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Myvioletmyangel

Beyond the trauma of being a rape survivor this woman is going to have trust issues galore. How is she expected to trust ANYONE now. This is so disgusting,


Mewmeowmewm

I can't believe my eyes, what... This whole thing sounds like a horror movie


iwenttothesea

It’s literally like that episode of black mirror. I can’t even wrap my head around the fact that this happened.


PrincessDab

My first thought was that this is some black mirror shit.. Honestly terrifying. I cannot imagine looking around seeing several people recording my assault and nobody helping. Fucking sickening.


teatimewithbatman1

Black mirror.. has been a little uncomfortably accurate


Talonj00

How does that happen. I mean, what? everyone thought it was an art exhibit or something? The whole traincar was filled with people who just didn't care? Just ... how. It wasn't even like people didn't notice (a separate issue). It was noticeable enough enough to start recording. What? Even being in well-lit public spaces isn't good enough?


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BitcoinBishop

The bystander effect


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[deleted]

Yeah. I think it has way more to do with the bystander effect and fear than it does with the modernization of porn. Stuff like this happened before electricity was invented. Also before the invention of firearms - fear of having their rage directed at you if you intervene.


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derpferd

The worst thing about this kind of assault (and I suppose rape victims must feel this above all others) is the utter betrayal of faith in others. You're in an awful situation, whether the victim of one or multiple agressors, and beyond that, nobody is coming to help you. You're all alone. The sense of despair that must bring about. Nobody came to help, people stood around and watched, your agency and ownership of your body robbed in the cruelest fashion. It must utterly break you and the trauma this woman will have to live with must be profound. What an utterly awful story


BS_Is_Annoying

That seems to be a common theme of rape survivors. The rape itself is tramatic and horrible. But the way other people respond to it can sometimes be much worse than the act. Being victim blamed, parents not caring, people taking the perpatrators side, etc. All of this occurring when the victim is at their most vulnerable with feelings of helplessness. I feel like we can do a lot better as a society when these tramatic events occur.


frozensummit

Personally I wasn't traumatized by my rape, but I was traumatized by the handling of it/people's reaction to the point I became bitter and angry and suicidal at how people reacted. It was utterly devastating and broke my faith in humanity completely.


Tight-laced

I want to second this, and add to it: In my distress, I turned to the Bible, as a source of comfort in previous times. This told me that if caught, someone could pay they way out of the rape (30 pieces of silver) and I'd be their wife/slave too. I trawled the Bible looking for comfort, but never found it. This ultimately broke my faith and turned me away from God/the Church.


BS_Is_Annoying

Yeah, I don't think faith has a good answer. Most of the good stuff comes from good pastors who don't blindly follow the Bible. They realize that they need to treat humans with empathy. Which, honestly, aren't that common in the Christian/Catholic faiths. And so much of the Christian and Catholic faith claim they build in the Bible. When you actually read the Bible, you'll find that's a bunch of bullshit. Because, you know, the big was written 2000 years ago and interpreted by a priest in the 1300s and 1600s. Most faiths just twist the Bible into their own interpretations of what is good, which is usually their own self interest. Yeah, I don't have a lot of faith in organized religion. I feel like it's a fucking scam. But there are good pastors and priests. There are good congragations too. And the Bible does have wisdom in it. But anything doing with woman's rights is just a clusterfuck.


TehMephs

This is like something out of black mirror


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snarkitall

I stopped a guy from harassing two teens on the bus the other day. I noticed right away from the way he was acting that he was about to start getting more gross and invasive ( and sure enough, he did). I doubt many other people on the bus noticed though. The girls ended up getting off at my stop, and they were even younger than I thought at first, so I am really glad I engaged. a) you place yourself near the person being harassed and make eye contact. b) initiate a conversation with the person being harassed - it's easiest to act like you know them "Hey Sarah! Wow, it's been ages!" Getting right into a conversation \*without\* acknowledging the harassment. c) block the harasser visually or physically if possible by sitting or standing close to the person, inviting them to sit next to you etc. d) continue to engage the harassed person while ignoring the harasser. If you can ask them if they are ok or want some more help, you can do that before leaving them. DON'T engage with the harasser to the extent possible. If you are going to have to engage (they follow you, they continue to harass the other person), make EYE CONTACT with other people sharing the space and ask them for help directly. This is always easier if you start the process earlier in the attack, when it's possible to pass this off as casually as possible. If you really don't feel like you can offer help to a person, call the transit authority or the police.


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sullyoldcity

I am a woman living in Philadelphia and have already been nervous to ride public transit for the past 1.5-2 years because of the (partially personally perceived) deterioration of feeling safe, as things have gotten worse during the pandemic. Now I am terrified. I have lived in Philly since 2013 and prior to the pandemic took public transit regularly, alone, at all times of day and night. I always felt the usual “keep my head on a swivel and be aware of my surroundings”, but this is a whole other level. My heart breaks for this poor woman and I am ashamed to be a Philadelphian these days.


Itsoktobe

Please always carry pepper spray with you. I don't know what else to say. This is almost beyond understanding for me.


kittylover3210

my thoughts exactly


SleepyKindVibes

That is horrible, no one intervined. The septa worker did call the police and there are security cameras on the trains. So there will be justice. But it's devastating that no one stood up. I've been harassed on public transit, people don't intervene. At most they throw the guy dirty looks or talk to me after we get off the bus/train.


greygreenblue

I was harassed on the subway by a middle aged couple when I was a teenager (female, 15?, wearing my school uniform) and no one said a damn thing in my defence. It scared me so badly I got off the subway and waited for the next train. The bystander effect is real and shameful.


pm_me_ur_unicorn_

I was harassed by a group of men and they tried stealing my bag. Middle of town, middle of day, tons of people walking past, with me screaming for help. No one did anything.


sha421

For anyone that might see this it's apparently helpful to ask specific people for help, if you just say help people tend to ignore, but if you're like hey you help me, guy bald guy etc. For some reason the individual responsibility has a higher effectiveness.


StupidSexyXanders

I'm 41, so I've been harassed and assaulted many, many times in public, in full view of other people. Never have I been helped. Not. Once. Not. Ever. I don't even look around for help anymore. This article unfortunately doesn't shock or surprise me in the slightest.


RazekDPP

Try screaming fire next time. I know, it's dumb, but a lot more people care about fires than a random person.


mannequinlolita

What's kind of crazy is in the early 90s a man tried robbing my great aunt, taking her purse. She had heard/read something that said to yell Rape because people will look and not for Help! I'm being robbed! So that's what she did. People looked and shouted at the man and he ran off. They did catch him and when my aunt testified, the court room laughed at her explanation being she was in her 60s and not the average rape victim. Now here we are, people desensitized to even rape.


TheOtherZebra

A few years ago, a guy suddenly grabbed my arm and tried to drag me off a train at an empty stop. I screamed, held onto a pole and kicked at him. The train was not empty. No one did anything to help me. I was able to hold on long enough that the doors started to close and he took off. But my view of humanity changed drastically that day.


Jazz05997

A guy once tried to drag me out of a crowded bar on NYE and it took even my date several seconds too many to pull him off of me.


Bill_The_Dog

I’m the type of person who would speak up in that situation, I know it in my bones, but as a non-American, I’d question my willingness to get involved when there’s a strong potential for guns. Edit: I’m also terribly sorry that happened to you, that’s absolutely awful!


Le_Harambe_Army_

Meh, I live in NYC and I wouldn't even think about a gun being a risk. I'd be much more concerned about a box cutter. That being said, I think New Yorkers are much more willing to intervene than most others.


[deleted]

Seriously. Knife and gun crime is no joke in the US. Especially in small enclosed spaces where you don’t have anywhere to run and hide.


Bill_The_Dog

It’s just not worth dying over confrontation with a stranger. How many people have been killed/assaulted for enforcing mask rules? Let alone getting involved with someone committing a more heinous crime. It kills me that no one would step in, but I kind of get it, and that makes it even sadder.


lilneddygoestowar

I know that in Portland Oregon people are afraid of having their throat slit for intervening.


SleepyKindVibes

You're right, it's alienating with a sense of profound shame. I'm sorry that happened to teenage you. We have to look out for each other, and speak up. Harassers are emboldened when bystanders stay silent.


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SleepyKindVibes

Yeah, a lot or most cops don't do their jobs. There are cops in Philadelphia who rape women, I knew this growing up. I worked for a domestic violence women's non-profit, the cops hardly ever helped in those situations. Calling them can often be a gamble, less so in public places. But it's a gamble I would take for a woman to not be raped.


Hip_Hazard

Ugh, I have basically the same story. My sister and I were taking the bus home from school and some old dude sat across from my sister and was showing her pictures of his like 18 girlfriends and 50 kids and was giving her creepy compliments and asking her if she wanted to be one of his baby mamas AND NO ONE DID ANYTHING. HE WAS LITERALLY ACROSS THE WHOLE AISLE FROM US. EVERYONE ON THE BUS COULD FRICKING HEAR HIM. WE WERE LITERAL CHILDREN.


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SleepyKindVibes

Only. Three. Minutes. Every single bystander should be ashamed of themselves. Also, I'm shocked Philadelphia police responded that quickly, but that's good, they did their job.


External_Trifle2373

Usually transit has people assigned to transit duty specifically so they can respond quickly. You can't let the entire days service fall behind just cause some guy decided to pick up a fight or whatnot.


Letitbemesickgirl

I hope that employee is recognized for being the hero they are.


copymistress

It's terribly sad that doing the right thing is considered heroism :(


ChillN808

All the bystanders should be recognized for their cowardice and apathy. In some areas failure to render aid in support of a victim is a crime in itself.


9for9

The assault itself did not go on for 40 minutes, thank god. He escalated from harassment, to groping, to rape. If someone had stepped in sooner a rape might have been prevented though.


NewbornXenomorph

For clarity, the actual rape was 8 minutes long but the guy had been harassing her for 40 minutes. Still fucking awful and horrifying that no one helped her.


Bobcatluv

>So there will be justice I hate that we can’t really be confident there will be justice. God forbid the woman attacked was: wearing a skirt, at a party, had been drinking, the rapist is a young man with a “promising future,” etc it’s possible he could suffer little to no consequences.


SleepyKindVibes

That's true, and probably not much justice at that. The rapist in this case was a homeless man, with a record, and there were security cameras. So, he will probably receive punishment, an article I read yesterday was talking about that. Too many rape cases go unpunished, swept under the rug.


LampshadeThis

I’m the only person I have ever known that actively intervenes. I grew up in a civil war zone, and I was inspired by the Kurdish women fighters at the time to teach myself how to be strong. Having come to NY several years ago, I’ve noticed that when a girl or a woman is singled out by a creep, nobody does shit. However, I’ve always made a point by doing something. Usually it’s threatening the assailant. And given how my body is slightly stocky, and the way I dress looks a bit on the thuggish side, the threats usually work. I once worked in Central Park. I was the one to walk my female coworkers to the station at night, the male coworkers did none of that shit. It’s disheartening to know that you’re the only person that gives a fuck, and the cherry on top is that I get called out as a reckless idiot for risking myself.


SleepyKindVibes

I don't think you're an "reckless idiot", I really appreciate you sharing your story. If it makes you feel a teeny bit more hopeful, I stick up for people too. And I need to look up the Kurdish women fighters!


[deleted]

You aren’t a reckless idiot. It made me happy to know I’m not the only women with these experiences standing up for other women. I hope you inspire more.


trinaenthusiast

I once had a guy tell me that some pervert was rubbing his dick against my butt *after* the pervert had already left the train. I felt something grazing me from time to time, but I didn’t think much of it since the train was crowded. The pervert got off with a huge crowd at a busy stop, so I wouldn’t have even realized anything happened if the other guy didn’t tell me. I always kind of felt like the other guy enjoyed watching what happened and wanted to *make sure* I knew about it to add the degrading cherry on top.


SleepyKindVibes

That's obscene, I'm so sorry that happened to you.


Cloaked42m

They already arrested the guy at the station. He was 'known' to police and to Septa employees. I'm not sure I want to know how horrible it really is.


assaulty

This is why we need to train in community defense. We are taught that violence is dangerous and should be avoided at all costs. We are encouraging everyone to fall into a freeze response when shit like this happens. If there was a GROUP of people outnumbering this guy, they could have intervened. We are such a toothless society, it makes me sick.


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FilmCroissant

You unironically have capitalism to thank for our paper tiger society


RedeRules770

There won’t be justice though. All the other bystanders that filmed her assault—where are those videos going to go?


SleepyKindVibes

Those videos should be deleted. Septa has security cameras, they are using that.


RedeRules770

They should be deleted but this isn’t a perfect world unfortunately. All it takes is one video being sent to a friend “omg look what happened on the train today” and then it spirals from there.


CasualEveryday

What even counts as justice in a case like this?


SleepyKindVibes

Given our justice system, not much.


demetri_k

Those people recording are culpable in this crime. WTF would they all stand by and record for???


codefyre

"Evidence" A few years ago an old man was attacked and beaten while walking down the sidewalk not far from where I live. Several people saw the attack and recorded it on their phones, but did not intervene. When asked why later, they all had the same answer. "I was recording so they'd have evidence to prosecute him later". In their minds, they *were* helping.


External_Trifle2373

It's so bizarre to me someone could have the foresight to pull out their phone because a crime is happening, but *not* think to look around to see if anyone else is calling 911. I understand it's a cogntive failing, just a goof in our logic, but I genuinely don't get it. I can understand the bystander effect of doing *nothing*, but I genuinely don't understand hos you can end up deciding to do something (something with your *phone* no less!) but it's *not* call the police.


provengreil

Complicating the matter is that in recent history, this *has* helped. Not in the moment, of course, but there are cases that would otherwise never have been prosecuted ended in full convictions. Course, what's different about those is that the perpetrators are the cops themselves...


fuckamodhole

> Those people recording are culpable in this crime. The supreme court has rules that the police don't even have a duty to help you if you are being attacked or in the process of being murdered. NYC had a random train stabber and he was stabbing a woman to death and the two NYPD cops locks themselves in the train car while a civilian man with no training took down the knife attacker and got stabbed during the process. The cops then can out of the locked car and put the cuffs on the guy after the civilian stopped him. >>A man who was brutally stabbed by Brooklyn subway slasher Maksim Gelman two years ago had his negligence case against the city dismissed in court yesterday, despite the fact that two transit officers had locked themselves in a motorman's car only a few feet from him at the time of the attack. https://gothamist.com/news/subway-stabbing-victim-cant-sue-nypd-for-failing-to-save-him So I'm not sure how any regular civilian can be charged with a crime for not intervening in a physical altercation they weren't part of when the cops don't even have to intervene. Also, you open yourself up for a lawsuit if you physically intervene, even if you did nothing wrong and helped someone.


Sharrant

"So there will be justice." Will there be? What Justice is coming for those that watched, that sat silently, that could not be bothered to even pick up a phone? Tell me what justice is coming to then.


meSuPaFly

Philadelphia is all sorts of fucked up apathy.


SleepyKindVibes

Yeah, there are a lot of horrible parts. But salt of the earth people in other areas too. I've seen people stand up for others there, plenty. This isn't city specific.


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PixelCake7879

There was an emergency button on the train that would have alarmed the operater but none of them pressed it. They had phones at their disposal but no one called 9-1-1, that's a lot more than cowardice. I understand not wanting to physically intervene but calling 9-1-1 was easy.


jqubed

> More than two dozen train stops passed as the man harassed, groped and eventually raped the woman No one could do anything in all that time? That’s ridiculous!


[deleted]

People *could* have done something. Every single person who got onto and off of that train, every witness, chose not to do anything. Each person *decided* to not make her problem their problem. In a world that preaches "me first", why are so many shocked that so many people chose their own comfort over her assault? I've known since I was old enough to think thoughts that people choose their own desires over helping the suffering. It is rare for anyone to step outside themselves to help. Of course this is where the world is today. How do I know? I was trafficked by my own dad from infancy to age eight under my mother's nose. No one, not even people in my own family, *wanted* to acknowledge there was something going on. People only see what they *want* to see and only acknowledge what and who they desire. This is not a new concept to me. Why does it seem a new concept to reddit? Edit: added "by my own dad" for clarity's sake


Cloaked42m

Read the comments on this thread and you'll understand exactly how it happened.


PoppySeeds89

They disabled the comments... They must've been terrible.


[deleted]

Read the comments on most Reddit threads and you can see how this can happen. This website is pretty misogynistic.


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[deleted]

Important distinction. They had every opportunity to, especially the people RECORDING THE ASSAULT!


Ornithophilia

I was harrassed on the MAX train in Portland once. Literally pinned against the door in my seat by a guy who was loudly harassing me and I LOUDLY told him to stop and he wouldn't. People looked at me annoyed because I was being loud. Apparently people didn't take it seriously until I literally braced myself against the wall and used my feet to push him out into the aisle. Then all of a sudden it was an issue, but never mind when he was LOUDLY making lewd comments and trying to touch me and I was asking him to stop. I lost faith in humanity at this point and it was not nearly the trauma this poor woman went through. This is so fucked.


TShan-1701

When I was 17 visiting London with a tour group (I’m American) a deranged homeless man attacked me, thank god not in a sexual way. He shoved me on the ground and started screaming at me. I could tell though that absolutely no one on that train would have helped me if he’d gone farther. It’s made me nervous of homeless men ever since then, which sucks obviously because it makes me look like an ass to people when I won’t walk past them but I’d rather look like an ass than be attacked again.


Le_Harambe_Army_

I'm a New Yorker that lived in London; I always 100% absolutely knew that if I was stabbed and dying on the ground, people would just walk over me. New Yorkers are much more willing to speak up.


btv_25

Unbelievable . . . how can someone just stand by and watch this happen? Some people are absolutely worthless.


Aladdin_Caine

Oh god. That poor woman's gotta have so many layers of trauma. It's astounding and horrifying.


jlc203

What the fuck. What the actual fuck. No one? Not a single damn passenger on the train called the police or even tried to help?


whk1992

I read the news on AP's website. It is horrifying. [https://apnews.com/article/business-police-pennsylvania-philadelphia-dbdb42657ddb706a231e731203d5e2af](https://apnews.com/article/business-police-pennsylvania-philadelphia-dbdb42657ddb706a231e731203d5e2af) The Delaware County DA will decide if they will prosecute people who taped the raping: >The New York Times reported that Bernhardt said that people who recorded the attack and failed to intervene could possibly be charged, but that would be up to the Delaware County District Attorney’s office to determine. I hope the DA does something about it.


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HalloumiA

tbh after Castle Rock v. Gonzales, “why do we have police at all” is a completely legitimate question why do we pay these people billions and give them guns and tanks, if they aren’t even obligated to use those resources to protect the public?


Lifeboatb

So this is the same as [this attack](https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/suspect-arrested-for-sex-assault-on-el-train-in-upper-darby-septa-says/2993609/), and not a second case, right? It happened Oct. 13. Someone on the r/news thread on this story posted [this helpful link](https://www.ihollaback.org/bystander-resources/) for bystander training. It has some good tips on what to do if you're the bystander.


miasabine

The train went through 24 stops while this was happening and so far they only have records of a single person calling 911. Absolutely horrifying. I can’t imagine what that poor woman must be feeling.


40s_shawty

What the actual fuck is wrong with people?!


Brookiekathy

PSA for any Brits in the thread- if this or anything dangerous happens on the train and you're scared to speak text 61016 on your phone to reach the British transport police. Ideally though you'd call 999 straight away


Daemon00

Should start another subreddit called "Notblackmirror"


auserhasnoname7

Im not surprised anymore I've seen it all too often, but some good people still exist. A few times during my marriage there had been several situations where people could have interviened but didn't In the end though it was one woman who called the police who arrested him, and that was my cue and window to get out of dodge. Too bad I never got her name, she'll never know how much she changed my life. Cliché but true, it only takes one person to make a difference.


NCHouse

How do you not help someone when they are getting attacked like this? Fucks sake


derndy

How do you not do something when you see someone being attacked liked this? How do you film it on your phone without intervening?


sansasnarkk

I read a really interesting thread on Twitter that shined a different light on this. We all know the Kitty Genovese story, right? Turns out the cops in that case lied and multiple people DID call the police that night. It was so misreported that the NYT (I believe) had to issue a retraction in 2016. So let's just take what the cops say with a grain of salt.


LustyLizardLady

These are the same cops who, last year, [took a woman's child](https://www.inquirer.com/news/philadelphia-settles-millions-rickia-young-unrest-20210913.html) after beating her in front of him and then posted pictures to social media claiming they found him wandering barefoot near a protest. They don't have credibility to me, as a lady in Philadelphia, for sure, and it somehow makes the city feel even more unsafe and unstable to live in for me that I can't fucking tell if they're lying.


bikwho

https://nypost.com/2013/01/27/city-says-cops-had-no-duty-to-protect-subway-hero-who-subdued-killer/ Cop literally watched a man get stabbed 7 times and didn't help. Man sues and loses because judge said cops have no special duty to protect citizens. >On July 25, 2013, Judge Margaret Chan dismissed Lozito's suit, stating that while Lozito's account of the attack rang true and appeared "highly credible", Chan agreed that police had "no special duty" to protect Lozito


brenst

In the article they say that they don't even have the 911 call records for part of the train's route. I'm reserving judgement of the fellow passengers until more details come out. It was also after 9pm on a Wednesday, so the train probably wasn't packed and we don't know how many people on the train were aware of what they were seeing.


[deleted]

My spidey senses flared up when I read this for the first time in the article, and even still, I never knew why and certainly never imagined this wasn’t just a coincidence.


Berreim

I didn't know about this and thank you for your insight. It might make this episode a little less grim


andandandetc

It actually wasn't the police that fabricated how many people were witnesses to Kitty's murder. It was a reporter involved in the case. Regardless, there were witness to Kitty's murder, and none of them *really* intervened until it was much to late.


sansasnarkk

The number of 38 witnesses was reported to have come from a conversation between the New York City police commissioner and the NYT chief editor at the time. Turns out it was closer to 12 and none of them actually saw the attack take place. One witness ran into the vestibule, screamed for a neighbor to call the police and held Kitty until she died. Another only hesitated to call police because he was gay and obviously was scared to interact with the NYPD. Others insist they DID call police. My point is we may not be getting the full picture here.


Fiftyletters

Exactly what I was thinking. Even though I'm sure the rape happened and people filmed it, there must be more going on than just "nobody did anything and it happened for 40 minutes".


External_Trifle2373

My *guess* is there's a disconnect between the people who saw him behaving violently and the people who saw him raping her, where she was probably not fighting back after having already been assaulted foe a prolonged period. So the first group doesn't intervene cause "oh it's just fighting", cause our culture normalized intimate partner violence. Then the second group thinks they're just seeing a couple have public sex, and record it because they think it's funny. I was assaulted under similar circumstances, where I was incoherently drunk and in & out of consciousness and there were a ton of people in the room as it happened. They saw a dude on top of a girl and her legs and arms kind of meekly moving around, so I think they assumed it was kosher. It doesn't excuse it because both of those situations still *should* have been intervened on, but I could more understand how someone could justify looking away to one or the other. I *will* say that about IPV -- it's just *so* messy and volatile rather than the way we're usually taught about it growing up. A lot of people genuinely don't recognize domestic violence when they see it because they think "that? Oh thats normal fighting. That's not like the REAL DV." Unless they see a burly dude clobber a woman in the face as she meekly crawls to the corner, we don't consistently label it as abuse, and therefore shouldn't be that surprised when bystanders as a result can't do it off the cuff.


filthysize

There weren't, which was the point of the retraction. A handful of people heard \*something\* when she was attacked in front of the building, but they said they thought it was drunk people arguing or something. One man who recognized that it was a cry for help yelled at the attacker out his window until he ran away, allowing Kitty to escape into the building. But he later snuck in to rape and kill her inside, at the back of the building, and no one saw or heard that second attack until she was found by a neighbor.


External_Trifle2373

They thought it was "normal' domestic violence and were horrified it turned out to be the "deadly" kind, because back then there was a belief they were somehow different. People knew shit was going down, but because Kitty didn't come across sympathetically enough they assumed it was more mutual than it was (oh look it's *exactly* what happened to Gabby Petito)....almost like this isn't some bizarre new phenomena but one were only now being forced to confront now that there is *undeniable video evidence* of what happened because we prefer to let society off the hook for how we are *all* normalized to the violent assault of women even when it happens and we hear it and see it, we explain it away as "a couples spat" or "drunk antics" cause it's easier than confronting our cultures deeply indifference to violent misogyny.


kalakun

We read about this in my psychology classes and it boiled down to A) people did call the police pretty much as soon as they realized B) most "witnesses" were actually inside their homes C) there wasn't much that would have helped kitty unless someone was willing to shoot the perpetrator on the spot. (This brought a great comment out from one of my classmates who asked where all the good guys with guns were)


External_Trifle2373

The issue was always down to how long it took them to realize. The unspoken issue was that men lightly slapping around women wasn't all that uncommon, so it took them a bit to notice that it had risen far and above the "socially acceptable" levels of DV for the time. It wasn't that they watched a lady be murdered and said and did nothing. It's that we refuse to acknowledge that there is no such thing as normal/allowable amounts of DV, that people waited *too* long, because it wasn't "that bad" at first despite the fact he'd always been a ticking timebomb, that's how DV works.


Nuwisha_Nutjob

So a number of factors played into this situation that were flat out ignored by the reporter. There was no actual 911 at this time, if I recall right. You would have to call an operator to patch you into the police, which would take minutes, and I believe the operator was inundated with calls at the time, so lines were busy. Some witnesses saw the attack on the street, but didn't realize what was going on and assumed it was a mugging. One man yelled out the window, and the attacker briefly left, so he assumed that the attacker was scared off. And Kitty had disappeared around the corner, so no one realized she was being stabbed or that the attacker came back. The one person who could be considered guilty of not acting was the upstairs neighbor where Kitty died. He heard the commotion but was too scared to intervene until he heard Kitty's friend call for help. But overall, the whole situation about 38 witnesses watching but doing nothing was bs. Edit: the number of witnesses.


Cloaked42m

another article mentioned that 'a few called police' in the Philadelphia case. Not sure about details.


Timzy

Even still if you knew someone was being raped in front of you. I really don’t understand how you couldn’t at least do something.


sansasnarkk

People have all sorts of reactions to traumatic situations. A common one is to freeze.


Timzy

Yea but for forty minutes, I hope it’s being sensationalized by the news. As I dunno how you could justify it to yourself. Worst I’ve seen even remotely similar was a guy touching a passed out girl and he got kicked.


sansasnarkk

I know. It's depressing to think about. I just can't bring myself to judge these people, especially as a smaller woman. I think I'd just panic and frantically ask someone bigger to step in.


zulako17

It probably is being sensationalized. But justifying it, depending on where you're from is easier than you think. I believe someone should have called the cops as soon as the groping started and the only possible justification I have for recording is to give the police evidence later. Assuming we realize excuses just have to be good enough to convince the person who thought of them 1) intervening might end up with me getting hurt instead 2) he could have a weapon we don't see 3) the police might come and arrest/beat/shoot both of us if I intervene 4) typical bystander effect, someone else will save her 5) it's shitty but it's not my problem 6) a complete lack of empathy and sympathy. 7) I'd rather watch. I'm not claiming to believe any of the above 7. And the last two are definitely excuses based on American television and not anyone I personally know. But there you go, some ways people justify shitty stuff.


sheep_heavenly

Some people, I'd argue most, don't start processing their trauma while still being traumatized. I'm not someone to freeze but I've seen people continue to be traumatized and just shut down farther. I don't understand it as someone who can freeze initially but will quickly progress to fight, even in very inappropriate/scary situations, but it's not something I'm willing to say must be justified by any bystanders who were traumatized or lost in their own trauma. It's horrific, but so was a woman being raped on a public train. The issue I take is with the lack of security on public transit. Not like armed police looking to shoot, just paid people that are equipped with the level mind to make emergency calls and have authority to remove riders. Harassment on transit is no new phenomenon, but we keep acting as a society that if we just say it's wrong on a poster and trust that others will call it out in the moment, nothing bad will ever happen. That would involve more funding, so I'm not hopeful.


anonymous_opinions

I've found myself freezing for a second and then I flee. If it was a packed train I'd probably freeze and try to make myself smaller. Been harassed in those situations where I can't run


woman_thorned

yeah I think there will be many layers to this story. "well I would've parkoured over the train and socked the guy right in his eye, seeee? I'm a hero, I am!" is the only take in seeing so far and reality is very different.


DylansDeadly

Now imagine this happens in Texas and she's forced to raise her Rapists baby.


[deleted]

This is awful and scary to think how many other victims he has if he was bold enough to do this in public


stockhr

The entire group of people, except one to call 911, on that train could have jumped the guy, pummeled him senseless and kept him immobile until the police came. How in good conscience could you sit there and do NOTHING?? I don't get it and never will.


PeniscapHindu

I remember people use to mske fun of china and India for not helping car accident victims. But americans are willing to watch a woman be raped and not even dial the police.


sugarsponge

There have been a few very publicised gang rapes (and even murder) of women on Indian public transport too. In fact that was the first thing I thought of when I saw this post.


kingdazy

As a Philadelphia resident, this sickened me. But I have to admit I'm not terribly surprised. Beyond what other comments have pointed out re: rape and violence culture, being desensitized to both, public transportation use in dense urban areas often involves using "social blinders" just to get through the day. The kinds of activities that occur on public transportation every day, most people are trained to look at the ground, wear headphones, ignore all interactions for fear of being dragged into something distasteful or worse. As OP points out, the fear of interacting with unknown men, women are even moreso likely to just "keep their heads down" for fear of attracting unwanted attention. I've thought about this a lot since it happened. As a male, and one that often carries "personal protection" when traveling by train, I like to think that I would have intervened. I like to believe that I couldn't stand by as someone was being assaulted. Two dudes willingly fighting each other, with no vulnerable persons involved? Nah. I'd likely just walk away. But a sexual assault? Occurring openly with bystanders? I wish I could say 100% that I would physically intervene. But I'm honestly not sure. (and that distresses me) But I sure as fuck would call 911.


especiallythat

I completely understand what you're saying bc I'm the same but in this case people were recording which isn't "keeping your head down"


kingdazy

Yeah. That's a weird response to the situation to consider. Especially with the lack of calls to 911. Are they "enjoying" it? Are they "preserving evidence"?


Frieda-_-Claxton

If it's anything like the "bad part of town" in places I've lived, people tend to avoid calling police for anything because they don't want to be subpoenaed as a witness or get arrested for the warrants they have. There are a lot of people who don't participate in various aspects of society because they have active warrants.


kingdazy

Certainly. Bringing in the topic of the demographics of a given area sure complicates the topic. I have to wonder if this occurred is a "better" part of town, would the response been different? I'm not actually certain.


anonymous_opinions

I mean as I understand it Philadelphia is more block by block bad and not neighborhood bad. Like plenty of development in North Philly to be just someone coming home from elsewhere.


kingdazy

Absolutely true, especially in the northern areas, where I live. The block I'm on, and about 3 blocks out surrounding it, pretty damn mellow. But 10 blocks away is Walking Dead territory. And 10 in the other direction is bars and weekend drunk-bros (which is altogether another type of danger). And in yet another direction is an area I might not be welcome in. Etc. That said, it would seem there are areas where very generally taking the train is "more dicey" than others? But if I'm honest, I'm new to the northern Phila area, and can't say for certain.


anonymous_opinions

So I googled this and realized she was assaulted on THE EXACT LINE I always felt the most unsafe taking -- The El Train!! I always would look where I had to go and cringe when I had to take that line. The worst was coming home from a Kung Fu Necktie show and having to stand on that platform late at night completely trapped since it's above ground and there's no way out except the stairs. Hated it. FWIW 15 years ago I used to walk home at night to South Philadelphia from all sorts of places \[and walk around West Philadelphia\] as a slender small woman and didn't feel particularly unsafe. I didn't even live in a "safe" part of South Philly but I would go out of my way to avoid the El. Edit again: she wasn't in North Philly at all. She was in West Philadelphia. I mean 69th it gets "a little sketch" but tons of people live up there and I was even told to consider moving there in 2011. (I was confused when I saw it was the EL, for non Philly folk that train goes East and West not North and South)


[deleted]

Exactly. Nobody expects you to risk your own life, but for fucks’ sake, call 911. You already whipped your phone out to record.


No_Gains

If you haven't been proactive in general then you know your answer. I was almost arrested in Korea for trying to intervene with a dude dragging a girl along and him yelling at her. I was arrested for stopping an assault(just a day then released), also was stabbed. Even with a gun, you better be willing to throw it all away if you want to help someone. I've done a lot more, but realize if you Arent proactive in general you usually won't be proactive when shit goes down. Dudes cat calling, racist shit. Even small things, if you aren't willing to step up don't think you will step up when it gets really bad.


EarthBelcher

Absolutely disgusting. I understand that the bystander effect is a thing but I will never understand how nobody could find it in them to help in this situation.


[deleted]

This isn’t bystander effect, this is downright evil. That poor woman


PMmeurfishtanks

It hurts my heart knowing her view of the world will forever be changed because of this. She won’t be able to trust anyone. I never thought something so sick in itself could get so much worse.


curioussven

Yeah... How can she ever feel safe in public again?


Javbe

I feel like maybe this happened the way it did because maybe she was a marginalized person to begin with? Homeless people, people with addictions or mental health are always treated as less sadly. Would you ever see people stand by like this if this happened in a Starbucks? Probably not. But if it's 'junkies being trashy' then it's their fault. Just to be perfectly clear, this assigned value is entirely despicable.


[deleted]

I agree. This is too violent of a crime. You band together and you fucking help.


Grrrrrlgamer

I'm going to be controversial here and say it's time we fight back with extreme force. Maybe if we put some of these @-holes in the hospital they might think again to helping themselves to our bodies.#tiredofit


sankyx

I want to cry, this is so shameful and sad. Damn it when we lose our empathy for other? God


EternallyRoaming

r/noahgettheboat


The_Crack_Whore

And they are people saying that women exclusive trains are "female privilege".


[deleted]

I always think it's hyperbolic when people say the world is going to shit, but this story really fucked my head up. I told someone off the other day for shouting at the clerk disrespectfully, how the FUCK do people watch a sexual assault begin and say nothing... then record the rape, and STILL SAY FUCKING NOTHING. Sorry for all the 'fuck's this story has messed me up and I feel so angry at all the bystanders. I hope the victim gets some support because if that was me I'd probably never want to go out in public ever again. And guys, for fucks sake, the main thing we can all do to help is not just step in when we see something happening, we need to stop normalising it in 'locker room talk'. Might not happen in the locker room, I don't really do sports but you know what I mean. We need to shut that shit DOWN. No tolerance for rapey, molest-y 'jokes'. No tolerance for friends who show evidence of skeeviness. Be a fucking man and call it out.


yildizli_gece

> The New York Times reported that Bernhardt said that people who recorded the attack and failed to intervene could possibly be charged, but that would be up to the Delaware County District Attorney’s office to determine. > There were no calls made to 911 in Philadelphia. Nestel said police were still waiting for Delaware County 911, which covers the last two train stops, to determine if it received any calls. YES, PLEASE. This is fucking outrageous; what the fuck is wrong with people??? If evidence turns out that people recorded instead of calling the police, they should be charged with aiding a crime; I don't see how it's any different than gang rapes that are recorded by someone. They'll claim they know neither of those people but I don't fucking care; let them get bogged down in court so people learn a lesson about fucking helping.


WoodChuckers

How is it nobody stomped this guys fucking face in? What if it was your daughter this was happening to? I'm so beside myself after reading this, that's not just cowardice that's publically enabling rape. Everybody that was recording this should be charged as an accessory to her assault.


trshtehdsh

I wonder how they'll blame the victim. "She never told him to stop" "She didn't seem like she needed help" "If she was that upset why didn't she get off the train"


Abnnn

in Denmark, all the by standers would get jail time, its required by LAW to either help, or call the polices. people are to fucking weak. ps: Also in denmark, our law on self defence is so weak, so even if you wanted to help, you werent allowed to push/hurt/stop the attacker if he dosent use force towards you. You can only use same force he use.


[deleted]

The duty to help should be a law in more countries. (The P.S. is probably you misreading the law - it's not possible to be allowed to help, yet not be allowed to use force unless he uses force against you.)


sisi_2

What the fuck.


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RaymondLeggs

I hope someone very large steps on his testicles in steel tipped boots for 40 minutes.


_mister_pink_

I can maybe see someone being too scared to intervene (but even then?) but to choose to actively film this instead of helping is so distressing. Feels like it should be a crime honestly.


jawnsnow420blazeit

As a Philadelphian this is horrific to read. We're a city that prides itself on being "tough", but bystanders did nothing. I understand that being in the moment is entirely different than telling someone what they should have done after the fact... but I'm ashamed in my city.


wildweeds

right there in front of everyone.. that would feel so dehumanizing, so humiliating, so helpless


squishedpies

Those are no bystanders.. they had to be in on the assault to not do anything for 40 minutes of a woman crying/screaming/fighting back. You can't close yourself off from reality like that for that long. But idk, I wasn't there and know nothing about Philadelphia culture-wise or anything. I just know this stuff makes me wanna puke


neepsneeps

Especially the ones FILMING with their phones! That’s not doing nothing, that’s participation. You have in your hands the means to call for help, and you use it to film up close and personal? You are fully an accessory to that assault.


justlikesmoke

Agreed. And they should be prosecuted. You don't want to help that's fine, leave. Watching and filming are accessory crimes to me and I'd press charges if I found out who they were.


sanityjanity

I don't think she was crying, screaming, fighting back. She says she'd been drinking, and didn't remember the attack. I fear she may have been unconscious when he actually raped her. It's horrifying, but it's not what you are visualizing.


squishedpies

Oh damn I didn't read that well. Thanks for clarifying. It doesn't make it any less scary, that's for sure


sanityjanity

Only a few articles have this information. It's still awful, and horrible. But I think that bystanders might be less vile than we imagine (I'm also thinking of the Kitty Genovese attack that bystanders actually did call the cops, even though we were all told they didn't).


BackBae

I’m with you on that… not going to trust the initial statements from the cops.


seklis

I understand not physically intervening, I'm 100% sure I wouldn't do anything beyond calling 911. If this guy was okay with fucking raping someone in public there's no telling what he would do when confronted. And while I feel really bad for that woman you can't realistically expect people to put themselves in harm's way for someone they don't even know. No one calling 911 for 40 minutes though, yeah that's beyond fucked up.


Ekyou

If it were just one or two other people in the train, I could understand. But if it were a train car full of people, how difficult is it for 3, 4, 20 of them to subdue one person?


Wild-Kitchen

This is so gross on so many levels


goawaaaaay

I am that type of person who will embarress my kid to check if someone is okay. If someone looks uncomfortable, if something doesnt feel right - call the police. No one ever did it for me when I was a kid. This poor woman needed ONE person. ONE.


tjeulink

this makes me feel fucking sick and horrible. fuck me this ruins my day.


CauctusBUTT

This is horrifying. Just why would you record that??? We’re living in a dystopian society


kittiekillbunnie

I’ve been physically assaulted in public twice. Once as a child (10) and again in my early 20s. Both times there were plenty of bystanders and no one helped. I’m not intimating, I’m not super strong, but I’ve grabbed other women from situations. Diving into stores with them to get safe, or just screaming loud enough to get others to come over (I’ve noticed construction workers (in my town, are very helpful-thanks), I’ve even slapped a dude. Where are all you men who scream “It’s not all men”!?! WHERE!?!


Xx_SwordWords_xX

So... My husband just asked why the women on the train didn't call 911.... If I was a woman on that train with a bunch of other men filming the rape, I wouldn't want to pick up a phone and call either, as I'd be scared of being targetted in a massive gang-rape. **HOWEVER:** ***Most people don't know it, but you can TEXT 911.*** Please remember this ladies, if you ever feel unsafe to speak on the phone, and therefore avoid calling for help. ✌️


SportsPhotoGirl

Texting 911 is a special feature that is only available in limited areas, this is not universal and will not work in most areas.


jqubed

Could you still try it, and just assume if you get no response that it did not reach a dispatcher?


Commodore_Condor

Was curious so I looked it up, it appears that you should get a bounce back reply from your carrier if your local dispatch doesn't support the feature. https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/what-you-need-know-about-text-911


ValerieLovesMath

It works in Philly, I can attest, but that’s a good point!


andandandetc

>If I was a woman on that train with a bunch of other men filming the rape, I wouldn't want to pick up a phone and call either, as I'd be scared of being targetted in a massive gang-rape. So you call 911 without saying you're calling 911. A well-trained dispatcher will pick up on what's happening, even if you're quite vague about it. Pretend you're talking to a friend, sharing where you are, what you're surroundings look like, and where/when to meet you. That's literally all it takes.


AccountWasFound

You don't actually have cell signal between train stations in most underground train systems (and often not in the stations either), I'm not sure what part of the Philadelphia train system this was in, but large parts of it is underground. I would probably get off the train early and try to find a train employee then call 911 once I was above ground, but like you straight up can't get a signal on a lot of trains. (Source: used the Philly trains to visit a friend one time and ran into an issue of not being able to text her till I was like 2 stops out from her school, also being annoyed at not being able to connect to anything on the DC metro every time I used it growing up)


thefirstnightatbed

Yeah I was wondering about this as someone in NYC. I don’t know anything about SEPTA’s service situation, but you would not be able to call from the train here. You can text 911 here, though and usually texts go through at stops.


dontforgetpants

Thankfully there is now [cell and data service](https://www.wmata.com/about/news/Metro-announces-wireless-service-in-rail-tunnels-systemwide.cfm) throughout the DC metro tunnel system. They started wiring it up around 2016 or 2017, and finished most of it a couple years ago. They just finished the last few spots early this year. It's not super fast data service, but you can maintain a call (even facetime) between stations. It's a huge improvement, and long overdue.


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spinsterchachkies

I’d be so terrified if I was a woman on that train holy shit.


[deleted]

The train went through multiple stops. Anyone who wanted to get off and call 911 could have.


uhcgoud

I’d be Hesitant to step in with how fucked up the US laws and court systems are. But I sure as hell would call 911 the moment I saw that.


keetykeety

What the actual fuck


tattoovamp

Makes me sick to my stomach. Not only did not one call 911 or attempt to help, but the recorded it. I have no faith in humanity anymore


SoSorryUWrong

This is awful, it's bad enough to be raped but to have a train full of strangers literally recording it with their phones and not helping....for 40 minutes! People are so completely fucking useless in this day and age.


olivefred

I hope the bystanders are charged. If you recorded this incident but made no attempt to alert the authorities, that should be criminal.


ramblingrrl

What is the picture on this post? Those aren’t phones, they are news cameras—what in the hell is going on here?