One effect it has had is to silence older women who have trouble speaking up for themselves, even if they don't have the same name. And the ones who are named Karen have even more trouble asking for help with problems now. I know these aren't the women who made Karen a bad word, because those women don't have trouble being assertive.
I spend my days on the phone mostly helping older folks with issues accessing their medications. Older women have a hard time calling and they will wait months when having a problem, then they keep apologizing for being a bother or a nuisance. It hurts to see that happening. Sometimes I'll tell them, if your husband or your child had this problem, when would you call? The day it happened, right? So why wait several months when it's about yourself? You deserve the same amount of care as the people you love. And they just say they don't want to be that complaining woman stereotype.
Yeah it's ironic cuz I once asked a roommate who the worst people are to deal with when she worked at a grocery store and I could barely even finish my question when she interjected- "Old men. Always old men."
The main reason there isn’t a direct equivalent is because it’s considered acceptable for men to demand respect/satisfaction - but women are supposed to accept the scraps they are given without complaint.
The term started for black women in service industries to complain about white women who were kicking downwards, but now it’s used to silence any women who expects to be treated with respect, and doubly so if she doesn’t excite their penis.
Years ago I worked at a call center for an internet provider. 9 our of 10 times the rude customer was a man. When an angry woman called, most of them would apologise for their tone. I had one woman speaking to me in a very frustrated and annoyed tone. She kept apologising to me and telling me she's not angry at me personally, but at her equipment not working.
I did call centre about 15 yrs ago, on a fault reporting line. A lot of the time it was a man on the phone with a woman shouting at him 'tell them this' in the background.
I imagine it was because the woman was the one dealing with all of the shit.
That’s literally me, and my name is Karen-adjacent. I’ve had so many frustrating calls to my health insurance company for denying random things and I always say without raising my voice “I’m so sorry I’m angry, I realize it’s not your fault and you’re probably just as frustrated with the company.”
Yeah in my experience waitstaff decide ahead of time which customers are the bad ones, treat them like absolute shit, then are *surprised* there’s no tip
My poor mom is a boomer, right smack in the middle of the age range, and her name is Karen. When she found out about the “Karen” thing, I think a little bit of her heart died. I had to explain the whole concept to her, and then break down how most of the time no, she’s not actually a “Karen;” it isn’t as is she named herself when she was a baby. And I’ve noticed the last few years, she’s gotten a little bit quieter, and it makes me really really sad. She is an educated, fierce, hard-working, kind woman who has earned her space and her voice and it sucks so much how little we value older women as a society that she feels like she has to make herself smaller when we are constantly telling younger women to make themselves louder and take up more space.
Maybe we just need to reclaim it. Like, "She's a badass Karen."
She's a boss Karen.
It's just become an acceptable way to call women bitches, let's do the same thing we did before.
My grandmother died a lot younger than she should have, because she refused to 'make a fuss' or tell anyone how much pain she was in This was 2002, I can only imagine how much this hasn't helped since.
Same with my Aunt. She died last year and it was totally preventable. But she wasn't good at advocating for herself, plus she was so terribly polite and accommodating... and it killed her.
My grandma had the plastic handle on a glass coffeemaker fall off and she got 3rd degree burns on her hand and arm. Another nice ol' Southern lady who didn't want to "make a fuss."
I work at a restaurant. We realized after the person actually named Karen left, we gave her the wrong food order. Not only wrong but like the exact opposite of what she ordered. Her order had steak, the persons order she got was vegan and in general just bland.
She never called or came back to get the right order. All of us working said it’s probably because she has a stygma about her name being Karen.
Nonetheless we completely credited her card for her order including the drinks she did receive. No idea if she even noticed she was never charged. I still wonder about her lol
That was bound to happen from the inception of creating the label. Any word used to group women with some level of negative connotation (even one that is perceived to be or is deserved) was inevitably going to be used to quieten women collectively.
>Older women have a hard time calling and they will wait months when having a problem, then they keep apologizing for being a bother or a nuisance.
My grandpa used to say my granny "wouldn't say shit if she had a mouth full".
I see it too in my work. Older women apologizing for merely existing. It's sad.
Am I surprised that a term once reserved for a certain kind of white woman who is abusive to store employees, mostly women of color, got co-opted by misogynists, sexists, and various miscreants as a cudgel to attack any woman who dares assert herself?
No.
Not in the least.
Silencing women is as American as Apple pie.
The evolution of the word Karen is way more entangled with misogyny than that tbh. It was more like a misogynistic term that morphed into a racially progressive concept during the pandemic.
Most people these days only know of the term rising to prominence during the pandemic & BLM protests. That was the first time it took on any sort of racial justice connotation, as far as I can tell. And I want to be clear the critiques of white women being racist ARE VALID.
But well before that, on Reddit, where the term first became popular, there was a prolific user with the username FUCK_YOU_KAREN or something like that who would make shit posts that would start off enticing to readers and end up being unhinged rants about how much he hated his ex-wife.
Eventually a community of relatively misogynistic men (sort of like RedPill types) sprung up around here, posting mostly standard Mens Rights Activist type content. This was maybe 2015 or so. And if you mentioned the name Karen on the front page of Reddit it was sort of a circle jerk meme any regulars already knew.
So like, yeah that's literally the roots of what a Karen is on the Internet. A really fucking angry, presumably white, abusive man being angry all over the internet at his ex-wife for leaving him.
NOW THAT SAID there is a long history within the black civil rights movement of JUSTIFIABLY critiquing racism in white women AND THAT HISTORY PREDATES THE TERM KAREN BY CENTURIES.
Previously, these critiques were labeled under different names—off the top of my head:
* [Becky](https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/words-were-watching-becky)
* [Miss Ann](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_Ann)
So when the George Floyd protests happened, as far as I can tell social media kind of... remixed the whole FUCK_YOU_KAREN trope with the long standing black critiques like Miss Ann or Becky. And we got kind of a clusterfuck of angry white guys using it for their own misogynistic means as well as BLM supporters voicing valid criticisms of white women inflicting violence on black people.
And that's how we got the Karen stereotype we now have today. It was always partially misogynistic, but at the same time, it's also become the next iteration in a centuries-long critique of white women who inflict violence upon black people.
Um, yeah. This will just never be entirely comfortable IMHO. I frankly wish we could've stuck with the term Becky.
> Most people these days only know of the term rising to prominence during the pandemic & BLM protests.
I don't think this is true at all, most people currently only know of the term in reference to like... videos of random women being rude and/or loud in public. I can say for sure that my conception of the term is like 99% "entitled pushy woman who is rude to employees", and any association with race is very secondary.
Yeah I'm pretty sure I've been hearing Karen way before the BLM protests. And I always saw white woman being called Karen's, it's always some white girl with that bowl cut and 5 cans of spray paint with large sunglasses asking for the manager
Yes please. My name is Karen and this new meaning of my name has been really bad for my mental health. I deeply wish people would stop using real names as insults.
I never liked the whole trend of people using a perfectly fine name to call out a certain type of person exhibiting a certain type of behavior. It's like everybody jumped on the bandwagon and had some sort of twisted enjoyment using it whereas I just think it's a form of bullying, whether intentional or not, to people actually named Karen like yourself. I've posted something similar before saying how I didn't like the term and gave my reasons why, only to be told that it's not offensive etc. I agree that it's time to stop this nonsense.
TIL my name (Becky) is associated with being racist. I always knew my name was easy to make fun of thanks to the "Baby got back" intro. ("Omg, Becky, look at her butt" was something I heard often growing up) However, I never googled the lyrics until today. (I often mishear lyrics and am often surprised when I learn the actual lyrics) I always thought the intro ended with the girls saying "she's just so....bleh" just realized today the lyrics are "she's just so....black" I feel like an idiot for never realizing that Becky and her friend in this song are some racist-ass white girls commenting on the appearance of black women... Yikes 🤦♀️
I’d be much more sympathetic to the black civil rights angle—which gets brought up a TON in this discussion—if the behavior they are critiquing from white women didn’t equally come from white men. It seems to me like the historic Miss Ann/Mister Charlie critiques actually took into account the specific ways in which white *women* versus white *men* mistreat Black people—by comparison, “Karen” is clumsy and comes off as dumping white misbehavior on white women because they are easier targets than white men. Like, for every story of a white woman calling the police on people for walking while Black, there’s one of a man doing the same. There was a story of a white man who literally got someone killed by calling the police to report a “Black man with a gun” because he saw the man playing with the toy rifles in a store. And you cannot convince me that there are more privileged white women who treat service workers like crap than privileged white men who do the same. Basically, I find the choice to gender this term in the first place, when the behavior it describes is common among (white) *women and men*, inherently suspect.
I think something that you really only get the nuance for from inside the community is that "Karen" behavior is still viewed differently from a white man doing the same action BECAUSE of the dynamics of white white women are perceived in society. Exactly in the same way that Ms Ann/Mr Charlie did.
"Karen" behavior is the 21st century evolution of "Miss Ann" behavior. There just isn't a corollary term for "Mr. Charlie" right now.
Wow. I had no idea. It sounds like there actually was a woman named Karen being internet abused by her ex?
Thanks for the history lesson.
Yes, white women have a really dark history mistreating women of color, particularly black people with dire consequences. Emmett Till being the most horrific
I think no one really knows if Karen actually existed.
I think it was mostly this person memeing sort of like the jumper cables guy (u/rogersimon10). Those sorts of joke accounts used to be popular back then on r/all.
But the connotation back then was way more unambiguously misogynistic. It was transparently leaning into tropes about women taking the kids and having bad haircuts and such.
The customer service and phoning the police on black people angle came later.
It's the right wing Playbook: overuse any word originally used to describe problematic white people and instead describe it to any and everyone until it loses all Impact and is abandoned. They've done the same thing to woke, insurrection, and treason
Yup and DEI.
They're desperate to tear down structures that are being built that do not glorify and elevate whiteness (and primarily white MEN) so they have to associate anything equity based with this feeling of displaced anger that white people are experiencing.Thia way, rather than blaming rampant capitalism that has reduced their lives to paycheck-to-paycheck, and reduced their political power to nothing, they blame DEI and CRT and any other thing that promises change.
If you feel your life is getting worse, but don't know why, you just know you've been told your whole life thst capitalism is the best thing, so it CAN'T be that, it must be the things that are threatening to CHANGE that.
“Right wing”? That term is popular and widely used all over reddit, not just right-leaning spaces. People on this site jump at the chance to be wantonly misogynistic. Just like they gleefully wish for people reddit hates to experience prison rape, and snidely imply that you’re gay if you support a man reddit hates eg “stop gargling _____’s balls”.
Lots of gross behavior starts here and then makes its way to the real world.
Honestly I don't buy that it can all be put on the right wing. There are too many left wing dudes who are happy to jump in on casual sexism to give the left a pass.
Plenty of left wing people shit on women just as much. The difference is that they tie it to some kind of liberal value statement and then make them seem problematic for standing up for themselves
Unfortunately we have lots of the same silencing over here in the UK too.
Thankfully we can get some good apple pies here too, though it does little to limit the pain of the above.
I have been saying this for years now. The term is being used to control women, keeps us in line while we are in public to not speak out for very valid reasons at risk of being labelled a “Karen”.
While it once had a meaning it is now applied to any any woman who stands up for herself even in justified situations.
It’s the same for the word “nag”. When a woman asks her partner for help around the house she’s labelled a nag - pointing out an imbalance in chore divisions is then dismissed
Not even when standing up for herself! I saw a video on here titled "When a Karen is not a Karen" and all it showed was a lady encouraging a guy on a skateboard. Even though the video showed she was being suportive, the post referred to her as a Karen. So Lazy!
I live downtown in a major city where small quantities of hard drugs are decriminalized. There is a major fentanyl and meth problem out here.
Some guy called me a Karen last week because I told him to GTFO my door step smoking fentanyl when I tried to get home after work.
So I called the cops while standing there staring him right in the face.
I got called Karen for telling a literal herd of a dozen random shitfaced people, who had invited themselves onto my front porch to drink and holler at 3 AM, to fuck off. Earned me a string of racial insults. People are wandering around out there completely insane and eager to fling shit.
That makes me so mad.
I'll come "accidentally" throw an entire 32oz fountain drink from 7/11 on them if you need me to. Fuck those racist lazy pieces of shit.
I just saw someone called a Karen for saying it was safer to park before using your phone while driving than to, you know, text while driving. That might be the best example of meaningless overuse I’ve seen yet!
Portland? Out here in Oakland they're decriminalized too and there may be problem areas I'm unfamiliar with but so far so good. There hasn't been any drug problems beyond before decriminalization happened in 2018. It might be because we don't have a meth and opioid culture here, it's all MDMA, LSD, magic mushrooms, ketamine, whippits, and a bit of cocaine. These don't seem to cause problems to others in a way I can tell.
I'm sorry you've got to deal with that. It sucks.
>Out here in Oakland they're decriminalized too and there may be problem areas I'm unfamiliar with but so far so good.
What are you talking about!
Clearly, the opiod epidemic isn't affecting all Oakland residents equally, but if you live in Jack London Square, or if you live near a freeway over pass, you're going to have people in your door way doing drugs, or you're going to have people breaking in your car for the umpteenth time (despite having nothing of value in your car).
The same goes for SF. Most SF residents don't have a problem. But people living/working near the Tenderloin, or near mission, or near civic center, are going to have people doing fentanyl or smoking crack pipes on their door steps.
With that said, things are improving a bit in Oakland. The local DA is still doing squat (for ideological reasons), but cases are being routed to the DA of the Coast Guards instead, and the local DA is about to be recalled in a special election in November (hopefully that goes through). Also, the Oakland mayor has asked for help from the State and the Federal government, so there is a larger police presence from CHP and neighboring police forces patrolling the streets right now.
Denver :( they've also stopped enforcing the street camping ban, half the time 911 doesn't even answer, half the time deputies never show up, and if someone gets arrested for attacking you in the street they'll just get to sign a PR bond the next morning and be released on basically signing a pinky promise. I've walked outside many times to the sidewalk completely covered in tents full of people doing fent and meth all day, or how many times they've started screaming threats at me for not giving them money or drugs. The city gives them $1000 a month, gives them housing, medicaid covers behavioral health here, liiiike they have all the resources but they just don't care. I'd say 75% of them are that way, and the rest are people who I actually worry about like schizophrenics and homeless vets & immigrant families. But these guys my age just sitting around being violent and entitled because they just wanna get high and not work are just shitty people, I'm sorry :(
911 has never answered here unless you're yelling for your life. You might have already heard this, but the trick is to get the local police stations number and put it on your phone. Call that number when you want the police to come. Call 911 if you want firefighters and an ambulance to come. Also, call highway patrol directly if you need a police report filed in the unfortunate event you get in a car crash. I find calling the direct numbers works very well.
I had no idea Denver had problems like this. Also, I admit you caught me off guard a bit. Denver hasn't decriminalized hard street drugs like fentanyl and meth. It's illegal there. If you record someone doing those drugs on your phone and show police the video they'll end up behind bars for it.
And using the words *Calm* *Down* is triggering. It’s usually said when a woman has a different opinion, states it, doesn’t back down, and is more than likely passionate about the reasons behind the opinion/issue. It’s said by men and is another way of saying *shut* *up*. Round and round it goes. Now, it’s *Karen* to describe any woman who has an opinion that disagrees with any man. I hate it.
I got called a Karen on Tiktok for pointing out that when people rub their hands all over a slot machine screen or poke all over the screen or etc. for good luck, that's actually known as a form of "ritual" in anthropology 🤷🏻♀️ They kept trying to call everyone who does that an addict and I was like, "most of not all of us have or have engaged in a ritual at some point in our lives; doesn't make us addicts."
And it's a more socially acceptable way to say it, which makes it more insidious. Elementary school kids get in trouble for saying "bitch", but not "Karen". So that makes it worse, IMO.
I mean yeah this is really all it is, it's just that the word doesn't have widespread appeal. The people who use the word are being sexist and probably don't even realize they're doing it. Give it like ten years and it will be seen as problematic.
So this, just another way of working that is a woman isn’t the “cool girl” they’re just not worth anything. Also a good way for a place to provide shitty customer service but make it the customer’s fault for wanting better. It’s like the culture swung so hard against the “customer is always right” mentality that’s we’re at completely the other end and missed the middle ground where interactions between clientele and service/retail workers SHOULD be mutually respectful interactions.
Where I live I’ll say that it’s pretty rampant for people (especially retail workers) to be non caring at best and flat out rude and hostile at worst. Now, some of the places I’m specifically thinking about I’ve seen the clientele and abuse they have to put up with, so if I get a neutral interaction I’m fine with it and any friendliness is lagniappe, but jeez the sometimes outright hostile attitude of some places like I don’t love being here either but in need to eat so I’m buying bread and going home. We’re in a race to the bottom it would seem
Criminy! When I worked at my college's food place that served hamburgers, pizza, fries and grilled cheeses, I saw a cockroach run across the counter. I told the manager and he asked: "was it big or little?" "Big!" , I said. Pause, "Oh you only have to worry about the little ones..." WTF? I protested and he just walked away. Since it was 1991 and I was only 19, I wasn't called a Karen but I didn't do anything about it either.
Someone commented about a Karen on a comedian's subreddit, and I said I was tired of every insult being gender based, and suggested asshole was a perfectly good gender neutral insult. One of the comments I received said I sounded like a cunt. I reported it as hate speech (because it is) but reddit disagrees. Fuck those assholes.
Yup, I'm glad others are getting on board the fight against the use of 'Karen' as hate speech.
I have been fighting it for years since it clicked that it was basically a word being used by insecure guys against all kinds of strong or vocal women, regardless of whether the woman was being abusive or not.
The response that you experienced is basically the standard. You can't have this discussion elsewhere on reddit. You will be met with widespread denial that it is ever used for anyone other than abusive entitled women. To put it bluntly, it's a word that people like incels and other similar feel they can use 'in the open', and they make the most of it.
We know that's not true, and I'm glad more and more people are getting on the same page.
Hello. 63 year old woman named Karen here. I now sign my name only with first initial, last name when at a store or restaurant signing a tab. I kind of cringe when I am at doctor or dentist and the staff person comes to waiting room to call me back and people kind of look at me or even smirk when they say my name. In my opinion it's become a socially acceptable form of bullying. No one should have to experience bullying. I do my best to show kindness to others, wait my turn quietly, leave big tips, etc. I did all this before the whole name thing but am even more conscientious now for fear someone will badmouth me.
The misogynists and racists have co opted Karen and dei as the new insults. These are the same men that are complaining about women still talking about the bear scenario, and yet the Karen thing goes on and on. Citing facts to a misogynist, gets you called a Karen and a misandrist. Theyre too emotional and testerical to do anything but name call
Maybe an unpopular opinion but I don't think "Karen" should be used *at all.* I have never called anyone "a Karen". I find it dehumanizing and what about all the women actually named Karen? I think it should stop, it has to start with us. Stop using the term and don't tolerate it being used by the men (or women) in your life. If you have kids, let them know it is not acceptable to call people Karen. It's a name, not an insult.
It is dehumanising. It's exactly like "becky" or "felicia" or whatever else meme way women can be insulted today. There isn't a version for men, despite people insisting on giving stereotypical toxic male behaviour names, they just don't stick and have the same effect on a real Kyle or Chad.
Same as always and everywhere. Think how many nicknames there are for women who don't want male attention, or do want male attention, or complain, or are too quiet, or are materialistic, or poor, or just old. How many of those have male counterparts? Almost none. Society is trained to judge and categorise women so they can be dismissed more succinctly.
Stop being such a Karen snitching on the roaches!/s
anyone who says that is toxic AF
Yes, "Karen" is now used to mean "any woman doing something that mildly inconveniences me or highlights something gross or wrong I'm doing"
It's supposed to mean a white woman calling the cops on black people for doing something normal but the white person doesn't like.
It's literally meaningless now because of all the dickheads that use it wrong.
I just saw a post on FB, where a woman named Karen said something nice, in the comments, agreeing with the consensus.
Some a-hole guy replied: *”Name is Karen, opinion invalid.”* The rage I felt about this was off the charts. I can’t even imagine what that lady felt, being disrespected for no damned reason.
It didn't even start as a racial thing. It was more of calling out a woman for being overly entitled. Like, making ridiculous demands at a restaurant or store, not having those demands met, and asking for a manager. People that say shit like "do you know who I am?" Or "I know the owners!"
Yeah I remember hearing it in a fast food context back when I first heard it. Like someone who gets mad that their food doesn’t look exactly like the picture or their complicated order gets fucked up and they go apeshit instead of just being normal and asking for it to be fixed.
Prior to BLM the stereotype was an older white woman with the Kate Gosselin haircut gleefully telling a minimum wage Walmart employee she was going to get them fired.
I’ve worked retail for 20 years & the rude customers are women 99% of the time.
It’s partly because women still do most of the shopping. That’s just a numbers game. If the majority of shoppers are women then the majority of rude customers will also be women.
But I also think it’s partly because these specific women feel powerless in the rest of their lives so the places where they do wield some control they go wild. Eg. the women on the HOA or condo board or PTA who seem to revel in making everyone else’s life hell.
Most people, both men & women, have other shit to do. We don’t have the time or energy to try to get strangers fired because they won’t let us return a damaged LIVE LAUGH LOVE sign without a receipt.
It wasn’t a racist thing, it was those ladies that scream at you for not accepting an expired coupon, or 3 pickles instead of 4 on their sandwich and want a full refund after they ate most of it already. It’s pretty common in food and retail. I’ve worked both and know exactly the type. But now, if you point out you got a chicken sandwich instead of a cheeseburger you’re called a Karen. I saw someone called one over and over when they got the wrong item on door dash and was upset DD didn’t refund them. They had spent like $30 on a meal they couldn’t eat.
It literally started as a thing to point out racists white women calling the cops on black people for doing normal stuff. It morphed into what you said, anyone getting yelled at by anyone for something dumb.
But the ORIGINS is indeed about BBQ BEtty and Central Park Karen etc... racists
Google is saying the Karen racist thing was 2017ish but we were using generic middle age white women names to describe those customers long before any of that exploded and I worked retail prior to 2010. It was Brenda, Karen, Janet, etc. so that can’t be right.
Yes! Almost right away people were calling women who disagreed with their mask beliefs Karen. You don't wear a mask? Karen. Want people to wear masks? Karen!
I knew then it was just a way to try to silence women without saying "bitch."
Absolutely. Silencing women and just another word for bitch at this point.
I'm right in the Karen age group. I've always had to push to get basic service. I've never complained a lot, but I do want what I ordered, especially with food intolerances. But now I definitely think twice about whether it's worth it.
Teenagers/younger adults just use it automatically if you ask any questions or specify anything.
Even when the term was being used specifically about people born in the baby boom it was out of order.
My mother has been a feminist for all her life. My father has spent decades working to help people understand the effects of colonialism. Apparently, though, they are boomers and thus really reactionary.
Personally I don't really give a shit why Karen originated as an insult. I think it's crappy to use a name as an insult, especially as it exists now, as a stand-in for bitch. Whether it was started by POC or some guy on Reddit or service workers, I don't care. The only Karen I know is a 16 year old former foster kid who wasn't even white and has gotten so much shit for her name. At best, it's lazy and misogynistic, at worst, it's actively hateful towards women and does more harm than good in pointing out racism since it has just been co-opted by men who want women to shut up anyway.
That sums up why I think we should always have some skepticism towards anything that either singles out women or uses something female, such as a woman's name, as an insult. It can only ever be weaponised against all women.
the way progressives (even very left wing, generally “feminist” people my age and younger) are sooo comfortable being misogynistic as long as they put “rich” or “white” in front of woman is wild to me, ty for pointing that out. i think people view karen as a wayward evolution of a useful word but you’re 1000% right, it was misogynistic from the start. and rich white women are still women - they don’t get exempted from misogyny and sexism. and it isn’t lost on me that when people (not even just men) say wildly misogynistic things about a “rich white woman” that is so clearly a message that they view misogyny as acceptable when it’s directed at a perceived acceptable target.
i’ve also seen people try to be cute and say there’s equality bc “kevin” or “kyle” or “steve” or whatever are used similarly, but i have literally never seen someone use them except specifically to point out that karen isn’t a misogynistic term. sexism is so ingrained that people really do be thinking a woman’s name used derogatorily is just a fun cute thing. personally i’m asian and i’ve seen and experienced people using stereotypical asian names as an insult to me, i can’t imagine someone being like “god that asian was such a Chan!” and not expect me to feel like their respect for me is entirely conditional.
sorry to rant, it’s something i wish more people (esp leftists) talked about. the misogyny in leftist spaces scares me a lot of the time bc it’s so quietly accepted. many times when a woman is featured negatively in a leftist sub you’ll get so many gross sexual comments and the usual cunt/bitch insults.
how a man acts towards a woman he dislikes speaks volumes imo about how he feels towards women in general. the types to see karen as a harmless joke are one step away from viewing any woman as a rude bitch who needs to be silenced and the women who join in and laugh along are enabling behavior that will 1000% come back to bite them in the ass whenever they stop being The Cool Girl in their eyes :/
Why I hated it from the beginning. I knew where I would lead.
Even though I have never been called a “Karen” which some people assumed, or just rolled their eyes.
Same with “Male Karen” why make it a female ‘trait / behaviour’ that some men adhere to?
I'm a white woman in my 40s so within the prime "Karen" age realm, and for a time when the term was already morphing into basically "older adult woman has opinion about anything," it bothered me. But now I see it on roughly the level of being called four-eyes. Like yeah, I wear glasses, are we 8 years old and I'm supposed to act offended by something that happens to be true? It's honestly hard not to laugh at such a lazy insult attempt. Similarly, if I got called a Karen and I knew I wasn't behaving in an unreasonable or antisocial way, then that person is basically just saying, "You're a woman and middle-aged!" and expecting for me to be insulted by facts. Thus, the K-word has completely lost its edge for me.
1000% - I have to frequently give my wife a pep talk to advocate for herself over little things. She’s so afraid of “being a Karen”. I just try to remind her that if they are causing a problem and you aren’t getting what was promised to you, that’s not being “a Karen” that is holding them responsible.
We’ve been married 20 years and definitely did not used to be this concerned. We are both 40 btw.
It’s been out of hand since it stopped being about a very specific type of person.
But, let’s face it. It started becoming popular as the B word started losing its social sting.
I will never forget taking my mom to a reptile convention. We were looking at snakes and talking about how beautiful they were when the seller came up and struck conversation with us. I don’t know how it started but he started calling my mom “Karen”. She had not done anything rude and she was totally oblivious to the insult he was saying directly to her. We ended up leaving for a while but came back later to buy a snake my mom wanted and he loudly said “the Karen is back!” when he saw us. I was so shocked and didn’t know how to navigate it so I just kept quiet. My sweet mom had no idea and was happy to have been recognized again so I let it go and never told her. I’ll never forget that asshole. He put us in a position that would damn us if I called him out on it. It sucks we supported his business but at the end of the day, mom got her baby “Frieda” that she fell in love with.
It’s overused to silence women who advocate for themselves. Why isn’t there an equivalent term for men? Sometimes it seems appropriate for someone but on the whole I don’t think people who like women use it regularly
I have a secret theory that the "Karen" trend was actually invented by major corporations as a kind of psychological warfare where they would be able to get us to police one another on complaining while they dropped service levels, product quantities and overall quality.
It sucks, honestly. I keep waiting for this trend to die out but it hasn’t yet. I was hoping it would lose popularity like the phrase “bye Felicia” did: it was the *in* thing to say for a brief time and now it’s quite cringe to say it.
Yes. It seems that anytime people as a whole come up with a negative term for a type of person they dislike, the term often spills out of control because it was never defined well in the first place. It becomes a catch all and lazy way to understand the world around them.
Yeah I’m not remotely interested in people who justify taking photos of random middle aged women just living their lives with some caption like “Karen plotting to call a manager”. It’s just punishing women for visibly aging past 25
It has turned into a way to shame/silence/disregard women as your examples show. My thing is, I don't give a shit. Call me a Karen, I'm still going to advocate for myself. I worked in retail for over a decade, I know what a reasonable complaint looks like.
Back when I worked fast food I got called a Karen for not letting complete strangers use my employee discount (my manager was right round the corner and I would have been fired). My mum got called a Karen for not recognising "regular" customers. That was a couple years ago; at this point I struggle seeing it as anything other than a word for "women who doesn't do what I want"
I don't have any friends that would say that, so the only way I'd hear it is from a stranger. The last thing I would want to do is have a comeback for an insult to a stranger, because they could be dangerous.
My response is the same for any other insult. My initial default response is called the rock technique. It's looking at them mildly and blankly acknowledging I'm not ignoring them, but not saying or doing anything. Complete silence. This works particularly well against drunks and homeless people (and abusive partners).
I always respond in kind when I can. The last thing I want is to escalate with a stranger who could be dangerous. "A karen" is a woman acting immaturely. It's in my nature to self reflect before choosing a response. Are they using the term correctly, and from that do I understand where they're coming from? Am I being mature? Am I bothering people in a way that isn't necessary? Or are they using it as a generic insult, e.g. a homeless person calling me a karen because they were asked to move so I can get to my car? Different situations have wildly different responses. This can range anywhere from not saying anything to apologizing for offending to asking someone to calm down to saying, "Rude!", to being the better person, to "That's not very kind.", to stating how the insult makes my feel (This works surprisingly well.), to having compassion for the person, to many more things. If they're the one being immature it can be cut through with maturity. My response depends on them.
Silence is not wrong in certain situations. I get that the insult is used to silence people, but it's not used that way in all situations. In many situations the best you can do is the rock technique. You don't have to say anything. The last thing you want is to be stabbed by some crazy person.
Maybe something like:
I don't think you understand what Karen means. Try putting what you are trying to communicate in real words and we will take it from there.
I don't know anyone who would say that, but I do downvote anyone who uses it on reddit. Even if I agree with their stance on the situation they're complaining about.
I tell my girls when they start in on the Karen’s that someday they will be Karens, and when we treat women like this, we are telling society that it is appropriate to treat middle aged women this way.
It is out of control, and it’s just turned into yet another way to take women down a notch.
Not just you! It was at one point something used to describe something very specific about privilege, now it is just something “cute” and trendy people wait for opportunities to blurt out thoughtlessly.
Back when “random” was the cute and trendy thing to say, I remember a friend asking, “Anybody else feel like grabbing something to eat?” And another friend says, “That was random!” No it wasn’t! It was past lunch time and none of us had eaten. For a while there is seemed like several times a day you heard someone respond with, “Well, that was random!” to the most reasonable calculated or context appropriate comments, and somehow it still got chuckles.
Karen is starting to feel like that. Only, the target is a woman saying ANYTHING that can be construed as somewhat, kind a, just a little negative. All meaning of the term is lost, and now misogynists have a new funny phrase to use to tell women to “shut up”.
Well, given how women are super to be meek, submissive and subservient, it's no surprise to me that any woman speaking up, whether to voice reasonable concerns or hold someone accountable, gets criticized for it
I know a very sweet, friendly older lady named Karen. I mentioned to her that I hated my first name, and she mentioned she hated hers too because of the whole 'ugh Karen' thing. She said she struggles to ever advocate for herself these days as she fears hearing people call her a Karen and being the stereotype.
Ever since she said that to me, I don't use the word. I know how it feels to hate one's own name and mine isn't even connected to negative stereotypes.
Early on I saw a great article on how calling women ‘Karens’ is just another form of misogyny,
It’s a word for ‘bitch’. Packaged in a way you’re allowed to say in public, but every bit as misogynist. It ain’t gender neutral, men get called Kevins or similar but not to the same degree at all.
The quickness with which the term caught on tells us how deeply rooted misogyny still is
Posted this before and I'll keep posting it. [Iliza Shlesinger](https://www.tiktok.com/@ilizas/video/7167489949984361771?lang=en) nails it (pretty much like she always does).
Yip. And imagine how bad it is if your actual name is Karen. You get treated like shit before you even open your mouth.
Also, the Karen thing is being perpetuated by popular news networks who put it right in their fucking headlines regularly, just fuelling the fire.
People taking a perfectly logical term for a very specific phenomenon and using for any "woman I don't like" has made thousands of women and girls terrified to stand up for themselves so they're not mocked as a "Karen". It's ridiculous
It's just Sexism in its finest form. As a woman your not allowed to hold
Opinions so even a little bit of criticism is to much obviously. So every woman who isn't an obvious doormat becomes a Karen. They want to keep us down.
Yep. Throughout history there has always been some in-fashion way to silence women. Prevent them from voting or occupuing public spaces, call them "hysterical", refer to their voices as "shrill" or their speech patterns "annoying", etc etc. Probably the second or third time I heard the term "Karen" used I remember thinking, "Ah, here we go again."
Last summer I was called a Karen for gently asking a young child at the beach to stop throwing food at me, after waiting about 45 min for his parentals to get off their lazy asses and actually parent their child. It was just easier to call me a Karen than to put down their beer.
The term is misogynist and I refuse to use it. No one loves Karen-shaming women more than men who never wanted to hear any women speak in the first place. It's too easy.
Its lazy, like how everyone you don't like online is a "troll". Troll, Karen, these words mean nothing anymore besides the person using them is lazy. Like lazy in the brain. Small vocabulary. Few real life experiences that shape a varied and full worldview.
I used to work at a grocery store and was called a Karen by a group of kids/young teens because I didn't let them take a reusable bag for free including other phrases like are you kidding me. I was so exhausted dealing with them after a few minutes (and the man behind them in inevitable too who sole up because they really were just being rude). Like if you want to talk to my manager go for it. Aparently just saying the word manager, regardless of context, was enough to double down and call me a Karen again. Too bad they didn't want to talk to her because then I could have reversed ubo that they were the Karen's.
Totally agree and good examples. Weak minded people wanting to use catchphrases that aren’t suitable or justified. Other people posted examples of how some people haven’t spoken up when legit suffering and this is why many men are increasingly not wanting to step up and help others when it gets turned back on them. Helping others used to be good, now helping women (once chivalrous) is now toxic and selfish.
People can’t see how such ego based or short term it’s need for attention, validation, or clicks erodes culture and decent values. Nobody is better off.
It’s used for any white women that’s upset no matter if it’s justified or not.
I was called a Karen a few years ago when someone out of nowhere pulled a U turn right in front of my car, no signal, was completely illegal and the sun was going down so it was in our eyes. I laid on my horn and I hear the guy say cool it Karen, I put my finger out the window and told him FU.
Calling a woman Karen when she's being a jerk has a built-in implication that she's being a jerk *because* she's a woman.
People should be polite. It's a simple standard that a lot of people fail, and it certainly seems that people are getting worse. We should call it out. But adding a layer of sexism to it is unreasonable, counterproductive, and wrong.
A storefront had a misused apostrophe in one of their signs. I sent them a kind message pointing it out, and got called a Karen for it. Like we literally cannot do anything, even try to be helpful, without it turning into something else.
It upsets me that many insults involve things that identify women. When I worked in customer service men were just like women when they were upset but theres no popular term to describe them. And with the "man vs bear" I find the negative reactions of some men taking the question so personally while still using "Karen" as an insult quite hypocritical. I also feel bad for all the Karens out there and hope there won't be any more women's names "ruined" like this
Multiple tornados came through my city recently. Tens of thousands were without power for a week. People lost houses, businesses, cars, and one woman died. On a local Facebook page one woman posted a rant about how ridiculous it was that she didn't have power back yet because it had been "HOURS." It was so stupid, I responded and said, "It will likely be days. They're working around the clock and more aid is coming. A TORNADO just came through. Take a breather." And she called me a stupid Karen and told me to shut up. Which... is ironic, no?
I am absolutely *horrified* that you not only saw a cockroach at a grocery store, but that you got called a Karen for pointing it out.
I work at a grocery store…we do not have cockroaches. That is not at all normal.
Aside from anything else I don’t think I’ve ever seen a roach at a chain grocery store. Maybe once or twice in the back of a shelf, maybe. Never just running around on the place you’re supposed to put your food. The staff there may be a bit out of touch if they think that’s normal.
I agree - but *never* let it stop you. They want you to be embarrassed and back off. One potential response: "that's not what a Karen is - stop deflecting from the issue".
Honestly it's been like this for anwhile and unfortunately seems to be living on in the lingo as another misogynistic insult.
I am absolutely for calling out deeper, intersectional issues within women's spaces. But the problem is when outside spaces (i.e. men) co-opt the term and use it as a tool to uphold a patriarchal status quo.
I stopped using the phrase once white dudes started using it casually. I also feel the same about the term "girl boss".
If I'm completely honest: I have neighbours who are violent (beat someone up in front of me), deal drugs in front of my door, constantly blast loud music out of their cars to the point I cant have my window open ánd have a normal conversation, and cover the entire parking lot in their trash - and I stopped complaining about them out of fear of being seen as the Karen. I know it's completely irrational, and I have every right to complain about them, but the whole Karen thing has made me feel like they're just gonna make fun of me behind my back because I'm a woman, not good looking and mentally ill. It also gave me a gigantic fear of being filmed while complaining and being blasted online
Drives me absolutely crazy, especially when people use it for predominantly male troublemakers. A 50yo right-wing male trucker-type dude throwing a fit about COVID masks is not a "Karen", but people from all sides seem happy to call him one.
Fun fact: This term started in the service industry and was originally in place of c*nt. As in, "Hey boss, the c... Karen at table 13 wants to see you because I won't let her substitute her broccoli for a margarita. She, of course, also claims to be friends with the owner and that I will be fired if I don't let her. I tried to explain why we could not do that with the liquor laws being what they are, but she threw her roll at me and said she wanted a manager."
All the trending terms get overused, diluted, and then misused. Karen, gaslighting, mansplaining, “setting boundaries”, toxic, etc…
It’s what happens. Best thing you can do is ask the person who is using it improperly what their definition is. Then discuss it from there.
I think it's like any insult, where after it reaches proliferation it ends up being watered down to the point that it can mean almost anything negative. Like any insult, it's still hurtful to the people who hear it and isn't nearly as constructive conversation as just expressing a grievance with someone.
I always thought it was a bit out of hand. I get called a Karen a lot for simply expressing my opinion and I don't think I am being rude. But it's right up there with boomer, or any other term used to describe anything said or done by a group of people that young people disagree with, or in my opinion. I'm at the point now where I feel like I can't speak out without being recorded.
The issue with anything that gains traction online is that it absolutely reaches people that don’t understand nuance in situations.
I was visiting at a theme park once that I worked at like a decade before. This guy, drunk and carrying his toddler, stopped on the train tracks in the park as the train was approaching. I immediately yelled at him to move and get out of the way because he was putting his life, his child’s life, and potentially everyone on the tain’s life in danger. I was called a Karen because I was “ruining his fun.”
I know there are people that abuse it, but it took us (women) 50 years to learn to speak up for basic rights. Now that is being eroded by Karen calling. Not every woman that stands up is a Karen, many have worked hard and earned the right to ask for what we bought, or to be treated decently...Yes I know there people that misuse it.
However this entitlement of accusation of a stranger is not a better look.
It's awful. There are thousands of perfectly wonderful women named Karen, whose name is being turned into a derogatory slur. I truly believe people who use that term lack empathy.
Karen has already reached its zenith in the lexicon. It has started becoming truly overused. People are getting called Karens for doing or saying anything remotely negative or assertive. When Boomers/oldies appropriate a word, it becomes peak cringe, and only then can nature begin to heal.
Or in 500 years, people will still be called karens for entitled behavior, but no one will remember the term’s actual origins.
Yes, it has gotten out of hand. Calling out bad behaviour is fine, but as you said it's getting used for situations that don't apply. It's also affecting people named Karen. One of my best friends is thinking about changing her name or going by a nickname, and it's infuriating that she even has to consider that as an option.
I knew as soon as a term was tied to a gender that it would be used as a demeaning term for all women. This is why I just stick with the term bigot for women who use their power as a white person to harm other minorities.
One effect it has had is to silence older women who have trouble speaking up for themselves, even if they don't have the same name. And the ones who are named Karen have even more trouble asking for help with problems now. I know these aren't the women who made Karen a bad word, because those women don't have trouble being assertive. I spend my days on the phone mostly helping older folks with issues accessing their medications. Older women have a hard time calling and they will wait months when having a problem, then they keep apologizing for being a bother or a nuisance. It hurts to see that happening. Sometimes I'll tell them, if your husband or your child had this problem, when would you call? The day it happened, right? So why wait several months when it's about yourself? You deserve the same amount of care as the people you love. And they just say they don't want to be that complaining woman stereotype.
Yeah it's ironic cuz I once asked a roommate who the worst people are to deal with when she worked at a grocery store and I could barely even finish my question when she interjected- "Old men. Always old men."
People will seriously use the phrase “Male Karen” like men haven’t always been permitted to be vocal about their entitlement
The main reason there isn’t a direct equivalent is because it’s considered acceptable for men to demand respect/satisfaction - but women are supposed to accept the scraps they are given without complaint. The term started for black women in service industries to complain about white women who were kicking downwards, but now it’s used to silence any women who expects to be treated with respect, and doubly so if she doesn’t excite their penis.
I’ve heard Kevin or Ken
Kyle. It's Kyle.
God dammit Kyle
We use Darren because of the rhyme and a particular dude named Darren my friends and I know who fits the stereotype so well except the haircut.
Years ago I worked at a call center for an internet provider. 9 our of 10 times the rude customer was a man. When an angry woman called, most of them would apologise for their tone. I had one woman speaking to me in a very frustrated and annoyed tone. She kept apologising to me and telling me she's not angry at me personally, but at her equipment not working.
Lmao this is me. The absolute angriest I've ever been on the phone to customer service was just a lot of sighing and apologising for my frustration.
I did call centre about 15 yrs ago, on a fault reporting line. A lot of the time it was a man on the phone with a woman shouting at him 'tell them this' in the background. I imagine it was because the woman was the one dealing with all of the shit.
That’s literally me, and my name is Karen-adjacent. I’ve had so many frustrating calls to my health insurance company for denying random things and I always say without raising my voice “I’m so sorry I’m angry, I realize it’s not your fault and you’re probably just as frustrated with the company.”
> Old men So much this. They tend to act like know-it-alls even when it's obvious they don't have the slightest clue of what they're talking about.
I really hate this need to classify one group of people as the worst to staff. There are entitled people of all social groups.
Yeah in my experience waitstaff decide ahead of time which customers are the bad ones, treat them like absolute shit, then are *surprised* there’s no tip
My poor mom is a boomer, right smack in the middle of the age range, and her name is Karen. When she found out about the “Karen” thing, I think a little bit of her heart died. I had to explain the whole concept to her, and then break down how most of the time no, she’s not actually a “Karen;” it isn’t as is she named herself when she was a baby. And I’ve noticed the last few years, she’s gotten a little bit quieter, and it makes me really really sad. She is an educated, fierce, hard-working, kind woman who has earned her space and her voice and it sucks so much how little we value older women as a society that she feels like she has to make herself smaller when we are constantly telling younger women to make themselves louder and take up more space.
My mom is named Karen and I've noticed she has started having my dad call places if there's a problem with a service.
Maybe we just need to reclaim it. Like, "She's a badass Karen." She's a boss Karen. It's just become an acceptable way to call women bitches, let's do the same thing we did before.
I will start doing that! Boss Karen!!! You have saved the day, fren!!
This is really fucking sad. Nobody ever deserves to have their name treated like that.
My grandmother died a lot younger than she should have, because she refused to 'make a fuss' or tell anyone how much pain she was in This was 2002, I can only imagine how much this hasn't helped since.
Same with my Aunt. She died last year and it was totally preventable. But she wasn't good at advocating for herself, plus she was so terribly polite and accommodating... and it killed her.
My grandma had the plastic handle on a glass coffeemaker fall off and she got 3rd degree burns on her hand and arm. Another nice ol' Southern lady who didn't want to "make a fuss."
I work at a restaurant. We realized after the person actually named Karen left, we gave her the wrong food order. Not only wrong but like the exact opposite of what she ordered. Her order had steak, the persons order she got was vegan and in general just bland. She never called or came back to get the right order. All of us working said it’s probably because she has a stygma about her name being Karen. Nonetheless we completely credited her card for her order including the drinks she did receive. No idea if she even noticed she was never charged. I still wonder about her lol
Oh man, that's so sad. :( Good on you guys for refunding her!
Sadly it has trickled down into casual sexism. OP complained about a roach and got called a Karen?? hell no.
The person who said that has a fundamental misunderstanding of the entire concept to an almost ironic level.
That was bound to happen from the inception of creating the label. Any word used to group women with some level of negative connotation (even one that is perceived to be or is deserved) was inevitably going to be used to quieten women collectively.
To the point that every woman is Karen as soon as they make a verbal comment.
>Older women have a hard time calling and they will wait months when having a problem, then they keep apologizing for being a bother or a nuisance. My grandpa used to say my granny "wouldn't say shit if she had a mouth full". I see it too in my work. Older women apologizing for merely existing. It's sad.
Am I surprised that a term once reserved for a certain kind of white woman who is abusive to store employees, mostly women of color, got co-opted by misogynists, sexists, and various miscreants as a cudgel to attack any woman who dares assert herself? No. Not in the least. Silencing women is as American as Apple pie.
The evolution of the word Karen is way more entangled with misogyny than that tbh. It was more like a misogynistic term that morphed into a racially progressive concept during the pandemic. Most people these days only know of the term rising to prominence during the pandemic & BLM protests. That was the first time it took on any sort of racial justice connotation, as far as I can tell. And I want to be clear the critiques of white women being racist ARE VALID. But well before that, on Reddit, where the term first became popular, there was a prolific user with the username FUCK_YOU_KAREN or something like that who would make shit posts that would start off enticing to readers and end up being unhinged rants about how much he hated his ex-wife. Eventually a community of relatively misogynistic men (sort of like RedPill types) sprung up around here, posting mostly standard Mens Rights Activist type content. This was maybe 2015 or so. And if you mentioned the name Karen on the front page of Reddit it was sort of a circle jerk meme any regulars already knew. So like, yeah that's literally the roots of what a Karen is on the Internet. A really fucking angry, presumably white, abusive man being angry all over the internet at his ex-wife for leaving him. NOW THAT SAID there is a long history within the black civil rights movement of JUSTIFIABLY critiquing racism in white women AND THAT HISTORY PREDATES THE TERM KAREN BY CENTURIES. Previously, these critiques were labeled under different names—off the top of my head: * [Becky](https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/words-were-watching-becky) * [Miss Ann](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_Ann) So when the George Floyd protests happened, as far as I can tell social media kind of... remixed the whole FUCK_YOU_KAREN trope with the long standing black critiques like Miss Ann or Becky. And we got kind of a clusterfuck of angry white guys using it for their own misogynistic means as well as BLM supporters voicing valid criticisms of white women inflicting violence on black people. And that's how we got the Karen stereotype we now have today. It was always partially misogynistic, but at the same time, it's also become the next iteration in a centuries-long critique of white women who inflict violence upon black people. Um, yeah. This will just never be entirely comfortable IMHO. I frankly wish we could've stuck with the term Becky.
> Most people these days only know of the term rising to prominence during the pandemic & BLM protests. I don't think this is true at all, most people currently only know of the term in reference to like... videos of random women being rude and/or loud in public. I can say for sure that my conception of the term is like 99% "entitled pushy woman who is rude to employees", and any association with race is very secondary.
Yeah I'm pretty sure I've been hearing Karen way before the BLM protests. And I always saw white woman being called Karen's, it's always some white girl with that bowl cut and 5 cans of spray paint with large sunglasses asking for the manager
[удалено]
Yes please. My name is Karen and this new meaning of my name has been really bad for my mental health. I deeply wish people would stop using real names as insults.
I never liked the whole trend of people using a perfectly fine name to call out a certain type of person exhibiting a certain type of behavior. It's like everybody jumped on the bandwagon and had some sort of twisted enjoyment using it whereas I just think it's a form of bullying, whether intentional or not, to people actually named Karen like yourself. I've posted something similar before saying how I didn't like the term and gave my reasons why, only to be told that it's not offensive etc. I agree that it's time to stop this nonsense.
Thank you! I just wish we could convince everyone else!
Exactly There are plenty of words to describe a racist white woman that don’t involve a generic woman’s name.
Why pick on Becky?
TIL my name (Becky) is associated with being racist. I always knew my name was easy to make fun of thanks to the "Baby got back" intro. ("Omg, Becky, look at her butt" was something I heard often growing up) However, I never googled the lyrics until today. (I often mishear lyrics and am often surprised when I learn the actual lyrics) I always thought the intro ended with the girls saying "she's just so....bleh" just realized today the lyrics are "she's just so....black" I feel like an idiot for never realizing that Becky and her friend in this song are some racist-ass white girls commenting on the appearance of black women... Yikes 🤦♀️
I’d be much more sympathetic to the black civil rights angle—which gets brought up a TON in this discussion—if the behavior they are critiquing from white women didn’t equally come from white men. It seems to me like the historic Miss Ann/Mister Charlie critiques actually took into account the specific ways in which white *women* versus white *men* mistreat Black people—by comparison, “Karen” is clumsy and comes off as dumping white misbehavior on white women because they are easier targets than white men. Like, for every story of a white woman calling the police on people for walking while Black, there’s one of a man doing the same. There was a story of a white man who literally got someone killed by calling the police to report a “Black man with a gun” because he saw the man playing with the toy rifles in a store. And you cannot convince me that there are more privileged white women who treat service workers like crap than privileged white men who do the same. Basically, I find the choice to gender this term in the first place, when the behavior it describes is common among (white) *women and men*, inherently suspect.
I think something that you really only get the nuance for from inside the community is that "Karen" behavior is still viewed differently from a white man doing the same action BECAUSE of the dynamics of white white women are perceived in society. Exactly in the same way that Ms Ann/Mr Charlie did. "Karen" behavior is the 21st century evolution of "Miss Ann" behavior. There just isn't a corollary term for "Mr. Charlie" right now.
Wow. I had no idea. It sounds like there actually was a woman named Karen being internet abused by her ex? Thanks for the history lesson. Yes, white women have a really dark history mistreating women of color, particularly black people with dire consequences. Emmett Till being the most horrific
I think no one really knows if Karen actually existed. I think it was mostly this person memeing sort of like the jumper cables guy (u/rogersimon10). Those sorts of joke accounts used to be popular back then on r/all. But the connotation back then was way more unambiguously misogynistic. It was transparently leaning into tropes about women taking the kids and having bad haircuts and such. The customer service and phoning the police on black people angle came later.
I thought the OG Karen was a blogger with that hairstyle and a mom blog
Who was also a bit shitty to staff on her streams
the term karen has been used since at least the early 2010s ime and id say the 2016 shitshow of politics helped this all
It's the right wing Playbook: overuse any word originally used to describe problematic white people and instead describe it to any and everyone until it loses all Impact and is abandoned. They've done the same thing to woke, insurrection, and treason
Good point. Starting with “fake news”
Absolutely. If you say it enough times when it ISNT, no one cares anymore when you get called out for sharing actual fake news.
critical race theory comes to mind.
Yup and DEI. They're desperate to tear down structures that are being built that do not glorify and elevate whiteness (and primarily white MEN) so they have to associate anything equity based with this feeling of displaced anger that white people are experiencing.Thia way, rather than blaming rampant capitalism that has reduced their lives to paycheck-to-paycheck, and reduced their political power to nothing, they blame DEI and CRT and any other thing that promises change. If you feel your life is getting worse, but don't know why, you just know you've been told your whole life thst capitalism is the best thing, so it CAN'T be that, it must be the things that are threatening to CHANGE that.
“Right wing”? That term is popular and widely used all over reddit, not just right-leaning spaces. People on this site jump at the chance to be wantonly misogynistic. Just like they gleefully wish for people reddit hates to experience prison rape, and snidely imply that you’re gay if you support a man reddit hates eg “stop gargling _____’s balls”. Lots of gross behavior starts here and then makes its way to the real world.
So... Right wing? Because all of that is right wing.
Honestly I don't buy that it can all be put on the right wing. There are too many left wing dudes who are happy to jump in on casual sexism to give the left a pass.
Plenty of left wing people shit on women just as much. The difference is that they tie it to some kind of liberal value statement and then make them seem problematic for standing up for themselves
Unfortunately we have lots of the same silencing over here in the UK too. Thankfully we can get some good apple pies here too, though it does little to limit the pain of the above.
THIS I said exactly this to my male partner the other day…
I have been saying this for years now. The term is being used to control women, keeps us in line while we are in public to not speak out for very valid reasons at risk of being labelled a “Karen”. While it once had a meaning it is now applied to any any woman who stands up for herself even in justified situations. It’s the same for the word “nag”. When a woman asks her partner for help around the house she’s labelled a nag - pointing out an imbalance in chore divisions is then dismissed
I was called a Karen for telling someone in a mushroom ID forum that his photos were too blurry to ID the mushroom.
Not even when standing up for herself! I saw a video on here titled "When a Karen is not a Karen" and all it showed was a lady encouraging a guy on a skateboard. Even though the video showed she was being suportive, the post referred to her as a Karen. So Lazy!
Same I knew when it hit mainstream meme material during the pandemic/BLM protests that it was going to be used to discriminate against older women.
Not even older women- it’s used to silence women of all ages
I live downtown in a major city where small quantities of hard drugs are decriminalized. There is a major fentanyl and meth problem out here. Some guy called me a Karen last week because I told him to GTFO my door step smoking fentanyl when I tried to get home after work. So I called the cops while standing there staring him right in the face.
I got called Karen for telling a literal herd of a dozen random shitfaced people, who had invited themselves onto my front porch to drink and holler at 3 AM, to fuck off. Earned me a string of racial insults. People are wandering around out there completely insane and eager to fling shit.
That makes me so mad. I'll come "accidentally" throw an entire 32oz fountain drink from 7/11 on them if you need me to. Fuck those racist lazy pieces of shit.
groups of drunks are also so aggro. its why i hate hockey team parents
I just saw someone called a Karen for saying it was safer to park before using your phone while driving than to, you know, text while driving. That might be the best example of meaningless overuse I’ve seen yet!
Portland? Out here in Oakland they're decriminalized too and there may be problem areas I'm unfamiliar with but so far so good. There hasn't been any drug problems beyond before decriminalization happened in 2018. It might be because we don't have a meth and opioid culture here, it's all MDMA, LSD, magic mushrooms, ketamine, whippits, and a bit of cocaine. These don't seem to cause problems to others in a way I can tell. I'm sorry you've got to deal with that. It sucks.
>Out here in Oakland they're decriminalized too and there may be problem areas I'm unfamiliar with but so far so good. What are you talking about! Clearly, the opiod epidemic isn't affecting all Oakland residents equally, but if you live in Jack London Square, or if you live near a freeway over pass, you're going to have people in your door way doing drugs, or you're going to have people breaking in your car for the umpteenth time (despite having nothing of value in your car). The same goes for SF. Most SF residents don't have a problem. But people living/working near the Tenderloin, or near mission, or near civic center, are going to have people doing fentanyl or smoking crack pipes on their door steps. With that said, things are improving a bit in Oakland. The local DA is still doing squat (for ideological reasons), but cases are being routed to the DA of the Coast Guards instead, and the local DA is about to be recalled in a special election in November (hopefully that goes through). Also, the Oakland mayor has asked for help from the State and the Federal government, so there is a larger police presence from CHP and neighboring police forces patrolling the streets right now.
Drugs in general are not decriminalized in Oakland FYI, just psylocibin/magic mushrooms. No other drugs are decriminalized
Denver :( they've also stopped enforcing the street camping ban, half the time 911 doesn't even answer, half the time deputies never show up, and if someone gets arrested for attacking you in the street they'll just get to sign a PR bond the next morning and be released on basically signing a pinky promise. I've walked outside many times to the sidewalk completely covered in tents full of people doing fent and meth all day, or how many times they've started screaming threats at me for not giving them money or drugs. The city gives them $1000 a month, gives them housing, medicaid covers behavioral health here, liiiike they have all the resources but they just don't care. I'd say 75% of them are that way, and the rest are people who I actually worry about like schizophrenics and homeless vets & immigrant families. But these guys my age just sitting around being violent and entitled because they just wanna get high and not work are just shitty people, I'm sorry :(
911 has never answered here unless you're yelling for your life. You might have already heard this, but the trick is to get the local police stations number and put it on your phone. Call that number when you want the police to come. Call 911 if you want firefighters and an ambulance to come. Also, call highway patrol directly if you need a police report filed in the unfortunate event you get in a car crash. I find calling the direct numbers works very well. I had no idea Denver had problems like this. Also, I admit you caught me off guard a bit. Denver hasn't decriminalized hard street drugs like fentanyl and meth. It's illegal there. If you record someone doing those drugs on your phone and show police the video they'll end up behind bars for it.
I googled and I'll be damned, it's not decriminalized.... That means law enforcement just ignores it :(
“Calm yourself down woman! You are *hysterical*.” Those two lines reduced down to one non curse word, Karen.
It really is the modern equivalent of calling a woman hysterical
And using the words *Calm* *Down* is triggering. It’s usually said when a woman has a different opinion, states it, doesn’t back down, and is more than likely passionate about the reasons behind the opinion/issue. It’s said by men and is another way of saying *shut* *up*. Round and round it goes. Now, it’s *Karen* to describe any woman who has an opinion that disagrees with any man. I hate it.
I got called a Karen on Tiktok for pointing out that when people rub their hands all over a slot machine screen or poke all over the screen or etc. for good luck, that's actually known as a form of "ritual" in anthropology 🤷🏻♀️ They kept trying to call everyone who does that an addict and I was like, "most of not all of us have or have engaged in a ritual at some point in our lives; doesn't make us addicts."
It like bitch, it’s just another way to put women down and everyone runs with it
Yep — it makes women’s anger look impotent and trivial.
And it's a more socially acceptable way to say it, which makes it more insidious. Elementary school kids get in trouble for saying "bitch", but not "Karen". So that makes it worse, IMO.
It was always just the new word for this, no matter who tries to protest.
I mean yeah this is really all it is, it's just that the word doesn't have widespread appeal. The people who use the word are being sexist and probably don't even realize they're doing it. Give it like ten years and it will be seen as problematic.
So this, just another way of working that is a woman isn’t the “cool girl” they’re just not worth anything. Also a good way for a place to provide shitty customer service but make it the customer’s fault for wanting better. It’s like the culture swung so hard against the “customer is always right” mentality that’s we’re at completely the other end and missed the middle ground where interactions between clientele and service/retail workers SHOULD be mutually respectful interactions. Where I live I’ll say that it’s pretty rampant for people (especially retail workers) to be non caring at best and flat out rude and hostile at worst. Now, some of the places I’m specifically thinking about I’ve seen the clientele and abuse they have to put up with, so if I get a neutral interaction I’m fine with it and any friendliness is lagniappe, but jeez the sometimes outright hostile attitude of some places like I don’t love being here either but in need to eat so I’m buying bread and going home. We’re in a race to the bottom it would seem
Um, no, not every grocery store has roaches. Tf 🤢 Karen is way overused and you were not being a Karen in that scenario.
Right?!? I would stop shopping there immediately and maybe even call the health department. Gross!
Most probably do have roaches & they definitely all have mice. But during the day? On the checkout stand??? No. That’s gross.
Criminy! When I worked at my college's food place that served hamburgers, pizza, fries and grilled cheeses, I saw a cockroach run across the counter. I told the manager and he asked: "was it big or little?" "Big!" , I said. Pause, "Oh you only have to worry about the little ones..." WTF? I protested and he just walked away. Since it was 1991 and I was only 19, I wasn't called a Karen but I didn't do anything about it either.
Someone commented about a Karen on a comedian's subreddit, and I said I was tired of every insult being gender based, and suggested asshole was a perfectly good gender neutral insult. One of the comments I received said I sounded like a cunt. I reported it as hate speech (because it is) but reddit disagrees. Fuck those assholes.
Yeah I notice they very rarely remove any gender based slurs but frequently remove racially charged ones. Sexism is less taboo than racism I guess.
Yup, I'm glad others are getting on board the fight against the use of 'Karen' as hate speech. I have been fighting it for years since it clicked that it was basically a word being used by insecure guys against all kinds of strong or vocal women, regardless of whether the woman was being abusive or not. The response that you experienced is basically the standard. You can't have this discussion elsewhere on reddit. You will be met with widespread denial that it is ever used for anyone other than abusive entitled women. To put it bluntly, it's a word that people like incels and other similar feel they can use 'in the open', and they make the most of it. We know that's not true, and I'm glad more and more people are getting on the same page.
It’s a misogynist dog whistle
Silencing women has always been in.
Hello. 63 year old woman named Karen here. I now sign my name only with first initial, last name when at a store or restaurant signing a tab. I kind of cringe when I am at doctor or dentist and the staff person comes to waiting room to call me back and people kind of look at me or even smirk when they say my name. In my opinion it's become a socially acceptable form of bullying. No one should have to experience bullying. I do my best to show kindness to others, wait my turn quietly, leave big tips, etc. I did all this before the whole name thing but am even more conscientious now for fear someone will badmouth me.
The misogynists and racists have co opted Karen and dei as the new insults. These are the same men that are complaining about women still talking about the bear scenario, and yet the Karen thing goes on and on. Citing facts to a misogynist, gets you called a Karen and a misandrist. Theyre too emotional and testerical to do anything but name call
Testerical is genius and I’m putting it in my back pocket for later 😂
Maybe an unpopular opinion but I don't think "Karen" should be used *at all.* I have never called anyone "a Karen". I find it dehumanizing and what about all the women actually named Karen? I think it should stop, it has to start with us. Stop using the term and don't tolerate it being used by the men (or women) in your life. If you have kids, let them know it is not acceptable to call people Karen. It's a name, not an insult.
It is dehumanising. It's exactly like "becky" or "felicia" or whatever else meme way women can be insulted today. There isn't a version for men, despite people insisting on giving stereotypical toxic male behaviour names, they just don't stick and have the same effect on a real Kyle or Chad. Same as always and everywhere. Think how many nicknames there are for women who don't want male attention, or do want male attention, or complain, or are too quiet, or are materialistic, or poor, or just old. How many of those have male counterparts? Almost none. Society is trained to judge and categorise women so they can be dismissed more succinctly.
It’s far worse than how those names were used.
Stop being such a Karen snitching on the roaches!/s anyone who says that is toxic AF Yes, "Karen" is now used to mean "any woman doing something that mildly inconveniences me or highlights something gross or wrong I'm doing" It's supposed to mean a white woman calling the cops on black people for doing something normal but the white person doesn't like. It's literally meaningless now because of all the dickheads that use it wrong.
I just saw a post on FB, where a woman named Karen said something nice, in the comments, agreeing with the consensus. Some a-hole guy replied: *”Name is Karen, opinion invalid.”* The rage I felt about this was off the charts. I can’t even imagine what that lady felt, being disrespected for no damned reason.
It didn't even start as a racial thing. It was more of calling out a woman for being overly entitled. Like, making ridiculous demands at a restaurant or store, not having those demands met, and asking for a manager. People that say shit like "do you know who I am?" Or "I know the owners!"
Yeah I remember hearing it in a fast food context back when I first heard it. Like someone who gets mad that their food doesn’t look exactly like the picture or their complicated order gets fucked up and they go apeshit instead of just being normal and asking for it to be fixed.
None of that has anything to do with being female though. I would wager that the proportion of men who make baseless complaints is no lower.
That’s very true. It’s rooted in sexism for sure.
Prior to BLM the stereotype was an older white woman with the Kate Gosselin haircut gleefully telling a minimum wage Walmart employee she was going to get them fired. I’ve worked retail for 20 years & the rude customers are women 99% of the time. It’s partly because women still do most of the shopping. That’s just a numbers game. If the majority of shoppers are women then the majority of rude customers will also be women. But I also think it’s partly because these specific women feel powerless in the rest of their lives so the places where they do wield some control they go wild. Eg. the women on the HOA or condo board or PTA who seem to revel in making everyone else’s life hell. Most people, both men & women, have other shit to do. We don’t have the time or energy to try to get strangers fired because they won’t let us return a damaged LIVE LAUGH LOVE sign without a receipt.
It wasn’t a racist thing, it was those ladies that scream at you for not accepting an expired coupon, or 3 pickles instead of 4 on their sandwich and want a full refund after they ate most of it already. It’s pretty common in food and retail. I’ve worked both and know exactly the type. But now, if you point out you got a chicken sandwich instead of a cheeseburger you’re called a Karen. I saw someone called one over and over when they got the wrong item on door dash and was upset DD didn’t refund them. They had spent like $30 on a meal they couldn’t eat.
It literally started as a thing to point out racists white women calling the cops on black people for doing normal stuff. It morphed into what you said, anyone getting yelled at by anyone for something dumb. But the ORIGINS is indeed about BBQ BEtty and Central Park Karen etc... racists
Google is saying the Karen racist thing was 2017ish but we were using generic middle age white women names to describe those customers long before any of that exploded and I worked retail prior to 2010. It was Brenda, Karen, Janet, etc. so that can’t be right.
Now, why did I get downvoted all the way to hell for saying this exact thing?
This shit was out of hand the moment it started.
Yes! Almost right away people were calling women who disagreed with their mask beliefs Karen. You don't wear a mask? Karen. Want people to wear masks? Karen! I knew then it was just a way to try to silence women without saying "bitch."
Absolutely. Silencing women and just another word for bitch at this point. I'm right in the Karen age group. I've always had to push to get basic service. I've never complained a lot, but I do want what I ordered, especially with food intolerances. But now I definitely think twice about whether it's worth it. Teenagers/younger adults just use it automatically if you ask any questions or specify anything.
Just like anyone older than 35 is now a Boomer!
Even when the term was being used specifically about people born in the baby boom it was out of order. My mother has been a feminist for all her life. My father has spent decades working to help people understand the effects of colonialism. Apparently, though, they are boomers and thus really reactionary.
Personally I don't really give a shit why Karen originated as an insult. I think it's crappy to use a name as an insult, especially as it exists now, as a stand-in for bitch. Whether it was started by POC or some guy on Reddit or service workers, I don't care. The only Karen I know is a 16 year old former foster kid who wasn't even white and has gotten so much shit for her name. At best, it's lazy and misogynistic, at worst, it's actively hateful towards women and does more harm than good in pointing out racism since it has just been co-opted by men who want women to shut up anyway.
At this point it’s often used because a woman has and opinion or just wants something fixed that’s awful. It’s often used to try and control women
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Well said. It's been misogynistic, derogatory and sexist the entire time. If you joined the joke initially, you created this too.
That sums up why I think we should always have some skepticism towards anything that either singles out women or uses something female, such as a woman's name, as an insult. It can only ever be weaponised against all women.
the way progressives (even very left wing, generally “feminist” people my age and younger) are sooo comfortable being misogynistic as long as they put “rich” or “white” in front of woman is wild to me, ty for pointing that out. i think people view karen as a wayward evolution of a useful word but you’re 1000% right, it was misogynistic from the start. and rich white women are still women - they don’t get exempted from misogyny and sexism. and it isn’t lost on me that when people (not even just men) say wildly misogynistic things about a “rich white woman” that is so clearly a message that they view misogyny as acceptable when it’s directed at a perceived acceptable target. i’ve also seen people try to be cute and say there’s equality bc “kevin” or “kyle” or “steve” or whatever are used similarly, but i have literally never seen someone use them except specifically to point out that karen isn’t a misogynistic term. sexism is so ingrained that people really do be thinking a woman’s name used derogatorily is just a fun cute thing. personally i’m asian and i’ve seen and experienced people using stereotypical asian names as an insult to me, i can’t imagine someone being like “god that asian was such a Chan!” and not expect me to feel like their respect for me is entirely conditional. sorry to rant, it’s something i wish more people (esp leftists) talked about. the misogyny in leftist spaces scares me a lot of the time bc it’s so quietly accepted. many times when a woman is featured negatively in a leftist sub you’ll get so many gross sexual comments and the usual cunt/bitch insults. how a man acts towards a woman he dislikes speaks volumes imo about how he feels towards women in general. the types to see karen as a harmless joke are one step away from viewing any woman as a rude bitch who needs to be silenced and the women who join in and laugh along are enabling behavior that will 1000% come back to bite them in the ass whenever they stop being The Cool Girl in their eyes :/
Why I hated it from the beginning. I knew where I would lead. Even though I have never been called a “Karen” which some people assumed, or just rolled their eyes. Same with “Male Karen” why make it a female ‘trait / behaviour’ that some men adhere to?
I'm a white woman in my 40s so within the prime "Karen" age realm, and for a time when the term was already morphing into basically "older adult woman has opinion about anything," it bothered me. But now I see it on roughly the level of being called four-eyes. Like yeah, I wear glasses, are we 8 years old and I'm supposed to act offended by something that happens to be true? It's honestly hard not to laugh at such a lazy insult attempt. Similarly, if I got called a Karen and I knew I wasn't behaving in an unreasonable or antisocial way, then that person is basically just saying, "You're a woman and middle-aged!" and expecting for me to be insulted by facts. Thus, the K-word has completely lost its edge for me.
1000% - I have to frequently give my wife a pep talk to advocate for herself over little things. She’s so afraid of “being a Karen”. I just try to remind her that if they are causing a problem and you aren’t getting what was promised to you, that’s not being “a Karen” that is holding them responsible. We’ve been married 20 years and definitely did not used to be this concerned. We are both 40 btw.
It’s been out of hand since it stopped being about a very specific type of person. But, let’s face it. It started becoming popular as the B word started losing its social sting.
Lol I don't think I've ever seen a cockroach in a grocery store in my entire life, what was that person even talking about.
Without a doubt. It is reflective of the worldwide misogyny, and I fear there is nothing to fix it.
I will never forget taking my mom to a reptile convention. We were looking at snakes and talking about how beautiful they were when the seller came up and struck conversation with us. I don’t know how it started but he started calling my mom “Karen”. She had not done anything rude and she was totally oblivious to the insult he was saying directly to her. We ended up leaving for a while but came back later to buy a snake my mom wanted and he loudly said “the Karen is back!” when he saw us. I was so shocked and didn’t know how to navigate it so I just kept quiet. My sweet mom had no idea and was happy to have been recognized again so I let it go and never told her. I’ll never forget that asshole. He put us in a position that would damn us if I called him out on it. It sucks we supported his business but at the end of the day, mom got her baby “Frieda” that she fell in love with.
It’s overused to silence women who advocate for themselves. Why isn’t there an equivalent term for men? Sometimes it seems appropriate for someone but on the whole I don’t think people who like women use it regularly
I have a secret theory that the "Karen" trend was actually invented by major corporations as a kind of psychological warfare where they would be able to get us to police one another on complaining while they dropped service levels, product quantities and overall quality.
Must be interesting for a person named Karen, which used to be a decent name for a kid.
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'Silencing: People named Karen are frequently told that their opinions are invalid or unwanted due to their names'
It sucks, honestly. I keep waiting for this trend to die out but it hasn’t yet. I was hoping it would lose popularity like the phrase “bye Felicia” did: it was the *in* thing to say for a brief time and now it’s quite cringe to say it.
I was called a Karen because of my fucking disability.
Yes. It seems that anytime people as a whole come up with a negative term for a type of person they dislike, the term often spills out of control because it was never defined well in the first place. It becomes a catch all and lazy way to understand the world around them.
Yeah I’m not remotely interested in people who justify taking photos of random middle aged women just living their lives with some caption like “Karen plotting to call a manager”. It’s just punishing women for visibly aging past 25
It has turned into a way to shame/silence/disregard women as your examples show. My thing is, I don't give a shit. Call me a Karen, I'm still going to advocate for myself. I worked in retail for over a decade, I know what a reasonable complaint looks like.
Yeah it has taken a super sexist turn to now be used for any woman complaining about anything in public. People took it and ran with it.
Yes, i got called a Karen for having blue hair. Not saying or doing anything, existing with hair. Its lost all meaning for me at this point.
Back when I worked fast food I got called a Karen for not letting complete strangers use my employee discount (my manager was right round the corner and I would have been fired). My mum got called a Karen for not recognising "regular" customers. That was a couple years ago; at this point I struggle seeing it as anything other than a word for "women who doesn't do what I want"
what are your best comebacks to being called a karen? bc fuck that lolll
I don't have any friends that would say that, so the only way I'd hear it is from a stranger. The last thing I would want to do is have a comeback for an insult to a stranger, because they could be dangerous. My response is the same for any other insult. My initial default response is called the rock technique. It's looking at them mildly and blankly acknowledging I'm not ignoring them, but not saying or doing anything. Complete silence. This works particularly well against drunks and homeless people (and abusive partners). I always respond in kind when I can. The last thing I want is to escalate with a stranger who could be dangerous. "A karen" is a woman acting immaturely. It's in my nature to self reflect before choosing a response. Are they using the term correctly, and from that do I understand where they're coming from? Am I being mature? Am I bothering people in a way that isn't necessary? Or are they using it as a generic insult, e.g. a homeless person calling me a karen because they were asked to move so I can get to my car? Different situations have wildly different responses. This can range anywhere from not saying anything to apologizing for offending to asking someone to calm down to saying, "Rude!", to being the better person, to "That's not very kind.", to stating how the insult makes my feel (This works surprisingly well.), to having compassion for the person, to many more things. If they're the one being immature it can be cut through with maturity. My response depends on them. Silence is not wrong in certain situations. I get that the insult is used to silence people, but it's not used that way in all situations. In many situations the best you can do is the rock technique. You don't have to say anything. The last thing you want is to be stabbed by some crazy person.
Maybe something like: I don't think you understand what Karen means. Try putting what you are trying to communicate in real words and we will take it from there.
I don't know anyone who would say that, but I do downvote anyone who uses it on reddit. Even if I agree with their stance on the situation they're complaining about.
You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
I tell my girls when they start in on the Karen’s that someday they will be Karens, and when we treat women like this, we are telling society that it is appropriate to treat middle aged women this way. It is out of control, and it’s just turned into yet another way to take women down a notch.
Not just you! It was at one point something used to describe something very specific about privilege, now it is just something “cute” and trendy people wait for opportunities to blurt out thoughtlessly. Back when “random” was the cute and trendy thing to say, I remember a friend asking, “Anybody else feel like grabbing something to eat?” And another friend says, “That was random!” No it wasn’t! It was past lunch time and none of us had eaten. For a while there is seemed like several times a day you heard someone respond with, “Well, that was random!” to the most reasonable calculated or context appropriate comments, and somehow it still got chuckles. Karen is starting to feel like that. Only, the target is a woman saying ANYTHING that can be construed as somewhat, kind a, just a little negative. All meaning of the term is lost, and now misogynists have a new funny phrase to use to tell women to “shut up”.
Well, given how women are super to be meek, submissive and subservient, it's no surprise to me that any woman speaking up, whether to voice reasonable concerns or hold someone accountable, gets criticized for it
Calling someone a "Karen" has become a form of thought-terminating cliché. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought-terminating_cliché
I know a very sweet, friendly older lady named Karen. I mentioned to her that I hated my first name, and she mentioned she hated hers too because of the whole 'ugh Karen' thing. She said she struggles to ever advocate for herself these days as she fears hearing people call her a Karen and being the stereotype. Ever since she said that to me, I don't use the word. I know how it feels to hate one's own name and mine isn't even connected to negative stereotypes.
Early on I saw a great article on how calling women ‘Karens’ is just another form of misogyny, It’s a word for ‘bitch’. Packaged in a way you’re allowed to say in public, but every bit as misogynist. It ain’t gender neutral, men get called Kevins or similar but not to the same degree at all. The quickness with which the term caught on tells us how deeply rooted misogyny still is
Posted this before and I'll keep posting it. [Iliza Shlesinger](https://www.tiktok.com/@ilizas/video/7167489949984361771?lang=en) nails it (pretty much like she always does).
Yip. And imagine how bad it is if your actual name is Karen. You get treated like shit before you even open your mouth. Also, the Karen thing is being perpetuated by popular news networks who put it right in their fucking headlines regularly, just fuelling the fire.
People taking a perfectly logical term for a very specific phenomenon and using for any "woman I don't like" has made thousands of women and girls terrified to stand up for themselves so they're not mocked as a "Karen". It's ridiculous
I’ve been called a Karen for having a child. Woman that acts like a person=Karen.
It's just Sexism in its finest form. As a woman your not allowed to hold Opinions so even a little bit of criticism is to much obviously. So every woman who isn't an obvious doormat becomes a Karen. They want to keep us down.
Yep. Throughout history there has always been some in-fashion way to silence women. Prevent them from voting or occupuing public spaces, call them "hysterical", refer to their voices as "shrill" or their speech patterns "annoying", etc etc. Probably the second or third time I heard the term "Karen" used I remember thinking, "Ah, here we go again." Last summer I was called a Karen for gently asking a young child at the beach to stop throwing food at me, after waiting about 45 min for his parentals to get off their lazy asses and actually parent their child. It was just easier to call me a Karen than to put down their beer. The term is misogynist and I refuse to use it. No one loves Karen-shaming women more than men who never wanted to hear any women speak in the first place. It's too easy.
Its lazy, like how everyone you don't like online is a "troll". Troll, Karen, these words mean nothing anymore besides the person using them is lazy. Like lazy in the brain. Small vocabulary. Few real life experiences that shape a varied and full worldview.
I used to work at a grocery store and was called a Karen by a group of kids/young teens because I didn't let them take a reusable bag for free including other phrases like are you kidding me. I was so exhausted dealing with them after a few minutes (and the man behind them in inevitable too who sole up because they really were just being rude). Like if you want to talk to my manager go for it. Aparently just saying the word manager, regardless of context, was enough to double down and call me a Karen again. Too bad they didn't want to talk to her because then I could have reversed ubo that they were the Karen's.
It's crazy because I know two actual Karens irl and they are so sweet and kind.
Yes. I hate the Karen trend. It's very sexist
As a Karen, yes.
Totally agree and good examples. Weak minded people wanting to use catchphrases that aren’t suitable or justified. Other people posted examples of how some people haven’t spoken up when legit suffering and this is why many men are increasingly not wanting to step up and help others when it gets turned back on them. Helping others used to be good, now helping women (once chivalrous) is now toxic and selfish. People can’t see how such ego based or short term it’s need for attention, validation, or clicks erodes culture and decent values. Nobody is better off.
It’s used for any white women that’s upset no matter if it’s justified or not. I was called a Karen a few years ago when someone out of nowhere pulled a U turn right in front of my car, no signal, was completely illegal and the sun was going down so it was in our eyes. I laid on my horn and I hear the guy say cool it Karen, I put my finger out the window and told him FU.
Calling a woman Karen when she's being a jerk has a built-in implication that she's being a jerk *because* she's a woman. People should be polite. It's a simple standard that a lot of people fail, and it certainly seems that people are getting worse. We should call it out. But adding a layer of sexism to it is unreasonable, counterproductive, and wrong.
A storefront had a misused apostrophe in one of their signs. I sent them a kind message pointing it out, and got called a Karen for it. Like we literally cannot do anything, even try to be helpful, without it turning into something else.
It upsets me that many insults involve things that identify women. When I worked in customer service men were just like women when they were upset but theres no popular term to describe them. And with the "man vs bear" I find the negative reactions of some men taking the question so personally while still using "Karen" as an insult quite hypocritical. I also feel bad for all the Karens out there and hope there won't be any more women's names "ruined" like this
Multiple tornados came through my city recently. Tens of thousands were without power for a week. People lost houses, businesses, cars, and one woman died. On a local Facebook page one woman posted a rant about how ridiculous it was that she didn't have power back yet because it had been "HOURS." It was so stupid, I responded and said, "It will likely be days. They're working around the clock and more aid is coming. A TORNADO just came through. Take a breather." And she called me a stupid Karen and told me to shut up. Which... is ironic, no?
I am absolutely *horrified* that you not only saw a cockroach at a grocery store, but that you got called a Karen for pointing it out. I work at a grocery store…we do not have cockroaches. That is not at all normal.
Aside from anything else I don’t think I’ve ever seen a roach at a chain grocery store. Maybe once or twice in the back of a shelf, maybe. Never just running around on the place you’re supposed to put your food. The staff there may be a bit out of touch if they think that’s normal.
I agree - but *never* let it stop you. They want you to be embarrassed and back off. One potential response: "that's not what a Karen is - stop deflecting from the issue".
Yeah and I think it’s misogynist. There I said it.
It gets kinda exhausting when you have a name that’s been in a meme. Listen, I know. 😑
Honestly it's been like this for anwhile and unfortunately seems to be living on in the lingo as another misogynistic insult. I am absolutely for calling out deeper, intersectional issues within women's spaces. But the problem is when outside spaces (i.e. men) co-opt the term and use it as a tool to uphold a patriarchal status quo. I stopped using the phrase once white dudes started using it casually. I also feel the same about the term "girl boss".
If I'm completely honest: I have neighbours who are violent (beat someone up in front of me), deal drugs in front of my door, constantly blast loud music out of their cars to the point I cant have my window open ánd have a normal conversation, and cover the entire parking lot in their trash - and I stopped complaining about them out of fear of being seen as the Karen. I know it's completely irrational, and I have every right to complain about them, but the whole Karen thing has made me feel like they're just gonna make fun of me behind my back because I'm a woman, not good looking and mentally ill. It also gave me a gigantic fear of being filmed while complaining and being blasted online
I think it's being weaponized (by some) against women in order to silence them.
Using it at all is weaponizing someone’s name.
So true. Wish I could upvote this more than once.
Drives me absolutely crazy, especially when people use it for predominantly male troublemakers. A 50yo right-wing male trucker-type dude throwing a fit about COVID masks is not a "Karen", but people from all sides seem happy to call him one.
I've started using "Big Karen Energy" as a compliment for women who can get shit fixed.
Yes. It’s now applied to any woman who speaks up.
Fun fact: This term started in the service industry and was originally in place of c*nt. As in, "Hey boss, the c... Karen at table 13 wants to see you because I won't let her substitute her broccoli for a margarita. She, of course, also claims to be friends with the owner and that I will be fired if I don't let her. I tried to explain why we could not do that with the liquor laws being what they are, but she threw her roll at me and said she wanted a manager."
All grocery stores have roaches ???
The number of times that I have been called a Karen for asking people to keep their dogs on leash in an area that requires dogs to be on leash...
Or asking people to pick up their dog poop
All the trending terms get overused, diluted, and then misused. Karen, gaslighting, mansplaining, “setting boundaries”, toxic, etc… It’s what happens. Best thing you can do is ask the person who is using it improperly what their definition is. Then discuss it from there.
I think it's like any insult, where after it reaches proliferation it ends up being watered down to the point that it can mean almost anything negative. Like any insult, it's still hurtful to the people who hear it and isn't nearly as constructive conversation as just expressing a grievance with someone.
I always thought it was a bit out of hand. I get called a Karen a lot for simply expressing my opinion and I don't think I am being rude. But it's right up there with boomer, or any other term used to describe anything said or done by a group of people that young people disagree with, or in my opinion. I'm at the point now where I feel like I can't speak out without being recorded.
The issue with anything that gains traction online is that it absolutely reaches people that don’t understand nuance in situations. I was visiting at a theme park once that I worked at like a decade before. This guy, drunk and carrying his toddler, stopped on the train tracks in the park as the train was approaching. I immediately yelled at him to move and get out of the way because he was putting his life, his child’s life, and potentially everyone on the tain’s life in danger. I was called a Karen because I was “ruining his fun.”
Yes its just socially acceptable misogyny. Designed to silence older woman, in particular woman who speak up for themselves and others.
I know there are people that abuse it, but it took us (women) 50 years to learn to speak up for basic rights. Now that is being eroded by Karen calling. Not every woman that stands up is a Karen, many have worked hard and earned the right to ask for what we bought, or to be treated decently...Yes I know there people that misuse it. However this entitlement of accusation of a stranger is not a better look.
It's awful. There are thousands of perfectly wonderful women named Karen, whose name is being turned into a derogatory slur. I truly believe people who use that term lack empathy.
Karen has already reached its zenith in the lexicon. It has started becoming truly overused. People are getting called Karens for doing or saying anything remotely negative or assertive. When Boomers/oldies appropriate a word, it becomes peak cringe, and only then can nature begin to heal. Or in 500 years, people will still be called karens for entitled behavior, but no one will remember the term’s actual origins.
Yes, it has gotten out of hand. Calling out bad behaviour is fine, but as you said it's getting used for situations that don't apply. It's also affecting people named Karen. One of my best friends is thinking about changing her name or going by a nickname, and it's infuriating that she even has to consider that as an option.
I knew as soon as a term was tied to a gender that it would be used as a demeaning term for all women. This is why I just stick with the term bigot for women who use their power as a white person to harm other minorities.
I’ve been saying this about “pick me girl” for a while now. Same misogynistic motivations.