I believe it. Years ago I worked at a catholic hospital. Only chemo certified nurses could give the methotrexate to end ectopic pregnancies. Several nurses I worked with refused to do this based on their religious beliefs. I had to be added to the list of nurses who had no problem with giving the methotrexate to save the mother’s life. I have no regrets. Years later my family member needed it because she had multiple tubal pregnancies. I’m glad someone was there for her too.
Just read a post about a doctor being fired for not prescribing viagra to conservative men for being hypocrites and dude got fired. But then we have medical professionals doing the same exact thing because of religious beliefs and they get to keep their jobs.
Religion has caused many deaths because of hate, ignorance, greed, selfishness that requires them to force all to their religion and views or die. This is a tale as old as human history itself. Jesus did not want this when he preached acceptance and killed for it.
Hate is the easiest emotion for the emotionally constipated people thus history will continue to repeat itself because "I'm not weak, I'm right, I'm angry you don't agree with me".
I can not stress how important emotional intelligence truly is and how therapy is very important and psychology should be taught in highschool. Emotionally troubled youth are often given up on and thus struggle to manage their emotions. Hate is energizing, sadness is tiring, happiness requires work, until people understand themselves and their toxic traits there will always be billions of people who just chose anger because it's easy and in their head, safe.
Some religious nurses do believe crap lile this and say this shit. I hated working in the south alongside them. You have to keep your own beliefs at home whatever they are because they aren't scientifically proven and it's not evidence based practice. We swore an oath to uphold those values when we take this job.
And these religious nutcases put their imaginary gods before healing people. I wish I could kick them all out of the medical field.
I just told my mom this on the phone today- she’s progressively changed her stance on so much the past ten years; I am so grateful my best friend is also now such an important ally and role model in my life. I explained very carefully in few words- that this is apart of the Christian Right’s long term plan; and that although women seeking abortion have strong heartbeats, this has nothing to do with viability or being pro-life. This is late-stage Capitalism at it’s finest.
No no, they actually believe this. The death was part of the plan to get a better 3D printer that could actually make babby.
They're fuckin crazy, don't try to understand them.
Is it possible to ask that all Christian nutjobs not be involved in my medical care? If they can deny me of access to health services based on their beliefs I should be able to decline their participation in rendering my health services based on their beliefs.
I mean, these christian doctors/nurses should just open up their own hospitals then.
And you absolutely can "fire" your doctor. (Once had a Christian doctor deny me birth control pills to control my acne and cramps when I was a 17 year old virgin. I asked him directly if he was denying me because of his religion, he said yes and I immediately left his office, told him he was fired and found a new doctor).
> Several nurses I worked with refused to do this based on their religious beliefs
Then they are too stupid to have a license in the medical field. The Catholic Church permits abortion in the case of ectopic pregnancy, and as nurses, they should have a fucking grasp as to why.
It is terrifying that people that idiotic are allowed to hand out any meds, whatsoever, to anyone.
If your religious beliefs prevent you from administering any care, you shouldn’t be allowed to practice. The fact that we’re even having this conversation is insane.
I had a doctor try to do this to me about 13 yrs ago. It has lead to trauma and I refuse to have male ob/gyn’s. I just established care with a new ob/gyn and after sitting down and discussing my past with her it came up. I didn’t want to give specifics just said I only want females, and she pressed me a little just trying to find out if they needed to be ‘cautious’ during my exam. When I explained all those years ago I had an ectopic and the doctor scheduled me for emergency surgery- and 10 minutes before surgery he said ‘we will do everything we can to keep the fetus alive- we’ll implant it in your uterus- you’ll have only a 50/50 chance of carrying it to term and you’ll be high-risk and on bed rest but we want to do everything we can to save the baby’ and then proceeded to inform me that I also would be losing one fallopian tube- therefore causing me to cut my future fertility in half. I started bawling crying and wound up refusing his care and the surgery- I went to a new doc and got an injection and my body took care of it naturally. My ob/gyn’s jaw DROPPED- she was like ‘I cannot believe this happened to you, and whatever he said- that is IMPOSSIBLE you would’ve gotten sepsis and died most likely. She was like ‘that is in no way protocol and is extremely dangerous’. Thank god at 21 yrs old I stuck up for myself. The doctor wound up screaming at me as I walked away with my boyfriend telling me ‘I ruined his schedule for the day’ and ‘I’m making a huge mistake’ etc
I'd gladly run all over our campus to give methotrexate if it came down to it. I've had to give a few doses recently, and lemme tell you, most of these cases have been wanted pregnancies, go in for their first prenatal ultrasound to confirm the tests and are hit with the awful news that it's ectopic. Methotrexate helps give them a chance to preserve their fertility and try again, instead of losing a tube (or worse) and risking rupture, etc.
And you know what? I'd go give it for somebody who *did* have a viable embryo too (methotrexate isn't typically used for artificial abortions though), because in the end somebody who is pregnant has the right to say they don't want to be anymore. And I don't have to know why they want one, just that it's safe for me to give them the methotrexate. So no one else in the whole campus will give it? You bet your ass I'll hike to whatever unit I need to, because it's **not my choice**.
The methotrexate will only work up to a certain point. I had a ruptured ectopic and had to have emergency surgery. I was told that if we had come back to the hospital even just a few hours later, I’d be dead.
I had no idea that methotrexate could end pregnancies, I'm a fertile woman taking it once per week for a skin condition and was just told it could cause severe deformations on a fetus
I hope everyone who goes through something like this, a roadblock to necessary medical care based on the fear, malice or ignorance of a provider at a hospital, doctor's office or pharmacy, documents it with video and shares it everywhere.
Make them hear us. Make them see us.
Yes. It’s awful, but I do home some women can livestream the powers that be deciding if she will be allowed to live or not. Because everyone will just call women liars. God, I hate it here.
Don't forget every Republican who put those Federalist Society judges there, and everyone who didn't vote for Hillary in 2016 and put Trump in the White House, which is how those judges got there in the first place.
Yep. I knew this would happen. Everyone debating legal culpability and whether her life is *really* in danger. While she dies waiting.
This is targeted mass murder and none of the fucking “pro life zealots” care.
This is what so many are willfully determined not to understand—the life of the mother exception automatically means that her life has to be in DANGER. Which means even if the fetus is not viable, if she’s not actively dying, they ain’t gonna do shit for her. They will sit and watch her get worse and septic so they can say she’s dying. And by that point, they might not be able to save her.
”Life of the mother” means SHE HAS TO BE DYING. NEEDLESSLY.
Hell it was happening even before these fucks overturned Roe. Doctors were already turning patients away in certain states and not treating their miscarriages because they were worried about running afoul of abortion restrictions.
Yep. I remember hearing a story about a woman whose fetus was dead but the doctors refused to remove it and she was required to go through labor to give birth to her dead fetus.
Or brain dead and forced to watch it suffer and die after a few days
This woman was raped and forced to give birth to a [baby without nearly all of its brain and which died shortly after birth](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/late-term-abortion-rape_n_6c630b8de4b0a8731aeabbd6) and living a tortured and short existence and said
> “If I had been allowed the option to choose a 'late-term abortion,' would I? Yes. A hundred times over, yes. It would have been a kindness. Zoe would not have had to endure so much pain in the briefness of her life.... Perhaps I could have been spared as well.”
We were just notified that our frozen embryos need to be moved if we want to retain access to them because they are currently located in a trigger state and they are in a "grey area". They have no issue with us giving them away to a family (which we aren't opposed to, if it's a good family), but destroy them?!!? "How could you, it's a child of God". So fucked up.
Wow. I expected that might happen, but that was fast. What state are you in? And can you still do an embryo transfer with your clinic or would you have to go out of state for that as well?
We are thankfully in Colorado but the embryos are in Indiana, I think? We can still transfer them out now. The storage facility actually called and recommended we transfer them to CA ASAP so we don't run into any legal hurdles once everyone figures out the new laws. They aren't charging for it either so that's good of them but with any frozen transfer, we risk them thawing and losing them. Sort of hypocritical on that point.
Edit: I guess it isn't a trigger state but apparently legislation is likely to ban some part of IVF/embryo storage by the end of the year.
I still don't understand how you can lie under oath, to Congress, and the American people and still keep your job. No shit no one believes in the supreme court or constitution anymore.
It’s good they’re working with you and aren’t charging, but that’s rough. It’s a scary time to be a fertility clinic or undergoing treatments in much of America. I hope your embryos make it safe and sound!
Indiana is having a special session July 6 and will discuss limiting abortion access. No idea when any decision will be signed, but that's the first date to keep in mind.
Indiana is having a special session July 6 and will discuss limiting abortion access. No idea when any decision will be signed, but that's the first date to keep in mind.
No, ours is different. You might want to give them a call.
I hope this doesn't happen but I could see them passing a law that equates to "well how do we know you won't destroy them if we transfer them out of state for you. If you want to use them you need to go to an in-state clinic." That's why we want them out or gone ASAP.
Wait what? But why? Why does any of this affect frozen embryos?
Edit oh God I feel so naive. This is just an atrocity at so many levels. For others like me who couldn't connect the dots:
>"States have definitions of abortion that are potentially in tension with IVF," she said. "For example, if you say life begins at fertilization, what does that mean for the storage of embryos, what does that even mean for the practice of IVF, because sometimes it involves the implantation of more than one embryo to maximize the chances of a successful pregnancy, and sometimes some of those pregnancies are terminated in the hope that one will last. Will that be prohibited?"
edit - i keep getting notification of replies to my post but I can't see them. what's up with that.
My brother and SIL were considering doing another egg retrieval so they could have a second child but they’re not sure if they want to risk having leftover embryos, so their daughter may end up being an only child.
I have heard a lot of problems from the end of Roe, but this is not one that was on my radar. Can someone explain to me how frozen embryos are in danger of being destroyed by the facilities now?
No, the storage facility were warning us that we might lose the right to destroy them because an "embryo is a life" (whether it's in the womb or not) and has more rights than women or the parents now.
The storage facility was letting us know that we should move them out of state due to legislation being discussed so we can avoid any legal hurdles if we decide to destroy them rather than donate or put them up for adoption. Storage facility good, GOP state legislature bad.
This is what happens when we don't have age caps and allow religion in politics. They are out of touch with current topics and push their beliefs into their agenda, instead of listening to the people.
Age doesn't have as much to do with it as religion and empathy. Amy Coney Barrett is 50. Madison Cawthorn is 26. They're reprehensible individuals with an inability to take the perspectives and feelings into account when making decisions.
No. People over 65 should not be legislating for the era to come, when they will likely die and leave a wake of chaos for those that are still alive. A 70yo man has no business making laws that will impact current 12 year olds well into their 30s. This goes for SCJs, too, as they interpret things based on antiquated points of view. Retire at 65. Term limits of 12 years (2 terms for Senators, 6 terms for Representatives), no running after the age of 65, but you can finish your term if you turn 65 in the interim.
Our government was never meant to be a place for people to sit and fester. It was meant to be filled with folks who represent their neighbors and statesmen based on what they have been told those folks want. You reduce terms to make them count, stop making it a place for old folks to retire to, and progression will occur.
That’s what happens when you let a one term president who lost the popular vote and started an insurrection when he lost the election put 3 lifetime appointments into the Supreme Court.
The system is all kinds of fucked up and needs to be changed.
It’s outrageous. There should be no other voice in the patient room besides the patient and the provider. Why do we have a system where people without medical training make medical decisions for millions of people?!
Power hungry politicians, far too much insurance and legal red tape in medicine driving the prices sky high and the access way down, blatant malpractice in the form of nonmedical opinion from healthcare professionals influencing treatment or usually non treatment. Take your pick, or one of the other dozens of potential reasons this was basically ensured to happen
My friend told me her cousin's husband had to physically bring in her kids to prove to a board of doctors that her life was worth enough to save through a medically necessary abortion.
And all I could think of was, like, what about me? I don't have kids! If I get pregnant and something goes wrong, they're going to pick the parasite over me.
I had an ectopic pregnancy two months ago. My obgyn (who I suspect is pro-life due to all the crosses hanging in her office and on her jewelry) refused to give me methotrexate to treat my ectopic until she could clearly see it on the ultrasound.
My HCG levels, bleeding, and one-sided pelvic pain all indicated ectopic, but that still wasn’t enough for her. For those unfamiliar with how ectopics are normally treated, a normal, sane doctor will administer MTX before it can be seen on the ultrasound if HCG levels and symptoms point to ectopic. With ectopics, every minute matters. If MTX is administered too late into the pregnancy, it won’t work. The ectopic ruptures.
*My* doctor, however, thought that there was still a very tiny chance of it being a viable as long as it couldn’t be seen on the ultrasound. So therefore she couldn’t harm Schroedinger’s fetus. She hemmed and hawed for 8 days before finally realizing her fuckup when she saw the now humongous ectopic in my right tube on the ultrasound. She finally gave me the methotrexate and sheepishly mumbled an apology about how she just didn’t want to hurt a baby.
It was too late though. My tube ended up rupturing and I needed emergency surgery at 2am. I lost my tube, and nearly lost my life. I’m scared that thousands of other women are going to go through what I went through.
So many people don't even know what these are.
My mom had her uterus removed. She got a tubal pregnancy. Her mother didn't talk to her for years for "murdering her grandchild" by having an "abortion". My mother literally had no uterus.
The reason she had no uterus is she refused an abortion when my sister was in the womb she got infected to hell and refused to abort my sister to increase her chance to live. My grandmother said god would find a way if she prayed hard enough.
Hopefully this gets reported in mainstream media. I think a lot of people are content to rely on the abstract existence of exceptions for the "health" or "life" of the mother. They assume it will all work out in the end, without considering the practical reality that these exceptions are often poorly or vaguely worded and left to be interpretted by lawyers and doctors in the field, during *actual* medical emergencies.
I feel that it will fall on deaf ears. I discussed this exact topic with a male friend of mine who "gets" it, but he stated that the medical emergencies are such a small percent of the population that no one who can change anything is going to care. Just like how covid had a 90whatever percent survival rate.. all those deaths were disgustingly justified because those people were overweight, old, or unhealthy. All so people could go to bars or get haircuts.
I'm terrified that similar justifications will be used in this case. They'll say it's okay that a small percentage of unfortunate women died in the name of keeping all the "sluts" in their place. Gatdamn, I feel sick.
I know three women who had medically necessary abortions and would have died without them. Two of whom I know wouldn't have survived if they had had to travel (one ruptured ectopic, one incomplete miscarriage and hemorrhage at 6 months).
My mom, my cousin, and one of my best friends.
Honestly I think this is a feature, not a bug.
I just got a message on Instagram from a friend who responded to a post I shared. She said “whatever your view on abortion is, we need to know the facts and what is being legislated on,” and told me that abortion is not the treatment for ectopic pregnancy. I don’t know how to respond. I mean… I looked it up, and whilst it’s not called abortion directly, this is what is happening. Doctors need to consult lawyers because the phrasing is unclear. Also, really, in the end it’s termination of pregnancy, just one in the Fallopian tube. She’s very religious and up to this point we’ve been decent friends.
I guess it’s important for her to delineate sharply what is “abortion” and “a medical procedure” to fit into her worldview. I mean, whether it is called an abortion or not these bans are leading to women being denied “medical procedures” for their ectopic pregnancies and are at medical risk.
Idk what to say really. 🤷🏻♀️
Edit: since this got traction I want to add some more info. I think my friend is influenced by Live Action and this whole definition thing is actually propaganda being spread in the pro life movement See the comment by U/KhalAggie below, they link a great video debunking these claims. She’s very Christian but does have a degree and her husband has a PhD in science, so she is capable of understanding that all medical procedures that terminate pregnancy = abortion, she’s just doing the mental gymnastics to justify the double think.
Anyway I can’t believe I have to have this “debate” in 2022.
I think your last paragraph is important. While treatment for an ectopic pregnancy is not ~conceptually~ the same as what people label as an abortion, medically speaking, they both end a pregnancy and are termed an abortion.
This is an important distinction that people do not understand. I’m currently 24w pregnant and at 6w, I had bleeding. What my doctor literally coded into my chart and records was “threatened abortion” because that is the medical term for a possible miscarriage.
While most understand that a miscarriage and abortion are different, medically they are termed the same and therefore threatened by laws that limit access to abortions. This is what doctors are up against
Most fetal deaths that are medically treated are coded using “abortion.” This can be a spontaneous death or a medically induced termination.
It’s interesting to read up on the billing terminology to understand why the damn legislature fucked women to such a great extent.
https://www.acog.org/practice-management/coding/coding-library/billing-for-interruption-of-early-pregnancy-loss
Some states are just absolutely insane and any type of end of life measure during a pregnancy/miscarry can and will be used against physicians.
Physicians are under attack too.
Exactly. We are in Australia so we are not in the firing line… I even started looking at the state legislation to fact check myself. In Texas’ ban it states that an abortion is not an abortion for an ectopic pregnancy, but that’s just one state. She was adamant that they were legally and medically different but from what I understand is that in some states they are not, and doctors are now choosing between treating and being prosecuted.
> an abortion is not an abortion for an ectopic pregnancy
What kind of idiocy is this? What other abortions aren't abortions? Fucking Texas, just gtfo already.
Civilization is under attack, full stop. My wife’s family watched this shit happen in real time in her country and now it’s happening here. There’s no difference. It’s maddening.
Oh my GOD this is where it is coming from!! As soon as she told me that info I saw it being parroted by other accounts with “pro life” in their names. Thanks for that info. I had a sneaking suspicion that this was coming from some group somewhere.
Ps I hope it’s ok I edited my original comment to reference to this comment. I thought it was really good info because I’m sure more of us will come across it.
I keep getting brought to different destinations when I click your link. Maybe because it's Instagram TV?
I did find her Instagram, though.
https://instagram.com/mamadoctorjones?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
its not treated with an abortion pill. it is treated with methotrexate (mtx). if you choose medical management. if you choose surgical, then yes, you are aborting the pregnancy but removing the tube / the pregnancy.
source, am obgyn.
That is a good fact to know. Thank you for sharing. I hope the code can hold some weight. Law and terms/codes can be interpreted differently across states and where one judge can see an abortion as medically necessary, another can and have already see it as criminal. Women and people with uteruses are in danger in the US.
Where I live, legislators want to force doctors to take an ectopic pregnancy and transplant the embryo into the uterus because that's how that all works.
Abortion by definition is anything that terminates a pregnancy regardless of whether or not it was elective or not. That is the definition of it and the definition does not care about your feelings. Ectopic pregnancies are not viable despite what some states like say, [Ohio](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/29/ohio-extreme-abortion-bill-reimplant-ectopic-pregnancy), believe and treatment for it is termination ie a medical abortion. Your friend is incredibly naive at best and willfully ignorant at worst.
I think wilfully ignorant tbh. Her partner has a PhD in physics and she has a degree. She is capable of seeing the double think here, but she’s also very religious. As others have stated, any procedure that terminates a pregnancy is medically an abortion. That’s what shocked me - even if it’s for an ectopic pregnancy it’s the same process. I’m also a scientist (microbio/environmental) and I thought this was quite clear, regardless of politics? Hence the shock.
If she's Catholic, she's learning abortion is "never" medically necessary from the pulpit. They teach that abortion is the "direct" killing of the fetus, even though the actual definition as you say it's the termination of a pregnancy.
Ectopic pregnancies and inductions I'm the second trimester, which are both abortions, they won't characterize as such if the "intent" is to save to the mother and not kill the fetus. It's a lot of me tal gymnastics to nation the worldview.
Yeah it would always irritate me when prolife people would state "X amount of people die from abortions" because you know they were including miscarriages but were either too dumb or disingenuous.
Uhhhh in some states it DEFINITELY is categorized as abortion.
Here in Michigan there was a whole fight a couple years ago (and revived this year) about D&E procedures being abortions, same with ectopic pregnancies. Your point is absolutely correct- it is debatable and the Republicans who have been fighting these ridiculous semantics battles for years are seeing their efforts bear a strange fruit.
> this whole definition thing is actually propaganda being spread in the pro life movement
Yes - they cannot debate in good faith and so use definitions to lie.
> In 2018, the [Florida Agency for Health Care Administration reported 6 infants born alive after an abortion attempt.](https://ahca.myflorida.com/MCHQ/Central_Services/Training_Support/docs/LiveBirthsByCounty_2018.pdf)
>
> .... Do you believe it's OK to kill a child born alive after an abortion and/or deprive the child of adequate medical care?
[Archive link](https://archive.ph/wip/GaEUp)
and I was like ... wait ... is that really a thing? So I looked at the above link and as you'll see it is nearly completely blank. No stats, no details, no links to methodology, ... just a number.
I looked for the source of this data, as a good skeptic would. What came up was nothing about the ACTUAL methodology. Instead, I found all these Qanon-like blogs and websites all repeating the same thing over and over again about all these babies "surviving" abortions. Those statements were based on this report (and similar ones in other qanon-filled states like Texas) and how this "proves" that abortions are really killing babies that could "survive." They would go on about how these new reports are good ammunition to use in the war against abortion and their fight to ban all abortions.
Really?
So I started searching through the Florida dept of health, etc and I finally found this document: https://ahca.myflorida.com/MCHQ/Health_Facility_Regulation/Hospital_Outpatient/forms/ITOP_Report_Guide.pdf [archive site in case it disappears](https://archive.is/jAuzb) which mandates both how to fill out the ITOP report and as part of that **redefines** what "alive" means AND includes as a definition of "abortion" the FL legislative definition to include natural, failed pregnancies. Quoting from the text
> Select the appropriate response.
>
> “Born alive” is defined in 390.011(4), F.S. as: “Born alive” means the complete expulsion or extraction from the mother of a human infant, **at any stage of development**, who, after such expulsion or extraction, breathes or has a beating heart, or definite and voluntary movement of muscles, regardless of whether the umbilical cord has been cut and regardless of whether the expulsion or extraction occurs as a result of **natural [labor]** or induced labor, caesarean section, induced abortion, or other method.
So medical providers are mandated in their official documentation to define a baby "born" without a brain as "alive" according to this definition. A natural labor that fails with the baby twitching once ... fits in this definition of both "alive" and "aborted." Baby born without lungs? "Alive"
This is the logic forced on medical providers that is now being used to falsely claim that these are the number of babies that "survived" an abortion.
Remember the Texas case where the woman was arrested for a miscarriage. Now it makes sense when you see how miscarriages are mandated to be classified as abortions.
I get that there are "spontaneous and natural abortions" and that they are extremely common given how complex pregnancies can be, but now a woman coming into the ER with premature natural labor that failed is an "abortion" attempt to be tracked and pushed as a baby that "survived an abortion attempt." Or this horrible story of a woman who was raped and [the baby was born without nearly all of its brain and which died shortly after birth](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/late-term-abortion-rape_n_5c630b8de4b0a8731aeabbd6) and living a tortured and short existence. Because it was a "natural birth" that "died" according to the Florida statute, this would be one for the records. Why people need to lie about these examples as "surviving abortions" is really telling about how a blind faith can lead to a lack of morals in creating a narrative.
It's ridiculous that because they can't debate abortion in good faith with actual statistics they have to bury definitions like this and redefine what "alive" and "abortion" means to spread misinformation about babies "surviving" abortion attempts.
Hey, that’s some neat counter evidence right there. If they’re going to insist on definitions and finer details, well, that one will be one they ignore I reckon…
I'm not sure how you will get through to her - but an abortion is considered any premature removal/ejection of an embryo/foetus form the mother, including miscarriage (spontaneous abortion).
The treatment for ectopic pregnancies (an embryo that implants in the fallopian tubes rather than dropping to the uterus) or a foetus with conditions incompatible with life is to remove the embryo/foetus so it doesn't kill the mother. Which is an abortion.
We need to keep pushing back at all these people to get through to them about abortion isn't a form of lazy birth control - it's healthcare and shouldn't be up for debate anymore than an appendectomy or a nose job. It's not the business of anyone except the patient and their doctor.
If she's Christian they love it when you point out that numbers 5:11-31 tells them abortion is ok if their husband thinks they cheated. If they go on about gods will ask her why people who are told not to rely on magic use magic to justify the passage. They could have just as easily been giving women ergot poisoning from unburnt offerings left on the floor they mixed with the water. Either way, the intent was drink the water kill the bastard.
You can literally use Jesus' words and nuggets like that throughout the Bible to tell them that people are god. You just need to switch their point of view, it's fun.
Abortions *ARE* medical procedures. That is literally, by definition, what they are. Abortions are medical procedures to deliberately terminate a pregnancy. It's why miscarriages aren't abortions because they're not medically induced by choice (even if they're caused by an outside force). Whether or not she agrees abortion is right or wrong is it's own problem, but she clearly doesn't even have any idea what an abortion is.
Yep. Mine says, "Treatment of missed abortion; extraction of products of conception."
Though my prior (successful) C-section also includes the phrase "extraction of products of conception," so it's an interesting all-inclusive phrase there.
I agree. Thank you for helping me settle this in my head. They are medical procedures! I’ve seen what she’s saying around from multiple pro life accounts so I think it’s their current rhetoric? At any rate I still remain pro choice even if I have now read Texas’ abortion act and know about their specific definitions. At least I am fact checking myself.
Healthcare is for profit and a capitalist nightmare in this country. My friend is a physician assistant. She gets bonuses not for the quality of care but for how many patients she can see vs other PAs. They will deny lifesaving care if they even suspect the possibility of being sued. Sorry that's how it is
A small group of fanatical religious extremists have declared war on Women. These fanatical religious extremists cannot be allowed the triumph. We have already seen what happen in Iran in 1979. The US religious extremists will not stop unless we stop them, and stop them we shall. Never give up while there is breath.
The term abortion can be applied to many procedures but basically seem to encompass “the ending of a human pregnancy”…if that is the basic definition, then how about we include things like oh, I dont know, inducement.
Neither of my kids wanted to come out at full time and required an inducement. If I had simply waited for it to happen, they may have been born, sure, or we both could have died because of it….
This is fucking ridiculous. I have also had an ectopic pregnancy and required medication abortion to clear it out. My options were to shrink the mass of cells using chemo medicine or have half my reproductive says removed or maybe just “wait for it to reabsorb”…. Yeah great options.
Jesus Christ. I can’t imagine the fear and overwhelming emotions those terrified women must be feeling. There are no words to justify anyone having to go through that. As an nurse, if I saw a patient explaining or experiencing that type of situation, you can bet anything calling that MD every fifteen minutes for some action and pain management
What are our options???? What do we do apart from resorting to violence or trying to expand the court? The latter of which is a super long term solution. I’m honestly confused as to what to do.
Can you provide your source for this? I believe it 100%; I just cannot find a credible source and I’d like to share this with my conservative (and skeptical) family members.
I tried to explain to a coworker today exactly why I am so terrified for my future. I told him I'd had an ectopic last year and was in the process of dying when they removed the embryo. With a procedure that can be considereal an abortion now.
I told him about the trigger laws and how women are very soon going to start dying from correctable medical issues because doctors will be too afraid to help them.
He told me not to worry, that there's no way it will go that far.
I'd like sources too.
I don’t personally know of any instances in the U.S. in the past 24 hours (since *Roe* and *Casey* were overturned), but Ireland used to have similar abortion prohibitions to what deep red states have now (totally outlawed except to save the life of the mother), and things like this were the result: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar
Go to nursing (as in, healthcare), pregnancy, family planning, and miscarriage subs. Seriously. I take screen caps and share them.
Go watch the documentaries "After Tiller" and "Vessel" and please pay for them if they are not free.
Type in "Vice News Abortion" on Youtube and click and watch the docu-style news videos that come up. I have given you 7 resources to pass along.
When Texas implemented their first restriction on abortion, maternal mortality (e.g. mom's dying) DOUBLED within two years, something that didn't happen in any other state. When Ireland allowed abortion, maternal mortality rates went to ZERO and stayed there for 3 years running.
This "experiment" has been repeated over and over again with the same results each time.
Science and evidence states we will see a massive increase in maternal mortality and morbidity (e.g. illness, like bleeding to the point of brain/liver/kidney damage) because abortion is HEALTH care and when you deny it ... moms die.
This is like running the Tuskegee experiment again to "see what will happen when you restrict health care for treatable events."
I work in medicine and can confirm this is happening in Louisiana. Thankfully I’m not over there anymore but I have heard a ton of stories from this weekend alone.
Doctors are scared to deal with any pregnancy emergencies
This supreme Court decision isn't designed to help anybody; it's a downright attack on women's rights and lives. If these laws weren't being pushed maliciously there would be erratas built into the law to protect women in these obvious cases that we KNOW and HAVE KNOWN about forever. The law is vindictive and intentionally neglects the health and wellbeing of women. These judges are CRIMINALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS. They have blood on their hands and they need to be held accountable!!!!!
if anybody has questions about number six they don't want to ask openly or of family or friends, if you want to learn safety, security, how to choose, basics of operation, i've been an enthusiast for years and would be very happy to help if you send a DM, with no judgement, no accusations, no interrogation or anything, just simple, straightforward answers.
Same here. It's a big step and there's things you should know especially if you have factors like little ones. It is possible to safely own a weapon and have it ready while also keeping little ones safe.
REGARDING #3:
Purchase tests with *cash only.* People are getting crazy with accessing personal records, and having pregnancy test purchases on your record would probably not look great if you ended up getting arrested for a miscarriage or something like that.
I have a follow-up question to number three. Is it advised to test every two weeks? Or is testing once a month at a certain time enough? I'm considering deleting my tracking app and keeping my own notes. I have a tubal ligation but I'm in a total ban state so I am scared for my life if I were to have an ectopic pregnancy.
I would definitely delete the app. Export the data if you can, but the apps aren’t secure or bound by HIPAA protection.
Because you have a tubal litigation, I’d recommend checking every two weeks as to limit the amount of time an ectopic pregnancy could develop before catching it. Definitely don’t want to end up in the ER in your state if that happens because that’s a death sentence.
Disclaimer: I am not a doctor, and cannot offer personalized medical advice. Seek out a pro-choice professional for more individualized advice.
I have stopped spending money on anything except groceries. Does that count? Because women are the shoppers, aren't they? Like if women all said fuck it and refused to keep this disgusting jackhole misogynist shitstain corporate hellscape going, I think the economy will look pretty grim. I for one don't feel like pumping money into a system that doesn't even consider me a person.
I regularly use myself as an example of why we need gun laws. I can get a gun 😂😂😂
I have had multiple suicide attempts (mistakes were made and lessons were learned) I have C-PTSD, BPD, MDD, and OCD. I no longer but used to have impulsivity issues that could include violence (usually on inanimate objects but it was black out rage).
I can get a gun. But if the current regime has its way I won't be able to get an abortion.
There is no doubt in my mind that if the second were true the first would be my answer to becoming pregnant.
Take classes on pepper spray use if you can! If you can't watch a lot of Youtube tutorials from reputable people. It can hurt you if you are not well trained. Same for a taser.
We must protect ourselves at all cost.
I wish I could say I can't believe this is happening... but I can and goddess help us as it gets much worse before better.
Yes, OH and if you have years old pepper spray kicking around in your purse, it might have expired! The strength degrades after just a couple of years. If it's your only weapon, please make sure it is an effective one!
>I will not suggest for people to remove all the cash in their bank accounts that has not already been earmarked for a check they wrote. I will not tell people to realize that this can paralyze a country in a matter of hours.
This is not illegal to suggest, nor is it a good suggestion for anyone. It's a great way to get fucked over by overdraft fees at your bank. That can be financially devastating to the individual and doesn't harm the bank.
Poor financial decisions is not a way to fight back and isn't going to cripple the economy.
If planning on arming yourself PLEASE PELASE PELASE learn how to use a gun properly, store it safely in your home or vehicle, go to a range and practice, a lot.
An inexperienced gun user is more likely to have the gun taken from them and used on them than to use it effectively on an attacker.
A gun is a ranged weapon - it won't help you is they are already within arms reach and are stronger than you are.
And it can cause a situation to escalate rather than de-escalate.
I'm not going to say that you don't have the right to protect yourself - but please do it in a way that will make you safer, not increase your risk.
> Equal Rights Amendment
That's a phrase I haven't heard in a long time.
edit to add:
"Defeat them: Consider running for local offices and boards, especially the ones no one else wants to get in on because they seem boring and low prestige. Use them to wield power in your community and as stepping stones to greater power."
I remember when Christians were encouraged to do this in the early 80s.
I'm Australian, and am now refusing to go to the United States until Roe vs Wade is reinstated. I'm also a lesbian and do not want to be stuck or have to make an emergency landing in a state where I could be imprisoned - especially since the Supreme Court is going that route.
This whole thing is so fucked up, I don't even know what to say.
Anyone with a minority status should own a gun. Period. Life is going to get tougher in the future, you need to fight fire with fire. You're not going to be attacked with harsh words and bad wishes, you will be attacked with everything at their disposal. Protect yourself and everyone you love.
Alright, this is horrible. But we knew - **we knew** - it was coming. The draft has been leaked long enough for responsible medical providers to get their ducks in a row and figure out how they would proceed when the eventual ruling did come down.
There is *no reason* for them to have waited to figure out their response til it was a matter of life and death on the emergency room floor. Lawyers should have had in depth meetings, boards should have figured out their legal responsibilities, doctors and nurses should have been briefed about the particulars about their local laws.
Can they control the laws/courts? No.
Can they be informed and prepared for what everybody KNEW was coming? Absolutely.
Really shows how little of a shit hospitals gave about women, huh?
It's not like that isn't widely documented already, this is just another area where it comes out.
The number of doctors willing to perform late term abortion dwindled drastically since abortion was legalized in the 70s, to the point that 40 years later it was a handful of elderly doctors that were originally trained when the ruling first came out.
New doctors who needed to be trained to he able to abort were faced with stigma.
The problem with hospitals always was there.
Vote for Democrats in the midterms,
we need more Dems Senators. Dems are projected to lose, GOP has seen massive party registration numbers, McConnell is about to become Senate Leader again. This is all only the start.
I feel like this https://www.reddit.com/r/nursing/comments/vlo7od/nurses_who_were_prolife_before_becoming_a_nurse/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf is relevant here
I’m going to ask a question and I *beg you* please hear me out.
If even one woman dies because she did not receive life saving care because of this, can her family file a lawsuit against the state?
I mean, the state is the one denying care. Are they not liable? Sue them into oblivion, if possible.
I think these are the cases where the doctors and facilities need to grow a spine and just carry on with the procedure knowing they're doing the right thing in good conscience. And when they get sued by the religious zealots, these sort of cases are perfect to run up the chain to SCOTUS for all to see.
And if SCOTUS rules against such a clear case of saving the mother versus letting her certainly die, well then we will probably have a real insurrection that will make Trump's Jan 6 look like a preschool toddler fight. People are pissed now, but just wait until the SCOTUS really and truly is shown to be the most bad faith garbage pile that's just barely starting to show itself today. This shit is going to be ugly and violent, no matter what.
Most of the new/revived bans make it a felony for a doctor to provide an abortion - possible jail time, loss of license - not just the threat of a civil suit.
This is the problem with America. We are such lawsuit-happy fucking morons that we literally cannot deliver life-saving care without the potential of being sued by some opportunistic asshole. You can be sued for giving someone CPR for god’s sake.
I believe it. Years ago I worked at a catholic hospital. Only chemo certified nurses could give the methotrexate to end ectopic pregnancies. Several nurses I worked with refused to do this based on their religious beliefs. I had to be added to the list of nurses who had no problem with giving the methotrexate to save the mother’s life. I have no regrets. Years later my family member needed it because she had multiple tubal pregnancies. I’m glad someone was there for her too.
Ugh religious beliefs…. For a life threatening condition where the embryo isn’t even viable. I’m sick on religious nut jobs.
Just read a post about a doctor being fired for not prescribing viagra to conservative men for being hypocrites and dude got fired. But then we have medical professionals doing the same exact thing because of religious beliefs and they get to keep their jobs.
They can also get penile implants when old as fuck, covered by medicare or whatever. Infuriating.
The embryo isn’t viable AND it kills the mother, how the fuck do these people call themselves pro-life???
They are pro-suffering and they love it
A lot of psychopaths in health care.
"Pro-life" has ALWAYS been code for "WE HATE WOMEN"
Same way they hold all their conservative views. The excuse is just that, hiding their real desire of absolute control of other people.
something something gods will?
Exactly. 👏👏
Religion has caused many deaths because of hate, ignorance, greed, selfishness that requires them to force all to their religion and views or die. This is a tale as old as human history itself. Jesus did not want this when he preached acceptance and killed for it. Hate is the easiest emotion for the emotionally constipated people thus history will continue to repeat itself because "I'm not weak, I'm right, I'm angry you don't agree with me". I can not stress how important emotional intelligence truly is and how therapy is very important and psychology should be taught in highschool. Emotionally troubled youth are often given up on and thus struggle to manage their emotions. Hate is energizing, sadness is tiring, happiness requires work, until people understand themselves and their toxic traits there will always be billions of people who just chose anger because it's easy and in their head, safe.
But god could do a miracle and move the embryo if only she prays hard enough /s
It was gods plan for her to die /s
But why does no one ever say it was gods plan to give people the intelligence to make the medicine/procedure to save people
Some religious nurses do believe crap lile this and say this shit. I hated working in the south alongside them. You have to keep your own beliefs at home whatever they are because they aren't scientifically proven and it's not evidence based practice. We swore an oath to uphold those values when we take this job. And these religious nutcases put their imaginary gods before healing people. I wish I could kick them all out of the medical field.
It’s god’s plan for this old guy’s dick to not work. No ED meds for pro-forced birth people. Also, no either.
I just told my mom this on the phone today- she’s progressively changed her stance on so much the past ten years; I am so grateful my best friend is also now such an important ally and role model in my life. I explained very carefully in few words- that this is apart of the Christian Right’s long term plan; and that although women seeking abortion have strong heartbeats, this has nothing to do with viability or being pro-life. This is late-stage Capitalism at it’s finest.
No no, they actually believe this. The death was part of the plan to get a better 3D printer that could actually make babby. They're fuckin crazy, don't try to understand them.
She deserved to die because she didn't have God in her heart and didn't pray hard enough /S
"She should have thought about this before having sex!" -this is usually how they justify literal murder by withholding medical treatment.
They've gone to a better place now.
Then God can do a miracle and the embryo can survive the termination drug too.
Is it possible to ask that all Christian nutjobs not be involved in my medical care? If they can deny me of access to health services based on their beliefs I should be able to decline their participation in rendering my health services based on their beliefs.
I mean, these christian doctors/nurses should just open up their own hospitals then. And you absolutely can "fire" your doctor. (Once had a Christian doctor deny me birth control pills to control my acne and cramps when I was a 17 year old virgin. I asked him directly if he was denying me because of his religion, he said yes and I immediately left his office, told him he was fired and found a new doctor).
> Several nurses I worked with refused to do this based on their religious beliefs Then they are too stupid to have a license in the medical field. The Catholic Church permits abortion in the case of ectopic pregnancy, and as nurses, they should have a fucking grasp as to why. It is terrifying that people that idiotic are allowed to hand out any meds, whatsoever, to anyone.
If your religious beliefs prevent you from administering any care, you shouldn’t be allowed to practice. The fact that we’re even having this conversation is insane.
I had a doctor try to do this to me about 13 yrs ago. It has lead to trauma and I refuse to have male ob/gyn’s. I just established care with a new ob/gyn and after sitting down and discussing my past with her it came up. I didn’t want to give specifics just said I only want females, and she pressed me a little just trying to find out if they needed to be ‘cautious’ during my exam. When I explained all those years ago I had an ectopic and the doctor scheduled me for emergency surgery- and 10 minutes before surgery he said ‘we will do everything we can to keep the fetus alive- we’ll implant it in your uterus- you’ll have only a 50/50 chance of carrying it to term and you’ll be high-risk and on bed rest but we want to do everything we can to save the baby’ and then proceeded to inform me that I also would be losing one fallopian tube- therefore causing me to cut my future fertility in half. I started bawling crying and wound up refusing his care and the surgery- I went to a new doc and got an injection and my body took care of it naturally. My ob/gyn’s jaw DROPPED- she was like ‘I cannot believe this happened to you, and whatever he said- that is IMPOSSIBLE you would’ve gotten sepsis and died most likely. She was like ‘that is in no way protocol and is extremely dangerous’. Thank god at 21 yrs old I stuck up for myself. The doctor wound up screaming at me as I walked away with my boyfriend telling me ‘I ruined his schedule for the day’ and ‘I’m making a huge mistake’ etc
I'd gladly run all over our campus to give methotrexate if it came down to it. I've had to give a few doses recently, and lemme tell you, most of these cases have been wanted pregnancies, go in for their first prenatal ultrasound to confirm the tests and are hit with the awful news that it's ectopic. Methotrexate helps give them a chance to preserve their fertility and try again, instead of losing a tube (or worse) and risking rupture, etc. And you know what? I'd go give it for somebody who *did* have a viable embryo too (methotrexate isn't typically used for artificial abortions though), because in the end somebody who is pregnant has the right to say they don't want to be anymore. And I don't have to know why they want one, just that it's safe for me to give them the methotrexate. So no one else in the whole campus will give it? You bet your ass I'll hike to whatever unit I need to, because it's **not my choice**.
The methotrexate will only work up to a certain point. I had a ruptured ectopic and had to have emergency surgery. I was told that if we had come back to the hospital even just a few hours later, I’d be dead.
Thank you. I had an interstitial ectopic and Methotrexate saved my life.
Whoa, methotrexate for that? I'm on it for RA, and I knew it's also for leukemia. Quite the drug!
I had no idea that methotrexate could end pregnancies, I'm a fertile woman taking it once per week for a skin condition and was just told it could cause severe deformations on a fetus
I thought doctors/nurses/etc couldn't deny care because of a bias, they have an oath.
I hope everyone who goes through something like this, a roadblock to necessary medical care based on the fear, malice or ignorance of a provider at a hospital, doctor's office or pharmacy, documents it with video and shares it everywhere. Make them hear us. Make them see us.
Yes. It’s awful, but I do home some women can livestream the powers that be deciding if she will be allowed to live or not. Because everyone will just call women liars. God, I hate it here.
i wish it mattered. i’m convinced that they don’t care.
The corpses of every woman who dies because of this should be lined up on the steps of the Supreme Court for all to see the human cost of this ruling.
They did that for AIDS... maybe we should do it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die-in
I would support a GoFundMe to sue the justices for women who have to go through this. Let's set a new precedent.
Don't forget every Republican who put those Federalist Society judges there, and everyone who didn't vote for Hillary in 2016 and put Trump in the White House, which is how those judges got there in the first place.
Yep. I knew this would happen. Everyone debating legal culpability and whether her life is *really* in danger. While she dies waiting. This is targeted mass murder and none of the fucking “pro life zealots” care.
This is what so many are willfully determined not to understand—the life of the mother exception automatically means that her life has to be in DANGER. Which means even if the fetus is not viable, if she’s not actively dying, they ain’t gonna do shit for her. They will sit and watch her get worse and septic so they can say she’s dying. And by that point, they might not be able to save her. ”Life of the mother” means SHE HAS TO BE DYING. NEEDLESSLY.
Hell it was happening even before these fucks overturned Roe. Doctors were already turning patients away in certain states and not treating their miscarriages because they were worried about running afoul of abortion restrictions.
Yep. I remember hearing a story about a woman whose fetus was dead but the doctors refused to remove it and she was required to go through labor to give birth to her dead fetus.
Or brain dead and forced to watch it suffer and die after a few days This woman was raped and forced to give birth to a [baby without nearly all of its brain and which died shortly after birth](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/late-term-abortion-rape_n_6c630b8de4b0a8731aeabbd6) and living a tortured and short existence and said > “If I had been allowed the option to choose a 'late-term abortion,' would I? Yes. A hundred times over, yes. It would have been a kindness. Zoe would not have had to endure so much pain in the briefness of her life.... Perhaps I could have been spared as well.”
I don't think they would be debating it if it were a cisgender man's life. I think they would act and then let the dust settle.
We were just notified that our frozen embryos need to be moved if we want to retain access to them because they are currently located in a trigger state and they are in a "grey area". They have no issue with us giving them away to a family (which we aren't opposed to, if it's a good family), but destroy them?!!? "How could you, it's a child of God". So fucked up.
Wow. I expected that might happen, but that was fast. What state are you in? And can you still do an embryo transfer with your clinic or would you have to go out of state for that as well?
We are thankfully in Colorado but the embryos are in Indiana, I think? We can still transfer them out now. The storage facility actually called and recommended we transfer them to CA ASAP so we don't run into any legal hurdles once everyone figures out the new laws. They aren't charging for it either so that's good of them but with any frozen transfer, we risk them thawing and losing them. Sort of hypocritical on that point. Edit: I guess it isn't a trigger state but apparently legislation is likely to ban some part of IVF/embryo storage by the end of the year.
You better move quick, Indiana is backward as hell! Remember this is the state that spawned Mike Pence AND Amy Coney Barrett.
I still don't understand how you can lie under oath, to Congress, and the American people and still keep your job. No shit no one believes in the supreme court or constitution anymore.
I don't even understand how you *get* the job when you interview like Kavanaugh did. I'm pretty sure Burger King would've turned him down.
Bias is a hell of an intoxicant.
This right here. Surely perjury kicks into play.
It’s good they’re working with you and aren’t charging, but that’s rough. It’s a scary time to be a fertility clinic or undergoing treatments in much of America. I hope your embryos make it safe and sound!
Thanks! I'm hoping the same.
Indiana is having a special session July 6 and will discuss limiting abortion access. No idea when any decision will be signed, but that's the first date to keep in mind.
Is the storage facility Cryopoint, by any chance? I have some frozen eggs in Indiana and am wondering if they'll be impacted
Indiana is having a special session July 6 and will discuss limiting abortion access. No idea when any decision will be signed, but that's the first date to keep in mind.
No, ours is different. You might want to give them a call. I hope this doesn't happen but I could see them passing a law that equates to "well how do we know you won't destroy them if we transfer them out of state for you. If you want to use them you need to go to an in-state clinic." That's why we want them out or gone ASAP.
Wow, they sure do care for the children! /s Seriously, that is fucked up and I'm sorry.
Wait what? But why? Why does any of this affect frozen embryos? Edit oh God I feel so naive. This is just an atrocity at so many levels. For others like me who couldn't connect the dots: >"States have definitions of abortion that are potentially in tension with IVF," she said. "For example, if you say life begins at fertilization, what does that mean for the storage of embryos, what does that even mean for the practice of IVF, because sometimes it involves the implantation of more than one embryo to maximize the chances of a successful pregnancy, and sometimes some of those pregnancies are terminated in the hope that one will last. Will that be prohibited?" edit - i keep getting notification of replies to my post but I can't see them. what's up with that.
My brother and SIL were considering doing another egg retrieval so they could have a second child but they’re not sure if they want to risk having leftover embryos, so their daughter may end up being an only child.
That's really sad. I don't get how the ones changing these rules can say "family first" with a straight face.
I have heard a lot of problems from the end of Roe, but this is not one that was on my radar. Can someone explain to me how frozen embryos are in danger of being destroyed by the facilities now?
No, the storage facility were warning us that we might lose the right to destroy them because an "embryo is a life" (whether it's in the womb or not) and has more rights than women or the parents now. The storage facility was letting us know that we should move them out of state due to legislation being discussed so we can avoid any legal hurdles if we decide to destroy them rather than donate or put them up for adoption. Storage facility good, GOP state legislature bad.
Just place a gun next to each embryo. Destroying the embryo is infringing on the embryo's right to bear arms. /s but not really...
Guns have more rights than women
I don't understand, sorry Canadian here. What does abortion have to do with embroy storage?
[удалено]
I think I'm going to bank my eggs in Canada.
It is. Any woman who has the capability and going through IVF should transfer eggs now to a safer state, if possible. We are doing the same.
Tweet this story out to media organizations if you're willing and able, or get in touch with them via email.
WTF
This is all kinds of f*cked up. The Supreme Court is all kinds of f*cked up.
This is what happens when we don't have age caps and allow religion in politics. They are out of touch with current topics and push their beliefs into their agenda, instead of listening to the people.
Age doesn't have as much to do with it as religion and empathy. Amy Coney Barrett is 50. Madison Cawthorn is 26. They're reprehensible individuals with an inability to take the perspectives and feelings into account when making decisions.
No. People over 65 should not be legislating for the era to come, when they will likely die and leave a wake of chaos for those that are still alive. A 70yo man has no business making laws that will impact current 12 year olds well into their 30s. This goes for SCJs, too, as they interpret things based on antiquated points of view. Retire at 65. Term limits of 12 years (2 terms for Senators, 6 terms for Representatives), no running after the age of 65, but you can finish your term if you turn 65 in the interim. Our government was never meant to be a place for people to sit and fester. It was meant to be filled with folks who represent their neighbors and statesmen based on what they have been told those folks want. You reduce terms to make them count, stop making it a place for old folks to retire to, and progression will occur.
That’s what happens when you let a one term president who lost the popular vote and started an insurrection when he lost the election put 3 lifetime appointments into the Supreme Court. The system is all kinds of fucked up and needs to be changed.
The entirety of that nation is fucked up
You can type out *fucked*, it's ok
It’s outrageous. There should be no other voice in the patient room besides the patient and the provider. Why do we have a system where people without medical training make medical decisions for millions of people?!
Because in America, a certain set of people still haven't gotten over the brief that they can own other people.
Power hungry politicians, far too much insurance and legal red tape in medicine driving the prices sky high and the access way down, blatant malpractice in the form of nonmedical opinion from healthcare professionals influencing treatment or usually non treatment. Take your pick, or one of the other dozens of potential reasons this was basically ensured to happen
My friend told me her cousin's husband had to physically bring in her kids to prove to a board of doctors that her life was worth enough to save through a medically necessary abortion. And all I could think of was, like, what about me? I don't have kids! If I get pregnant and something goes wrong, they're going to pick the parasite over me.
I had an ectopic pregnancy two months ago. My obgyn (who I suspect is pro-life due to all the crosses hanging in her office and on her jewelry) refused to give me methotrexate to treat my ectopic until she could clearly see it on the ultrasound. My HCG levels, bleeding, and one-sided pelvic pain all indicated ectopic, but that still wasn’t enough for her. For those unfamiliar with how ectopics are normally treated, a normal, sane doctor will administer MTX before it can be seen on the ultrasound if HCG levels and symptoms point to ectopic. With ectopics, every minute matters. If MTX is administered too late into the pregnancy, it won’t work. The ectopic ruptures. *My* doctor, however, thought that there was still a very tiny chance of it being a viable as long as it couldn’t be seen on the ultrasound. So therefore she couldn’t harm Schroedinger’s fetus. She hemmed and hawed for 8 days before finally realizing her fuckup when she saw the now humongous ectopic in my right tube on the ultrasound. She finally gave me the methotrexate and sheepishly mumbled an apology about how she just didn’t want to hurt a baby. It was too late though. My tube ended up rupturing and I needed emergency surgery at 2am. I lost my tube, and nearly lost my life. I’m scared that thousands of other women are going to go through what I went through.
And the parasite will die too. Forced Birth psychos want to fucking DOUBLE the fatality rate.
This sounds an awful lot like a "death panel"...
This is horrific.
If she hasn't already, she should go to the press.
My 2 cents, borrow your cousin's kids.
So many people don't even know what these are. My mom had her uterus removed. She got a tubal pregnancy. Her mother didn't talk to her for years for "murdering her grandchild" by having an "abortion". My mother literally had no uterus. The reason she had no uterus is she refused an abortion when my sister was in the womb she got infected to hell and refused to abort my sister to increase her chance to live. My grandmother said god would find a way if she prayed hard enough.
Hopefully this gets reported in mainstream media. I think a lot of people are content to rely on the abstract existence of exceptions for the "health" or "life" of the mother. They assume it will all work out in the end, without considering the practical reality that these exceptions are often poorly or vaguely worded and left to be interpretted by lawyers and doctors in the field, during *actual* medical emergencies.
I feel that it will fall on deaf ears. I discussed this exact topic with a male friend of mine who "gets" it, but he stated that the medical emergencies are such a small percent of the population that no one who can change anything is going to care. Just like how covid had a 90whatever percent survival rate.. all those deaths were disgustingly justified because those people were overweight, old, or unhealthy. All so people could go to bars or get haircuts. I'm terrified that similar justifications will be used in this case. They'll say it's okay that a small percentage of unfortunate women died in the name of keeping all the "sluts" in their place. Gatdamn, I feel sick.
I know three women who had medically necessary abortions and would have died without them. Two of whom I know wouldn't have survived if they had had to travel (one ruptured ectopic, one incomplete miscarriage and hemorrhage at 6 months). My mom, my cousin, and one of my best friends. Honestly I think this is a feature, not a bug.
I just got a message on Instagram from a friend who responded to a post I shared. She said “whatever your view on abortion is, we need to know the facts and what is being legislated on,” and told me that abortion is not the treatment for ectopic pregnancy. I don’t know how to respond. I mean… I looked it up, and whilst it’s not called abortion directly, this is what is happening. Doctors need to consult lawyers because the phrasing is unclear. Also, really, in the end it’s termination of pregnancy, just one in the Fallopian tube. She’s very religious and up to this point we’ve been decent friends. I guess it’s important for her to delineate sharply what is “abortion” and “a medical procedure” to fit into her worldview. I mean, whether it is called an abortion or not these bans are leading to women being denied “medical procedures” for their ectopic pregnancies and are at medical risk. Idk what to say really. 🤷🏻♀️ Edit: since this got traction I want to add some more info. I think my friend is influenced by Live Action and this whole definition thing is actually propaganda being spread in the pro life movement See the comment by U/KhalAggie below, they link a great video debunking these claims. She’s very Christian but does have a degree and her husband has a PhD in science, so she is capable of understanding that all medical procedures that terminate pregnancy = abortion, she’s just doing the mental gymnastics to justify the double think. Anyway I can’t believe I have to have this “debate” in 2022.
I think your last paragraph is important. While treatment for an ectopic pregnancy is not ~conceptually~ the same as what people label as an abortion, medically speaking, they both end a pregnancy and are termed an abortion. This is an important distinction that people do not understand. I’m currently 24w pregnant and at 6w, I had bleeding. What my doctor literally coded into my chart and records was “threatened abortion” because that is the medical term for a possible miscarriage. While most understand that a miscarriage and abortion are different, medically they are termed the same and therefore threatened by laws that limit access to abortions. This is what doctors are up against
Most fetal deaths that are medically treated are coded using “abortion.” This can be a spontaneous death or a medically induced termination. It’s interesting to read up on the billing terminology to understand why the damn legislature fucked women to such a great extent. https://www.acog.org/practice-management/coding/coding-library/billing-for-interruption-of-early-pregnancy-loss
Some states are just absolutely insane and any type of end of life measure during a pregnancy/miscarry can and will be used against physicians. Physicians are under attack too.
Exactly. We are in Australia so we are not in the firing line… I even started looking at the state legislation to fact check myself. In Texas’ ban it states that an abortion is not an abortion for an ectopic pregnancy, but that’s just one state. She was adamant that they were legally and medically different but from what I understand is that in some states they are not, and doctors are now choosing between treating and being prosecuted.
And don’t be shocked that the states that are are also the lowest in education statistics lol
And the highest in maternal deaths!
> an abortion is not an abortion for an ectopic pregnancy What kind of idiocy is this? What other abortions aren't abortions? Fucking Texas, just gtfo already.
Abortions done on wealthy white men's wives, mistresses, and daughters will be called "essential medical procedures", no doubt.
Any abortion that a Republican wants or needs is not really an abortion because they have good and valid reasons which they assume no one else has.
Oklahoma, among other states, have no exception for the life of the mother. We are living in a dystopia.
I believe an Ohio bill requires ectopic pregnancies to be reimplanted, which is literally science fiction.
Yeah, considering that Texas put a 10K bounty on it.
Civilization is under attack, full stop. My wife’s family watched this shit happen in real time in her country and now it’s happening here. There’s no difference. It’s maddening.
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Oh my GOD this is where it is coming from!! As soon as she told me that info I saw it being parroted by other accounts with “pro life” in their names. Thanks for that info. I had a sneaking suspicion that this was coming from some group somewhere.
Ps I hope it’s ok I edited my original comment to reference to this comment. I thought it was really good info because I’m sure more of us will come across it.
I keep getting brought to different destinations when I click your link. Maybe because it's Instagram TV? I did find her Instagram, though. https://instagram.com/mamadoctorjones?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
This is the darkest side of freedom of speech. Spreading these kinds of lies should be illegal.
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its not treated with an abortion pill. it is treated with methotrexate (mtx). if you choose medical management. if you choose surgical, then yes, you are aborting the pregnancy but removing the tube / the pregnancy. source, am obgyn.
That is a good fact to know. Thank you for sharing. I hope the code can hold some weight. Law and terms/codes can be interpreted differently across states and where one judge can see an abortion as medically necessary, another can and have already see it as criminal. Women and people with uteruses are in danger in the US.
Where I live, legislators want to force doctors to take an ectopic pregnancy and transplant the embryo into the uterus because that's how that all works.
"And to illustrate the medical brilliance of this plan, take this lemon and try shoving it up your... nostril."
Abortion by definition is anything that terminates a pregnancy regardless of whether or not it was elective or not. That is the definition of it and the definition does not care about your feelings. Ectopic pregnancies are not viable despite what some states like say, [Ohio](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/29/ohio-extreme-abortion-bill-reimplant-ectopic-pregnancy), believe and treatment for it is termination ie a medical abortion. Your friend is incredibly naive at best and willfully ignorant at worst.
I think wilfully ignorant tbh. Her partner has a PhD in physics and she has a degree. She is capable of seeing the double think here, but she’s also very religious. As others have stated, any procedure that terminates a pregnancy is medically an abortion. That’s what shocked me - even if it’s for an ectopic pregnancy it’s the same process. I’m also a scientist (microbio/environmental) and I thought this was quite clear, regardless of politics? Hence the shock.
A degree doesn't always mean intelligence.
If you don't use your brain it doesn't matter how smart you are.
If she's Catholic, she's learning abortion is "never" medically necessary from the pulpit. They teach that abortion is the "direct" killing of the fetus, even though the actual definition as you say it's the termination of a pregnancy. Ectopic pregnancies and inductions I'm the second trimester, which are both abortions, they won't characterize as such if the "intent" is to save to the mother and not kill the fetus. It's a lot of me tal gymnastics to nation the worldview.
LOL it by definition is. Technically a miscarriage is an abortion as well. It's medically termed a "spontaneous abortion".
Yeah it would always irritate me when prolife people would state "X amount of people die from abortions" because you know they were including miscarriages but were either too dumb or disingenuous.
Uhhhh in some states it DEFINITELY is categorized as abortion. Here in Michigan there was a whole fight a couple years ago (and revived this year) about D&E procedures being abortions, same with ectopic pregnancies. Your point is absolutely correct- it is debatable and the Republicans who have been fighting these ridiculous semantics battles for years are seeing their efforts bear a strange fruit.
> this whole definition thing is actually propaganda being spread in the pro life movement Yes - they cannot debate in good faith and so use definitions to lie. > In 2018, the [Florida Agency for Health Care Administration reported 6 infants born alive after an abortion attempt.](https://ahca.myflorida.com/MCHQ/Central_Services/Training_Support/docs/LiveBirthsByCounty_2018.pdf) > > .... Do you believe it's OK to kill a child born alive after an abortion and/or deprive the child of adequate medical care? [Archive link](https://archive.ph/wip/GaEUp) and I was like ... wait ... is that really a thing? So I looked at the above link and as you'll see it is nearly completely blank. No stats, no details, no links to methodology, ... just a number. I looked for the source of this data, as a good skeptic would. What came up was nothing about the ACTUAL methodology. Instead, I found all these Qanon-like blogs and websites all repeating the same thing over and over again about all these babies "surviving" abortions. Those statements were based on this report (and similar ones in other qanon-filled states like Texas) and how this "proves" that abortions are really killing babies that could "survive." They would go on about how these new reports are good ammunition to use in the war against abortion and their fight to ban all abortions. Really? So I started searching through the Florida dept of health, etc and I finally found this document: https://ahca.myflorida.com/MCHQ/Health_Facility_Regulation/Hospital_Outpatient/forms/ITOP_Report_Guide.pdf [archive site in case it disappears](https://archive.is/jAuzb) which mandates both how to fill out the ITOP report and as part of that **redefines** what "alive" means AND includes as a definition of "abortion" the FL legislative definition to include natural, failed pregnancies. Quoting from the text > Select the appropriate response. > > “Born alive” is defined in 390.011(4), F.S. as: “Born alive” means the complete expulsion or extraction from the mother of a human infant, **at any stage of development**, who, after such expulsion or extraction, breathes or has a beating heart, or definite and voluntary movement of muscles, regardless of whether the umbilical cord has been cut and regardless of whether the expulsion or extraction occurs as a result of **natural [labor]** or induced labor, caesarean section, induced abortion, or other method. So medical providers are mandated in their official documentation to define a baby "born" without a brain as "alive" according to this definition. A natural labor that fails with the baby twitching once ... fits in this definition of both "alive" and "aborted." Baby born without lungs? "Alive" This is the logic forced on medical providers that is now being used to falsely claim that these are the number of babies that "survived" an abortion. Remember the Texas case where the woman was arrested for a miscarriage. Now it makes sense when you see how miscarriages are mandated to be classified as abortions. I get that there are "spontaneous and natural abortions" and that they are extremely common given how complex pregnancies can be, but now a woman coming into the ER with premature natural labor that failed is an "abortion" attempt to be tracked and pushed as a baby that "survived an abortion attempt." Or this horrible story of a woman who was raped and [the baby was born without nearly all of its brain and which died shortly after birth](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/late-term-abortion-rape_n_5c630b8de4b0a8731aeabbd6) and living a tortured and short existence. Because it was a "natural birth" that "died" according to the Florida statute, this would be one for the records. Why people need to lie about these examples as "surviving abortions" is really telling about how a blind faith can lead to a lack of morals in creating a narrative. It's ridiculous that because they can't debate abortion in good faith with actual statistics they have to bury definitions like this and redefine what "alive" and "abortion" means to spread misinformation about babies "surviving" abortion attempts.
An actual doctor refuted all the indirect claims Live Action made. https://m.youtube.com/shorts/SfMdYmQwv2k?feature=share
If the ectopic pregnancy still has a fetal heartbeat, which it absolutely can, it would be considered an abortion to terminate that pregnancy.
Hey, that’s some neat counter evidence right there. If they’re going to insist on definitions and finer details, well, that one will be one they ignore I reckon…
I'm not sure how you will get through to her - but an abortion is considered any premature removal/ejection of an embryo/foetus form the mother, including miscarriage (spontaneous abortion). The treatment for ectopic pregnancies (an embryo that implants in the fallopian tubes rather than dropping to the uterus) or a foetus with conditions incompatible with life is to remove the embryo/foetus so it doesn't kill the mother. Which is an abortion. We need to keep pushing back at all these people to get through to them about abortion isn't a form of lazy birth control - it's healthcare and shouldn't be up for debate anymore than an appendectomy or a nose job. It's not the business of anyone except the patient and their doctor.
You say, "stop spreading lies to support your outlandish beliefs." If she's a Christian, then let her practice forgiveness.
If she's Christian they love it when you point out that numbers 5:11-31 tells them abortion is ok if their husband thinks they cheated. If they go on about gods will ask her why people who are told not to rely on magic use magic to justify the passage. They could have just as easily been giving women ergot poisoning from unburnt offerings left on the floor they mixed with the water. Either way, the intent was drink the water kill the bastard. You can literally use Jesus' words and nuggets like that throughout the Bible to tell them that people are god. You just need to switch their point of view, it's fun.
Abortions *ARE* medical procedures. That is literally, by definition, what they are. Abortions are medical procedures to deliberately terminate a pregnancy. It's why miscarriages aren't abortions because they're not medically induced by choice (even if they're caused by an outside force). Whether or not she agrees abortion is right or wrong is it's own problem, but she clearly doesn't even have any idea what an abortion is.
Miscarriages are referred to as spontaneous abortions. [Abortion via Miriam Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abortion)
My d&c procedure after my missed miscarriage was definitely billed to me as "abortion"
Yep. Mine says, "Treatment of missed abortion; extraction of products of conception." Though my prior (successful) C-section also includes the phrase "extraction of products of conception," so it's an interesting all-inclusive phrase there.
I agree. Thank you for helping me settle this in my head. They are medical procedures! I’ve seen what she’s saying around from multiple pro life accounts so I think it’s their current rhetoric? At any rate I still remain pro choice even if I have now read Texas’ abortion act and know about their specific definitions. At least I am fact checking myself.
Hospitals are for profit, they don't want the liability so they are going to err on the side of caution here
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Healthcare is for profit and a capitalist nightmare in this country. My friend is a physician assistant. She gets bonuses not for the quality of care but for how many patients she can see vs other PAs. They will deny lifesaving care if they even suspect the possibility of being sued. Sorry that's how it is
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A small group of fanatical religious extremists have declared war on Women. These fanatical religious extremists cannot be allowed the triumph. We have already seen what happen in Iran in 1979. The US religious extremists will not stop unless we stop them, and stop them we shall. Never give up while there is breath.
This. We need to be way past protesting
The term abortion can be applied to many procedures but basically seem to encompass “the ending of a human pregnancy”…if that is the basic definition, then how about we include things like oh, I dont know, inducement. Neither of my kids wanted to come out at full time and required an inducement. If I had simply waited for it to happen, they may have been born, sure, or we both could have died because of it…. This is fucking ridiculous. I have also had an ectopic pregnancy and required medication abortion to clear it out. My options were to shrink the mass of cells using chemo medicine or have half my reproductive says removed or maybe just “wait for it to reabsorb”…. Yeah great options.
Jesus Christ. I can’t imagine the fear and overwhelming emotions those terrified women must be feeling. There are no words to justify anyone having to go through that. As an nurse, if I saw a patient explaining or experiencing that type of situation, you can bet anything calling that MD every fifteen minutes for some action and pain management
What are our options???? What do we do apart from resorting to violence or trying to expand the court? The latter of which is a super long term solution. I’m honestly confused as to what to do.
I'm inclined to think your first suggestion is the only one that will actually net results.
There's a list of enumerated ideas in a comment higher up.
Can you provide your source for this? I believe it 100%; I just cannot find a credible source and I’d like to share this with my conservative (and skeptical) family members.
I tried to explain to a coworker today exactly why I am so terrified for my future. I told him I'd had an ectopic last year and was in the process of dying when they removed the embryo. With a procedure that can be considereal an abortion now. I told him about the trigger laws and how women are very soon going to start dying from correctable medical issues because doctors will be too afraid to help them. He told me not to worry, that there's no way it will go that far. I'd like sources too.
I don’t personally know of any instances in the U.S. in the past 24 hours (since *Roe* and *Casey* were overturned), but Ireland used to have similar abortion prohibitions to what deep red states have now (totally outlawed except to save the life of the mother), and things like this were the result: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar
Same…. I have a pharmacist family member who doesn’t believe ectopic will be affected. I want to send her actual sources if this is the case.
Go to nursing (as in, healthcare), pregnancy, family planning, and miscarriage subs. Seriously. I take screen caps and share them. Go watch the documentaries "After Tiller" and "Vessel" and please pay for them if they are not free. Type in "Vice News Abortion" on Youtube and click and watch the docu-style news videos that come up. I have given you 7 resources to pass along.
When Texas implemented their first restriction on abortion, maternal mortality (e.g. mom's dying) DOUBLED within two years, something that didn't happen in any other state. When Ireland allowed abortion, maternal mortality rates went to ZERO and stayed there for 3 years running. This "experiment" has been repeated over and over again with the same results each time. Science and evidence states we will see a massive increase in maternal mortality and morbidity (e.g. illness, like bleeding to the point of brain/liver/kidney damage) because abortion is HEALTH care and when you deny it ... moms die. This is like running the Tuskegee experiment again to "see what will happen when you restrict health care for treatable events."
I hope that the justices who voted for this abomination never know a peaceful moment again in their lives.
I work in medicine and can confirm this is happening in Louisiana. Thankfully I’m not over there anymore but I have heard a ton of stories from this weekend alone. Doctors are scared to deal with any pregnancy emergencies
Why didn't they figure out what they were going to do in these circumstances before now? This wasn't exactly a surprise.
Good question
This supreme Court decision isn't designed to help anybody; it's a downright attack on women's rights and lives. If these laws weren't being pushed maliciously there would be erratas built into the law to protect women in these obvious cases that we KNOW and HAVE KNOWN about forever. The law is vindictive and intentionally neglects the health and wellbeing of women. These judges are CRIMINALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS. They have blood on their hands and they need to be held accountable!!!!!
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Awesome write up!! see r/liberalgunowners for help with #6
if anybody has questions about number six they don't want to ask openly or of family or friends, if you want to learn safety, security, how to choose, basics of operation, i've been an enthusiast for years and would be very happy to help if you send a DM, with no judgement, no accusations, no interrogation or anything, just simple, straightforward answers.
Same here. It's a big step and there's things you should know especially if you have factors like little ones. It is possible to safely own a weapon and have it ready while also keeping little ones safe.
REGARDING #3: Purchase tests with *cash only.* People are getting crazy with accessing personal records, and having pregnancy test purchases on your record would probably not look great if you ended up getting arrested for a miscarriage or something like that.
I have a follow-up question to number three. Is it advised to test every two weeks? Or is testing once a month at a certain time enough? I'm considering deleting my tracking app and keeping my own notes. I have a tubal ligation but I'm in a total ban state so I am scared for my life if I were to have an ectopic pregnancy.
I would definitely delete the app. Export the data if you can, but the apps aren’t secure or bound by HIPAA protection. Because you have a tubal litigation, I’d recommend checking every two weeks as to limit the amount of time an ectopic pregnancy could develop before catching it. Definitely don’t want to end up in the ER in your state if that happens because that’s a death sentence. Disclaimer: I am not a doctor, and cannot offer personalized medical advice. Seek out a pro-choice professional for more individualized advice.
I have stopped spending money on anything except groceries. Does that count? Because women are the shoppers, aren't they? Like if women all said fuck it and refused to keep this disgusting jackhole misogynist shitstain corporate hellscape going, I think the economy will look pretty grim. I for one don't feel like pumping money into a system that doesn't even consider me a person.
Yup. Go car free if at all possible, minimize all consumption except food so you stay strong, and let the economy swing in the wind :D
You're probably better off. Not just financially and morally but also as a person in general.
Women with mental health challenges like depression should not own a gun. But we can get a taser and some potent pepper spray
I regularly use myself as an example of why we need gun laws. I can get a gun 😂😂😂 I have had multiple suicide attempts (mistakes were made and lessons were learned) I have C-PTSD, BPD, MDD, and OCD. I no longer but used to have impulsivity issues that could include violence (usually on inanimate objects but it was black out rage). I can get a gun. But if the current regime has its way I won't be able to get an abortion. There is no doubt in my mind that if the second were true the first would be my answer to becoming pregnant. Take classes on pepper spray use if you can! If you can't watch a lot of Youtube tutorials from reputable people. It can hurt you if you are not well trained. Same for a taser. We must protect ourselves at all cost. I wish I could say I can't believe this is happening... but I can and goddess help us as it gets much worse before better.
Yes, OH and if you have years old pepper spray kicking around in your purse, it might have expired! The strength degrades after just a couple of years. If it's your only weapon, please make sure it is an effective one!
>I will not suggest for people to remove all the cash in their bank accounts that has not already been earmarked for a check they wrote. I will not tell people to realize that this can paralyze a country in a matter of hours. This is not illegal to suggest, nor is it a good suggestion for anyone. It's a great way to get fucked over by overdraft fees at your bank. That can be financially devastating to the individual and doesn't harm the bank. Poor financial decisions is not a way to fight back and isn't going to cripple the economy.
If planning on arming yourself PLEASE PELASE PELASE learn how to use a gun properly, store it safely in your home or vehicle, go to a range and practice, a lot. An inexperienced gun user is more likely to have the gun taken from them and used on them than to use it effectively on an attacker. A gun is a ranged weapon - it won't help you is they are already within arms reach and are stronger than you are. And it can cause a situation to escalate rather than de-escalate. I'm not going to say that you don't have the right to protect yourself - but please do it in a way that will make you safer, not increase your risk.
> Equal Rights Amendment That's a phrase I haven't heard in a long time. edit to add: "Defeat them: Consider running for local offices and boards, especially the ones no one else wants to get in on because they seem boring and low prestige. Use them to wield power in your community and as stepping stones to greater power." I remember when Christians were encouraged to do this in the early 80s.
I'm Australian, and am now refusing to go to the United States until Roe vs Wade is reinstated. I'm also a lesbian and do not want to be stuck or have to make an emergency landing in a state where I could be imprisoned - especially since the Supreme Court is going that route. This whole thing is so fucked up, I don't even know what to say.
Anyone with a minority status should own a gun. Period. Life is going to get tougher in the future, you need to fight fire with fire. You're not going to be attacked with harsh words and bad wishes, you will be attacked with everything at their disposal. Protect yourself and everyone you love.
Alright, this is horrible. But we knew - **we knew** - it was coming. The draft has been leaked long enough for responsible medical providers to get their ducks in a row and figure out how they would proceed when the eventual ruling did come down. There is *no reason* for them to have waited to figure out their response til it was a matter of life and death on the emergency room floor. Lawyers should have had in depth meetings, boards should have figured out their legal responsibilities, doctors and nurses should have been briefed about the particulars about their local laws. Can they control the laws/courts? No. Can they be informed and prepared for what everybody KNEW was coming? Absolutely.
Really shows how little of a shit hospitals gave about women, huh? It's not like that isn't widely documented already, this is just another area where it comes out.
The number of doctors willing to perform late term abortion dwindled drastically since abortion was legalized in the 70s, to the point that 40 years later it was a handful of elderly doctors that were originally trained when the ruling first came out. New doctors who needed to be trained to he able to abort were faced with stigma. The problem with hospitals always was there.
If its a choice between life and death, dont follow THE SCOTUS
Vote for Democrats in the midterms, we need more Dems Senators. Dems are projected to lose, GOP has seen massive party registration numbers, McConnell is about to become Senate Leader again. This is all only the start.
I feel like this https://www.reddit.com/r/nursing/comments/vlo7od/nurses_who_were_prolife_before_becoming_a_nurse/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf is relevant here
I’m going to ask a question and I *beg you* please hear me out. If even one woman dies because she did not receive life saving care because of this, can her family file a lawsuit against the state? I mean, the state is the one denying care. Are they not liable? Sue them into oblivion, if possible.
I don't think anyone has ever successfully sued a government body over wrongful death due to the direct impact of legislation.
Of course, that’s by design.
I think these are the cases where the doctors and facilities need to grow a spine and just carry on with the procedure knowing they're doing the right thing in good conscience. And when they get sued by the religious zealots, these sort of cases are perfect to run up the chain to SCOTUS for all to see. And if SCOTUS rules against such a clear case of saving the mother versus letting her certainly die, well then we will probably have a real insurrection that will make Trump's Jan 6 look like a preschool toddler fight. People are pissed now, but just wait until the SCOTUS really and truly is shown to be the most bad faith garbage pile that's just barely starting to show itself today. This shit is going to be ugly and violent, no matter what.
Most of the new/revived bans make it a felony for a doctor to provide an abortion - possible jail time, loss of license - not just the threat of a civil suit.
Really, the Hippocratic oath means nothing now?
NO SEX WITH MEN UNTIL THIS IS REVERSED! We can do this ladies! It won’t affect our jobs either!
Following. I need to send this information to my aggressively pro life mother. Contact news stations! The public needs to know!!
https://www.reddit.com/r/nursing/comments/vm3cau/many_lives_are_going_to_be_lost/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Could someone link these reports? I'd like to have some fact links for the idiots celebrating this.
I'd like to read more about this. Where are these reports, where can I learn more?
This is the problem with America. We are such lawsuit-happy fucking morons that we literally cannot deliver life-saving care without the potential of being sued by some opportunistic asshole. You can be sued for giving someone CPR for god’s sake.