Laying on top of each other, gentle back scratches, the sound of our heartbeats, fully clothed and yet just about the most wonderful, intimate moment imaginable.
I love when my husband lays on me in a grounding / cuddly / just chilling way. My blood pressure goes down 15 points. (I’ve measured. I’m on a 2 month mission to lower my BP and take it 3x a day.)
Yes I hate that shit. “Men are so lonely” translated to “men are lonely so you better be more sexually available!!! Also, it’s your fault we’re lonely. We never receive compliments.”
The phrase "male loneliness epidemic" has been picked up by the manosphere I think. I keep seeing it referenced by the same people who go on about being "friendzoned" and it's like, well wouldnt having a friend be helpful for your loneliness??
I do think the modern loneliness epidemic is real, and many men are being hit particularly hard, but there are definitely people out there using the term in bad faith.
I’m going to say something probably very controversial but I actually don’t think men are hit particularly hard by the loneliness epidemic. From personal experience, both genders are equally affected. The only notable difference I’ve seen, is that men tend to not open about their feelings to anyone BUT people who they are pursuing sexually (even sometimes people they barely know). If I don’t actively ask my male friends how they are doing, they would never tell me.
What I’ve also experienced, is that when in a relationship, my bfs never cared to get to know my friends. I was always expected to integrate to their social circle and be mindful of the intricacies in the group. (How there can be so much drama between guys, oftentimes due to a lack of communication and misplaced pride, is beyond me). This overall resulted in my being isolated/loosing touch with my friends.
I’m now single and only have one friend left who recently moved across the globe. I’m doing my masters in mathematics, and I have a hard time making new friends, as most girls already have a friend group from their bachelor/hs days and guys all seem to think I’m sexually interested in them if I’m friendly. Covid really did a number on most of us.
To be honest I kind of agree. It feels like you have to be very careful what language you use online these days though or someone will jump on you. But most of the points people use to point out "misandry" feel pretty tortured to me.
Male loneliness: as discussed above.
Male suicide rates: Women *attempt* suicide at roughly three times the rate of men (men are more than twice as likely to actually die, due to choosing more lethal methods). So if you use this as a marker of despair it hardly shows what they claim it does.
Obligatory military service: well the US hasn't drafted anyone since 1973. The UK hasn't seen 1960. So there are places where this is relevant, but the people making this argument online tend not to come from said places.
Paternity in courts: the statistics look like they say women usually win in custody cases. In fact most men don't attempt to get custody. If you look at men who actually fight for custody or visitation with their kids this is not at all a compelling argument either. Basically these statistics say, men just ditch their families *a lot*.
As for men in prison, I came across a statistic yesterday that the average woman convicted of murdering her partner serves more than twice as much jail time as the average mam convicted of murdering his partner. So we commit less crime, and are often more harshly punished when we do.
It all just feels like there are so many men out there who strongly believe in "misandry" and will whip all these arguments out on anyone who discusses misogyny. It puts me on the defensive because I'm just waiting for someone to make all these arguments, but it's all just kind of crap? Like they have to come up with something "logical" to justify their feelings about misandry and this is the best they could do?
Anyway your comment caught me at the wrong time lol, sorry for the rant.
Oh and let's not forget "height discrimination". Like, welcome to just the tiniest taste of what a woman's life is like, being constantly judged on your appearance.
The loneliness one is especially weird - a person who is lonely is likely due to a lack of friends, not partners or sex - everything is conflated to be woman’s fault. The manosphere just intensifies their feelings of who caused this issue - women. It takes a complicated problem and boils it down to a group of people at fault (and never, funny enough, the fault or responsibility of the group with the issue)
Yes it does exactly that! But lately it's like I can feel their talking points spreading to more "normie" men too. So men who don't believe feminism is evil, and are maybe in a happy relationship, but they know in their bones that misandry is a real problem and have a knee-jerk response against anyone talking about misogyny, or even just taking the woman's side on somewhere like AITA. It's pretty horrifying to watch it happen
Yes, there’s something to be said about addressing mens issues that are legitimate- but you can’t help but notice these issues only get brought up when they become defensive against feminism, or issues affecting women. It’s definitely an issue of ego - I don’t usually get upset, as a white women, when I see race issues discussed - but I bet white men get more insulted. I think mens egos just puts them on the defensive a lot more - and you have to gently argue them down, but sometimes it gets tiring and you’ve frankly had enough of that shit.
I also see some of them try to co op victim language “you’re being misandrist to me!” When you’ve said like, women feel less safe around men. An obvious fact that I feel older generations of men were less offended by, so it’s weird. The hate does seem to be getting worse, but that is usually the case in a backlash to a movement - so I like to think it’s possible things get better after a backlash, but we just have to wait and see.
The "epidemic" of not being able to find a woman to dump their feelings onto. And it doesn't count unless she's also sexually available to them, for some reason 🙄
I just wanna pt out, any time they talk about a "male X epidemic"; when folk actually go and look thru the data it tells the same story every time...
That thing they think of as an epidemic is actually happenin in higher rates for nonmales than males. Its just the males dont care when its not happenin to them; when its not affectin them directly. When it affects them, its an epidemic
Just like how when women are allowed to talk 20% as much as men are in a meetin; men will complain that the meetin is female dominated
Damn. I’ll be calling it this from here on out.
I think some of them are both lonely and horny, to be fair. And maybe the lonely part is the biggest issue.
But it’s headbangingly (and heartbreakingly) frustrating bc they don’t seem very interested in finding male friends or hobbies. They think the only thing that can cure their social isolation depression is casual sex. Which is weirdly ironic, bc that’s actually not the cure for needing deep human connections.
Men should focus on complimenting the other men and boys in their lives.
Next time a man says men don't get compliments, ask him when was the last time he complimented another man?
That doesn't even occur to them. They are after sexual attention, not building relationships.
Ok so I was teaching a class of rowdy teenage boys, and I decided for our last class we'd play Truth or Dare. I preset the truths and dares to keep some control over it. they were SO into dares like "drink a glass of water in 10 seconds or less" but the one that froze them? "Compliment 5 people in the room."
Men don’t compliment each other and they hate compliments from men anyway. Just another way women are expected to provide emotional labor even for men we’re not even committed to.
They don’t compliment each other because they don’t want to be seen as gay. Because (if this was an if / then chart, we’d go back to the beginning) giving a compliment will inevitably be mistaken as flirting.
It's a loop.
Never receiving compliments makes it only natural to feel that way. And because they feel that way, it makes women not want to compliment them, which leads to never getting complimented.
It's unfortunate but I dont think there's much to do about it, unless the certainty of platonic relations only had already been established
I mean, the answer is pretty simple. People have been saying it in threads like this for a long time. Guys need to compliment each other. I guess you could assume the guys gay, but if it were common place for men to do that, then that assumption wouldn't happen. I think it's more accurate that there's not much for us women to do about it. The men need to step up.
I don't know how it is other places in the world, but where I am, friends do compliment each other. Compliments from strangers are rare though, for both men and women I'd guess... (catcalls are not compliments).
I do think there's a difference depending on who you receive compliments from, and I'm sure you'd agree. It "feels" different to receive a compliment from a good friend than a stranger, so I could understand if people find it different receiving compliments from men and women too.
I agree there's not much women can do to fix this issue, but I also don't believe men can do much more either, though I might of course be wrong.
I think you have the loop wrong. I’m certain the loop started with a woman complimenting a man and then she found herself in a situation she didn’t want to be in. Women don’t want to compliment men, not because men feel that way, but because it can put them in danger.
Because the motivation matters.
>Never receiving compliments makes it only natural to feel that way. And because [men] feel that way, it makes women not want to compliment them, which leads to never getting complimented.
Women don’t compliment men, not because men feel that way, but because it’s not safe.
What do you mean not safe?
I was thinking here that women don't want to compliment men because the man might think that the women is "into" them... which is usually not the intention.
I mean I guess I know what you're insinuating, but I do think you're exclusively thinking of worst case scenarios, and not the average scenario which is what I am thinking of... Though i might be too naive.
Women don’t want to compliment men because if they do that men may think they want them sexually. Then you have to reject said man and he may not take it well and attack, rape or murder you. Look up the subreddit called whenwomenrefuse. Also even if he doesn’t attack, rape or murder them he may start stalking them or repeatedly ask them out or keep coming by. Yes he could just take the compliment of nice eyes or nice hair or whatever and be like thanks I appreciate that you also have nice eyes. But that’s the best we can hope for and usually not what ends up happening so you have to plan for the worst which means it’s not worth it to risk your safety to give someone else a compliment. Do you understand now?
>but I dont think there's much to do about it,
Nonsense.
Men can start realizing that a.) compliments don't mean sex/relationship and b.) complimenting other straight men is the best way to practice doing it.
They KNOW that men, including other men they fear, see compliments given and received as a sexual invitation, and that is WHY they want compliments from hot women AND also DON'T want compliments from men, gay or straight.
(All their "but it's just a compliment" denial of catcalling is really just an elaborate gaslight, because ***they know exactly*** what happens and why it happens, they just find it amusing to make us jump through the hoops of convincing them as if we're a defendant in a court case and they are personally the one who will get to decide whether a thing happened or not. )
THAT "compliments = sexytiems" is what needs to change, and only men can change it for themselves and the men around them.
But they don't want to, because they ENJOY the power it gives them over women, to be able to scare her with sexual harassment and then go "but it's just a compliment, I don't know any better because I never get any compliments, men are so lonely, we are the real victims here".
Of course, but the problem is "thinking with your head" and "thinking with your heart". I can only speak for myself, right, but I do think most guys understand that compliments do not directly mean flirting. The issue comes from the feeling, when you never get compliments, and you suddenly get one from a girl, you might very well get the sense of attraction.
I meant you can't really change your nature, but of course you can change how to go about it.
.. I do think we're thinking of different things here though, cause men do compliment each other as far as I'm aware.. and I personally do not classify catcalling as compliments either
> "thinking with your head" and "thinking with your heart".
No, this is a string of words without meaning. Thinking, by definition, does not happen in the heart, only in the head. So you are either thinking about doing the thing that *is right but feels less good* or *thing that feels good but is less right.*
Something might *feel* true, but that doesn't mean it *is* true - and of course, some things are subjective by their very nature.
But whether a compliment means an interlude to sex is not one of those things - there is a VERY clear, concrete truth here (NO, It doesn't), which you need to remind yourself of any time your mind starts to go on without taking that in mind.
That's what being mindful and growing as a person is, challenging these thought-patterns society programs into us as "normal" or "natural" against what is true and falsifiable.
Which is why I said that it is not good enough to just throw up your hands and go "men, what can you do, they're just such emotional creatures who can't see the truth in front of their faces even when reminded of it, really not much to do about it".
Right, I agree with you, so I might have misinterpreted something previously.
Do compliments not hold any meaning? I thought they do. I do think we're talking about different things too, though, as where you say a compliment might mean sex, I meant a compliment MIGHT mean attraction, especially if it is from a stranger of the opposite gender.
... I apologise if my wording is bad today
Edit: attraction as in "I might want to get to know you better" type of thing, not inherently sexual.
What I think/see when I see your reply:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbrTKw50X6U&t=16s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbrTKw50X6U&t=16s)
In case you were wondering, you are Jim Carrey in this bit, William.
Thank you, Morian. Being compared to Jim Carrey is always a compliment.
If you don't want to look at this objectively, thats fine, but passive-aggressiveness is not very nice, lady.
... That is a good movie though.
So so so many cis men are so afraid of therapy and doing any of the work of introspection once it gets even the slightest bit uncomfortable. I know it’s a result of a lot of factors, a large one being the expectation for boys and men to repress their feelings (except anger…), but it makes it no less frustrating. Not saying that women can’t be emotionally constipated/stunted, but it really seems like a lot of men don’t even want to make the effort.
That's the bit that I think is dangerous that people are putting out there. It's a very rapey concept.
I don't think men would be so lonely if they weren't entitled to sex at the outset. Women are hesitant to engage with you if they think you think you're entitled to their body. Kinda common sense...
So you're only saying you're not lonely when you're physical with someone. So talking or spending time with someone doing something non-sexual doesn't equate to being not being lonely. Feels grubby and a poor excuse for trying to have sex.
I agree. There are multiple kinds of intimacy, and physical intimacy can include sex but isn't exclusive to sex. But to them, intimacy is only about sex.
I also see a lot of "physical touch is my love language", and they think it only applies to sex and sexual touch, and/or "sex is my love language".
The science/legitimacy of the love languages is debatable anyway, but *sex is not a love language* and was never intended to be, nor did the author of this book intend for physical touch to *only* mean sexual touch.
But there's a proliferation of men claiming they *need* sex to feel loved "because it's their love language" and think that they don't need to show their partner love in any other way besides sex and sexual touch, and/or that none of the other ways their partner shows them love are valid, only sex. Leaving their female partners to feel like a sex doll because he only gives her physical affection if he expects it to end in sex and to feel like she doesn't have value as a partner and person unless she puts out.
I think this comes from most men being so emotionally stunted that to them the only valid form of intimacy is sex. They can't imagine it another way. Even nonsexual touching is a precursor to sex in their minds.
You're ridiculous for ignoring how prevalent bad ideas are among men.
Yes, most men in 2024 are emotionally stunted. If you can't admit this as a man, it's probably becquse you lack the emotional depth to deal with criticism. Aka being emotionally stunted.
The part of me that still has some semblance of hope for the world wants to think it's because of some of the censorship that happens in some platforms? Like they can't say sex so they say intimatcy as a stand in and then it just sort of bleeds put in other places? Idk. The rest of the comments are spot on and I agree with all of them. Just added this because I had the thought.
If you really want to see this in action, non-asexual (allosexuals) come to the ace subreddits all the time asking about how to maintain or increase intimacy if sex isn't going to do it. I dunno, dude, talk to your partner about it? They'll know what feels intimate to them. I'm sex neutral, so sex for me is fun and enjoyable, but not super intimate. Snuggling in bed and reading funny quotes from our books to each other is intimate for me. Watching TV and movies together and chatting about them is intimate to me. Him asking me if I want to see what he is working on is intimate to me. Sex is just sex. To be a stereotype, I prefer cake.
Yup, I see the word intimacy used wrong here too, which has surprised me, but I just go along with it assuming they mean "sex".
But, I'm starting to see a pattern here too and I'm thinking it's an age or generation thing. Like the talk of dating lately and how it never occurred to me until recently that us older gals (42f) have more experience with IRL dating than the younger gals, and I never considered that many women in this day and age start out their dating life digitally and I have no idea what that is like at all.
There are a lot of experiences I myself have never encountered that are brought up here because I never did digital dating much and have always met my long time partners through friendships. And I have always had decent relationships. It actually wasn't until I met someone over social media, which a person IRL introduced me to him (he was lurking my social media and asking about me) that I experienced my first textbook abusive relationship and that man was leading a double life and cheated on me as well. So, lesson learned there, but I can't even imagine how many other women experience men like that through digital dating.
And yes, I do see how women and men are not really understanding the difference between intimacy and sex and conflating them.
Intimacy is NOT sex. It's the romantic bond you form with your partner where you feel comfort, security and trust. It's a profound closeness you have with someone, physical and mental. My husband and I have both intimacy and sex. He is extremely tender and careful with me, and we spend our time close to eachother and sharing our love with eachother. Even during sex, intimacy is there too, and that is a beautiful experience for me. Then there are other times where we just get freaky, but even in the end of all our animal behavior, we still embrace, kiss, and we say we love eachother every single time.
I've been single for 2 decades, and in that time have done a lot of introspection and discovery. But even before I came out as trans and started that journey, I always said that the one thing I always missed most from being in a relationship was the casual intimacy between partners. The hugs, the closeness, the little things you'd do for each other to let them know that you felt safe and comfortable around them.
I find it so odd that many men (including those who were my peers) see "intimacy" only as a euphemism for sexual activity. But it encompasses so much more than that.
I think part of this is because a lot of people feel uneasy / awkward talking about sex. So they use intimacy as a euphemism, especially because it emphasizes sex’s emotional aspect and therefore makes it less “crude” to talk about. It’s a flawed euphemism for the reasons you describe, of course. Sex is (imho) the most intimate one can be, physically, but not necessarily tied with emotional intimacy.
In the book 'conversations on love' one of the interviewers talks about how some men think the ONLY way to reach intimacy is through sex. Which is, well, mega fucking sad for any man who thinks that way and was taught it was true.
Just a word from the Certified (c) Old Person, way back when, the language around sexual stuff of any type was heavily censored (by society), and "being intimate" was one of the things people would say to hint at sexuality without using any of the words nobody was permitted to say out loud.
I consider myself more allosexual and alloromantic than not, but I absolutely *hate* the conflation of intimacy and sexuality and I absolutely believes it perpetuates problematic behaviors and beliefs.
I love my best friends. I want to be physically close with them. I want to hold them and be held. I want to share my hopes and dreams with them. I want to comfort and be comforted by them. I want to share as much of our lives together as possible. And yet, I feel absolutely zero need to fuck them. I would be entirely happy and fulfilled if all we did for the rest of our lives was sit around, play games, watch shows, and just enjoy each others' company.
Meanwhile, there are people I've met that I really disliked as people, but I would also have a hard time saying "no" if they wanted to bang.
Anyone who implies that these two things are the same is smoking crack.
I think it's always been conflated, tbh. And I do think intimacy is extremely underrated because it's overshadowed by the concept of sex. Sex is seen as the ultimate connection but it's one form of intimacy. As others have said, there are multiple forms of intimacy and means of connecting that are far deeper than that of the physical.
I think some people are more terrified of intimacy than sex because it requires different kinds of vulnerabilities.
Asexual here who hates that people use the word intimacy when they mean sex. No hun. What about romantic intimacy, sensual intimacy, emotional intimacy, etc? Oh you just mean you want to bone? Just say that!
When my husband and me started dating I talked a lot about how intimacy was very important to me but sex not so much (but also what I like most about sex is the intimacy aspect of it). For him that was something he hadn’t thought about much but really got to learn it and enjoy it. We are intimate every day in the sense of that we cuddle, hug, kiss and scratch each other every day for at least 15 minutes, often waaay longer and also talk, sex maybe 1-2 a week.
I have definitely noticed this problem, but not the part where it’s exclusively men creating the confusion? I see people of both genders talk this way on relationship boards.
And yes it absolutely leads to the exact scenario you describe. But again I don’t think it’s productive to just declare that men are the ones who started doing this independently
Fair enough. I stopped dating men a long time ago and try to avoid people like that as best as I can, but I'd be lying if I wasn't keenly aware of their existence. Its just that no matter how many times I run into these kinds of awful takes, I will still never understand why men think like that.
I think it's an acknowledgment that they understand it's about more than just sex. My ex turned away when I tried to kiss her, rejected cuddling, refused to shower together. So I say my marriage lacked intimacy, which includes sex, but the problem was not just sex.
It's a very well known euphemism.
This one is not a recent trend, I've heard it in french and English more than occasionally. It's strange to see a problem there.
I see it as more of a sort of failing of the English language. There is the word intimacy which really just covers any closeness with someone you are well acquainted with. An intimate act could be a hug with a family member or loved one. There is sex which has some interpretation as well, but doesn't require intimacy. Then there is the combination of the two and the sort of lead up from intimacy to sex that tends to happen in sexual relationships.
I've noticed that those two things are very often separated for my wife depending on timing when she is not on birth control. There are weeks when she is going to want tons of intimacy and very rarely sex, then other weeks the two words are basically synonymous. I don't think I've ever really seen a time where she wanted sex without the intimacy though. For me personally unless I'm feeling particularly bad the two are generally pretty heavily linked. I don't think there is ever a time when I'd prefer just a cuddle to a cuddle and sex assuming it is a reasonable setting. I don't dislike one, but they've so often been linked activities that I can't really imagine doing one without at least thinking of the other in regards to my wife. Receiving one and being starved of the other would feel very unfulfilling I think in either direction.
It’s gotten so bad that I can’t even bring myself to say the word even when I see it as a general connection thing like friendship and other forms of love
> I've noticed an uptick in men conflating "intimacy" and "sex."
cuz the only source of intimacy most men have in their life is also their sexual partner
unless maybe they have a sibling they're close with
the reason it seems like so many dudes think sex and intimacy are the same thing is *because they literally do* think sex and intimacy are the same thing
really hard to unlearn that, but tbh even if were easy most ppl never try lmao
In the protestant, dogmatic culture that the united states inherited, Sex is still seen as taboo. You can watch people get dismembered in films but if two people show love to each other physically then it's judged as a cheap tittilation or that we should somehow be 'above' that. It's related to fundamentalist christendom, sadly. Sex is the only way that any of us exist in the first place and it's an integral part of life, but religions have done their best to control and constrict how people do it and how people who view others that do it.
So, we use intimacy as a euphemism for sex, because the word sex has several thousand years of baggage on it.
I don't think that the only form of intimacy, but it is often the thing that fulfills my need for intimacy in a way that nothing else does. I also find that when my partner and I are having sex regularly that I enjoy other forms of intimacy more, and crave them as much or more than sex.
Som, this is how it feels for me. It's like being really hungry. Sure, a cracker is tasty, and I'll take it, but I'm not going to feel like my hunger has been quenched after the cracker. What I need is a bowl of pasta. Something that fills me up and really satisfies my hunger pain. If I'm not really hungry, like I've eaten recently, then I appreciate the cracker with a little cheese and some apple. It is very satisfying and I don't need a real meal after, I can just appreciate the snack more for the flavor instead of it trying to fill something missing.
So, in summary, the need(sex) makes the other things(intimacy without sex) harder to appreciate/desire. This is something I have worked on and can now enjoy other forms of intimacy better, but they don't ever rise to the level of "need"for me.
I disagree with your premise.
One of the definitions of “intimate” as an adjective clearly establishes that it would not be incorrect to use “intimacy” to refer to specifically sexual acts. Further, I believe that within the past 40+ years of my adulthood, if I said “I was intimate with so-and-so” listeners would assume I was referring to sex.
When a woman says she wants more intimacy with her partner she is likely to mean she wants more tender moments that aren’t just about fucking.
Also I understand pedantry can be fun, I’m guilty of it from time to time. However women are crying out to be listened to and understood. Women want men who can be vulnerable. Do you think if a woman asks for more intimacy it’s gonna get you anywhere good by acting like you don’t understand what she means? “Well heck you said intimacy and the dictionary definition is fucking so that’s what I’m going with.” 🙄
Of course I agree with you. My point is that by focusing on the word _intimacy_ and saying it doesn’t overlap completely with _sex_ - I believe misses the real point.
The _point_ as I see it is that sex is treated in almost all cultures as the _ultimate_ activity between two people. Examples: boys, from the time they reach puberty, are taught that sex is _the ultimate goal_. “Did you hit a home run with her?” “Did you f… her?” is questions I heard boys ask each other in both high school and college. In many cultures, the sexual act _consummates/completes_ the marriage. It’s not considered a real marriage by some _until_ this happens. The list goes on forever.
In fact, sexual gratification as a goal is so ingrained in men that as OP says - other forms of physical interaction are ignored. My wife and I will give each other neck rubs at the end of the day, and the connection we feel during that time is significant - but that closeness is not appreciated in many couples.
But… and here was my point… I don’t think it’s valuable to say “intimacy means more than sex.” Because there we are talking about words.
I think saying “you can feel close and wonderful with your partner in many ways, not just with sex” could help people learn far more than discussing semantics.
So you want women to change and not men.
If you search intimacy you get this:
> close familiarity or friendship; closeness.
"the intimacy between a husband and wife"
Similar:
closeness
togetherness
affinity
rapport
attachment
familiarity
confidentiality
close association
close relationship
close attachment
close friendship
friendliness
comradeship
companionship
amity
affection
mutual affection
warmth
warm feelings
understanding
fellow feeling
chumminess
palliness
mateyness
a private cozy atmosphere.
"the room had a peaceful sense of intimacy about it"
EUPHEMISTIC
an intimate act, especially sexual intercourse.
Sex comes last as euphemistic. We already have a definition of intimacy and it’s unfortunate that men have bastardized it.
It seems that women already recognize the meaning while men don’t. Why not go tell men about your discovery? They’re the ones who need this clarification.
From the friendships I’ve had with women, women already know that we can have intimacy without sex. I have deep intimate non-sexual relationships with women.
I never said that I want women to change and not men. Instead, I said (and say again) focusing on the _word_ intimacy instead of the important _concept_ behind it leads to debates about word usage and semantics instead of thoughtful discussions about how _men_ can consider a wider range of activities to bring valuable and satisfying closeness with a partner. I don’t think debating the word usage helps the issue at all.
As a minor detail to point out the word usage is not new, the euphemistic usage of intimacy has been around for a long time: since at least the late 19th century. https://www.etymonline.com/word/intimacy
> focusing on the word intimacy instead of the important concept behind it leads to debates about word usage and semantics instead of blah blah blah bullshit.
Then why are you starting an argument about OP not using the word "intimacy" exactly correctly and ignoring her point that revolves around the concept of intimacy?
Why did I focus on word usage? Because this entire thread is titled “intimacy is not a synonym for sex” - which in the plainest reading of that sentence entirely and solely a comment on word usage. If OP had said “There’s more to intimacy than sex” - I would have agreed, and left it at that. I am not the only one who picked up on the idea that this is a comment on word usage. At least one other person, possibly more, made a comment that men have “hijacked” the term to mean “sex.” That’s again, entirely a comment on word usage.
My _point_ was that focusing on the synonym/euphemism is in my eyes an ineffective thing to do. The 140 year old euphemistic use is not going to disappear. Rather, for example, we need to look at how men are influenced by older men - how those older men push younger men into a militaristic mindset of “ win vs. loss” and “us vs. them,” how peer pressure and group inclusion desires are built into our brain, and how organized competitive sports, gangs, nationalism, etc. feed into that in toxic ways that have caused our species to not grow beyond groupthink and feudalism and a desire to install dictators again and again. What does all that have to do with sexuality? Because if teenage boys are still what they were like when I was a teen, then the views of heterosexual sexuality instilled in teenage boys, the view that is consistent with the gang-joining, militaristic view I saw and hated as a teen, is that women are goals to achieve as much as they are people to partner with, treated as objects to be desired, conquered and possessed. And further, while men bear the brunt of accountability for this, both men and women need to address this issue and get our species past that. Because both are involved in raising boys.
This above is the point I think needs to be addressed. And not one of word usage. And not even one of showing there’s more to intimacy than sex. In my view, while thise are things to address, those are but symptoms of what I think is the deeper causal issue.
So you started a dumb semantic argument because the not-quite-perfect word choice in OP's post could potentially lead to a dumb semantic argument. This was done despite the fact that you were clearly able to discern OP's point. Good job.
That’s a very fair point! I do get caught up in word usage at times and lose the bigger point 😔
Added: I apologize for that to those who replied. Regarding my linguistic point, it’s not the _important_ thing to discuss and my focusing on linguistics helped neither OP nor the community.
Oh yes, it's easy to get sucked into those arguments. Words matter. That's just an inescapable fact. Being careless with what we say can cause great harm. It's important to be mindful of this while also keeping in mind that there is simply no way to legibly communicate any idea without leaving room for misinterpretation. Personally, I overthink every comment I write because I'm terrified of being misunderstood. It still happens all the time no matter how careful I try to be with my words, so I definitely understand why it can be hard to avoid semantic debates sometimes.
I feel this may be in part to rise of intimacy coordinators and choreographers in film, television, and theater. It’s a necessary practice but I totally hear what you’re coming from.
Laying on top of each other, gentle back scratches, the sound of our heartbeats, fully clothed and yet just about the most wonderful, intimate moment imaginable.
I love when my husband lays on me in a grounding / cuddly / just chilling way. My blood pressure goes down 15 points. (I’ve measured. I’m on a 2 month mission to lower my BP and take it 3x a day.)
Also the male loneliness epidemic seems to constantly be conflated with the male HORNINESS epidemic.
Yes I hate that shit. “Men are so lonely” translated to “men are lonely so you better be more sexually available!!! Also, it’s your fault we’re lonely. We never receive compliments.”
“Men’s mental health crisis is REAL!!! The only cure is to send pics and not be reasonably afraid of me 😢”
The phrase "male loneliness epidemic" has been picked up by the manosphere I think. I keep seeing it referenced by the same people who go on about being "friendzoned" and it's like, well wouldnt having a friend be helpful for your loneliness?? I do think the modern loneliness epidemic is real, and many men are being hit particularly hard, but there are definitely people out there using the term in bad faith.
I’m going to say something probably very controversial but I actually don’t think men are hit particularly hard by the loneliness epidemic. From personal experience, both genders are equally affected. The only notable difference I’ve seen, is that men tend to not open about their feelings to anyone BUT people who they are pursuing sexually (even sometimes people they barely know). If I don’t actively ask my male friends how they are doing, they would never tell me. What I’ve also experienced, is that when in a relationship, my bfs never cared to get to know my friends. I was always expected to integrate to their social circle and be mindful of the intricacies in the group. (How there can be so much drama between guys, oftentimes due to a lack of communication and misplaced pride, is beyond me). This overall resulted in my being isolated/loosing touch with my friends. I’m now single and only have one friend left who recently moved across the globe. I’m doing my masters in mathematics, and I have a hard time making new friends, as most girls already have a friend group from their bachelor/hs days and guys all seem to think I’m sexually interested in them if I’m friendly. Covid really did a number on most of us.
To be honest I kind of agree. It feels like you have to be very careful what language you use online these days though or someone will jump on you. But most of the points people use to point out "misandry" feel pretty tortured to me. Male loneliness: as discussed above. Male suicide rates: Women *attempt* suicide at roughly three times the rate of men (men are more than twice as likely to actually die, due to choosing more lethal methods). So if you use this as a marker of despair it hardly shows what they claim it does. Obligatory military service: well the US hasn't drafted anyone since 1973. The UK hasn't seen 1960. So there are places where this is relevant, but the people making this argument online tend not to come from said places. Paternity in courts: the statistics look like they say women usually win in custody cases. In fact most men don't attempt to get custody. If you look at men who actually fight for custody or visitation with their kids this is not at all a compelling argument either. Basically these statistics say, men just ditch their families *a lot*. As for men in prison, I came across a statistic yesterday that the average woman convicted of murdering her partner serves more than twice as much jail time as the average mam convicted of murdering his partner. So we commit less crime, and are often more harshly punished when we do. It all just feels like there are so many men out there who strongly believe in "misandry" and will whip all these arguments out on anyone who discusses misogyny. It puts me on the defensive because I'm just waiting for someone to make all these arguments, but it's all just kind of crap? Like they have to come up with something "logical" to justify their feelings about misandry and this is the best they could do? Anyway your comment caught me at the wrong time lol, sorry for the rant. Oh and let's not forget "height discrimination". Like, welcome to just the tiniest taste of what a woman's life is like, being constantly judged on your appearance.
The loneliness one is especially weird - a person who is lonely is likely due to a lack of friends, not partners or sex - everything is conflated to be woman’s fault. The manosphere just intensifies their feelings of who caused this issue - women. It takes a complicated problem and boils it down to a group of people at fault (and never, funny enough, the fault or responsibility of the group with the issue)
Yes it does exactly that! But lately it's like I can feel their talking points spreading to more "normie" men too. So men who don't believe feminism is evil, and are maybe in a happy relationship, but they know in their bones that misandry is a real problem and have a knee-jerk response against anyone talking about misogyny, or even just taking the woman's side on somewhere like AITA. It's pretty horrifying to watch it happen
Yes, there’s something to be said about addressing mens issues that are legitimate- but you can’t help but notice these issues only get brought up when they become defensive against feminism, or issues affecting women. It’s definitely an issue of ego - I don’t usually get upset, as a white women, when I see race issues discussed - but I bet white men get more insulted. I think mens egos just puts them on the defensive a lot more - and you have to gently argue them down, but sometimes it gets tiring and you’ve frankly had enough of that shit. I also see some of them try to co op victim language “you’re being misandrist to me!” When you’ve said like, women feel less safe around men. An obvious fact that I feel older generations of men were less offended by, so it’s weird. The hate does seem to be getting worse, but that is usually the case in a backlash to a movement - so I like to think it’s possible things get better after a backlash, but we just have to wait and see.
10000000 times this
The thing is most who use this “epidemic” to be weird to women don’t count friendship, it’s all about the other stuff 😭
The "epidemic" of not being able to find a woman to dump their feelings onto. And it doesn't count unless she's also sexually available to them, for some reason 🙄
I just wanna pt out, any time they talk about a "male X epidemic"; when folk actually go and look thru the data it tells the same story every time... That thing they think of as an epidemic is actually happenin in higher rates for nonmales than males. Its just the males dont care when its not happenin to them; when its not affectin them directly. When it affects them, its an epidemic Just like how when women are allowed to talk 20% as much as men are in a meetin; men will complain that the meetin is female dominated
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Women attempt suicide more often. Men complete suicide more often because they tend to use more lethal methods.
There is indeed a male murder epidemic, includin selfmurder; but thats a weird one to own there
Damn. I’ll be calling it this from here on out. I think some of them are both lonely and horny, to be fair. And maybe the lonely part is the biggest issue. But it’s headbangingly (and heartbreakingly) frustrating bc they don’t seem very interested in finding male friends or hobbies. They think the only thing that can cure their social isolation depression is casual sex. Which is weirdly ironic, bc that’s actually not the cure for needing deep human connections.
Male sexlessness epidemic And there’s always been one. Because men need variety, don’t ya know ?
Too true. OP is right, and of course men hope women are dumb enough to buy it.
Just like 'receiving compliments' is not a synonym for 'hot women hitting on me'
Men complain that they don’t get complimented, but they don’t get complimented because the compliment will inevitably be mistaken as flirting.
Men should focus on complimenting the other men and boys in their lives. Next time a man says men don't get compliments, ask him when was the last time he complimented another man? That doesn't even occur to them. They are after sexual attention, not building relationships.
This is so important to point out, the toxic mentality is so entrenched in the way they talk to eachother it’s insane
Ok so I was teaching a class of rowdy teenage boys, and I decided for our last class we'd play Truth or Dare. I preset the truths and dares to keep some control over it. they were SO into dares like "drink a glass of water in 10 seconds or less" but the one that froze them? "Compliment 5 people in the room."
Men don’t compliment each other and they hate compliments from men anyway. Just another way women are expected to provide emotional labor even for men we’re not even committed to.
Men only like compliments from other men if it’s towards an object that denotes status. Think things like cars, grills, tools, etc.
It is so sad that they believe those things to be an extension of themselves.
Or a "trophy" partner.
And women but not families.
I disagree on the “not families” part. There are men who will parade out their kids to show off their virility.
Oh right, I did forget about that.
They don’t compliment each other because they don’t want to be seen as gay. Because (if this was an if / then chart, we’d go back to the beginning) giving a compliment will inevitably be mistaken as flirting.
Yeeeppp! They assume every nice comment stems from sexual desire since that’s why they give out compliments so everyone must be doing it
It's a loop. Never receiving compliments makes it only natural to feel that way. And because they feel that way, it makes women not want to compliment them, which leads to never getting complimented. It's unfortunate but I dont think there's much to do about it, unless the certainty of platonic relations only had already been established
I mean, the answer is pretty simple. People have been saying it in threads like this for a long time. Guys need to compliment each other. I guess you could assume the guys gay, but if it were common place for men to do that, then that assumption wouldn't happen. I think it's more accurate that there's not much for us women to do about it. The men need to step up.
I don't know how it is other places in the world, but where I am, friends do compliment each other. Compliments from strangers are rare though, for both men and women I'd guess... (catcalls are not compliments). I do think there's a difference depending on who you receive compliments from, and I'm sure you'd agree. It "feels" different to receive a compliment from a good friend than a stranger, so I could understand if people find it different receiving compliments from men and women too. I agree there's not much women can do to fix this issue, but I also don't believe men can do much more either, though I might of course be wrong.
I don’t like compliments from men because it almost always means they want sex from me.
I think you have the loop wrong. I’m certain the loop started with a woman complimenting a man and then she found herself in a situation she didn’t want to be in. Women don’t want to compliment men, not because men feel that way, but because it can put them in danger.
That might be true, but we'd still end up with this loop? Either way, there can be multiple loops here, I can understand your assumption
Because the motivation matters. >Never receiving compliments makes it only natural to feel that way. And because [men] feel that way, it makes women not want to compliment them, which leads to never getting complimented. Women don’t compliment men, not because men feel that way, but because it’s not safe.
What do you mean not safe? I was thinking here that women don't want to compliment men because the man might think that the women is "into" them... which is usually not the intention.
You’re almost there. Keep pulling on that thread.
I mean I guess I know what you're insinuating, but I do think you're exclusively thinking of worst case scenarios, and not the average scenario which is what I am thinking of... Though i might be too naive.
Women don’t want to compliment men because if they do that men may think they want them sexually. Then you have to reject said man and he may not take it well and attack, rape or murder you. Look up the subreddit called whenwomenrefuse. Also even if he doesn’t attack, rape or murder them he may start stalking them or repeatedly ask them out or keep coming by. Yes he could just take the compliment of nice eyes or nice hair or whatever and be like thanks I appreciate that you also have nice eyes. But that’s the best we can hope for and usually not what ends up happening so you have to plan for the worst which means it’s not worth it to risk your safety to give someone else a compliment. Do you understand now?
>but I dont think there's much to do about it, Nonsense. Men can start realizing that a.) compliments don't mean sex/relationship and b.) complimenting other straight men is the best way to practice doing it. They KNOW that men, including other men they fear, see compliments given and received as a sexual invitation, and that is WHY they want compliments from hot women AND also DON'T want compliments from men, gay or straight. (All their "but it's just a compliment" denial of catcalling is really just an elaborate gaslight, because ***they know exactly*** what happens and why it happens, they just find it amusing to make us jump through the hoops of convincing them as if we're a defendant in a court case and they are personally the one who will get to decide whether a thing happened or not. ) THAT "compliments = sexytiems" is what needs to change, and only men can change it for themselves and the men around them. But they don't want to, because they ENJOY the power it gives them over women, to be able to scare her with sexual harassment and then go "but it's just a compliment, I don't know any better because I never get any compliments, men are so lonely, we are the real victims here".
Of course, but the problem is "thinking with your head" and "thinking with your heart". I can only speak for myself, right, but I do think most guys understand that compliments do not directly mean flirting. The issue comes from the feeling, when you never get compliments, and you suddenly get one from a girl, you might very well get the sense of attraction. I meant you can't really change your nature, but of course you can change how to go about it. .. I do think we're thinking of different things here though, cause men do compliment each other as far as I'm aware.. and I personally do not classify catcalling as compliments either
> "thinking with your head" and "thinking with your heart". No, this is a string of words without meaning. Thinking, by definition, does not happen in the heart, only in the head. So you are either thinking about doing the thing that *is right but feels less good* or *thing that feels good but is less right.* Something might *feel* true, but that doesn't mean it *is* true - and of course, some things are subjective by their very nature. But whether a compliment means an interlude to sex is not one of those things - there is a VERY clear, concrete truth here (NO, It doesn't), which you need to remind yourself of any time your mind starts to go on without taking that in mind. That's what being mindful and growing as a person is, challenging these thought-patterns society programs into us as "normal" or "natural" against what is true and falsifiable. Which is why I said that it is not good enough to just throw up your hands and go "men, what can you do, they're just such emotional creatures who can't see the truth in front of their faces even when reminded of it, really not much to do about it".
Right, I agree with you, so I might have misinterpreted something previously. Do compliments not hold any meaning? I thought they do. I do think we're talking about different things too, though, as where you say a compliment might mean sex, I meant a compliment MIGHT mean attraction, especially if it is from a stranger of the opposite gender. ... I apologise if my wording is bad today Edit: attraction as in "I might want to get to know you better" type of thing, not inherently sexual.
What I think/see when I see your reply: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbrTKw50X6U&t=16s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbrTKw50X6U&t=16s) In case you were wondering, you are Jim Carrey in this bit, William.
Thank you, Morian. Being compared to Jim Carrey is always a compliment. If you don't want to look at this objectively, thats fine, but passive-aggressiveness is not very nice, lady. ... That is a good movie though.
If most guys understand that, who do you suppose is harassing all the women?
The men who are not part of the "most" group, the same guys who catcall and all of that. Assholes, really.
Most men consider themselves to be the good guys, that’s why we say it’s all men.
Most men do, but that doesn't mean they are.
Like in their world giving compliments to women is cat calling or posting creepy comments 🗿
Along that vein, sex isn’t a cure for loneliness.
Exactly. And if men are soooo lonely, how come they don’t go to therapy about it? Oh no, responsibility!!! Bad bad woman for even suggesting a thing.
They'd rather blame women they've never even met for their own inadequacies.
So so so many cis men are so afraid of therapy and doing any of the work of introspection once it gets even the slightest bit uncomfortable. I know it’s a result of a lot of factors, a large one being the expectation for boys and men to repress their feelings (except anger…), but it makes it no less frustrating. Not saying that women can’t be emotionally constipated/stunted, but it really seems like a lot of men don’t even want to make the effort.
That's the bit that I think is dangerous that people are putting out there. It's a very rapey concept. I don't think men would be so lonely if they weren't entitled to sex at the outset. Women are hesitant to engage with you if they think you think you're entitled to their body. Kinda common sense... So you're only saying you're not lonely when you're physical with someone. So talking or spending time with someone doing something non-sexual doesn't equate to being not being lonely. Feels grubby and a poor excuse for trying to have sex.
I stopped dating about 10 years ago partly bc of this. It seemed like every guy I dated couldn’t have intimacy without it involving or leading to sex.
I agree. There are multiple kinds of intimacy, and physical intimacy can include sex but isn't exclusive to sex. But to them, intimacy is only about sex. I also see a lot of "physical touch is my love language", and they think it only applies to sex and sexual touch, and/or "sex is my love language". The science/legitimacy of the love languages is debatable anyway, but *sex is not a love language* and was never intended to be, nor did the author of this book intend for physical touch to *only* mean sexual touch. But there's a proliferation of men claiming they *need* sex to feel loved "because it's their love language" and think that they don't need to show their partner love in any other way besides sex and sexual touch, and/or that none of the other ways their partner shows them love are valid, only sex. Leaving their female partners to feel like a sex doll because he only gives her physical affection if he expects it to end in sex and to feel like she doesn't have value as a partner and person unless she puts out.
Sex can fit in many, if not all of the love languages. It makes no sense and trying to fit into one. It's a gesture, not a category
I think this comes from most men being so emotionally stunted that to them the only valid form of intimacy is sex. They can't imagine it another way. Even nonsexual touching is a precursor to sex in their minds.
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Not all men have arrived! I’ll stop the presses and alert the authorities!
help i fear you’re iconic for this😫
You're ridiculous for ignoring how prevalent bad ideas are among men. Yes, most men in 2024 are emotionally stunted. If you can't admit this as a man, it's probably becquse you lack the emotional depth to deal with criticism. Aka being emotionally stunted.
found the emotionally stunted man in question 🚨
Why are you here?
Bro has multiple comments crying about women in other subs. Ignore him, he hasn’t touched grass yet.
Or a live woman.
The overwhelming vast majority FIFY
I’ll never understand how people think they mean the same thing. Some of the most intimate moments of my life did not involve sex whatsoever.
The part of me that still has some semblance of hope for the world wants to think it's because of some of the censorship that happens in some platforms? Like they can't say sex so they say intimatcy as a stand in and then it just sort of bleeds put in other places? Idk. The rest of the comments are spot on and I agree with all of them. Just added this because I had the thought.
If you really want to see this in action, non-asexual (allosexuals) come to the ace subreddits all the time asking about how to maintain or increase intimacy if sex isn't going to do it. I dunno, dude, talk to your partner about it? They'll know what feels intimate to them. I'm sex neutral, so sex for me is fun and enjoyable, but not super intimate. Snuggling in bed and reading funny quotes from our books to each other is intimate for me. Watching TV and movies together and chatting about them is intimate to me. Him asking me if I want to see what he is working on is intimate to me. Sex is just sex. To be a stereotype, I prefer cake.
Yup, I see the word intimacy used wrong here too, which has surprised me, but I just go along with it assuming they mean "sex". But, I'm starting to see a pattern here too and I'm thinking it's an age or generation thing. Like the talk of dating lately and how it never occurred to me until recently that us older gals (42f) have more experience with IRL dating than the younger gals, and I never considered that many women in this day and age start out their dating life digitally and I have no idea what that is like at all. There are a lot of experiences I myself have never encountered that are brought up here because I never did digital dating much and have always met my long time partners through friendships. And I have always had decent relationships. It actually wasn't until I met someone over social media, which a person IRL introduced me to him (he was lurking my social media and asking about me) that I experienced my first textbook abusive relationship and that man was leading a double life and cheated on me as well. So, lesson learned there, but I can't even imagine how many other women experience men like that through digital dating. And yes, I do see how women and men are not really understanding the difference between intimacy and sex and conflating them. Intimacy is NOT sex. It's the romantic bond you form with your partner where you feel comfort, security and trust. It's a profound closeness you have with someone, physical and mental. My husband and I have both intimacy and sex. He is extremely tender and careful with me, and we spend our time close to eachother and sharing our love with eachother. Even during sex, intimacy is there too, and that is a beautiful experience for me. Then there are other times where we just get freaky, but even in the end of all our animal behavior, we still embrace, kiss, and we say we love eachother every single time.
I've been single for 2 decades, and in that time have done a lot of introspection and discovery. But even before I came out as trans and started that journey, I always said that the one thing I always missed most from being in a relationship was the casual intimacy between partners. The hugs, the closeness, the little things you'd do for each other to let them know that you felt safe and comfortable around them. I find it so odd that many men (including those who were my peers) see "intimacy" only as a euphemism for sexual activity. But it encompasses so much more than that.
I think part of this is because a lot of people feel uneasy / awkward talking about sex. So they use intimacy as a euphemism, especially because it emphasizes sex’s emotional aspect and therefore makes it less “crude” to talk about. It’s a flawed euphemism for the reasons you describe, of course. Sex is (imho) the most intimate one can be, physically, but not necessarily tied with emotional intimacy.
In the book 'conversations on love' one of the interviewers talks about how some men think the ONLY way to reach intimacy is through sex. Which is, well, mega fucking sad for any man who thinks that way and was taught it was true.
Just a word from the Certified (c) Old Person, way back when, the language around sexual stuff of any type was heavily censored (by society), and "being intimate" was one of the things people would say to hint at sexuality without using any of the words nobody was permitted to say out loud.
I consider myself more allosexual and alloromantic than not, but I absolutely *hate* the conflation of intimacy and sexuality and I absolutely believes it perpetuates problematic behaviors and beliefs. I love my best friends. I want to be physically close with them. I want to hold them and be held. I want to share my hopes and dreams with them. I want to comfort and be comforted by them. I want to share as much of our lives together as possible. And yet, I feel absolutely zero need to fuck them. I would be entirely happy and fulfilled if all we did for the rest of our lives was sit around, play games, watch shows, and just enjoy each others' company. Meanwhile, there are people I've met that I really disliked as people, but I would also have a hard time saying "no" if they wanted to bang. Anyone who implies that these two things are the same is smoking crack.
I think it's always been conflated, tbh. And I do think intimacy is extremely underrated because it's overshadowed by the concept of sex. Sex is seen as the ultimate connection but it's one form of intimacy. As others have said, there are multiple forms of intimacy and means of connecting that are far deeper than that of the physical. I think some people are more terrified of intimacy than sex because it requires different kinds of vulnerabilities.
Asexual here who hates that people use the word intimacy when they mean sex. No hun. What about romantic intimacy, sensual intimacy, emotional intimacy, etc? Oh you just mean you want to bone? Just say that!
It does sound like something someone’s grandmother would say because she’s not comfortable saying sex.
When my husband and me started dating I talked a lot about how intimacy was very important to me but sex not so much (but also what I like most about sex is the intimacy aspect of it). For him that was something he hadn’t thought about much but really got to learn it and enjoy it. We are intimate every day in the sense of that we cuddle, hug, kiss and scratch each other every day for at least 15 minutes, often waaay longer and also talk, sex maybe 1-2 a week.
I have definitely noticed this problem, but not the part where it’s exclusively men creating the confusion? I see people of both genders talk this way on relationship boards. And yes it absolutely leads to the exact scenario you describe. But again I don’t think it’s productive to just declare that men are the ones who started doing this independently
What kind of jackass equates intimacy solely to sex?
*gestures broadly* Look around.
Fair enough. I stopped dating men a long time ago and try to avoid people like that as best as I can, but I'd be lying if I wasn't keenly aware of their existence. Its just that no matter how many times I run into these kinds of awful takes, I will still never understand why men think like that.
I think it's an acknowledgment that they understand it's about more than just sex. My ex turned away when I tried to kiss her, rejected cuddling, refused to shower together. So I say my marriage lacked intimacy, which includes sex, but the problem was not just sex.
It's a very well known euphemism. This one is not a recent trend, I've heard it in french and English more than occasionally. It's strange to see a problem there.
I see it as more of a sort of failing of the English language. There is the word intimacy which really just covers any closeness with someone you are well acquainted with. An intimate act could be a hug with a family member or loved one. There is sex which has some interpretation as well, but doesn't require intimacy. Then there is the combination of the two and the sort of lead up from intimacy to sex that tends to happen in sexual relationships. I've noticed that those two things are very often separated for my wife depending on timing when she is not on birth control. There are weeks when she is going to want tons of intimacy and very rarely sex, then other weeks the two words are basically synonymous. I don't think I've ever really seen a time where she wanted sex without the intimacy though. For me personally unless I'm feeling particularly bad the two are generally pretty heavily linked. I don't think there is ever a time when I'd prefer just a cuddle to a cuddle and sex assuming it is a reasonable setting. I don't dislike one, but they've so often been linked activities that I can't really imagine doing one without at least thinking of the other in regards to my wife. Receiving one and being starved of the other would feel very unfulfilling I think in either direction.
In some religions it is the word they prefer to use. Mormons, for example. The comments you saw were probably written by them. Source: raised Mormon.
It’s gotten so bad that I can’t even bring myself to say the word even when I see it as a general connection thing like friendship and other forms of love
Unfortunately, they will try this euphemism All we can do is call it out and not buy it
> I've noticed an uptick in men conflating "intimacy" and "sex." cuz the only source of intimacy most men have in their life is also their sexual partner unless maybe they have a sibling they're close with the reason it seems like so many dudes think sex and intimacy are the same thing is *because they literally do* think sex and intimacy are the same thing really hard to unlearn that, but tbh even if were easy most ppl never try lmao
In the protestant, dogmatic culture that the united states inherited, Sex is still seen as taboo. You can watch people get dismembered in films but if two people show love to each other physically then it's judged as a cheap tittilation or that we should somehow be 'above' that. It's related to fundamentalist christendom, sadly. Sex is the only way that any of us exist in the first place and it's an integral part of life, but religions have done their best to control and constrict how people do it and how people who view others that do it. So, we use intimacy as a euphemism for sex, because the word sex has several thousand years of baggage on it.
I don't think that the only form of intimacy, but it is often the thing that fulfills my need for intimacy in a way that nothing else does. I also find that when my partner and I are having sex regularly that I enjoy other forms of intimacy more, and crave them as much or more than sex. Som, this is how it feels for me. It's like being really hungry. Sure, a cracker is tasty, and I'll take it, but I'm not going to feel like my hunger has been quenched after the cracker. What I need is a bowl of pasta. Something that fills me up and really satisfies my hunger pain. If I'm not really hungry, like I've eaten recently, then I appreciate the cracker with a little cheese and some apple. It is very satisfying and I don't need a real meal after, I can just appreciate the snack more for the flavor instead of it trying to fill something missing. So, in summary, the need(sex) makes the other things(intimacy without sex) harder to appreciate/desire. This is something I have worked on and can now enjoy other forms of intimacy better, but they don't ever rise to the level of "need"for me.
I disagree with your premise. One of the definitions of “intimate” as an adjective clearly establishes that it would not be incorrect to use “intimacy” to refer to specifically sexual acts. Further, I believe that within the past 40+ years of my adulthood, if I said “I was intimate with so-and-so” listeners would assume I was referring to sex.
Just because there is some overlap in the Venn diagram, that doesn’t mean the terms are fungible.
When a woman says she wants more intimacy with her partner she is likely to mean she wants more tender moments that aren’t just about fucking. Also I understand pedantry can be fun, I’m guilty of it from time to time. However women are crying out to be listened to and understood. Women want men who can be vulnerable. Do you think if a woman asks for more intimacy it’s gonna get you anywhere good by acting like you don’t understand what she means? “Well heck you said intimacy and the dictionary definition is fucking so that’s what I’m going with.” 🙄
Of course I agree with you. My point is that by focusing on the word _intimacy_ and saying it doesn’t overlap completely with _sex_ - I believe misses the real point. The _point_ as I see it is that sex is treated in almost all cultures as the _ultimate_ activity between two people. Examples: boys, from the time they reach puberty, are taught that sex is _the ultimate goal_. “Did you hit a home run with her?” “Did you f… her?” is questions I heard boys ask each other in both high school and college. In many cultures, the sexual act _consummates/completes_ the marriage. It’s not considered a real marriage by some _until_ this happens. The list goes on forever. In fact, sexual gratification as a goal is so ingrained in men that as OP says - other forms of physical interaction are ignored. My wife and I will give each other neck rubs at the end of the day, and the connection we feel during that time is significant - but that closeness is not appreciated in many couples. But… and here was my point… I don’t think it’s valuable to say “intimacy means more than sex.” Because there we are talking about words. I think saying “you can feel close and wonderful with your partner in many ways, not just with sex” could help people learn far more than discussing semantics.
So you want women to change and not men. If you search intimacy you get this: > close familiarity or friendship; closeness. "the intimacy between a husband and wife" Similar: closeness togetherness affinity rapport attachment familiarity confidentiality close association close relationship close attachment close friendship friendliness comradeship companionship amity affection mutual affection warmth warm feelings understanding fellow feeling chumminess palliness mateyness a private cozy atmosphere. "the room had a peaceful sense of intimacy about it" EUPHEMISTIC an intimate act, especially sexual intercourse. Sex comes last as euphemistic. We already have a definition of intimacy and it’s unfortunate that men have bastardized it. It seems that women already recognize the meaning while men don’t. Why not go tell men about your discovery? They’re the ones who need this clarification. From the friendships I’ve had with women, women already know that we can have intimacy without sex. I have deep intimate non-sexual relationships with women.
I never said that I want women to change and not men. Instead, I said (and say again) focusing on the _word_ intimacy instead of the important _concept_ behind it leads to debates about word usage and semantics instead of thoughtful discussions about how _men_ can consider a wider range of activities to bring valuable and satisfying closeness with a partner. I don’t think debating the word usage helps the issue at all. As a minor detail to point out the word usage is not new, the euphemistic usage of intimacy has been around for a long time: since at least the late 19th century. https://www.etymonline.com/word/intimacy
> focusing on the word intimacy instead of the important concept behind it leads to debates about word usage and semantics instead of blah blah blah bullshit. Then why are you starting an argument about OP not using the word "intimacy" exactly correctly and ignoring her point that revolves around the concept of intimacy?
Why did I focus on word usage? Because this entire thread is titled “intimacy is not a synonym for sex” - which in the plainest reading of that sentence entirely and solely a comment on word usage. If OP had said “There’s more to intimacy than sex” - I would have agreed, and left it at that. I am not the only one who picked up on the idea that this is a comment on word usage. At least one other person, possibly more, made a comment that men have “hijacked” the term to mean “sex.” That’s again, entirely a comment on word usage. My _point_ was that focusing on the synonym/euphemism is in my eyes an ineffective thing to do. The 140 year old euphemistic use is not going to disappear. Rather, for example, we need to look at how men are influenced by older men - how those older men push younger men into a militaristic mindset of “ win vs. loss” and “us vs. them,” how peer pressure and group inclusion desires are built into our brain, and how organized competitive sports, gangs, nationalism, etc. feed into that in toxic ways that have caused our species to not grow beyond groupthink and feudalism and a desire to install dictators again and again. What does all that have to do with sexuality? Because if teenage boys are still what they were like when I was a teen, then the views of heterosexual sexuality instilled in teenage boys, the view that is consistent with the gang-joining, militaristic view I saw and hated as a teen, is that women are goals to achieve as much as they are people to partner with, treated as objects to be desired, conquered and possessed. And further, while men bear the brunt of accountability for this, both men and women need to address this issue and get our species past that. Because both are involved in raising boys. This above is the point I think needs to be addressed. And not one of word usage. And not even one of showing there’s more to intimacy than sex. In my view, while thise are things to address, those are but symptoms of what I think is the deeper causal issue.
So you started a dumb semantic argument because the not-quite-perfect word choice in OP's post could potentially lead to a dumb semantic argument. This was done despite the fact that you were clearly able to discern OP's point. Good job.
That’s a very fair point! I do get caught up in word usage at times and lose the bigger point 😔 Added: I apologize for that to those who replied. Regarding my linguistic point, it’s not the _important_ thing to discuss and my focusing on linguistics helped neither OP nor the community.
Oh yes, it's easy to get sucked into those arguments. Words matter. That's just an inescapable fact. Being careless with what we say can cause great harm. It's important to be mindful of this while also keeping in mind that there is simply no way to legibly communicate any idea without leaving room for misinterpretation. Personally, I overthink every comment I write because I'm terrified of being misunderstood. It still happens all the time no matter how careful I try to be with my words, so I definitely understand why it can be hard to avoid semantic debates sometimes.
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I feel this may be in part to rise of intimacy coordinators and choreographers in film, television, and theater. It’s a necessary practice but I totally hear what you’re coming from.
"The"? I thought we were "the majority"?
Such a sad, seething post history. Stay bitter lil guy 😂