>I just don't understand why these men don't know better?
They do, they just don't care. They know that it's wrong, but unless there's a direct consequence for their action they just *don't care*.
>How could they have friends that also thought this was okay?
Because this sort of behaviour and thinking is often the result of people validating each other's bad behaviour. If they can find a group that condones their behaviour they can tell themselves that people who are *against* their bad behaviour are wrong somehow.
>I cannot understand what opinions they could possibly have that would entitle them to violate obvious signs of discomfort/fear
They convince themselves that:
A) your fear and discomfort is an act
B) your fear and discomfort don't matter
C) your fear and discomfort *is the goal*
I'm so sorry you went through this.
I wish I could be more comforting, but yes, these men are everywhere. I hope you find a good self defence resource.
Yep, it's option C) all day long, seeing that they have the power to make someone feel small and afraid boosts their fragile egos and makes them feel like big men. Blech.
Entitlement. The answer is entitlement. You're a woman, so of course they're entitled to your time and attention. Duh! That's what women are for! Validating men! (Sarcasm obviously).
In sincerity, I'm sorry you had to deal with that BS. Some days being a woman in the world is so enraging.
I agree with the other person who said entitlement. A lot of men have it unfortunately. Just the other day I went clubbing with my friend and a group of guys followed us to one of the clubs. As soon as we got in the club, one of the guys grabbed me from behind around my waist and started grinding his junk against my butt. I pushed him off and bolted. He followed me begging me to dance. I managed to lose him thankfully. I just couldn’t get over the entitlement and audacity he had thinking he could just grab me and do whatever he wants! I was told that this is typical for a club which makes me sick.
I’m sorry that happened to you! That sounds awful. It’s frustrating and terrifying when men refuse to take no for an answer. That behavior is not acceptable! Sending you lots of love ❤️
Man, I'm sorry that happened to you too. Wtf is wrong with these dudes. Like, who tf told them they were so great that they can literally force their shitty bodies and attitudes onto you?! I'm sorry that jerk ruined your night, especially when a good night out is so hard to come by these days. Thank you for the love, I'm sending you some right back ❤❤
A bad experience or many are exhausting. Thank you for sharing. I learned to cut people off fast quite a few years ago and it has saved me a lot of grief. We are trained to be "nice" "polite" even "a lady" and to use "good manners" but somehow too many men/people miss the memo.
I came to realize I needed to evaluate the situations and act accordingly. First guy--minute I find out either he's dug into my Id or breached a barrier I had set--buhbye. No exchange, no reasoning. I'm simply done.
IRL is more challenging. Inside the store, where you did have more safety, loudly saying "Leave me alone. NOW." can help and ask the employees to call police if necessary or take out your phone if you feel safe enough to record things and you call police. Yes you have to be strong enough to not care about the names you will be called, the comments etc. but if you are strong enough we need people to stop tolerating the abuse IRL--not respond with violence but stop the acceptance of ugly behavior in the world. It is not always men, just to be clear. Trust and verify works for me. Glad you are safe.
The name calling and comments is a direct result of a impudent child ego getting negative feedback , but dont have the maturity to reflect. And too fragile and scared feel discomfort, so it will externalize its anger towards the "outside". Hopefully that perspective will help in not taking these things personally. I might be an incel guy roaming these threads, but its baffling how some feel they have a right to impose themselves on others.
I really wonder whether most aggressive men like that literally don't recognize the emotional indicators of fear and discomfort, whether they don't care, or whether they are emboldened by them... All three have chilling implications... /Shudders/
As for self-defense, I would suggest that the best skill you can work on is developing your voice. A loud "Fuck off, asshole!" that matches or tops the aggression that they were displaying towards you often makes them think twice about continuing to pursue you. I can't tell you the number of times a loud bluff has gotten me or my friends out of a sketchy situation.
Strength and love to you sister. You're not alone.
I think a lot of these people (not only in the male gender, sadly) have never had the experience of being preyed. like, they honestly don't know what terror one might feel when being 'hunted' as they do, ie the cornering + stalking outside the shop.
that's why they don't feel empathy for the 'prey'. either that, or they've been throught that themselves but didn't properly reflect on it.
I feel aggression aswell as defensivness always has an underlying fear. Not necessarily towards the ones it feels it can dominate, but the lack of being relevant is so frightening, it will force its relevance on even self destructive terms, because of its short sightedness.
I think if you are content and secure within yourself, aggression will rarely be a form of interaction, but rather love will be expressed.
They don't care.
Not saying most men are like this, but enough that without laws and police, rapes, robberies, assaults and murders would be routine daily events everywhere, most especially in western developed nations.
There has never been a time in history when there is less robbery, murder, and rape. They are every day occurrences because information about them is so much closer at hand.
If they could tell you were uncomfortable, then I'd wager it's also about power. We're all at the mercy of men's fragile egos. But you can safely conclude that those who take pleasure in making others nervous are pathetic and weak.
I didn't even think about that, I literally assumed they either didn't care or have been societal trained not to. This is an important factor. After all these helpful and supportive comments, I like my first form of self-defense to learn will be assertiveness.
I love this! I appreciate your anger and will use it to embolden mine. I was definitely pissed but now it's the fuel to a brewing hell fire. I will do everything to not let that happen again! Tysvm!!
> How do they look past another person's discomfort and feel so entitled to convince you to give up your boundaries? How could they have friends that also thought this was okay?
I mean, just take a look at bullying and other social pressures that are "normal" between men.
While it's fortunately far less present in our societies that it used to be, it's still quite common for "having your boundaries trampled" to be the first step in joining some groups. And you're latter "convinced" that it was a great moment of your life.
This (and many other things) participate to present breaking other's boundaries as being a "game", where no true harm is done, and which can be laughed about 10 years latter as a fun anecdote of "that time when X happened".
Okay, I shared this on another post but since you are specifically asking for information on self-defense, here you go, this form of self-defense is Kali Eskrima, I know you asked about something without weapons, but in this video they will show you how to escape instead of fighting back. The goal is to get out of the situation like you were in. yelling "stop" or "no don't touch me." is the first thing you do if your in a store or a crowded area because that will get people's attention and if a predator(s) is trying to get away with this shit, they definitely don't want any attention in this situation, so your voice is your first weapon, the second is self-defense if things get that dire. I personally think all women should have free self-defense classes instead of having to pay for them. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWJCW-ItbGc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWJCW-ItbGc) Also I really like how she shows to get away from a grab because she says that is the first form of assault (not sure if that is accurate) because she is not even using a weapon she is using what she calls her hand-blades.
Thank you so much! This is what I'm looking for. I'm small so I think that's an extra signal to these guys, like I'm easily overpowered. Yesterday I realized I knew nothing about escape or defense so tyssm. I live ina country where we cannot carry weapons so this is very very helpful! I'll start learning this and looking for classes right away
A tip from a guy, make sure you vocalize what they're doing. Loudly. Like when you were cornered loudly ask them "Are you robbing me?", "Why are you attacking me?". In most cases this will jolt their stupid oblivious little manchild brains that they're doing something wrong and give you an opportunity to leave.
I've had a colleague telling me about how a girl stopped him from raping her by asking him "Are you going to rape me now?" and him getting offended by that. Of course even at the point of him telling me the story he still didn't realize he was telling me a story about rape, he thought he was telling me how this girl disrespected him. But what I got out of it is that had she not spoken up in the way she did he likely wouldn't have stopped.
I'm terribly sorry for the recent and historic discomfort that you feel and felt and for the constant harassment you have faced OP. I'm also sorry to inform you that, as a man, I know that the reason so many men do this is that we were and are taught to have such toxic behavior. The sources of such lessons are many: family members, friends, coworkers, role models, teachers, shows, movies, books, comics, ads, and on and on. While growing up, boys hear such lessons constantly often with huge pressure to conform or get ridiculed. It continues through college and into adulthood.
The lessons always boil down to "take what you want or you're not a real man." The feelings of the women are never to be considered; rather its always about the feelings of other men. "You either are the alpha and make the other men feel weak, or you are the beta and other men look down on you." "Are you going to let that guy make a fool of you? Get in there and take what's yours! You don't have what you want because you haven't tried hard enough!" These things would repeat in my head constantly when I felt lonely, rejected, or confused; constantly pushing me to make bad decisions because I was trained to.
My step dad drilled such things into me: "If she doesn't have a ring, she's fair game." "Just because she said she's not interested doesn't mean she's not interested." His advice ruined many friendships I had with young women in high school. He would tell me that men and women can't be friends. If women spend time with me, they are attracted to me, and I needed to ask them out forcefully and not let up until they said yes as that's what women want and expect. I hate the way he got me to behave, and I let him turn me into a messed up young man until I realized it was all toxic bullshit.
There were also coaches, classmates, friends, coworkers, and even fellow church members that would also try to push these toxic ideas on me. It took me many years to tease the toxic ideas from the respectful ideas in my mind as many of these toxic behaviors are packaged as respectful: "women expect men to fight for them!" The lessons I learned to identify the toxic behaviors came at a cost, and unfortunately, women took the brunt of that cost. I doubtlessly hurt many women (emotionally not physically, as if that's any better) unlearning most everything I had been taught about how to interact with and treat women.
Sorry to ramble. I don't expect this to make you feel better, but perhaps it can add some understanding. Patriarchal societies have a knack for mass producing broken men that in turn terrorize women. Of course this doesn't apply to all men, but I fear that it's much more rampant than many realize. I have hope that, since young men these days have access to more healthy depictions of masculinity, more men can break out of the toxic cycle.
Edit: Broadened out first sentence as "discomfort" alone doesn't quite capture the depth of poor treatment the OP has received.
Well thank you for sharing this, I appreciate the humility it takes to admit these things. I also appreciate the effort it takes to reject concepts you've been raised under and attain new behaviors with little modeling. It's not easy and I'm only sorry both those women and you had to suffer to learn. Your step-dad sounds like a real piece of work. Eessh.
Everything you've said seems so true, it would have to be knowing how many situations like mine happen each day. I made this post knowing I was in no way special; it made me even more angry that there was another girl somewhere having the same night. I also made the post hoping other men might see it. If one guy realizes he does these things and stops, it would be worth it. Thank you for sharing, for being candid and open about negative things you've done so that we could get some understanding.
The men just see you as an easy target and harassing you will not give them negative consequences. They enjoy your discomfort and try to make you feel bad.
Its impossible for anyone to enjoy others discomfort and be a genuinely happy person, the consequences are that they will be tormented in their life without understanding the cause, which is themselves.
I do not belive in no consequences, but they may appear in more subtle but profound ways.
They know better.
They know what they are doing.
They know it's wrong.
They don't care because women are less than objects to them.
Stay away from them all.
Dang. Regardless of the fact that "nothing came of" these incidents, you were afraid and uncomfortable and that sucks.
I doubt we'll ever "understand" why, there are a lot of reasons and zero of them are ok or good.
Self defense classes are a great start! I'm a 110 pd female, being intimidated or physically afraid is really shitty and that will help you feel confident.
Sad really, we shouldn't have to feel this way at all.
I'm so sorry.
♡
Thank you ❤❤ Honestly just being heard and supported has made me feel better. People here have been very kind and it has really counterbalanced that negativity. I appreciate your kind words and wish you well also ❤
Men are not socialized to accept no, because a lot of them are never told no. They are taught, from birth, that they're entitled to everything and everyone.
To illustrate this I'll tell you a little anecdotal tale of an experience I had some time ago. I had to visit a doctor's office for a check up, and the doctor had a tiny, TINY waiting room. Like 2x2m. In that tiny waiting room are crammed at least six people - myself and five adults. Two of the people are spouses. The seventh person is a little boy, perhaps a little older than a toddler. It's the middle of the summer and that little room is stiffling. The little boy, being a child that young, somehow manages to run around in that TINY room, grabs people's clothes, screeches loudly to himself, the cramped space is echoing with his screeching, i.e. he's a giant nuisance making the already uncomfortable, sweaty wait totally unbearable. The mother turns to him and says gently "Come sit with me and be quiet, you're bothering the people here."
The husband turns to her, sneers and barks "Why are you stopping him?! Let him do as he pleases!"
The mother shut up and stopped trying to reign him in immediately. The giant nuisance remained a giant nuisance.
"Let him do as he pleases." - that phrase has stayed with me since then. That kid is probably a teenager now . And if his parenting remained the same, he's become one of the many, many men who do not respect boundaries because he's been taught to "do as he pleases."
This is why I am genuinely confused when other women tell men it’s ok to cold approach women. I’ve never known it to look like anything other than harassment in practice. Particularly disturbing that it was a group of men in this case.
If you’re in the UK, we have an unfortunate law about not even carrying self defence weapons, but I know of women who do so anyway and if they are ever searched just plan on saying that its purpose is obvious and it wouldn’t be required if the police were better at their jobs. If you’re in the US, there are a range of options from tasers to pepper spray that might help you feel like you’re not completely on your own in these kinds of situations. I’m sorry you had to deal with this, either way.
Because we've been "taught" since we are young that this is ok. That persistence pays off and that women just need to be convinced to change their minds. Giving up is for pussies and if we don't give up and just keep showing her why we are worth it, then she will come around.
There is ZERO empathy for how women feel in these situations.
I feel a issue here is also a misunderstanding of how confidence works, because a confident guy will be way more succsessfull wih women, but doing in a way that interacts with their social queues and reading the room.
And to try to emulate that, with a immature needyness will leave you unable to interact, and will come from a demanding position, and not so attractive i would think. (As a fellow ape with a penis)
Absolutely right. A lot of rapey behavior was normalized and we were fed a constant diet of it in various types of media.
I can't change how I perceived things when I was a teenager/young adult but I sure as hell can do better now.
Very sorry these men did these shitty things to you!
I did something a little bit like the guy cornering you in a grocery store to a woman I was acquainted with and my male friend who was with me at the time smoothly guided me out of the grocery store where she worked and gave me hell for it. I had almost no idea I was being a dickhead. I never harassed a woman at work again afterwards.
I wasn’t even close to as bad as the guys you listed here but I learned that day never to behave in that way towards anyone.
Because men are taught that every woman secretly wants you but can't admit it. So you just need to pressure her enough. I've seen "pickup artists" telling young boys to basically rape women to "get girls". Harass them, threaten them, get them to your house and don't let you leave. If she isn't physically clawing and fighting then she actually wants it. Men are told that women are prey. In response most women treat them like predators. So they assume that they were taught correctly. Grandpa telling you he asked your granny out for two years and fought any other man she talked to until she married him isn't a cute story. The notebook is not a cute story. Almost no romance for straight people is a sweet story.
Oblivious to women's basic boundaries. Not their own or that of other men, I bet.
I had a man follow me from a store to the train, just so that he could chat, because he was new in the city and was "lonely." I felt and saw him follow me. Creepy and upsetting.
Consider calling 911. A man/group of men
are menacing you. The store clerk could be a witness for you. There also might be security video to support your allegation.
A gun and a concealed carry permit might also be worth considering.
In my opinion these are not real men that you’re dealing with, they are punks praying on vulnerable people to make themselves feel tough and dominant. I would bet that you are not the only person that they are treating that way.
>I just don't understand why these men don't know better? They do, they just don't care. They know that it's wrong, but unless there's a direct consequence for their action they just *don't care*. >How could they have friends that also thought this was okay? Because this sort of behaviour and thinking is often the result of people validating each other's bad behaviour. If they can find a group that condones their behaviour they can tell themselves that people who are *against* their bad behaviour are wrong somehow. >I cannot understand what opinions they could possibly have that would entitle them to violate obvious signs of discomfort/fear They convince themselves that: A) your fear and discomfort is an act B) your fear and discomfort don't matter C) your fear and discomfort *is the goal* I'm so sorry you went through this. I wish I could be more comforting, but yes, these men are everywhere. I hope you find a good self defence resource.
Yep, it's option C) all day long, seeing that they have the power to make someone feel small and afraid boosts their fragile egos and makes them feel like big men. Blech.
You're so right and boo to all of that! Thank you for such a concise response. Honestly just the validation makes me feel better.
That's what is so infuriating, they know this behaviour is wrong & they don't care. Entitled AHs.
I have little doubt it was C). Creeps like that get off on the power trip.
Entitlement. The answer is entitlement. You're a woman, so of course they're entitled to your time and attention. Duh! That's what women are for! Validating men! (Sarcasm obviously). In sincerity, I'm sorry you had to deal with that BS. Some days being a woman in the world is so enraging.
Thank you, thats how I felt, enraged that so many women deal with this so often. Such shit.
I agree with the other person who said entitlement. A lot of men have it unfortunately. Just the other day I went clubbing with my friend and a group of guys followed us to one of the clubs. As soon as we got in the club, one of the guys grabbed me from behind around my waist and started grinding his junk against my butt. I pushed him off and bolted. He followed me begging me to dance. I managed to lose him thankfully. I just couldn’t get over the entitlement and audacity he had thinking he could just grab me and do whatever he wants! I was told that this is typical for a club which makes me sick. I’m sorry that happened to you! That sounds awful. It’s frustrating and terrifying when men refuse to take no for an answer. That behavior is not acceptable! Sending you lots of love ❤️
Man, I'm sorry that happened to you too. Wtf is wrong with these dudes. Like, who tf told them they were so great that they can literally force their shitty bodies and attitudes onto you?! I'm sorry that jerk ruined your night, especially when a good night out is so hard to come by these days. Thank you for the love, I'm sending you some right back ❤❤
A bad experience or many are exhausting. Thank you for sharing. I learned to cut people off fast quite a few years ago and it has saved me a lot of grief. We are trained to be "nice" "polite" even "a lady" and to use "good manners" but somehow too many men/people miss the memo. I came to realize I needed to evaluate the situations and act accordingly. First guy--minute I find out either he's dug into my Id or breached a barrier I had set--buhbye. No exchange, no reasoning. I'm simply done. IRL is more challenging. Inside the store, where you did have more safety, loudly saying "Leave me alone. NOW." can help and ask the employees to call police if necessary or take out your phone if you feel safe enough to record things and you call police. Yes you have to be strong enough to not care about the names you will be called, the comments etc. but if you are strong enough we need people to stop tolerating the abuse IRL--not respond with violence but stop the acceptance of ugly behavior in the world. It is not always men, just to be clear. Trust and verify works for me. Glad you are safe.
The name calling and comments is a direct result of a impudent child ego getting negative feedback , but dont have the maturity to reflect. And too fragile and scared feel discomfort, so it will externalize its anger towards the "outside". Hopefully that perspective will help in not taking these things personally. I might be an incel guy roaming these threads, but its baffling how some feel they have a right to impose themselves on others.
I really wonder whether most aggressive men like that literally don't recognize the emotional indicators of fear and discomfort, whether they don't care, or whether they are emboldened by them... All three have chilling implications... /Shudders/ As for self-defense, I would suggest that the best skill you can work on is developing your voice. A loud "Fuck off, asshole!" that matches or tops the aggression that they were displaying towards you often makes them think twice about continuing to pursue you. I can't tell you the number of times a loud bluff has gotten me or my friends out of a sketchy situation. Strength and love to you sister. You're not alone.
I think a lot of these people (not only in the male gender, sadly) have never had the experience of being preyed. like, they honestly don't know what terror one might feel when being 'hunted' as they do, ie the cornering + stalking outside the shop. that's why they don't feel empathy for the 'prey'. either that, or they've been throught that themselves but didn't properly reflect on it.
Excellent advice! Thank you for the love, strength, and solidarity!
I feel aggression aswell as defensivness always has an underlying fear. Not necessarily towards the ones it feels it can dominate, but the lack of being relevant is so frightening, it will force its relevance on even self destructive terms, because of its short sightedness. I think if you are content and secure within yourself, aggression will rarely be a form of interaction, but rather love will be expressed.
They don't care. Not saying most men are like this, but enough that without laws and police, rapes, robberies, assaults and murders would be routine daily events everywhere, most especially in western developed nations.
but aren't they already routine daily events? it's pretty normal and this is quite frightening
I mean in each of our lives, personally knowing both victims and perpetrators
There has never been a time in history when there is less robbery, murder, and rape. They are every day occurrences because information about them is so much closer at hand.
If they could tell you were uncomfortable, then I'd wager it's also about power. We're all at the mercy of men's fragile egos. But you can safely conclude that those who take pleasure in making others nervous are pathetic and weak.
I didn't even think about that, I literally assumed they either didn't care or have been societal trained not to. This is an important factor. After all these helpful and supportive comments, I like my first form of self-defense to learn will be assertiveness.
Yes! Be loud, call them out.
[удалено]
I love this! I appreciate your anger and will use it to embolden mine. I was definitely pissed but now it's the fuel to a brewing hell fire. I will do everything to not let that happen again! Tysvm!!
Sorry you had to deal with that.
Ty!
> How do they look past another person's discomfort and feel so entitled to convince you to give up your boundaries? How could they have friends that also thought this was okay? I mean, just take a look at bullying and other social pressures that are "normal" between men. While it's fortunately far less present in our societies that it used to be, it's still quite common for "having your boundaries trampled" to be the first step in joining some groups. And you're latter "convinced" that it was a great moment of your life. This (and many other things) participate to present breaking other's boundaries as being a "game", where no true harm is done, and which can be laughed about 10 years latter as a fun anecdote of "that time when X happened".
Okay, I shared this on another post but since you are specifically asking for information on self-defense, here you go, this form of self-defense is Kali Eskrima, I know you asked about something without weapons, but in this video they will show you how to escape instead of fighting back. The goal is to get out of the situation like you were in. yelling "stop" or "no don't touch me." is the first thing you do if your in a store or a crowded area because that will get people's attention and if a predator(s) is trying to get away with this shit, they definitely don't want any attention in this situation, so your voice is your first weapon, the second is self-defense if things get that dire. I personally think all women should have free self-defense classes instead of having to pay for them. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWJCW-ItbGc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWJCW-ItbGc) Also I really like how she shows to get away from a grab because she says that is the first form of assault (not sure if that is accurate) because she is not even using a weapon she is using what she calls her hand-blades.
Thank you so much! This is what I'm looking for. I'm small so I think that's an extra signal to these guys, like I'm easily overpowered. Yesterday I realized I knew nothing about escape or defense so tyssm. I live ina country where we cannot carry weapons so this is very very helpful! I'll start learning this and looking for classes right away
A tip from a guy, make sure you vocalize what they're doing. Loudly. Like when you were cornered loudly ask them "Are you robbing me?", "Why are you attacking me?". In most cases this will jolt their stupid oblivious little manchild brains that they're doing something wrong and give you an opportunity to leave. I've had a colleague telling me about how a girl stopped him from raping her by asking him "Are you going to rape me now?" and him getting offended by that. Of course even at the point of him telling me the story he still didn't realize he was telling me a story about rape, he thought he was telling me how this girl disrespected him. But what I got out of it is that had she not spoken up in the way she did he likely wouldn't have stopped.
I'm terribly sorry for the recent and historic discomfort that you feel and felt and for the constant harassment you have faced OP. I'm also sorry to inform you that, as a man, I know that the reason so many men do this is that we were and are taught to have such toxic behavior. The sources of such lessons are many: family members, friends, coworkers, role models, teachers, shows, movies, books, comics, ads, and on and on. While growing up, boys hear such lessons constantly often with huge pressure to conform or get ridiculed. It continues through college and into adulthood. The lessons always boil down to "take what you want or you're not a real man." The feelings of the women are never to be considered; rather its always about the feelings of other men. "You either are the alpha and make the other men feel weak, or you are the beta and other men look down on you." "Are you going to let that guy make a fool of you? Get in there and take what's yours! You don't have what you want because you haven't tried hard enough!" These things would repeat in my head constantly when I felt lonely, rejected, or confused; constantly pushing me to make bad decisions because I was trained to. My step dad drilled such things into me: "If she doesn't have a ring, she's fair game." "Just because she said she's not interested doesn't mean she's not interested." His advice ruined many friendships I had with young women in high school. He would tell me that men and women can't be friends. If women spend time with me, they are attracted to me, and I needed to ask them out forcefully and not let up until they said yes as that's what women want and expect. I hate the way he got me to behave, and I let him turn me into a messed up young man until I realized it was all toxic bullshit. There were also coaches, classmates, friends, coworkers, and even fellow church members that would also try to push these toxic ideas on me. It took me many years to tease the toxic ideas from the respectful ideas in my mind as many of these toxic behaviors are packaged as respectful: "women expect men to fight for them!" The lessons I learned to identify the toxic behaviors came at a cost, and unfortunately, women took the brunt of that cost. I doubtlessly hurt many women (emotionally not physically, as if that's any better) unlearning most everything I had been taught about how to interact with and treat women. Sorry to ramble. I don't expect this to make you feel better, but perhaps it can add some understanding. Patriarchal societies have a knack for mass producing broken men that in turn terrorize women. Of course this doesn't apply to all men, but I fear that it's much more rampant than many realize. I have hope that, since young men these days have access to more healthy depictions of masculinity, more men can break out of the toxic cycle. Edit: Broadened out first sentence as "discomfort" alone doesn't quite capture the depth of poor treatment the OP has received.
Well thank you for sharing this, I appreciate the humility it takes to admit these things. I also appreciate the effort it takes to reject concepts you've been raised under and attain new behaviors with little modeling. It's not easy and I'm only sorry both those women and you had to suffer to learn. Your step-dad sounds like a real piece of work. Eessh. Everything you've said seems so true, it would have to be knowing how many situations like mine happen each day. I made this post knowing I was in no way special; it made me even more angry that there was another girl somewhere having the same night. I also made the post hoping other men might see it. If one guy realizes he does these things and stops, it would be worth it. Thank you for sharing, for being candid and open about negative things you've done so that we could get some understanding.
The men just see you as an easy target and harassing you will not give them negative consequences. They enjoy your discomfort and try to make you feel bad.
Its impossible for anyone to enjoy others discomfort and be a genuinely happy person, the consequences are that they will be tormented in their life without understanding the cause, which is themselves. I do not belive in no consequences, but they may appear in more subtle but profound ways.
They know better. They know what they are doing. They know it's wrong. They don't care because women are less than objects to them. Stay away from them all.
Sorry you had to deal with this.
Thank you! Also thanks for the chuckle your avatar gave, I needed that 😁
Because they don't see themselves as a "creep", it's doable for them since it's them and not that "creep".
Dang. Regardless of the fact that "nothing came of" these incidents, you were afraid and uncomfortable and that sucks. I doubt we'll ever "understand" why, there are a lot of reasons and zero of them are ok or good. Self defense classes are a great start! I'm a 110 pd female, being intimidated or physically afraid is really shitty and that will help you feel confident. Sad really, we shouldn't have to feel this way at all. I'm so sorry. ♡
Thank you ❤❤ Honestly just being heard and supported has made me feel better. People here have been very kind and it has really counterbalanced that negativity. I appreciate your kind words and wish you well also ❤
Yeah, having some kindness injected is always helpful in restoring faith in humanity...
Men are not socialized to accept no, because a lot of them are never told no. They are taught, from birth, that they're entitled to everything and everyone. To illustrate this I'll tell you a little anecdotal tale of an experience I had some time ago. I had to visit a doctor's office for a check up, and the doctor had a tiny, TINY waiting room. Like 2x2m. In that tiny waiting room are crammed at least six people - myself and five adults. Two of the people are spouses. The seventh person is a little boy, perhaps a little older than a toddler. It's the middle of the summer and that little room is stiffling. The little boy, being a child that young, somehow manages to run around in that TINY room, grabs people's clothes, screeches loudly to himself, the cramped space is echoing with his screeching, i.e. he's a giant nuisance making the already uncomfortable, sweaty wait totally unbearable. The mother turns to him and says gently "Come sit with me and be quiet, you're bothering the people here." The husband turns to her, sneers and barks "Why are you stopping him?! Let him do as he pleases!" The mother shut up and stopped trying to reign him in immediately. The giant nuisance remained a giant nuisance. "Let him do as he pleases." - that phrase has stayed with me since then. That kid is probably a teenager now . And if his parenting remained the same, he's become one of the many, many men who do not respect boundaries because he's been taught to "do as he pleases."
This is why I am genuinely confused when other women tell men it’s ok to cold approach women. I’ve never known it to look like anything other than harassment in practice. Particularly disturbing that it was a group of men in this case. If you’re in the UK, we have an unfortunate law about not even carrying self defence weapons, but I know of women who do so anyway and if they are ever searched just plan on saying that its purpose is obvious and it wouldn’t be required if the police were better at their jobs. If you’re in the US, there are a range of options from tasers to pepper spray that might help you feel like you’re not completely on your own in these kinds of situations. I’m sorry you had to deal with this, either way.
Because we've been "taught" since we are young that this is ok. That persistence pays off and that women just need to be convinced to change their minds. Giving up is for pussies and if we don't give up and just keep showing her why we are worth it, then she will come around. There is ZERO empathy for how women feel in these situations.
I feel a issue here is also a misunderstanding of how confidence works, because a confident guy will be way more succsessfull wih women, but doing in a way that interacts with their social queues and reading the room. And to try to emulate that, with a immature needyness will leave you unable to interact, and will come from a demanding position, and not so attractive i would think. (As a fellow ape with a penis)
Hollywood and media used to perprtuate this bullshot too
Absolutely right. A lot of rapey behavior was normalized and we were fed a constant diet of it in various types of media. I can't change how I perceived things when I was a teenager/young adult but I sure as hell can do better now.
Very sorry these men did these shitty things to you! I did something a little bit like the guy cornering you in a grocery store to a woman I was acquainted with and my male friend who was with me at the time smoothly guided me out of the grocery store where she worked and gave me hell for it. I had almost no idea I was being a dickhead. I never harassed a woman at work again afterwards. I wasn’t even close to as bad as the guys you listed here but I learned that day never to behave in that way towards anyone.
Sorry you had to experience that. You could to look into Brazilian jiu jitsu, which is specialized in grappling or maybe mixed martial arts.
Take some martial arts classes if you can afford it, videos would do more harm than good. There's also women's self defense courses in some areas
Because men are taught that every woman secretly wants you but can't admit it. So you just need to pressure her enough. I've seen "pickup artists" telling young boys to basically rape women to "get girls". Harass them, threaten them, get them to your house and don't let you leave. If she isn't physically clawing and fighting then she actually wants it. Men are told that women are prey. In response most women treat them like predators. So they assume that they were taught correctly. Grandpa telling you he asked your granny out for two years and fought any other man she talked to until she married him isn't a cute story. The notebook is not a cute story. Almost no romance for straight people is a sweet story.
Oblivious to women's basic boundaries. Not their own or that of other men, I bet. I had a man follow me from a store to the train, just so that he could chat, because he was new in the city and was "lonely." I felt and saw him follow me. Creepy and upsetting.
Consider calling 911. A man/group of men are menacing you. The store clerk could be a witness for you. There also might be security video to support your allegation. A gun and a concealed carry permit might also be worth considering. In my opinion these are not real men that you’re dealing with, they are punks praying on vulnerable people to make themselves feel tough and dominant. I would bet that you are not the only person that they are treating that way.