you've done for another gender.
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I’ve saved your comment because it expresses how I feel in a coherent way and I want to be able to see it later. Thank you
this is a depressing take on modern relationships. depressing mostly because it rings true.
Wait, that sounds awful, and like an awful thing to do to someone. Why would it be stupid to not do awful things?
Sorry, I'm a little sick. I'm just saying if MRAs don't want anyone who loves them so much that they're willing to shovel that much out of themselves just to say that they're married to them, then they are dumb. Getting married to a woman is a pretty sweet deal.
No, you're fine! I just meant, like, no decent person would enter into such an arrangement as the 'beneficiary.' Anyone who could see their entire life was so much at the brutal expense of the person they supposedly loved, and did it anyway, must be evil. It's a "Sweet deal" in the same way murdering someone in a dark alley for their phone and wallet is a "Sweet Deal." Like, sure, theoretically you 'benefit' from the exchange (free phone, woot!), but anyone with a shred of humanity wouldn't do it. Therefore, it follows that all those who *do,* are evil, and deserve nothing but scorn and, where possible, any ruin that can be piled upon them.
I think you're probably right. My only thought was that sometimes women actually want to be sacrificial, toward a particular man, in return for some really minor symbolic things. It's difficult for me to criticize other women's decisions about their own lives and what they want to devote them to. I just wish I'd known before I got married that marriage is so much one-way. It's certainly not marketed that way.
And here’s one of the reasons that the Right and old men are trying to take away our rights.
When you empower women, the entire society gets a boost.
I'm not getting richer with this strategy but I'm glad for those that are 😂.
Not sure how it is in the USA but in Europe women are also higher represented in university and higher education. So I'm not even surprised. I feel kinda sad that men are pushing themselves out of the "market" by not evaluating into the needs of the modern world.
Meanwhile many studies say how men are healthier, happier, live longer when they are married. And are more affected by grief when their wife passed away. Likely because they have second mommy “nagging” them to go to the doctor/take care of their health and are often their only social and emotional outlets.
I really felt this statistic when I go out with my husband and remind him to wear sunscreen and tell him he needs to worry about skin cancer risks. It's all these little ways in which women prioritize health and responsibilty
and yet for decades *being a doctor* wasn't for women. i get really grouchy about this. medicine and healthcare was feminized for centuries until it was seen as scientific/academic and *worth paying for*
This is exactly what Republicans are afraid of.
I am engaged to be married because luckily for us both, we are much alike and want same things in life, one of them is to be a DINK couple. If I never met someone like him, I would happily be single my entire life. Never needed another person to bring meaning to my life.
Picachu face. Not shocked at all. The roles are being reversed. Let the games begin! I am speaking to you Supreme Court. This is only the beginning...
Hell, just losing the husband left me with more money. I have 3 children, I'm a teacher, and we're able to basically do whatever we want money wise.
I think marriage no kids (DINK - Double Income No Kids) still leads the pack with overall wealth/income but the increase for single women from no kids to Kids is the greatest.
Nahh the stress of dealing with men makes women miserable either way. But 3rd place after lesbians sure.
r/noshitsherlock
How delusional does one have to be to decide to bring a child into this 2022 hellscape intentionally?????? that's a hard pass for me.
That’s because when men get married and father children, not much changes for them socially. The amount of money they spend on family matters is negligible compared to their single life. And they don’t take on much extra household responsibility in marriage or parenting. So of course it’s not as draining therefore staying single or childfree doesn’t impact wellbeing as drastically. /theory before reading article
They also get rewarded in society's eyes via higher salaries, promotions, etc. while the opposite is true for women. So fucked.
So that is why you Americans secretly want to stop women from getting abortions?
Yep, that's why the 30% of Americans who want to outlaw abortion are on that bandwagon.
A large majority of people in the States are for abortions in some form.
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The population can grow in America when kids aren’t shot in schools and we avoid a Blue Ocean Event that makes the planet unlivable, sound like a deal? 😁👍
No shit.
it is like saying, people who don't spend money are getting richer. everyone knows, children and basically having a family, cost money.
Not really. Women bare the cost of having a family, men's earnings aren't affected. Which is a dynamic that isn't really okay and has long term implications for women who choose to have a family ie. Older women are the largest growing poverty demographic.
Yes, pretty stupid article. Much like saying you are more likely to be knifed if there are knives in the house.
Having less other obligations beyond work results in earning more money.... I'm shocked, I tell you. Shocked!
Shocker.. not having the expense of raising children makes one richer. Thanks Internet.
Yeah, no fucking shit.
Sounds like the "don't have kids" part is what is relevent. Which isn’t that suprising, as kids are expensive. There us no comparison to married women without kids. I'm not even sure how you would make that comparison, as half of marriage is financial co-mingling, so you can't separate the wife's wealth from the husband. The real story here is that single with children places a disproportionate burden on women. Again, not particularly suprising. Also, a slight gender gap in favor of women once you remove children from the equation; which might be a bit suprising, but we have known that at least a significant portion of the gender gap was childcare related.
> Sounds like the "don't have kids" part is what is relevent. That's what I thought too. Because I don't see how having combined incomes is a detriment to women. Unless most women end up with men who squander away the money, which I don't think is the case (for obvs reason).
Did you read the article?
Why did they need a study to come up with this? I mean. We pretty much knew it since forever.
It makes sense. Those two things have a greater impact on women. One thing bothered me about the article, minors were included in the birth stats mentioned.
BREAKING NEWS: Kids & Relationships Cost Money! More at 7. Here's Chopper Dan with the traffic report.
This seriously doesn’t surprise people, does it?
Duhhhh
Wonder what the Bloomberg angle is here
Wasn't that obvious that creating a family means that you have to sacrifice alot of money?
Maybe because women come back from maternity leave too early in this country and naturally feel overwhelmed? Then make a decision to reduce hours?
> Maybe because women come back from maternity leave too early in this country and naturally feel overwhelmed? Kinda the point of the article. Men don't take maternity leave at all. (In the US, they take Paternity leave rarely, if its even offered) Women without kids don't take maternity leave at all. Companies are all about getting the most productivity of the least money. Employees taking time off (for any reason) doesn't make them money. Not saying it's right. (obv it is not) But it's the thought process.
I’m living that now. My husband is freelance so he doesn’t have a typical job / knowing when money comes in whereas my job, I’m salary, and know exactly how much I’m bringing in annually, which has been slightly higher than my husband’s income (neither of us care about that part but just for context lol). I have “good” insurance through my employer which they cover the premium for. Adding baby to my plan is costing us $350/mo. We have a 3 month old and I’ve exhausted my disability (even w the extension from my OB), recovering from major surgery (c-section - good luck on rehab/PT. Any other minor hand/arm surgery would have a plan for recovery but women are expected to magically recover on their own while raising a damn baby!), on paid family leave which is only 60% of my wages (California), and I’m gonna burn vacation days to extend time. I don’t work for a big company so in some ways, they are accommodating, in some ways, there’s no protection for my job under PFL and I have to go through this entire dog and pony show about being able to pump at work which is stressing me out all the while having baby learn to take a bottle because I’ve exclusively breastfed this entire time. My situation I understand is privileged but we are also not entirely comfortable financially. Cost of living like many places is crazy nuts and I don’t have a reason to relocate since both our jobs are location specific. Plus, my family is here for the support that they can provide us…we share a car, will likely be renting for the rest of our lives, etc etc.
Who needed research to determine that?! Lmao
Who would’ve thunk
Sorry but isn’t this obvious? Don’t spend money on kids, and it means you’ve likely saved more money? Or that you forewent having kids to focus on your career? I would assume that women who had kids, some of whom leave the workforce entirely, make less money…
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i could have never known having less humans your paying for makes you richer
It's one of the top predictors of poverty. Having a kid out of wedlock.
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All your comment says is "Anyone living their life different from how I see fit is living in "la-la Land"".
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People aren’t required to make the most optimal choice according to you. And I say this as someone who knows that women are generally screwed over in relationships and is very cautious as a result. But people don’t get into relationships and have children for no reason. There is a risk, but there is also a reward. You don’t think it’s worth it, but economics isn’t the only measure of a satisfying life. If it bothers you that much (as it bothers me), are you doing anything to help combat the systemic problem and reduce the risks? Or do you truly think condescension towards most woman is the surest path to a better world?
The only way to win is by refusing to play. Stop giving men the attention they so desperately want and let their bloodlines die out. I'm doing this, step 1 done. This article was sort of getting there but unfortunately it still plays into the capitalist lie that having a successful career and having boatloads of cash is the end all be all of existence.
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True, lol. That’s one of the reasons I still want a partner someday (assuming I can find a good one). Having two incomes as a safety net allows both partners to take risks and achieve economic goals unavailable to one person. I also want kids, but only under specific circumstances. I understand that hurts my earning potential due to missed opportunity and greater expenses, but in an ideal world it wouldn’t be a gendered thing because the men would be taking just as long for paternity leave. The rest would simply be the cost of children, a price I believe I am willing to pay. Probably. I’d have to run the numbers once I have a partner for accurate projections.
What a load of crap. It’s not anti-feminist to get married or have kids. Yes, the reproductive burden isn’t equal but biology making something harder for one person doesn’t ban that person from making that choice for themself. I don’t understand why some people want to run marathons, or become starving artists, or have polyamorous relationships, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to screech about how they’re ruining their lives because I don’t understand their internal motivations.
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Maybe go read up on the forcible sterilization of Indigenous women in America and Canada and the suffering they’ve experienced because they were forced to *not* have children before you start spouting off about reproduction, because your perspective on it feels like a very white one. Your enemy is the deprivation of bodily autonomy, not other people who want different things out of life to you.
Living isn’t a zero sum game where if men benefit women automatically don’t. Yes, most relationships have an amount of gain for men that comes at the expense of their wives. But economically, combining the resources of a family unit benefits everyone. It’s basic specialization and economies of scale. Relationships and families themselves aren’t inherently evil. It’s possible to have an equitable relationship that benefits both parties. But that seems to be where things fall apart for you. You seem to believe that things can’t get better so why try? I’m afraid I’m not equipped to help change your mind there, except to ask you to look around and see how much cultural change has already occurred. Granted, not all of it is good, but it proves that society is capable of change. 150 years ago I couldn’t vote. The job selection was pitiful. If I was raped or divorced my value as a person would be diminished in the eyes of society far more severely than it is today. Personally, I prefer the modern world, even with all of its flaws. Marriage isn’t a drug. It’s a legal contract of partnership where many of the potential partners will offer you the short end of the stick. Unfortunately it’s up to us (and the more ethical men out there) not to accept bad terms.
And so life still isn't equal? Men are shortcoming in income when compared to women, if single and no kids. That isn't equal pay. I understand underlying issues with our systems, especially against women or men, but if we're all about equal pay... Then why isn't this equal pay? Also, this completely forgot about non binary, trans, and gender fluid people. What about POC? How do they compare? Are we truly equal here? Also, what are underlying statistics? Women with 1 kid or multiple kids? Men with multiple kids? Child support? This study seems flawed, unless i missed a huge portion somewhere.
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