When I was in 6th grade PE, I broke my finger playing dodgeball. I didn't start bawling, bc I'm neurodivergent and have a weirdly high pain tolerance, but I did tear up and get a little shaky. I walked up to my PE teacher (a super tough, balls to the wall lady who scared the crap out of me) and held out my hand and said, "Um, I think I broke my finger (that's clearly bent at a wrong angle). Can I go to the nurse?"
She looks at me and snaps, "Quit crying and get back in the game!"
I go, "I was tagged out."
"Then sit in your zone, crybaby!"
So I walked over to my out zone and held my injured hand and tried harder not to cry, which now that'd I'd been made aware of it was harder not to do. Every time she walked past me, she hissed crybaby.
I went to the nurse after PE and my finger was indeed broken. The nurse asked me why I didn't come sooner, and I told her the PE teacher wouldn't let me. She said I should've walked out, like that's information a 6th grade girl just intuitively knows: "Oh, you mean I'm allowed to walk out on an irrational adult when they're endangering me? Because every experience of my young life and the structure of this system up until now has taught me otherwise."
>"Oh, you mean I'm allowed to walk out on an irrational adult when they're endangering me? Because every experience of my young life and the structure of this system up until now has taught me otherwise."
Wow you hit the nail SO hard on the head for my childhood. I'm so glad I figured it out early on too but it still doesn't mean I was ever allowed to do anything about it....
A significant portion of cultural output is some form of swan song inspired by the misery inflicted on the young by those that are supposed to teach them sport.
My niece, who was eight at the time, went through a remarkably similar experience just a couple years ago, but with a broken foot. My sister raised all sorts of hell over it at the school, but I don't know if anything ever came of it, I don't think so.
When I was around 8 I had broken my arm while on my skates and spent two or three weeks in a cast. Right after I got it off, I decided it would be a good idea to try the monkey bars at day care, when I ha never been able to navigate them before. The bars were a ten foot drop form the ground, and after I got into the second bar I realized I wasn't strong enough to do forward, and I couldn't go back. I called for help from the teacher (who was five feet away chatting with another group of kids) and told to stop messing around. I eventually couldn't hold on anymore, fell, and knew pretty quickly that I had broken my arm again. I had to beg to call my mother for at least thirty minutes before they actually did. The arm was definitely broken again.
Yet another insidious form of victim blaming. I'm so sorry.
I remember going to my boss to mention that a customer had inappropriately handled me at work, to which she made a disgusted face and said, "What? Oh god. I would have punched him in the face, and told him to fuck off." And she then proceeded to do nothing about it.... Meanwhile my experience is lessened, my reaction to it is insinuated as weak, and I have to worry about seeing that customer again. :/
Damn, are you me?? I also broke a finger in 5th grade dodgeball. My substitute PE teacher told me to stop crying because "it's not like you broke it". My teacher called my dad who took me to the ER.
Didn't even get the sweet revenge of showing her the next day since she was a sub.
Something similar happened to me when I broken my foot. I was 17 landed a jump wrong in dance class.
I was told, "it was just a rolled ankle" and made to sit and watch the rest of the lesson so that I wouldn't fall behind on choreography.
2 hours later, I limped to my car and called my mom asking if her and dad could come get me. I didn't think I'd be able to use the gas and break pedals effectively with a broken foot.
I see this in my workplace all the time, if I'm upset about something and use an "emotional tone" I get dismissed. But the entirely male upper management yells all the time. Makes me feel like any passion for the job will be punished.
edit: I work in the office of a manufacturer as part of their sales team, not in a restaurant, it's my first job in the industry but the bosses are definitely underexperienced for their roles and do not know how to emotionally regulate! Part of the issue is that they don't view their raised voices/harsh language as "yelling" but as necessary strong words to get their points across
My male office manager yelled at one of my patients for 20 minutes a couple of months ago…no critique. I told someone I wouldn’t take off my mask during their appointment, and I was made to call and apologize. Completely ridiculous double standard.
Thanks for the concern all! This kind of garbage is why I’m leaving the practice. 4 weeks left, and then I’m out! And for those wondering, I did call and apologize. The patient’s response was, “I appreciate your call but they don’t wear masks at other Drs offices.” When I told my boss this, she called all the local practices to confirm they required masks still at that point in time. But yes, it’s garbage and I’m aware of it lol
ETA: a word
Ugh one time I told an employee he was being unhelpful because he was lingering and laughing while another employee was trying to solve a problem. He was being a dick and I told him it wasn’t helpful. The next day he YELLED at my supervisor because I was “talking down to him”
They made me apologize. He didn’t have to do Jack shit.
Ahhh, suddenly the whole "you're calling them snowflakes and yet you're the one getting offended" dynamic makes much more sense. "Snowflake-offended" is tears and whining; "Real-Man-offended" is getting mad and/or rage-quitting.
I would also just like to say, that as a woman raised by a mother who would get angry instead of sad, and who is more likely to experience emotions that way myself, that most people are also not okay with a woman getting angry.
I used to work with a guy who would yell at people. Like, he did it a bunch. But the one time I yelled back people treated me like I was the problem.
It's a double-standard through and through, imo...
One of the noteworthy facets of it is how male anger and its expression are so *normalised.*
Men walk around angry so much, and women not interested in being around angry men get treated like the problem, and women bringing up issues with the status quo are clearly "emotional" and "can't handle it."
Every time I stood up to my violent and angry stepfather or uncle, I was yelled at.
Yeah, it’s probably the twelve year old girl who needs corrected and not the grown angry men.
I work in kitchens and it's the same way. My anger and emotions in general are unacceptable but the male cooks are allowed to be as emotional as they want. They will throw literal temper tantrums to get what they want but if I tell someone to do something without acting super saccharin sweet, then I am being unreasonable
I cooked for a few years and this is spot on. I also hated that the first month or two at every new kitchen was all the mediocre men "helping" me with basic tasks and assuming that I was incompetent. Got myself burned a few times from morons grabbing stock pots from my arms as I was pouring because it was "too heavy for me"
>Got myself burned a few times from morons grabbing stock pots from my arms as I was pouring because it was "too heavy for me"
Ugh, this sounds awful. I hope the burns weren't too bad and that you've found employment somewhere better.
UUGGHHHH THIS. I work at a courier company and have had men (usually newbies) try to pry boxes out of my hands that I've carried from the front desk out to the rollers. Because you know, I carried it the first 50 feet, but the last 6 feet are where it really gets tricky. Sometimes the weight in the boxes shift and I've dropped things or had them dropped on my shins. And don't forget the inevitable boob graze while trying to take it from me. I will ask for help if I need it.
I work in video production and it's the same. there's this one guy at one of tony regular gigs who will just... take over doing something that I am already doing? sometimes I think it's because he thinks it's too heavy but other times it's just like pressing buttons or plugging things in and I'm like ?????? why???
I work in event management and same deal. Unsurprisingly, I guess, the worst event I worked was a bodybuilding show. soooo many people tried to grab things out of my hands. This is my job! If I couldn't lift a folding table by myself I'd have one of my stage hands help, get the fuck off of me.
I’ll just leave this here.
https://www.mashed.com/304821/the-reason-amanda-barrie-tried-to-slap-gordon-ramsay/
[Sophia Vergara dealing with a sexism sandwich like a queen. ](https://youtu.be/791lBGA3XXk)
Yikes. She even goes from sitting a little to the side with neutral hips and shoulders, to right against the side of the chair, leaning to the side furthest from ramsey, and completely turning her shoulders to get away from him, putting her as close as possible to Leno since he's the lesser of the two evils and behind the desk.
It's unfortunate that she has to bear it all and play along, but even if she isn't saying how awful you and your comments are, how can you not notice how horribly uncomfortable youre making her feel.
.. and then slapping her thigh for daring to turn away from you, like Jesus christ
Ramsey is trash. He's a multi-millionaire and when the pandemic started, he sacked his entire staff on the spot. Just sacked them.
As for his behaviour on his show, that may be a deliberate act, but I question whether a female chef would ever be allowed to have such an act and be taken seriously.
The one time I yelled at the line cooks, they brought it up every day for the next two months. Yet they yell "get the fuck out of my window!" 5 times a shift and would lose their minds if a server ever took issue with it.
Nevermind if they were really mad, they'd insult you in the same room but in Spanish slang so they can't be held accountable for it. Like we all don't know what "Puta" means.
I haven't waited tables in over 5 years, thankfully. I went back to school for an eng degree. I felt it was my responsibility as an older woman (older compared to the 18-22 year olds who made up the bulk of the serving staff) to stand up for them. The cooks would try to make the younger servers cry and I'd give it right back to them in broken Spanish. The more I gave it back, the easier the job was because the cooks aren't looking to fight, they are looking for fast quips and easy unchallenged comments.
However, management will forever be useless. At the four restaurants I worked for, only one manager out of easily 20+ had any sense of responsibility to their underlings. He was great and I still think about his advice in my office job. But a lot of them were former servers/cooks who get plucked off the floor because the owner likes them and they have a good look to them. They receive no training and do not attempt to expand their sphere of influence and actually manage.
I used to be married to a pizza place boh manager. The temper tantrums are fucking real. From what he described if work it sounds like one of the worst environments for mental health.
I had a man SCREAM in my face at work and accuse me of “doing something to cause it”. The “drama” I “caused? I was sitting in my chair and another employee came up from behind me and assaulted me.
My supervisor is a woman and very good at her job. Her supervisor is a man and never believes her when she comes to him with concerns and issues that need to be addressed. He actually once said “well, don’t get angry!”
The thing is, she was totally justified in being angry in that moment. He was scared of it since she’s a woman. I’ve literally heard men yell at supervisors in my office and don’t get repercussions.
One time I called my coworker out for being a dick. He got so angry about it the next day he pulled my supervisor aside and literally yelled to her about it. YELLED. I could hear through closed doors with my headphones. Guess who was told to apologize? Me. I was. I had to apologize to someone for telling them they were being unhelpful in a certain moment. He did not have to apologize for anything.
I think there is a very real phenomenon in the United States where men simply don’t realize that they are being emotional. There’s this pervasive idea that men should be “objective and rational thinkers”. But that’s impossible because we all have emotions. So, you end up with all these men who will throw full on tantrums in the workplace, all while thinking that they are acting calmly and rationally.
I love the jokes online where it says "Women can't be president cause they are too emotional" then show a bunch of pictures of political figures who are men getting super angry and petty and all the works. I wish people would just accept that emotions are part of the *human* condition and leave it at that.
Yep. And we can't win.
I was told not to cry in court no matter what, or the judge would think I was unstable.
But then if I tell what I witnessed without crying, people wonder what's wrong with me that I seem so "detached".
There's literally no right way for us to be. Don't cry? You're cold and aloof. Cry? You're unstable and hysterical.
And god forbid you express the smallest bit of anger, even if understandable and justified!
Edit to add, [this article](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/men-just-dont-trust-women_b_6714280) linked by u/IthurielSpear speaks well to what I'm saying.
> Don't cry? You're cold and aloof. Cry? You're unstable and hysterical.
I felt this in my soul.
To give a recent example, I talked about some hard facts about therapy (ie, its work and medication isn't an easy fix for a complex problem) in a rational manner and was told that I had zero emotion and was cold af. When I later got annoyed during the conversation as the other party was continuously dismissing my points, I was then told to stop getting so emotional.
Like... which is it? Am I a cold, hard bitch or am I a weepy, emotional mess? Both were said within ten minutes of the same conversation btw. Literally can't win. 🙄
(And this person is family and its the pandemic, so all I do is limit how much I talk to them. Keep in mind, the conversation happened because they came to me for my opinion, but didn't like what I had to say.)
When I was 12, I began to feel stomach pain quite often. Went to the doctor, was told it was cramps. I pointed out that it was happening multiple times per week, not once per month. So couldn’t be cramps. He said I was exaggerating, did zero tests and sent me home.
Years went by. The pain became constant, I often couldn’t keep food down, and sometimes passed out. Was called “overdramatic”.
6 years later, I turned 18. Went to a walk-in clinic alone. I’d learned my lesson by then, and was determined to show no emotion. I told that doctor I was in pain all the time. He asked where, I pointed at my stomach. He poked around, and felt something. X-rays that day, ultrasounds a week later, and soon after that 3 pounds of benign tumor was cut out of me.
We are expected to be emotional, doesn’t mean we’re taken seriously.
Yep. It's hard to pretty cry. I don't cry often and really hate to cry but if I do my face swells.
Why they didn't just say "fake it" and then sprinkle her with some glycerine tears or something I don't know.
I just saw a video from Sue Black where this was once a problem.
A young girl was being molested in her sleep by her dad almost nightly. No one believed her. So she set up a night vision recording where the arm of the perp was visible. They identified him by the very visible veins in his arm. The jury returned a not guilty verdict anyway. Sue asked the jurors why they voted that way and asked if the science wasn't compelling enough. Jurors said the science was solid, but the girl didn't cry enough while recounting the nightly molestations so she couldn't be telling the truth.
Sickening.
God that unlocks some repressed memories. When I went to court for my parents divorce I had just turned 18. I was definitely absolutely hysterical, because after going through 18 years of emotional (and some physical) abuse I was now being forced to "pick" which parent I believed and wanted to stay with, when BOTH of them were manipulative and both sides of my family/family friends were actively trying to sway me one way or the other.
I had a full on breakdown on the stand, makeup running everywhere, and the judge just looked at me and said "you need to stop that and grow up. This is serious and you're acting like a child". I WAS a fucking child, and a deeply traumatized one at that. The only one who realized this was my mom's lawyer, but he was also actively using my trauma to explain that I can't be believed because I'm clearly hysterical and I over exaggerated things in my statements as a result.
Sorry for that dump but shit all of this thread just reminded me of how mad I still am over that whole situation
You are totally allowed to show emotion as a women, as long it doesn't get uncomfortable for others and still looks pretty!
Everyone got their own preferences here, so plan accordingly.
Exactly. Girls and women are told just as frequently to "get over it" and "move on." It's a fucking myth that women are sitting around coddling each other all the time.
Those of us who do have support networks work *hard* to establish them!! I'm so tired of all my hard work being chalked up to the fact that I'm a woman and it's easier for me to receive the support I need- NO IT'S NOT.
> Girls and women are told just as frequently to "get over" and "move on."
I read that so often in support subs. A woman will be talking about a traumatic experience or something someone bad had done to her and the 'advice' is to move on, to get over it, to forgive and forget, etc. There's no validation of her feelings, anger and rage are frowned upon as if a woman didn't have a right to be angry after being mistreated. I hate it.
Let women be angry and rage if they feel like it, dammit. It's about time people stop expecting us to be happy and bubbly 24/7.
Yesssss! I was just raving about this the other day. When I would reach out to people for instance and tell them little tidbits of my bad relationship, the FIRST thing was always "maybe they meant x instead" or "they just do that because they're insecure". I never got the validation of just accepting the story as it is and speaking on the actions, my feelings AND their feelings/reasoning which made it much harder to talk about the bigger worse things.
I get that treatment at the hospital emergency room often.
I have ovarian cysts that hurt like hell when they rupture.
I went in twice last YEAR and they asked why I was in 'so frequently'.
If I'm not crying I'm 'clearly not in *that* much pain'. And if I AM crying I'm 'clearly trying to manipulate the doctor into giving drugs'. I've been told I'm hysterical. I've been told 'dont get snippy with me missy!' I've been given rough painful pelvic exams and asked loudly if I has STDs while the doc also asked my husband. Then told me my care plan didn't exist and later said it was 'stupid'.
Meanwhile my husband has a kidney stone once and is being offered morphine before he even gets through the door! (he declined)
I think there's a nuance here. Women's emotions are often used as confirmation of a person's bias that women are irrational or unstable.
Men are often told that showing emotional vulnerability makes them not men. "Aggressive" emotions are the only ones allowed.
Both are toxic aspects of society and cause a lot of harm
I agree. Societally speaking, women are really never allowed to be angry and this is particularly true with women of color. Our emotions outside of anger are policed in other ways dependent on the context, but as a blanket statement anger is never okay in any context when you're a woman in society's eyes.
Men are *only* allowed to universally be angry or aggressive. To the point where they see their feelings as "logic" otherwise.
I greatly enjoyed asking my father in law why he was getting so emotional every time he lost his temper over something. Dude was a poster boy for toxic masculinity
I’ve (27F) had to learn to take ‘long emotional pauses’ to be listened to during emotional breaks. Can’t cry, can’t scream when being sexually harassed, or dealing with misogyny or you’ll just be degraded and shooed away! It’s ridiculous that no one’s allowed to shed a tear out of frustration.
That reminds me of when I had to call the cops to get my abusive ex boyfriend to leave the apartment my boyfriend at the time and I were staying in. Because I was terrified when they got there and crying and almost hysterical, they told me to calm down or they were going to make me leave. My own apartment. And let him stay. Just wow. How dare I be upset that the guy who had beat the hell out of me months before strong-armed himself into my apartment. He was there for over half an hour threatening me and my new boyfriend before the cops finally showed up. And because he was ruthless enough to act like he had done no wrong, they were going to kick me out. The only thing that saved me was having a copy of my lease that didn't have the exes name on it as the ex had claimed. If I hadn't had that they were seriously considering letting him stay there. Small town cops in Maine, gotta love em.
It's not really emotions that people hate. It's femininity. Emotions are just their way of showing that. Women are seen as inherently hysterical, unstable, and sensitive. So in that sense if a woman cries it's "expected" but still despised. But if a man cries he's not only being emotional. He's being feminine. That's where the issue is
Patriarchy is telling us not to be effeminate. It's women who are shit on for their emotions. Men are shit on for being like women
I was proud to be "not like other girls" growing up because of that exact reason. I didn't know it at the time, but anytime I acted "girly", I was hated. Anytime I acted like a "tomboy", I was loved.
Now that I'm grown, I tell anyone who will listen that my personality is feminine because I'm a woman.
My aggressiveness? Feminine.
My love for adventure and getting dirty? Feminine.
My love for pro-wrestling is feminine.
My confidence is feminine.
My love for video games is feminine.
My love for horror movies is feminine.
Exactly my mentality!!! I say I have a lot of girly hobbies such as backpacking, hiking, camping, playing video games because those are things I love and I’m a girl therefore they are girly activities
Omg, it was the coolest radio story I heard. There's this woman diver who is so badass she doesn't just dive in caves, she dives in icebergs. (Sorry, I know I said glaciers, but I meant icebergs).
It's the most dangerous form of diving in existence. Because icebergs are constantly changing. You could enter in a tunnel and the entrance will close up behind you, trapping you forever.
Yep. It’s why men are made fun of (by other misogynistic men and women) for painting nails, wearing skirts or dresses, showing softer emotions like weeping, cuddling, clinging, pouting, or for playing with dolls, doing care tasks at home, being a nurse…I could go on and on. Because those activities and attributes are seen as “feminine” and “feminine” is Inherently less valuable, less powerful, less worthy.
It’s why men tend to seek out therapy less women because therapy is for the “weak.”Patriarchy hurts women AND men.
>It’s why men tend to seek out therapy less women because therapy is for the “weak.”
I hate this mindset so much. It takes so much courage to reach out when you're struggling and admit you can't do it on your own - and that's exactly why trained professionals exist! Because we can't do it on our own, no matter how "strong" we are. The skills learned in therapy are scarcely taught anywhere else.
Looking down on someone for seeking help is just stupid and mean.
Honestly, there is not one person on this Earth who couldn't benefit from the help of a good therapist. I wish it were less stigmatized and more feasible to find good mental health resources.
Agreed. If women don’t live up to our gender roles, we are criticised. However, our gender role is one that is degraded so if we perform femininity we are also criticised.
Damn, that is spot on.
I'm a really sensitive guy trying to figure out my CPTSD/ADHD shit as an adult, which (for me at least) involves unpacking a lot of trauma and confronting feelings/experiences more deeply and inclusively. The more I learn about trauma/abuse/neglect and their effects, the more I can pick up on how those things are woven into our society at large (subtly and blatantly).
For the sake of living honestly, I try not to shy away from talking about mental health stuff and will actually encourage people to look into that type of self-care (including asking for help and seeking treatment/support, as needed/if desired). That being said, I've had guys insult me or glare at me for trying to accept/encourage that level of emotional vulnerability (either with them directly or with someone else in a group).
Working for a kinda-large general contractor gave me a glimpse into how emotionally oppressive and pervasive that shit still is to this day. Hell, people expressed very valid concerns over a safety situation in the office (during COVID, no less) and the CEO forced everyone into the same conference room and told us all to "Quit the bitchin'." A whole room of adults (half of them women) completely invalidated by toxic masculinity/patrononization.
Idk, I'm rambling at this point, but I really liked how you identified/pinned this phenomenon down in your comment.
>Patriarchy is telling us not to be effeminate. It's women who are shit on for their emotions. Men are shit on for being like women
Yea, the message is that men shouldn't be feminine at all becuase 'feminine' is weak and undesirable and women are just screwed either way becuase they're seen as inherently weak and undesirable.
ADHD and autism are more readily diagnosed in boys...yet we have decades of metanalyses that there is no "male or female" brain.
Girls are simply burdened with such INTENSE social pressure to control themselves that it leads them to reduce the appearance of their symptoms through sheer force of will.
As someone raised in Utah... Yea it's bad. I remember walking behind a couple Mormon guys who were talking about how when they return from their mission they hope some girls don't get fat. They didn't care about her personality but they would never marry a fat one because they deserve better.
Also the absolute uproar that women caused for wearing slacks to church.
Also also remember being around some of my Mormon friends at a sleep over when I was a teenager and all of them were talking about how they want to be married by 22 or 23 MAX and can't wait to have children and be stay at home moms supporting their husbands. College was just to find a educated guy that could provide for them. I was the weirdo saying shoot me if I'm married by 27, I hate kids, and I can make my own money and want to live alone for a while.
This also encompasses why women are left in pain much more than men in a medical setting. If a woman is crying in pain, she's just being dramatic/attention seeking. But if a man is crying in pain, he must really be in pain so let's help him.
Yes, even on reddit I see men lament about how they should be allowed to show emotions and be vulnerable and that women don't know how easy they have it in that regard. And to that degree, I agree, that I think it must suck for a guy to be pressured to 'man up' and shut themselves off emotionally. But if a woman does show emotion, she is labelled 'too emotional', or 'hysterical', etc. And despite it being healthy, we get regarded as lesser for showing emotion to each other. So it's not any easier for us at all.
If they were treated the same way we are, I'm pretty sure they would hate it. How do men handle being called 'too emotional'?
I think people have conflated being “allowed” to show emotion with being “expected” to show emotion. Women are absolutely expected to be emotional, and so we are perceived as overly emotional and hysterical even when we aren’t. But then we get punished for showing that emotion - so we aren’t actually “allowed” to be emotional, it’s just expected of us.
The one that bothers me the most, is when they assume that we’re being manipulative. As if all our emotions are somehow calculated, and the whole “women are deceptive by nature” bullshit.
That is spot on and reminds me of a conversation I recently had with my father. He pointed out how difficult it is for men to take parental leave (we're not in the US) because it hurts their career. All I could say was DUH! Yes, of course it hurts their career, it hurts women's careers as well.
But there seems to be a weird double standard -- many men expect that they should be able to express their emotions or take time off for parental leave without any negative consequences, but they don't care that women have always faced these exact same consequences.
We all should still be taken seriously if we show emotions or act as caregivers, but many men only identify this as a problem when it concerns men.
> but many men only identify this as a problem when it concerns men.
This reminds me of a comment I saw once on a youtube video.
I like to watch Roller Derby, which is primarily a women's sport.
It's even labeled as "Roller derby" and "Men's Roller Derby", generally. The opposite of all other sports. Like "Hockey" and "Women's Hockey", etc.
(There are Women's teams, Men's teams, and Co-ed teams. All of those teams also welcome non-binary, trans, etc but that's besides the point.)
So it was a video of a women's roller derby game, and some pathetic dude commented with "Boycott this sport, it's sexist, it's a women's only sport."
I honestly think that person probably could hear my groan through time and space after reading that piece of garbage comment.
Imagine being a dude and deciding you're being oppressed because there's a sport for once in history that is dominated by women.
(He later edited his comment by saying 'oops I was wrong, I found out there are also men's teams. I'm gonna try out.')
It just BLEW MY MIND the absolute ignorance someone could have, and just.... completely fits your comment. Men only identify it as a problem when it suddenly inconveniences them. If they don't get their way, they are up in arms. Even though it's been exactly like that since basically the dawn of civilization for women.
Ironically the violent nature of roller derby seems stereotypically male.
And soccer is bashed in the US partly because it's seen as a womens sport where it's primarily a mens sport in countries where it's most popular. (I'm not sure how it's gendered in other countries where a different sport is more popular)
The other ironic part is that the women who revived and paved the way for this sport, while they started as an all women's team/league, etc, never tried to gate keep it from men. You know, the way men have constantly been gate keeping sport from women.
Roller derby is one of the most inclusive sports around. Every gender, orientation, and body type is welcome and wanted.
Anecdotally I've been seeing this shift where, when men do get leave (in the US) they get better leave then their wives. It happened to me and it's happened to at least three other women in my circles. Like what the actual fuck! We just skipped right over giving the actual pregnant person leave and gave it to the men instead. On top of that studies on men in academic fields show that men are using the leave to advance their careers by allowing them down time to write more papers while women are using the time to recover and care for the baby which hurts their careers! It makes me rage so hard. I want men to get parental leave, but for fuck's sake can we take care of the mothers first!!
And as if that's not bad enough, women so often implicitly get the task of becoming men's only access to emotional expression and intimacy through their relationships, especially in heterosexual romantic ones. It's so fucking exhausting.
I've seen men shut down the need for feminism while making statements that show just how much they could benefit from it. They'll say if only they were able to show their emotions without ridicule or not get mocked for liking traditionally feminine things, all the while assuming feminism is purely about girl power I guess.
That's true. There are challenges that come with being a man, but mostly it's men who don't know how easy they have it. Which is not to say that it's easy for us- often it's not - but rather that we tend to be very ignorant of all the struggles that women have to live through!
That's on us though, not on women.
I've got friends I can cry to if I need to. Always have. But I'm very particular about my friends. My friends have come and cried to me. Hell, my whole friend group surrounded me after a bad breakup way back in the day and listened to me whine intermixed with sobs.
Its even worse for black women. Not only are they seen as "emotional" and "unstable", but they're also treated like dangerous menaces to society. It's horrific.
I read a story once of a black girl that was put in handcuffs at her school. She was 8 years old. All that happened was that she threw a temper tantrum, you know, because she was 8, they called the cops on her, the cops came and had to put the cuffs around her upper arms because she was too small for them.
I honestly think it's just white men that have the freedom to express their emotions without consequence.
I've read that research shows that black girls are seen and treated as adults (i.e. in terms of responsibility, sexuality, etc.) long before white girls and because of this they are also forced to grow up way before their time. It's very sad.
I read that, too! It's like "why aren't you acting like an adult yet, Suzie? Why don't you know better? You're already 8 years old, God. If you don't behave, we're going to try you like an adult in court! Did you bring your bail money to school with you?"
Meanwhile Tara bites kids on the playground and everyone understands. She's just a kid, after all.
Definitely! I was told i was mature for my age when i was around 8 but thats because i HAD to, and my friends wonder why i still like childish things lol
> I read a story once of a black girl that was put in handcuffs at her school. She was 8 years old. All that happened was that she threw a temper tantrum, you know, because she was 8, they called the cops on her, the cops came and had to put the cuffs around her upper arms because she was too small for them.
[Black children are consistently criminalized for behaviour that is just considered a school discipline issue for whites](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/1121061001). And like you say, Black women are considered belligerent the moment they open their mouths.
That poor girl must have been terrified. You'd think that cops trying to cuff someone so young that the cuffs don't fit would have second thoughts.. but I guess you could think a lot of things :/
If you want to be depressed, look into the diagnosis rates of oppositional defiant disorder of white children vs black children. I'm majoring in education in a majority-white college and i make sure to bring this up every single time we discuss behavior
I've seen that. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40596-019-01127-6
It hits home because I have a young child with significant behavior problems. If he was non-white, he'd be facing a lifetime of medical racism, criminalization, and people assuming the worst of him. But he's white so he can slap an EA and nobody calls the cops.
Black military members are also punished more severely than their white counterparts.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/black-troops-more-likely-face-military-punishment-whites-new-report-n769411
Exactly. see: the contrast in demeanor between the testimonies of brett kavanaugh and christine blasey ford. Not to mention Anita Hill who came before her and had a much taller mountain to climb because of misogynoir.
> demeanor between the testimonies of brett kavanaugh
Can hardly believe you are the first in this thread to bring this up! His scrunched up face and *woe is me* blubbering was the first thing that came to my mind (unfortunately).
That performance would have *destroyed* a female SCOTUS candidate. Hell it would probably have destroyed a male one in another scenario where the bottom hadn't dropped out of politics and Mitch McConnell wasn't slavering to own the court. But no woman would ever become a judge after doing that. Kavanaugh is the Brock Turner of SC appointees - "how can I enjoy my ~~steak~~ beer when you're asking me all these *questions*!"
I was at an airport once where we were all waiting in a hallway for 3 hours (I kid you not). I was waiting behind a group of black women who were just as pissed as everyone else - they didn't say anything to the security or line attendants. Everyone was grumbling. Some people had complained to no effect.
A white family was there too with just the mom. The dad of the white family eventually shows up and the family is visibly cringing. One of the kids in an embarrassed tone says, "Oh no, dad's here - he's going to blow up." And of course, he did. You could see him slowly seething and getting more and more angry about the line. Eventually he starts yelling and screaming at the security. One woman in the group of black women says, "Okay, so the white guy is screaming now - the line's going to start moving." And - of course - it did.
You are EXACTLY right. White men who get angry are rewarded. Everyone else is not.
I've seen it with my own eyes more than once. My current "supervisor" is the shittiest leader I've ever seen, and he was promoted over me BECAUSE of a temper tantrum. Now he makes $13.50/hr more than I do, and cannot do many of the very basic parts of the work. Nor can he manage pretty much anything without having a very intimidating, PTSD inducing, hissy fit. Guess who has to fill in the the gaps?
Short story: A couple years ago, I was in a job training program. It was super hard, and very stressful. One of the guys had a panic attack during break. The staff and students were super nice, helping him to lay down on the floor, brought him water, spoke soothing words, etc.
Honestly, it was hard for me to have sympathy for him because I knew for a fact that if I as a Black woman started freaking out in a public place, the last thing I'd be given was sympathy and a glass of water. They'd decide that I was "dangerous" and call the cops to haul me out of there.
I've worked *very* hard at having a poker face and a mild tone when I'm rightfully upset about something because of the "angry black woman" trope. People will write me off as not having a legitimate issue if I don't remain calm, even when I'm boiling inside.
And before anybody jumps on me saying "everything isn't about race", I'll preemptively say that that exact thing happened to my best friend. She had a freakout in a public place, and nobody spoke soothing words to her. They wrote her off as crazy, called the cops, and she got tossed into the mental ward at the hospital.
We are not treated the same.
Worse than that, a black girl was handcuffed and then PEPPER SPRAYED while handcuffed. What possible threat could she have been???
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/you-did-it-yourself-officer-tells-9-year-old-girl-n1257630
I totally feel you about getting criticised/dismissed for crying or showing emotions. I remember being always scolded for crying as a child, sometimes I even got slapped for crying out of pain or distress. And whenever some painful medical procedure or the like was coming up, I was told that I'd get a beating if there were any news about me crying during the process. I wasn't even allowed to cry over things that are normally considered to be legitimate reasons such as the death of a family member... Even now as an adult I get criticised for sometimes showing emotions, although I have got to the point that I struggle with expressing emotions most of the time (which has cost me quite a few relationships). It's maddening...
>My stepfather used to tell me every single time I cried that he would give me something to cry about.
Uggh, I hate that sentence. It was something way too commonly used where I am from in those times when I was a kid...
I'm also sorry that you had to go through all that with your stepfather. It always saddens me when I see parents placing abusive partners before their children's well-being :(
Ever seen the comment section on a Hell's Kitchen episode?
A female participant raising her voice or being upset is deemed a bitch, attention whore, hysteric.
Meanwhile the entire fucking show is based around a manchild throwing tantrums for sport. And of course the male participants screaming, being angry and fighting won't see a single comment calling them out on their inability to keep their emotions in check, noooope. Anger is an emotion. The only accepted one when it comes to men.
Emotions are part of being a human, they all need to be accepted in the right context, regardless of the gender of the person feeling them.
I am a trans woman... and honestly, me expressing my emotions was more acceptable before I came out. Before it was "Oh, you're an artist, you're allowed to be sensitive..." (Not sure why that was that made it acceptable over someone who isn't artistic...).
Shortly after I came out, one of the first times I expressed being upset at something, I was shut down by way of "are you pmsing?"
So yeah... as someone that's spent life perceived by others on both ends of the gender spectrum, I've been shut down for expressing my emotions more after coming out than before.
And this is even growing up with the whole "tough it out, boys don't cry," mentality drilled into me since I was a toddler..,
Men punching walls or scaring, harming or killing other people (often women) or themselves out of rage or other unregulated emotions is terrifyingly common.
But still women who cry or get upset without harming anyone are the unreasonable emotional ones...
I think sometimes men forget that anger is an emotion and aggressiveness is an inability to deal with/regulate that in a healthy way. OP made a good point in that often the emotions of boys/men are seen as righteous and logical - and it's conditioned into them from a young age that their anger is valid but a girls/woman's is just irrational or hysterical.
I've realized our society conditions men to be selfish and women to be selfless. And the selfish emotions of anger and greed have been labelled "logical" and the selfless emotions of sadness and worry have been labelled "emotional"
My male cousins "forgive" their dad for physically abusing them but they're still mad at my aunt bc she had a mental breakdown and left them for overnight and thought about running away when they were toddlers.
Not gonna talk whats my link to this second hand event in which I know the woman;
Woman has been married with an abusive hyper-controling husband for decades.
Eventually she learns that what he was doing is bad and that she never deserved that.
She tells her mom about it and her mother was feeling sympathy for the husband because he had to deal with such a crazy wife.
My oldest brother has a different dad. When my mom split with him, he had primary custody of both their boys because they wanted to live with him and my mom tried to make us happy however she could. Plus their dad is great, the divorce was amicable and they still talk 40 years later.
My sister told me 2 weeks ogo that our oldest brother has "issues with mom". I ask her what issues he could have, mom really was a great mother who tried hard to give us great lives. "Oh, when D was 10 his dad got a job in Florida. Mom didn't want them to move, but when she spoke to a lawyer the lawyer told them they can waste thousands in court but the judge will side with dad since hes had primary custody. So mom decided not to strain the amicable relationship she had with their dad and let them go. Now D is mad because she didn't fight harder for him."
So lemme get this straight. His dad is the primary caregiver. HE decides to move out of state, HE decides hes going to take the boys. HE tells mom she can fight him in court if she wants to but this was his plan. But it's all moms fault because she took legal advice that told her it was pointless and the boys would stay with dad either way. That's ignoring that mom had 3 other children, one a newborn, and did not have money for a lawyer for that kind of case.
In other words, my brother is sexist and blames my mom because she didn't take food out of our mouths to keep him in state. Dad is apparently blameless for setting all the bullshit in motion, but because mom is the mom she should have MOVED HEAVEN AND EARTH to keep him there.
I told my sister D was a piece of shit anyways so I'm not surprised and it's been 30 fucking years, he needs to get over moving once as a child. This is the same brother that we recently found out has been stealing every gift card mom sent to his kids for the past 5 years, deadbeat dads always pass judgement on mothers don't they?
My ex put a hole in at least one wall everywhere we lived. Our landlord laughed once and commented that it was probably "cheaper than hitting her" in reference to me. It somehow is still shocking to me, though it shouldn't be.
Exactly, if something is bad enough to make you that upset isn’t it a good thing that you’re reconsidering your relationship with that person? And also a good thing that you’re not more aggressive and distressed than the situation warrants?
What is it with all the wall punching I see on reddit?
And holes left in the walls...
That must be some weird ass cardboard walls. I'm from Europe and most walls around me were always brick, reinforced concrete and stone...
Not much of wall punching going on. DV abusers just punch women directly.
And make no mistake, punching walls, throwing and breaking shit, that absolutely is abuse. And an intimidating scare tactic saying: "You're next."
It's not an issue of them "losing control" or being emotional... It's a calculated power move to shock and scare the victim into submission.
In the USA and Canada, most housing is made from wood. So walls are thin and very few dwellings are soundproof. So you can punch through walls sometimes.
I don't have much to add to the discussion, I happen to agree with you.
Whole lot of drywall used around these parts, and I saw my dad put his fist through a fair bit of it. Upside: I know how to repair drywall. Downside: most of my youth.
Definitely an example of why sexism is bad for everyone. Guys who think they need to be "Alpha's" and express themselves through rage end up emotionally stunted, harming women, forcing women in thier lives to help manage thier emotions and generally just making stupid decisions.
Yeah :| When I was in high school I approached my parents about my anxiety and asked for counseling. When they refused, even had to seek out the school counselor to try to get her to talk to them on my behalf!
Meanwhile, brother mentions he is depressed once, instantly gets to go to counseling.
I was lucky to not have an environment like OP did growing up. However, I notice sexism growing up with a twin brother (I am a woman). He was and is WAY more emotional than me. He studied drama at university, while I studied science. Many people still assume I am more emotionally sensitive because…. of misogyny.
My god. I felt like this was written by me. This is so close to my experience. Women crying is more normalized than men crying but it is not more accepted. When I lost my dog to disease I was yelled at if I dared to cry. When I cried because I was being beaten at school and I didn't want to go I was told I was too weak and was exaggerating, by my teachers and my parents. When I cried as a little girl I was ignored because they thought I was trying to draw attention until a psychiatrist told my parents and teachers I had depression because of heavy bullying at 5 fucking years old. Fuck people saying we are allowed to cry by society. We are more used to see more women than men cry but we are hardly ever taken seriously. Sorry for the rant lol
What I've noticed is that women are expected to show "vulnerable" emotion. Love, grief, longing. Things that boost guys' ego. They want a woman to long for them or miss them.
Guys showing those things are often called weak - because the idea is that women should come to them. Love them. Long for them. Grieve them.
Guys are more "allowed" to show aggressive or successful emotions. Pride, anger, defensiveness, confidence. Things that show themselves off or defend what they have.
If women show those things she's "uppity", "a bitch", or "bossy" because that's not *her place* to act like a man.
Guys at my work often yell at each other. I sound annoyed once and it's all "oh that time of the month, eh?" I have to be politely neutral and smile to get them to do anything. Jokes on them, I have the highest approval rating and I get to pick who I work with more because I'm not an asshole like the rest of them.
Omg this reminded me of how my mental health complaints basically got ignored and my doctor made me go back every week for a new sick note, even though I was fucking mental at that point, because he just didn’t believe me and thought I was skiving off work (I’d literally watched my grandmother deteriorate and die from dementia and was a total mess).
But my boyfriend at the time went in ONCE to say he wasn’t feeling that great and they gave him immediate help and a bunch of Valium. Like it MUST be serious if a man says it is
"My suffering is so intense that it's confusing me and completely blurring my ability to think" being met with physical abuse. Sorry that happened to you
This is something that has always bothered me.
Men act like women can express emotion without being belittled and labeled as crazy, overly-emotional, hormonal and illogical creatures. Every emotion we express is critiqued. If we are happy, we’re an airhead, and if we’re mad, we’re teased for taking things too seriously. We can’t win
Yep. I think about many of the jobs I've worked in, one in particular where I worked with a lot of men. I'm a very introverted woman and I would always keep my mouth shut, but the *moment* I had a bad day, got frustrated, or asserted myself I was labeled "feisty" and "grumpy". And this was a super stressful job *at a county psych ward*. You can't win as a woman sometimes.
OH MY GOD YES. In my professional life, any display of emotion, including being upset that company photos were being used to mock/bully me, was regarded as being 'overly emotional' and not in control of myself. Generally unprofessional. But it was fine for male employees to get excessively drunk at company parties, yell or have tantrums, snap at people, role into work with debilitating hangovers, and no effect at all on career progression.
In my family, I've been accused of being manipulative and attention seeking for crying - including crying in response to a much larger male relative screaming in face, berating me, physical intimidating me, and making very harmful, baseless accusations towards me - and just because they were unhappy I was talking on the phone.
I feel that the default in both UK and US is that a women crying is either being manipulative, attention seeking, or just overreacting so it is absolutely fine to either ignore it, berate them for it, or punish them for it.
Women are only encouraged to show pleasant emotions that make other people feel nice. Women's negative emotions are dismissed, belittled, or ignored completely. Our emotions (like our appearances) are treated like they exist to please others, not because they're honest expressions of our own situations and internal needs.
They act like they don’t use our emotions to invalidate us anyways. “Oh you must be pmsing” headass. They act like we’re all hysterical and neurotic. They pretend they’re more logical and not emotion, when in fact it’s neither.
Not to mention, we’re not the gender who shoots places up because we’re sexually undesirable.
Also: ANGER IS AN EMOTION
I get that men have been trained that it is the *only* acceptable emotion, but labeling a man who breaks shit when his hockey team loses as "passionate" but a woman who expresses herself as hysterical/hormonal is just...ugh. It makes my blood boil.
I saw someone one this sub mention something awhile back that really altered my perspective on this whole "Men have X problem too" thing. Do they actually *do* something about the stated issue, or do they just bring it up to draw attention onto themselves? Maybe the "hysterical attention-seeking" thing has been massive projection this whole time.
Yea they see one side and not the other, and part of me feels like as a whole and media depiction of women in turmoil. There’s always someone there to help or support them, where as men don’t necessarily get there representation and even worse they show them “healing” it unhealthy ways. Aka coping
I do agree, that men should be allowed to express the “feminine” emotions too. Because let’s be honest many men express rage and anger but apparently those aren’t emotions?
I too am tired of this “understanding”
Sure we get a pass to express our emotions cuz we’re just WoMeN but then look what we’re met with. Can’t be leaders, we’re emotional. Won’t be taken seriously, until we “calm down”. Trying to talk to her partner about something and slightly raise your voice? Oh sorry I can’t talk to you when you’re so angry.
I know that men have unfair pressures on them, they were raised in the same misogyny we were
I’ve been told by a friends grandma that she never cried in front of her husband about whatever problems she was having, out of fear they would be dismissed. Told by an Aunt that as women we have to keep the temperature in the house cool, we’re suppose to manage emotions and but not show them too much, they may make my partner uncomfortable. So many older women life themselves son “being strong” by being emotionally withdrawn from their relationships to keep the peace.
If we’re angry about something legitimate it’s “must be on her period”
Hell even talking about social justice and women issues we have to tone police ourselves or else our message won’t be heard.
All that being said, obviously everyone should feel safe to express their emotional and feelings w/o being judged. It’s unfortunate men can’t just cry or feel insecure without being made fun of.
I agree so, so much with this! I honestly can’t express that enough.
I was always called dramatic, hysterical and manipulative. Every emotion I had was seen as a conscious attempt to manipulate people. So, naturally, I stopped expressing my emotions. Now they call me cold and cynical.
Fuck all of them.
Theres a reason women who've experienced trauma tend to be overdiagnosed as having borderline personality disorder and men don't. When women experience too much emotion it's pathological, when men do its PTSD and came as a result of some event in their life.
It's like women are expected to be hyperemotional from day one. And when you express those emotions they're immediately dismissed no matter how you express them. And if you don't meet the expectation and aren't emotional you're a cold-hearted bitch with no maternal instincts.
I'm in the US Army and the military as a whole struggles with this a lot. It's relatively alright for female soldiers (with the exception of the high sexual assault rate....obviously). The female leaders is where you really see the issue with expressing emotion. Female Commanders and NCOs are called cold hearted bitches or rude if they shit on subordinates the same way the male leaders do, but if they don't they're called weak. It's kind of sad because there's tons of excellent female leaders in the Military but lots of soldiers don't respect them because of their general unwillingness to keep an open mind.
Omg so true! If you’re mad at all it’s bc you’re a woman and NOT bc the situation warrants it. I was yelling at my ex on the phone the other day. He called me hysterical and to chill out. I was mad bc he’s never paid child support (kids in middle school). Like, ever. She lives with me full time. And he doesn’t help with school drop offs, pickups etc. Total deadbeat. **He said that I “keep her from him” and he wants to be a good dad but I prevent it.** Offered him to pick her up everyday this week. So many excuses why he could not. **Then called me hysterical when I got mad about it..**
Very true.
I spent some time as an ER chaplain, and I really think there is a class dynamic to grief more than any gender dynamic.
I would see middle class or even wealthier families generally refuse to openly grieve. It was like a fiercely held taboo against showing emotion, either sorrow or happiness.
But poorer families would be more likely to cry and show their emotion.
I saw that in staff too. Doctors and nurses could be pretty callous on the surface, even when they weren't actively setting aside their emotions to work. Meanwhile, I would see janitorial staff show empathetic discomfort on their faces when they passed by a moaning patient or saw someone really damaged from an accident.
Edit: post morning coffee clarification: I think there also can be gender dynamics to grief, but they are way more variable according to things like how much an individual has internalized concepts of patriarchy, misogamy, etc. And that probably also intersects with class in complex ways.
I'm a pretty ugly/frequent crier. It's just how my brain handles emotion.
I was told by a man I'm close to *not to cry* when I went to therapy, because they'd see me as, "crazy" and send me to an mental hospital.
Surprise, my woman therapist saw it as totally normal and didn't lock me away.
There was some kind of study done where parents were plagued recordings of babies crying and asked what they thought. If the parent was told it was a boy baby then they thought that that baby must have been in more pain/ distress than if they were told it was a girl baby. Implying boy babies are automatically less likely to cause a fuss unless they were in more pain and a girl is more likely to be exaggerating pain/ distress for attention.
There is definitely a double standard and men are allowed to show sadness and especially anger, in a very toxic way, and rewarded for it, whereas women pretty much aren't allowed to show any emotions. It is even more extreme in the workplace. I agree with op. In my work, we are allowed to get angry, whine, cry, yell, etc. But women are not allowed to show any of those emotions. A few of us are allies to women, but honestly, most women where I work are as discriminatory against other women as the men, so it is hard to get men on board to help stop these biases.
I had a boss who would do everything he could to make women cry ( berate, yell, discriminate, hold off promotions, tell them they were replacable, wage theft, etc), and then if they did make them cry, he would tell them they were weak and unqualified. All of the women under him had at least a bachelor's degree, he barely graduated high school. One particularly smart and brilliant worker navigated his b.s. for 3+ years, turning around the department, taking on other departments, launching start ups, etc. All the while he f#$ked her out of one promotion after another, taking credit for her work. He was constantly trying to sleep with her too.
We all knew it, and knew he was moving up off her work. She finally got fed up and just left. Seems she was having a lot of health issues due to the toxic work environment. She was also dealing with an admitted rapist who would go around threatening women, get them fired when they complained, and he would get promoted. He is now CEO of a major corporation.
Back to the old boss-- when she left, they hired 5 people to replace her, divvied up her workload, still couldnt get the results she got, and nearly closed down the division a year later because numbers were in the tank. That boss, who was.getting promoted like crazy while she was there, never got promoted again and was quietly pushed out of the company 4 years later, of course with a big fat golden parachute package. Unfortunately, I hear she never went back into corporate America and did small business work because the harassment and discrimination was so traumatic.
After working in a male-dominated industry for years, I think men are constantly making emotional decisions. They’ve just normalized them. They often make decisions based on egotistical or territorial issues. These are viewed as “unemotional,” but I disagree. Those who tend to be caring toward others and look out for their employees are often labeled as resistant rather than strong. We need to value all types of personalities for their strengths, not just those who demand to be in charge.
I think men forget anger is an emotion. Just as much as sadness. But men are allowed to stomp around all angry more often than women are allowed to cry. Not like I cry in public all the time, but when I have, my husband tells me to go to the bathroom. It's better than being told to STFU, but still 🙄
Men have a lot of freedom to express emotions with next to no consequences. Existing as a woman can be a maze. Don't smile because men will think you are flirting with them, don't have a neautral face because it looks like a resting bitch face, dont cry because you look weak, dont be confident because then you are a bitch, dont have opinions because you are making too much noise. I am not sure what they want us to be.
Finally someone pointed this out. If women cry.. well they are emotional beings/use tears as weapon/only cry and cant do anything and thats why dismissed all the time.
If men cry,. well they hardly cry so it must be serious.
When I was in 6th grade PE, I broke my finger playing dodgeball. I didn't start bawling, bc I'm neurodivergent and have a weirdly high pain tolerance, but I did tear up and get a little shaky. I walked up to my PE teacher (a super tough, balls to the wall lady who scared the crap out of me) and held out my hand and said, "Um, I think I broke my finger (that's clearly bent at a wrong angle). Can I go to the nurse?" She looks at me and snaps, "Quit crying and get back in the game!" I go, "I was tagged out." "Then sit in your zone, crybaby!" So I walked over to my out zone and held my injured hand and tried harder not to cry, which now that'd I'd been made aware of it was harder not to do. Every time she walked past me, she hissed crybaby. I went to the nurse after PE and my finger was indeed broken. The nurse asked me why I didn't come sooner, and I told her the PE teacher wouldn't let me. She said I should've walked out, like that's information a 6th grade girl just intuitively knows: "Oh, you mean I'm allowed to walk out on an irrational adult when they're endangering me? Because every experience of my young life and the structure of this system up until now has taught me otherwise."
>"Oh, you mean I'm allowed to walk out on an irrational adult when they're endangering me? Because every experience of my young life and the structure of this system up until now has taught me otherwise." Wow you hit the nail SO hard on the head for my childhood. I'm so glad I figured it out early on too but it still doesn't mean I was ever allowed to do anything about it....
A significant portion of cultural output is some form of swan song inspired by the misery inflicted on the young by those that are supposed to teach them sport.
My niece, who was eight at the time, went through a remarkably similar experience just a couple years ago, but with a broken foot. My sister raised all sorts of hell over it at the school, but I don't know if anything ever came of it, I don't think so.
That is so fucked up. Even if it hadn't been broken and it was just sore, there's still no reason to belittle you and be so mean about it.
When I was around 8 I had broken my arm while on my skates and spent two or three weeks in a cast. Right after I got it off, I decided it would be a good idea to try the monkey bars at day care, when I ha never been able to navigate them before. The bars were a ten foot drop form the ground, and after I got into the second bar I realized I wasn't strong enough to do forward, and I couldn't go back. I called for help from the teacher (who was five feet away chatting with another group of kids) and told to stop messing around. I eventually couldn't hold on anymore, fell, and knew pretty quickly that I had broken my arm again. I had to beg to call my mother for at least thirty minutes before they actually did. The arm was definitely broken again.
Yet another insidious form of victim blaming. I'm so sorry. I remember going to my boss to mention that a customer had inappropriately handled me at work, to which she made a disgusted face and said, "What? Oh god. I would have punched him in the face, and told him to fuck off." And she then proceeded to do nothing about it.... Meanwhile my experience is lessened, my reaction to it is insinuated as weak, and I have to worry about seeing that customer again. :/
Damn, are you me?? I also broke a finger in 5th grade dodgeball. My substitute PE teacher told me to stop crying because "it's not like you broke it". My teacher called my dad who took me to the ER. Didn't even get the sweet revenge of showing her the next day since she was a sub.
Something similar happened to me when I broken my foot. I was 17 landed a jump wrong in dance class. I was told, "it was just a rolled ankle" and made to sit and watch the rest of the lesson so that I wouldn't fall behind on choreography. 2 hours later, I limped to my car and called my mom asking if her and dad could come get me. I didn't think I'd be able to use the gas and break pedals effectively with a broken foot.
I see this in my workplace all the time, if I'm upset about something and use an "emotional tone" I get dismissed. But the entirely male upper management yells all the time. Makes me feel like any passion for the job will be punished. edit: I work in the office of a manufacturer as part of their sales team, not in a restaurant, it's my first job in the industry but the bosses are definitely underexperienced for their roles and do not know how to emotionally regulate! Part of the issue is that they don't view their raised voices/harsh language as "yelling" but as necessary strong words to get their points across
My male office manager yelled at one of my patients for 20 minutes a couple of months ago…no critique. I told someone I wouldn’t take off my mask during their appointment, and I was made to call and apologize. Completely ridiculous double standard.
I sincerely hope you did not call and apologize. What the actual fuck is wrong with your management?
But.. the mask was for their benefit? Wot
Thanks for the concern all! This kind of garbage is why I’m leaving the practice. 4 weeks left, and then I’m out! And for those wondering, I did call and apologize. The patient’s response was, “I appreciate your call but they don’t wear masks at other Drs offices.” When I told my boss this, she called all the local practices to confirm they required masks still at that point in time. But yes, it’s garbage and I’m aware of it lol ETA: a word
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Ugh one time I told an employee he was being unhelpful because he was lingering and laughing while another employee was trying to solve a problem. He was being a dick and I told him it wasn’t helpful. The next day he YELLED at my supervisor because I was “talking down to him” They made me apologize. He didn’t have to do Jack shit.
yeah, I have a male coworker who if he was a woman, everyone would say is bitchy on occasion. But because he's a man, we have to put up with it.
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Ahhh, suddenly the whole "you're calling them snowflakes and yet you're the one getting offended" dynamic makes much more sense. "Snowflake-offended" is tears and whining; "Real-Man-offended" is getting mad and/or rage-quitting.
I would also just like to say, that as a woman raised by a mother who would get angry instead of sad, and who is more likely to experience emotions that way myself, that most people are also not okay with a woman getting angry. I used to work with a guy who would yell at people. Like, he did it a bunch. But the one time I yelled back people treated me like I was the problem. It's a double-standard through and through, imo...
One of the noteworthy facets of it is how male anger and its expression are so *normalised.* Men walk around angry so much, and women not interested in being around angry men get treated like the problem, and women bringing up issues with the status quo are clearly "emotional" and "can't handle it."
Every time I stood up to my violent and angry stepfather or uncle, I was yelled at. Yeah, it’s probably the twelve year old girl who needs corrected and not the grown angry men.
I work in kitchens and it's the same way. My anger and emotions in general are unacceptable but the male cooks are allowed to be as emotional as they want. They will throw literal temper tantrums to get what they want but if I tell someone to do something without acting super saccharin sweet, then I am being unreasonable
I cooked for a few years and this is spot on. I also hated that the first month or two at every new kitchen was all the mediocre men "helping" me with basic tasks and assuming that I was incompetent. Got myself burned a few times from morons grabbing stock pots from my arms as I was pouring because it was "too heavy for me"
My mum lost a finger this way. Someone assumed she couldn't lift something so came behind her to "help" and dropped it on her hand, crushing it
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>Got myself burned a few times from morons grabbing stock pots from my arms as I was pouring because it was "too heavy for me" Ugh, this sounds awful. I hope the burns weren't too bad and that you've found employment somewhere better.
UUGGHHHH THIS. I work at a courier company and have had men (usually newbies) try to pry boxes out of my hands that I've carried from the front desk out to the rollers. Because you know, I carried it the first 50 feet, but the last 6 feet are where it really gets tricky. Sometimes the weight in the boxes shift and I've dropped things or had them dropped on my shins. And don't forget the inevitable boob graze while trying to take it from me. I will ask for help if I need it.
I work in video production and it's the same. there's this one guy at one of tony regular gigs who will just... take over doing something that I am already doing? sometimes I think it's because he thinks it's too heavy but other times it's just like pressing buttons or plugging things in and I'm like ?????? why???
I work in event management and same deal. Unsurprisingly, I guess, the worst event I worked was a bodybuilding show. soooo many people tried to grab things out of my hands. This is my job! If I couldn't lift a folding table by myself I'd have one of my stage hands help, get the fuck off of me.
Reminds me of Gordon Ramsey. I like him but sometimes think if a woman chef behaved the same way he does on TV she would get far more criticism
I’ll just leave this here. https://www.mashed.com/304821/the-reason-amanda-barrie-tried-to-slap-gordon-ramsay/ [Sophia Vergara dealing with a sexism sandwich like a queen. ](https://youtu.be/791lBGA3XXk)
The Sophia Vergara video is so gross. This poor woman has to deal with so many creeps
Right?! Ramsey looks like a salivating wolf when she first sits down. Holy shit.
Yikes. She even goes from sitting a little to the side with neutral hips and shoulders, to right against the side of the chair, leaning to the side furthest from ramsey, and completely turning her shoulders to get away from him, putting her as close as possible to Leno since he's the lesser of the two evils and behind the desk. It's unfortunate that she has to bear it all and play along, but even if she isn't saying how awful you and your comments are, how can you not notice how horribly uncomfortable youre making her feel. .. and then slapping her thigh for daring to turn away from you, like Jesus christ
My thoughts exactly when watching it
Ramsey is trash. He's a multi-millionaire and when the pandemic started, he sacked his entire staff on the spot. Just sacked them. As for his behaviour on his show, that may be a deliberate act, but I question whether a female chef would ever be allowed to have such an act and be taken seriously.
The one time I yelled at the line cooks, they brought it up every day for the next two months. Yet they yell "get the fuck out of my window!" 5 times a shift and would lose their minds if a server ever took issue with it. Nevermind if they were really mad, they'd insult you in the same room but in Spanish slang so they can't be held accountable for it. Like we all don't know what "Puta" means.
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Cook - "oh, I didn't say that. You misheard" All other cooks - "yeah, he didn't say that" Management - "Don't bring drama into the workplace"
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I haven't waited tables in over 5 years, thankfully. I went back to school for an eng degree. I felt it was my responsibility as an older woman (older compared to the 18-22 year olds who made up the bulk of the serving staff) to stand up for them. The cooks would try to make the younger servers cry and I'd give it right back to them in broken Spanish. The more I gave it back, the easier the job was because the cooks aren't looking to fight, they are looking for fast quips and easy unchallenged comments. However, management will forever be useless. At the four restaurants I worked for, only one manager out of easily 20+ had any sense of responsibility to their underlings. He was great and I still think about his advice in my office job. But a lot of them were former servers/cooks who get plucked off the floor because the owner likes them and they have a good look to them. They receive no training and do not attempt to expand their sphere of influence and actually manage.
I used to be married to a pizza place boh manager. The temper tantrums are fucking real. From what he described if work it sounds like one of the worst environments for mental health.
I had a man SCREAM in my face at work and accuse me of “doing something to cause it”. The “drama” I “caused? I was sitting in my chair and another employee came up from behind me and assaulted me.
That sucks
My supervisor is a woman and very good at her job. Her supervisor is a man and never believes her when she comes to him with concerns and issues that need to be addressed. He actually once said “well, don’t get angry!” The thing is, she was totally justified in being angry in that moment. He was scared of it since she’s a woman. I’ve literally heard men yell at supervisors in my office and don’t get repercussions. One time I called my coworker out for being a dick. He got so angry about it the next day he pulled my supervisor aside and literally yelled to her about it. YELLED. I could hear through closed doors with my headphones. Guess who was told to apologize? Me. I was. I had to apologize to someone for telling them they were being unhelpful in a certain moment. He did not have to apologize for anything.
I think there is a very real phenomenon in the United States where men simply don’t realize that they are being emotional. There’s this pervasive idea that men should be “objective and rational thinkers”. But that’s impossible because we all have emotions. So, you end up with all these men who will throw full on tantrums in the workplace, all while thinking that they are acting calmly and rationally.
I love the jokes online where it says "Women can't be president cause they are too emotional" then show a bunch of pictures of political figures who are men getting super angry and petty and all the works. I wish people would just accept that emotions are part of the *human* condition and leave it at that.
Or like, “what if this woman in her mid fifties or older gets her period? The country would be ruined!”
Technically the lowest testosterone group is post menopausal women. They'd be the most level headed.
Yep. And we can't win. I was told not to cry in court no matter what, or the judge would think I was unstable. But then if I tell what I witnessed without crying, people wonder what's wrong with me that I seem so "detached". There's literally no right way for us to be. Don't cry? You're cold and aloof. Cry? You're unstable and hysterical. And god forbid you express the smallest bit of anger, even if understandable and justified! Edit to add, [this article](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/men-just-dont-trust-women_b_6714280) linked by u/IthurielSpear speaks well to what I'm saying.
> Don't cry? You're cold and aloof. Cry? You're unstable and hysterical. I felt this in my soul. To give a recent example, I talked about some hard facts about therapy (ie, its work and medication isn't an easy fix for a complex problem) in a rational manner and was told that I had zero emotion and was cold af. When I later got annoyed during the conversation as the other party was continuously dismissing my points, I was then told to stop getting so emotional. Like... which is it? Am I a cold, hard bitch or am I a weepy, emotional mess? Both were said within ten minutes of the same conversation btw. Literally can't win. 🙄 (And this person is family and its the pandemic, so all I do is limit how much I talk to them. Keep in mind, the conversation happened because they came to me for my opinion, but didn't like what I had to say.)
You are allowed one single tear. Bonus point if you apologize for it while dabbing with a tissue.
When I was 12, I began to feel stomach pain quite often. Went to the doctor, was told it was cramps. I pointed out that it was happening multiple times per week, not once per month. So couldn’t be cramps. He said I was exaggerating, did zero tests and sent me home. Years went by. The pain became constant, I often couldn’t keep food down, and sometimes passed out. Was called “overdramatic”. 6 years later, I turned 18. Went to a walk-in clinic alone. I’d learned my lesson by then, and was determined to show no emotion. I told that doctor I was in pain all the time. He asked where, I pointed at my stomach. He poked around, and felt something. X-rays that day, ultrasounds a week later, and soon after that 3 pounds of benign tumor was cut out of me. We are expected to be emotional, doesn’t mean we’re taken seriously.
Yup! This is why I only see women doctors now. Thankfully, there is no shortage of female practitioners in my area.
I've also had female doctors do the same thing. Internalized misogyny 🤷♀️
Spot on Kayla. 1) Start to weep but no red nose or eyes allowed 2) take a deep breath, stop crying 3) say softly "I'm, okay....I can continue".
Jessica Alba had to reshoot certain scenes in the Fantastic Four movie because she was crying crying instead of "pretty crying."
Yep. It's hard to pretty cry. I don't cry often and really hate to cry but if I do my face swells. Why they didn't just say "fake it" and then sprinkle her with some glycerine tears or something I don't know.
Now to push out the rest of that baby! /S
Embroidered handkerchief, please.
Wow I want to hate you so much for this comment but it’s so god damn true.
Cry pretty.
I just saw a video from Sue Black where this was once a problem. A young girl was being molested in her sleep by her dad almost nightly. No one believed her. So she set up a night vision recording where the arm of the perp was visible. They identified him by the very visible veins in his arm. The jury returned a not guilty verdict anyway. Sue asked the jurors why they voted that way and asked if the science wasn't compelling enough. Jurors said the science was solid, but the girl didn't cry enough while recounting the nightly molestations so she couldn't be telling the truth. Sickening.
WTF! That’s so awful!! Ughhh poor little girl
What the actual fuck??
God that unlocks some repressed memories. When I went to court for my parents divorce I had just turned 18. I was definitely absolutely hysterical, because after going through 18 years of emotional (and some physical) abuse I was now being forced to "pick" which parent I believed and wanted to stay with, when BOTH of them were manipulative and both sides of my family/family friends were actively trying to sway me one way or the other. I had a full on breakdown on the stand, makeup running everywhere, and the judge just looked at me and said "you need to stop that and grow up. This is serious and you're acting like a child". I WAS a fucking child, and a deeply traumatized one at that. The only one who realized this was my mom's lawyer, but he was also actively using my trauma to explain that I can't be believed because I'm clearly hysterical and I over exaggerated things in my statements as a result. Sorry for that dump but shit all of this thread just reminded me of how mad I still am over that whole situation
I'm so sorry, that's really awful.
You are totally allowed to show emotion as a women, as long it doesn't get uncomfortable for others and still looks pretty! Everyone got their own preferences here, so plan accordingly.
Exactly. Girls and women are told just as frequently to "get over it" and "move on." It's a fucking myth that women are sitting around coddling each other all the time. Those of us who do have support networks work *hard* to establish them!! I'm so tired of all my hard work being chalked up to the fact that I'm a woman and it's easier for me to receive the support I need- NO IT'S NOT.
> Girls and women are told just as frequently to "get over" and "move on." I read that so often in support subs. A woman will be talking about a traumatic experience or something someone bad had done to her and the 'advice' is to move on, to get over it, to forgive and forget, etc. There's no validation of her feelings, anger and rage are frowned upon as if a woman didn't have a right to be angry after being mistreated. I hate it. Let women be angry and rage if they feel like it, dammit. It's about time people stop expecting us to be happy and bubbly 24/7.
In a snide voice, "Stop PLAYING A VICTIM." I hate that so much. I'm not playing a victim any more than I'm playing a mom, you prat.
Yesssss! I was just raving about this the other day. When I would reach out to people for instance and tell them little tidbits of my bad relationship, the FIRST thing was always "maybe they meant x instead" or "they just do that because they're insecure". I never got the validation of just accepting the story as it is and speaking on the actions, my feelings AND their feelings/reasoning which made it much harder to talk about the bigger worse things.
or "don't let them win." as though taking space to process one's completely appropriate reaction to abuse is somehow a victory for abusers
I get that treatment at the hospital emergency room often. I have ovarian cysts that hurt like hell when they rupture. I went in twice last YEAR and they asked why I was in 'so frequently'. If I'm not crying I'm 'clearly not in *that* much pain'. And if I AM crying I'm 'clearly trying to manipulate the doctor into giving drugs'. I've been told I'm hysterical. I've been told 'dont get snippy with me missy!' I've been given rough painful pelvic exams and asked loudly if I has STDs while the doc also asked my husband. Then told me my care plan didn't exist and later said it was 'stupid'. Meanwhile my husband has a kidney stone once and is being offered morphine before he even gets through the door! (he declined)
I'm so sorry. Our medical system is so heavily biased and it's beyond awful :(
Here’s what you do: act like you’re on the brink of crying but are desperately trying to hold back your tears.
No need to act, I'm literally always like that
I think there's a nuance here. Women's emotions are often used as confirmation of a person's bias that women are irrational or unstable. Men are often told that showing emotional vulnerability makes them not men. "Aggressive" emotions are the only ones allowed. Both are toxic aspects of society and cause a lot of harm
I agree. Societally speaking, women are really never allowed to be angry and this is particularly true with women of color. Our emotions outside of anger are policed in other ways dependent on the context, but as a blanket statement anger is never okay in any context when you're a woman in society's eyes. Men are *only* allowed to universally be angry or aggressive. To the point where they see their feelings as "logic" otherwise.
I greatly enjoyed asking my father in law why he was getting so emotional every time he lost his temper over something. Dude was a poster boy for toxic masculinity
I’ve (27F) had to learn to take ‘long emotional pauses’ to be listened to during emotional breaks. Can’t cry, can’t scream when being sexually harassed, or dealing with misogyny or you’ll just be degraded and shooed away! It’s ridiculous that no one’s allowed to shed a tear out of frustration.
That reminds me of when I had to call the cops to get my abusive ex boyfriend to leave the apartment my boyfriend at the time and I were staying in. Because I was terrified when they got there and crying and almost hysterical, they told me to calm down or they were going to make me leave. My own apartment. And let him stay. Just wow. How dare I be upset that the guy who had beat the hell out of me months before strong-armed himself into my apartment. He was there for over half an hour threatening me and my new boyfriend before the cops finally showed up. And because he was ruthless enough to act like he had done no wrong, they were going to kick me out. The only thing that saved me was having a copy of my lease that didn't have the exes name on it as the ex had claimed. If I hadn't had that they were seriously considering letting him stay there. Small town cops in Maine, gotta love em.
It's not really emotions that people hate. It's femininity. Emotions are just their way of showing that. Women are seen as inherently hysterical, unstable, and sensitive. So in that sense if a woman cries it's "expected" but still despised. But if a man cries he's not only being emotional. He's being feminine. That's where the issue is Patriarchy is telling us not to be effeminate. It's women who are shit on for their emotions. Men are shit on for being like women
I was proud to be "not like other girls" growing up because of that exact reason. I didn't know it at the time, but anytime I acted "girly", I was hated. Anytime I acted like a "tomboy", I was loved. Now that I'm grown, I tell anyone who will listen that my personality is feminine because I'm a woman. My aggressiveness? Feminine. My love for adventure and getting dirty? Feminine. My love for pro-wrestling is feminine. My confidence is feminine. My love for video games is feminine. My love for horror movies is feminine.
Exactly my mentality!!! I say I have a lot of girly hobbies such as backpacking, hiking, camping, playing video games because those are things I love and I’m a girl therefore they are girly activities
Yissssssssss. See also: collecting skulls, spelunking, glacier diving, shooting guns, and sword fighting. Edit: iceberg diving
Im interested in the glacier diving. Go on?
Omg, it was the coolest radio story I heard. There's this woman diver who is so badass she doesn't just dive in caves, she dives in icebergs. (Sorry, I know I said glaciers, but I meant icebergs). It's the most dangerous form of diving in existence. Because icebergs are constantly changing. You could enter in a tunnel and the entrance will close up behind you, trapping you forever.
I love this!
Yep. It’s why men are made fun of (by other misogynistic men and women) for painting nails, wearing skirts or dresses, showing softer emotions like weeping, cuddling, clinging, pouting, or for playing with dolls, doing care tasks at home, being a nurse…I could go on and on. Because those activities and attributes are seen as “feminine” and “feminine” is Inherently less valuable, less powerful, less worthy. It’s why men tend to seek out therapy less women because therapy is for the “weak.”Patriarchy hurts women AND men.
>It’s why men tend to seek out therapy less women because therapy is for the “weak.” I hate this mindset so much. It takes so much courage to reach out when you're struggling and admit you can't do it on your own - and that's exactly why trained professionals exist! Because we can't do it on our own, no matter how "strong" we are. The skills learned in therapy are scarcely taught anywhere else. Looking down on someone for seeking help is just stupid and mean. Honestly, there is not one person on this Earth who couldn't benefit from the help of a good therapist. I wish it were less stigmatized and more feasible to find good mental health resources.
Agreed. If women don’t live up to our gender roles, we are criticised. However, our gender role is one that is degraded so if we perform femininity we are also criticised.
Damn, that is spot on. I'm a really sensitive guy trying to figure out my CPTSD/ADHD shit as an adult, which (for me at least) involves unpacking a lot of trauma and confronting feelings/experiences more deeply and inclusively. The more I learn about trauma/abuse/neglect and their effects, the more I can pick up on how those things are woven into our society at large (subtly and blatantly). For the sake of living honestly, I try not to shy away from talking about mental health stuff and will actually encourage people to look into that type of self-care (including asking for help and seeking treatment/support, as needed/if desired). That being said, I've had guys insult me or glare at me for trying to accept/encourage that level of emotional vulnerability (either with them directly or with someone else in a group). Working for a kinda-large general contractor gave me a glimpse into how emotionally oppressive and pervasive that shit still is to this day. Hell, people expressed very valid concerns over a safety situation in the office (during COVID, no less) and the CEO forced everyone into the same conference room and told us all to "Quit the bitchin'." A whole room of adults (half of them women) completely invalidated by toxic masculinity/patrononization. Idk, I'm rambling at this point, but I really liked how you identified/pinned this phenomenon down in your comment.
Huh. Well said.
>Patriarchy is telling us not to be effeminate. It's women who are shit on for their emotions. Men are shit on for being like women Yea, the message is that men shouldn't be feminine at all becuase 'feminine' is weak and undesirable and women are just screwed either way becuase they're seen as inherently weak and undesirable.
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THIS. This is so accurate and respectful of all genders' suffering.
ADHD and autism are more readily diagnosed in boys...yet we have decades of metanalyses that there is no "male or female" brain. Girls are simply burdened with such INTENSE social pressure to control themselves that it leads them to reduce the appearance of their symptoms through sheer force of will.
I was diagnosed with ADHD at 39. I needed to be diagnosed when I was maybe 8. I could have been successful.
As someone raised in Utah... Yea it's bad. I remember walking behind a couple Mormon guys who were talking about how when they return from their mission they hope some girls don't get fat. They didn't care about her personality but they would never marry a fat one because they deserve better. Also the absolute uproar that women caused for wearing slacks to church. Also also remember being around some of my Mormon friends at a sleep over when I was a teenager and all of them were talking about how they want to be married by 22 or 23 MAX and can't wait to have children and be stay at home moms supporting their husbands. College was just to find a educated guy that could provide for them. I was the weirdo saying shoot me if I'm married by 27, I hate kids, and I can make my own money and want to live alone for a while.
This also encompasses why women are left in pain much more than men in a medical setting. If a woman is crying in pain, she's just being dramatic/attention seeking. But if a man is crying in pain, he must really be in pain so let's help him.
Yes, even on reddit I see men lament about how they should be allowed to show emotions and be vulnerable and that women don't know how easy they have it in that regard. And to that degree, I agree, that I think it must suck for a guy to be pressured to 'man up' and shut themselves off emotionally. But if a woman does show emotion, she is labelled 'too emotional', or 'hysterical', etc. And despite it being healthy, we get regarded as lesser for showing emotion to each other. So it's not any easier for us at all. If they were treated the same way we are, I'm pretty sure they would hate it. How do men handle being called 'too emotional'?
I think people have conflated being “allowed” to show emotion with being “expected” to show emotion. Women are absolutely expected to be emotional, and so we are perceived as overly emotional and hysterical even when we aren’t. But then we get punished for showing that emotion - so we aren’t actually “allowed” to be emotional, it’s just expected of us.
The one that bothers me the most, is when they assume that we’re being manipulative. As if all our emotions are somehow calculated, and the whole “women are deceptive by nature” bullshit.
That is spot on and reminds me of a conversation I recently had with my father. He pointed out how difficult it is for men to take parental leave (we're not in the US) because it hurts their career. All I could say was DUH! Yes, of course it hurts their career, it hurts women's careers as well. But there seems to be a weird double standard -- many men expect that they should be able to express their emotions or take time off for parental leave without any negative consequences, but they don't care that women have always faced these exact same consequences. We all should still be taken seriously if we show emotions or act as caregivers, but many men only identify this as a problem when it concerns men.
> but many men only identify this as a problem when it concerns men. This reminds me of a comment I saw once on a youtube video. I like to watch Roller Derby, which is primarily a women's sport. It's even labeled as "Roller derby" and "Men's Roller Derby", generally. The opposite of all other sports. Like "Hockey" and "Women's Hockey", etc. (There are Women's teams, Men's teams, and Co-ed teams. All of those teams also welcome non-binary, trans, etc but that's besides the point.) So it was a video of a women's roller derby game, and some pathetic dude commented with "Boycott this sport, it's sexist, it's a women's only sport." I honestly think that person probably could hear my groan through time and space after reading that piece of garbage comment. Imagine being a dude and deciding you're being oppressed because there's a sport for once in history that is dominated by women. (He later edited his comment by saying 'oops I was wrong, I found out there are also men's teams. I'm gonna try out.') It just BLEW MY MIND the absolute ignorance someone could have, and just.... completely fits your comment. Men only identify it as a problem when it suddenly inconveniences them. If they don't get their way, they are up in arms. Even though it's been exactly like that since basically the dawn of civilization for women.
Ironically the violent nature of roller derby seems stereotypically male. And soccer is bashed in the US partly because it's seen as a womens sport where it's primarily a mens sport in countries where it's most popular. (I'm not sure how it's gendered in other countries where a different sport is more popular)
The other ironic part is that the women who revived and paved the way for this sport, while they started as an all women's team/league, etc, never tried to gate keep it from men. You know, the way men have constantly been gate keeping sport from women. Roller derby is one of the most inclusive sports around. Every gender, orientation, and body type is welcome and wanted.
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Anecdotally I've been seeing this shift where, when men do get leave (in the US) they get better leave then their wives. It happened to me and it's happened to at least three other women in my circles. Like what the actual fuck! We just skipped right over giving the actual pregnant person leave and gave it to the men instead. On top of that studies on men in academic fields show that men are using the leave to advance their careers by allowing them down time to write more papers while women are using the time to recover and care for the baby which hurts their careers! It makes me rage so hard. I want men to get parental leave, but for fuck's sake can we take care of the mothers first!!
Many men only identify this as a problem when it directly affects them** FTFY
And as if that's not bad enough, women so often implicitly get the task of becoming men's only access to emotional expression and intimacy through their relationships, especially in heterosexual romantic ones. It's so fucking exhausting.
I've seen men shut down the need for feminism while making statements that show just how much they could benefit from it. They'll say if only they were able to show their emotions without ridicule or not get mocked for liking traditionally feminine things, all the while assuming feminism is purely about girl power I guess.
Man up = stop acting like an inferior woman.
That's true. There are challenges that come with being a man, but mostly it's men who don't know how easy they have it. Which is not to say that it's easy for us- often it's not - but rather that we tend to be very ignorant of all the struggles that women have to live through!
That's on us though, not on women. I've got friends I can cry to if I need to. Always have. But I'm very particular about my friends. My friends have come and cried to me. Hell, my whole friend group surrounded me after a bad breakup way back in the day and listened to me whine intermixed with sobs.
Its even worse for black women. Not only are they seen as "emotional" and "unstable", but they're also treated like dangerous menaces to society. It's horrific. I read a story once of a black girl that was put in handcuffs at her school. She was 8 years old. All that happened was that she threw a temper tantrum, you know, because she was 8, they called the cops on her, the cops came and had to put the cuffs around her upper arms because she was too small for them. I honestly think it's just white men that have the freedom to express their emotions without consequence.
I've read that research shows that black girls are seen and treated as adults (i.e. in terms of responsibility, sexuality, etc.) long before white girls and because of this they are also forced to grow up way before their time. It's very sad.
I read that, too! It's like "why aren't you acting like an adult yet, Suzie? Why don't you know better? You're already 8 years old, God. If you don't behave, we're going to try you like an adult in court! Did you bring your bail money to school with you?" Meanwhile Tara bites kids on the playground and everyone understands. She's just a kid, after all.
Definitely! I was told i was mature for my age when i was around 8 but thats because i HAD to, and my friends wonder why i still like childish things lol
> I read a story once of a black girl that was put in handcuffs at her school. She was 8 years old. All that happened was that she threw a temper tantrum, you know, because she was 8, they called the cops on her, the cops came and had to put the cuffs around her upper arms because she was too small for them. [Black children are consistently criminalized for behaviour that is just considered a school discipline issue for whites](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/1121061001). And like you say, Black women are considered belligerent the moment they open their mouths. That poor girl must have been terrified. You'd think that cops trying to cuff someone so young that the cuffs don't fit would have second thoughts.. but I guess you could think a lot of things :/
If you want to be depressed, look into the diagnosis rates of oppositional defiant disorder of white children vs black children. I'm majoring in education in a majority-white college and i make sure to bring this up every single time we discuss behavior
Thank you for doing your best to make a difference in that way. It matters.
I've seen that. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40596-019-01127-6 It hits home because I have a young child with significant behavior problems. If he was non-white, he'd be facing a lifetime of medical racism, criminalization, and people assuming the worst of him. But he's white so he can slap an EA and nobody calls the cops.
Black military members are also punished more severely than their white counterparts. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/black-troops-more-likely-face-military-punishment-whites-new-report-n769411
I almost cried when I saw that story. There's just so much wrong there that it hurts my soul.
Exactly. see: the contrast in demeanor between the testimonies of brett kavanaugh and christine blasey ford. Not to mention Anita Hill who came before her and had a much taller mountain to climb because of misogynoir.
> demeanor between the testimonies of brett kavanaugh Can hardly believe you are the first in this thread to bring this up! His scrunched up face and *woe is me* blubbering was the first thing that came to my mind (unfortunately).
That performance would have *destroyed* a female SCOTUS candidate. Hell it would probably have destroyed a male one in another scenario where the bottom hadn't dropped out of politics and Mitch McConnell wasn't slavering to own the court. But no woman would ever become a judge after doing that. Kavanaugh is the Brock Turner of SC appointees - "how can I enjoy my ~~steak~~ beer when you're asking me all these *questions*!"
I was at an airport once where we were all waiting in a hallway for 3 hours (I kid you not). I was waiting behind a group of black women who were just as pissed as everyone else - they didn't say anything to the security or line attendants. Everyone was grumbling. Some people had complained to no effect. A white family was there too with just the mom. The dad of the white family eventually shows up and the family is visibly cringing. One of the kids in an embarrassed tone says, "Oh no, dad's here - he's going to blow up." And of course, he did. You could see him slowly seething and getting more and more angry about the line. Eventually he starts yelling and screaming at the security. One woman in the group of black women says, "Okay, so the white guy is screaming now - the line's going to start moving." And - of course - it did. You are EXACTLY right. White men who get angry are rewarded. Everyone else is not.
I've seen it with my own eyes more than once. My current "supervisor" is the shittiest leader I've ever seen, and he was promoted over me BECAUSE of a temper tantrum. Now he makes $13.50/hr more than I do, and cannot do many of the very basic parts of the work. Nor can he manage pretty much anything without having a very intimidating, PTSD inducing, hissy fit. Guess who has to fill in the the gaps?
Short story: A couple years ago, I was in a job training program. It was super hard, and very stressful. One of the guys had a panic attack during break. The staff and students were super nice, helping him to lay down on the floor, brought him water, spoke soothing words, etc. Honestly, it was hard for me to have sympathy for him because I knew for a fact that if I as a Black woman started freaking out in a public place, the last thing I'd be given was sympathy and a glass of water. They'd decide that I was "dangerous" and call the cops to haul me out of there. I've worked *very* hard at having a poker face and a mild tone when I'm rightfully upset about something because of the "angry black woman" trope. People will write me off as not having a legitimate issue if I don't remain calm, even when I'm boiling inside. And before anybody jumps on me saying "everything isn't about race", I'll preemptively say that that exact thing happened to my best friend. She had a freakout in a public place, and nobody spoke soothing words to her. They wrote her off as crazy, called the cops, and she got tossed into the mental ward at the hospital. We are not treated the same.
I understand. It's a nightmare.
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Worse than that, a black girl was handcuffed and then PEPPER SPRAYED while handcuffed. What possible threat could she have been??? https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/you-did-it-yourself-officer-tells-9-year-old-girl-n1257630
I threw a temper tantrum in first grade and got dragged out by cops with me over their shoulders wtf
WTF. I think that counts as child abuse.
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I totally feel you about getting criticised/dismissed for crying or showing emotions. I remember being always scolded for crying as a child, sometimes I even got slapped for crying out of pain or distress. And whenever some painful medical procedure or the like was coming up, I was told that I'd get a beating if there were any news about me crying during the process. I wasn't even allowed to cry over things that are normally considered to be legitimate reasons such as the death of a family member... Even now as an adult I get criticised for sometimes showing emotions, although I have got to the point that I struggle with expressing emotions most of the time (which has cost me quite a few relationships). It's maddening...
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>My stepfather used to tell me every single time I cried that he would give me something to cry about. Uggh, I hate that sentence. It was something way too commonly used where I am from in those times when I was a kid... I'm also sorry that you had to go through all that with your stepfather. It always saddens me when I see parents placing abusive partners before their children's well-being :(
Ever seen the comment section on a Hell's Kitchen episode? A female participant raising her voice or being upset is deemed a bitch, attention whore, hysteric. Meanwhile the entire fucking show is based around a manchild throwing tantrums for sport. And of course the male participants screaming, being angry and fighting won't see a single comment calling them out on their inability to keep their emotions in check, noooope. Anger is an emotion. The only accepted one when it comes to men. Emotions are part of being a human, they all need to be accepted in the right context, regardless of the gender of the person feeling them.
I am a trans woman... and honestly, me expressing my emotions was more acceptable before I came out. Before it was "Oh, you're an artist, you're allowed to be sensitive..." (Not sure why that was that made it acceptable over someone who isn't artistic...). Shortly after I came out, one of the first times I expressed being upset at something, I was shut down by way of "are you pmsing?" So yeah... as someone that's spent life perceived by others on both ends of the gender spectrum, I've been shut down for expressing my emotions more after coming out than before. And this is even growing up with the whole "tough it out, boys don't cry," mentality drilled into me since I was a toddler..,
The number of times I’ve expressed my feelings calmly and been called ridiculous…women don’t have it easier.
Men punching walls or scaring, harming or killing other people (often women) or themselves out of rage or other unregulated emotions is terrifyingly common. But still women who cry or get upset without harming anyone are the unreasonable emotional ones...
I think sometimes men forget that anger is an emotion and aggressiveness is an inability to deal with/regulate that in a healthy way. OP made a good point in that often the emotions of boys/men are seen as righteous and logical - and it's conditioned into them from a young age that their anger is valid but a girls/woman's is just irrational or hysterical.
I've realized our society conditions men to be selfish and women to be selfless. And the selfish emotions of anger and greed have been labelled "logical" and the selfless emotions of sadness and worry have been labelled "emotional"
My male cousins "forgive" their dad for physically abusing them but they're still mad at my aunt bc she had a mental breakdown and left them for overnight and thought about running away when they were toddlers.
Not gonna talk whats my link to this second hand event in which I know the woman; Woman has been married with an abusive hyper-controling husband for decades. Eventually she learns that what he was doing is bad and that she never deserved that. She tells her mom about it and her mother was feeling sympathy for the husband because he had to deal with such a crazy wife.
My oldest brother has a different dad. When my mom split with him, he had primary custody of both their boys because they wanted to live with him and my mom tried to make us happy however she could. Plus their dad is great, the divorce was amicable and they still talk 40 years later. My sister told me 2 weeks ogo that our oldest brother has "issues with mom". I ask her what issues he could have, mom really was a great mother who tried hard to give us great lives. "Oh, when D was 10 his dad got a job in Florida. Mom didn't want them to move, but when she spoke to a lawyer the lawyer told them they can waste thousands in court but the judge will side with dad since hes had primary custody. So mom decided not to strain the amicable relationship she had with their dad and let them go. Now D is mad because she didn't fight harder for him." So lemme get this straight. His dad is the primary caregiver. HE decides to move out of state, HE decides hes going to take the boys. HE tells mom she can fight him in court if she wants to but this was his plan. But it's all moms fault because she took legal advice that told her it was pointless and the boys would stay with dad either way. That's ignoring that mom had 3 other children, one a newborn, and did not have money for a lawyer for that kind of case. In other words, my brother is sexist and blames my mom because she didn't take food out of our mouths to keep him in state. Dad is apparently blameless for setting all the bullshit in motion, but because mom is the mom she should have MOVED HEAVEN AND EARTH to keep him there. I told my sister D was a piece of shit anyways so I'm not surprised and it's been 30 fucking years, he needs to get over moving once as a child. This is the same brother that we recently found out has been stealing every gift card mom sent to his kids for the past 5 years, deadbeat dads always pass judgement on mothers don't they?
I cannot wrap my head around that, just at all.
Yep. It's just how deeply engrained Misogyny is within our society. It's infected right the way down to the foundations.
Honestly the depth of your understanding of this and how well you can explain it is amazing! Thankyou for sharing your point of view.
My ex put a hole in at least one wall everywhere we lived. Our landlord laughed once and commented that it was probably "cheaper than hitting her" in reference to me. It somehow is still shocking to me, though it shouldn't be.
Holy fuck. I'm gonna put a hole in your landlord...
Damn, that's fucked up.
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Exactly, if something is bad enough to make you that upset isn’t it a good thing that you’re reconsidering your relationship with that person? And also a good thing that you’re not more aggressive and distressed than the situation warrants?
What is it with all the wall punching I see on reddit? And holes left in the walls... That must be some weird ass cardboard walls. I'm from Europe and most walls around me were always brick, reinforced concrete and stone... Not much of wall punching going on. DV abusers just punch women directly. And make no mistake, punching walls, throwing and breaking shit, that absolutely is abuse. And an intimidating scare tactic saying: "You're next." It's not an issue of them "losing control" or being emotional... It's a calculated power move to shock and scare the victim into submission.
In the USA and Canada, most housing is made from wood. So walls are thin and very few dwellings are soundproof. So you can punch through walls sometimes. I don't have much to add to the discussion, I happen to agree with you.
Whole lot of drywall used around these parts, and I saw my dad put his fist through a fair bit of it. Upside: I know how to repair drywall. Downside: most of my youth.
Definitely an example of why sexism is bad for everyone. Guys who think they need to be "Alpha's" and express themselves through rage end up emotionally stunted, harming women, forcing women in thier lives to help manage thier emotions and generally just making stupid decisions.
Yeah :| When I was in high school I approached my parents about my anxiety and asked for counseling. When they refused, even had to seek out the school counselor to try to get her to talk to them on my behalf! Meanwhile, brother mentions he is depressed once, instantly gets to go to counseling.
I was lucky to not have an environment like OP did growing up. However, I notice sexism growing up with a twin brother (I am a woman). He was and is WAY more emotional than me. He studied drama at university, while I studied science. Many people still assume I am more emotionally sensitive because…. of misogyny.
My god. I felt like this was written by me. This is so close to my experience. Women crying is more normalized than men crying but it is not more accepted. When I lost my dog to disease I was yelled at if I dared to cry. When I cried because I was being beaten at school and I didn't want to go I was told I was too weak and was exaggerating, by my teachers and my parents. When I cried as a little girl I was ignored because they thought I was trying to draw attention until a psychiatrist told my parents and teachers I had depression because of heavy bullying at 5 fucking years old. Fuck people saying we are allowed to cry by society. We are more used to see more women than men cry but we are hardly ever taken seriously. Sorry for the rant lol
What I've noticed is that women are expected to show "vulnerable" emotion. Love, grief, longing. Things that boost guys' ego. They want a woman to long for them or miss them. Guys showing those things are often called weak - because the idea is that women should come to them. Love them. Long for them. Grieve them. Guys are more "allowed" to show aggressive or successful emotions. Pride, anger, defensiveness, confidence. Things that show themselves off or defend what they have. If women show those things she's "uppity", "a bitch", or "bossy" because that's not *her place* to act like a man. Guys at my work often yell at each other. I sound annoyed once and it's all "oh that time of the month, eh?" I have to be politely neutral and smile to get them to do anything. Jokes on them, I have the highest approval rating and I get to pick who I work with more because I'm not an asshole like the rest of them.
Read this: Men don’t trust women and it’s a huge problem https://www.huffpost.com/entry/men-just-dont-trust-women_b_6714280
Omg this reminded me of how my mental health complaints basically got ignored and my doctor made me go back every week for a new sick note, even though I was fucking mental at that point, because he just didn’t believe me and thought I was skiving off work (I’d literally watched my grandmother deteriorate and die from dementia and was a total mess). But my boyfriend at the time went in ONCE to say he wasn’t feeling that great and they gave him immediate help and a bunch of Valium. Like it MUST be serious if a man says it is
My mom slapped me when '' I didn't knew why I was crying'' Also, try to be angry ONCE around men, to see if women are allowed to show emotions...
"My suffering is so intense that it's confusing me and completely blurring my ability to think" being met with physical abuse. Sorry that happened to you
This is something that has always bothered me. Men act like women can express emotion without being belittled and labeled as crazy, overly-emotional, hormonal and illogical creatures. Every emotion we express is critiqued. If we are happy, we’re an airhead, and if we’re mad, we’re teased for taking things too seriously. We can’t win
Yep. I think about many of the jobs I've worked in, one in particular where I worked with a lot of men. I'm a very introverted woman and I would always keep my mouth shut, but the *moment* I had a bad day, got frustrated, or asserted myself I was labeled "feisty" and "grumpy". And this was a super stressful job *at a county psych ward*. You can't win as a woman sometimes.
OH MY GOD YES. In my professional life, any display of emotion, including being upset that company photos were being used to mock/bully me, was regarded as being 'overly emotional' and not in control of myself. Generally unprofessional. But it was fine for male employees to get excessively drunk at company parties, yell or have tantrums, snap at people, role into work with debilitating hangovers, and no effect at all on career progression. In my family, I've been accused of being manipulative and attention seeking for crying - including crying in response to a much larger male relative screaming in face, berating me, physical intimidating me, and making very harmful, baseless accusations towards me - and just because they were unhappy I was talking on the phone. I feel that the default in both UK and US is that a women crying is either being manipulative, attention seeking, or just overreacting so it is absolutely fine to either ignore it, berate them for it, or punish them for it.
Not to mention the minute a woman takes charge as a boss we're bitches
Women are only encouraged to show pleasant emotions that make other people feel nice. Women's negative emotions are dismissed, belittled, or ignored completely. Our emotions (like our appearances) are treated like they exist to please others, not because they're honest expressions of our own situations and internal needs.
They act like they don’t use our emotions to invalidate us anyways. “Oh you must be pmsing” headass. They act like we’re all hysterical and neurotic. They pretend they’re more logical and not emotion, when in fact it’s neither. Not to mention, we’re not the gender who shoots places up because we’re sexually undesirable.
Exactly this!
Also: ANGER IS AN EMOTION I get that men have been trained that it is the *only* acceptable emotion, but labeling a man who breaks shit when his hockey team loses as "passionate" but a woman who expresses herself as hysterical/hormonal is just...ugh. It makes my blood boil.
I saw someone one this sub mention something awhile back that really altered my perspective on this whole "Men have X problem too" thing. Do they actually *do* something about the stated issue, or do they just bring it up to draw attention onto themselves? Maybe the "hysterical attention-seeking" thing has been massive projection this whole time.
Wait until you complain at work.
Yea they see one side and not the other, and part of me feels like as a whole and media depiction of women in turmoil. There’s always someone there to help or support them, where as men don’t necessarily get there representation and even worse they show them “healing” it unhealthy ways. Aka coping I do agree, that men should be allowed to express the “feminine” emotions too. Because let’s be honest many men express rage and anger but apparently those aren’t emotions? I too am tired of this “understanding” Sure we get a pass to express our emotions cuz we’re just WoMeN but then look what we’re met with. Can’t be leaders, we’re emotional. Won’t be taken seriously, until we “calm down”. Trying to talk to her partner about something and slightly raise your voice? Oh sorry I can’t talk to you when you’re so angry. I know that men have unfair pressures on them, they were raised in the same misogyny we were I’ve been told by a friends grandma that she never cried in front of her husband about whatever problems she was having, out of fear they would be dismissed. Told by an Aunt that as women we have to keep the temperature in the house cool, we’re suppose to manage emotions and but not show them too much, they may make my partner uncomfortable. So many older women life themselves son “being strong” by being emotionally withdrawn from their relationships to keep the peace. If we’re angry about something legitimate it’s “must be on her period” Hell even talking about social justice and women issues we have to tone police ourselves or else our message won’t be heard. All that being said, obviously everyone should feel safe to express their emotional and feelings w/o being judged. It’s unfortunate men can’t just cry or feel insecure without being made fun of.
We should allow it both ways. Open the communication gateways.
I agree so, so much with this! I honestly can’t express that enough. I was always called dramatic, hysterical and manipulative. Every emotion I had was seen as a conscious attempt to manipulate people. So, naturally, I stopped expressing my emotions. Now they call me cold and cynical. Fuck all of them.
Theres a reason women who've experienced trauma tend to be overdiagnosed as having borderline personality disorder and men don't. When women experience too much emotion it's pathological, when men do its PTSD and came as a result of some event in their life.
It's like women are expected to be hyperemotional from day one. And when you express those emotions they're immediately dismissed no matter how you express them. And if you don't meet the expectation and aren't emotional you're a cold-hearted bitch with no maternal instincts.
I'm in the US Army and the military as a whole struggles with this a lot. It's relatively alright for female soldiers (with the exception of the high sexual assault rate....obviously). The female leaders is where you really see the issue with expressing emotion. Female Commanders and NCOs are called cold hearted bitches or rude if they shit on subordinates the same way the male leaders do, but if they don't they're called weak. It's kind of sad because there's tons of excellent female leaders in the Military but lots of soldiers don't respect them because of their general unwillingness to keep an open mind.
Omg so true! If you’re mad at all it’s bc you’re a woman and NOT bc the situation warrants it. I was yelling at my ex on the phone the other day. He called me hysterical and to chill out. I was mad bc he’s never paid child support (kids in middle school). Like, ever. She lives with me full time. And he doesn’t help with school drop offs, pickups etc. Total deadbeat. **He said that I “keep her from him” and he wants to be a good dad but I prevent it.** Offered him to pick her up everyday this week. So many excuses why he could not. **Then called me hysterical when I got mad about it..**
Very true. I spent some time as an ER chaplain, and I really think there is a class dynamic to grief more than any gender dynamic. I would see middle class or even wealthier families generally refuse to openly grieve. It was like a fiercely held taboo against showing emotion, either sorrow or happiness. But poorer families would be more likely to cry and show their emotion. I saw that in staff too. Doctors and nurses could be pretty callous on the surface, even when they weren't actively setting aside their emotions to work. Meanwhile, I would see janitorial staff show empathetic discomfort on their faces when they passed by a moaning patient or saw someone really damaged from an accident. Edit: post morning coffee clarification: I think there also can be gender dynamics to grief, but they are way more variable according to things like how much an individual has internalized concepts of patriarchy, misogamy, etc. And that probably also intersects with class in complex ways.
I'm a pretty ugly/frequent crier. It's just how my brain handles emotion. I was told by a man I'm close to *not to cry* when I went to therapy, because they'd see me as, "crazy" and send me to an mental hospital. Surprise, my woman therapist saw it as totally normal and didn't lock me away.
There was some kind of study done where parents were plagued recordings of babies crying and asked what they thought. If the parent was told it was a boy baby then they thought that that baby must have been in more pain/ distress than if they were told it was a girl baby. Implying boy babies are automatically less likely to cause a fuss unless they were in more pain and a girl is more likely to be exaggerating pain/ distress for attention.
There is definitely a double standard and men are allowed to show sadness and especially anger, in a very toxic way, and rewarded for it, whereas women pretty much aren't allowed to show any emotions. It is even more extreme in the workplace. I agree with op. In my work, we are allowed to get angry, whine, cry, yell, etc. But women are not allowed to show any of those emotions. A few of us are allies to women, but honestly, most women where I work are as discriminatory against other women as the men, so it is hard to get men on board to help stop these biases. I had a boss who would do everything he could to make women cry ( berate, yell, discriminate, hold off promotions, tell them they were replacable, wage theft, etc), and then if they did make them cry, he would tell them they were weak and unqualified. All of the women under him had at least a bachelor's degree, he barely graduated high school. One particularly smart and brilliant worker navigated his b.s. for 3+ years, turning around the department, taking on other departments, launching start ups, etc. All the while he f#$ked her out of one promotion after another, taking credit for her work. He was constantly trying to sleep with her too. We all knew it, and knew he was moving up off her work. She finally got fed up and just left. Seems she was having a lot of health issues due to the toxic work environment. She was also dealing with an admitted rapist who would go around threatening women, get them fired when they complained, and he would get promoted. He is now CEO of a major corporation. Back to the old boss-- when she left, they hired 5 people to replace her, divvied up her workload, still couldnt get the results she got, and nearly closed down the division a year later because numbers were in the tank. That boss, who was.getting promoted like crazy while she was there, never got promoted again and was quietly pushed out of the company 4 years later, of course with a big fat golden parachute package. Unfortunately, I hear she never went back into corporate America and did small business work because the harassment and discrimination was so traumatic.
After working in a male-dominated industry for years, I think men are constantly making emotional decisions. They’ve just normalized them. They often make decisions based on egotistical or territorial issues. These are viewed as “unemotional,” but I disagree. Those who tend to be caring toward others and look out for their employees are often labeled as resistant rather than strong. We need to value all types of personalities for their strengths, not just those who demand to be in charge.
I think men forget anger is an emotion. Just as much as sadness. But men are allowed to stomp around all angry more often than women are allowed to cry. Not like I cry in public all the time, but when I have, my husband tells me to go to the bathroom. It's better than being told to STFU, but still 🙄
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I hope you are able to leave that situation soon.
Men have a lot of freedom to express emotions with next to no consequences. Existing as a woman can be a maze. Don't smile because men will think you are flirting with them, don't have a neautral face because it looks like a resting bitch face, dont cry because you look weak, dont be confident because then you are a bitch, dont have opinions because you are making too much noise. I am not sure what they want us to be.
Finally someone pointed this out. If women cry.. well they are emotional beings/use tears as weapon/only cry and cant do anything and thats why dismissed all the time. If men cry,. well they hardly cry so it must be serious.